What Kind Of Evidence?

jeffreyalex
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What Kind Of Evidence?

So, my question is What would you make of it if the following happened to you?

 

I had a roommate a few years ago. He was a rather militant atheist as was I, at the time. He had the following experiences, which I know to be true. 

He was 20 at the time. He had been in a relationship with a boy named James for just over two years. They had met only twice, and he lived in Texas, whereas we lived in NYC. Nonetheless, they spoke everyday, wrote letters, etc. James was a couple years younger and when his parents found out he was a homo they took away his phone, computer, cut his hair, and sent him to a Christian school. Soon, after a short while of communicating with my friend Allen via mutual friends, James called it off, and then had somewhat of a breakdown. Allen was upset, naturally. At this same time I was gifted a CD called Messages From Spirit. It was a guided meditation that leads you in asking "Spirit" for guidance. Then you just have to keep your eyes peeled for 'messages' or symbols, things that stick out in your daily life. It came with a booklet/dictionary of symbols that would help you interpret what they meant. I gave it to Allen and he actually listened to it. His questions were, of course, 'does James still love me' and 'what should I do next' (because from the way the breakup went James gave the impression that he was now going to be straight and said that he hated Allen and wished he'd just disappear). 

I had endless fun making fun of this ridiculousness. The next morning, I dragged moping Allen to jog on the beach with me, something I did most days. After running two sections (sections are what we call the strips separated by jetties) we saw rose petals all over the shore and floating on the water, pink and white, easily thousands. They covered the water from jetty to jetty, about 150 feet wide, and out to about 70 feet off the shore. Allen noted that this must be a sign. I admitted that I at least, in five years of running by every morning and some evenings, had never seen anything like that. We kept going and ran across a big pile of organized shells. Again, Allen noted it must be a sign. I commented, exact words, "And what pray tell dear Allen are scallop shells a sign of, exactly?" He didn't respond except to say that we would consult the booklet upon returning home. On the run back I pointed out a ship offshore, which Allen noted as another sign. Again, I was suspicious that a ship was a sign of anything relevant to the situation. However, it was true that large ships rarely passed where we saw it pass.

Upon getting back to the apartment, we consulted the booklet. White roses are the sign for divine love, pink roses are the sign of romantic love. Okay, iffy, but okay, relevant. Shells were not listed in the booklet, so I googled "scallop shell"... otherwise known, it turns out, as the Shell of Saint James (thank you Wiki). And finally, a ship indicates a trip. I reminded that we were going to take a trip to Florida in two weeks, to stay with my Dad and little brothers. Allen thought it might mean he should go to Texas. 

I said it was interesting and left the room, to go to my own room. Allen came into my room and sat on the bed saying "it's a little weird, huh?" I said, "I guess". He got up to leave and on his way out knocked down three books I had on my shelf by the door, two written be James Merrill and one by James Joyce. 

At this point, I wasn't convinced of anything. But fast-forward two weeks and we're in Florida at my dad's house on Valentines day. 

We were sitting upstairs when Allen got a text from Courtney, a mutual friend of ours and James' saying that he, James, had been really a mess lately. I suggested, half-jokingly, that Allen do the Messages meditation again, which he did. Right after, we went downstairs to the backyard for the BBQ we were having. My brother Daniel who was 7 at the time comes up to Allen and starts singing a song which goes "Fifty, nifty, United States, fromt he thirteen original cooolonieesss...". Allen starts crying and goes inside. James once sang that same song to Allen and then Allen would insist that James sing it on a frequent basis. It was a big point of contention between them whether the song was popular or not. Allen had never heard it, he ran it by me more than a year ago at that point, and I'd never heard it. 

At that point, I heard the doorbell and went to the door. It was UPS with an Amazon delivery. I had ordered a book. I opened the packaged only to find that it was not the book I'd ordered but a book of PostSecret cards. Disappointed, I went to find Allen. I went up to the guest room where he was doing the Message meditation yet again. I asked what the question was. It was 'Does James love me?' Not a minute later does a helium balloon alight on our balcony with the words I Love You written on it. Admittedly, I'd tied the balloon to the chair I was sitting in write beneath those windows, but still. Allen looked at me and said, "Maybe I should go to Texas? What's in your hand?" I told him it was a book but not the one I ordered, and handed it over. Allen said out loud, "Should I go to Texas?" and then, as if he knew it would be there, opened the book I'd just mistakenly received to a random middle page with a facsimile of a PostSecret that read 'Take that trip you're thinking of. It'll be good.' He looked at me and said. "At this point I'm waiting for a burning bush to talk to me or for the clouds to just open up". And I understood what he meant. 

As it turned out, it was good. Allen would go to Texas for four months but he wouldn't see James. However, a long while after he'd returned to New York, James finally came around and told Allen it meant the world to him that he'd gone to be there, and they're still best friends. Happy ending. 

 

 

 


jeffreyalex
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 ...chair I was sitting in

 ...chair I was sitting in right* beneath...**

 


A_Nony_Mouse
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jeffreyalex wrote:
...chair I was sitting in right* beneath...**
 

Why do you and your god, by some strange surrogacy, give a rat's ass about how people jerk off?

I can see women being against gays but any rational straight male encourages gays as it increases his odds. Are you against gay men because it decreases your odds?

I estimate the limits of my endurance would be reached with a 20% exclusively gay male population. Do you have any suggestions as to how I can encourage the fraction?

Much obliged.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


harleysportster
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jeffreyalex wrote:r running

jeffreyalex wrote:

r running two sections (sections are what we call the strips separated by jetties) we saw rose petals all over the shore and floating on the water, pink and white, easily thousands. They covered the water from jetty to jetty, about 150 feet wide, and out to about 70 feet off the shore. Allen noted that this must be a sign. I admitted that I at least, in five years of running by every morning and some evenings, had never seen anything like that. We kept going and ran across a big pile of organized shells. Again, Allen noted it must be a sign. I commented, exact words, "And what pray tell dear Allen are scallop shells a sign of, exactly?" He didn't respond except to say that we would consult the booklet upon returning home. On the run back I pointed out a ship offshore, which Allen noted as another sign. Again, I was suspicious that a ship was a sign of anything relevant to the situation. However, it was true that large ships rarely passed where we saw it pass.

Upon getting back to the apartment, we consulted the booklet. White roses are the sign for divine love, pink roses are the sign of romantic love. Okay, iffy, but okay, relevant. Shells were not listed in the booklet, so I googled "scallop shell"... otherwise known, it turns out, as the Shell of Saint James (thank you Wiki). And finally, a ship indicates a trip. I reminded that we were going to take a trip to Florida in two weeks, to stay with my Dad and little brothers. Allen thought it might mean he should go to Texas. 

 

How many people that day might have seen those "thousands" of rose petals ?  How many other people might have encountered that pile of organized shells ? 

I once turned on the radio when mulling over an issue. The song playing on the radio was totally appropriate to my situation and could not have been better timed. HOWEVER, it hit me, this radio station is one of the biggest in the state and serves over 75 counties and all of the metropolitan area of my city. How many people were hearing this same song ? How many people were tuning in on their morning commute. Hundreds ? Thousands ? 

Why would the universe adjust an entire radio station to let me hear the one tune that I needed to hear for that day ? 

Human minds seek patterns, human minds try to discern their surroundings and how it may relate to them. You can find signs if you look hard enough or not. 

I had a close childhood friend that I went to school with.  We grew up in New Jersey. I later moved to the state that I currently reside in and he moved further north. 

On a trip one time, flights got tangled up and I ended up in San Francisco.  I ran right into him in the airport terminal. His flight was messed up too. What are the chances of that ? I don't know, but nothing major resulted from it. Nothing really miraculous there. 

We see signs if we choose to see them. We can read all sorts of interpretations into things that might not be there. 

Dan Barker, an ex-minister, said that he once got this "intuitive feeling" to turn right on a road trip one time. So he did. He drove for a few miles and got another intuition to go in another direction. Nothing happened. 

How many signs have we experienced that ultimately proved nothing and how many signs have we seen that could have meant something ? If you make the comparison, it proves nothing. 

 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


jeffreyalex
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A_Nony_Mouse

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

jeffreyalex wrote:
...chair I was sitting in right* beneath...**
 

Why do you and your god, by some strange surrogacy, give a rat's ass about how people jerk off?

I can see women being against gays but any rational straight male encourages gays as it increases his odds. Are you against gay men because it decreases your odds?

I estimate the limits of my endurance would be reached with a 20% exclusively gay male population. Do you have any suggestions as to how I can encourage the fraction?

Much obliged.

 

As usual, I'm not sure what you're talking about.


jeffreyalex
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harleysportster

harleysportster wrote:

jeffreyalex wrote:

r running two sections (sections are what we call the strips separated by jetties) we saw rose petals all over the shore and floating on the water, pink and white, easily thousands. They covered the water from jetty to jetty, about 150 feet wide, and out to about 70 feet off the shore. Allen noted that this must be a sign. I admitted that I at least, in five years of running by every morning and some evenings, had never seen anything like that. We kept going and ran across a big pile of organized shells. Again, Allen noted it must be a sign. I commented, exact words, "And what pray tell dear Allen are scallop shells a sign of, exactly?" He didn't respond except to say that we would consult the booklet upon returning home. On the run back I pointed out a ship offshore, which Allen noted as another sign. Again, I was suspicious that a ship was a sign of anything relevant to the situation. However, it was true that large ships rarely passed where we saw it pass.

Upon getting back to the apartment, we consulted the booklet. White roses are the sign for divine love, pink roses are the sign of romantic love. Okay, iffy, but okay, relevant. Shells were not listed in the booklet, so I googled "scallop shell"... otherwise known, it turns out, as the Shell of Saint James (thank you Wiki). And finally, a ship indicates a trip. I reminded that we were going to take a trip to Florida in two weeks, to stay with my Dad and little brothers. Allen thought it might mean he should go to Texas. 

 

How many people that day might have seen those "thousands" of rose petals ?  How many other people might have encountered that pile of organized shells ? 

I once turned on the radio when mulling over an issue. The song playing on the radio was totally appropriate to my situation and could not have been better timed. HOWEVER, it hit me, this radio station is one of the biggest in the state and serves over 75 counties and all of the metropolitan area of my city. How many people were hearing this same song ? How many people were tuning in on their morning commute. Hundreds ? Thousands ? 

Why would the universe adjust an entire radio station to let me hear the one tune that I needed to hear for that day ? 

Human minds seek patterns, human minds try to discern their surroundings and how it may relate to them. You can find signs if you look hard enough or not. 

I had a close childhood friend that I went to school with.  We grew up in New Jersey. I later moved to the state that I currently reside in and he moved further north. 

On a trip one time, flights got tangled up and I ended up in San Francisco.  I ran right into him in the airport terminal. His flight was messed up too. What are the chances of that ? I don't know, but nothing major resulted from it. Nothing really miraculous there. 

We see signs if we choose to see them. We can read all sorts of interpretations into things that might not be there. 

Dan Barker, an ex-minister, said that he once got this "intuitive feeling" to turn right on a road trip one time. So he did. He drove for a few miles and got another intuition to go in another direction. Nothing happened. 

How many signs have we experienced that ultimately proved nothing and how many signs have we seen that could have meant something ? If you make the comparison, it proves nothing. 

 

I would agree with you that one coincidence wouldn't be much to ponder. 

I'm sure at least a few people saw the shells before the pile was washed away, but I'd bet none of those people were struck by them as possibly having a meaning, for no reason. And I'm pretty sure they didn't prompt anyone else to google 'scallop shell'.

And, of course, my point is that there was a strangely large number of very clear objective signs.

 


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You can't telll me Big feets is not real (*sob .. sobbing) :

 
 

Jeffrey wrote:
.. And, of course, my point is that there was a strangely large number of very clear objective signs.

 
Gospel verse,  "The wind blows where it chooses, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So is it with every one who has been born of the Spirit."

 

Jeffrey wrote:
.. And, of course, my point is that there was a strangely large number of very clear objective signs.

 

     The verse isnt exactly referring to a deity. I think it is a reference to the 'Spirit' in the account. Okay. Let's talk. Talk at least a second  about something with no intention of changing the direction of the thread nor of the subject itself. Bigfeets. Most people do not hold to a belief in Bigfeets. There is a small amount of evidence that is compelling to my mind.  Jimmy Chilcutt is someone, a person, I would listen to. Chilcutt, is skeptical by nature. His job as a fingerprint technician at the Conroe Police Department. You may have heard about him. naturally -- being careful and thorough -- he ended up rocking his own skepticism about one of the most sensational tales that routinely show up in the tabloids. Chilcutt's quest to squeeze more information out of fingerprints led him to develop a rare expertise in nonhuman primate prints. He tried to use his special knowledge to debunk alleged evidence of Sasquatch. His interest was piqued, however, when he heard the term "dermal ridges," a reference to fingerprints. After listened closely as Dr. Jeff Meldrum, associate professor of anatomy at Idaho State University, held a casting of a supposed  evidence. With the print ridges on the bottoms of five castings -- Chilcutt is on record to have said. "I believe that this is an animal in the Pacific Northwest that we have never documented." The man is considered an expert in primate finger printing and has prints on every known primate. He explained dermal lines in the sasquatch tracks run vertical, while those of man are horizontal, and apes are slanted. n addition, Chilcutt found the dermal ridges of sasquatch to be about twice the thickness of a human. He even found scarring, which would cause the dermal ridges to curve inward. He finally concluded the sets of foot prints examined were authentic and that North America had a new primate unknown to science. Basic on the direction and the pattern of the dermal ridges in these castings. He began examining fingerprints to determine whether there were differences based on looking about about one-thousand non-human primate prints as comparison.
Glander .. briefly aquainted at Duke with Chilicutt said: "Do I believe in Bigfeets? I don't know, but I think it's one of those things that is interesting and intriguing."

   By-Line or Subjectline is a obvious joke  IT is exclusively directed at Brian37.  Brian37 is not too likely to believe in a Sasquatch.  With Respect, I am not too convinced in 'Sasquatch' ever having  existed, .. however I would not discount it out of hand. I might have to reverse myself at any moment.  This might be used as a clear sign of a sort. Your thoughts ?

 

 


Atheistextremist
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I'm pretty sure the interpretation

 

 

of random signs, including cracks of thunder, flocks of geese, piles of shells and stray rose petals as being relevant to entirely unassociated aspects of one's personal life falls under the headings of 'motivated reasoning' and 'cognitive bias'. Seeing 'signs' reflects the human tendendency towards the anthropocentric.  

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

 

of random signs, including cracks of thunder, flocks of geese, piles of shells and stray rose petals as being relevant to entirely unassociated aspects of one's personal life falls under the headings of 'motivated reasoning' and 'cognitive bias'. Seeing 'signs' reflects the human tendendency towards the anthropocentric.  

 

 

Within a twenty minute period:

Q: Is it time to give up? 

And ten minutes later my little brother, for no reason, sings the guy a song he'd only ever heard James, the guy the question was about, sing. 

Q: Does he still love me?

And a balloon that says 'I love you' lands on the balcony.

Q: Should I go to Texas?

And he opens I book that was sent to me by mistake right open to a picture of a postcard that reads 'Take the trip you're thinking of'.

 

 

That's not the interpretation of thunder or geese. Somehow, I don't see that there was much of a stretch in interpretation here. 

The kid asked for a sign, and he got it in plain English. I, personally, understand why that was the end of his strong atheism. 

 


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 I really do think that

 I really do think that it's quite strange that no body will admit that if those were coincidences, then they were very unlikely, uncanny coincidences. 


ProzacDeathWish
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jeffreyalex wrote: I really

jeffreyalex wrote:

 I really do think that it's quite strange that no body will admit that if those were coincidences, then they were very unlikely, uncanny coincidences. 

                                           They were coincidences.

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> ? Incorrectly titled or is that a matter of interpretation ?

 Tell me when the conversation turns to what are considered evidences (I must return to the bot ALICE for the time being).Only a little off more towards an evidentiary pursuit . Anytime you are ready, ... there is always  'Big Feet'  fun without an attempt to divert **FROM**  your central topic,  or what the OP has cited, and NOT veering off track.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 Strange and uncanny ALICE quote .. <quote> A.L.I.C.E.: It's all part of God's mysterious plans. </quote>

 

 

 


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jeffreyalex wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

jeffreyalex wrote:
...chair I was sitting in right* beneath...**
 

Why do you and your god, by some strange surrogacy, give a rat's ass about how people jerk off?

I can see women being against gays but any rational straight male encourages gays as it increases his odds. Are you against gay men because it decreases your odds?

I estimate the limits of my endurance would be reached with a 20% exclusively gay male population. Do you have any suggestions as to how I can encourage the fraction?

Much obliged.

As usual, I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Take a guess.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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jeffreyalex wrote:
Atheistextremist wrote:

of random signs, including cracks of thunder, flocks of geese, piles of shells and stray rose petals as being relevant to entirely unassociated aspects of one's personal life falls under the headings of 'motivated reasoning' and 'cognitive bias'. Seeing 'signs' reflects the human tendendency towards the anthropocentric.

Within a twenty minute period:

Q: Is it time to give up? 

And ten minutes later my little brother, for no reason, sings the guy a song he'd only ever heard James, the guy the question was about, sing. 

Q: Does he still love me?

And a balloon that says 'I love you' lands on the balcony.

Q: Should I go to Texas?

And he opens I book that was sent to me by mistake right open to a picture of a postcard that reads 'Take the trip you're thinking of'.

That's not the interpretation of thunder or geese. Somehow, I don't see that there was much of a stretch in interpretation here. 

The kid asked for a sign, and he got it in plain English. I, personally, understand why that was the end of his strong atheism. 

Karl Jung, Synchronicity, google it. Be sure to read the links which ridicule the idea also.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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My brother asked me a few

My brother asked me a few weeks in advance to go on a business trip to Missouri with him.  I said maybe.

An old girlfriend calls me later the next day and asked if I would help her move during the same time of the trip.  I said maybe if I don't go to Missouri.

I later decided to stay and help her move.

On the road to missouri my brother smashes head -on with a semi and dies.  And I surely would be dead also if i had been in the car.

Now let's go back. If I would have been looking for a sign to decide to go on the trip or not, I would likely have seen my girls call as one, since there was nothing else seemingly significant to that future time period.

But it wasn't a sign, because I wasn't looking for one.

(As Harley mentioned) No mystical power of the universe centered me and all the events that led up to my decision, nor were any changes made to any events.

Now you might say that was just one thing.  Well there were many many things that led up to that phone call and my decision. If we want to be extremely ridiculous we can trace it all the way back to the big bang.

But all those little events are only significant to the eye of the beholder.  I could very well say that whatever events led me to be able to hear my phone ring were significant. If I would have been looking or wishing for a sign hard enough I would have seen many.

To believe in such signs, logically you would also have to believe that there are no coincidences at all and each keystroke I'm making right now was all mapped out in a master plan.

Also take time into consideration.  Take this phone call scenario for example in the perspective of one who sees signs. IF you stretched these events out into a year would they seem at all significant?

And the number of coincidences are insignificant in comparison to the many events that lead up to it.  In the overall numbers it's tiny.

To the one who sees what he wants to they are huge. 

Some people are just incapable of stepping back to see a larger view of things. Strangely enough they also seem to be unable to examine small details. They can do neither without distorting reality to fit their static mindset.

I used to be one of those people.  Then I realized I was delusional. 

A few coincidences in relatively short span are not significant to the entire workings of the universe. And so they are really not significant at all, unless you want them to be.

Sounds a lot like faith.

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


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A_Nony_Mouse

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

jeffreyalex wrote:
Atheistextremist wrote:

of random signs, including cracks of thunder, flocks of geese, piles of shells and stray rose petals as being relevant to entirely unassociated aspects of one's personal life falls under the headings of 'motivated reasoning' and 'cognitive bias'. Seeing 'signs' reflects the human tendendency towards the anthropocentric.

Within a twenty minute period:

Q: Is it time to give up? 

And ten minutes later my little brother, for no reason, sings the guy a song he'd only ever heard James, the guy the question was about, sing. 

Q: Does he still love me?

And a balloon that says 'I love you' lands on the balcony.

Q: Should I go to Texas?

And he opens I book that was sent to me by mistake right open to a picture of a postcard that reads 'Take the trip you're thinking of'.

That's not the interpretation of thunder or geese. Somehow, I don't see that there was much of a stretch in interpretation here. 

The kid asked for a sign, and he got it in plain English. I, personally, understand why that was the end of his strong atheism. 

Karl Jung, Synchronicity, google it. Be sure to read the links which ridicule the idea also.

 

One day Jung went to visit Sigmund Freud. As they were talking Freud observed that Jung was visibly uncomfortable, when suddenly a glass cracked. Jung said he knew something like that was going to happen, but of course Freud ridiculed him for being silly. Jung responded that he knew it would happen again in just another minute. Freud continued to tell him that it was just a coincidence and he was being foolish when, after no more than a minute, another glass did, in fact, as Jung said, break. Freud dismissed it. 

In this case, Jung entertained the idea that something might be behind this, whereas Freud simply dismissed what didn't fit in with his already decided views. And I think Jung was right here.

 

By the way, I'm surprised you'd refer to Jung.


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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

jeffreyalex wrote:

 I really do think that it's quite strange that no body will admit that if those were coincidences, then they were very unlikely, uncanny coincidences. 

                                           They were coincidences.

Maybe, maybe not. 


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tonyjeffers wrote:My brother

tonyjeffers wrote:

My brother asked me a few weeks in advance to go on a business trip to Missouri with him.  I said maybe.

An old girlfriend calls me later the next day and asked if I would help her move during the same time of the trip.  I said maybe if I don't go to Missouri.

I later decided to stay and help her move.

On the road to missouri my brother smashes head -on with a semi and dies.  And I surely would be dead also if i had been in the car.

Now let's go back. If I would have been looking for a sign to decide to go on the trip or not, I would likely have seen my girls call as one, since there was nothing else seemingly significant to that future time period.

But it wasn't a sign, because I wasn't looking for one.

(As Harley mentioned) No mystical power of the universe centered me and all the events that led up to my decision, nor were any changes made to any events.

Now you might say that was just one thing.  Well there were many many things that led up to that phone call and my decision. If we want to be extremely ridiculous we can trace it all the way back to the big bang.

But all those little events are only significant to the eye of the beholder.  I could very well say that whatever events led me to be able to hear my phone ring were significant. If I would have been looking or wishing for a sign hard enough I would have seen many.

To believe in such signs, logically you would also have to believe that there are no coincidences at all and each keystroke I'm making right now was all mapped out in a master plan.

Also take time into consideration.  Take this phone call scenario for example in the perspective of one who sees signs. IF you stretched these events out into a year would they seem at all significant?

And the number of coincidences are insignificant in comparison to the many events that lead up to it.  In the overall numbers it's tiny.

To the one who sees what he wants to they are huge. 

Some people are just incapable of stepping back to see a larger view of things. Strangely enough they also seem to be unable to examine small details. They can do neither without distorting reality to fit their static mindset.

I used to be one of those people.  Then I realized I was delusional. 

A few coincidences in relatively short span are not significant to the entire workings of the universe. And so they are really not significant at all, unless you want them to be.

Sounds a lot like faith.

 

I'm sorry to hear about your brother.

I don't, however, see this as an analogous situation. If you had directly asked a higher power for guidance with regard to whether you should have gone or stayed, and then a minute later had opened a newspaper, for example, and one that was delivered to your house by accident that day, opened it directly to a story about a guy and his brother who were killed on a business trip, then this would be an analogous situation. 

If under those circumstances you didn't think that just maybe something a bit mysterious was going on, I would be surprised. I would say you were being irrational for dismissing something like that out of hand. 


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jeffreyalex wrote:Maybe,

jeffreyalex wrote:

Maybe, maybe not. 

 

     Okay, then God did it. 

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One big step for man, one giant foot for mankind ..

   

Quote:
Okay, then God did it.

 

   If this was JesusLoveYOU  would he understand you were being sarcastic ?

===========================================================================================================================

 

Thread trasher Dana wrote:
<Thread trasher log>

 The nature of evidence. Evidence should be of a certain nature. Again, Be sure I am not seeking in any  way  to veer off the examples of the OP. If Extreme Tony and ProzacDeathWish require something more concrete, WITHOUT the interest in the placement of shells and prompting of the Spirit ? If not. Shouldnt that prompt and demand you ask Jeffrey: What would then ? What if we cannot perceive it with our senses ?  Oh,  Big Feet is 'Still' standing by . . .  Whenever you find the time.  This conversation thus far is hardly at a break-neck speed, thus far. So, you can comment on my original example on an unrelated topic.

 

 


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My mom, who was a good

My mom, who was a good southern Baptist, but at the same time a closet Spiritualist, often spoke of such things in relation to her dreams and what she called "flashes"(images that "flashed" in her minds eye in the time just before dropping off to sleep). It was horseshit, as is this. It begs the question of why God would go to such elaborate means of getting a message across when he supposedly is omniscient and omnipotent? Kind of like when the bad guys on the old Batman TV show would capture the Dynamic Duo and then try to do them in in some elaborate way that they could easily escape from.Even as a kid I used to ask, "Why don't they just shoot them both in the head.?" But then a follow episode would've not been possible. Perhaps God should write for TV.

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jeffreyalex wrote: I really

jeffreyalex wrote:

 I really do think that it's quite strange that no body will admit that if those were coincidences, then they were very unlikely, uncanny coincidences. 

Funny how none of that ever happened to me. Despite asking the same or similar questions.

I've heard enough of these tales to know most of them are partial or complete manifestations of the minds of theists. They constantly have incredible stories of coincidence. Yet none of them have ever been independently verified nor recorded. In an age where 80% of the population carries around a video/picture recorder, this strains credulity well beyond the breaking point.

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Vastet wrote:jeffreyalex

Vastet wrote:
jeffreyalex wrote:

 I really do think that it's quite strange that no body will admit that if those were coincidences, then they were very unlikely, uncanny coincidences. 

Funny how none of that ever happened to me. Despite asking the same or similar questions. I've heard enough of these tales to know most of them are partial or complete manifestations of the minds of theists. They constantly have incredible stories of coincidence. Yet none of them have ever been independently verified nor recorded. In an age where 80% of the population carries around a video/picture recorder, this strains credulity well beyond the breaking point.

 

But just because you ask a question and don't receive any answer doesn't mean that no person ever receives answers, does it? No, it doesn't.

And just because something wasn't recorded doesn't mean it didn't happen, does it? No, it doesn't.

And I didn't ask you to believe anything, did I? No, I didn't. The question is If you yourself experienced something similar would it at all challenge your worldview? And if not, why not?

 

 


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Marty Hamrick wrote:My mom,

Marty Hamrick wrote:

My mom, who was a good southern Baptist, but at the same time a closet Spiritualist, often spoke of such things in relation to her dreams and what she called "flashes"(images that "flashed" in her minds eye in the time just before dropping off to sleep). It was horseshit, as is this. It begs the question of why God would go to such elaborate means of getting a message across when he supposedly is omniscient and omnipotent? Kind of like when the bad guys on the old Batman TV show would capture the Dynamic Duo and then try to do them in in some elaborate way that they could easily escape from.Even as a kid I used to ask, "Why don't they just shoot them both in the head.?" But then a follow episode would've not been possible. Perhaps God should write for TV.

 

The simple answer to why God wouldn't descend from clouds and scream an answer at us might be that it would take away our free will—we would have little choice between belief and disbelief if we suddenly heard a booming voice surround us, etc. 

Also, the question of Why? isn't relevant, at all. If my mom came into my room and spilled a pot of borscht on me I could ask Why? and get no answer. Nonetheless, I'd be covered in borscht.

I fail to see how having images before sleep, in your own mind, is the same as objective signs you observe while wide awake. 

 

And Marty, what exactly is horseshit? I reported events that I know to be true and asked you what reaction you might have if you'd experienced them yourself. 


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jeffreyalex

jeffreyalex wrote:

tonyjeffers wrote:

My brother asked me a few weeks in advance to go on a business trip to Missouri with him.  I said maybe.

An old girlfriend calls me later the next day and asked if I would help her move during the same time of the trip.  I said maybe if I don't go to Missouri.

I later decided to stay and help her move.

On the road to missouri my brother smashes head -on with a semi and dies.  And I surely would be dead also if i had been in the car.

Now let's go back. If I would have been looking for a sign to decide to go on the trip or not, I would likely have seen my girls call as one, since there was nothing else seemingly significant to that future time period.

But it wasn't a sign, because I wasn't looking for one.

(As Harley mentioned) No mystical power of the universe centered me and all the events that led up to my decision, nor were any changes made to any events.

Now you might say that was just one thing.  Well there were many many things that led up to that phone call and my decision. If we want to be extremely ridiculous we can trace it all the way back to the big bang.

But all those little events are only significant to the eye of the beholder.  I could very well say that whatever events led me to be able to hear my phone ring were significant. If I would have been looking or wishing for a sign hard enough I would have seen many.

To believe in such signs, logically you would also have to believe that there are no coincidences at all and each keystroke I'm making right now was all mapped out in a master plan.

Also take time into consideration.  Take this phone call scenario for example in the perspective of one who sees signs. IF you stretched these events out into a year would they seem at all significant?

And the number of coincidences are insignificant in comparison to the many events that lead up to it.  In the overall numbers it's tiny.

To the one who sees what he wants to they are huge. 

Some people are just incapable of stepping back to see a larger view of things. Strangely enough they also seem to be unable to examine small details. They can do neither without distorting reality to fit their static mindset.

I used to be one of those people.  Then I realized I was delusional. 

A few coincidences in relatively short span are not significant to the entire workings of the universe. And so they are really not significant at all, unless you want them to be.

Sounds a lot like faith.

 

I'm sorry to hear about your brother.

I don't, however, see this as an analogous situation. If you had directly asked a higher power for guidance with regard to whether you should have gone or stayed, and then a minute later had opened a newspaper, for example, and one that was delivered to your house by accident that day, opened it directly to a story about a guy and his brother who were killed on a business trip, then this would be an analogous situation. 

If under those circumstances you didn't think that just maybe something a bit mysterious was going on, I would be surprised. I would say you were being irrational for dismissing something like that out of hand. 

Well, I've had some pretty unlikely coincidences occur.  And when I was a christian I would also ask for signs and guidance.  Sometimes I thought I received them, and sometimes not.  I would even tell myself that there was no way it was coincidence.

Even after leaving faith I've had things that seemed "mysterious" happen. But I had to use reason.

I didn't intend that story to be a perfect analogy. It was the best I had to get to a couple points.-

The main one being that the implications of such theory ultimately leads to such incredible stretches of the imagination, that it doesn't take long to see you will arrive at non-sense. 

Ask for a sign. 

This power must then have to center on you to alter such a huge multitude of small events to lead to the one to show you the way.  Perhaps only a schitzophrenic could fully grasp what it would have to entail.  Form what I've read they tend to trace things back in their head until something else can divert them. For instance they think of a shoe. Then it's made of leather, leather from a cow, cow from a farm.......and so on until re-directed.

But even the alteration of events fails miserably.

Eventually you must deduce that the whole history of the universe had to lead up to that sign, or that every single little thing past, present, and future has been mapped out and we are just going thru the motions and god knew you would ask for that sign when he created the universe and he hadn't forgot about it.  I think you get my drift. No need to dissect it anymore.

amazing coincidences do occur. The universe is filled with amazing things. Still no proof a higher power had a hand in any of it.

People seem to be under the impression that all atheists don't want there to be a god, or that we would be greatly disappointed if one showed up.  I personally would would be thrilled in hopes he would answer a whole lot of questions for us or give us some new super-powers and end all the misery in the world, etc. I just hope if there is one it ain't that sick bastard in the bible.

But we aint holdin' our breath.  That's what separates us.

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


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tonyjeffers

tonyjeffers wrote:

jeffreyalex wrote:

tonyjeffers wrote:

My brother asked me a few weeks in advance to go on a business trip to Missouri with him.  I said maybe.

An old girlfriend calls me later the next day and asked if I would help her move during the same time of the trip.  I said maybe if I don't go to Missouri.

I later decided to stay and help her move.

On the road to missouri my brother smashes head -on with a semi and dies.  And I surely would be dead also if i had been in the car.

Now let's go back. If I would have been looking for a sign to decide to go on the trip or not, I would likely have seen my girls call as one, since there was nothing else seemingly significant to that future time period.

But it wasn't a sign, because I wasn't looking for one.

(As Harley mentioned) No mystical power of the universe centered me and all the events that led up to my decision, nor were any changes made to any events.

Now you might say that was just one thing.  Well there were many many things that led up to that phone call and my decision. If we want to be extremely ridiculous we can trace it all the way back to the big bang.

But all those little events are only significant to the eye of the beholder.  I could very well say that whatever events led me to be able to hear my phone ring were significant. If I would have been looking or wishing for a sign hard enough I would have seen many.

To believe in such signs, logically you would also have to believe that there are no coincidences at all and each keystroke I'm making right now was all mapped out in a master plan.

Also take time into consideration.  Take this phone call scenario for example in the perspective of one who sees signs. IF you stretched these events out into a year would they seem at all significant?

And the number of coincidences are insignificant in comparison to the many events that lead up to it.  In the overall numbers it's tiny.

To the one who sees what he wants to they are huge. 

Some people are just incapable of stepping back to see a larger view of things. Strangely enough they also seem to be unable to examine small details. They can do neither without distorting reality to fit their static mindset.

I used to be one of those people.  Then I realized I was delusional. 

A few coincidences in relatively short span are not significant to the entire workings of the universe. And so they are really not significant at all, unless you want them to be.

Sounds a lot like faith.

 

I'm sorry to hear about your brother.

I don't, however, see this as an analogous situation. If you had directly asked a higher power for guidance with regard to whether you should have gone or stayed, and then a minute later had opened a newspaper, for example, and one that was delivered to your house by accident that day, opened it directly to a story about a guy and his brother who were killed on a business trip, then this would be an analogous situation. 

If under those circumstances you didn't think that just maybe something a bit mysterious was going on, I would be surprised. I would say you were being irrational for dismissing something like that out of hand. 

Well, I've had some pretty unlikely coincidences occur.  And when I was a christian I would also ask for signs and guidance.  Sometimes I thought I received them, and sometimes not.  I would even tell myself that there was no way it was coincidence.

Even after leaving faith I've had things that seemed "mysterious" happen. But I had to use reason.

I didn't intend that story to be a perfect analogy. It was the best I had to get to a couple points.-

The main one being that the implications of such theory ultimately leads to such incredible stretches of the imagination, that it doesn't take long to see you will arrive at non-sense. 

Ask for a sign. 

This power must then have to center on you to alter such a huge multitude of small events to lead to the one to show you the way.  Perhaps only a schitzophrenic could fully grasp what it would have to entail.  Form what I've read they tend to trace things back in their head until something else can divert them. For instance they think of a shoe. Then it's made of leather, leather from a cow, cow from a farm.......and so on until re-directed.

But even the alteration of events fails miserably.

Eventually you must deduce that the whole history of the universe had to lead up to that sign, or that every single little thing past, present, and future has been mapped out and we are just going thru the motions and god knew you would ask for that sign when he created the universe and he hadn't forgot about it.  I think you get my drift. No need to dissect it anymore.

amazing coincidences do occur. The universe is filled with amazing things. Still no proof a higher power had a hand in any of it.

People seem to be under the impression that all atheists don't want there to be a god, or that we would be greatly disappointed if one showed up.  I personally would would be thrilled in hopes he would answer a whole lot of questions for us or give us some new super-powers and end all the misery in the world, etc. I just hope if there is one it ain't that sick bastard in the bible.

But we aint holdin' our breath.  That's what separates us.

 

I don't think it's necessary to hold that the whole history of the universe is necessary to explain a sign. For example, with regard to stumble across a pile of shells, all it required was that Allen agreed to go run with me. An omnipotent God, if such exists, could easily have just, for example, tweaked a couple molecules in his brain, if you want a physical explanation. Heck, an omnipotent God could have materialised rose petals.

 

When I was an atheist, rather militant actually, what I hated was religious dogmatism, and I just happened to not think a God existed. I don't think I would've been disappointed had God made an appearance. When I began to study philosophy I heard substantial formulation of the arguments folks likes Dawkins set up to be easily defeated, and found that they had some force, even if they were not solid proofs. I read Mackie, for example, fervently. I hoped to find complete refutation for all arguments for God, because at that time my hero was Chris Hitchens. I loved Hitchens long before he became associated with the New Atheism. My conclusion, after a fierce struggle to believe otherwise (because I thought it would make me no different from the idiots I'd been calling delusional for so long), was that there are reasons, or rather, I want to say, I came to the conclusion that it is not utterly unreasonable to suspect that there is an intelligence of some sort at work in creation. 

So I admitted that belief in a Creator God is reasonable given the experience of life. I did not admit that religious belief was reasonable nor did I begin to believe in God. I merely admitted it's not so ridiculous as the popular authors would have it. 

What's surprised me, and I mean really surprised me, shocked me, stupefied me, is that in the last few weeks on this forum I went from being completely agnostic to leaning toward the theist side. I just can't believe it, but I have to admit it. 

Why? For example, the insane evasion people have tried to make of the fine-tuning argument. From denying what physics and leading scientists tell us, to coming up with the most absurd analogies, to invoking the anthropic principle and clinging to it for dear life when it answers nothing, to saying that they will believe any theory (from an infinity of universe to the all possible worlds interpretations of quantum) before admitting the possibility of an intelligent mind. I've encountered such shocking closed-mindedness before, and it was something I condemned then, and still do.

I've mentioned in a few posts that I studied sociology in school, and my interest in the new atheism is partly from a view on it as a social phenomena. So many people who haven't read, say Kuhn, or Popper, or Lakotos, or Thaggard, or Smart, or Hartshorne, or Swinburne, or Mackie, or any positivist even, are convinced so strongly that they are vastly more intelligent than your average believer (not even saying lunatic fundamentalist). It's bewildering. William James would've called it a religion like any other, and it's a fundamentalist one at that. 

I'd like to know, whose reasoning do they rely on? For example, A_Nony_Mouse. He's read one book at most, I swear, on any topic. But he has such conviction and arrogance. I have to wonder if he thinks he would be able to stand his ground against a proper philosopher of religion. I'd bet he'd have his butt handed to him, and I'd bet he knows that's so. I wonder if he would have the arrogance to tell, for example, Shrodinger or Einstein that they're silly idiots for believing. I believe the dynamic of belief for people like that is fill with faith: they don't know the serious arguments from one side, nor do they know the responses to them from the other. They choose based on insufficient knowledge and no investigation, and just have faith that their side ultimately has the better argument. Currently, it so seems that the atheist side is the side of the smart folks and religion is the side of the midwestern dimwits. I do understand why people want to be on the winning side. There are social reasons and ego reasons. I wanted to be on Hitchens side, for example. I did NOT want to be on the side of the Westboro Baptists who would have me burn in hell. 

What I want to suggest is that belief in God is not what so many of the new atheists need to be worried about. It is not going away. It is not even so irrational as they think. What atheists, and believers in God as well, should be against is dogma, religions that claim to know what God wants, and who's burning in hell. As Hitchens always said, religion can make an otherwise sane man fly a plane into a building. I strongly feel that should be the focus if the goal is a more enlightened society. Belief in God is not going anywhere, and I don't think we should want it to. Humans will always, and should always, wonder and think about God. What we need is to stop letting men tell us they and they alone know the truth.


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tonyjeffers wrote: I don't

tonyjeffers wrote:
I don't think it's necessary to hold that the whole history of the universe is necessary to explain a sign. For example, with regard to stumble across a pile of shells, all it required was that Allen agreed to go run with me. An omnipotent God, if such exists, could easily have just, for example, tweaked a couple molecules in his brain, if you want a physical explanation. Heck, an omnipotent God could have materialised rose petals.

No, that would be taking Allen's free will away. Smiling

What's the point of trying to discover this god if he is doing his very best to hide? It is very clear should he exists, he doesn't want to be known.

It is so deeply annoying that there are those who say without a doubt he exists using holy books or experience. But on further investigation it is found to be hollow or deliberate lies. Certainly nothing that could be tested.

From my experience you would forever sit on the fence but nothing will clearly take you there. That's why they call it faith when cornered and not knowledge.

Remember imaginary things and non-existent things look alike.

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

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Seriously

 

 

how can we believe any of this actually happened? Balloons on the balcony, petals, the song, etc. Maybe they are a device of argument. 

These purported events fail to objectively prove the existence of a higher power existing outside space time. They are all very possible events in the context of human experience and they suggest a human predilection for reification. 

I wonder what other signs were not seen and were not interpreted as having relevance to the continuation of the love of James? If these things happened to me, I'd think them odd coincidences - nothing more. 

Personally, I imagine I fail to see inumerable 'signs' on a daily basis simply through lack of attention and a failure to make deliberate mental connection. 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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jeffreyalex wrote:Marty

jeffreyalex wrote:

Marty Hamrick wrote:

My mom, who was a good southern Baptist, but at the same time a closet Spiritualist, often spoke of such things in relation to her dreams and what she called "flashes"(images that "flashed" in her minds eye in the time just before dropping off to sleep). It was horseshit, as is this. It begs the question of why God would go to such elaborate means of getting a message across when he supposedly is omniscient and omnipotent? Kind of like when the bad guys on the old Batman TV show would capture the Dynamic Duo and then try to do them in in some elaborate way that they could easily escape from.Even as a kid I used to ask, "Why don't they just shoot them both in the head.?" But then a follow episode would've not been possible. Perhaps God should write for TV.

 

The simple answer to why God wouldn't descend from clouds and scream an answer at us might be that it would take away our free will—we would have little choice between belief and disbelief if we suddenly heard a booming voice surround us, etc. 

Also, the question of Why? isn't relevant, at all. If my mom came into my room and spilled a pot of borscht on me I could ask Why? and get no answer. Nonetheless, I'd be covered in borscht.

I fail to see how having images before sleep, in your own mind, is the same as objective signs you observe while wide awake. 

 

And Marty, what exactly is horseshit? I reported events that I know to be true and asked you what reaction you might have if you'd experienced them yourself. 

The horseshit is the interpretation, I have no doubt that you are being honest about the events you related. Who said anything about a booming voice?The free will argument falls apart with subjectivity. It seems to me that if an ominpotent and omniscient being wanted to impart a message, he would certainly be creative enough to come up with a more objective way of imparting that message. Even if he were to make a message in the clouds, it could still be argued that the experience was a hallucination or , even if such a vision were a shared event, it could still be argued as a strange anamoly. If it were a booming voice, people would still have the choice to believe it or not.

I have experienced such synchronicities and when I was younger, I might have concluded a paranormal source and have done so in the past. becoming educated on such things as Jung's synchronicities as one poster has mentioned, provided the necessary objectivity as did a similar experience with sleep paralysis.

"Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings."


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jeffreyalex wrote: One day

jeffreyalex wrote:

 

One day Jung went to visit Sigmund Freud. As they were talking Freud observed that Jung was visibly uncomfortable, when suddenly a glass cracked. Jung said he knew something like that was going to happen, but of course Freud ridiculed him for being silly. Jung responded that he knew it would happen again in just another minute. Freud continued to tell him that it was just a coincidence and he was being foolish when, after no more than a minute, another glass did, in fact, as Jung said, break. Freud dismissed it. 

In this case, Jung entertained the idea that something might be behind this, whereas Freud simply dismissed what didn't fit in with his already decided views. And I think Jung was right here.

 

 

 

Can you provide me with a link or possibly cite a source for this incident ? 

I know that I could probably use google, but I guess I am being lazy on my day off. 

I'd like to read more about it. 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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ex-minister wrote:

ex-minister wrote:

tonyjeffers wrote:
I don't think it's necessary to hold that the whole history of the universe is necessary to explain a sign. For example, with regard to stumble across a pile of shells, all it required was that Allen agreed to go run with me. An omnipotent God, if such exists, could easily have just, for example, tweaked a couple molecules in his brain, if you want a physical explanation. Heck, an omnipotent God could have materialised rose petals.

No, that would be taking Allen's free will away. Smiling

What's the point of trying to discover this god if he is doing his very best to hide? It is very clear should he exists, he doesn't want to be known.

It is so deeply annoying that there are those who say without a doubt he exists using holy books or experience. But on further investigation it is found to be hollow or deliberate lies. Certainly nothing that could be tested.

From my experience you would forever sit on the fence but nothing will clearly take you there. That's why they call it faith when cornered and not knowledge.

Remember imaginary things and non-existent things look alike.

Just to be clear to those of you that haven't followed this thread, that quote was Jeffrey, not me.  simple mistake of the quote function

 

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


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Atheistextremist said . . .


 
     Caution, let your yes be yes and your no be no Jeffrey

 

What is evidence Jeffrey wrote:
..What's surprised me, and I mean really surprised me, shocked me, stupefied me, is that in the last few weeks on this forum I went from being completely agnostic to leaning towards the theist side ..

 ...


Atheistextremist wrote:

 

 

 Seriously ..how can we believe any of this actually happened? Balloons on the balcony, petals, the song, etc. Maybe they are a device of argument. 

 

What is evidence Jeffrey wrote:
Jeffrey said,  "I  reported events that I know to be true"

 

  Oookaay .

 

 

 ___________

     James 4:17 (NKJV) Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does it not, to him it is sin.

 

 

 


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[Double post]

   [Double post]


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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

 

how can we believe any of this actually happened? Balloons on the balcony, petals, the song, etc. Maybe they are a device of argument. 

These purported events fail to objectively prove the existence of a higher power existing outside space time. They are all very possible events in the context of human experience and they suggest a human predilection for reification. 

I wonder what other signs were not seen and were not interpreted as having relevance to the continuation of the love of James? If these things happened to me, I'd think them odd coincidences - nothing more. 

Personally, I imagine I fail to see inumerable 'signs' on a daily basis simply through lack of attention and a failure to make deliberate mental connection. 

 

 

 

I don't expect you to believe any of it happened. When I think about it, I still go over every detail asking myself if it really happened. You're disbelief indicates that you'd admit the coincidences are rather uncanny, beyond something like simply running into a friend at an airport layover. The question is IF it had happened to you, would you easily brush it off?

I don't think they are all 'very possible'. They are physically possible, but highly unlikely. I challenge you to blindly choose a book off your shelves, ask "Should I go on this trip?" then open the book and plop down a finger. If your finger lands on "Go on that trip" more than half the time, then I'll say it's very possible. 

Further, there isn't any subjective interpretation that has to be read into it. It's plain English. And actually it is a similar case with the rose petals. On their own, we could read them to mean a few different things. But the commitment was made to use a particular booklet, in the above example. And again, thousands of petals is not a sign the way Allen seeing a train advertisement for Jameson whiskey would be a sign. Although there were those Jameson ads all over the trains at the time, and the boys full name was, in fact, Jameson, I held that that was too easy and trivial to be a sign, alone. Thousands of petals strangely covering the ocean and the beach shore isn't a tiny little thing one would only notice if one was looking very hard. 

Does it objectively and definitively prove something? Maybe not. How likely is it that this was just a series of coincidences? The chances are probably very small. 


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harleysportster

harleysportster wrote:

jeffreyalex wrote:

 

One day Jung went to visit Sigmund Freud. As they were talking Freud observed that Jung was visibly uncomfortable, when suddenly a glass cracked. Jung said he knew something like that was going to happen, but of course Freud ridiculed him for being silly. Jung responded that he knew it would happen again in just another minute. Freud continued to tell him that it was just a coincidence and he was being foolish when, after no more than a minute, another glass did, in fact, as Jung said, break. Freud dismissed it. 

In this case, Jung entertained the idea that something might be behind this, whereas Freud simply dismissed what didn't fit in with his already decided views. And I think Jung was right here.

 

 

 

Can you provide me with a link or possibly cite a source for this incident ? 

I know that I could probably use google, but I guess I am being lazy on my day off. 

I'd like to read more about it. 

 

The story was related to me by a Freudian who taught one of my courses, so that's my source. But here's a link to someone else who brings up the story and has a citation there in the first post: http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=394505


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ex-minister wrote:

ex-minister wrote:

tonyjeffers wrote:
I don't think it's necessary to hold that the whole history of the universe is necessary to explain a sign. For example, with regard to stumble across a pile of shells, all it required was that Allen agreed to go run with me. An omnipotent God, if such exists, could easily have just, for example, tweaked a couple molecules in his brain, if you want a physical explanation. Heck, an omnipotent God could have materialised rose petals.

No, that would be taking Allen's free will away. Smiling

What's the point of trying to discover this god if he is doing his very best to hide? It is very clear should he exists, he doesn't want to be known.

It is so deeply annoying that there are those who say without a doubt he exists using holy books or experience. But on further investigation it is found to be hollow or deliberate lies. Certainly nothing that could be tested.

From my experience you would forever sit on the fence but nothing will clearly take you there. That's why they call it faith when cornered and not knowledge.

Remember imaginary things and non-existent things look alike.

Imaginary and non-existent things don't answer questions. 


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Quote:
I don't expect you to believe any of it happened. When I think about it, I still go over every detail asking myself if it really happened.

 

   Reply in Image Enclosed

 

   Image says  Money.

 

  By the by the subjectline was directed at Brian37, it was. I might have  self-edited  the remark of the earlier subjectline  due to language use. That is all (not the metaphor or veiled message insistence you might have originally have come to expect).       > Evidence  has yet to be touched upon.


  In other part of the forum Jeffrey comment:

 

Jeffrey wrote:
Thinking about it in a preliminary noob-y kind of way, it seems safe to say that there was a point in time when there was material in the universe but none of it had any thoughts, it was just stuff. At some point, by some method, matter was able to combine in some assemblage which began to exhibit behavior, and then natural selection picked up from there and did it's thing. But at what point did matter suddenly begin to experience itself and its surroundings? How is that even possible? Those are good questions.  Jeffrey continued, 'Given that you are an atheist, and you believe in evolution, you must hold that you are here, existing entirely by accident as the result of random chance'.   

 

...

 

 


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jeffreyalex wrote:But just

jeffreyalex wrote:
But just because you ask a question and don't receive any answer doesn't mean that no person ever receives answers, does it? No, it doesn't.

Not standing by itself, but in the context of religion, especially the biggest religions who claim all knowing, all loving gods, the answer is yes. If I don't receive an answer, then there are only 3 possibilities.
1: god is a prick
2: there is no god
3: god is oblivious to our existence.

In any case, clearly the theists are either wrong, or actually lying.

Quote:
And just because something wasn't recorded doesn't mean it didn't happen, does it? No, it doesn't.

Actually you're just wrong this time. For thousands of years there have been millions of claims of miracles, yet absolutely none of them have been substantiated.

We've well passed the point of being able to claim that just because none of them have been proven to happen, doesn't mean none of them did. Fact is none of them did. Prove me wrong.

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jeffreyalex wrote: I don't

jeffreyalex wrote:

 

I don't expect you to believe any of it happened. When I think about it, I still go over every detail asking myself if it really happened. You're disbelief indicates that you'd admit the coincidences are rather uncanny, beyond something like simply running into a friend at an airport layover. The question is IF it had happened to you, would you easily brush it off?

 

A series of events. Would I brush them off ? 

Well, let's bring up San Francisco again. (Not the airport, but another event in my life). True story and not made up. 

I was looking for a spare part on an old Shovelhead Harley that I used to ride. There was an older biker that I knew would probably have the part and put it on for a cheap price ( cheap price meaning a night of partying and riding). 

The morning that I took it over to his garage, the old Scott McKenzie tune " If your going to San Francisco" was playing on the radio. I remarked that I always liked that song. He told me he had been out there once, back during the days of Haight Asbury and had met Janis Joplin, Grace Slick and a few others. He even had the photos to prove it.  He talked about meeting Sonny Barger of the Hells Angels and a few other cool stories. 

Three or four days later, I was picking up a collection of Harlan Ellison short stories ( one of my favorite writers) and the clerk mentioned being a Harlan fan as well. He mentioned that he met him at a book signing in San Francisco, back in the 1960's.  We talked literature for a little while and he mentioned that he met writer Jan Kerouac out there ( daughter of the famous Jack Kerouac, whom many people did not know about for a number of years). He had one of her autographed books. 

About a month went by and I was getting a hair cut. (Which does not usually happen but every couple of years for me). Well, the girl cutting my hair and I hit it off for some odd reason. She didn't ride motorcycles, read the same kind of books as me, and on the surface, it appeared that we had nothing in common. 

At some point in the conversation she asked me where I was from. I told her New Jersey. I asked her where she was from. You probably have already guessed. San Francisco. 

We ended up going out on a couple of dates, then regularly seeing each other and are now living together. We've been together for quite some time. 

So, what does all of this mean when you tie it together ? Some divine providence kept whispering San Francisco to me so that I would KNOW that my now significant other was going to be from San Francisco  ? 

BTW. I haven't had a chance to check out that link yet. I will do so later today, read and research it and get back to you with what I find. 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Vastet wrote:jeffreyalex

Vastet wrote:
jeffreyalex wrote:
But just because you ask a question and don't receive any answer doesn't mean that no person ever receives answers, does it? No, it doesn't.
Not standing by itself, but in the context of religion, especially the biggest religions who claim all knowing, all loving gods, the answer is yes. If I don't receive an answer, then there are only 3 possibilities. 1: god is a prick 2: there is no god 3: god is oblivious to our existence. In any case, clearly the theists are either wrong, or actually lying.
Quote:
And just because something wasn't recorded doesn't mean it didn't happen, does it? No, it doesn't.
Actually you're just wrong this time. For thousands of years there have been millions of claims of miracles, yet absolutely none of them have been substantiated. We've well passed the point of being able to claim that just because none of them have been proven to happen, doesn't mean none of them did. Fact is none of them did. Prove me wrong.

 

That's not an argument: It didn't happen, prove me wrong? Prove yourself right. There are no photos or videos of Washington crossing the Delaware yet it very well may have happened. 

Regarding your three possibilities, that's a false trichotomy. A God may have perfectly good reason not to make himself known to any given person, that we simply don't know. For example, many people here have made it clear that no matter what the odds, a billion to one even, they would not entertain the idea that a coincidence is meaningful, but would dismiss it no matter what. That might be an example of a reason God wouldn't respond to a question in a perfectly obvious manner. If one asks God A, receives an answer B, and then chooses to continue in complete disbelief, it seems he would have distanced himself even further from God. A God could very well not answer knowing it would result in nothing. 

 


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jeffreyalex

jeffreyalex wrote:

ex-minister wrote:

jeffreyalex wrote:
I don't think it's necessary to hold that the whole history of the universe is necessary to explain a sign. For example, with regard to stumble across a pile of shells, all it required was that Allen agreed to go run with me. An omnipotent God, if such exists, could easily have just, for example, tweaked a couple molecules in his brain, if you want a physical explanation. Heck, an omnipotent God could have materialised rose petals.

No, that would be taking Allen's free will away. Smiling

What's the point of trying to discover this god if he is doing his very best to hide? It is very clear should he exists, he doesn't want to be known.

It is so deeply annoying that there are those who say without a doubt he exists using holy books or experience. But on further investigation it is found to be hollow or deliberate lies. Certainly nothing that could be tested.

From my experience you would forever sit on the fence but nothing will clearly take you there. That's why they call it faith when cornered and not knowledge.

Remember imaginary things and non-existent things look alike.

Imaginary and non-existent things don't answer questions. 

Ok, but what of my question? What's the point trying to find a god who clearly is trying to hide?

Also, could someone have received lots of roses and angrily thrown them away? A truck carrying roses lost them? Could children have been playing and organized shells? If these were signs could they have been meant for someone else. And then why wait two weeks to add another sign? A song. Why put together only a string of coincidences? Ones that could be missed or dismissed. I don't find the signs compelling.

And why with all the pain and suffering in the world, this god cares about two people remaining friends? Wouldn't stopping war and child rape not be important?

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

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harleysportster

harleysportster wrote:

jeffreyalex wrote:

 

I don't expect you to believe any of it happened. When I think about it, I still go over every detail asking myself if it really happened. You're disbelief indicates that you'd admit the coincidences are rather uncanny, beyond something like simply running into a friend at an airport layover. The question is IF it had happened to you, would you easily brush it off?

 

A series of events. Would I brush them off ? 

Well, let's bring up San Francisco again. (Not the airport, but another event in my life). True story and not made up. 

I was looking for a spare part on an old Shovelhead Harley that I used to ride. There was an older biker that I knew would probably have the part and put it on for a cheap price ( cheap price meaning a night of partying and riding). 

The morning that I took it over to his garage, the old Scott McKenzie tune " If your going to San Francisco" was playing on the radio. I remarked that I always liked that song. He told me he had been out there once, back during the days of Haight Asbury and had met Janis Joplin, Grace Slick and a few others. He even had the photos to prove it.  He talked about meeting Sonny Barger of the Hells Angels and a few other cool stories. 

Three or four days later, I was picking up a collection of Harlan Ellison short stories ( one of my favorite writers) and the clerk mentioned being a Harlan fan as well. He mentioned that he met him at a book signing in San Francisco, back in the 1960's.  We talked literature for a little while and he mentioned that he met writer Jan Kerouac out there ( daughter of the famous Jack Kerouac, whom many people did not know about for a number of years). He had one of her autographed books. 

About a month went by and I was getting a hair cut. (Which does not usually happen but every couple of years for me). Well, the girl cutting my hair and I hit it off for some odd reason. She didn't ride motorcycles, read the same kind of books as me, and on the surface, it appeared that we had nothing in common. 

At some point in the conversation she asked me where I was from. I told her New Jersey. I asked her where she was from. You probably have already guessed. San Francisco. 

We ended up going out on a couple of dates, then regularly seeing each other and are now living together. We've been together for quite some time. 

So, what does all of this mean when you tie it together ? Some divine providence kept whispering San Francisco to me so that I would KNOW that my now significant other was going to be from San Francisco  ? 

BTW. I haven't had a chance to check out that link yet. I will do so later today, read and research it and get back to you with what I find. 

 

I don't know what to make of that experience. There's a much more loose connection there, and you hadn't asked a higher power for any guidance, nor did you receive an unequivocal message such as "TAKE THE TRIP", but still. I don't see that you should write the experience off. I think the proper response would be to say, "interesting, I wonder...". I don't think I would personally make anything of it either, Harley. I experience loose synchronicities but I don't tend to go analyzing too much. I will say that when I've taken a hint and decided to just listen to what the world, whether it's God or just coincidence, was trying to tell me, I've been glad I did. But I didn't use that as an example because those occasions have been iffy. This particular incident which I related in the OP was one that particularly stood out for me as quite bizarre and very clearly meaningful (even if it was coincidental). 

 

Definitely get back to me with anything interesting you learn about that anecdote. At any rate, I'd be interested to know, if you find it to be a true account of that one conversation, would you think there's something to it, or would you dismiss it as nothing but coincidence?


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I remember right after my

I remember right after my first wife and I split and she left, I was packing things away and getting ready to move, when a Bible fell on the floor and opened right to a scripture in Proverbs. I don't remember what verse it was exactly, but it said something to the effect of "Better to live on the roof of a burning house than to be inside with a quarrellsome woman." I knew I liked Proverbs for a reason.

"Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings."


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jeffreyalex wrote:That's not

jeffreyalex wrote:
That's not an argument

It wasn't intended to be. It was a statement of fact.

Quote:
t didn't happen, prove me wrong? Prove yourself right.

Onus is on you, the one claiming miracles occur. Not me, the one denying your claim with 50,000 years of history to back me up.

Quote:
There are no photos or videos of Washington crossing the Delaware yet it very well may have happened.

That is a one time incident in history without anything to suggest it couldn't happen.
Whereas miracles have supposedly been happening non-stop for thousands of years, and everything we KNOW suggests they can't and don't happen.
Your comparison isn't even remotely valid.

Quote:
Regarding your three possibilities, that's a false trichotomy.

Nope. Your 'example' equals option 1: god is a dick.

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Vastet wrote:jeffreyalex

Vastet wrote:
jeffreyalex wrote:
That's not an argument
It wasn't intended to be. It was a statement of fact.
Quote:
t didn't happen, prove me wrong? Prove yourself right.
Onus is on you, the one claiming miracles occur. Not me, the one denying your claim with 50,000 years of history to back me up.
Quote:
There are no photos or videos of Washington crossing the Delaware yet it very well may have happened.
That is a one time incident in history without anything to suggest it couldn't happen. Whereas miracles have supposedly been happening non-stop for thousands of years, and everything we KNOW suggests they can't and don't happen. Your comparison isn't even remotely valid.
Quote:
Regarding your three possibilities, that's a false trichotomy.
Nope. Your 'example' equals option 1: god is a dick.

 

I don't recall saying that miracles occur. I recall saying X, Y, and Z happened. I don't recall saying my friend rose from the dead or that he parted the earth and teleported to Texas.

And if miracles have been happening for thousands of years it seems thousands of years of history aren't on your side, not that I believe that's the case. If I was gonna believe in a miracle I'd better have seen it with my own eyes or at least be presented with a very strong case for it. That's not the topic of this thread. 

 

My example doesn't equal option 1. If you're the child of an alcoholic, you don't clean up after them when they pass out in their own vomit, as someone recently mentioned on the forum. There's a moral reason for that, though it would be nice to clean up and it is what they would want you to do. It doesn't mean you're a dick. And whether my example is great or not, that doesn't change the fact that God may well not respond clearly for reasons you just don't know. 

 

 


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jeffreyalex wrote:And

jeffreyalex wrote:
And whether my example is great or not, that doesn't change the fact that God may well not respond clearly for reasons you just don't know. 

 

 

                         You are sooo not a deist.   God "responding" ?      

 

      

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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

jeffreyalex wrote:
And whether my example is great or not, that doesn't change the fact that God may well not respond clearly for reasons you just don't know. 

 

 

                         You are sooo not a deist.   God "responding" ?      

 

      

 

As I've mentioned in other posts, over the last several weeks, I've begun to lean toward the theist side. Even so, there is such a thing as taking a position just for the sake of discussion. There's an ironic term for it: 'Playing the Devil's advocate'.


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Hi Jeff

jeffreyalex wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

 

how can we believe any of this actually happened? Balloons on the balcony, petals, the song, etc. Maybe they are a device of argument. 

These purported events fail to objectively prove the existence of a higher power existing outside space time. They are all very possible events in the context of human experience and they suggest a human predilection for reification. 

I wonder what other signs were not seen and were not interpreted as having relevance to the continuation of the love of James? If these things happened to me, I'd think them odd coincidences - nothing more. 

Personally, I imagine I fail to see inumerable 'signs' on a daily basis simply through lack of attention and a failure to make deliberate mental connection. 

 

 

 

I don't expect you to believe any of it happened. When I think about it, I still go over every detail asking myself if it really happened. You're disbelief indicates that you'd admit the coincidences are rather uncanny, beyond something like simply running into a friend at an airport layover. The question is IF it had happened to you, would you easily brush it off?

I don't think they are all 'very possible'. They are physically possible, but highly unlikely. I challenge you to blindly choose a book off your shelves, ask "Should I go on this trip?" then open the book and plop down a finger. If your finger lands on "Go on that trip" more than half the time, then I'll say it's very possible. 

Further, there isn't any subjective interpretation that has to be read into it. It's plain English. And actually it is a similar case with the rose petals. On their own, we could read them to mean a few different things. But the commitment was made to use a particular booklet, in the above example. And again, thousands of petals is not a sign the way Allen seeing a train advertisement for Jameson whiskey would be a sign. Although there were those Jameson ads all over the trains at the time, and the boys full name was, in fact, Jameson, I held that that was too easy and trivial to be a sign, alone. Thousands of petals strangely covering the ocean and the beach shore isn't a tiny little thing one would only notice if one was looking very hard. 

Does it objectively and definitively prove something? Maybe not. How likely is it that this was just a series of coincidences? The chances are probably very small. 

 

Just what do these coincidental events prove, in your opinion?

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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How could you have

Marty Hamrick wrote:

I remember right after my first wife and I split and she left, I was packing things away and getting ready to move, when a Bible fell on the floor and opened right to a scripture in Proverbs. I don't remember what verse it was exactly, but it said something to the effect of "Better to live on the roof of a burning house than to be inside with a quarrellsome woman." I knew I liked Proverbs for a reason.

 

failed to heed the words of the lord, Marty. Behold, he stood at the thorn-encrusted door of your heart and knocked....

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Atheistextremist wrote:Marty

Atheistextremist wrote:

Marty Hamrick wrote:

I remember right after my first wife and I split and she left, I was packing things away and getting ready to move, when a Bible fell on the floor and opened right to a scripture in Proverbs. I don't remember what verse it was exactly, but it said something to the effect of "Better to live on the roof of a burning house than to be inside with a quarrellsome woman." I knew I liked Proverbs for a reason.

 

failed to heed the words of the lord, Marty. Behold, he stood at the thorn-encrusted door of your heart and knocked....

Not so sure if I failed completely. She left and didn't come back and that was fine with me! Thank God and Southwest Airlines she's gone!

"Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings."


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jeffreyalex wrote:I don't

jeffreyalex wrote:
I don't recall saying that miracles occur. I recall saying X, Y, and Z happened.

Implying miracles. Don't back-step too quickly, there's a cliff behind you.

Quote:
And if miracles have been happening for thousands of years it seems thousands of years of history aren't on your side,

Except it is, because none of them have been proven or substantiated in any way.

Quote:
My example doesn't equal option 1.

Yes, it does. And as noones parents are gods, your second example also fails.

If there's a god, and it demands anything at all, but doesn't show itself, then it is a dick. Period.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.