In Defense of a Kind God

TWD39
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In Defense of a Kind God

I've noticed that atheists tend to be a glass half empty person when it comes to discussions on God.  They put extreme focus on the negative, declaring God to be a brute, unjust, unloving, unmeriful Creator as it this perspective somehow validates the notion that God is a man-made construct.

 

I'm here to tilt things back a bit in the other directions.  Over the weekend, I was reminded on just how GOOD God is when reflecting on the gifts of God.  God has given us quite a lot to make it through this life without being completely miserable.   

 

Here are a few in no particular order:

 

1. Gift of Sleep -  Sleep is a wonderful invention.  Not only does it allow our bodies to recharge and renew energies,  sleep gives us an opportunity to shut off from the world.   No matter how tough my life is, I can always look forward to 6-8 hours a night escaping from reality. 

 

2.  Laughter -  God gave us this ability to have a physical release called laughter that for a moment, brings happiness and joy.  Science can only explain the mechanism behind the act.  There are well documented medical benefits to having a good laugh as well. 

 

3.  Taste buds -  we have up to 8,000 taste buds designed to give us sensations of pleasure with certain tastes.  God certainly didn't have to do this.   Taste of food is not necessary to substain the human body.  Taste doesn't matter to the digestive system.  But we have taste to enjoy a wide variety of foods.

 

4.  Sex -  I don't think anyone will argue with this one.  Sex is an amazing creation.  Our society is obsessed with it.   On a physical level, sex offers many benefits such as stress reduction and lower blood pressure.   It also serves to bring an emotional bond to a couple on a level that can't be experienced any other way.    However, whenevery you mess around with this powerful force outside God's requirements then the act has several consequences.  Spread of STDS, for example.

 

Yeah, there are many negatives to this existence.  I believe the introduction of sin is the root of these negatives, but God also gave us these gifts to help us make it through each day.  Whenever I think about the gifts, I realize just how ridiculous the belief in evolution really is.  We would have to be extremely lucky for random events to give us such great things to enjoy.  Evolution may have determined the need for a food source, but not the need for taste buds. 


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TWD39 wrote:harleysportster

TWD39 wrote:

harleysportster wrote:

[Can you prove that a god "gave" us any of those things and are not a product of evolution ? 

 

I fail to see how laughter, sex, sleep and taste buds proves a god and not an emergent property of biological evolution. 

  

 

What purpose does laughter and taste buds serve in the evolutionary process?  They are not necessary features for survival.   They serve no biological function whatsoever.   If humans are animals, why don't we operate on animal instict like every other freaking species? 

 

The fact that every single human being that has ever lived has been an unique person with appearance and personality tells me that humans had a creator.

Why are we bringing this part back up ? 

What about the statements I made in my last post ? 

I would LOVE to believe in something supernatural and beyond this life. I would LOVE to believe that my late father, grandfather, first cousin, several of my biker bros, and someone that was very dear to me is living in some better place. But I see no EVIDENCE. E - V - I -D - E -N C -E . EVIDENCE that any of this is happening. 

BUT. I would hate to think that the people that I dearly loved, were in some sort of ETERNAL HELL. Because they did not follow the " proper" scripture. I would hate such a god that would do that if it existed. But there is no EVIDENCE of any of these claims that you keep making. 

Proof or evidence PLEASE. This is going absolutely nowhere but in circles. 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Yeah, TWD39 is an

Yeah, TWD39 is an incompetent troll at best, I'm done with this farce of a debate. It is clear that he is not even trying.

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harleysportster wrote:TWD39

harleysportster wrote:

TWD39 wrote:

harleysportster wrote:

[Can you prove that a god "gave" us any of those things and are not a product of evolution ? 

 

I fail to see how laughter, sex, sleep and taste buds proves a god and not an emergent property of biological evolution. 

  

 

What purpose does laughter and taste buds serve in the evolutionary process?  They are not necessary features for survival.   They serve no biological function whatsoever.   If humans are animals, why don't we operate on animal instict like every other freaking species? 

 

The fact that every single human being that has ever lived has been an unique person with appearance and personality tells me that humans had a creator.

Why are we bringing this part back up ? 

What about the statements I made in my last post ? 

I would LOVE to believe in something supernatural and beyond this life. I would LOVE to believe that my late father, grandfather, first cousin, several of my biker bros, and someone that was very dear to me is living in some better place. But I see no EVIDENCE. E - V - I -D - E -N C -E . EVIDENCE that any of this is happening. 

BUT. I would hate to think that the people that I dearly loved, were in some sort of ETERNAL HELL. Because they did not follow the " proper" scripture. I would hate such a god that would do that if it existed. But there is no EVIDENCE of any of these claims that you keep making. 

Proof or evidence PLEASE. This is going absolutely nowhere but in circles. 

 

You need to at least define what qualifies as acceptable evidence.  If you want me to prove God to you via the scientific method, it ain't going to work.  Your trying to apply a methdology created from flawed man to analyze a spiritual reality through physical means.  It's not going to happen. 

 

How about evidence that the Bible is divine, and not a book of myths?  Proof - The prophesies foretelling the future of Israel have all come true. 

Israel was scatted to many nations - Hosea 9:17

 

Then brought back together as a nation in the 1940s - Ezekiel 37:21, Isaiah 11:11,12

Israel would become an agricultural nation and feed the world - Isaiah 26:6

 

From wiki:

 

Agriculture in Israel is a highly developed industry: Israel is a major exporter of fresh produce and a world-leader in agricultural technologies despite the fact that the geography of Israel is not naturally conducive to agriculture.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_israel

 

The nation would even be reborn in a day - Isaiah 66:8

 

Now you can not say there is ZERO evidence supporting Christianity.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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harleysportster wrote:The

harleysportster wrote:

The bible is replete with stories of incest and bestiality. 

Atheists can't admit that the Bible has good life teachings ? Is that what you just said ? 

Hmm, Noah's Ark ( god drowned the whole world) Abraham and Issac ( god TESTS Abraham to see if he would kill his son for him or not, then backs off and says " Just kidding, go murder that lamb instead." Jacob and Esau ( it's ok to cheat and lie to get a brithright). Slaughtering all Egyptian firstborn, that was a real nice bedtime story for children. So much better than the 3 little bears. 

Moses committing mass murder, and okaying rape and pillaging throughout Deuteronomy. Setting about all sorts of inhumane laws in Leviticus. 

Need I go on ? 

Would you like for me to touch upon the New Testament as well ? 

 

Actually the violence in the Bible only serves to proof that it is true.  It tells the recorded history as it really happened, man in all his ugly sinful glory.  Just about every great man of God is shown as flawed and sinful as well.  If the Bible only presented beautiful positive stories then you atheists would be throwing that up as an example of hiding the truth.

It's funny that atheists are so fevorant in their defense of the Amalekites, a group of ppl who actually burned children in sacrifice.  If God was merciful to this evil race of humans then you would be griping that God allows evil to exist.  God just can't win with atheists. sigh

 


 

 


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Beyond Saving wrote:And if

Beyond Saving wrote:

And if you are in a committed relationship with someone who has an STD? Or should people with permanent STD's simply be expected to live their lives without a physical relationship? Believe it or not, there are people who knowingly enter relationships where one person has an STD and the other does not. Your ignorance and close mindedness is astonishing. 

 

Umm, if the two people in the relationship are virgins, exactly how would one of them have a STD? lol  And I'm the ignorant one?


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TWD39 wrote:Beyond Saving

TWD39 wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

 

And if you are in a committed relationship with someone who has an STD? Or should people with permanent STD's simply be expected to live their lives without a physical relationship? Believe it or not, there are people who knowingly enter relationships where one person has an STD and the other does not. Your ignorance and close mindedness is astonishing. 

 

Umm, if the two people in the relationship are virgins, exactly how would one of them have a STD? lol  And I'm the ignorant one?

You do know that in this great place called reality (maybe you've heard of it?) most people aren't a virgin by the time they get married or have a serious relaitionship right?

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ThunderJones wrote:TWD39

ThunderJones wrote:

TWD39 wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

 

And if you are in a committed relationship with someone who has an STD? Or should people with permanent STD's simply be expected to live their lives without a physical relationship? Believe it or not, there are people who knowingly enter relationships where one person has an STD and the other does not. Your ignorance and close mindedness is astonishing. 

 

Umm, if the two people in the relationship are virgins, exactly how would one of them have a STD? lol  And I'm the ignorant one?

You do know that in this great place called reality (maybe you've heard of it?) most people aren't a virgin by the time they get married or have a serious relaitionship right?

 

And your point is?  My point is that if everyone obeyed God's laws on sex, you wouldn't have STDS.   My point isn't invalidated whether or not people actually obey the laws.


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People would still give each

People would still give each other STDs because they're transmitted sexually but not only transmissible sexually.

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


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TWD39 wrote:What

TWD39 wrote:
What arguments?

The arguments made in post #49, on the first page.

TWD39 wrote:

You mean the brilliant claims that sleep sucks and sex is flawed? lol 

Amongst others. Yet more mockery. Please continue to refuse to respond and mock me instead. It shows you for the hypocrite you are, and continuously proves your original argument is completely absurd. Smiling

TWD39 wrote:
Apparently, you must have never been sick a day in your life.

Very rarely. But that just brings up another flaw with creation: why disease? And why are some susceptible when others are not? Your religion doesn't have an answer. Science does. And the fact we can cure and treat as many diseases as we can is directly tied to the fact of evolution. If evolution were false, the way we use medicine would be as ineffective as the medical arts of a thousand years ago.

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TWD39 wrote:Frankly, I am

TWD39 wrote:
Frankly, I am quite thankful for sleep whenever I am sick or in times of pain.  It's wonderful to be able to mentally check out while my body heals.

I'd love to hear you say that after an animal tore out your throat while you were sleeping and couldn't defend yourself, but...

TWD39 wrote:
As for sex, when performed in accordance to scripture, it has numerous physical, mental and spiritual benefits.  I sure don't see the flaws there. 

And yet the organs used for sex double as waste disposal, increasing the risk of contamination.

Not to mention STD's.

Just because it can be beneficial does not mean it is perfect.

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TWD39 wrote: Your trying to

TWD39 wrote:
Your trying to apply a methdology created from flawed man to analyze a spiritual reality through physical means.  It's not going to happen.

Irony bonus point deduction. Your religion was also created by man. But you don't know how circular logic works, so you don't see that you can't use the bible to prove the bible.

Re: prophecies
Israel does not feed the world. Dozens of nation's provide more food to the world at large than Israel.
Israel was never reassembled. The jews are still scattered, and Israel itself is not wholly a jewish state. Plenty of moslems, christians, and atheists reside in Israel.
Furthermore, no empire or nation or even a tribe has survived forever. They all fall. Predicting the fall of a nation is hardly proof the bible is true.

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TWD39 wrote:My point is that

TWD39 wrote:
My point is that if everyone obeyed God's laws on sex, you wouldn't have STDS.   My point isn't invalidated whether or not people actually obey the laws.

A ridiculous and unprovable assertion. This just gets more and more hilarious as time goes on.

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Oh boy an attempt at a point!

TWD39 wrote:

You need to at least define what qualifies as acceptable evidence.  If you want me to prove God to you via the scientific method, it ain't going to work.

Yeah, it probably won't the scientific method is notoriously bad for proving falsehoods but you are welcome to try.

 

TWD39 wrote:

How about evidence that the Bible is divine, and not a book of myths?  Proof - The prophesies foretelling the future of Israel have all come true. 

This will be good, yes let us look at these great prophesies.

 

TWD39 wrote:

Israel was scatted to many nations - Hosea 9:17 

 

prophecy wrote:

My God will reject them because they have not obeyed him; they will be wanderers among the nations.

In the future do me the favor of posting the actual words so I don't have to google it, thanks. 

So the Jews will be spread and wander many nations. Ok, sure, Jews are pretty much everywhere now. Of course, you could say the same about most every people from nations 2000 years ago. Replace Israel with Gaul, Viking, Thracian, Anglo, Saxon, Aryan, Kenyan, Chinese, Vietnamese, Arabian, Swedish or any other nationality/ethnicity you want to choose and this prediction is true. The world has gotten smaller and people are far more intermixed than they were 2000 years ago, it is called modern transportation. But ok, maybe the bible didn't see a reason to talk about all the other peoples that would become wanderers among the nations because the Jews hold the dubious honor of being gods "chosen people" (a distinction that has led to the pain, suffering and death of many perfectly nice Jews)

 

TWD39 wrote:

Then brought back together as a nation in the 1940s - Ezekiel 37:21, Isaiah 11:11,12

Yet it is quite clear that the children of Israel are still spread out among the heathen. If your interpretation of the first part is correct that they are wandering the many nations... well they still are. In the nation we know as Israel only 5.9 million people are jewish  http://www.cbs.gov.il/www/yarhon/b1_e.htm 

Whereas there is an estimate 6.4 million Jews in the US alone http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/cats/population.html so, not even half of the Jews were brought back together. Scratch that prophecy up as a fail or at least not achieved yet (and unlikely to ever happen). 

 

 

TWD39 wrote:

Israel would become an agricultural nation and feed the world - Isaiah 26:6

 

From wiki:

 

Agriculture in Israel is a highly developed industry: Israel is a major exporter of fresh produce and a world-leader in agricultural technologies despite the fact that the geography of Israel is not naturally conducive to agriculture.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_israel

Lol, read your own link dumb ass. 

from your own damn link wrote:

Only 20% of the land area is naturally arable.[1] Today agriculture represents 2.5% of total GDP and 3.6% of exports.[2] While agricultural workers make up only 3.7% of the work force, Israel produces 95% of its own food requirements, supplementing this with imports of grain, oilseeds, meat, coffee, cocoa and sugar.

Hardly the description of an "agricultural nation" Israels GDP is $245 billion, Israel exports $62.5 billion worth of goods meaning that they produce roughly $6.12 billion worth of food of which roughly $2.25 billion is exported. My own state of Ohio, just one state, produces $8.8 billion in agricultural goods http://www.nass.usda.gov/Statistics_by_State/Ohio/Publications/pro.pdf of which $3.4 billion is exported http://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/state-export-data.aspx#25532 

From a world production standpoint, Israel is a drop in the bucket. (Plus if you go through the effort you will find that the largest beneficiary of Israel's food exports go to the US- hardly a starving nation) Compared the the US, the EU and Russia, it is a very small fish in a very big pond.

So claiming that Israel is feeding the world is absurd on its face. 

 

TWD39 wrote:

The nation would even be reborn in a day - Isaiah 66:8

 

Are you claiming that Israel was created in a day? Please tell me that isn't what you are saying. You can't be that ignorant.

 

TWD39 wrote:

Now you can not say there is ZERO evidence supporting Christianity.

 

You have presented ZERO evidence supporting Christianity. Although I will applaud your attempt, you should be able to understand what a miserable failure it was. The only "prophecy" that can be construed as correct is the first. The second hasn't happened yet and the last two are outright falsehoods that will never happen. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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TWD39 wrote: What purpose

TWD39 wrote:

 

What purpose does laughter and taste buds serve in the evolutionary process?  They are not necessary features for survival.   They serve no biological function whatsoever.   If humans are animals, why don't we operate on animal instict like every other freaking species? 

 

The fact that every single human being that has ever lived has been an unique person with appearance and personality tells me that humans had a creator.

 

 

You need to at least define what qualifies as acceptable evidence.  If you want me to prove God to you via the scientific method, it ain't going to work.  Your trying to apply a methdology created from flawed man to analyze a spiritual reality through physical means.  It's not going to happen. 

 

How about evidence that the Bible is divine, and not a book of myths?  Proof - The prophesies foretelling the future of Israel have all come true. 

Israel was scatted to many nations - Hosea 9:17

 

Then brought back together as a nation in the 1940s - Ezekiel 37:21, Isaiah 11:11,12

Israel would become an agricultural nation and feed the world - Isaiah 26:6

 

From wiki:

 

Agriculture in Israel is a highly developed industry: Israel is a major exporter of fresh produce and a world-leader in agricultural technologies despite the fact that the geography of Israel is not naturally conducive to agriculture.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_israel

 

The nation would even be reborn in a day - Isaiah 66:8

 

Now you can not say there is ZERO evidence supporting Christianity.

 

Now is this the part where I am supposed to point out the fallacies in your argument and give you a definition of evidence? Then, you can respond with a lot of pissing and whining about "stubborn atheists" ? Then I make a counter claim and a few other people make some counterclaims ? Then you pick and choose what to answer with some assertions ? Then when those assertions are countered you'll start pissing and moaning about "atheist mockery" ? Then someone else makes a point and you counter with more bullshit ? Then I make a counter-argument and you start playing matyr and whining about " negative atheist people ? 

Isn't that been about the crux of this thread so far ? Shall we continue ? 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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TWD39 wrote: Actually the

TWD39 wrote:

 

Actually the violence in the Bible only serves to proof that it is true.  It tells the recorded history as it really happened, man in all his ugly sinful glory.  Just about every great man of God is shown as flawed and sinful as well.  If the Bible only presented beautiful positive stories then you atheists would be throwing that up as an example of hiding the truth.

It's funny that atheists are so fevorant in their defense of the Amalekites, a group of ppl who actually burned children in sacrifice.  If God was merciful to this evil race of humans then you would be griping that God allows evil to exist.  God just can't win with atheists. sigh

Never defended the Amalekites, the Vikings or any other primitive civilization that worshipped deities and had blood sacrifices. There you go changing the subject again ( or at least attempting to). 

So, your last point is saying that because Moses got to mass murder some savage people, that proves that god is real ? Wait a minute, if god had not said to kill those people, then I would argue that god was evil ? 

Hmm, here is an original thought for you. Why didn't god just allow those people and the Israelites to be born with enough sophistication so that neither was savage ? Oh that's right, this is the part where you use that free- will bullshit argument that all christians fall back on when cornered. First, they attribute everything to god's will, then they switch it back to the free-will of man when it doesn't fit into their mythology. 

Well if god just can not win with atheists, as your last sentence says, then god must not be all that powerful. Unless you have designated yourself as the mouthpiece of god and saying that YOU are the one that can not win with the atheists. Ever consider there is a reason for that ? Probably not, it doesn't fit into your superstition. Shall we have another go around with this ? 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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harleysportster wrote:Now is

harleysportster wrote:

Now is this the part where I am supposed to point out the fallacies in your argument and give you a definition of evidence? Then, you can respond with a lot of pissing and whining about "stubborn atheists" ? Then I make a counter claim and a few other people make some counterclaims ? Then you pick and choose what to answer with some assertions ? Then when those assertions are countered you'll start pissing and moaning about "atheist mockery" ? Then someone else makes a point and you counter with more bullshit ? Then I make a counter-argument and you start playing matyr and whining about " negative atheist people ? 

Isn't that been about the crux of this thread so far ? Shall we continue ? 

DAMN YOU HARLEY! You could have at least put *spoiler alert* 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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harleysportster wrote:TWD39

harleysportster wrote:

TWD39 wrote:

 

Actually the violence in the Bible only serves to proof that it is true.  It tells the recorded history as it really happened, man in all his ugly sinful glory.  Just about every great man of God is shown as flawed and sinful as well.  If the Bible only presented beautiful positive stories then you atheists would be throwing that up as an example of hiding the truth.

It's funny that atheists are so fevorant in their defense of the Amalekites, a group of ppl who actually burned children in sacrifice.  If God was merciful to this evil race of humans then you would be griping that God allows evil to exist.  God just can't win with atheists. sigh

Never defended the Amalekites, the Vikings or any other primitive civilization that worshipped deities and had blood sacrifices. There you go changing the subject again ( or at least attempting to). 

So, your last point is saying that because Moses got to mass murder some savage people, that proves that god is real ? Wait a minute, if god had not said to kill those people, then I would argue that god was evil ? 

Hmm, here is an original thought for you. Why didn't god just allow those people and the Israelites to be born with enough sophistication so that neither was savage ? Oh that's right, this is the part where you use that free- will bullshit argument that all christians fall back on when cornered. First, they attribute everything to god's will, then they switch it back to the free-will of man when it doesn't fit into their mythology. 

Well if god just can not win with atheists, as your last sentence says, then god must not be all that powerful. Unless you have designated yourself as the mouthpiece of god and saying that YOU are the one that can not win with the atheists. Ever consider there is a reason for that ? Probably not, it doesn't fit into your superstition. Shall we have another go around with this ? 

 

I am merely pointing out the silly games that atheists play with the Bible.   You claim God is a jerk because he orders the Israelities not to spare their enemies.  But if God had not protected his chosen people, you would be blasting Him for non-action.  And you have the gall to demand that God craft his actions to appease a sinful man?  You obviously have much hatred for the goodness of God. 


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Beyond Saving wrote:TWD39

Beyond Saving wrote:

TWD39 wrote:

You need to at least define what qualifies as acceptable evidence.  If you want me to prove God to you via the scientific method, it ain't going to work.

Yeah, it probably won't the scientific method is notoriously bad for proving falsehoods but you are welcome to try.

 

TWD39 wrote:

How about evidence that the Bible is divine, and not a book of myths?  Proof - The prophesies foretelling the future of Israel have all come true. 

This will be good, yes let us look at these great prophesies.

 

TWD39 wrote:

Israel was scatted to many nations - Hosea 9:17 

 

prophecy wrote:

My God will reject them because they have not obeyed him; they will be wanderers among the nations.

In the future do me the favor of posting the actual words so I don't have to google it, thanks. 

So the Jews will be spread and wander many nations. Ok, sure, Jews are pretty much everywhere now. Of course, you could say the same about most every people from nations 2000 years ago. Replace Israel with Gaul, Viking, Thracian, Anglo, Saxon, Aryan, Kenyan, Chinese, Vietnamese, Arabian, Swedish or any other nationality/ethnicity you want to choose and this prediction is true. The world has gotten smaller and people are far more intermixed than they were 2000 years ago, it is called modern transportation. But ok, maybe the bible didn't see a reason to talk about all the other peoples that would become wanderers among the nations because the Jews hold the dubious honor of being gods "chosen people" (a distinction that has led to the pain, suffering and death of many perfectly nice Jews)

 

TWD39 wrote:

Then brought back together as a nation in the 1940s - Ezekiel 37:21, Isaiah 11:11,12

 

Yet it is quite clear that the children of Israel are still spread out among the heathen. If your interpretation of the first part is correct that they are wandering the many nations... well they still are. In the nation we know as Israel only 5.9 million people are jewish  http://www.cbs.gov.il/www/yarhon/b1_e.htm 

Whereas there is an estimate 6.4 million Jews in the US alone http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/cats/population.html so, not even half of the Jews were brought back together. Scratch that prophecy up as a fail or at least not achieved yet (and unlikely to ever happen). 

 

 

 

TWD39 wrote:

Israel would become an agricultural nation and feed the world - Isaiah 26:6

 

From wiki:

 

Agriculture in Israel is a highly developed industry: Israel is a major exporter of fresh produce and a world-leader in agricultural technologies despite the fact that the geography of Israel is not naturally conducive to agriculture.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_israel

Lol, read your own link dumb ass. 

from your own damn link wrote:

Only 20% of the land area is naturally arable.[1] Today agriculture represents 2.5% of total GDP and 3.6% of exports.[2] While agricultural workers make up only 3.7% of the work force, Israel produces 95% of its own food requirements, supplementing this with imports of grain, oilseeds, meat, coffee, cocoa and sugar.

Hardly the description of an "agricultural nation" Israels GDP is $245 billion, Israel exports $62.5 billion worth of goods meaning that they produce roughly $6.12 billion worth of food of which roughly $2.25 billion is exported. My own state of Ohio, just one state, produces $8.8 billion in agricultural goods http://www.nass.usda.gov/Statistics_by_State/Ohio/Publications/pro.pdf of which $3.4 billion is exported http://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/state-export-data.aspx#25532 

From a world production standpoint, Israel is a drop in the bucket. (Plus if you go through the effort you will find that the largest beneficiary of Israel's food exports go to the US- hardly a starving nation) Compared the the US, the EU and Russia, it is a very small fish in a very big pond.

So claiming that Israel is feeding the world is absurd on its face. 

 

TWD39 wrote:

The nation would even be reborn in a day - Isaiah 66:8

 

Are you claiming that Israel was created in a day? Please tell me that isn't what you are saying. You can't be that ignorant.

 

TWD39 wrote:

Now you can not say there is ZERO evidence supporting Christianity.

 

You have presented ZERO evidence supporting Christianity. Although I will applaud your attempt, you should be able to understand what a miserable failure it was. The only "prophecy" that can be construed as correct is the first. The second hasn't happened yet and the last two are outright falsehoods that will never happen. 

 

 

  

 

 

 

Seriously, are you atheists simply incapable of crafting a response without derogatory remarks?  Oh no, you couldn't just post counter arguments.  You have to state that my arugments are a miserable failure, and I'm the most ignorant person in all existence!!  Please.  You haven't destroyed my arguments.  You haven't left me defeated.  You haven't shaken my faith one single iota. 

 

Your counter-arguments are ridiculously legalistic.  Does Israel exist now as a recognized nation? Yes or No.   The only way you can argue this prophecy is to demand that every single Jew living must now live in Israel.  Ridiculous and pathetic.

 

And Israel was recognized as a nation on a single day - May 14, 1948.   Get out of your fiction God hate world, and study some real history.  In real history, nations don't just scatter to the winds, and suddenly reborn hundreds of years later with their cities names and ancient language intact. 

 

As for posting the full verse,  why should I make your job easier when you have been extremely rude and disrespectful from the beginning?  I owe you nothing.


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TWD39 wrote: I am merely

TWD39 wrote:

 

I am merely pointing out the silly games that atheists play with the Bible.

 

 

It's the perfect response to the silly games that Christians play with the Bible.

 

TWD39 wrote:
  You claim God is a jerk because he orders the Israelities not to spare their enemies. 

 

 Perhaps if you were an Amalakite or a Midianite you would understand.   I'm not a pacifist but I would never knowingly kill men, women and children but I'm sure you would.   Right ?

 

 

TWD39 wrote:
But if God had not protected his chosen people, you would be blasting Him for non-action.

 

  No... I wouldn't.

 

TWD39 wrote:
And you have the gall to demand that God craft his actions to appease a sinful man?  You obviously have much hatred for the goodness of God. 

 

  You obviously have much hatred for the goodness of Adolph Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, Charles Taylor.   They waged war like your good God did,  without mercy.

 

 

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TWD39 wrote:

You need to at least define what qualifies as acceptable evidence.  If you want me to prove God to you via the scientific method, it ain't going to work.

 

TWD39 wrote:

Seriously, are you atheists simply incapable of crafting a response without derogatory remarks?  Oh no, you couldn't just post counter arguments.  You have to state that my arugments are a miserable failure, and I'm the most ignorant person in all existence!!  Please.  You haven't destroyed my arguments.  You haven't left me defeated.  You haven't shaken my faith one single iota.


  ..   ..   ..

  Like a Buddhist on the board once said, "The burden of proof lies with you". Besides, I do not think you are being fair to the board. I have had the experience of being on other forums and this is a public forum.  What you experienced here could have been replicated in near thousands of other places.  "I'm the most ignorant person in all of existence" sounds to me like hurt. No one is trying to 'defeat' you. I dont think anything I could say would help so I will leave it at that.  However, I could suggest is have the thread moved to an area of the board you'd feel better suited to.

 

 


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TWD39 wrote:Seriously, are

TWD39 wrote:

Seriously, are you atheists simply incapable of crafting a response without derogatory remarks?  Oh no, you couldn't just post counter arguments.  You have to state that my arugments are a miserable failure, and I'm the most ignorant person in all existence!!  Please.  You haven't destroyed my arguments.  You haven't left me defeated.  You haven't shaken my faith one single iota. 

]

Yeah, when confronted with an absurd stupid argument I have a hard time not being derogatory. Grow up. If you make a stupid point I will point it out as stupid. You can see that I do not spare my fellow atheists from the same thing. 

 

TWD39 wrote:

Your counter-arguments are ridiculously legalistic.  Does Israel exist now as a recognized nation? Yes or No.   The only way you can argue this prophecy is to demand that every single Jew living must now live in Israel.  Ridiculous and pathetic.

Well what constitutes fulfilling the prophesy? It clearly states that the all of the children of Israel will move back and be united in one kingdom. Since less than 1/2 of the Jews in the world are in Israel there is at least two major groups of Jews, they have not been combined into one nation of people. Perhaps you could say "close enough" if the vast majority of Jews in the world were in Israel, but they are not. The majority of Jews do not live in Israel. Roughly 40% are there and mostly because the British Empire engineered it (of course, I'm sure it was moving with the hand of god, god just forgot about all the Jews that went to the US) Prophecy is meaningless if you look at it afterwords and can apply 99.99% of possibilities and rationalize until they fit. I suppose we could force the biblical prophecy to come true by persecuting and killing all the Jews in the US but that seems kind of ridiculous to me. Guess we have to live with a prophecy that is half fulfilled. 

 

TWD39 wrote:
 

And Israel was recognized as a nation on a single day - May 14, 1948.   Get out of your fiction God hate world, and study some real history.  In real history, nations don't just scatter to the winds, and suddenly reborn hundreds of years later with their cities names and ancient language intact. 

The creation of modern Israel was a long and arduous task that started in the late 19th century with the Zionist movement. With the help of the British Empire it started laying the groundwork and started the settlement of modern day Israel. You might want to do a little research on "The British Mandate" http://www.merip.org/palestine-israel_primer/brit-mandate-pal-isr-prime.html May 14th, 1948 was the end of the process. Saying Israel was created in one day is like saying that World War II was won in one day on September 2, 1945- ignoring all the battles and efforts that occurred the prior years. By the time Israel was recognized as an independent state the inhabitants, mostly refugees from the holocaust, had already been living there for at least several years and many for decades.

 

I'll take it you concede that Israel is not an agricultural nation and does not feed the world. Good choice, because those were by far your weakest arguments. But it does call into question if some of the prophecy is blatantly false and other parts can be considered fulfilled only in a weak sense, do you really want to put all your faith in it?

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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TWD39 wrote:  I am merely

TWD39 wrote:

 

 

I am merely pointing out the silly games that atheists play with the Bible.   You claim God is a jerk because he orders the Israelities not to spare their enemies.  But if God had not protected his chosen people, you would be blasting Him for non-action.  And you have the gall to demand that God craft his actions to appease a sinful man?  You obviously have much hatred for the goodness of God. 

And ONCE AGAIN. You dodged some of my counters and went back to the position of martyrdom. 

God of the bible is a jerk, because he ISN'T REAL ! He was created by men. Primitive, savage men. 

Gall to demand that god appease ? If such a thing as god existed, why would he allow man to be sinful in the first place ? Oh yeah, your gonna throw that free-will argument out right ? 

I have no more hatred for god than I do Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy. I DO have a passionate dislike for the smug superiority complex of people that claim to be mouthpieces for a "god" and use that as a tool for political control and power or to indoctrinate innocent young people that are unfortunate enough to be born into those religions ( like I was) into believing such delusions. 

I spent ALL of my childhood passionately praying, getting up in the morning and hitting my knees, hearing readings from the bible every night and begging god to forgive all those family members and unfortunate people into hell. 

I feel that the church and it's lies stole my childhood and almost into my adulthood. 

 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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TWD39 wrote:I am merely

TWD39 wrote:

I am merely pointing out the silly games that atheists play with the Bible.   You claim God is a jerk because he orders the Israelities not to spare their enemies.  But if God had not protected his chosen people, you would be blasting Him for non-action.  And you have the gall to demand that God craft his actions to appease a sinful man?  You obviously have much hatred for the goodness of God. 

All I want here is for you to answer one question: Why is it ok for god to commit genocide? 

Theists - If your god is omnipotent, remember the following: He (or she) has the cure for cancer, but won't tell us what it is.


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Jabberwocky wrote:TWD39

Jabberwocky wrote:

TWD39 wrote:

I am merely pointing out the silly games that atheists play with the Bible.   You claim God is a jerk because he orders the Israelities not to spare their enemies.  But if God had not protected his chosen people, you would be blasting Him for non-action.  And you have the gall to demand that God craft his actions to appease a sinful man?  You obviously have much hatred for the goodness of God. 

All I want here is for you to answer one question: Why is it ok for god to commit genocide? 

 

That is like this one documentary I saw, the interviewer asked several religious people (of varying fanaticism) whether, if asked by God (and they knew 100% that it was the real God) to kill their children or commit genocide, would the do it?

I was appalled by the answers. One said "Oh, I'd have to be REALLY sure it was actually God, But If I knew it was God, than I'd hope I would have the strength to do it".

Another was like "Uh... Yeah. I'd do it. It's God, so it must be the right thing to do".

 

Secularist, Atheist, Skeptic, Freethinker


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ThunderJones wrote:

Jabberwocky wrote:

TWD39 wrote:

I am merely pointing out the silly games that atheists play with the Bible.   You claim God is a jerk because he orders the Israelities not to spare their enemies.  But if God had not protected his chosen people, you would be blasting Him for non-action.  And you have the gall to demand that God craft his actions to appease a sinful man?  You obviously have much hatred for the goodness of God. 

All I want here is for you to answer one question: Why is it ok for god to commit genocide? 

 

That is like this one documentary I saw, the interviewer asked several religious people (of varying fanaticism) whether, if asked by God (and they knew 100% that it was the real God) to kill their children or commit genocide, would the do it?

I was appalled by the answers. One said "Oh, I'd have to be REALLY sure it was actually God, But If I knew it was God, than I'd hope I would have the strength to do it".

Another was like "Uh... Yeah. I'd do it. It's God, so it must be the right thing to do".

 

 

If I ever am so unfortunate as to meet the so-called benevolent christian god, I intend to do my darndest to kick the SOB where it hurts and then demand to be sent to hell.  At least the Satan character is honest about the misery he causes.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

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cj wrote:ThunderJones

cj wrote:

ThunderJones wrote:

Jabberwocky wrote:

TWD39 wrote:

I am merely pointing out the silly games that atheists play with the Bible.   You claim God is a jerk because he orders the Israelities not to spare their enemies.  But if God had not protected his chosen people, you would be blasting Him for non-action.  And you have the gall to demand that God craft his actions to appease a sinful man?  You obviously have much hatred for the goodness of God. 

All I want here is for you to answer one question: Why is it ok for god to commit genocide? 

 

That is like this one documentary I saw, the interviewer asked several religious people (of varying fanaticism) whether, if asked by God (and they knew 100% that it was the real God) to kill their children or commit genocide, would the do it?

I was appalled by the answers. One said "Oh, I'd have to be REALLY sure it was actually God, But If I knew it was God, than I'd hope I would have the strength to do it".

Another was like "Uh... Yeah. I'd do it. It's God, so it must be the right thing to do".

 

 

If I ever am so unfortunate as to meet the so-called benevolent christian god, I intend to do my darndest to kick the SOB where it hurts and then demand to be sent to hell.  At least the Satan character is honest about the misery he causes.

 

 

Cj   I put that on an abstract art template I made and posted it to my facebook page. I quoted you as "cj".   Hope you don't mind.  You're quite a character.

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


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cj wrote:ThunderJones

cj wrote:

ThunderJones wrote:

Jabberwocky wrote:

TWD39 wrote:

I am merely pointing out the silly games that atheists play with the Bible.   You claim God is a jerk because he orders the Israelities not to spare their enemies.  But if God had not protected his chosen people, you would be blasting Him for non-action.  And you have the gall to demand that God craft his actions to appease a sinful man?  You obviously have much hatred for the goodness of God. 

All I want here is for you to answer one question: Why is it ok for god to commit genocide? 

 

That is like this one documentary I saw, the interviewer asked several religious people (of varying fanaticism) whether, if asked by God (and they knew 100% that it was the real God) to kill their children or commit genocide, would the do it?

I was appalled by the answers. One said "Oh, I'd have to be REALLY sure it was actually God, But If I knew it was God, than I'd hope I would have the strength to do it".

Another was like "Uh... Yeah. I'd do it. It's God, so it must be the right thing to do".

 

 

If I ever am so unfortunate as to meet the so-called benevolent christian god, I intend to do my darndest to kick the SOB where it hurts and then demand to be sent to hell.  At least the Satan character is honest about the misery he causes.

 

 

Well that's not very intelligent.  Even if God was a prime A jerk, I would gladly take eternal blliss over burning forever in a lake of fire.    OTOH, Satan hates your guts and wants to make your life miserable as possible.  He loves it when people resort to suicide over such levels of despair and hopeless.  Satan is the reason why this physical realm is so miserable.  He won't be your buddy in hell.  


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ThunderJones

ThunderJones wrote:

Jabberwocky wrote:

TWD39 wrote:

I am merely pointing out the silly games that atheists play with the Bible.   You claim God is a jerk because he orders the Israelities not to spare their enemies.  But if God had not protected his chosen people, you would be blasting Him for non-action.  And you have the gall to demand that God craft his actions to appease a sinful man?  You obviously have much hatred for the goodness of God. 

All I want here is for you to answer one question: Why is it ok for god to commit genocide? 

 

That is like this one documentary I saw, the interviewer asked several religious people (of varying fanaticism) whether, if asked by God (and they knew 100% that it was the real God) to kill their children or commit genocide, would the do it?

I was appalled by the answers. One said "Oh, I'd have to be REALLY sure it was actually God, But If I knew it was God, than I'd hope I would have the strength to do it".

Another was like "Uh... Yeah. I'd do it. It's God, so it must be the right thing to do".

 

 

Jesus came to fullfill the law so there is no longer a need for blood sacrifices.  God doesn't ask Christians to kill people.    Of course, atheists completely miss the most remarkable thing about the Abraham/Isaac story.  The elements perfectly parallel the death of Christ.  God made the same sacrifice that he asked of Abraham.  


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TWD39 wrote:ThunderJones

TWD39 wrote:

ThunderJones wrote:

Jabberwocky wrote:

TWD39 wrote:

I am merely pointing out the silly games that atheists play with the Bible.   You claim God is a jerk because he orders the Israelities not to spare their enemies.  But if God had not protected his chosen people, you would be blasting Him for non-action.  And you have the gall to demand that God craft his actions to appease a sinful man?  You obviously have much hatred for the goodness of God. 

All I want here is for you to answer one question: Why is it ok for god to commit genocide? 

 

That is like this one documentary I saw, the interviewer asked several religious people (of varying fanaticism) whether, if asked by God (and they knew 100% that it was the real God) to kill their children or commit genocide, would the do it?

I was appalled by the answers. One said "Oh, I'd have to be REALLY sure it was actually God, But If I knew it was God, than I'd hope I would have the strength to do it".

Another was like "Uh... Yeah. I'd do it. It's God, so it must be the right thing to do".

 

 

Jesus came to fullfill the law so there is no longer a need for blood sacrifices.  God doesn't ask Christians to kill people.    Of course, atheists completely miss the most remarkable thing about the Abraham/Isaac story.  The elements perfectly parallel the death of Christ.  God made the same sacrifice that he asked of Abraham.  

 

Woah woah wait. When did this happen? What about The Crusades, Salem Witch Hunt, Spanish Inqusition, Heretic Burnings, (the list goes on). All of these were justified using The Bible. You can't tell me that God doesn't ask you to kill people, because there are many bible passages that directly say this or that type of person should die.

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Victorious again! This

Victorious again! This hypocritical, lying theist is way too easy. And better hope he's wrong about god, else he'll be the one burning.

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tonyjeffers wrote:If I ever

tonyjeffers wrote:

cj wrote:

If I ever am so unfortunate as to meet the so-called benevolent christian god, I intend to do my darndest to kick the SOB where it hurts and then demand to be sent to hell.  At least the Satan character is honest about the misery he causes.

 

Cj   I put that on an abstract art template I made and posted it to my facebook page. I quoted you as "cj".   Hope you don't mind.  You're quite a character.

 

Sure - though I would like to see it.  I'll send you a friend request.  I am also sending you a private message with my facebook account name so you know who is bugging you.

 

edit: fixed quotes

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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ThunderJones wrote:TWD39

ThunderJones wrote:

TWD39 wrote:

ThunderJones wrote:

Jabberwocky wrote:

TWD39 wrote:

I am merely pointing out the silly games that atheists play with the Bible.   You claim God is a jerk because he orders the Israelities not to spare their enemies.  But if God had not protected his chosen people, you would be blasting Him for non-action.  And you have the gall to demand that God craft his actions to appease a sinful man?  You obviously have much hatred for the goodness of God. 

All I want here is for you to answer one question: Why is it ok for god to commit genocide? 

 

That is like this one documentary I saw, the interviewer asked several religious people (of varying fanaticism) whether, if asked by God (and they knew 100% that it was the real God) to kill their children or commit genocide, would the do it?

I was appalled by the answers. One said "Oh, I'd have to be REALLY sure it was actually God, But If I knew it was God, than I'd hope I would have the strength to do it".

Another was like "Uh... Yeah. I'd do it. It's God, so it must be the right thing to do".

 

 

Jesus came to fullfill the law so there is no longer a need for blood sacrifices.  God doesn't ask Christians to kill people.    Of course, atheists completely miss the most remarkable thing about the Abraham/Isaac story.  The elements perfectly parallel the death of Christ.  God made the same sacrifice that he asked of Abraham.  

 

Woah woah wait. When did this happen? What about The Crusades, Salem Witch Hunt, Spanish Inqusition, Heretic Burnings, (the list goes on). All of these were justified using The Bible. You can't tell me that God doesn't ask you to kill people, because there are many bible passages that directly say this or that type of person should die.

 

Evil men doing things in the name of Christ does not make them a Christian.   The Bible gives a simple test.  Look at their fruits, not their words.  The fruits of the spirit are  love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,  gentleness and self-control.  Murder, fear, death, condemnation, pain are all fruits of the devil.   Jesus is the example, and he spoke of this in Matthew 7:17.


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TWD39 wrote:cj wrote: If I

TWD39 wrote:

cj wrote:
 

If I ever am so unfortunate as to meet the so-called benevolent christian god, I intend to do my darndest to kick the SOB where it hurts and then demand to be sent to hell.  At least the Satan character is honest about the misery he causes.

Well that's not very intelligent.  Even if God was a prime A jerk, I would gladly take eternal blliss over burning forever in a lake of fire.    OTOH, Satan hates your guts and wants to make your life miserable as possible.  He loves it when people resort to suicide over such levels of despair and hopeless.  Satan is the reason why this physical realm is so miserable.  He won't be your buddy in hell.  

 

Sweetpea, I despise liars.  And your god lies - day in and day out.  And he lies about lying.  I don't want a buddy like that.  And I wouldn't feel at all blissful about hanging out with a god like that.  Heaven has always sounded like torture to me.  Even as a little kid I questioned Sunday School teachers about just how wonderful hanging out and singing hosanna could be after a few thousand years.

FYI, I am not and have never been suicidal.  I do not feel despair nor hopelessness.  I enjoy my life and expect to never meet your god, someone else' god, satan, or Santa Claus after I die.  I expect to be dead.  Gone.  Hopefully fondly remembered by friends and family.  I am anticipating enjoying my life as long as I live.  And no, I don't screw around (I have a monogamous marriage for 27 years now), drink too much (I'm diabetic and so is my husband), murder, rape, rob banks (the money would be handy about now), and so on.  We live a quiet life and we enjoy it.

 

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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Quote: Evil men doing things

Quote:

Evil men doing things in the name of Christ does not make them a Christian.   The Bible gives a simple test.  Look at their fruits, not their words.  The fruits of the spirit are  love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,  gentleness and self-control.  Murder, fear, death, condemnation, pain are all fruits of the devil.   Jesus is the example, and he spoke of this in Matthew 7:17.

Best get to a church fast. You don't want to die before repenting for your sins here, some of which you've just described. No self control, plenty of arrogance and even hatred against us.

Funny how atheists are generally more civil than christians when it's the christian who has a god telling him/her to be civil.

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Vastet wrote:Quote: Evil men

Vastet wrote:
Quote:
Evil men doing things in the name of Christ does not make them a Christian.   The Bible gives a simple test.  Look at their fruits, not their words.  The fruits of the spirit are  love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,  gentleness and self-control.  Murder, fear, death, condemnation, pain are all fruits of the devil.   Jesus is the example, and he spoke of this in Matthew 7:17.
Best get to a church fast. You don't want to die before repenting for your sins here, some of which you've just described. No self control, plenty of arrogance and even hatred against us. Funny how atheists are generally more civil than christians when it's the christian who has a god telling him/her to be civil.

 

It's the arrogance that gets me.  The bible explicitly says to be humble.  And what do they do?  Run around preaching as if their answer is the only answer for everyone.  Arrogance.  Look up the definition if you have any doubts.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

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Vastet wrote:Quote: Evil men

Vastet wrote:
Quote:
Evil men doing things in the name of Christ does not make them a Christian.   The Bible gives a simple test.  Look at their fruits, not their words.  The fruits of the spirit are  love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,  gentleness and self-control.  Murder, fear, death, condemnation, pain are all fruits of the devil.   Jesus is the example, and he spoke of this in Matthew 7:17.
Best get to a church fast. You don't want to die before repenting for your sins here, some of which you've just described. No self control, plenty of arrogance and even hatred against us. Funny how atheists are generally more civil than christians when it's the christian who has a god telling him/her to be civil.

 

Oh is that so?  My OP was quite civil, just simply sharing my perspective, and you people responded immediately with venomous angry replies.  Don't play the holier than thou game with me.  This is a message board,  not a reflection on one's life actions.    If I believed that the internet was a reflection of real life, i would feel like the US population is 90% atheist.


Vastet
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Your OP was, yes. But your

Your OP was, yes. But your responses have not all been.

I don't fear the wrath of a god. And I don't think it's necessarily wrong to call someone an idiot if you think they are being an idiot.

But you claim to, and you cannot honestly claim to have been respectful and loving and tolerant and joyful and gentle in every response.

Is it not written somewhere to turn the other cheek?

You don't even represent what you claim to believe. How exactly do you think you'll convince anyone here that your way is the right way?

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Beyond Saving wrote:Well

Beyond Saving wrote:

Well what constitutes fulfilling the prophesy? It clearly states that the all of the children of Israel will move back and be united in one kingdom. Since less than 1/2 of the Jews in the world are in Israel there is at least two major groups of Jews, they have not been combined into one nation of people. Perhaps you could say "close enough" if the vast majority of Jews in the world were in Israel, but they are not. The majority of Jews do not live in Israel. Roughly 40% are there and mostly because the British Empire engineered it (of course, I'm sure it was moving with the hand of god, god just forgot about all the Jews that went to the US) Prophecy is meaningless if you look at it afterwords and can apply 99.99% of possibilities and rationalize until they fit. I suppose we could force the biblical prophecy to come true by persecuting and killing all the Jews in the US but that seems kind of ridiculous to me. Guess we have to live with a prophecy that is half fulfilled. 

 

 

No, it doesn't say every single child of Israel will return.  It speaks in general.  Certainly enough Jews have returned to make Israel, not only an established nation, but the geopolitical center of the world.  Oh yea, the Bible predicted that too, along with nuclear weapons,  men being able to travel quickly around the world, and explosion of knowledge in the last days.   Pretty remarkable for a tiny nation.

 

Beyond Saving wrote:

The creation of modern Israel was a long and arduous task that started in the late 19th century with the Zionist movement. With the help of the British Empire it started laying the groundwork and started the settlement of modern day Israel. You might want to do a little research on "The British Mandate" http://www.merip.org/palestine-israel_primer/brit-mandate-pal-isr-prime.html May 14th, 1948 was the end of the process. Saying Israel was created in one day is like saying that World War II was won in one day on September 2, 1945- ignoring all the battles and efforts that occurred the prior years. By the time Israel was recognized as an independent state the inhabitants, mostly refugees from the holocaust, had already been living there for at least several years and many for decades.

And that long and ardous task meets the other part of the verse that mentions the labor pains.

 

Beyond Saving wrote:

 

I'll take it you concede that Israel is not an agricultural nation and does not feed the world. Good choice, because those were by far your weakest arguments. But it does call into question if some of the prophecy is blatantly false and other parts can be considered fulfilled only in a weak sense, do you really want to put all your faith in it?

 

Not at all.  Somehow, they transformed a desert into a land that produces exports that, yes, goes around the world, hence feeding the world.

 

Isaiah 26:6 NIV - "In days to come Jacob will take root, Israel will bud and blossom and fill all the world with fruit.

 

Nothing in that verse that talks about a specific GDP of the fruit export.   Israel has budded and blossomed.  The wiki article clearly states that is a major exporter of fresh produce and a world-leader in agricultural technologies, and exports over 40 types of fruit.  The prophecy is also fullfilled symbolically with the spread of Christianity.  Over 2 billion worldwide, and the Holy Bible is the most influencial book of all time despite man's many attempts to try and destroy it throughout history.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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TWD39 wrote:Not at all. 

TWD39 wrote:

Not at all.  Somehow, they transformed a desert into a land that produces exports that, yes, goes around the world, hence feeding the world.

 

Isaiah 26:6 NIV - "In days to come Jacob will take root, Israel will bud and blossom and fill all the world with fruit.

 

I grew up in Yuma, AZ.  My grandmother owned a lemon grove.  A lot of produce is grown there.  Even more is grown next door in Southern CA in the Imperial Valley.  Turning a desert into agricultural land only requires a source of water and some irrigation.  The Israelis have pioneered drip irrigation systems that minimize water usage.  But they are not the first nor the last to turn desert into farmland.  And I would bet the Imperial Valley feeds more people than the Israelis do, just based on acreage in production.

 

TWD39 wrote:

Nothing in that verse that talks about a specific GDP of the fruit export.   Israel has budded and blossomed.  The wiki article clearly states that is a major exporter of fresh produce and a world-leader in agricultural technologies, and exports over 40 types of fruit.  The prophecy is also fullfilled symbolically with the spread of Christianity.  Over 2 billion worldwide, and the Holy Bible is the most influencial book of all time despite man's many attempts to try and destroy it throughout history.

 

Well, it does say "all the world" and Europe, where most of the food is exported to, is not "all the world" - not even close.  And the Jews are likely not impressed with the spread of christianity but would rather think of Judaism being spread.  "Symbolically" fulfilled is hardly literally fulfilled, is it?

Why on earth the bible has so much influence, I have never been able to figure out.  Have you actually read it - cover to cover - in a short period of time?

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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TWD39 wrote:No, it doesn't

TWD39 wrote:

No, it doesn't say every single child of Israel will return.  It speaks in general.  Certainly enough Jews have returned to make Israel, not only an established nation, but the geopolitical center of the world.  Oh yea, the Bible predicted that too, along with nuclear weapons,  men being able to travel quickly around the world, and explosion of knowledge in the last days.   Pretty remarkable for a tiny nation.

 

Lol

 

TWD39 wrote:

And that long and ardous task meets the other part of the verse that mentions the labor pains.

 

Oh, so your prophecy predicted both that it would take a single day and that it would take a long time? Pretty easy to be right when you bet on both sides of the coin. Lets flip a coin, I put a million dollars on heads AND a million dollars on tails. Wow, can you imagine that I was right? I must be a prophet!

 

TWD39 wrote:
 

Not at all.  Somehow, they transformed a desert into a land that produces exports that, yes, goes around the world, hence feeding the world.

Isaiah 26:6 NIV - "In days to come Jacob will take root, Israel will bud and blossom and fill all the world with fruit.

 

Nothing in that verse that talks about a specific GDP of the fruit export.   Israel has budded and blossomed.  The wiki article clearly states that is a major exporter of fresh produce and a world-leader in agricultural technologies, and exports over 40 types of fruit.  The prophecy is also fullfilled symbolically with the spread of Christianity.  Over 2 billion worldwide, and the Holy Bible is the most influencial book of all time despite man's many attempts to try and destroy it throughout history.

Lol, dance monkey dance. So if Israel produced a single lemon and shipped it around the world to the US you would consider that filling your prophecy? And which is it? Are we talking lemons or christians (as if there is a difference)? You are interpreting these prophesies so loosely that it would have been impossible for them to be wrong. Now god being the wonderful all knowing being he supposedly his could have really impressed me by predicting amount of fruit that would be exported, or the amount grown during such and such a year. I've seen stage magicians do a better job pretending to predict the future, they predict much more specific details much more accurately without superpowers. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


Vastet
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Lol is the perfect response

Lol is the perfect response to that claim. Anyone who thinks any nation besides the US is the centre of global politics is very ignorant.

Israel, on a global scale, is a flash-point of violence and instability, nothing more.

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TWD39 wrote:  Murder, fear,

TWD39 wrote:
  Murder, fear, death, condemnation, pain are all fruits of the devil.  .

 

  The much admireded King David from the Old Testament based his entire career upon acts of murder, fear, death, condemnation and pain.   I guess he was just a big fake, too ?  He wasn't really "a man after God's own heart"   

Do you ever get tired of being so morally inconsistent ?

"Most people are ass holes." Jesus of Nazareth


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ProzacDeathWish wrote:TWD39

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

TWD39 wrote:
  Murder, fear, death, condemnation, pain are all fruits of the devil.  .

 

  The much admireded King David from the Old Testament based his entire career upon acts of murder, fear, death, condemnation and pain.   I guess he was just a big fake, too ?  He wasn't really "a man after God's own heart"   

Do you ever get tired of being so morally inconsistent ?

 

And David recognized that without God,  he had nothing good in him at all.

Psalms 16:2

 

Besides what acts of murder? Yes, David went to war against his enemies.  Do you regard our honored men and women of the military as murderers as well?  Sounds like you are the one with the warped sense of morality.

 


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Vastet wrote:Lol is the

Vastet wrote:
Lol is the perfect response to that claim. Anyone who thinks any nation besides the US is the centre of global politics is very ignorant. Israel, on a global scale, is a flash-point of violence and instability, nothing more.

 

The joke is on you.  Israel often makes the world news headlines, and many nations in the Middle East want to see them destroyed.  Wow, just like the Bible predicted as well.  We have Iran threatened to nuke them off the face  of the planet.  This really hangs the world by a thread.  If Israel nukes Iran, say hell to WWIII.   Israel as been a major political player since the nation was created.  Oh yeah, and any nation that has tried to attack them got their butts handed to them.  Just as the Bible predicted.

 

This tiny nation has become one of the most important US allies.   Why isn't Qatar just as important?


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Beyond Saving wrote:[Oh, so

Beyond Saving wrote:

[Oh, so your prophecy predicted both that it would take a single day and that it would take a long time? Pretty easy to be right when you bet on both sides of the coin. Lets flip a coin, I put a million dollars on heads AND a million dollars on tails. Wow, can you imagine that I was right? I must be a prophet!

Is a child born in a single day?  The prophecy compares Israel to childbirth.  First you have the labor pains, then, yes, the child is born.  Legalism aside, you completely ignore the remarkable element of the propehcy.  The Jews were scattered to many nations, and the nation of Israel was formed again hundreds of years later.  That is not a win win prophecy.  The odds of it happening are slim, and the prophecy could have been easily refuted if the Bible authors were just creating a fiction out of thin air. 

 

 

Beyond Saving wrote:

 

 

Lol, dance monkey dance. So if Israel produced a single lemon and shipped it around the world to the US you would consider that filling your prophecy? And which is it? Are we talking lemons or christians (as if there is a difference)? You are interpreting these prophesies so loosely that it would have been impossible for them to be wrong. Now god being the wonderful all knowing being he supposedly his could have really impressed me by predicting amount of fruit that would be exported, or the amount grown during such and such a year. I've seen stage magicians do a better job pretending to predict the future, they predict much more specific details much more accurately without superpowers. 

 

First, you gloat that I ran away from your arguments, and now when I address them, you talk more trash.  Do you want me to respond or not?  If you are just goading me for your own sick twisted amusement then I'm done with you.  There is absolutely no way God would impress you because you refuse to believe.  If he mentioned the exact count of fruit, you would be here claiming that the Jews were self fullfilling the prophecy.  Two hundred years ago, a skeptic would be laughing at this prophecy.  How ridiculous to suggest that the dessert land would be a large source of agriculture, or that the Jews could ever come together as one of the most properous nations in the world.  And skeptics are still laughing.  There is no satisfying the skeptics.  Ever.

 


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TWD39 wrote: First, you

TWD39 wrote:

 

First, you gloat that I ran away from your arguments, and now when I address them, you talk more trash.  Do you want me to respond or not?  If you are just goading me for your own sick twisted amusement then I'm done with you.  There is absolutely no way God would impress you because you refuse to believe.  If he mentioned the exact count of fruit, you would be here claiming that the Jews were self fullfilling the prophecy.  Two hundred years ago, a skeptic would be laughing at this prophecy.  How ridiculous to suggest that the dessert land would be a large source of agriculture, or that the Jews could ever come together as one of the most properous nations in the world.  And skeptics are still laughing.  There is no satisfying the skeptics.  Ever.

 

Irrigation was invented long before the bible was written and was used throughout the middle east. There is evidence that some cultures were using irrigation to farm desserts as early as 6000 BCE. So if growing any small crop in Israel is proof of the prophecy than the prophecy didn't mean much in the first place since the ability to do so already existed. Now if Israel actually produced enough to feed the whole world, that would be impressive, but as it is Israel barely feeds itself and has a little extra to trade. Not that remarkable.  

You are simply doing everything you can to try to force reality to fit your prophecy. I'm just saying that an all powerful, all knowing being could do better. Every time you make a concrete claim of what the prophecy means it is easily refuted. The prophecy only survives by being extremely vague, and a vague prophecy simply is not impressive. Certainly not impressive enough to consider it evidence of the extraordinary claim of an all powerful super being as a number of fiction writers throughout history have made far more precise and far more accurate predictions. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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TWD39 wrote:   Besides

TWD39 wrote:

 

 

 

Besides what acts of murder?

 

  Read carefully the words from I Samuel 27: 8-12  and pay attention to the context.

 

"Now David and his men went up and raided the Geshurites, the Girzites and the Amalekites.  ( From ancient times these peoples had lived in the land extending to Shur and Egypt. )  Whenever David attacked an area he did not leave a man or woman alive but took sheep and cattle, donkeys and camels, and clothes. Then he returned to Achish

 When Achish asked 'Where did you go raiding today?' David would say 'Against the Negev of Judah' or 'Against the Negev of Jerameel' or 'Against the Negev of the Kenites' 

He did not leave a man or woman alive TO BE BROUGHT TO GATH, for he thought, 'THEY MIGHT INFORM ON US AND SAY ' This is what David did.'  And such was his practice as long as he lived in Philistine territory. 

Achish trusted David and said to himself 'He has become so odious to his people the Israelites, that he will be my servant forever.'"

 

  David wasn't engaged in war, he wasn't even a king yet!  He was simply looting and pillaging and then massacring all the witnesses so they wouldn't "INFORM" on him.   Does that sound like righteous behaviour to you?  ( Well, you're a Christian so I know you will defend David no matter what he does. )

 

TWD39 wrote:
Yes, David went to war against his enemies.  Do you regard our honored men and women of the military as murderers as well? 

 

   Our "honored men and women of the military" are required to abide by the Uniform Code Of Military Justice ( www.ucmj.us )  and are trained to know what is a legal order as well as what constitutes an illegal order.   Do you know what happens to American military personnel who behave like Biblical heroes ?

    Please see:

903.Article 103 "Captured or abandoned property"  and

918.Article 118 "Murder"

 

TWD39 wrote:
Sounds like you are the one with the warped sense of morality.

 

 

   Then I challenge you to take your superior Bible morals and enlist in any branch of the US Armed Forces and behave in a way that is consistent with King David or any of the Old Testament Patriarch's and come back and report to us whether you received the type of recognition that you believe such "righteous" behavior deserves.    I eagerly await your answer.

 

 

"Most people are ass holes." Jesus of Nazareth


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TWD39 wrote: Well that's

TWD39 wrote:

 

Well that's not very intelligent.  Even if God was a prime A jerk, I would gladly take eternal blliss over burning forever in a lake of fire.    OTOH, Satan hates your guts and wants to make your life miserable as possible.  He loves it when people resort to suicide over such levels of despair and hopeless.  Satan is the reason why this physical realm is so miserable.  He won't be your buddy in hell.  

Which brings about a very interesting question. What kind of person could "enjoy" heavenly bliss, knowing there are hordes of people ( perhaps even loved ones and family members0 burning in eternal hell. 

Suicide is a byproduct of mental illnesses which survivors have been treated for and returned to normal lives. Pretty terrible to say that god would allow Satan to pull people into hell for their mental illness. 

BUT, you clearly state that even if god is a jerk, you would not question his tyranny or injustice. You clearly stated that. So that means you couldn't possibly care who suffers forever, so long as you get a piece of the heavenly bliss. Not a very nice way of looking at things IMO. And you say that Atheists are not nice people. Wow. 

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May 14, 1948 - Isaiah 66:8

TWD39 wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

TWD39 wrote:

You need to at least define what qualifies as acceptable evidence.  If you want me to prove God to you via the scientific method, it ain't going to work.

Yeah, it probably won't the scientific method is notoriously bad for proving falsehoods but you are welcome to try.

 

TWD39 wrote:

How about evidence that the Bible is divine, and not a book of myths?  Proof - The prophesies foretelling the future of Israel have all come true. 

This will be good, yes let us look at these great prophesies.

 

TWD39 wrote:

Israel was scatted to many nations - Hosea 9:17 

 

prophecy wrote:

My God will reject them because they have not obeyed him; they will be wanderers among the nations.

In the future do me the favor of posting the actual words so I don't have to google it, thanks. 

So the Jews will be spread and wander many nations. Ok, sure, Jews are pretty much everywhere now. Of course, you could say the same about most every people from nations 2000 years ago. Replace Israel with Gaul, Viking, Thracian, Anglo, Saxon, Aryan, Kenyan, Chinese, Vietnamese, Arabian, Swedish or any other nationality/ethnicity you want to choose and this prediction is true. The world has gotten smaller and people are far more intermixed than they were 2000 years ago, it is called modern transportation. But ok, maybe the bible didn't see a reason to talk about all the other peoples that would become wanderers among the nations because the Jews hold the dubious honor of being gods "chosen people" (a distinction that has led to the pain, suffering and death of many perfectly nice Jews)

 

TWD39 wrote:

Then brought back together as a nation in the 1940s - Ezekiel 37:21, Isaiah 11:11,12

 

Yet it is quite clear that the children of Israel are still spread out among the heathen. If your interpretation of the first part is correct that they are wandering the many nations... well they still are. In the nation we know as Israel only 5.9 million people are jewish  http://www.cbs.gov.il/www/yarhon/b1_e.htm 

Whereas there is an estimate 6.4 million Jews in the US alone http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/cats/population.html so, not even half of the Jews were brought back together. Scratch that prophecy up as a fail or at least not achieved yet (and unlikely to ever happen). 

 

 

 

TWD39 wrote:

Israel would become an agricultural nation and feed the world - Isaiah 26:6

 

From wiki:

 

Agriculture in Israel is a highly developed industry: Israel is a major exporter of fresh produce and a world-leader in agricultural technologies despite the fact that the geography of Israel is not naturally conducive to agriculture.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_israel

Lol, read your own link dumb ass. 

from your own damn link wrote:

Only 20% of the land area is naturally arable.[1] Today agriculture represents 2.5% of total GDP and 3.6% of exports.[2] While agricultural workers make up only 3.7% of the work force, Israel produces 95% of its own food requirements, supplementing this with imports of grain, oilseeds, meat, coffee, cocoa and sugar.

Hardly the description of an "agricultural nation" Israels GDP is $245 billion, Israel exports $62.5 billion worth of goods meaning that they produce roughly $6.12 billion worth of food of which roughly $2.25 billion is exported. My own state of Ohio, just one state, produces $8.8 billion in agricultural goods http://www.nass.usda.gov/Statistics_by_State/Ohio/Publications/pro.pdf of which $3.4 billion is exported http://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/state-export-data.aspx#25532 

From a world production standpoint, Israel is a drop in the bucket. (Plus if you go through the effort you will find that the largest beneficiary of Israel's food exports go to the US- hardly a starving nation) Compared the the US, the EU and Russia, it is a very small fish in a very big pond.

So claiming that Israel is feeding the world is absurd on its face. 

 

TWD39 wrote:

The nation would even be reborn in a day - Isaiah 66:8

 

Are you claiming that Israel was created in a day? Please tell me that isn't what you are saying. You can't be that ignorant.

 

TWD39 wrote:

Now you can not say there is ZERO evidence supporting Christianity.

 

You have presented ZERO evidence supporting Christianity. Although I will applaud your attempt, you should be able to understand what a miserable failure it was. The only "prophecy" that can be construed as correct is the first. The second hasn't happened yet and the last two are outright falsehoods that will never happen. 

 

 

  

 

 

Seriously, are you atheists simply incapable of crafting a response without derogatory remarks?  Oh no, you couldn't just post counter arguments.  You have to state that my arugments are a miserable failure, and I'm the most ignorant person in all existence!!  Please.  You haven't destroyed my arguments.  You haven't left me defeated.  You haven't shaken my faith one single iota. 

 

Your counter-arguments are ridiculously legalistic.  Does Israel exist now as a recognized nation? Yes or No.   The only way you can argue this prophecy is to demand that every single Jew living must now live in Israel.  Ridiculous and pathetic.

 

And Israel was recognized as a nation on a single day - May 14, 1948.   Get out of your fiction God hate world, and study some real history.  In real history, nations don't just scatter to the winds, and suddenly reborn hundreds of years later with their cities names and ancient language intact. 

 

As for posting the full verse,  why should I make your job easier when you have been extremely rude and disrespectful from the beginning?  I owe you nothing.

 

http://niv.scripturetext.com/isaiah/66.htm

When a verse is quoted I like to read the context. It should be consistent with what it is being credited for. And for prophecies I find it rarely, very rarely, works. Text are just lifted. The author of the book of Matthew is notorious for such lifting. And due to this there are more denominations that be counted. They simply quote mine and be damned the context.

So here I paraphrased  Isaiah 66. In brackets I have put comments. Your quote and what you think it means must be for a different time because it is very weak in context. It is a poor match.

= begin chapter paraphase

The Lord declares heaven is his throne, the earth is his footstool. He made everything. He delights in those who are humble and hates those that sacrifice animals to him. They do not listen to him so he will treat them harshly. The humble will cheer when god punishes those who are not humble before him.

"She" [Israel] will have a son with no childbirth pains. Can a country be born in a day? [1948-question, wouldn't the holocaust be the worst child birth ever?] Everyone be glad and rejoice with "her". You will drink deeply and delight in her overflowing abundance. [It is a rare event to buy anything that has the stamp - made in Israel, product of Israel except in the rare Israeli speciality stores. Matzo, gefilte fish you can find in some grocery stores. Doesn't sound like we are drinking deeply].

The Lords say "I will extend peace to her like a river and the wealth of nations like a flooding stream, you will nurse and be carried on her arm and dandled on her knees."

[When did peace break out in Israel? Really? Do you think that has been fulfilled? The U.S. has certainly been flooding that country with money, but not sure of many others. When did Israel become the country that provided aid to other countries? This study showed they are 41st out of 156 countries - http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/sep/08/charitable-giving-country#data

Kenya, Nigeria, Costa Rica beat them. Israel doesn't come to mind as being the nurse to nations.]

So when you see Israel back as a nation, living in peace, wealth flowing into Israel and Israel being the nurse to the nations you are to rejoice. And anyone who is a foe to this plan god will punish with a might fury with flames of fire. [I wonder what the Christians in the UK & US thought they should do to help Israel re-establish itself when they had the opportunity. What would you do? Burn or be on god's side?]

Those who eat the flesh of rats and pigs will meet your end. And because of their actions and imaginations, god is coming and he will gather them and they will see his glory. He will set a sign among them and send some to various countries, distant islands and they will proclaim god's glory. "And they will bring ALL [not just some] your brothers, from ALL [not just some] the nations, to Jerusalem as an offering to the Lord-on horses, in chariots and wagons and on mules and camels" [awful slow method of travel don't you think?] God will pick some as priest and levites. [some christians think blood sacrifices will be restarted soon]

God swears that all [not just some] mankind will then every [not just some] new moon and every [not just some] Sabbath will come down and bow down before Him. They will also see the dead bodies of those who rebelled against god,  where "their worm will not die, nor their fire be quenched"

= end of chapter paraphrase

 

So little of this has come to pass. The country born in a day without childbirth just doesn't make sense since it came upon the heals of the holocaust. Out of Israel there would be such abundance everyone would know, she would bring peace, she would be a nurse to countries. Everyone would go to Jerusalem weekly to see God and the dead bodies of those who didn't listen. None of that has happened. I think Israel happened not because of god but because of guilt and Christians thinking they must bring about the prophecies found in their holy book, but that book was very ego-centric to Israel obviously. My personal opinion Jesus said my kingdom is not of this world and such things are contrary to that spirit. When the Roman Catholics decided what books should be in the bible it would have been better to throw out the whole OT and make it a simple novelty.

So instead it becomes all about Israel and everyone else having to bow down to Israel's local god. I think you have cherry picked a text and set it up as a prophecy for this generation (common practice). But it is out of context. This event (1948) is not the event you are looking for.

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


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Thank you ex-min, so that is

Thank you ex-min, so that is why he didn't post the full verse. I looked it up on google but when you google a bible verse it only gives you one line, not the context. I also have noticed that most theists will always quote the bible one line at a time. Since I only read the bible once I don't really have the ability to easily determine the context.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X