In Defense of a Kind God

TWD39
Theist
Posts: 300
Joined: 2012-07-02
User is offlineOffline
In Defense of a Kind God

I've noticed that atheists tend to be a glass half empty person when it comes to discussions on God.  They put extreme focus on the negative, declaring God to be a brute, unjust, unloving, unmeriful Creator as it this perspective somehow validates the notion that God is a man-made construct.

 

I'm here to tilt things back a bit in the other directions.  Over the weekend, I was reminded on just how GOOD God is when reflecting on the gifts of God.  God has given us quite a lot to make it through this life without being completely miserable.   

 

Here are a few in no particular order:

 

1. Gift of Sleep -  Sleep is a wonderful invention.  Not only does it allow our bodies to recharge and renew energies,  sleep gives us an opportunity to shut off from the world.   No matter how tough my life is, I can always look forward to 6-8 hours a night escaping from reality. 

 

2.  Laughter -  God gave us this ability to have a physical release called laughter that for a moment, brings happiness and joy.  Science can only explain the mechanism behind the act.  There are well documented medical benefits to having a good laugh as well. 

 

3.  Taste buds -  we have up to 8,000 taste buds designed to give us sensations of pleasure with certain tastes.  God certainly didn't have to do this.   Taste of food is not necessary to substain the human body.  Taste doesn't matter to the digestive system.  But we have taste to enjoy a wide variety of foods.

 

4.  Sex -  I don't think anyone will argue with this one.  Sex is an amazing creation.  Our society is obsessed with it.   On a physical level, sex offers many benefits such as stress reduction and lower blood pressure.   It also serves to bring an emotional bond to a couple on a level that can't be experienced any other way.    However, whenevery you mess around with this powerful force outside God's requirements then the act has several consequences.  Spread of STDS, for example.

 

Yeah, there are many negatives to this existence.  I believe the introduction of sin is the root of these negatives, but God also gave us these gifts to help us make it through each day.  Whenever I think about the gifts, I realize just how ridiculous the belief in evolution really is.  We would have to be extremely lucky for random events to give us such great things to enjoy.  Evolution may have determined the need for a food source, but not the need for taste buds. 


harleysportster
atheist
harleysportster's picture
Posts: 3310
Joined: 2010-10-17
User is offlineOffline
TWD39 wrote:I've noticed

TWD39 wrote:

I've noticed that atheists tend to be a glass half empty person when it comes to discussions on God.  They put extreme focus on the negative, declaring God to be a brute, unjust, unloving, unmeriful Creator as it this perspective somehow validates the notion that God is a man-made construct.

Nope, I am actually a pretty contented, live and let live kind of guy. I also do not care if the belief in god provides comfort to some people. It is when people try to force their religious agendas into our society and into our laws that interfere with my life that I have a problem. If I were to make the bold assertion that "most christians seem to be hypocritical." You would argue that was a generalization and a bad one. 

TWD39 wrote:

I'm here to tilt things back a bit in the other directions.  Over the weekend, I was reminded on just how GOOD God is when reflecting on the gifts of God.  God has given us quite a lot to make it through this life without being completely miserable.  

Can you prove that a god "gave" us any of those things and are not a product of evolution ? 

 

I fail to see how laughter, sex, sleep and taste buds proves a god and not an emergent property of biological evolution. 

TWD39 wrote:

 

Yeah, there are many negatives to this existence.  I believe the introduction of sin is the root of these negatives, but God also gave us these gifts to help us make it through each day.  Whenever I think about the gifts, I realize just how ridiculous the belief in evolution really is.  We would have to be extremely lucky for random events to give us such great things to enjoy.  Evolution may have determined the need for a food source, but not the need for taste buds.

 

Taste, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. Certain cultural delicacies would be deplorable to me, but would be considered grand cuisine in the countries they come from. Nothing better to me than those, greasy spoon, truck stop burger type places. My girlfriend finds that kind of food to be disgusting. 

Besides that, why would god allow sin in the world and then throw us a few gifts to help us through it ? Why allow sin in the first place ? I hope your not going to use that old standby free will concept. 

Trying not to sound bitter here, but look at it from this standpoint. I love being riding my motorcycle, being with friends, reading a lot of books etc. I don't have a wonderful life, but it is not that bad. What would happen if I walked up to a guy on the street, that has just buried his daughter, or has terminal cancer, or has just lost his home and told him to be "happy" about all of these "god-given gifts" ? 

Luck and random events have nothing to do with the process of evolution. It is rather a complex process that can arise out of a very simple set of replicators. 

Now. I will say this. If believing that god has given you "gifts" and appreciation of simple things helps you along the way. That is fine by me. I have no quarrel with you nor would I wish to rain upon your parade and tell you that simple things do not matter. 

However, I would ask that you extend me the same courtesy and realize that I am not a pessimistic, miserable and angry man because I lack a belief in god. I appreciate and love life a whole lot MORE, because I believe that this life is all that matters and all that ever will. 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


Beyond Saving
Silver Member
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 4476
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is onlineOnline
TWD39 wrote:1. Gift of Sleep

TWD39 wrote:

1. Gift of Sleep -  Sleep is a wonderful invention.  Not only does it allow our bodies to recharge and renew energies,  sleep gives us an opportunity to shut off from the world.   No matter how tough my life is, I can always look forward to 6-8 hours a night escaping from reality. 

Why doesn't god like insomniacs? 

 

TWD39 wrote:
 

2.  Laughter -  God gave us this ability to have a physical release called laughter that for a moment, brings happiness and joy.  Science can only explain the mechanism behind the act.  There are well documented medical benefits to having a good laugh as well. 

Xtians are always good for a laugh, especially the really wacky ones. I have to admit, you are right here- the concept of god has been a source of a lot of amusement in my life.

 

TWD39 wrote:
 

3.  Taste buds -  we have up to 8,000 taste buds designed to give us sensations of pleasure with certain tastes.  God certainly didn't have to do this.   Taste of food is not necessary to substain the human body.  Taste doesn't matter to the digestive system.  But we have taste to enjoy a wide variety of foods.

Then why didn't the sadistic SOB make broccoli taste like pizza? The more plausible reason for taste buds is they told us what we should and shouldn't eat before grocery stores and the wonderful FDA. Taste allows us to distinguish sweet and tasty berries from bitter and potentially poisonous ones, it allows us to distinguish from fresh meat and old tainted meat that might kill us. It gave us the drive to seek out foods high in fat and sugar that would give us a lot of energy. Useful in caveman days when food was difficult to get and meals irregular. In a modern society, our taste buds generally lead us to unhealthy diets and overeating of high protein, high fat and high sugar foods. You would think that an all knowing all seeing omnipotent creator would have realized our society would reach a point where that would be a problem.    

 

TWD39 wrote:
 

4.  Sex -  I don't think anyone will argue with this one.  Sex is an amazing creation.  Our society is obsessed with it.   On a physical level, sex offers many benefits such as stress reduction and lower blood pressure.   It also serves to bring an emotional bond to a couple on a level that can't be experienced any other way.    However, whenevery you mess around with this powerful force outside God's requirements then the act has several consequences.  Spread of STDS, for example.

 

Yet every christian I know at least professes that we shouldn't enjoy the full extent of pleasurable sex. They insist that we have sex with one, and only one, person our entire lives and many very enjoyable sexual acts are taboo in many denominations and provide a guaranteed ticket to hell. I always thought that people who practice monogamy are about as odd as people who eat the same meal for dinner every day, but hey, to each their own. If it is what you want go for it, but don't do it because some old book says you should or you will burn in hell. What kind of a god makes sex so wonderful then denies it to us? Cock tease. 

 

TWD39 wrote:
 

Yeah, there are many negatives to this existence.  I believe the introduction of sin is the root of these negatives, but God also gave us these gifts to help us make it through each day.  Whenever I think about the gifts, I realize just how ridiculous the belief in evolution really is.  We would have to be extremely lucky for random events to give us such great things to enjoy.  Evolution may have determined the need for a food source, but not the need for taste buds. 

Life is great, too great to waste it away worshiping a non-existent deity. Or worse, worshiping an existing deity that is sadistic, vain and incompetent. 

 

 

I just usually go with my own taste. If I like something, and it happens to be against the law, well, then I might have a problem.- Hunter S. Thompson


TWD39
Theist
Posts: 300
Joined: 2012-07-02
User is offlineOffline
Beyond Saving wrote:Why

Beyond Saving wrote:

Why doesn't god like insomniacs? 

 

Insomnia is a result of a flawed human body which originated from introducing sin into the world.  The causes are many.   Blaming God for lack of sleep would be the equivalent of blaming God for not gving you the gift of singing.

 

 

Beyond Saving wrote:

Xtians are always good for a laugh, especially the really wacky ones. I have to admit, you are right here- the concept of god has been a source of a lot of amusement in my life.

Doesn't surprise me.  Mockery of Christians is your form of worship.  It somehow makes your non-belief seem more valid.   

 

 

 

 

Beyond Saving wrote:

Then why didn't the sadistic SOB make broccoli taste like pizza? The more plausible reason for taste buds is they told us what we should and shouldn't eat before grocery stores and the wonderful FDA. Taste allows us to distinguish sweet and tasty berries from bitter and potentially poisonous ones, it allows us to distinguish from fresh meat and old tainted meat that might kill us. It gave us the drive to seek out foods high in fat and sugar that would give us a lot of energy. Useful in caveman days when food was difficult to get and meals irregular. In a modern society, our taste buds generally lead us to unhealthy diets and overeating of high protein, high fat and high sugar foods. You would think that an all knowing all seeing omnipotent creator would have realized our society would reach a point where that would be a problem.    

Wow, such anger and hatred for the living God.  Doesn't surprise me though since you are brainwashed to hate God by Satan.  BTW,  there are many people who find broccoli delicious.  In a modern society, our sinful human bodies crave destructive forces such as harmful processed food.  Sin = death.  It's a simple equation.

 

 

Beyond Saving wrote:

Yet every christian I know at least professes that we shouldn't enjoy the full extent of pleasurable sex. They insist that we have sex with one, and only one, person our entire lives and many very enjoyable sexual acts are taboo in many denominations and provide a guaranteed ticket to hell. I always thought that people who practice monogamy are about as odd as people who eat the same meal for dinner every day, but hey, to each their own. If it is what you want go for it, but don't do it because some old book says you should or you will burn in hell. What kind of a god makes sex so wonderful then denies it to us? Cock tease. 

 

You don't think being faithful to a spouse is a good thing?  Strip Christianity out of the equation and you still have consequences.  Sex with multiple partners = spread of diseases.   It also desensitizes you to the intimacy of the act.  I remember the wrestler Jake the Snake Roberts talking about how he could now longer make love to his wife after having so many sexual encounters and orgies. 

 

 

TWD39 wrote:
 

Life is great, too great to waste it away worshiping a non-existent deity. Or worse, worshiping an existing deity that is sadistic, vain and incompetent. 

 

 

1.  You have zero proof that there is no God. 

 

2.  Your great atheist life could change in a second.  To assume that all your future days will be free of pain and misery is to live in a fantasy.


ProzacDeathWish
atheist
ProzacDeathWish's picture
Posts: 3625
Joined: 2007-12-02
User is offlineOffline
TWD39 wrote:I've noticed

TWD39 wrote:

I've noticed that atheists tend to be a glass half empty person when it comes to discussions on God.

 

Are you a "glass half empty" Christian when it comes to discussing the gods of other world religions ?

 

TWD39 wrote:
They put extreme focus on the negative, declaring God to be a brute, unjust, unloving, unmeriful Creator as it this perspective somehow validates the notion that God is a man-made construct.

 

    Do you think Allah, the God of Islam is worthy of your admiration or are you just focusing on the negative ?

 

TWD39 wrote:
... God has given us quite a lot to make it through this life without being completely miserable. 

 

  Oh, thank you God !

  

 

 

TWD39 wrote:

 

1. Gift of Sleep -  Sleep is a wonderful invention.  Not only does it allow our bodies to recharge and renew energies,  sleep gives us an opportunity to shut off from the world.   No matter how tough my life is, I can always look forward to 6-8 hours a night escaping from reality. 

 

2.  Laughter -  God gave us this ability to have a physical release called laughter that for a moment, brings happiness and joy.  Science can only explain the mechanism behind the act.  There are well documented medical benefits to having a good laugh as well. 

 

3.  Taste buds -  we have up to 8,000 taste buds designed to give us sensations of pleasure with certain tastes.  God certainly didn't have to do this.   Taste of food is not necessary to substain the human body.  Taste doesn't matter to the digestive system.  But we have taste to enjoy a wide variety of foods.

 

4.  Sex -  I don't think anyone will argue with this one.  Sex is an amazing creation.  Our society is obsessed with it.   On a physical level, sex offers many benefits such as stress reduction and lower blood pressure.   It also serves to bring an emotional bond to a couple on a level that can't be experienced any other way.    However, whenevery you mess around with this powerful force outside God's requirements then the act has several consequences.  Spread of STDS, for example.

 

  All of these gifts can be found within the walls of virtually any prison or insane asylum.

 

 

TWD39 wrote:
Yeah, there are many negatives to this existence.

 

I don't need a God to tell me that.

 

TWD39 wrote:
  I believe the introduction of sin is the root of these negatives....

 

What you believe has no effect upon reality.

 

 

TWD39 wrote:
Whenever I think about the gifts, I realize just how ridiculous the belief in evolution really is.  We would have to be extremely lucky for random events to give us such great things to enjoy.  Evolution may have determined the need for a food source, but not the need for taste buds. 

 

              Hee hee ! That's funny.

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.

"When a man loves cats, I am his friend and comrade, without further introduction." Mark Twain.


pauljohntheskeptic
atheistSilver Member
pauljohntheskeptic's picture
Posts: 2484
Joined: 2008-02-26
User is offlineOffline
TWD39 wrote:I've noticed

TWD39 wrote:

I've noticed that atheists tend to be a glass half empty person when it comes to discussions on God.  They put extreme focus on the negative, declaring God to be a brute, unjust, unloving, unmeriful Creator as it this perspective somehow validates the notion that God is a man-made construct.

That's pretty much how believers portray their god they invented. The god of the OT and NT is depicted as a dictator king. If you don't follow his decrees he will eliminate you. Since the god of the Jews which morphed into your Christian invisible buddy was created in the time period where all rulers were kings and the people were subservient in all, the god was made in the image of them. It's the feudal system on steroids.

TWD39 wrote:

I'm here to tilt things back a bit in the other directions.  Over the weekend, I was reminded on just how GOOD God is when reflecting on the gifts of God.  God has given us quite a lot to make it through this life without being completely miserable.  

These are assertions without proof. How do you know the created character of the Jews that morphed into the Christian god exists? The book of storytales told you so, right? Why pick the fantasy tales of a people that likely has all been invented?

TWD39 wrote:

Here are a few in no particular order:

 

1. Gift of Sleep -  Sleep is a wonderful invention.  Not only does it allow our bodies to recharge and renew energies,  sleep gives us an opportunity to shut off from the world.   No matter how tough my life is, I can always look forward to 6-8 hours a night escaping from reality. 

 

2.  Laughter -  God gave us this ability to have a physical release called laughter that for a moment, brings happiness and joy.  Science can only explain the mechanism behind the act.  There are well documented medical benefits to having a good laugh as well. 

 

3.  Taste buds -  we have up to 8,000 taste buds designed to give us sensations of pleasure with certain tastes.  God certainly didn't have to do this.   Taste of food is not necessary to substain the human body.  Taste doesn't matter to the digestive system.  But we have taste to enjoy a wide variety of foods.

 

4.  Sex -  I don't think anyone will argue with this one.  Sex is an amazing creation.  Our society is obsessed with it.   On a physical level, sex offers many benefits such as stress reduction and lower blood pressure.   It also serves to bring an emotional bond to a couple on a level that can't be experienced any other way.    However, whenevery you mess around with this powerful force outside God's requirements then the act has several consequences.  Spread of STDS, for example.

As the Sumerians indicate it was Enki who created man from clay and blood he is also responsible for all that you attribute as gifts from the later created god of the Jews.

Why dismiss the Sumerian storytelling and adhere to the one from the land that never was, Israel, a country that likely never was, at least as detailed in the storytelling myths of the OT.

TWD39 wrote:
 

Yeah, there are many negatives to this existence.  I believe the introduction of sin is the root of these negatives, but God also gave us these gifts to help us make it through each day.  Whenever I think about the gifts, I realize just how ridiculous the belief in evolution really is.  We would have to be extremely lucky for random events to give us such great things to enjoy.  Evolution may have determined the need for a food source, but not the need for taste buds. 

As I tried to point out in as direct a manner as possible, the assertion that the storytales of the Jews as true is unwarranted. Why their stories and not the Sumerian?

What is sin? The Jews don't agree with your view on this. Most Christians ask the god to forgive them but never correct the damage they have done to others.

No god king tyrant dictator, no sin. This doesn't mean causing harm to others is OK, its not. But that is another story.

 

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


tonyjeffers
tonyjeffers's picture
Posts: 482
Joined: 2012-02-14
User is offlineOffline
TWD39

So do you think if I enjoy and just have a general feeling of appreciation for those things, but I tend to find evolution a more plausible explanation for them rather than the stories in the christian bible that I will suffer eternal torture after my body gives out?

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


TWD39
Theist
Posts: 300
Joined: 2012-07-02
User is offlineOffline
If evolution was the true

If evolution was the true origin of life, we would function just like animals, souless creatures acting only on instinct, eating, defecating and reproducing.  I certainly don't see a monkey get teary eyed over appreciating a beautitful sunset.  Evolution would have resulted in a realm of bleak ugliness, not a rainbow of beautiful colors.


danatemporary
danatemporary's picture
Posts: 1532
Joined: 2011-01-12
User is offlineOffline
That cross you bear comes in awful handy

Beyond Saving wrote:

Xtians are always good for a laugh, especially the really wacky ones. I have to admit, you are right here- the concept of god has been a source of a lot of amusement in my life.

TWD39 said, "Doesn't surprise me.  Mockery of Christians is your form of worship.  It somehow makes your non-belief seem more valid"  

 


  TWD39  Gospel Verse 60 "Upon hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"

 

         Headline:  That cross you bear comes in awful handy. 

                                           

                                          Mistake!  Mistake to rob yourself of interaction by this comment of yours, you might have thought.  

 

:

 


Beyond Saving
Silver Member
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 4476
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is onlineOnline
TWD39 wrote:Insomnia is a

TWD39 wrote:

Insomnia is a result of a flawed human body which originated from introducing sin into the world.  The causes are many.   Blaming God for lack of sleep would be the equivalent of blaming God for not gving you the gift of singing.

So why would a loving god create such flawed bodies? If I built a flawed house I wouldn't blame the house when it collapsed. 

 

TWD39 wrote:

Doesn't surprise me.  Mockery of Christians is your form of worship.  It somehow makes your non-belief seem more valid.   

Nah, mocking christians is just an entertaining pass time for me. Actually, it is fairly rare that I bother having a discussion with a christian, you should feel honored. I spend most of my time here in the political forums talking politics and economics. 

 

TWD39 wrote:
 

Wow, such anger and hatred for the living God.  Doesn't surprise me though since you are brainwashed to hate God by Satan.  BTW,  there are many people who find broccoli delicious.  In a modern society, our sinful human bodies crave destructive forces such as harmful processed food.  Sin = death.  It's a simple equation.

Yet you will die just the same if you only eat healthy unprocessed foods. Death is a fact of life and everyone will die no matter how saintly they are according to your book. There are perfectly good reasons why our bodies evolved to desire fat, protein, sugar and salt. To ignore that is to simply ignore reality. 

 

 

TWD39 wrote:

You don't think being faithful to a spouse is a good thing? 

I think it is a stupid promise to make and a rather dull life to live. I think one should be honest with their loved ones so if you make the promise you ought to keep it, but it is best not to make the promise in the first place. Best solution is to never get married, but I don't begrudge those who make bad choices. 

 

TWD39 wrote:

Strip Christianity out of the equation and you still have consequences.  Sex with multiple partners = spread of diseases.

I have never had an STD, there are ways to be careful and to protect yourself even while enjoying multiple partners. 

 

TWD39 wrote:

  It also desensitizes you to the intimacy of the act.  I remember the wrestler Jake the Snake Roberts talking about how he could now longer make love to his wife after having so many sexual encounters and orgies. 

Oh? And you have experience in this matter? Personally, I have found that it has greatly improved my sex life. Sex is a skill, and like any other skill it improves with practice. I know many monogamously married men who no longer have sex with their wives too- there are many things that can happen in a relationship that can negatively affect the sex both in quantity and quality.  

 

TWD39 wrote:
  

1.  You have zero proof that there is no God. 

 

2.  Your great atheist life could change in a second.  To assume that all your future days will be free of pain and misery is to live in a fantasy.

1. You have zero proof that there is no spaghetti monster. As soon as you prove there is no spaghetti monster I will prove there is no god. It can be proven that your old book is contradictory and nonsensical, but I will leave it to those who have more patience than I to deal with those arguments. At least the spaghetti monster story is internally consistent. 

 

2. So? Life changes, my life is not free of pain and misery now though not as much pain and misery as there has been in the past. Certainly, there will be more pain and misery in the future, so what? Pain is as much a part of life as pleasure and I don't ever expect it to go away, I don't think that takes away the greatness of enjoying life. It is the christians that believe someday they will be in a place filled only with pleasure, and as you put it so eloquently, to believe that is to live in a fantasy.  

   

I just usually go with my own taste. If I like something, and it happens to be against the law, well, then I might have a problem.- Hunter S. Thompson


harleysportster
atheist
harleysportster's picture
Posts: 3310
Joined: 2010-10-17
User is offlineOffline
TWD39 wrote: Insomnia is a

TWD39 wrote:

 

Insomnia is a result of a flawed human body which originated from introducing sin into the world.  The causes are many.   Blaming God for lack of sleep would be the equivalent of blaming God for not gving you the gift of singing.

 

 

You mean perfectly logical causes for insomnia like, stress and biological problems are from sin ? How can I blame god for not being able to sing if I don't believe in him ? Might as well blame Santa Clause 

TWD39 wrote:

Doesn't surprise me.  Mockery of Christians is your form of worship.  It somehow makes your non-belief seem more valid.   

 

 

Mockery of christians has never played a part in making my non-belief seem more valid. I came from a staunchly religious family and was a devoutly, fanatically religious person at one time. I no longer believe in any of it. Not because of mockery, but because it doesn't make any logical sense to me. 

TWD39 wrote:

 

  Doesn't surprise me though since you are brainwashed to hate God by Satan.  BTW,  there are many people who find broccoli delicious.  In a modern society, our sinful human bodies crave destructive forces such as harmful processed food.  Sin = death.  It's a simple equation.

Sin equals death ? The wages of sin is death ? I've been hearing that my whole life and see no reason for it. So little children in the hospital with leukemia are dying because of sin ? 

Exactly how is Satan brainwashing anyone if we don't believe in him either ? By the way, I can't hate god, I don't believe he is real. Might as well hate Santa Claus. 

 

 

TWD39 wrote:

You don't think being faithful to a spouse is a good thing?  Strip Christianity out of the equation and you still have consequences.  Sex with multiple partners = spread of diseases.   It also desensitizes you to the intimacy of the act.

What about people that do not have spouses nor want to have relationships ? Why are more secular countries with legalized prostitution lower in STD'S and crime ? 

 

 

TWD39 wrote:
 

 

 

1.  You have zero proof that there is no God. 

 

2.  Your great atheist life could change in a second.  To assume that all your future days will be free of pain and misery is to live in a fantasy.

 

Yet, you have zero proof that there IS a god. To assume that your future eternity after death will be in heaven and bliss is a fantasy. I don't know of any Atheists that believe that life will be free of pain and misery. I have had more than my share. I got the physical and mental scars to prove it. If I live long enough, I will grow old, my body will not function as well as it used to, loved ones and friends will have died before me, and I will one day die. Fact of life. Not a tragic one when you think about it. Our time here on Earth is short, why not enjoy these brief seconds in the span of milleniums rather than think about an afterlife ? 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


danatemporary
danatemporary's picture
Posts: 1532
Joined: 2011-01-12
User is offlineOffline
It isnt over until the Fat Man sings (.. Luciano anyone) :

TWD39 wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

Why doesn't god like insomniacs? 

 

Insomnia is a result of a flawed human body which originated from introducing sin into the world.  The causes are many.   Blaming God for lack of sleep would be the equivalent of blaming God for not giving you the gift of singing.

'Nessun Dorma' is one of the best known songs preformed by Luciano Pavarotti.

Nessun dorma! Nessun dorma!
Tu pure, o, Principessa,
nella tua fredda stanza,
guardi le stelle
che tremano d'amore
e di speranza.
Ma il mio mistero è chiuso in me,
il nome mio nessun saprà!
No, no, sulla tua bocca lo dirò
quando la luce splenderà!
Ed il mio bacio scioglierà il silenzio
che ti fa mia!
(Il nome suo nessun saprà!...
e noi dovrem, ahime, morir!)
Dilegua, o notte!
Tramontate, stelle!
Tramontate, stelle!
All'alba vincerò!
vincerò, vincerò!

English Translation of "Nessun Dorma"

Nobody shall sleep!...
Nobody shall sleep!
Even you, o Princess,
in your cold room,
watch the stars,
that tremble with love and with hope.
But my secret is hidden within me,
my name no one shall know...
No!...No!...
On your mouth I will tell it when the light shines.
And my kiss will dissolve the silence that makes you mine!...
(No one will know his name and we must, alas, die.)
Vanish, o night!
Set, stars! Set, stars!
At dawn, I will win! I will win! I will win!
 


Beyond Saving
Silver Member
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 4476
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is onlineOnline
TWD39 wrote:If evolution was

TWD39 wrote:

If evolution was the true origin of life, we would function just like animals, souless creatures acting only on instinct, eating, defecating and reproducing.  I certainly don't see a monkey get teary eyed over appreciating a beautitful sunset.  Evolution would have resulted in a realm of bleak ugliness, not a rainbow of beautiful colors.

 

Most animals don't have tear ducts, chimpanzees do but they are not the same as ours, they can get watery but don't tear like ours do, so you can see a chimp get teary eyed, but you will never see one cry tears. Some humans are born without tear ducts and are unable to cry tears. Animals do show distress and basic emotions like happiness, excited, fear, anger and sadness as anyone who has ever spent significant time with advanced mammals can tell you. Exactly how complex their emotions are compared to ours is questionable. Animals can exhibit basic personality traits, some are more aggressive, some are meek, some are leaders, some are followers, some are playful, some are shy. 

 

The only thing that really sets us apart from other animals is our cognitive ability to invent and build new things on a scale no other animal has achieved. It is ironic that you make this statement after listing a series of gods "gifts" to us that revolve around sleeping, eating and reproducing, obviously these things play a very important role in your life since you singled them out, they also happen to be things that you share with animals. 

I just usually go with my own taste. If I like something, and it happens to be against the law, well, then I might have a problem.- Hunter S. Thompson


Jabberwocky
atheist
Posts: 324
Joined: 2012-04-21
User is onlineOnline
TWD39 wrote:If evolution was

TWD39 wrote:

If evolution was the true origin of life, we would function just like animals, souless creatures acting only on instinct, eating, defecating and reproducing.  I certainly don't see a monkey get teary eyed over appreciating a beautitful sunset.  Evolution would have resulted in a realm of bleak ugliness, not a rainbow of beautiful colors.

Evolution isn't the origin of life. It's the means by which life became more diverse and advanced. The greatest thing to happen to us was that our brains evolved to give us the ability to create meaning outside of pure survival and reproduction. If you think evolution would have resulted in a realm of bleak ugliness, I think you don't understand how it works. Read about it sometime. It's incredibly fascinating, and it's important to our knowledge of how we work.

Quote:
Insomnia is a result of a flawed human body which originated from introducing sin into the world.  The causes are many.   Blaming God for lack of sleep would be the equivalent of blaming God for not gving you the gift of singing.

What is THE worst apologetic piece of garbage ever? The above quoted argument. What would you say about somebody who deliberately punished you for something I did? I don't think you would call them just, would you? In fact, I think you would think quite the opposite of such a person. Now this god, who sees all of course, is punishing insomniacs for something that not only someone else did, but somebody thousands of years ago that an insomniac today had NO chance to help prevent. It's seriously the weakest argument ever.

Theists - If your god is omnipotent, remember the following: He (or she) has the cure for cancer, but won't tell us what it is.


TWD39
Theist
Posts: 300
Joined: 2012-07-02
User is offlineOffline
Jabberwocky wrote:TWD39

Jabberwocky wrote:

TWD39 wrote:

If evolution was the true origin of life, we would function just like animals, souless creatures acting only on instinct, eating, defecating and reproducing.  I certainly don't see a monkey get teary eyed over appreciating a beautitful sunset.  Evolution would have resulted in a realm of bleak ugliness, not a rainbow of beautiful colors.

Evolution isn't the origin of life. It's the means by which life became more diverse and advanced. The greatest thing to happen to us was that our brains evolved to give us the ability to create meaning outside of pure survival and reproduction. If you think evolution would have resulted in a realm of bleak ugliness, I think you don't understand how it works. Read about it sometime. It's incredibly fascinating, and it's important to our knowledge of how we work.

Quote:
Insomnia is a result of a flawed human body which originated from introducing sin into the world.  The causes are many.   Blaming God for lack of sleep would be the equivalent of blaming God for not gving you the gift of singing.

What is THE worst apologetic piece of garbage ever? The above quoted argument. What would you say about somebody who deliberately punished you for something I did? I don't think you would call them just, would you? In fact, I think you would think quite the opposite of such a person. Now this god, who sees all of course, is punishing insomniacs for something that not only someone else did, but somebody thousands of years ago that an insomniac today had NO chance to help prevent. It's seriously the weakest argument ever.

Man brought sin in this world, not God.  Death is a natural consequence of sin.  I'm sorry if your dead immoral spiritual eyes are incapable of seeing this truth.   Then OTOH, if GOd had not punished man, atheists would be all over God for being a liar since He warned that man would surely die if they commited this act of disobedience.


Jabberwocky
atheist
Posts: 324
Joined: 2012-04-21
User is onlineOnline
TWD39 wrote:Man brought sin

TWD39 wrote:

Man brought sin in this world, not God.  Death is a natural consequence of sin.  I'm sorry if your dead immoral spiritual eyes are incapable of seeing this truth.   Then OTOH, if GOd had not punished man, atheists would be all over God for being a liar since He warned that man would surely die if they commited this act of disobedience.

Why are you and I being punished for something done by another person before we were born? 

As far as the last sentence there, well yes we would, but we'd give that logical fallacy equal time with the others (which we regularly point out, and theists ignore or brush off without ever giving satisfactory explanations)

Theists - If your god is omnipotent, remember the following: He (or she) has the cure for cancer, but won't tell us what it is.


Beyond Saving
Silver Member
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 4476
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is onlineOnline
TWD39 wrote:Man brought sin

TWD39 wrote:

Man brought sin in this world, not God.  Death is a natural consequence of sin.  I'm sorry if your dead immoral spiritual eyes are incapable of seeing this truth.   Then OTOH, if GOd had not punished man, atheists would be all over God for being a liar since He warned that man would surely die if they commited this act of disobedience.

 

If we could live forever, would you want to?

I just usually go with my own taste. If I like something, and it happens to be against the law, well, then I might have a problem.- Hunter S. Thompson


ProzacDeathWish
atheist
ProzacDeathWish's picture
Posts: 3625
Joined: 2007-12-02
User is offlineOffline
Beyond Saving wrote: If we

Beyond Saving wrote:

 

If we could live forever, would you want to?

                          

 

                   Phfft, hell no.

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.

"When a man loves cats, I am his friend and comrade, without further introduction." Mark Twain.


harleysportster
atheist
harleysportster's picture
Posts: 3310
Joined: 2010-10-17
User is offlineOffline
TWD39 wrote: Man brought

TWD39 wrote:

 

Man brought sin in this world, not God.  Death is a natural consequence of sin.  I'm sorry if your dead immoral spiritual eyes are incapable of seeing this truth.   Then OTOH, if GOd had not punished man, atheists would be all over God for being a liar since He warned that man would surely die if they commited this act of disobedience.

If the painting is bad, do you blame the paint or the painter ? 

If the watch doesn't keep time, do you blame the watch or the watchmaker ? 

If the creations are inherently immoral and in need of punishment, then it would stand to reason that it's creator is inherently immoral and deserving of punishment. 

What kind of a screwed up being would create things for the sole purpose of praying to it, and thanking it, for it's whole entire existence ? 

God did not have to plant that tree in the Garden. AND, if god knows everything, he knew that man would fall short. So he is worse than a liar, he is a deceitful sadist. 

Would you deliberately set up tests for your children if you KNEW that they were bound to fail them and then punish them forever ? That's pretty evil, twisted and perverse if you ask me. 

I often wonder how people can make the presumption that atheists must have a pessimistic view of the world when christianity seems to have the most abhorrent view of humanity and the world. 

I would argue, that christianity is so bleak and foreboding, that christians have to INVENT reasons to be positive. How else could they exist under such a horrifying tyranny ? 

 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


Ktulu
atheist
Posts: 1830
Joined: 2010-12-21
User is offlineOffline
You do realize that atheists

You do realize that atheists are as "pessimistic" regarding your god, as they are regarding any other god, such as Zeus, Ktulu, or Allah.  Atheists are not theists, theists are defined as individuals that believe in at least one deity.  I think it is always important to establish such rudimentary fundamental concepts when attempting criticism.  

Within our newly defined epistemic paradigm, how is one to be a "half empty type of person" regarding a non existent entity?  Do you mean this theoretically? Perhaps I am regarding supposed god pessimistically as I would a villain in a novel?  Are you implying that atheists consider god an evil protagonist, as opposed to a hero?

It is rather a vague concept you're attempting, but I do believe an ontological proof is needed before one could consider the moral compass of any concept. 

As for the rest of your drivel, I do hope it is an attempt at levity.  Logical contradictions are often used to point out irony.  Reductio ad absurdum and all that jazz.  If that's the case I await the conclusion of your witty proposition, and I apologize for having thought you illogical.

 

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


ex-minister
atheistHigh Level ModeratorSilver Member
ex-minister's picture
Posts: 1708
Joined: 2010-01-29
User is offlineOffline
TWD39 wrote:If evolution was

TWD39 wrote:

If evolution was the true origin of life, we would function just like animals, souless creatures acting only on instinct, eating, defecating and reproducing.  I certainly don't see a monkey get teary eyed over appreciating a beautitful sunset.  Evolution would have resulted in a realm of bleak ugliness, not a rainbow of beautiful colors.

Bonobos with Apps

http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/apes-with-apps/0

 

More details about Kanzi. He blows up a ballon and some other cool stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKauXrp9dl4&feature=related

 

 

 

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


ex-minister
atheistHigh Level ModeratorSilver Member
ex-minister's picture
Posts: 1708
Joined: 2010-01-29
User is offlineOffline
Animal Sense of Fairness

Animal Sense Of Fairness


Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


ex-minister
atheistHigh Level ModeratorSilver Member
ex-minister's picture
Posts: 1708
Joined: 2010-01-29
User is offlineOffline
Bonobo plays Pac-Man

Bonobo plays Pac-Man


Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


latincanuck
atheist
latincanuck's picture
Posts: 2036
Joined: 2007-06-01
User is offlineOffline
Regarding the OP I will say

Regarding the OP I will say this, first and foremost you have to eliminate evolutionary process as the way in which all those things you mentioned arose in humans (and of course other living organisms) which then of course you have would have to eliminate another other natural explanation for who those arose if and I mean IF you can scientifically eliminate evolution (which in the process would garner you fame and possibly a noble prize as well) and any other scientific explanation. Then if the only option left is a supernatural deity you have to go through the process of eliminating all the other gods and goddess out there before being able to declare your version of god as the only possible explanation for all of this to have occurred.

As for the rest of a kind god, well he isn't, not even close, there is enough in the bible to explain to why he is more like a petty dictator than a kind god.


TWD39
Theist
Posts: 300
Joined: 2012-07-02
User is offlineOffline
Beyond Saving wrote: So why

Beyond Saving wrote:

 

So why would a loving god create such flawed bodies? If I built a flawed house I wouldn't blame the house when it collapsed. 

 

God didn't create flawed bodies.  The first man was designed to be immortal.  However, he introduced sin into this world which totally changed our physical reality. 

 

 

 

TWD39 wrote:

 

Nah, mocking christians is just an entertaining pass time for me. Actually, it is fairly rare that I bother having a discussion with a christian, you should feel honored. I spend most of my time here in the political forums talking politics and economics. 

I've dealt with another of your dark ilk to know any discussions are pointless.  You are programmed to always disagree with a Christian, and never admit that there is a single shred of goodness in the Christian faith.  Atheists of your caliber are extremely closed minded.

 

 

 

TWD39 wrote:
 

Yet you will die just the same if you only eat healthy unprocessed foods. Death is a fact of life and everyone will die no matter how saintly they are according to your book. There are perfectly good reasons why our bodies evolved to desire fat, protein, sugar and salt. To ignore that is to simply ignore reality. 

Yet, you will berate God for not curing every illness when the reality is He is just delaying the inevitable. 

 

 

TWD39 wrote:

I think it is a stupid promise to make and a rather dull life to live. I think one should be honest with their loved ones so if you make the promise you ought to keep it, but it is best not to make the promise in the first place. Best solution is to never get married, but I don't begrudge those who make bad choices. 

 

Wow, talk about a lack of morals.

 

TWD39 wrote:

I have never had an STD, there are ways to be careful and to protect yourself even while enjoying multiple partners. 

 

 

That's called being lucky.  Your luck could run out any time.  No matter how you spin it, you are gambling with your life.  And yes, people get STDS even when using protection. 

 

 

Beyond Saving wrote:

1. You have zero proof that there is no spaghetti monster. As soon as you prove there is no spaghetti monster I will prove there is no god. It can be proven that your old book is contradictory and nonsensical, but I will leave it to those who have more patience than I to deal with those arguments. At least the spaghetti monster story is internally consistent. 

 

Actually there is clear evidence demonstrating that the spaghetti monster is a mockery creation designed by atheists.  It can be traced as a satirical letter to the Kansas Board of Education by Bobby Henderson.  There is zero evidence that it is real.   Do you have equally strong evidence to show me that the Bible is a complete work of fiction and God is a man made construct?  There is quite a bit of evidence to suggest that God is real.    None for your spaghetti monster.


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13591
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
TWD39 wrote:I've noticed

TWD39 wrote:

I've noticed that atheists tend to be a glass half empty person when it comes to discussions on God.  They put extreme focus on the negative, declaring God to be a brute, unjust, unloving, unmeriful Creator as it this perspective somehow validates the notion that God is a man-made construct.

 

I'm here to tilt things back a bit in the other directions.  Over the weekend, I was reminded on just how GOOD God is when reflecting on the gifts of God.  God has given us quite a lot to make it through this life without being completely miserable.   

 

Here are a few in no particular order:

 

1. Gift of Sleep -  Sleep is a wonderful invention.  Not only does it allow our bodies to recharge and renew energies,  sleep gives us an opportunity to shut off from the world.   No matter how tough my life is, I can always look forward to 6-8 hours a night escaping from reality. 

 

2.  Laughter -  God gave us this ability to have a physical release called laughter that for a moment, brings happiness and joy.  Science can only explain the mechanism behind the act.  There are well documented medical benefits to having a good laugh as well. 

 

3.  Taste buds -  we have up to 8,000 taste buds designed to give us sensations of pleasure with certain tastes.  God certainly didn't have to do this.   Taste of food is not necessary to substain the human body.  Taste doesn't matter to the digestive system.  But we have taste to enjoy a wide variety of foods.

 

4.  Sex -  I don't think anyone will argue with this one.  Sex is an amazing creation.  Our society is obsessed with it.   On a physical level, sex offers many benefits such as stress reduction and lower blood pressure.   It also serves to bring an emotional bond to a couple on a level that can't be experienced any other way.    However, whenevery you mess around with this powerful force outside God's requirements then the act has several consequences.  Spread of STDS, for example.

 

Yeah, there are many negatives to this existence.  I believe the introduction of sin is the root of these negatives, but God also gave us these gifts to help us make it through each day.  Whenever I think about the gifts, I realize just how ridiculous the belief in evolution really is.  We would have to be extremely lucky for random events to give us such great things to enjoy.  Evolution may have determined the need for a food source, but not the need for taste buds. 

 

I hate the way theists try to falsely paint the atheist as pessimistic. That would be like the Church saying to Galileo "You are just a half glass full guy, what is wrong with believing false things?"

First off, as an atheist I can be BOTH optimistic and pessimistic DEPENDING on specific topic matter.

 

I have seen the positive side of humanity when it questions and bucks social norms it progresses. I am optimistic in that our species is capable of that. But do we do that enough, and will we always? Evolution produces BOTH questioning which has made progress, and clinging to the past.

 

So do not pull this bullshit that atheist are negative.

 

Neil Degrass Tyson, astrophysicist would not want a person like you in his lab. He would not want someone to hit a ceiling in knowledge and give up and say "thats all we can know, god did it". Science is the attitude that you do not give up. It is the attitude that you keep your mind open and learn from your failures and be willing to admit when you are wrong.

 

But as far as the god character doing good? Mob bosses do that too, they treat you well as long as you obey them and even reward you for your loyalty. But cross them or question them, and they get quite nasty.

 

But do not sit there and say skepticism is pessimistic. It is the very thing that is the key that breaks the shackles and expands human knowledge. If humans never questioned social norms our species never would have left the caves. So do not give me any bullshit about atheists being negative. Clinging to the past in the face of better data is childish and pessimistic. It teaches you to be satisfied with fantasy and mere tradition.

 

"God can do good", you certainly can find nice stories in the bible. But it seems half assed and selective and arbitrary and at the cost of the blood of the "out group". I hardly find a shitty cherry picking job positive or even moral. I wouldn't hire such a claimed god to run a factory, the bicycles would have squid as spokes and PBJs as seats, and the workers would murder each other over how to assemble it.

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13591
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
TWD39 wrote:I've noticed

TWD39 wrote:

I've noticed that atheists tend to be a glass half empty person when it comes to discussions on God.  They put extreme focus on the negative, declaring God to be a brute, unjust, unloving, unmeriful Creator as it this perspective somehow validates the notion that God is a man-made construct.

 

I'm here to tilt things back a bit in the other directions.  Over the weekend, I was reminded on just how GOOD God is when reflecting on the gifts of God.  God has given us quite a lot to make it through this life without being completely miserable.   

 

Here are a few in no particular order:

 

1. Gift of Sleep -  Sleep is a wonderful invention.  Not only does it allow our bodies to recharge and renew energies,  sleep gives us an opportunity to shut off from the world.   No matter how tough my life is, I can always look forward to 6-8 hours a night escaping from reality. 

 

2.  Laughter -  God gave us this ability to have a physical release called laughter that for a moment, brings happiness and joy.  Science can only explain the mechanism behind the act.  There are well documented medical benefits to having a good laugh as well. 

 

3.  Taste buds -  we have up to 8,000 taste buds designed to give us sensations of pleasure with certain tastes.  God certainly didn't have to do this.   Taste of food is not necessary to substain the human body.  Taste doesn't matter to the digestive system.  But we have taste to enjoy a wide variety of foods.

 

4.  Sex -  I don't think anyone will argue with this one.  Sex is an amazing creation.  Our society is obsessed with it.   On a physical level, sex offers many benefits such as stress reduction and lower blood pressure.   It also serves to bring an emotional bond to a couple on a level that can't be experienced any other way.    However, whenevery you mess around with this powerful force outside God's requirements then the act has several consequences.  Spread of STDS, for example.

 

Yeah, there are many negatives to this existence.  I believe the introduction of sin is the root of these negatives, but God also gave us these gifts to help us make it through each day.  Whenever I think about the gifts, I realize just how ridiculous the belief in evolution really is.  We would have to be extremely lucky for random events to give us such great things to enjoy.  Evolution may have determined the need for a food source, but not the need for taste buds. 

 

Let me add, none of what you mention above are "inventions". They are manifestations of evolution. Sleep is merely evolutions "recharging the batteries", it feels nice in the morning to have energy. HOWEVER, on average, most humans waste 1/3 of their lives sleeping, so where is the benefit in wasted time? If god existed, wouldn't it make more sense to make humans so they did not have to sleep?

Laughter? Is no different than sadness, both are evolutionary coping mechanisms. Laughter isn't always good, like when a homophobe jokes about gays. It may give comfort to the bigot, but "faggot" isn't funny to gays.

Sex is an amazing creation? It wasn't "created", some species don't have sex to reproduce. And while it feels good SOMETIMES, it comes with a lot of negatives that most people stupidly don't face, which if they did could positively avoid.

 

Hormones are a fucking bitch when you are young and boys and girls often do stupid shit for that "amazing creation" and end up with an unwanted baby, or a baby in poverty, or a disease that could get them killed". Saying sex is "amazing" is shallow and stupid and dangerous. You are putting something that has both good and bad to it and making the stupid negative thing by attaching a utopia to it. Sex is sex, and sex has BOTH and upside and downside. But it is not an "invention".

Quote:
I believe the introduction of sin is the root of these negatives,

No, there is no such thing as "sin". There are merely credulous humans who think the good and bad that happen in life is a cosmic battle over the neurons in your brain between Superman vs Lex Luthor. Your utopia bullshit is what leads gullible people to  do stupid shit.

 

Informed decisions and consent are what allow people to make better life choices. Life is not a fucking movie where Roy Rogers rides off into the sunset. Assigning life to a Disney outcome that does not exist is what is negative. Studying BOTH the good and bad in life without assigning it to comic book super heros is how our species have crawled out of the caves.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Beyond Saving
Silver Member
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 4476
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is onlineOnline
TWD39 wrote:Beyond Saving

TWD39 wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

So why would a loving god create such flawed bodies? If I built a flawed house I wouldn't blame the house when it collapsed. 

 

God didn't create flawed bodies.  The first man was designed to be immortal.  However, he introduced sin into this world which totally changed our physical reality. 

So man found a way around an omnipotent, all knowing god? If a god created us, and we are imperfect, how can it be any fault but his? Either the god is imperfect (and therefore by definition is not god) or god intentionally created us to be imperfect, in which case being imperfect is hardly a surprise. Or the most obvious answer, there is no god that created us and we are imperfect because we were not intentionally created by anything. 

 

TWD39 wrote:

I've dealt with another of your dark ilk to know any discussions are pointless.  You are programmed to always disagree with a Christian, and never admit that there is a single shred of goodness in the Christian faith.  Atheists of your caliber are extremely closed minded.

 

Says the man who refers to me as "dark" knowing absolutely nothing about me other than me being an atheist. Pot meet kettle. I never said there was nothing good about christianity. For some people it has no doubt made them better people. Some christians on here have said if they were not christian they would be serial killers so in that case I am glad they have their beliefs. That doesn't make their beliefs any more true. 

 

 

TWD39 wrote:
 

Yet, you will berate God for not curing every illness when the reality is He is just delaying the inevitable. 

 

I don't berate god, I don't think he exists. However, good people dying painful deaths while cruel people life long luxurious lives is a good reason to doubt the existence of an omnipotent and moral being. The being is either not omnipotent, or doesn't care about the horrors that many wonderful people face on a daily basis. Either way, if that being did exist I don't see a reason why I should grovel at his feet and worship him. And according to you, death is only inevitable because of him.

 

TWD39 wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

I think it is a stupid promise to make and a rather dull life to live. I think one should be honest with their loved ones so if you make the promise you ought to keep it, but it is best not to make the promise in the first place. Best solution is to never get married, but I don't begrudge those who make bad choices. 

 

Wow, talk about a lack of morals.

 

I get that a lot from close minded people like you, but I don't really care if you agree with my morality, I don't agree with yours. As long as you don't try to pass laws to force me to live your way I have no problem. 

 

TWD39 wrote:
 

That's called being lucky.  Your luck could run out any time.  No matter how you spin it, you are gambling with your life.  And yes, people get STDS even when using protection. 

Well every time I get into a car I am gambling with my life. In fact, statistically speaking a car accident is by far the most likely way for me to die right now. If you take precautions getting an STD, especially a serious one that can't be easily treated is unlikely. Sure it is a risk, but a minor one and worth every minute. There are dozens of equal risks to your life and/or health you probably take every day without thinking about it. Going through life worrying about every bad thing that could happen to you doesn't seem like a good way to live to me. You take sensible precautions and if something bad happens you deal with it. That's life. 

 

 

TWD39 wrote:

Actually there is clear evidence demonstrating that the spaghetti monster is a mockery creation designed by atheists.  It can be traced as a satirical letter to the Kansas Board of Education by Bobby Henderson.  There is zero evidence that it is real.   Do you have equally strong evidence to show me that the Bible is a complete work of fiction and God is a man made construct?  There is quite a bit of evidence to suggest that God is real.    None for your spaghetti monster.

The only evidence you have for your god is a really old book. Evidence that the bible is fiction? Read it. You have evidence that god is real? Outside of just the bible? Or is everything you have reliant on a book that tells stories of magic? So far you have just made assertions that god created A B & C with no evidence whatsoever. I am open to consider any evidence you might have but don't start regurgitating bible verses at me. It has as much credibility as someone telling me Hogwarts is real and reading the Harry Potter series to me or perhaps a better analogy is someone telling me that Grendel is real and reading from Beowulf as if it were fact.  

I just usually go with my own taste. If I like something, and it happens to be against the law, well, then I might have a problem.- Hunter S. Thompson


Ktulu
atheist
Posts: 1830
Joined: 2010-12-21
User is offlineOffline
Beyond Saving wrote:TWD39

Beyond Saving wrote:

TWD39 wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

So why would a loving god create such flawed bodies? If I built a flawed house I wouldn't blame the house when it collapsed. 

 

God didn't create flawed bodies.  The first man was designed to be immortal.  However, he introduced sin into this world which totally changed our physical reality. 

So man found a way around an omnipotent, all knowing god? If a god created us, and we are imperfect, how can it be any fault but his? Either the god is imperfect (and therefore by definition is not god) or god intentionally created us to be imperfect, in which case being imperfect is hardly a surprise. Or the most obvious answer, there is no god that created us and we are imperfect because we were not intentionally created by anything. 

 

TWD39 wrote:

I've dealt with another of your dark ilk to know any discussions are pointless.  You are programmed to always disagree with a Christian, and never admit that there is a single shred of goodness in the Christian faith.  Atheists of your caliber are extremely closed minded.

 

Says the man who refers to me as "dark" knowing absolutely nothing about me other than me being an atheist. Pot meet kettle. I never said there was nothing good about christianity. For some people it has no doubt made them better people. Some christians on here have said if they were not christian they would be serial killers so in that case I am glad they have their beliefs. That doesn't make their beliefs any more true. 

 

 

TWD39 wrote:
 

Yet, you will berate God for not curing every illness when the reality is He is just delaying the inevitable. 

 

I don't berate god, I don't think he exists. However, good people dying painful deaths while cruel people life long luxurious lives is a good reason to doubt the existence of an omnipotent and moral being. The being is either not omnipotent, or doesn't care about the horrors that many wonderful people face on a daily basis. Either way, if that being did exist I don't see a reason why I should grovel at his feet and worship him. And according to you, death is only inevitable because of him.

 

TWD39 wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

I think it is a stupid promise to make and a rather dull life to live. I think one should be honest with their loved ones so if you make the promise you ought to keep it, but it is best not to make the promise in the first place. Best solution is to never get married, but I don't begrudge those who make bad choices. 

 

Wow, talk about a lack of morals.

 

I get that a lot from close minded people like you, but I don't really care if you agree with my morality, I don't agree with yours. As long as you don't try to pass laws to force me to live your way I have no problem. 

 

TWD39 wrote:
 

That's called being lucky.  Your luck could run out any time.  No matter how you spin it, you are gambling with your life.  And yes, people get STDS even when using protection. 

Well every time I get into a car I am gambling with my life. In fact, statistically speaking a car accident is by far the most likely way for me to die right now. If you take precautions getting an STD, especially a serious one that can't be easily treated is unlikely. Sure it is a risk, but a minor one and worth every minute. There are dozens of equal risks to your life and/or health you probably take every day without thinking about it. Going through life worrying about every bad thing that could happen to you doesn't seem like a good way to live to me. You take sensible precautions and if something bad happens you deal with it. That's life. 

 

 

TWD39 wrote:

Actually there is clear evidence demonstrating that the spaghetti monster is a mockery creation designed by atheists.  It can be traced as a satirical letter to the Kansas Board of Education by Bobby Henderson.  There is zero evidence that it is real.   Do you have equally strong evidence to show me that the Bible is a complete work of fiction and God is a man made construct?  There is quite a bit of evidence to suggest that God is real.    None for your spaghetti monster.

The only evidence you have for your god is a really old book. Evidence that the bible is fiction? Read it. You have evidence that god is real? Outside of just the bible? Or is everything you have reliant on a book that tells stories of magic? So far you have just made assertions that god created A B & C with no evidence whatsoever. I am open to consider any evidence you might have but don't start regurgitating bible verses at me. It has as much credibility as someone telling me Hogwarts is real and reading the Harry Potter series to me or perhaps a better analogy is someone telling me that Grendel is real and reading from Beowulf as if it were fact.  

+1

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13591
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Beyond Saving wrote:TWD39

Beyond Saving wrote:

TWD39 wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

So why would a loving god create such flawed bodies? If I built a flawed house I wouldn't blame the house when it collapsed. 

 

God didn't create flawed bodies.  The first man was designed to be immortal.  However, he introduced sin into this world which totally changed our physical reality. 

So man found a way around an omnipotent, all knowing god? If a god created us, and we are imperfect, how can it be any fault but his? Either the god is imperfect (and therefore by definition is not god) or god intentionally created us to be imperfect, in which case being imperfect is hardly a surprise. Or the most obvious answer, there is no god that created us and we are imperfect because we were not intentionally created by anything. 

 

TWD39 wrote:

I've dealt with another of your dark ilk to know any discussions are pointless.  You are programmed to always disagree with a Christian, and never admit that there is a single shred of goodness in the Christian faith.  Atheists of your caliber are extremely closed minded.

 

Says the man who refers to me as "dark" knowing absolutely nothing about me other than me being an atheist. Pot meet kettle. I never said there was nothing good about christianity. For some people it has no doubt made them better people. Some christians on here have said if they were not christian they would be serial killers so in that case I am glad they have their beliefs. That doesn't make their beliefs any more true. 

 

 

TWD39 wrote:
 

Yet, you will berate God for not curing every illness when the reality is He is just delaying the inevitable. 

 

I don't berate god, I don't think he exists. However, good people dying painful deaths while cruel people life long luxurious lives is a good reason to doubt the existence of an omnipotent and moral being. The being is either not omnipotent, or doesn't care about the horrors that many wonderful people face on a daily basis. Either way, if that being did exist I don't see a reason why I should grovel at his feet and worship him. And according to you, death is only inevitable because of him.

 

TWD39 wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

I think it is a stupid promise to make and a rather dull life to live. I think one should be honest with their loved ones so if you make the promise you ought to keep it, but it is best not to make the promise in the first place. Best solution is to never get married, but I don't begrudge those who make bad choices. 

 

Wow, talk about a lack of morals.

 

I get that a lot from close minded people like you, but I don't really care if you agree with my morality, I don't agree with yours. As long as you don't try to pass laws to force me to live your way I have no problem. 

 

TWD39 wrote:
 

That's called being lucky.  Your luck could run out any time.  No matter how you spin it, you are gambling with your life.  And yes, people get STDS even when using protection. 

Well every time I get into a car I am gambling with my life. In fact, statistically speaking a car accident is by far the most likely way for me to die right now. If you take precautions getting an STD, especially a serious one that can't be easily treated is unlikely. Sure it is a risk, but a minor one and worth every minute. There are dozens of equal risks to your life and/or health you probably take every day without thinking about it. Going through life worrying about every bad thing that could happen to you doesn't seem like a good way to live to me. You take sensible precautions and if something bad happens you deal with it. That's life. 

 

 

TWD39 wrote:

Actually there is clear evidence demonstrating that the spaghetti monster is a mockery creation designed by atheists.  It can be traced as a satirical letter to the Kansas Board of Education by Bobby Henderson.  There is zero evidence that it is real.   Do you have equally strong evidence to show me that the Bible is a complete work of fiction and God is a man made construct?  There is quite a bit of evidence to suggest that God is real.    None for your spaghetti monster.

The only evidence you have for your god is a really old book. Evidence that the bible is fiction? Read it. You have evidence that god is real? Outside of just the bible? Or is everything you have reliant on a book that tells stories of magic? So far you have just made assertions that god created A B & C with no evidence whatsoever. I am open to consider any evidence you might have but don't start regurgitating bible verses at me. It has as much credibility as someone telling me Hogwarts is real and reading the Harry Potter series to me or perhaps a better analogy is someone telling me that Grendel is real and reading from Beowulf as if it were fact.  

Damn you Beyond, I hate it when I agree with you. Don't you have a lolly pop to steal from Maggie from the Simpsons? DAMN YOU! STOP HUMANIZING YOURSELF TO ME! I HATE YOU! You do realize this changes nothing on the other subject.

Make you a deal, lets stick together combating magic and bullshit, and keep the economic boxing you and I have separate? Plus the way you talk, we could have a great time hanging out at a bar watching an NFL game arguing over owner vs player rights. But you are paying! LOL

Regardless of our differences, hats off to this argument. It cannot be said enough.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Beyond Saving
Silver Member
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 4476
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is onlineOnline
Brian37 wrote:But you are

Brian37 wrote:

But you are paying! LOL

Commie.

I just usually go with my own taste. If I like something, and it happens to be against the law, well, then I might have a problem.- Hunter S. Thompson


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13591
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Beyond Saving wrote:Brian37

Beyond Saving wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

But you are paying! LOL

Commie.

Damned right, why by the mug when you can get the keg for free? You are already godless, you just need to take the final step to fascism. COME TO THE DARK SIDE LUKE!

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


harleysportster
atheist
harleysportster's picture
Posts: 3310
Joined: 2010-10-17
User is offlineOffline
Beyond Saving wrote:Brian37

Beyond Saving wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

But you are paying! LOL

Commie.

Wait a minute, I thought all of us Atheists were supposed to be communists ? At least where I live, I have to hear : " secular values, communist leaning, hate-filled, abortion-loving, homosexual supporting, evil people that took prayer out of the schools and the ten commandments off courthouse walls and therefore the reason why society is in such a terrifying state of dystopian horror that it currently is in,". 

My my, I had no idea I stood for all of that. 

And now, in defense of a loving Big Brother tyrant that wants you to worship him forever or burn in eternal torture, I am a half-glass empty kinda guy. 

I never pay attention to whether or not the glass is half full or empty, I just drink the glass and either get a refill or do not. 

I'd say " In Defense of a Loving God" needs some real good attorneys to argue that case. If they can establish such a defense, and a convincing enough one for a jury to decide that it IS the case, I want those guys as lawyers when I go before god to answer for all of my evil deeds. 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


TWD39
Theist
Posts: 300
Joined: 2012-07-02
User is offlineOffline
harleysportster wrote:Beyond

harleysportster wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

But you are paying! LOL

Commie.

Wait a minute, I thought all of us Atheists were supposed to be communists ? At least where I live, I have to hear : " secular values, communist leaning, hate-filled, abortion-loving, homosexual supporting, evil people that took prayer out of the schools and the ten commandments off courthouse walls and therefore the reason why society is in such a terrifying state of dystopian horror that it currently is in,". 

My my, I had no idea I stood for all of that. 

And now, in defense of a loving Big Brother tyrant that wants you to worship him forever or burn in eternal torture, I am a half-glass empty kinda guy. 

I never pay attention to whether or not the glass is half full or empty, I just drink the glass and either get a refill or do not. 

I'd say " In Defense of a Loving God" needs some real good attorneys to argue that case. If they can establish such a defense, and a convincing enough one for a jury to decide that it IS the case, I want those guys as lawyers when I go before god to answer for all of my evil deeds. 

 

 

Typical atheist garbage mockery.   Your responses only reforce my negative stereotypes.  Atheists are not nice people.


TWD39
Theist
Posts: 300
Joined: 2012-07-02
User is offlineOffline
Beyond Saving wrote:The only

Beyond Saving wrote:

The only evidence you have for your god is a really old book. Evidence that the bible is fiction? Read it. You have evidence that god is real? Outside of just the bible? Or is everything you have reliant on a book that tells stories of magic? So far you have just made assertions that god created A B & C with no evidence whatsoever. I am open to consider any evidence you might have but don't start regurgitating bible verses at me. It has as much credibility as someone telling me Hogwarts is real and reading the Harry Potter series to me or perhaps a better analogy is someone telling me that Grendel is real and reading from Beowulf as if it were fact.  

 

Well no, there are the countless examples of divine healling, power of prayer, transformed lives, supernatural encounters with angels and demons on top of the divine nature of the Bible.  Your statement that the Bible is just a bunch of stories of magic is one of ignorance.  At the very least, you have to accept the Bible as a historical record.   Hundreds of archaeological finds have been made to SUPPORT not disprove the Bible.  The Bible also has hundreds of fullfilled prophecies that would be astronomically impossible as a whole to write off as mere concidence.

And just today, you have this story:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/03/ex-fbi-employee-claims-saw-angels-at-flight-3/

 

Course, in your brainwashed mind, you have to automatically reject it and claim that she is a liar even though you have ZERO proof to make such a claim.


harleysportster
atheist
harleysportster's picture
Posts: 3310
Joined: 2010-10-17
User is offlineOffline
TWD39 wrote:  Typical

TWD39 wrote:

 

 

Typical atheist garbage mockery.   Your responses only reforce my negative stereotypes.  Atheists are not nice people.

Typical Christian humorless Puritanical attitude. You only reinforce my negative stereotypes about the hypocrites in the religion that I was raised with and had to leave. 

Christians are not nice people. 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


Ktulu
atheist
Posts: 1830
Joined: 2010-12-21
User is offlineOffline
TWD39 wrote:harleysportster

TWD39 wrote:

harleysportster wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

But you are paying! LOL

Commie.

Wait a minute, I thought all of us Atheists were supposed to be communists ? At least where I live, I have to hear : " secular values, communist leaning, hate-filled, abortion-loving, homosexual supporting, evil people that took prayer out of the schools and the ten commandments off courthouse walls and therefore the reason why society is in such a terrifying state of dystopian horror that it currently is in,". 

My my, I had no idea I stood for all of that. 

And now, in defense of a loving Big Brother tyrant that wants you to worship him forever or burn in eternal torture, I am a half-glass empty kinda guy. 

I never pay attention to whether or not the glass is half full or empty, I just drink the glass and either get a refill or do not. 

I'd say " In Defense of a Loving God" needs some real good attorneys to argue that case. If they can establish such a defense, and a convincing enough one for a jury to decide that it IS the case, I want those guys as lawyers when I go before god to answer for all of my evil deeds. 

 

 

Typical atheist garbage mockery.   Your responses only reforce my negative stereotypes.  Atheists are not nice people.

That's actually quite amusing.  You actually think that your opinion matters Smiling, that's cute.  hehe.  Your typical avoidance of any relevant rebuttals, and constant mindless drivel reinforce the stereotype that religion is often equated with lower IQ.   But then again, stereotypes are something religious individuals usually resort to.  Us evil atheists like to take consider each person as an individual and not make up our mind regarding someone, based on their belief, or lack there of.  That's something an idiot would do (look it up in the dictionary,  you'll understand what I mean).  You're not an idiot are you TWD? 

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


danatemporary
danatemporary's picture
Posts: 1532
Joined: 2011-01-12
User is offlineOffline
What is supported in the Bible ? What ?

TWD39 wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

The only evidence you have for your god is ..as much credibility as someone telling me Hogwarts is real and reading the Harry Potter series to me or perhaps a better analogy is someone telling me that Grendel is real and reading from Beowulf as if it were fact.  

  At the very least  .. Hundreds of archaeological finds have been made to SUPPORT not disprove the Bible.  The Bible also has hundreds of fullfilled prophecies that would be astronomically impossible as a whole to write off as mere concidence.

 

   Words fail .. Mind blown. Careful friend.. What is proved by archaeological finds ? Seriously, What is proven ? This has nothing to do with substantiating any of the individual claims contained in the bible nor things things you just listed. A city existed. Yes, a city existed. There is evidence David existed. Yes, there is evidence David existed thanks to archaeological evidence.  Mind explaining ? IMHO, Making statements and assertions are not making a case for something. You are bogging down far too quickly.

 


TWD39 wrote:

 

 

Typical atheist garbage mockery.   Your responses only reinforce my negative stereotypes.  Atheists are not nice people.


  Again that cross you bare comes in awful handy.  Would you have felt better if you were beat up (literally) for the faith ? Or, That would have done it, you quit.

:


TWD39
Theist
Posts: 300
Joined: 2012-07-02
User is offlineOffline
danatemporary wrote:TWD39

danatemporary wrote:

  Words fail .. Mind blown. Careful friend.. What is proved by archaeological finds ? Seriously, What is proven ? This has nothing to do with substantiating any of the individual claims contained in the bible nor things things you just listed. A city existed. Yes, a city existed. There is evidence David existed. Yes, there is evidence David existed thanks to archaeological evidence.  Mind explaining ? Making statements and asserts are not making a case for something.

 

By that standard then you must regard all ancient history as fiction since apparently archaeology does nothing to add validity to the highly detailed accounts.


 


danatemporary
danatemporary's picture
Posts: 1532
Joined: 2011-01-12
User is offlineOffline
TWD39

  Nu. 37 & Nu. 38             Missing the point ..

   Start talking about details or all you are going to do is get NOWHERE ..

 

 

 

:

 


Beyond Saving
Silver Member
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 4476
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is onlineOnline
TWD39 wrote:Beyond Saving

TWD39 wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

The only evidence you have for your god is a really old book. Evidence that the bible is fiction? Read it. You have evidence that god is real? Outside of just the bible? Or is everything you have reliant on a book that tells stories of magic? So far you have just made assertions that god created A B & C with no evidence whatsoever. I am open to consider any evidence you might have but don't start regurgitating bible verses at me. It has as much credibility as someone telling me Hogwarts is real and reading the Harry Potter series to me or perhaps a better analogy is someone telling me that Grendel is real and reading from Beowulf as if it were fact.  

 

Well no, there are the countless examples of divine healling, power of prayer, transformed lives, supernatural encounters with angels and demons on top of the divine nature of the Bible.  Your statement that the Bible is just a bunch of stories of magic is one of ignorance.  At the very least, you have to accept the Bible as a historical record.   Hundreds of archaeological finds have been made to SUPPORT not disprove the Bible.  The Bible also has hundreds of fullfilled prophecies that would be astronomically impossible as a whole to write off as mere concidence.

And just today, you have this story:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/03/ex-fbi-employee-claims-saw-angels-at-flight-3/

 

Course, in your brainwashed mind, you have to automatically reject it and claim that she is a liar even though you have ZERO proof to make such a claim.

 

Um, she is suffering from PTSD so severely that she had to leave her job. Which explanation is more likely, that she didn't see angels and her believing she did is a psychological issue or that she saw legions of invisible angels which no one else could see, don't show up on any of the millions of pictures taken that day, left no radar signature and completely undetectable to everyone and all technology? 

I once met a man who told me that the government planted insect eggs into him and that the insects were hatching and eating their way out. Should I have believed he was telling the truth? I do believe that he sincerely believed every word he said, but I would have been quite shocked to see a bug eat its way out of his skin. Millions of people say they saw a wide variety of things from the lochness monster to big foot to aliens to angels etc. Some might be outright lying, others might have psychological issues and some might have simply fooled themselves.

As a hunter, I have often fooled myself into believing I saw the animal I sought, believing that I could see it moving and 100% convinced until I got closer or got a better view and realized it was a log. Should I believe that I did see the animal and it transformed into a log? Obviously not, the human mind takes small clues and fills in the details and it is perfectly possible to convince yourself you are seeing something that isn't really there. Unfortunately, by reacting to those details many people get shot every year in hunting accidents when other hunters are mistaken for game animals. 

When the brain is under stress things can get worse, and being a first responder to a plane crash is definitely a very stressful environment. Go out into the woods alone on a dark night and you will see all sorts of shit that isn't there, which is why I don't watch scary movies. Not because I actually believe some monster is going to come kill me, but when you are in the middle of a dark woods focusing on trying to get yourself out without becoming lost the last thing you need is your mind making you jumpy and elevating your adrenaline levels. 

Eyewitness accounts are notoriously inaccurate. Read the depositions of any murder trial where there were multiple eyewitnesses, rather large details will vary from person to person even if they all agree on who the killer was. Are they lying about the details? Doubtful, probably they were just put through such strong shock that they are not remembering specifics clearly, their minds fill in the blanks. 

I'm also willing to bet that in your own life you have some memory that you share with someone and if you were to discuss it in detail with them the memories are not identical. Say for example the two of you were going to make a short youtube clip of a reenactment and wanted every detail perfect- no doubt when you discussed those details you will find that your two memories of the experience are slightly or even significantly different. Is one of you lying? Of course not, memory just simply is not perfect. 

So the basic question is are you going to believe the implausible simply because someone says they saw it? If you are, then you have to believe in a lot of things. Eyewitness testimony might tell you where to look for evidence, but in and of itself is not conclusive proof of anything. Especially when future surveys of the area show nothing to support the claim. Someone else on here is probably in a better position to offer suggested reading material but many psychologists have studied this area and we have a decent understanding of how our mind can create false memories. But for some laymen explanations you might want to start here http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/02/050205130345.htm There are plenty of books on the subject if you are interested in learning more. Of course, that requires you to have an open mind to explanations other than "magic! angels! it was god!" 

 

So back to the bible. Exactly which prophecy has been fulfilled? Do you have any verifiable evidence of a person being divinely healed, say for example an amputee growing an arm back? We have had countless theists on here making similar claims and offering examples, every single one has been thoroughly debunked. For some reason these miraculous healings never happen around medical technology or a camera. God must really be cameraphobic.  

I just usually go with my own taste. If I like something, and it happens to be against the law, well, then I might have a problem.- Hunter S. Thompson


ex-minister
atheistHigh Level ModeratorSilver Member
ex-minister's picture
Posts: 1708
Joined: 2010-01-29
User is offlineOffline
TWD39 wrote:I've dealt with

TWD39 wrote:

I've dealt with another of your dark ilk to know any discussions are pointless.  You are programmed to always disagree with a Christian, and never admit that there is a single shred of goodness in the Christian faith.  Atheists of your caliber are extremely closed minded.

Can you be the bigger man?

Can you admit that atheist are decent people?

Do you feel you have an automatic bias against atheist particularly shown by your judgment above? 

 

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


TWD39
Theist
Posts: 300
Joined: 2012-07-02
User is offlineOffline
Beyond Saving wrote:TWD39

Beyond Saving wrote:

TWD39 wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

The only evidence you have for your god is a really old book. Evidence that the bible is fiction? Read it. You have evidence that god is real? Outside of just the bible? Or is everything you have reliant on a book that tells stories of magic? So far you have just made assertions that god created A B & C with no evidence whatsoever. I am open to consider any evidence you might have but don't start regurgitating bible verses at me. It has as much credibility as someone telling me Hogwarts is real and reading the Harry Potter series to me or perhaps a better analogy is someone telling me that Grendel is real and reading from Beowulf as if it were fact.  

 

Well no, there are the countless examples of divine healling, power of prayer, transformed lives, supernatural encounters with angels and demons on top of the divine nature of the Bible.  Your statement that the Bible is just a bunch of stories of magic is one of ignorance.  At the very least, you have to accept the Bible as a historical record.   Hundreds of archaeological finds have been made to SUPPORT not disprove the Bible.  The Bible also has hundreds of fullfilled prophecies that would be astronomically impossible as a whole to write off as mere concidence.

And just today, you have this story:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/03/ex-fbi-employee-claims-saw-angels-at-flight-3/

 

Course, in your brainwashed mind, you have to automatically reject it and claim that she is a liar even though you have ZERO proof to make such a claim.

 

Um, she is suffering from PTSD so severely that she had to leave her job. Which explanation is more likely, that she didn't see angels and her believing she did is a psychological issue or that she saw legions of invisible angels which no one else could see, don't show up on any of the millions of pictures taken that day, left no radar signature and completely undetectable to everyone and all technology? 

I once met a man who told me that the government planted insect eggs into him and that the insects were hatching and eating their way out. Should I have believed he was telling the truth? I do believe that he sincerely believed every word he said, but I would have been quite shocked to see a bug eat its way out of his skin. Millions of people say they saw a wide variety of things from the lochness monster to big foot to aliens to angels etc. Some might be outright lying, others might have psychological issues and some might have simply fooled themselves.

As a hunter, I have often fooled myself into believing I saw the animal I sought, believing that I could see it moving and 100% convinced until I got closer or got a better view and realized it was a log. Should I believe that I did see the animal and it transformed into a log? Obviously not, the human mind takes small clues and fills in the details and it is perfectly possible to convince yourself you are seeing something that isn't really there. Unfortunately, by reacting to those details many people get shot every year in hunting accidents when other hunters are mistaken for game animals. 

When the brain is under stress things can get worse, and being a first responder to a plane crash is definitely a very stressful environment. Go out into the woods alone on a dark night and you will see all sorts of shit that isn't there, which is why I don't watch scary movies. Not because I actually believe some monster is going to come kill me, but when you are in the middle of a dark woods focusing on trying to get yourself out without becoming lost the last thing you need is your mind making you jumpy and elevating your adrenaline levels. 

Eyewitness accounts are notoriously inaccurate. Read the depositions of any murder trial where there were multiple eyewitnesses, rather large details will vary from person to person even if they all agree on who the killer was. Are they lying about the details? Doubtful, probably they were just put through such strong shock that they are not remembering specifics clearly, their minds fill in the blanks. 

I'm also willing to bet that in your own life you have some memory that you share with someone and if you were to discuss it in detail with them the memories are not identical. Say for example the two of you were going to make a short youtube clip of a reenactment and wanted every detail perfect- no doubt when you discussed those details you will find that your two memories of the experience are slightly or even significantly different. Is one of you lying? Of course not, memory just simply is not perfect. 

So the basic question is are you going to believe the implausible simply because someone says they saw it? If you are, then you have to believe in a lot of things. Eyewitness testimony might tell you where to look for evidence, but in and of itself is not conclusive proof of anything. Especially when future surveys of the area show nothing to support the claim. Someone else on here is probably in a better position to offer suggested reading material but many psychologists have studied this area and we have a decent understanding of how our mind can create false memories. But for some laymen explanations you might want to start here http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/02/050205130345.htm There are plenty of books on the subject if you are interested in learning more. Of course, that requires you to have an open mind to explanations other than "magic! angels! it was god!" 

 

So back to the bible. Exactly which prophecy has been fulfilled? Do you have any verifiable evidence of a person being divinely healed, say for example an amputee growing an arm back? We have had countless theists on here making similar claims and offering examples, every single one has been thoroughly debunked. For some reason these miraculous healings never happen around medical technology or a camera. God must really be cameraphobic.  

 

 

I'm out of time unfortunately before my vacation.  You silly atheists will always come up with some reason why evidence is invalid.  I once presented with detailed medical records, photos and testimony from doctors a healing of a man who was raised from the dead.  Then the atheists suddenly demanded that it didn't count because the story had not appeared in medical journals. 

 

You'll always find a way to not believe miracles because Satan has you so brainwashed.  Really sad.


Beyond Saving
Silver Member
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 4476
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is onlineOnline
TWD39 wrote:I'm out of time

TWD39 wrote:

I'm out of time unfortunately before my vacation.  You silly atheists will always come up with some reason why evidence is invalid.  I once presented with detailed medical records, photos and testimony from doctors a healing of a man who was raised from the dead.  Then the atheists suddenly demanded that it didn't count because the story had not appeared in medical journals. 

 

You'll always find a way to not believe miracles because Satan has you so brainwashed.  Really sad.

Lol, and why do you think it didn't show up in medical journals? Is it some vast conspiracy? Whatever, have a good vacation, try bringing a decent argument when you get back. You are starting to get boring. 

I just usually go with my own taste. If I like something, and it happens to be against the law, well, then I might have a problem.- Hunter S. Thompson


latincanuck
atheist
latincanuck's picture
Posts: 2036
Joined: 2007-06-01
User is offlineOffline
TWD39 wrote: I'm out of

TWD39 wrote:
 

I'm out of time unfortunately before my vacation.  You silly atheists will always come up with some reason why evidence is invalid.  I once presented with detailed medical records, photos and testimony from doctors a healing of a man who was raised from the dead.  Then the atheists suddenly demanded that it didn't count because the story had not appeared in medical journals. 

 

You'll always find a way to not believe miracles because Satan has you so brainwashed.  Really sad.

Well the reason is that there is zero evidence to back up what you are claiming. detailed records? really lets see them, what I was raised from the dead as well.....i was dead for 6 minutes, cpr does wonders. However I am stilling waiting for your devastating evidence against scientific evidence of evolution.


harleysportster
atheist
harleysportster's picture
Posts: 3310
Joined: 2010-10-17
User is offlineOffline
TWD39 wrote: I'm out of

TWD39 wrote:

 

I'm out of time unfortunately before my vacation.  You silly atheists will always come up with some reason why evidence is invalid.  I once presented with detailed medical records, photos and testimony from doctors a healing of a man who was raised from the dead.  Then the atheists suddenly demanded that it didn't count because the story had not appeared in medical journals. 

 

You'll always find a way to not believe miracles because Satan has you so brainwashed.  Really sad.

 Unless you can present the medical records, photos and testimony, I am calling you an outright liar. (Which is a sin in your religion by the way).  Unless your talking about an NDE and that is not even CLOSE to "being raised from the dead. 

 You simply can not make valid rebuttals to the arguments at hand and are running away. 

Stay on vacation. Permanent vacation if you wish. 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


danatemporary
danatemporary's picture
Posts: 1532
Joined: 2011-01-12
User is offlineOffline
Come on over and see the board again :)

you big sillies wrote:
  .. coming up with some reason ..

 

   Come on over and see the board again . . .


ProzacDeathWish
atheist
ProzacDeathWish's picture
Posts: 3625
Joined: 2007-12-02
User is offlineOffline
TWD39 wrote:     I once

TWD39 wrote:

 

 

   I once presented with detailed medical records, photos and testimony from doctors a healing of a man who was raised from the dead.

 

                         Provide a link to that story.  Surely something of that magnitude would all over the internet.  Put forth some evidence and I'll consider it.

 

 

TWD39 wrote:
Then the atheists suddenly demanded that it didn't count because the story had not appeared in medical journals.

 

     Again, provide us with some information from this "miracle".   Why you not have already done so makes me suspicious of your claims.  Quit pussyfooting around.  Put up or shut up.

 

TWD39 wrote:
You'll always find a way to not believe miracles because Satan has you so brainwashed.

 

       Well I guess we can blame God for bringing Satan into existence can't we ?  God knew ahead of time that Satan was going to turn against him yet God just decided to go ahead and create the most evil being in existence anyway ?    Your God is an idiot.

 

 

TWD39 wrote:
Really sad.

  I hate fake pity.

 

             

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.

"When a man loves cats, I am his friend and comrade, without further introduction." Mark Twain.


harleysportster
atheist
harleysportster's picture
Posts: 3310
Joined: 2010-10-17
User is offlineOffline
danatemporary wrote: you big

danatemporary wrote:

you big sillies wrote:
  .. coming up with some reason ..

 

   Come on over and see the board again . . .

 

Hey Dana. I LOVE that poster. Might save it and use it somewhere. 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 10595
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
I've noticed that theists

I've noticed that theists tend to be a glass half full person when it comes to discussions on God.  They put extreme focus on the positive, declaring God to be a loving, just, caring, meriful Creator as if this perspective somehow invalidates the notion that God is a man-made construct.

I didn't have to change much to make that make sense.

"God has given us quite a lot to make it through this life without being completely miserable."

No. ALL that you have was given you by man and nature. Not invisible, magical, space zombies.

1: Sleep sucks. Incredibly poor design. Arguably the biggest design flaw in the history of life. Sure, lets become completely useless and vulnerable for a third of a day every day. What a waste.
Good argument against a designer though.

2: Evolution did that.

3: Again, evolution.

4: Another horrible design flaw. Just because something feels good doesn't mean it is efficient, practical, or superior to all other reproduction strategies.
Sex organs double as waste removal.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


jcgadfly
SuperfanBronze Member
Posts: 6789
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
TWD39 wrote:If evolution was

TWD39 wrote:

If evolution was the true origin of life, we would function just like animals, souless creatures acting only on instinct, eating, defecating and reproducing.  I certainly don't see a monkey get teary eyed over appreciating a beautitful sunset.  Evolution would have resulted in a realm of bleak ugliness, not a rainbow of beautiful colors.

Says the person who skips appreciating the wonders of the universe for an afterlife he has no evidence for.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin