Arguing on How to Argue, the Theist's Dodge

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Arguing on How to Argue, the Theist's Dodge

  Philosophy is defined as :

 
  1. The study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence, esp. when considered as an academic discipline.
  2. A set of views and theories of a particular philosopher concerning such study or an aspect of it.

 

#1 basically says its the study of everything, basically,life.#2 basically says its someone's opinion about it. Every time I read a particular philosopher, whether I agree with him or not, the first thing that pops into my head is: "Did this guy not have a job?"

 

I've read enough scholarly debates from theists who love to quote philosophers as if they are quoting mathematical formulas to "prove" that their argument is more valid, simply because, as near as I can tell, it looks and sounds more "scholarly". One of the most ridiculous to me is the so called Transcendental Argument (TAG), which, admittedly, I had no idea what it was until I ran across this and other debate forum sites.After researching it, I at first decided to leave it alone and let the philosophy majors from both sides hash it out until I became so bored with it, I had to take a hiatus from these forum sites and go back to my film and photography sites for discussions on things I like more and that I'm more familiar with. After some time, though, I returned to sites like this after giving this stuff considerable thought. Still I avoided those topics, simply because they seemed to generate so much hostility on both sides up until a Christian poster approached it in a nicer, and more "sound bite friendly" manner. He simply asked, "From where did the first thoughts arise ? "

 

Now this, I thought was a good question, especially from a mindset who believes that anything materialistic is "reductionism" ( more on that later). I replied, that I personally felt that thought arose through natural selection as the living brain evolved to more complexity. Thoughts come from a brain, a brain evolved through NS, as did everything else. Thoughts and sentience developed through necessity as the environment changed, just like every other system in a given body. You can see evidence of this in other animals, particularly primates. Chimps and gorillas make tools and arrange things in their environment to suit their needs. There is even evidence that dogs are not only able to conceptualize, but able to self express through abstract form.

http://voices.yahoo.com/just-human-pet-887635.html?cat=53

The ability to conceptualize and produce a mental analogue is a necessity for anything with even the most rudimentary intelligence and reasoning capability. A chimp who wishes to get at bugs buried in the bark of a tree, and then figures out how to pick out the right stick for the job would have to have the ability not only to reasonably assess his situation ( " I can't reach these bugs with my fingers&quotEye-wink and then imagine in his mind what he needs ("something thinner and longer than my finger&quotEye-wink. He looks around and sees a thin,long stick. From there, he then deduces how to make such a stick from other branches whenever the need for a long, thin stick arises.

No concept can exist without something  material coming first from which to draw a concept. Even such concepts such as "love" or "peace", "hate" or "war" require an anlogue model in a sentient mind for a so called "transcendental" concept to arise. Think of the word "love", what pops into your mind? Something immaterial? A feeling? Feelings are far from being immaterial or transcendental, they are produced by chemicals in the brain, without which  you would not be able to feel "love".Where would the concept of love be without emotions? How would emotions be possible without the proper brain chemistry? No social or political animal functions without some ability to feel and express love, the need is there and natural selection provided the means for it,long before human brains conceptualized and verbalized it.

Now I expect apologist/philosophers to jump all over this and claim that it was the concept that had to be there first before anything else could develop from it and their only answer has to be something "mystical" and "transcendental", namely God. They'll say that my view is an idealogical one that ascibes too much power to NS and is thus "reductionalism." Fine, its and "idealogy", but then what else is religion or philosophy? I'm still waiting for one of them to demonstrate how thoughts, feelings and concepts arise without a material brain without having to "prove" it with someone's "transcendental experience" which has failed miserably to show this so called "trancendental" source.

My own personal "philosophical" question in which none of these theologians and philosophers can answer to my satisfaction is why is it a "reduction" to say these concepts stem from physical sources? Is the love you feel for your spouse, child, friend,pet or avocation less meaningful because it stems from the brain and not some supernatural source? Why? Does a crime committed against the innocent lose its meaning if there are no non physical entities behind it? Why? Please explain.

 

"Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings."


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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

jeffreyalex wrote:

How, would you say, is the sentiment "I only want to date white guys/girls" different from "I only want to date atheist guys/girls"? 

 

Yeah I would not date a christian (or any other fundamentalist religious type) under any circumstances, or go into business with one, nor befriend one in any serious, trusting way. I sometimes think of disowning my god-bothering family, their drivel pisses me off so much.

I think god-people are fundamentally immoral and entirely self focused. Whether this attitude equates to racism? No doubt it could be called a bigotry of sorts. I just don't want to socialise with or depend on people who believe I deserve eternal torture, that I am intrinsically evil and possessed by a demonic angel who fell from heaven called satan. Go figure. 

Personally, I don't think anyone deserves eternal torture and those who believe such things have sociopathic empathy issues that make a mockery of their babble about a 'loving' god. When I listen to christians talking about their beliefs - my minister brother-in-law for instance; who recently told me my loathing for god's 'justice' meant I would go to hell, and who said he would light the lake of fire if god asked him to; I can't help thinking they are partly insane. 

 

 

 

I'd have to agree with most of that. But it's not the case that all non-atheists are religious fundamentalists.


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Yeah, There is a hidden beauty breaking away from the JLY types:

Marty Hamrick wrote:
I wasn't expecting an apologist on this site so quickly. It was actually a refreshing break from the JLY types. I didn't mean so much to trash his  disciplines of study so much as to for once, see something different.

   Marty I read where you didnt always like to formally debate. I know dozens that are the same way. I love to learn and love to ask questions myself. And Isnt it all too human of any of us to not truly appreciate something until it is gone?   Thankfully, There arent  secret lists composed, in which, where certain types are not to be interacted with (to my knowledge). Joke. YEC certainly wouldn't be excluded, this doesnt come up on this board as often as other forums on the internet. Anyone who wants to defend YEC timelines, please do so.  Love to hear more about how evolution couldnt have happened.  Time plays an over-arching theme in YEC views from the .pdfs I did read over.   Everybody enjoys the forum so keep that in mind, Jean Smiling  Smiling

 

 

 

JA wrote:
But it's not the case that all non-atheists are religious fundamentalists.

    Lol !  You've noticed a large diversity with Theism and Atheism in this board alone. Ties into what I commented.

 

 


Atheistextremist
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Agreed

jeffreyalex wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

jeffreyalex wrote:

How, would you say, is the sentiment "I only want to date white guys/girls" different from "I only want to date atheist guys/girls"? 

 

Yeah I would not date a christian (or any other fundamentalist religious type) under any circumstances, or go into business with one, nor befriend one in any serious, trusting way. I sometimes think of disowning my god-bothering family, their drivel pisses me off so much.

I think god-people are fundamentally immoral and entirely self focused. Whether this attitude equates to racism? No doubt it could be called a bigotry of sorts. I just don't want to socialise with or depend on people who believe I deserve eternal torture, that I am intrinsically evil and possessed by a demonic angel who fell from heaven called satan. Go figure. 

Personally, I don't think anyone deserves eternal torture and those who believe such things have sociopathic empathy issues that make a mockery of their babble about a 'loving' god. When I listen to christians talking about their beliefs - my minister brother-in-law for instance; who recently told me my loathing for god's 'justice' meant I would go to hell, and who said he would light the lake of fire if god asked him to; I can't help thinking they are partly insane. 

 

 

 

I'd have to agree with most of that. But it's not the case that all non-atheists are religious fundamentalists.

 

I put the 'fundamentalist religious types' in there to cover that. Deists, pantheists, panentheists, etc, are not the same thing at all. I generally have no great issue with spiritual speculations about the unknown, as long as they are acknowledged to be speculations and an open position in relation to new evidence is maintained.  

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


harleysportster
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Atheistextremist wrote:  I

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

 

I put the 'fundamentalist religious types' in there to cover that. Deists, pantheists, panentheists, etc, are not the same thing at all. I generally have no great issue with spiritual speculations about the unknown, as long as they are acknowledged to be speculations and an open position in relation to new evidence is maintained.  

 

 

 

I think your last two posts covers my feelings on the subject AE. 

I don't think that I could get along with any of the fundamentalist types. 

Even my biker bro that I mentioned states that the Bible is open to interpretation, is not the literal word of god etc. 

He kind of reminds me of Greatest I am's posts.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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jeffreyalex wrote:  How,

jeffreyalex wrote:

 


 

How, would you say, is the sentiment "I only want to date white guys/girls" different from "I only want to date atheist guys/girls"? 

  My girlfriend is a Southern Baptist ( we started dating while I was still a Christian ) yet we are still together.  My only other male friend is a nominal Christian as is his wife.  I don't have any atheist friends in the real world.  Are you suggesting that being an atheist somehow makes me an elitist ?

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.

"When a man loves cats, I am his friend and comrade, without further introduction." Mark Twain.


Jean Chauvin
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Hello

Hello

lol I'm not angry. Just confident and calling him on it.

To simply say you are sick of TAG or tired of the various mis leading views of TAG does not refute TAG. I don't like dark chocolate, that doesn't mean that dark chocolate doesn't exist in reality.

Refute it OPIE. Otherwise your whole post is nothing but whining. Most atheists are whiners it is becoming evident.lol.

He is evil to the core according to Scripture (Jeremiah 17:3). I'm just pointing out the obvious.

 

Thank you Dana for the welcome.

A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).


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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

jeffreyalex wrote:

 

 

 

How, would you say, is the sentiment "I only want to date white guys/girls" different from "I only want to date atheist guys/girls"? 

  My girlfriend is a Southern Baptist ( we started dating while I was still a Christian ) yet we are still together.  My only other male friend is a nominal Christian as is his wife.  I don't have any atheist friends in the real world.  Are you suggesting that being an atheist somehow makes me an elitist ?

 

Uh, no? 

I'm asking a question to atheists who would only want to date other atheists.


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Back to the OP momentarily...

 

I think this covers some of the things we've touched on recently...

 

wrong2

 

http://www.jesusandmo.net/2012/06/06/wrong2/

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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jeffreyalex wrote:   Are

 

   Are you suggesting that being an atheist somehow makes me an elitist ?

 

 

jeffreyalex wrote:
Uh, no ?

I'm asking a question to atheists who would only want to date other atheists.

 

  Yes, because the mentality behind being an atheist who refuses to associate  with ( ie, "date" ) non atheists and being an elitist based upon personal atheism are sooo far apart...

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.

"When a man loves cats, I am his friend and comrade, without further introduction." Mark Twain.


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ProzacDeathWish wrote:   

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

 

   Are you suggesting that being an atheist somehow makes me an elitist ?

 

 

jeffreyalex wrote:
Uh, no ?

I'm asking a question to atheists who would only want to date other atheists.

 

  Yes, because the mentality behind being an atheist who refuses to associate  with ( ie, "date" ) non atheists and being an elitist based upon personal atheism are sooo far apart...

 

Again, I'm not accusing YOU of anything. I don't know you. I know a lot of atheist who wouldn't date non-atheists, and I see dating websites specifically for atheists. Now I'm asking you, is that elitism?


Marty Hamrick
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Quote:I can't help thinking

Quote:
I can't help thinking they are partly insane.

Only partly?


harleysportster
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jeffreyalex wrote: Again,

jeffreyalex wrote:

 

Again, I'm not accusing YOU of anything. I don't know you. I know a lot of atheist who wouldn't date non-atheists, and I see dating websites specifically for atheists. Now I'm asking you, is that elitism?

I see tv commercials for Christian Singles. com all of the time. Is that elitism ? 

Depends on what you view as elitism. 

I don't think that I would want to date or marry a fundamentalist Christian, simply because I do not think that we would be able to get along. 

Let's take Atheism/ Theism out of the equation for a moment. 

There are simply some people that I am compatible with and others that I am simply not. Would it be elitism to put on a dating site what I am looking for ? 

I've never been to a dating and have no clue how they work, but I am sure that if I placed : seeking someone who likes ( insert whatever you wish here) that would simply mean the desire to seek some form of compatibility. 

Each case might be wholly unique. Some atheists on those websites might only wish to date other Atheists for personal reasons and it NOT have anything to do with thinking they are above a theist. They might simply have had some bad past experiences with dating non- Atheists. I said something to a girl one time about my ideas and see gave me this real disgusted look and said " YOU MEAN THAT YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD ? ! ,"  You would have thought I had said that I was for rape and torture of innocent people with her tone of voice and expression. 

Some atheists might actually BE somewhat elitist about it. 

I would have no way of knowing unless I could have further information about the motives of the person, be they theist or atheist. 

However, I would say that the last place that I would want to begin a date would be online. 

I don't know if there are any fellow country music fans here, but dating sites remind me of that song ( can't think of the singer) that says " I am so much cooler online." 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


Marty Hamrick
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Quote: Yeah I would not

Quote:

 

Yeah I would not date a christian (or any other fundamentalist religious type) under any circumstances

How about just "do" one if she was cute?

, . Whether this attitude equates to racism? No doubt it could be called a bigotry of sorts.

The bigotry is in the emotional level, though its understandable, though its not on the same level as a sheet wearing fanatic. I knew a woman who wouldn't date African Americans because, she said, she wasn't physically attracted to them. While some may see that as superficial and shallow, I'm not so sure I would call it racism or bigotry.

Quote:
 

Personally, I don't think anyone deserves eternal torture and those who believe such things have sociopathic empathy issues that make a mockery of their babble about a 'loving' god. When I listen to christians talking about their beliefs - my minister brother-in-law for instance; who recently told me my loathing for god's 'justice' meant I would go to hell, and who said he would light the lake of fire if god asked him to; I can't help thinking they are partly insane. 

 

I can't help but suspect a bit of jealousy and self loathing as they imagine atheists living in pure lustful abandon and debauchery. They have their own secret desires like everyone else, so they justify those feelings in religious thought and pursuit. No wonder so many of them suffer from scrupulosity.

"Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings."


Marty Hamrick
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Jean Chauvin wrote:Hellolol

Quote:

Hello

lol I'm not angry. Just confident and calling him on it.

To simply say you are sick of TAG or tired of the various mis leading views of TAG does not refute TAG. I don't like dark chocolate, that doesn't mean that dark chocolate doesn't exist in reality. 

Refute it OPIE.[/ Quote]

Why Moe? Even if I did, the arguments would have the same predictable points and counterpoints that have been spouted before on this and numerous sites. I could cut and paste another debate from a similar site and it would be the same thing. Reruns are boring. Here;s the 20 second soundbite version:

ProTag: "Thought created matter, I can prove it. Where did the first thought come from?"

ConTag:" No. its the other way around, evolution and natural selection......."

Protag: "You want to believe that to support your own inner evils."

Reading audience:"zzzzzzzzzzzz"

Really, Moe, what more can we add? What's your motivation? You know where the arguments lead...nowhere so what's the point? The bottom line is physicality vs. nonphysicality, pick your poison, to each his own. My challenge to you apologist types is to move on to another subject. We've heard it before ,who "wins" is subjective, just like everything else.

Quote:

Otherwise your whole post is nothing but whining. Most atheists are whiners it is becoming evident.lol.

He is evil to the core according to Scripture (Jeremiah 17:3). I'm just pointing out the obvious.

Heard that before too. We "whine" you "preach" big deal.

"Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings."


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(ha ha) God might have gotten tired of nature shows :

 Maybe with the whole angels thing we see a capacity to learn on God's part?. And, Maybe it's the herbal tincture kicking in (it's 80 proof), but I just had a disturbing thought, your profession Marty is at its' basis oddly, "What if this is all God's Tv ?" :¬

 


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Oh,

 

Marty Hamrick wrote:

How about just "do" one if she was cute?

 

sure. And I'd insist she wear a crucifix and recite passages from song of songs in the process....

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Now you're talking

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

sure. And I'd insist she wear a crucifix and recite passages from song of songs in the process....

 

 

I seem to have picked up a burka fetish myself.


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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

Marty Hamrick wrote:

How about just "do" one if she was cute?

 

sure. And I'd insist she wear a crucifix and recite passages from song of songs in the process....

 

Hell, I'll admit it, if she is good enough looking I'll do her in the church.... during service... but if she wants my phone number she better be smart enough to realize that everything the pastor said was BS.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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It's wrong to go sideways like this

Beyond Saving wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

Marty Hamrick wrote:

How about just "do" one if she was cute?

 

sure. And I'd insist she wear a crucifix and recite passages from song of songs in the process....

 

Hell, I'll admit it, if she is good enough looking I'll do her in the church.... during service... but if she wants my phone number she better be smart enough to realize that everything the pastor said was BS.

 

But fuck it.

As the preacher's teenage son I had a memorable opportunity to sneak into the church one hormonal school-day afternoon with my girlfriend Fiona and, to the wide-eyed horror of stained-glass jesus, to consecrate the altar...

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


Marty Hamrick
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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

Marty Hamrick wrote:

How about just "do" one if she was cute?

 

sure. And I'd insist she wear a crucifix and recite passages from song of songs in the process....

 

 

That's like my British friend who hated the French. He said he would do a cute French girl if he could hang the Union Jack over the bed.

"Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings."


Marty Hamrick
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danatemporary wrote: Maybe

danatemporary wrote:

 Maybe with the whole angels thing we see a capacity to learn on God's part?. And, Maybe it's the herbal tincture kicking in (it's 80 proof), but I just had a disturbing thought, your profession Marty is at its' basis oddly, "What if this is all God's Tv ?" :¬

 

 

Then he needs to hire some new writers.

"Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings."


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Beyond Saving wrote: Hell,

Beyond Saving wrote:

 

Hell, I'll admit it, if she is good enough looking I'll do her in the church.... during service... but if she wants my phone number she better be smart enough to realize that everything the pastor said was BS.

Laughing out loud I am with Beyond on that one. 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


Marty Hamrick
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   At first I thought this

   At first I thought this merely to be a humorous escape from debate, but it makes a point. What Beyond said is something I experienced several times in my youth. In my teenage years, growing up in the Fundie infested south, I met many girls who would engage in activities as Beyond describes on Saturday, whilst on Sunday make their amends with the naked guy on the cross. To put it simply, they were on their knees praying on Sunday, but on Saturday they assumed the position for quite a different reason.

 Now this is not to use the platitude of "All Christians are hypocrites" as every Christian will fish a scripture out and as we've seen here, will throw personal insults and biblical trashings about our lack of morality, but to point out that what is seen by the fundie Christian as a battle of invisible men over the soul, is in reality a battle with scrupulosity and other emotional disorders.

"Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings."


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harleysportster

harleysportster wrote:

jeffreyalex wrote:

 

Again, I'm not accusing YOU of anything. I don't know you. I know a lot of atheist who wouldn't date non-atheists, and I see dating websites specifically for atheists. Now I'm asking you, is that elitism?

I see tv commercials for Christian Singles. com all of the time. Is that elitism ? 

Depends on what you view as elitism. 

I don't think that I would want to date or marry a fundamentalist Christian, simply because I do not think that we would be able to get along. 

Let's take Atheism/ Theism out of the equation for a moment. 

There are simply some people that I am compatible with and others that I am simply not. Would it be elitism to put on a dating site what I am looking for ? 

I've never been to a dating and have no clue how they work, but I am sure that if I placed : seeking someone who likes ( insert whatever you wish here) that would simply mean the desire to seek some form of compatibility. 

Each case might be wholly unique. Some atheists on those websites might only wish to date other Atheists for personal reasons and it NOT have anything to do with thinking they are above a theist. They might simply have had some bad past experiences with dating non- Atheists. I said something to a girl one time about my ideas and see gave me this real disgusted look and said " YOU MEAN THAT YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD ? ! ,"  You would have thought I had said that I was for rape and torture of innocent people with her tone of voice and expression. 

Some atheists might actually BE somewhat elitist about it. 

I would have no way of knowing unless I could have further information about the motives of the person, be they theist or atheist. 

However, I would say that the last place that I would want to begin a date would be online. 

I don't know if there are any fellow country music fans here, but dating sites remind me of that song ( can't think of the singer) that says " I am so much cooler online." 

 

The distinction between a Christian dating site and an atheist one is important. Christianity is a belief, an affirmative belief that A, B, and C are true. Atheism, as I've been reminded many times, is not a belief—it is a "lack of belief". You couldn't organize a dating website around a lack of belief in talking tomatoes, for example. (Or heck, maybe you could).

I basically agree with the rest of what you said, though. I personally would not date any sort of fundamentalist, no way, no how. 

 

I think that lyric is from a Brad Paisley song, not 100% sure. 


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jeffreyalex

jeffreyalex wrote:

harleysportster wrote:

jeffreyalex wrote:

 

Again, I'm not accusing YOU of anything. I don't know you. I know a lot of atheist who wouldn't date non-atheists, and I see dating websites specifically for atheists. Now I'm asking you, is that elitism?

I see tv commercials for Christian Singles. com all of the time. Is that elitism ? 

Depends on what you view as elitism. 

I don't think that I would want to date or marry a fundamentalist Christian, simply because I do not think that we would be able to get along. 

Let's take Atheism/ Theism out of the equation for a moment. 

There are simply some people that I am compatible with and others that I am simply not. Would it be elitism to put on a dating site what I am looking for ? 

I've never been to a dating and have no clue how they work, but I am sure that if I placed : seeking someone who likes ( insert whatever you wish here) that would simply mean the desire to seek some form of compatibility. 

Each case might be wholly unique. Some atheists on those websites might only wish to date other Atheists for personal reasons and it NOT have anything to do with thinking they are above a theist. They might simply have had some bad past experiences with dating non- Atheists. I said something to a girl one time about my ideas and see gave me this real disgusted look and said " YOU MEAN THAT YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD ? ! ,"  You would have thought I had said that I was for rape and torture of innocent people with her tone of voice and expression. 

Some atheists might actually BE somewhat elitist about it. 

I would have no way of knowing unless I could have further information about the motives of the person, be they theist or atheist. 

However, I would say that the last place that I would want to begin a date would be online. 

I don't know if there are any fellow country music fans here, but dating sites remind me of that song ( can't think of the singer) that says " I am so much cooler online." 

 

The distinction between a Christian dating site and an atheist one is important. Christianity is a belief, an affirmative belief that A, B, and C are true. Atheism, as I've been reminded many times, is not a belief—it is a "lack of belief". You couldn't organize a dating website around a lack of belief in talking tomatoes, for example. (Or heck, maybe you could).

I basically agree with the rest of what you said, though. I personally would not date any sort of fundamentalist, no way, no how. 

 

I think that lyric is from a Brad Paisley song, not 100% sure. 

 

The problem with your comparison though is that there is also no societal pressure per se against those that are opposed to the idea of talking tomatoes. I personally am not overly concerned about the religious beliefs of a partner so long as they didn't cause harm to them or others and they didn't try to force them on me. I could date and maybe even marry a believer, but it would depend on the types and I can also see some people who might be more interested in someone that shares a worldview. TO look at it another way, look at dating websites like Geek2Geek, they deal with a sort of cultural group rather than religious, would wanting to date only other geeks be elitist?


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Joker wrote:jeffreyalex

Joker wrote:

jeffreyalex wrote:

harleysportster wrote:

jeffreyalex wrote:

 

Again, I'm not accusing YOU of anything. I don't know you. I know a lot of atheist who wouldn't date non-atheists, and I see dating websites specifically for atheists. Now I'm asking you, is that elitism?

I see tv commercials for Christian Singles. com all of the time. Is that elitism ? 

Depends on what you view as elitism. 

I don't think that I would want to date or marry a fundamentalist Christian, simply because I do not think that we would be able to get along. 

Let's take Atheism/ Theism out of the equation for a moment. 

There are simply some people that I am compatible with and others that I am simply not. Would it be elitism to put on a dating site what I am looking for ? 

I've never been to a dating and have no clue how they work, but I am sure that if I placed : seeking someone who likes ( insert whatever you wish here) that would simply mean the desire to seek some form of compatibility. 

Each case might be wholly unique. Some atheists on those websites might only wish to date other Atheists for personal reasons and it NOT have anything to do with thinking they are above a theist. They might simply have had some bad past experiences with dating non- Atheists. I said something to a girl one time about my ideas and see gave me this real disgusted look and said " YOU MEAN THAT YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD ? ! ,"  You would have thought I had said that I was for rape and torture of innocent people with her tone of voice and expression. 

Some atheists might actually BE somewhat elitist about it. 

I would have no way of knowing unless I could have further information about the motives of the person, be they theist or atheist. 

However, I would say that the last place that I would want to begin a date would be online. 

I don't know if there are any fellow country music fans here, but dating sites remind me of that song ( can't think of the singer) that says " I am so much cooler online." 

 

The distinction between a Christian dating site and an atheist one is important. Christianity is a belief, an affirmative belief that A, B, and C are true. Atheism, as I've been reminded many times, is not a belief—it is a "lack of belief". You couldn't organize a dating website around a lack of belief in talking tomatoes, for example. (Or heck, maybe you could).

I basically agree with the rest of what you said, though. I personally would not date any sort of fundamentalist, no way, no how. 

 

I think that lyric is from a Brad Paisley song, not 100% sure. 

 

The problem with your comparison though is that there is also no societal pressure per se against those that are opposed to the idea of talking tomatoes. I personally am not overly concerned about the religious beliefs of a partner so long as they didn't cause harm to them or others and they didn't try to force them on me. I could date and maybe even marry a believer, but it would depend on the types and I can also see some people who might be more interested in someone that shares a worldview. TO look at it another way, look at dating websites like Geek2Geek, they deal with a sort of cultural group rather than religious, would wanting to date only other geeks be elitist?

I wouldn't say geeks wanting to date other geeks is elitist. You may want someone who shares your interests and hobbies, it gives you something to do together. It doesn't make much sense in the context of atheism, though: would you want someone you could meet up with so y'all could sit around and have a lack of belief together?

The geek wouldn't be saying that non-geeks are inferior in some way. However, I think that that is often the motivation behind atheists wanting to date only other atheists. 


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Joker wrote:jeffreyalex

Joker wrote:

jeffreyalex wrote:

harleysportster wrote:

jeffreyalex wrote:

 

Again, I'm not accusing YOU of anything. I don't know you. I know a lot of atheist who wouldn't date non-atheists, and I see dating websites specifically for atheists. Now I'm asking you, is that elitism?

I see tv commercials for Christian Singles. com all of the time. Is that elitism ? 

Depends on what you view as elitism. 

I don't think that I would want to date or marry a fundamentalist Christian, simply because I do not think that we would be able to get along. 

Let's take Atheism/ Theism out of the equation for a moment. 

There are simply some people that I am compatible with and others that I am simply not. Would it be elitism to put on a dating site what I am looking for ? 

I've never been to a dating and have no clue how they work, but I am sure that if I placed : seeking someone who likes ( insert whatever you wish here) that would simply mean the desire to seek some form of compatibility. 

Each case might be wholly unique. Some atheists on those websites might only wish to date other Atheists for personal reasons and it NOT have anything to do with thinking they are above a theist. They might simply have had some bad past experiences with dating non- Atheists. I said something to a girl one time about my ideas and see gave me this real disgusted look and said " YOU MEAN THAT YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD ? ! ,"  You would have thought I had said that I was for rape and torture of innocent people with her tone of voice and expression. 

Some atheists might actually BE somewhat elitist about it. 

I would have no way of knowing unless I could have further information about the motives of the person, be they theist or atheist. 

However, I would say that the last place that I would want to begin a date would be online. 

I don't know if there are any fellow country music fans here, but dating sites remind me of that song ( can't think of the singer) that says " I am so much cooler online." 

 

The distinction between a Christian dating site and an atheist one is important. Christianity is a belief, an affirmative belief that A, B, and C are true. Atheism, as I've been reminded many times, is not a belief—it is a "lack of belief". You couldn't organize a dating website around a lack of belief in talking tomatoes, for example. (Or heck, maybe you could).

I basically agree with the rest of what you said, though. I personally would not date any sort of fundamentalist, no way, no how. 

 

I think that lyric is from a Brad Paisley song, not 100% sure. 

 

The problem with your comparison though is that there is also no societal pressure per se against those that are opposed to the idea of talking tomatoes. I personally am not overly concerned about the religious beliefs of a partner so long as they didn't cause harm to them or others and they didn't try to force them on me. I could date and maybe even marry a believer, but it would depend on the types and I can also see some people who might be more interested in someone that shares a worldview. TO look at it another way, look at dating websites like Geek2Geek, they deal with a sort of cultural group rather than religious, would wanting to date only other geeks be elitist?

I wouldn't say geeks wanting to date other geeks is elitist. You may want someone who shares your interests and hobbies, it gives you something to do together. It doesn't make much sense in the context of atheism, though: would you want someone you could meet up with so y'all could sit around and have a lack of belief together?

The geek wouldn't be saying that non-geeks are inferior in some way. However, I think that that is often the motivation behind atheists wanting to date only other atheists. 

 

I am not saying that's the case for all atheists. I AM saying it's a noticeable trend. I think it's an unfortunate trend. 


ProzacDeathWish
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jeffreyalex wrote:I wouldn't

jeffreyalex wrote:

I wouldn't say geeks wanting to date other geeks is elitist. You may want someone who shares your interests and hobbies, it gives you something to do together. It doesn't make much sense in the context of atheism, though: would you want someone you could meet up with so y'all could sit around and have a lack of belief together?

 

  If religious belief had absolutely no impact upon society then perhaps sites such as this would fade away.  What unites atheists isn't simply our own lack of belief , it is the effects of others who do have belief.    The social impact of religious belief is reason enough to keep the atheist movement going.  You're looking at this completely backwards.

 

  In addition, if geeks around the country decided to band together and start a religion based upon Star Trek, declared Captain Kirk as a literal God and then began to lobby their lawmakers to pass ordinances that gave preferential treatment to their followers would you just ignore it ?        ...and I'm sure you wouldn't discuss the merits of Captain Kirk as God with some skepticism ? lol !

 

 

jeffreyalex wrote:
The geek wouldn't be saying that non-geeks are inferior in some way.....

 

  For years I used to *hang out with a bunch of Star Trek geeks ( aka, "trekkies" )  and  SCA geeks and believe me there is a pervasive sense of being "special" among them that is almost physical in its presence.  Most of them are educated, intelligent, scientifically literate and highly pompous. 

                                     

 

 

  

 

jeffreyalex wrote:
I am not saying that's the case for all atheists. I AM saying it's a noticeable trend. I think it's an unfortunate trend. 

 

     Yes, yes, of course again you are correct about we elitist atheists.   I was about to start a thread and suggest that we atheists start shaving our heads, begin wearing Doc Martin boots, and create some sort of official atheist one-armed salute to indicate our supremacy over other groups,  but now you're taking all the fun out of it.

 

 

  PS, needlessly edited many, many times due to boredom and massive caffeine consumption.

 

 

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.

"When a man loves cats, I am his friend and comrade, without further introduction." Mark Twain.


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Remember Interview with a Vampire ?

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
  ProzacDeathwish , For years I used to *hang out with a bunch of Star Trek geeks ( aka, "trekkies" )  and  SCA geeks and believe me there is a pervasive sense of being "special" among them.Most of them are educated, intelligent, scientifically literate and highly pompous.


jeffreyalex wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

jeffreyalex wrote:

 

 

 

How, would you say, is the sentiment "I only want to date white guys/girls" different from "I only want to date atheist guys/girls"? 

  My girlfriend is a Southern Baptist ( we started dating while I was still a Christian ) yet we are still together .

 

Uh, no? 

I'm asking a question to atheists who would only want to date other atheists.

  Jeffrey "you are the very spirit of these times"


 

excerpts of  Interview with a Vampire wrote:
Interview with a Vampire (abridged version)
Scene w/ Louis speaking to the Vampire Armand
 

LOUIS
No, my beloved, my child.
ARMAND
If you say so. You are so
innocent.
LOUIS
I'm not innocent. But I'm afraid.
She feels she's in danger from the
others.
ARMAND
She is.
LOUIS
But why? Why would they hurt
her. What right have they to do
anything to either of us!
ARMAND
They are the coven. They have
their laws. It's forbidden to
make one as young as she is, one
so helpless, one that cannot
survive on its own.
LOUIS
It wasn't her blunder!
ARMAND
She's too small to make a vampire
of a male or female old enough to
protect her. She can't... make
another at all. Do you know what
she hoped to find here?
LOUIS
Yes. She should have known such
a thing wasn't possible. But you
have to protect her.
Armand nods.
ARMAND
I know.
Louis sinks into the chair, looking up at Armand.
LOUIS
There was so much I wanted to
say to you, so much I wanted to
ask, to learn from you.
ARMAND
And I'm here to teach. I need
you, young one, just as you need
me. I'm the teacher Lestat
wouldn't be. And you're the
pupil he didn't want.
He draws close to Louis, a picture of boyish innocence.
ARMAND
How many vampires have the stamina
for immortality? Do you know
how quickly they perish of their
own will.
LOUIS
Yes, because I almost did it once
to myself.
ARMAND
No, you'd never give up on life.
I know you wouldn't. If the world
were reduced to one empty cell
and one fragile candle, you'd stay
in that cell studying that candle.
You see too clearly. You see too
much.
LOUIS
That's what Lestat said to me.
And I failed him! I wronged him.
Oh God.
ARMAND
(smiling)
ARMAND
I need you more than he ever did.
To make my link with this century,
to carry me into its art and its
philosophy, and all the things I
despair of understanding on my own.
LOUIS
Oh, but you'd be making a terrible
mistake. I'm at odds with
everything and always have been.
I wasted life when I had it. I
waste my gifts now. I have never
belonged anywhere with anyone at
anytime.
Armand laughs softly.
ARMAND
You are , .. Louis,
don't you realize everyone in this
Nineteenth Century feels as you
do? You are the very spirit of
these times!  .. Of the century.

Quote:
:

 


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 Danatemporary

 

Danatemporary wrote:
 

Jeffrey "you are the very spirit of these times" 

 

I'm not at all sure what you mean, but it sounds good. Ego likes. 


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jeffreyalex wrote:I wouldn't

jeffreyalex wrote:

I wouldn't say geeks wanting to date other geeks is elitist. You may want someone who shares your interests and hobbies, it gives you something to do together. It doesn't make much sense in the context of atheism, though: would you want someone you could meet up with so y'all could sit around and have a lack of belief together?

The geek wouldn't be saying that non-geeks are inferior in some way. However, I think that that is often the motivation behind atheists wanting to date only other atheists. 

 

I am not saying that's the case for all atheists. I AM saying it's a noticeable trend. I think it's an unfortunate trend. 

You'd be surprised, I have a female friend that refuses to date jocks, or as she refers to them 'meatheads' she pretty much prefers geeky guys, now that could be a type thing but there is also a kind of 'special' belief among some geeks, a lot of us/them tend to view ourselves as being smarter than average, and in being able to appreciate things on levels that a lot of other people can't. See also when they criticize the dumbing down of a hobby, television, society, etc. Idiocracy could even be described as a geek givign a middle finger to what they view as idiot culture.

Atheism is a bit trickier, to be honest for some of us it's less about nonbelief and more a kinship in terms of feeling like outsiders. In the US we're a very religious culture and it seeps into everything, I actually actively studied my own speech patterns one day and realized how often I'd use religious epithets or responses more or less automatically (thank God, etc,) just because I was so used to hearing or saying them. I'm fairly lucky in that my parents pretty much just asked me to not reveal it to my grandparents who are a lot more religious and also in somewhat failing health, not wanting to make things more awkward or difficult, and I can appreciate that. But I know people who were disowned by their parents, who were abandoned by friends when they gave up the religions they were raised in. To an extent the atheist movement creates a kind of kinship like that, people saying "You're not alone, there are a lot of us that don't believe, that think it's bullshit".


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jeffreyalex wrote:[ God is

jeffreyalex wrote:

[

 

God is the paradigm and root of morality. It isn't judged by any exterior moral standard. 

Imagine having a recording of a symphony performance on a record or CD. You could judge it's fidelity to the actual live performance. Maybe it's a great recording, maybe some instruments were drowned out or didn't record faithfully for some reason. But you can't compare the sound fidelity of the actual live performance to anything. That's it. That performance is the standard. 

And it is an excellent answer. If I take a position that the balloon I'm holding is blue, it doesn't follow that I need to take a position with regard to the color of any other balloon. That's just immediately obvious. 

 

 

 

If I may, let's go all the way back to Socrates then, shall we? Is it good because God loves it or does God love it because it is good? If an items intrinsic goodness or badness is determined only by your deities thoughts of it then we have a problem where your deity apparently can change its mind (see also the whole issue where apparently God had to sacrifice himself to himself to undo his own decisions) and where in at least several holy books your deity in question is convinced to change a position, implying that it can be argued on things. If God loves it because it is good we avoid that problem, but instead face a new issue, that your good is in fact independent of your deity and not requiring it at all for the purposes of determining good/evil/etc.

We could also discuss the problems of the divine command model of morality, where in essence the only measure of good or bad is what the holy book or its interpreters claim which in turn means that slavery is good, compassion is bad, racism is preferred, or not, etc. And as your deity seems awfully bashful about showing itself we depend on the interpretations of others since this book refuses to be clear cut and coherent without producing things that a sane person would view as morally abominable.


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Joker wrote: Atheism is a

Joker wrote:

 

Atheism is a bit trickier, to be honest for some of us it's less about nonbelief and more a kinship in terms of feeling like outsiders. In the US we're a very religious culture and it seeps into everything, I actually actively studied my own speech patterns one day and realized how often I'd use religious epithets or responses more or less automatically (thank God, etc,) just because I was so used to hearing or saying them. I'm fairly lucky in that my parents pretty much just asked me to not reveal it to my grandparents who are a lot more religious and also in somewhat failing health, not wanting to make things more awkward or difficult, and I can appreciate that. But I know people who were disowned by their parents, who were abandoned by friends when they gave up the religions they were raised in. To an extent the atheist movement creates a kind of kinship like that, people saying "You're not alone, there are a lot of us that don't believe, that think it's bullshit".

I couldn't agree more, Joker. 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Joker wrote:jeffreyalex

Joker wrote:

jeffreyalex wrote:

[

 

God is the paradigm and root of morality. It isn't judged by any exterior moral standard. 

Imagine having a recording of a symphony performance on a record or CD. You could judge it's fidelity to the actual live performance. Maybe it's a great recording, maybe some instruments were drowned out or didn't record faithfully for some reason. But you can't compare the sound fidelity of the actual live performance to anything. That's it. That performance is the standard. 

And it is an excellent answer. If I take a position that the balloon I'm holding is blue, it doesn't follow that I need to take a position with regard to the color of any other balloon. That's just immediately obvious. 

 

 

 

If I may, let's go all the way back to Socrates then, shall we? Is it good because God loves it or does God love it because it is good? If an items intrinsic goodness or badness is determined only by your deities thoughts of it then we have a problem where your deity apparently can change its mind (see also the whole issue where apparently God had to sacrifice himself to himself to undo his own decisions) and where in at least several holy books your deity in question is convinced to change a position, implying that it can be argued on things. If God loves it because it is good we avoid that problem, but instead face a new issue, that your good is in fact independent of your deity and not requiring it at all for the purposes of determining good/evil/etc.

We could also discuss the problems of the divine command model of morality, where in essence the only measure of good or bad is what the holy book or its interpreters claim which in turn means that slavery is good, compassion is bad, racism is preferred, or not, etc. And as your deity seems awfully bashful about showing itself we depend on the interpretations of others since this book refuses to be clear cut and coherent without producing things that a sane person would view as morally abominable.

 

I am saying that on atheism there is no objective morality. That doesn't commit me to defending the claim that deism or theism gives objective morality. 

You've brought up the Euthyphro dilemma and divine command. If it's an interesting question to you, there's a whole scholarly rigorous literature of responses and debate around it. I'm not particularly interested in talking about it here for the reason that the conversation would go nowhere and make no point I'm interesting in making at this time. 

Also, there is a difference between moral ontology (the question of whether objective morality exists, at all) and the question of moral epistemology (the question of how we can know what morality demands). Again, a huge scholarly literature, but not a subject I think can be productively discussed in the context of a forum.