Do Most Christians Feel That Their Faith is on Trial?

Marty Hamrick
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Do Most Christians Feel That Their Faith is on Trial?

 This is a repost from the CARM site. I mention Metacrock simply because he's one of the chief arguers. I like to post the same thread on the two sites, its an interesting contrast.

 

I've gotten very, very, very bored with argument forums. I'm not a professional debator, not a lawyer , not a scientist and really don't like arguing.If you've noticed, I've gone more for asking more questions than posting arguments. I suppose I'm here more for just understanding just what motivates people to believe and do things, that to me, seem really, really nuts. Now I don't mean that as an insult, being a little nuts in my book makes you unique and one can learn from people they think are nuts, even from people they dislike. An old eastern proverb states:"Every man is my superior in that I may learn from him".

I stay away from arguments where 90% of the dialogue is about how to argue "logically". Its meaningless to me, for when one follows that line, they can prove or disprove anything to make their point. Casey Anthony and OJ Simpson were freed simply because their attorneys made a more "logical and valid" case by simply poking holes in the prosecution's arguments. Does this mean they're really innocent?I have no idea, I lost interest in the stories after one day of the media circus and stopped caring. All they had to do was present one reasonable doubt, much like how Meta says all he has to do is "show one element of rationality" in an argument. So when I read phrases like "a priori assumption" my eyes immediately glaze over and I think, "Sheesh, not again!" No matter how good or bad one is at presenting a case, eventually the meat of the case is lost in the mechanics of argument. It does nothing in my opinion to prove or disprove the case.

This leads me to wonder about Christians and how their minds work. Many of the folks in the godhatesfags church are lawyers. Families of lawyers, long lines of lawyers. People who just live to argue. How much support have they gained for their cause by presenting arguments? How many people who are normally tolerant and liberal have looked at how they continually escape jail time through legal maneuverings(arguing) and said, "They're so good at arguing their case they must be right, I have to hate fags too". So if your purpose for arguing is Evangelism, it seems to me that you're going around your derrier to get to your elbow.

What's the motivation anyway? Is it evangelism or do you feel that because people disagree, your faith is on some sort of trial, because that's how your arguments come across. "One point in rationality" sounds an awful lot like "one reasonable doubt" to me.Its easy to make something subjective sound reasonable to the subject, another thing entirely to sell it someone else and arguing like a defense attorney just seems like an inefficient way to make a case.

I know Christianity, particularly the fundie kind is ripe with conspiracy theories behind the eschatology. So I suppose feeling like your faith is on trial is part and parcel, but it just seems to me that it goes beyond mere defense, it comes across like a person yelling "fire!" in a crowded theatre when there's no smoke. If you feel that your faith is on trial (personally, not some news story), lets see some evidence. Has law enforcement tried to bar you from your church? Has your local TV or radio station banned your favorite Christian programming? Have Family Services taken your kids away because you decided to home or private school them? North America is the freest continent on the planet. I lived in what I've heard fundies call "godless , liberal Canada" and I saw no evidence that Christian faith is on trial, indeed, fundie Christians drive around the block in Toronto in cars decked with slogans like "Where Will You Spend Eternity?" while they blare their preaching on loudspeakers and stand on street corners preaching and handing out tracts alongside Muslims and Scientologists. Does this sound like you're on trial?

"Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings."


Vastet
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I don't think there's much

I don't think there's much logic in the court system. Plenty of emotion, little logic.

The average person, in my experience, is anything but well versed in logic. And it is generally average people who sit on juries and prosecute or defend accused persons (a law degree does NOT come with an education in logic).

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Do most flat earthers feel

Do most flat earthers feel that their belief is on trial? I am sure they do, but why should that matter? If popularity determined facts then the earth would still be flat.

If our species never questioned social norms our species never would have left the caves.

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Jean Chauvin
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Hey OPIE

Hey OPIE,

I find it very convenient (how conveninent) that you do not like discusing or following the rules of argument (logic). This is very convenient. Since wannabe atheism has no logical means to it's worldview. and since the laws of logic are obvioulsy going to bite every atheist in the ass, why not just ignore them.

In another thread I busted you on your emotions or "FEELINGS." (your word not mine). Those who are into feelings are anti thetical to logic lol.

How convenient. lol. At least you're honest, you get some respect for that lol.

Due to your high level of ignorance in logical and argument, Christians do not have their faith on trial lol. I do not know what you mean by faith. I would prepose that your understanding of faith is completely oppositite from what it actually is.

If you wish to represent your oppoent, at least get their position correct that you are opposing.

The Christians starts with the cause and infinte unversal via personality. The people who pretend to be atheists start with finite rocks and worms and never get a chance to look up and crawl to a universal.

As a result, since this cannot be done from your perspective, you then have the burden of proof to demonstration how this can be done. For if you are unable to do this, you are unable to comprehend anything let alone a sentice vs. an argument.

Though I understand why you got this backwards my public educated victim

You don't like to even think about how to argue. How Convenient lol.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

 

A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).


Vastet
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Quote:I find it very

Quote:
I find it very convenient (how conveninent) that you do not like discusing or following the rules of argument (logic). This is very convenient.

Lmfao. I always figured there was a drunken comedian waiting to get out of jean. How inconvenient for him.

Kids, this is usually the result of home schooling. Be warned!

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Marty Hamrick
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Vastet wrote:Quote:I find it

Vastet wrote:
Quote:
I find it very convenient (how conveninent) that you do not like discusing or following the rules of argument (logic). This is very convenient.
Lmfao. I always figured there was a drunken comedian waiting to get out of jean. How inconvenient for him. Kids, this is usually the result of home schooling. Be warned!

 

I'm still waiting for the punch line...and evidence, oh well. He missed my point as do most apologists. Or do they? Word games and acrobatics in logic are usually the only refuge for one who has no case to make.

Glad I could be entertaining, but as usual, nothing of value offered by apologetics.

 

"Opie" is a compliment to a guy like me. Ron Howard is one of my favourite directors and The Andy Griffith Show is classic TV.

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I think Christians can't

I think Christians can't help but feel threatened, if they have their  faith as a tribal badge. This happens when they get born into it, into belonging in a family, community, nation and faith. To insult one is to insult all of these. You know what? This is no personal relationship with God, it's about as unique as Moonist mass weddings. It's an uniformous mental stamp that parents put on children to hold the tribe together.

You see how bizarre that is, a faith that should be based on an intense and private personal experience is instead thrown among worldly goods that determine our worth in eyes of others. Which is a very doubtful investment. People come and go, change their mind, try new things, make positive and negative opinion, that's natural. But suddenly there is this religion thing in the world, that people aren't allowed to change or leave or try freely, because it has God's copyright or something. 

So people should decide, either they make a religion as a tribal badge and accept that there are many other tribes which are just as valid, or they decide that religion is a matter of personal searching and unique experience and its validity can not be compared or enforced. They can't have both, they can't bring an unquestionable authority into the world of pluralism and changes.

 

Which reminds me of one recent podcast on The Thinking Atheist. Listen to it, Seth is a very likable narrator. Anyway, I think it was this piece, Worshipping ignorance. When Seth had his deconversion, he detailedly described why he became an atheist, contradictions in Bible and so on. He sent it as an e-mail to his very numerous family members. How many responses he got? None. Silence Later just one came, saying basically "seems to me you're religious about your atheism, huh?" Nobody expressed a healthy concern or morbid interest where that came from or how does he feel now, not a single of the loved ones. They all instantly went on the defensive. And later on the offensive, but that's a different story.

I believe what happened was a shock. His family considered their faith as its foundation. By questioning it Seth actually commited an unexpected betrayal of the family from one of their own. That's how they saw it, I think. He could just as well say "I think this is a bad family and I'm going to another family". From their point of view this had nothing to do with correct or incorrect facts. Seth unwittingly butchered a family's sacred cow and invited everyone for the barbecue.

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


Marty Hamrick
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 I can relate to Seth's

 I can relate to Seth's story. Fortunately for me, though, the older patriarchs and matriarchs are gone, the younger family members have moved on and religious discussions seldom come up.

 I'll give that a listen, sounds like Seth and I have a few things in common. The bottom line , as I see it, is that the apologists, with a few exceptions like my friend John Smulo, seem to have this massive chip on their shoulder that, to me sounds like an overcompensation for feelings of inadequecy. They're quick to boast of their education and lack the humility of a true scholar, so they attack those who disagree and accuse us of being close minded and intolerant. It really doesn't have to be like this.

 

"Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings."


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Luminon wrote:I think

Luminon wrote:

I think Christians can't help but feel threatened, if they have their  faith as a tribal badge. This happens when they get born into it, into belonging in a family, community, nation and faith. To insult one is to insult all of these. You know what? This is no personal relationship with God, it's about as unique as Moonist mass weddings. It's an uniformous mental stamp that parents put on children to hold the tribe together.

You see how bizarre that is, a faith that should be based on an intense and private personal experience is instead thrown among worldly goods that determine our worth in eyes of others. Which is a very doubtful investment. People come and go, change their mind, try new things, make positive and negative opinion, that's natural. But suddenly there is this religion thing in the world, that people aren't allowed to change or leave or try freely, because it has God's copyright or something. 

So people should decide, either they make a religion as a tribal badge and accept that there are many other tribes which are just as valid, or they decide that religion is a matter of personal searching and unique experience and its validity can not be compared or enforced. They can't have both, they can't bring an unquestionable authority into the world of pluralism and changes.

 

Which reminds me of one recent podcast on The Thinking Atheist. Listen to it, Seth is a very likable narrator. Anyway, I think it was this piece, Worshipping ignorance. When Seth had his deconversion, he detailedly described why he became an atheist, contradictions in Bible and so on. He sent it as an e-mail to his very numerous family members. How many responses he got? None. Silence Later just one came, saying basically "seems to me you're religious about your atheism, huh?" Nobody expressed a healthy concern or morbid interest where that came from or how does he feel now, not a single of the loved ones. They all instantly went on the defensive. And later on the offensive, but that's a different story.

I believe what happened was a shock. His family considered their faith as its foundation. By questioning it Seth actually commited an unexpected betrayal of the family from one of their own. That's how they saw it, I think. He could just as well say "I think this is a bad family and I'm going to another family". From their point of view this had nothing to do with correct or incorrect facts. Seth unwittingly butchered a family's sacred cow and invited everyone for the barbecue.

 

Nice Lum.  I often comment about my mother and how even when she rarely gets up the effort to try and bring me back to jesus,  it seems to be mostly a matter of pride.

If we were the last 2 left on earth I don't think she would even try, and would likely even come to face her own doubts and see reason. But for the rest of the world, especially relatives, to see that her son has left the club and is proudly flying a new flag, I may as well be burning the family crest in the town square. I'm sure she avoids the subject when in relative company.

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


Marty Hamrick
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 Quote: The Christians

 

Quote:

 

The Christians starts with the cause and infinte unversal via personalityThe Christians starts with the cause and infinte unversal via personality.

 

 

That's like trying to calculate gas mileage without a car. Go ahead and say it, improper and illogical argument from analogy. Another line from the Apologist's script. The next line after that would be something about my godless lifestyle and how I'm trying to defend it. My friend John Smulo would just laugh, Metacrock would say something like "You dnot know nothnig".

I really wish you guys could come up with new material.

 

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Marty, Thought provoking. I

Marty,
Thought provoking. I think you have described where I see I am heading. I used to be quite an argumentative fundie. But after losing that and becoming an atheist, going thru an argumentative stage, I see I am calming down. Your post clears up why.
Do you have the link to your CARM post? I would like to read it.

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Marty Hamrick
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ex-minister wrote:Marty,

ex-minister wrote:
Marty, Thought provoking. I think you have described where I see I am heading. I used to be quite an argumentative fundie. But after losing that and becoming an atheist, going thru an argumentative stage, I see I am calming down. Your post clears up why. Do you have the link to your CARM post? I would like to read it.

 

Here you go:

http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.php?104305-Christians-Do-You-Feel-Like-Your-Faith-is-On-Trial

 

You can find the others there too. Just click on my name (its the same here as it is there, I don't hide behind cutesy monikers) and go to "started threads" and you'll see them.

 

Thanks.

"Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings."