truth is truth

JesusLovesYou
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truth is truth

 Since the things of God are spiritually discerned (1 corinthians 2:14) a proper understanding of scripture is often more the result of an individuals spiritual condition than his or her intellectual ability.  Often the truth of Scripture will appear to be "folly" to those who have rejected the claims of Jesus. 

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


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Yeah

 

 

This argument is going to go down ever so well...

 

 

1 Corinthians 2:14 New International Version (NIV)

"The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit."

 

 

In my opinion this verse commits the fallacy of the thought terminating cliche. 

 

"Thought-terminating cliché. The most far-reaching and complex of human problems are compressed into brief, highly reductive, definitive-sounding phrases, easily memorized and easily expressed. These become the start and finish of any...analysis." 

(Lifton)

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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I'm actually more

I'm actually more "spiritual" since I found out that the Bible is a non sense collection of ancient obscure books.

About the quote itself: Everyone has "the Spirit".

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"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

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JesusLovesYou wrote: Since

JesusLovesYou wrote:

 Since the things of God are spiritually discerned (1 corinthians 2:14) a proper understanding of scripture is often more the result of an individuals spiritual condition than his or her intellectual ability.  Often the truth of Scripture will appear to be "folly" to those who have rejected the claims of Jesus. 

But you've rejected the claims of Jesus as well.

You've rejected living by the rules of the Sermon on the Mount.

You don't believe anything you ask God the Father for in Jesus name you will receive. Otherwise you could just pray that we'd all become believers instead of trying to convince us.

You don't believe you can move mountains. All kinds of things you've rejected. You only believe what is convenient to believe.

 

Your religion is just a placebo that makes you feel better. Nothing more. Right?

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


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JesusLovesYou wrote: Since

JesusLovesYou wrote:

 Since the things of God are spiritually discerned (1 corinthians 2:14) a proper understanding of scripture is often more the result of an individuals spiritual condition than his or her intellectual ability.  Often the truth of Scripture will appear to be "folly" to those who have rejected the claims of Jesus. 

Do you really think you are the first Christian to say "If I quote this passage, surely it will work". If a Muslim quotes the Koran does that by itself give you good enough reason to convert to Islam?

 

What you are doing is called circular reasoning and it does not impress us at all, not when you do it, or when Jews do it, or when Muslims do it.

I don't know what you are thinking by coming here, but to be warned, you are not our first dance and this really is a 101 mistake and totally amateur.

All this proves is that you have the ability to regurgitate words from a book.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Start expecting like toads . . . .

  JesusLovesYou,  Anytime Extreme's opening remarks are "(quote) This argument is going to go down ever so well..." you are screwed (pardon my French).

 

  I know it was a projection and I have no way of knowing for sure but didnt you feel Brian37's heart sunk the moment he began to respond.

  I am sure your wife thinks you are a sweet. What do you want to do ? The reason I ask, though I vowed I'd never interact with you directly but it wasnt an actual vow so I will risk it, everyone seems to have a role to play. I am curious about what yours might, that is MIGHT  be ? Curious if I could help you sort it out.

 


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[Double post]

   [Double post]


ex-minister
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JesusLovesYou wrote: Since

JesusLovesYou wrote:

 Since the things of God are spiritually discerned (1 corinthians 2:14) a proper understanding of scripture is often more the result of an individuals spiritual condition than his or her intellectual ability.  Often the truth of Scripture will appear to be "folly" to those who have rejected the claims of Jesus. 

So this means even you cannot be sure you understand scripture. You think you do but who hasn't? The pharisees and saducees and every other christian denomination you don't agree with.

God loves us so much and so wants everyone to be saved and yet he hides not only himself from us, but also the meaning of his "words". It must suck for you to know this. Even you cannot really know he accepts you and has given you his holy spirit until it is too late.

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


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danatemporary wrote: 

danatemporary wrote:

  JesusLovesYou,  Anytime Extreme's opening remarks are "(quote) This argument is going to go down ever so well..." you are screwed (pardon my French).

 

  I know it was a projection and I have no way of knowing for sure but didnt you feel Brian37's heart sunk the moment he began to respond.

  I am sure your wife thinks you are a sweet. What do you want to do ? The reason I ask, though I vowed I'd never interact with you directly but it wasnt an actual vow so I will risk it, everyone seems to have a role to play. I am curious about what yours might, that is MIGHT  be ? Curious if I could help you sort it out.

 

 

Not sure what you meant by my heart sinking. It was more like what happens to me when my Redskins lose week after week. You can hope for something new, like a win, just like you can hope some Christian can bring you a new chewtoy to play with, but what I was really thinking when I read that post is aptly reflected in my avatar.

When I read clearly someone out of their league it makes me long for the likes of Caposkia. Damn it would be like being a prize fighter and when you jump into the ring it ends up being a midget. I never found Caposkias arguments valid, but compared to this poster, he is certainly more of a chess player.

In all fairness to the OP though, I am just suggesting he do some reading both for his arguments, and reading ours so he can do a better job than bumper sticker quotes for his first attempts.

Its not fun for me when someone brings a knife to a gunfight and it makes them feel needlessly stupid when we clock them. I think most theists are capable of intellect, but far to many in our species, throughout history regardless of label unfortunately go with "what feels good" rather than making a real attempt to research to attempt to demonstrate their position.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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Bumper Sticker . . .

 Brian37

    Bumper sticker (ha ha ha)     Yeah not so fun in the hot seat for the OP. Tutorial an idea . .

 


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can't seem to post on work computer...sry

danatemporary wrote:

  JesusLovesYou,  Anytime Extreme's opening remarks are "(quote) This argument is going to go down ever so well..." you are screwed (pardon my French).

 

  I know it was a projection and I have no way of knowing for sure but didnt you feel Brian37's heart sunk the moment he began to respond.

  I am sure your wife thinks you are a sweet. What do you want to do ? The reason I ask, though I vowed I'd never interact with you directly but it wasnt an actual vow so I will risk it, everyone seems to have a role to play. I am curious about what yours might, that is MIGHT  be ? Curious if I could help you sort it out.

 

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


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JesusLoveYou no kidding there is a place for everyone

  JLY  no kidding there is a place for everyone:

    Weird things have been going on since like the end of May, as early as April  Moderators can tell you. Hey JesusLovesYou,  My idea is simple. I notice almost weekly someone is needed for Bible verses.  Natural fit. Not one of the fates so cannot make it happen but an idea whose time has come.  Today's example was  Rev. 2-4 the part with the angels before God. DIRECT references needed. Not a lot of takers. Flipping through the passages brought up by a Gnostic Xian from another board. I was reminded of all the Symbolic layers to those areas of the book. Scripture reference a  job with your name written all over it  Smiling 


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i really don't understand you

danatemporary wrote:

  JLY  no kidding there is a place for everyone:

    Weird things have been going on since like the end of May, as early as April  Moderators can tell you. Hey JesusLovesYou,  My idea is simple. I notice almost weekly someone is needed for Bible verses.  Natural fit. Not one of the fates so cannot make it happen but an idea whose time has come.  Today's example was  Rev. 2-4 the part with the angels before God. DIRECT references needed. Not a lot of takers. Flipping through the passages brought up by a Gnostic Xian from another board. I was reminded of all the Symbolic layers to those areas of the book. Scripture reference a  job with your name written all over it  Smiling 

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


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JLY

There's no point in arguing against this really. I used to re-assure myself the same way. The bible is full of such verses to keep it's followers deluded to make sure they don't embrace any doubt.

When one reaches this point there is no presentation of logic, reason, or even physical evidence that can overcome this static mindset.  Put simply- you're hooked.

Recovery can only start within.  It really takes courage to face yourself.  Those doubts you have buried and done your best to pretend never popped in your head or even blamed on some devil have to be recognized and confronted.

Explore them. If they are unfounded then it should be no problem to counter them with simple reason. If it requires faith then you should be smart enough to see that you going in a circle.   

Tell us, what doubts have you had?  And what verses in scripture did you use to counter them?

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


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For all who find it more convenient to bother you w/ questions:

 What was I saying, IMHO?My opinion and that of every fair minded person, no one else has your experience or your knowledge. So, Where could you best fit in the board.Isn't there  a  place for everyone on the boards? For all those people who find it more convenient to bother you with their question. I assumed when you singled out my comments out of all the others you might be needing some direction or help.Wrong assumption?. Scripture knowledge not needed on the board. Huh?It is known as a concern for you, general concern. Perhaps because your first few threads were a bit of a disaster. Re-read all of Brian37's remarks!  It think it prompted me to want to reach out to you; in search of seeking to help you out.  Jimenezj's approach and experience were vastly different to your own. Look back at his early introduction to the board, this along with all my suggests were in hopes of helping you.  You might use some help, my idea, find a place for you.                  

          Please force yourself to respond to at least four people. I noticed five othertheists doing that. Always impressed with them taking on 4-5 posts at a time. People appreciate the habit Smiling

 

 

 


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JesusLovesYou wrote: Since

JesusLovesYou wrote:

 Since the things of God are spiritually discerned (1 corinthians 2:14) a proper understanding of scripture is often more the result of an individuals spiritual condition than his or her intellectual ability.  Often the truth of Scripture will appear to be "folly" to those who have rejected the claims of Jesus. 

What exactly is a "PROPER" understanding of Scripture.

There are hundreds of Christian sects that all believe the other sect is going to hell and they have the "PROPER" version of scripture. How do you explain that ? 

 

An individual's spiritual condition rather than intellect ? 

Please enlighten me, what constitutes a spiritual condition and why is it required that a person have a lack of intellect to have one ? 

So god wants dumb people that blindly follow him and wishes for us not to have intellect ? 

Must be the reason why the church tried to keep us in the dark ages for so long. 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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JesusLovesYou wrote: Since

JesusLovesYou wrote:

 Since the things of God are spiritually discerned (1 corinthians 2:14) a proper understanding of scripture is often more the result of an individuals spiritual condition than his or her intellectual ability.  Often the truth of Scripture will appear to be "folly" to those who have rejected the claims of Jesus. 

 

If you are so interested in the claims of Jesus (who at most claimed to be the Messiah) and replace them with the claims of Paul (who claimed that Jesus was God)? 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


JesusLovesYou
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harleysportster

harleysportster wrote:

JesusLovesYou wrote:

 Since the things of God are spiritually discerned (1 corinthians 2:14) a proper understanding of scripture is often more the result of an individuals spiritual condition than his or her intellectual ability.  Often the truth of Scripture will appear to be "folly" to those who have rejected the claims of Jesus. 

What exactly is a "PROPER" understanding of Scripture.

There are hundreds of Christian sects that all believe the other sect is going to hell and they have the "PROPER" version of scripture. How do you explain that ? 

 

An individual's spiritual condition rather than intellect ? 

Please enlighten me, what constitutes a spiritual condition and why is it required that a person have a lack of intellect to have one ? 

So god wants dumb people that blindly follow him and wishes for us not to have intellect ? 

Must be the reason why the church tried to keep us in the dark ages for so long. 

 

I said more of a result of, not lack of, not rather than.

There have been "sects" since the church began (1 Corinthians 1) .

The majority of these "sects" have the basic mainline doctrine in common.  That is the salvation doctrine, the doctrine of the trinity.  There are things referred to as 1st line, 2nd line, and 3rd line doctrine (had this discussion with a chaplain).  The most disagreement comes from 2nd and 3rd line doctrine, which are NOT heaven or hell issues.

Yes you do have your denominations, such as the catholics, who, instead of directly following the Bible, the follow the Catechism (i grew up catholic), and other such "religions" like Jehova's Witness or Mormonism, who claim to have gotten their revelation from a later spiritual authority than what we already have.  So I say again, the majority of disagreement, save a select few denominations and religions are not heaven or hell issues.  My pastor, James MacDonald, did two years in a row, this forum called The Elephant Room, the title referring to the common saying "There is an elephant in the room".  These forums brought various, well known pastors from around the nation such as Mark Driscoll, T.D. Jakes, Steven Furtick, James MacDonald (of course), Scott Graham, among others, to come together and discuss the various things that they differed on to 1) discover how and why and 2) to find common ground to agree upon as Christians.

These "sects" that you are referring to, that say the other sect is going to hell is what we call fundamentalist churches.  I attended one of those for 8 years. The United Pentecostal Church.  I know all about fundamentalism.  They are the people that shunned me and disowned me bcuz the woman I married "does not believe like us".  My wife brought me out of fundamentalism, and showed me what it truly means to be a Bible believing Christian.  Yes i used to believe like you do, that every denomination thinks they are right and everyone else is going to hell, but after coming OUT of fundamentalism, and stepping into the "regular" christian world, i can say thats not so. 

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


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So you thought you were

So you thought you were right before and now you think you were wrong and now you think you are right. The holy spirit and the bible are quite confusing. Wonder what you will think in a few more years.
I am glad you are moving away from fundamentalism. That is where I came from. They are ruining this country and the world.

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


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JesusLovesYou

JesusLovesYou wrote:

harleysportster wrote:

JesusLovesYou wrote:

 Since the things of God are spiritually discerned (1 corinthians 2:14) a proper understanding of scripture is often more the result of an individuals spiritual condition than his or her intellectual ability.  Often the truth of Scripture will appear to be "folly" to those who have rejected the claims of Jesus. 

What exactly is a "PROPER" understanding of Scripture.

There are hundreds of Christian sects that all believe the other sect is going to hell and they have the "PROPER" version of scripture. How do you explain that ? 

 

An individual's spiritual condition rather than intellect ? 

Please enlighten me, what constitutes a spiritual condition and why is it required that a person have a lack of intellect to have one ? 

So god wants dumb people that blindly follow him and wishes for us not to have intellect ? 

Must be the reason why the church tried to keep us in the dark ages for so long. 

 

I said more of a result of, not lack of, not rather than.

There have been "sects" since the church began (1 Corinthians 1) .

The majority of these "sects" have the basic mainline doctrine in common.  That is the salvation doctrine, the doctrine of the trinity.  There are things referred to as 1st line, 2nd line, and 3rd line doctrine (had this discussion with a chaplain).  The most disagreement comes from 2nd and 3rd line doctrine, which are NOT heaven or hell issues.

Yes you do have your denominations, such as the catholics, who, instead of directly following the Bible, the follow the Catechism (i grew up catholic), and other such "religions" like Jehova's Witness or Mormonism, who claim to have gotten their revelation from a later spiritual authority than what we already have.  So I say again, the majority of disagreement, save a select few denominations and religions are not heaven or hell issues.  My pastor, James MacDonald, did two years in a row, this forum called The Elephant Room, the title referring to the common saying "There is an elephant in the room".  These forums brought various, well known pastors from around the nation such as Mark Driscoll, T.D. Jakes, Steven Furtick, James MacDonald (of course), Scott Graham, among others, to come together and discuss the various things that they differed on to 1) discover how and why and 2) to find common ground to agree upon as Christians.

These "sects" that you are referring to, that say the other sect is going to hell is what we call fundamentalist churches.  I attended one of those for 8 years. The United Pentecostal Church.  I know all about fundamentalism.  They are the people that shunned me and disowned me bcuz the woman I married "does not believe like us".  My wife brought me out of fundamentalism, and showed me what it truly means to be a Bible believing Christian.  Yes i used to believe like you do, that every denomination thinks they are right and everyone else is going to hell, but after coming OUT of fundamentalism, and stepping into the "regular" christian world, i can say thats not so. 

You do realize that the Bible that you are using was (for the most part) put together by a bunch of Catholics, right?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Who is this Jesus fellow everyone harps on about ?!?

jcgadfly wrote:

Thatguy wrote:
These "sects" that you are referring to, that say the other sect is going to hell is what we call fundamentalist churches.  I attended one of those for 8 years. The United Pentecostal Church.  I know all about fundamentalism.  They are the people that shunned me and disowned me bcuz the woman I married "does not believe like us".  My wife brought me out of fundamentalism, and showed me what it truly means to be a Bible believing Christian.  Yes i used to believe like you do, that every denomination thinks they are right and everyone else is going to hell, but after coming OUT of fundamentalism, and stepping into the "regular" christian world, i can say thats not so. 

You do realize that the Bible that you are using was (for the most part) put together by a bunch of Catholics, right?

  You arent about to ask him to: 'Define what you mean by Bible believing christian -- specifying in historical pan¬denominational terms ?'"

 :¬

 


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jcgadfly wrote:JesusLovesYou

jcgadfly wrote:

JesusLovesYou wrote:

harleysportster wrote:

JesusLovesYou wrote:

 Since the things of God are spiritually discerned (1 corinthians 2:14) a proper understanding of scripture is often more the result of an individuals spiritual condition than his or her intellectual ability.  Often the truth of Scripture will appear to be "folly" to those who have rejected the claims of Jesus. 

What exactly is a "PROPER" understanding of Scripture.

There are hundreds of Christian sects that all believe the other sect is going to hell and they have the "PROPER" version of scripture. How do you explain that ? 

 

An individual's spiritual condition rather than intellect ? 

Please enlighten me, what constitutes a spiritual condition and why is it required that a person have a lack of intellect to have one ? 

So god wants dumb people that blindly follow him and wishes for us not to have intellect ? 

Must be the reason why the church tried to keep us in the dark ages for so long. 

 

I said more of a result of, not lack of, not rather than.

There have been "sects" since the church began (1 Corinthians 1) .

The majority of these "sects" have the basic mainline doctrine in common.  That is the salvation doctrine, the doctrine of the trinity.  There are things referred to as 1st line, 2nd line, and 3rd line doctrine (had this discussion with a chaplain).  The most disagreement comes from 2nd and 3rd line doctrine, which are NOT heaven or hell issues.

Yes you do have your denominations, such as the catholics, who, instead of directly following the Bible, the follow the Catechism (i grew up catholic), and other such "religions" like Jehova's Witness or Mormonism, who claim to have gotten their revelation from a later spiritual authority than what we already have.  So I say again, the majority of disagreement, save a select few denominations and religions are not heaven or hell issues.  My pastor, James MacDonald, did two years in a row, this forum called The Elephant Room, the title referring to the common saying "There is an elephant in the room".  These forums brought various, well known pastors from around the nation such as Mark Driscoll, T.D. Jakes, Steven Furtick, James MacDonald (of course), Scott Graham, among others, to come together and discuss the various things that they differed on to 1) discover how and why and 2) to find common ground to agree upon as Christians.

These "sects" that you are referring to, that say the other sect is going to hell is what we call fundamentalist churches.  I attended one of those for 8 years. The United Pentecostal Church.  I know all about fundamentalism.  They are the people that shunned me and disowned me bcuz the woman I married "does not believe like us".  My wife brought me out of fundamentalism, and showed me what it truly means to be a Bible believing Christian.  Yes i used to believe like you do, that every denomination thinks they are right and everyone else is going to hell, but after coming OUT of fundamentalism, and stepping into the "regular" christian world, i can say thats not so. 

You do realize that the Bible that you are using was (for the most part) put together by a bunch of Catholics, right?

I am well aware of the ecumenical councils that were held.  The councils canonized the compilations that were already present, while omitting works that were debatable.  What went on did not devalue what was already written.  What WAS wrong was how they took the current pagan belief structure and changed names, holidays, etc. 

Nowhere in the Bible does it deify Mary, or any of the Apostles, nor does it EVER say to pray to anyone except for Jesus.  The ONLY holiday EVER mentioned in the New Testament is Pentecost.  The Bible EXPLICITLY and CONTINUOUSLY uses references to marriage to describe the relationship between Jesus and the church, as well as referring to Jesus as our great high priest, and that we are all kings and priests in Him, meaning we can vouch for our own sins, and nowhere does it say anything about monastic vows.  

You can say all you want about the Catholic church putting together the Bible, but the writings were already there before hand.  They may have canonized it, but they certainly didn't 100% base their creeds and catechism off of it.  So I don't see where you are coming from.  

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


jcgadfly
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JesusLovesYou wrote:jcgadfly

JesusLovesYou wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

JesusLovesYou wrote:

harleysportster wrote:

JesusLovesYou wrote:

 Since the things of God are spiritually discerned (1 corinthians 2:14) a proper understanding of scripture is often more the result of an individuals spiritual condition than his or her intellectual ability.  Often the truth of Scripture will appear to be "folly" to those who have rejected the claims of Jesus. 

What exactly is a "PROPER" understanding of Scripture.

There are hundreds of Christian sects that all believe the other sect is going to hell and they have the "PROPER" version of scripture. How do you explain that ? 

 

An individual's spiritual condition rather than intellect ? 

Please enlighten me, what constitutes a spiritual condition and why is it required that a person have a lack of intellect to have one ? 

So god wants dumb people that blindly follow him and wishes for us not to have intellect ? 

Must be the reason why the church tried to keep us in the dark ages for so long. 

 

I said more of a result of, not lack of, not rather than.

There have been "sects" since the church began (1 Corinthians 1) .

The majority of these "sects" have the basic mainline doctrine in common.  That is the salvation doctrine, the doctrine of the trinity.  There are things referred to as 1st line, 2nd line, and 3rd line doctrine (had this discussion with a chaplain).  The most disagreement comes from 2nd and 3rd line doctrine, which are NOT heaven or hell issues.

Yes you do have your denominations, such as the catholics, who, instead of directly following the Bible, the follow the Catechism (i grew up catholic), and other such "religions" like Jehova's Witness or Mormonism, who claim to have gotten their revelation from a later spiritual authority than what we already have.  So I say again, the majority of disagreement, save a select few denominations and religions are not heaven or hell issues.  My pastor, James MacDonald, did two years in a row, this forum called The Elephant Room, the title referring to the common saying "There is an elephant in the room".  These forums brought various, well known pastors from around the nation such as Mark Driscoll, T.D. Jakes, Steven Furtick, James MacDonald (of course), Scott Graham, among others, to come together and discuss the various things that they differed on to 1) discover how and why and 2) to find common ground to agree upon as Christians.

These "sects" that you are referring to, that say the other sect is going to hell is what we call fundamentalist churches.  I attended one of those for 8 years. The United Pentecostal Church.  I know all about fundamentalism.  They are the people that shunned me and disowned me bcuz the woman I married "does not believe like us".  My wife brought me out of fundamentalism, and showed me what it truly means to be a Bible believing Christian.  Yes i used to believe like you do, that every denomination thinks they are right and everyone else is going to hell, but after coming OUT of fundamentalism, and stepping into the "regular" christian world, i can say thats not so. 

You do realize that the Bible that you are using was (for the most part) put together by a bunch of Catholics, right?

I am well aware of the ecumenical councils that were held.  The councils canonized the compilations that were already present, while omitting works that were debatable.  What went on did not devalue what was already written.  What WAS wrong was how they took the current pagan belief structure and changed names, holidays, etc. 

Nowhere in the Bible does it deify Mary, or any of the Apostles, nor does it EVER say to pray to anyone except for Jesus.  The ONLY holiday EVER mentioned in the New Testament is Pentecost.  The Bible EXPLICITLY and CONTINUOUSLY uses references to marriage to describe the relationship between Jesus and the church, as well as referring to Jesus as our great high priest, and that we are all kings and priests in Him, meaning we can vouch for our own sins, and nowhere does it say anything about monastic vows.  

You can say all you want about the Catholic church putting together the Bible, but the writings were already there before hand.  They may have canonized it, but they certainly didn't 100% base their creeds and catechism off of it.  So I don't see where you are coming from.  

1. Pagan belief structure? You mean like savior-gods and resurrection?

2. So you like the Catholics for giving you the Bible but you don't like them because they interpret some parts differently?

3. You also seem to not approve of Jesus saying he was the Messiah but have no problem with Paul saying he was God (a claim Jesus did not make).

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Quote:truth   [trooth]

Quote:
truth   [trooth]

noun, plural truths  [troothz, trooths]

1. the true  or actual state of a matter: He tried to find out the truth.

2. conformity with fact or reality; verity: the truth of a statement.

3. a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like: mathematical truths.

4. the state or character of being true.

5. actuality or actual existence.

/topic
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JesusLovesYou wrote:jcgadfly

JesusLovesYou wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

JesusLovesYou wrote:

harleysportster wrote:

JesusLovesYou wrote:

 Since the things of God are spiritually discerned (1 corinthians 2:14) a proper understanding of scripture is often more the result of an individuals spiritual condition than his or her intellectual ability.  Often the truth of Scripture will appear to be "folly" to those who have rejected the claims of Jesus. 

What exactly is a "PROPER" understanding of Scripture.

There are hundreds of Christian sects that all believe the other sect is going to hell and they have the "PROPER" version of scripture. How do you explain that ? 

 

An individual's spiritual condition rather than intellect ? 

Please enlighten me, what constitutes a spiritual condition and why is it required that a person have a lack of intellect to have one ? 

So god wants dumb people that blindly follow him and wishes for us not to have intellect ? 

Must be the reason why the church tried to keep us in the dark ages for so long. 

 

I said more of a result of, not lack of, not rather than.

There have been "sects" since the church began (1 Corinthians 1) .

The majority of these "sects" have the basic mainline doctrine in common.  That is the salvation doctrine, the doctrine of the trinity.  There are things referred to as 1st line, 2nd line, and 3rd line doctrine (had this discussion with a chaplain).  The most disagreement comes from 2nd and 3rd line doctrine, which are NOT heaven or hell issues.

Yes you do have your denominations, such as the catholics, who, instead of directly following the Bible, the follow the Catechism (i grew up catholic), and other such "religions" like Jehova's Witness or Mormonism, who claim to have gotten their revelation from a later spiritual authority than what we already have.  So I say again, the majority of disagreement, save a select few denominations and religions are not heaven or hell issues.  My pastor, James MacDonald, did two years in a row, this forum called The Elephant Room, the title referring to the common saying "There is an elephant in the room".  These forums brought various, well known pastors from around the nation such as Mark Driscoll, T.D. Jakes, Steven Furtick, James MacDonald (of course), Scott Graham, among others, to come together and discuss the various things that they differed on to 1) discover how and why and 2) to find common ground to agree upon as Christians.

These "sects" that you are referring to, that say the other sect is going to hell is what we call fundamentalist churches.  I attended one of those for 8 years. The United Pentecostal Church.  I know all about fundamentalism.  They are the people that shunned me and disowned me bcuz the woman I married "does not believe like us".  My wife brought me out of fundamentalism, and showed me what it truly means to be a Bible believing Christian.  Yes i used to believe like you do, that every denomination thinks they are right and everyone else is going to hell, but after coming OUT of fundamentalism, and stepping into the "regular" christian world, i can say thats not so. 

You do realize that the Bible that you are using was (for the most part) put together by a bunch of Catholics, right?

I am well aware of the ecumenical councils that were held.  The councils canonized the compilations that were already present, while omitting works that were debatable.  What went on did not devalue what was already written.  What WAS wrong was how they took the current pagan belief structure and changed names, holidays, etc. 

Nowhere in the Bible does it deify Mary, or any of the Apostles, nor does it EVER say to pray to anyone except for Jesus.  The ONLY holiday EVER mentioned in the New Testament is Pentecost.  The Bible EXPLICITLY and CONTINUOUSLY uses references to marriage to describe the relationship between Jesus and the church, as well as referring to Jesus as our great high priest, and that we are all kings and priests in Him, meaning we can vouch for our own sins, and nowhere does it say anything about monastic vows.  

You can say all you want about the Catholic church putting together the Bible, but the writings were already there before hand.  They may have canonized it, but they certainly didn't 100% base their creeds and catechism off of it.  So I don't see where you are coming from.  

 

Arguing the history of ANY religion is POINTLESS. If people here want to wade through that yellow brick road, we have plenty well versed in religious history, but to me it is irrelevant.

Islam would not exist if some REAL person did not invent it, or decide how the Koran was to be arranged and what the contents of it was. HUMANS invent religions and pass them down over generations.

Real people existing does not make the god or gods they claim real, otherwise the gods of the Pharaohs would be real because Pharaohs were real people.

Mecca is a real place, but you don't believe in Allah.

All god beliefs start with the assumption that there is a non material magical super brain with no brain, no neurons, no location, that is everywhere and nowhere at the same time. And the big three, the god/s of the Abram tradition, started by the Hebrews pulling names and motifs out of the prior polytheism of the Canaanites.

Humans invent gods. Gods are not real, not any, not yours, not any in human history. Gods, including your pet claim is merely a reflection of your own human desire born out of the real ignorance that human evolution can produce and has always produced.

God is merely human imagination.

 

 

 

 

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Quote:1. Pagan belief

Quote:

1. Pagan belief structure? You mean like savior-gods and resurrection?

i've seen your "god who wasn't there" film, and its bogus.  grasping at straws, pulling pieces and parts from various myths forcing them to look like Christ is a copy. 

Quote:

2. So you like the Catholics for giving you the Bible but you don't like them because they interpret some parts differently?

you misunderstand my words.  The writings of the OT, the Gospels, and the epistles WERE ALREADY COMPILED numerous times before.  The ecumenical council only CANONIZED it.  That doesn't change the integrity of what is written.  Interpret parts differently? a lot of their doctrine comes from outside the bible.  Find me Christmas, Easter, monastic vows, the deification of Mary, Peter, James, John, etc., prayer to those same.  Find where it says priests are still necessary for atonement of sin.  Saying those things are a different interpretation is a far cry. 

Quote:

3. You also seem to not approve of Jesus saying he was the Messiah but have no problem with Paul saying he was God (a claim Jesus did not make).

John 8:56-58 "Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day.  He saw it and was glad.  So the Jews aid to him, 'you are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?'  Jesus said to them 'Truly, Truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."<--You said Jesus never claimed it?

The words "I am" in Greek use the same expression (Ego eimi) found in the Septuagint in the first half of God's self identification in Exodus 3:14 "I AM WHO I AM".  Jesus is thus claiming not only to be eternal but also to be the God who appeared to Moses at the burning bush.  His Jewish opponents understood immediately and they "picked up stones" to stone him to death for blasphemy. 

Here is a commentary I put together on John 1:1-18
John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The fact that Word is captitalized personifies it, and this verse shows that Word=God and also with God.
John 1:2 "He was in the beginning with God"
this verse gives "the Word" gender and again states He was with God.
John 1:3 "All things were made through him, and without him not any thing made that was made."
this verse is claiming that "the Word", which verse 1 indicates to BE God and WITH God is responsible for creation.
John 1:4-5 "In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it."
"the Word" which verse 1 indicates to BE god and WITH God brings light into darkness.
John 1:6-8 refers to John the Baptist and how he came to bear witness about the light, but was not the light himself.
[b]Malachi 3:1 "Behold, i send my messenger, and he will prepare the way before me. And the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple; and the messenger in whom you delight, behold he is coming, says the Lord of hosts."

John 1:9 "The true light,which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world"
The light, which comes from "the Word", which verse 1 indicates to BE God and WITH God is coming INTO the world
John 1:10 "He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him."
we know by this verse that "He" refers to "the Word", and again it states that "He" was here on earth, responsible for creating this earth, yet the world did not know him.
John 1:11 "He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him."
"His own", referring to people, and that they didn't want anything to do with Him
John 1:12-13 states that those that received him, he gave the right to become "children of God"
salvation experience
John 1:14 "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth."
This states "the Word" which we know now refers to God and with God became flesh, or man, and lived with us. The words Son and Father are capitalized, which refers to God the Father, and we know that Christ is the Son.
John 1:15 "(John bore witness about him, and cried out, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.'&quotEye-wink"
This verse is supporting verse 14 with saying this is who John the baptist was preaching about
John 1:16-17 "And from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ."
from the fullness of "the Word" we receive grace. Previously is verse 14 it is stated the "the Word" is full of grace and truth. We now see in verse 17 that grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
John 1:18 "No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known."
John again refers to two different "persons" as the same God, the Father, and the one who is at the Father's side. He, "the Word", the light, the Son, Jesus Christ has made him, God, known.

Chapter 1:1-18 states that "the Word" is the creator of all things, the light shining in the darkness, that "the Word" is and is with God, incinuating that there are at least 2 parts to Him. It states that "the Word" walked among us. It states "the Word" is full of grace and truth, and that grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

To further show that Chapter 1:1-18 is referring to Christ lets go back to verse 15:
[b]"(John bore witness about him, and cried out, "this was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.'&quotEye-wink"
now lets jump to verse 29-30,which is about John the baptist:
"The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! This is he of whom I said, After me comes a man who ranks before me, because he was before me."
Verses 29-30 affirm that verse 15 is referring to Jesus Christ. 
The Apostle John is CLEARLY stating in the beginning of his gospel that Jesus Christ is 100% FULLY the God that created the universe that has come down from heaven and humbled Himself as a man.

 

Messiah is found 4 times in the Bible. Twice in Daniel, and Twice in John.  As seen above, John very well knew Jesus to be the creator God.  Aside from the first 18 verses of his gospel, ego eimi was used 7 times in John in the context of Christ referring to His identity.  To bring this further, Jesus, in Revelation 1:8 states "I am the Alpha and the Omega" then again in Revelation 22:16 states "I am the root and the descendant of David," In John 20:28 Thomas refers to Jesus as "My Lord and my God", and Jesus then replies...."because you have seen me you have believed" 

In his gospel, Matthew attributed the name Immanuel to Jesus, Immanuel meaning God with us.  

Now where does Jesus say that He is NOT God?  Now keep in mind I didn't say "The father", I said God.  People often make that mistake.  The Father and the Son are two of three parts to ONE God.  There is separation between Father and Son, but not Jesus and God. 

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


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^ Circular logic for the

^ Circular logic for the loss.

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Quote:you misunderstand my

Quote:
you misunderstand my words.  The writings of the OT, the Gospels, and the epistles WERE ALREADY COMPILED numerous times before. 

HELLO MCFLY! That should tell you something.

If one wants to claim an all powerful perfect god created all this, and has the power to snap anything he wants into existence, then why take the lesser efficient path of getting your instruction manual written by fallible humans, over 1,000 year period, by 40 authors, with books left out, and translations no scholars or historians can agree to and constant arguments over how to interpret them.

I am sorry, but I wouldn't hire such an inept being to write assembly instructions for a bicycle factory, the buyer would end up with octopus for spokes and a PBJ sandwich for a bike seat.

The bible does not smack of the divine. I totally smacks of scientific ignorance, moral bankruptcy and plagiarism.

The OT does not look forward, it was written for the Hebrews of that time. The Gospel writers simply took the Hebrew writings after the fact and manufactured a new cult, and the writers after that looked backwards and retrofit what they wanted to the older stories to make them look like they matched.

The bible was not handed down by a god, it was written by humans who merely wanted a god to come and save them AT THAT TIME.

It is nothing but a book of myth.

Real people did write those things, but just because they did did not make their claims credible, again, otherwise the Egyptian sun god should be real because Pharaohs existed and made note of their claims.

 

 

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Brian37 wrote:Quote:you

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
you misunderstand my words.  The writings of the OT, the Gospels, and the epistles WERE ALREADY COMPILED numerous times before. 

HELLO MCFLY! That should tell you something.

If one wants to claim an all powerful perfect god created all this, and has the power to snap anything he wants into existence, then why take the lesser efficient path of getting your instruction manual written by fallible humans, over 1,000 year period, by 40 authors, with books left out, and translations no scholars or historians can agree to and constant arguments over how to interpret them.

I am sorry, but I wouldn't hire such an inept being to write assembly instructions for a bicycle factory, the buyer would end up with octopus for spokes and a PBJ sandwich for a bike seat.

The bible does not smack of the divine. I totally smacks of scientific ignorance, moral bankruptcy and plagiarism.

The OT does not look forward, it was written for the Hebrews of that time. The Gospel writers simply took the Hebrew writings after the fact and manufactured a new cult, and the writers after that looked backwards and retrofit what they wanted to the older stories to make them look like they matched.

The bible was not handed down by a god, it was written by humans who merely wanted a god to come and save them AT THAT TIME.

It is nothing but a book of myth.

Real people did write those things, but just because they did did not make their claims credible, again, otherwise the Egyptian sun god should be real because Pharaohs existed and made note of their claims 

 

How does that destroy the credibility of God?  Jesus fulfilled over 300 prophesies written hundreds of years before.  The writings weren't merely written by man, but anointed men moved on by the Holy Spirit.  the other writings, were omitted for legitimate reasons such as not historically significant.  It was not "we'll pick this because we like what it says"

Matthew and John were both disciples of Christ.  Mark is a second hand account of Peter, while Luke is a second hand dictation from Paul, whom met the Lord on the road to Damascus. 

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


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Behold

 

JesusLovesYou wrote:

How does that destroy the credibility of God?  Jesus fulfilled over 300 prophesies written hundreds of years before.  The writings weren't merely written by man, but anointed men moved on by the Holy Spirit.  the other writings, were omitted for legitimate reasons such as not historically significant.  It was not "we'll pick this because we like what it says"

Matthew and John were both disciples of Christ.  Mark is a second hand account of Peter, while Luke is a second hand dictation from Paul, whom met the Lord on the road to Damascus. 

 

the delusion is strong with this one...

 

"We'll pick this because we like what it says."

 

Yes - this was exactly what it was like. Things were no different then than they are today. You need to read some church history. Start with Henry Chadwick's The Early Church. Even some one without your pronounced cognitive blind spots will see that a welter of interest groups, separated by geography, influence and textual interpretation, fought over what to include and that the fundamentals of trinitarianism, an incoherent and irrational doctrine, were pushed through by Roman emperor Theodosius around 381.

Your claims about fulfilling prophecies and meeting the lord on straight street are baseless assertions that prove jesus and god are far more myth than reality. The entire life of jesus is contrived. And please explain to me the nature of the holy spirit. They were moved by the holy spirit. What does this mean?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Surely some mistake

JesusLovesYou wrote:

Matthew and John were both disciples of Christ.  Mark is a second hand account of Peter, while Luke is a second hand dictation from Paul, whom met the Lord on the road to Damascus. 

"Paul" only ever claims to have 'met the Lord' in a hallucination.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_of_Paul

Within the New Testament, Paul's conversion experience is discussed in both Paul's own letters and in the book known by the title Acts of the Apostles. In both instances, the conversion experience is described to be miraculous or revelatory in nature. According to both sources, Paul was never a follower of Jesus nor knew him before Jesus's crucifixion; instead he persecuted the early Christians. Although Paul refers to himself as an "Apostle" of Jesus, it is clear that Paul was not one of "The Twelve" apostles. (1 Corinthians 9:1-2). Paul's conversion occurred after Jesus's crucifixion, and the accounts of Paul's conversion experience describe it as miraculous, supernatural, or otherwise revelatory in nature.

 

"Matthew" and "John" were both written long after the supposed time of Christ.

 

 


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JesusLovesYou wrote:Brian37

JesusLovesYou wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
you misunderstand my words.  The writings of the OT, the Gospels, and the epistles WERE ALREADY COMPILED numerous times before. 

HELLO MCFLY! That should tell you something.

If one wants to claim an all powerful perfect god created all this, and has the power to snap anything he wants into existence, then why take the lesser efficient path of getting your instruction manual written by fallible humans, over 1,000 year period, by 40 authors, with books left out, and translations no scholars or historians can agree to and constant arguments over how to interpret them.

I am sorry, but I wouldn't hire such an inept being to write assembly instructions for a bicycle factory, the buyer would end up with octopus for spokes and a PBJ sandwich for a bike seat.

The bible does not smack of the divine. I totally smacks of scientific ignorance, moral bankruptcy and plagiarism.

The OT does not look forward, it was written for the Hebrews of that time. The Gospel writers simply took the Hebrew writings after the fact and manufactured a new cult, and the writers after that looked backwards and retrofit what they wanted to the older stories to make them look like they matched.

The bible was not handed down by a god, it was written by humans who merely wanted a god to come and save them AT THAT TIME.

It is nothing but a book of myth.

Real people did write those things, but just because they did did not make their claims credible, again, otherwise the Egyptian sun god should be real because Pharaohs existed and made note of their claims 

 

How does that destroy the credibility of God?  Jesus fulfilled over 300 prophesies written hundreds of years before.  The writings weren't merely written by man, but anointed men moved on by the Holy Spirit.  the other writings, were omitted for legitimate reasons such as not historically significant.  It was not "we'll pick this because we like what it says"

Matthew and John were both disciples of Christ.  Mark is a second hand account of Peter, while Luke is a second hand dictation from Paul, whom met the Lord on the road to Damascus. 

Do not expect the circular reasoning every religion uses  "I quote my book to prove my book" to work on us. It is hardly evidence or impressive or even new to us.

If a Muslim said "My book predicts" would that cause you to be a Muslim? Don't be stupid and think we have never run into that.

Long before your magic baby/zombie god myth the ancient Greeks and Egyptians  had their magic seers too, they called them Oracles, still doesn't mean humans magically predict history. It is bullshit.

Gullibility like that is what makes people waste  5 bucks a minute talking to phoney psychics.  Gullibility like that is why people believe the moon landing was faked.

THE OT AND THE GOSPELS WERE NOT WRITTEN FOR MODERN TIMES, there are no fucking modern words in that book. NONE! You will not find the word "computer" or "cell phone" or "DNA". You wont find my name with my birthday in that book.

What the writers of the gospels did is read the OT FIRST and then write their new super hero in to match AFTER THE FACT. IT IS CALLED RETROFITTING.

This is the same gullibility that has people believing that the Mayans predicted the end of the world.

It is called RETROFITTING. If you want to read into those words what you want you will. Muslims do it too, but you are not a Muslim.

You have fallen for a superstition, nothing more. You want a super hero so badly you will read into those words whatever you want to read into them to suit your own desires.

If you have any balls and are brave enough, or  even care to understand what you are needlessly inflicting yourself with read the following books.

1. "Why People Believe Weird Things" Micheal Shermer, Degree in Psychology, who traveled through all sorts of religions before giving up on them.

2. The New Atheism, Victor Stinger, SCIENTIST, who explains why humans are all the same.

3. The God Delusion, Richard Dawkins. Explains aptly what humans do to themselves OF ALL RELIGIONS, like you are doing here as a misfire of the brain, as he puts it "The moth mistaking the light bulb for moonlight". It is the evolutionary explanation as to why people make up and belief false things. Not just you and not just this, but all of human evolution.

 

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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And this doomsday bullshit

And this doomsday bullshit religion promotes KILLS! Every generation for the past 2,000 years has produced all sorts of nuts in all three if these blood cults who "predict" the end of the world.

Gullibility like that caused Jim Jones to murder 900 people. Gullibility like that caused Marshal Applewhite to murder 30+ people. Gullibility like that caused 90 people to be burned to death at Wako Tx.

What sickens me about the big three, is that they don't seem to give one fuck about the rest of us. To Islam, Christianity and Jew, what matters to them is that daddy told them that the planet was their giant game of capture the flag, and who gives a fuck if outsiders die in the process, as long as daddy gets sucked up to.

Do you even give one fuck about people not involved in your superstition? Do you even care that religious people of all three blood cults have their fingers on the buttons of nukes that could KILL ME?

No, you all only give a shit about beating each other up over a dead myth you are too childish to discard.

I wouldn't give a fuck what you believe if it did not affect me. But as long as religious people affect politics and have weapons, and are willing to take a scorched earth policy, when this is the only home I have, I have every right to say BULLSHIT, fans of these blood cults can get me killed.

If we ever get to a point where there is another planet you guys can kill each other on, go there and have fun and leave the rest of us alone.

Your gullibility gets people killed.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Brian37 wrote: I wouldn't

Brian37 wrote:

 

I wouldn't give a fuck what you believe if it did not affect me. But as long as religious people affect politics and have weapons, and are willing to take a scorched earth policy, when this is the only home I have, I have every right to say BULLSHIT, fans of these blood cults can get me killed.

 

 

Not only can these religions get us killed, they can lead us into some nightmare world that will make Orwell's 1984 look like a Paradise. 

I totally agree. I don't care what people believe, I just want them to stop FORCING their morals and myths on me. 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


jcgadfly
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JesusLovesYou wrote:Quote:1.

JesusLovesYou wrote:

Quote:

1. Pagan belief structure? You mean like savior-gods and resurrection?

i've seen your "god who wasn't there" film, and its bogus.  grasping at straws, pulling pieces and parts from various myths forcing them to look like Christ is a copy. 

Quote:

2. So you like the Catholics for giving you the Bible but you don't like them because they interpret some parts differently?

you misunderstand my words.  The writings of the OT, the Gospels, and the epistles WERE ALREADY COMPILED numerous times before.  The ecumenical council only CANONIZED it.  That doesn't change the integrity of what is written.  Interpret parts differently? a lot of their doctrine comes from outside the bible.  Find me Christmas, Easter, monastic vows, the deification of Mary, Peter, James, John, etc., prayer to those same.  Find where it says priests are still necessary for atonement of sin.  Saying those things are a different interpretation is a far cry. 

Quote:

3. You also seem to not approve of Jesus saying he was the Messiah but have no problem with Paul saying he was God (a claim Jesus did not make).

John 8:56-58 "Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day.  He saw it and was glad.  So the Jews aid to him, 'you are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?'  Jesus said to them 'Truly, Truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."<--You said Jesus never claimed it?

The words "I am" in Greek use the same expression (Ego eimi) found in the Septuagint in the first half of God's self identification in Exodus 3:14 "I AM WHO I AM".  Jesus is thus claiming not only to be eternal but also to be the God who appeared to Moses at the burning bush.  His Jewish opponents understood immediately and they "picked up stones" to stone him to death for blasphemy. 

 

Here is a commentary I put together on John 1:1-18
John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The fact that Word is captitalized personifies it, and this verse shows that Word=God and also with God.
John 1:2 "He was in the beginning with God"
this verse gives "the Word" gender and again states He was with God.
John 1:3 "All things were made through him, and without him not any thing made that was made."
this verse is claiming that "the Word", which verse 1 indicates to BE God and WITH God is responsible for creation.
John 1:4-5 "In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it."
"the Word" which verse 1 indicates to BE god and WITH God brings light into darkness.
John 1:6-8 refers to John the Baptist and how he came to bear witness about the light, but was not the light himself.
[b]Malachi 3:1 "Behold, i send my messenger, and he will prepare the way before me. And the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple; and the messenger in whom you delight, behold he is coming, says the Lord of hosts."

John 1:9 "The true light,which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world"
The light, which comes from "the Word", which verse 1 indicates to BE God and WITH God is coming INTO the world
John 1:10 "He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him."
we know by this verse that "He" refers to "the Word", and again it states that "He" was here on earth, responsible for creating this earth, yet the world did not know him.
John 1:11 "He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him."
"His own", referring to people, and that they didn't want anything to do with Him
John 1:12-13 states that those that received him, he gave the right to become "children of God"
salvation experience
John 1:14 "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth."
This states "the Word" which we know now refers to God and with God became flesh, or man, and lived with us. The words Son and Father are capitalized, which refers to God the Father, and we know that Christ is the Son.
John 1:15 "(John bore witness about him, and cried out, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.'&quotEye-wink"
This verse is supporting verse 14 with saying this is who John the baptist was preaching about
John 1:16-17 "And from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ."
from the fullness of "the Word" we receive grace. Previously is verse 14 it is stated the "the Word" is full of grace and truth. We now see in verse 17 that grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
John 1:18 "No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known."
John again refers to two different "persons" as the same God, the Father, and the one who is at the Father's side. He, "the Word", the light, the Son, Jesus Christ has made him, God, known.

Chapter 1:1-18 states that "the Word" is the creator of all things, the light shining in the darkness, that "the Word" is and is with God, incinuating that there are at least 2 parts to Him. It states that "the Word" walked among us. It states "the Word" is full of grace and truth, and that grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

To further show that Chapter 1:1-18 is referring to Christ lets go back to verse 15:
[b]"(John bore witness about him, and cried out, "this was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.'&quotEye-wink"
now lets jump to verse 29-30,which is about John the baptist:
"The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! This is he of whom I said, After me comes a man who ranks before me, because he was before me."
Verses 29-30 affirm that verse 15 is referring to Jesus Christ. 
The Apostle John is CLEARLY stating in the beginning of his gospel that Jesus Christ is 100% FULLY the God that created the universe that has come down from heaven and humbled Himself as a man.

 

Messiah is found 4 times in the Bible. Twice in Daniel, and Twice in John.  As seen above, John very well knew Jesus to be the creator God.  Aside from the first 18 verses of his gospel, ego eimi was used 7 times in John in the context of Christ referring to His identity.  To bring this further, Jesus, in Revelation 1:8 states "I am the Alpha and the Omega" then again in Revelation 22:16 states "I am the root and the descendant of David," In John 20:28 Thomas refers to Jesus as "My Lord and my God", and Jesus then replies...."because you have seen me you have believed" 

In his gospel, Matthew attributed the name Immanuel to Jesus, Immanuel meaning God with us.  

Now where does Jesus say that He is NOT God?  Now keep in mind I didn't say "The father", I said God.  People often make that mistake.  The Father and the Son are two of three parts to ONE God.  There is separation between Father and Son, but not Jesus and God. 

 

People have created characters and written dialogue for them for eons.

The author of John (a convert of Paul) wrote those words and attributed it to the character of Jesus. It is not surprising that Paul's converts would claim that Paul's character of Jesus (who Paul needed to be a God) was one. Paul's Jesus has no basis in history. If there were a historical Jesus, he would've shuddered at the idea of a man being God (he was Jewish, remember). 

The author of Matthew wrote for the same reason as John did later and both of you got it wrong. Or do you worship Manny the Messiah as well?

Paul gave his character the name "Jesus Christ" as a title (Messiah the Deliverer) which has nothing to do with an person or God.

At best, you are only able to honestly say that Paul created Jesus to be a god like Yahweh. That makes you a polytheist. Trinitarianism is just a sloppy work-around so Christians can be polytheists and not feel guilty about it.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Brian37
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harleysportster wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

 

I wouldn't give a fuck what you believe if it did not affect me. But as long as religious people affect politics and have weapons, and are willing to take a scorched earth policy, when this is the only home I have, I have every right to say BULLSHIT, fans of these blood cults can get me killed.

 

 

Not only can these religions get us killed, they can lead us into some nightmare world that will make Orwell's 1984 look like a Paradise. 

I totally agree. I don't care what people believe, I just want them to stop FORCING their morals and myths on me. 

 

Hitchens described the God character and heaven quite aptly "A celestial North Korea". The god character is unmovable. You cannot vote him out of office. You cannot impeach him. He plays thought police and morality police and does so WITHOUT your consent. You cannot leave him. He treats those who kiss his ass fine, but you cannot dissent or disagree. If you do, he hunts you down, drags you back, and or tortures you forever. God has more in common with Kim Jung Ill than I do.

Now we cant pragmatically erase religion by force. But we can always keep religious and political fascism at bay by always demanding and protecting the ability to challenge absurd claims.

And people like the OP falsely think that atheists like us cannot value freedom of religion or the Constitution, which is utter and total bullshit. If it were not for the Constitution and especially the First Amendment and "NO RELIGIOUS TEST" there would be people who would not only oppress atheists in America, but even sects of Christianity they deem to be cults.

Hitchens considered, and I do to, Thomas Jefferson his hero who said  "Question with boldness even the existence of a god, for if there be one, surely he would pay more homage to reason than to that of blindfolded fear". If Jefferson ran today, he'd probably run as an economic moderate, but could not get nominated by either party because of what he said about the dangers of religion and pulpit politics.

Oh and to the OP another book Christopher Hitchens "Jefferson, Author Of America".

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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JesusLovesYou wrote:
Since the things of God are spiritually discerned (1 corinthians 2:14) a proper understanding of scripture is often more the result of an individuals spiritual condition than his or her intellectual ability.  Often the truth of Scripture will appear to be "folly" to those who have rejected the claims of Jesus.

"The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit."

So it is a closed market. Always has been. Why do believers try to say otherwise?

 

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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JesusLovesYou wrote:
The Bible EXPLICITLY and CONTINUOUSLY uses references to marriage to describe the relationship between Jesus and the church,

Noting that IF the gospels and epistles are legitimate then this reference could only be to marriage as practiced and understood in the time of Jesus in Galilee and Judea. Marriage there and in that time was polygamous. Roman monogamy was a later addition.

So I guess you are right in saying different sects are acceptable as it emulates polygamy.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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JesusLovesYou wrote:
Quote:
1. Pagan belief structure? You mean like savior-gods and resurrection?

i've seen your "god who wasn't there" film, and its bogus.  grasping at straws, pulling pieces and parts from various myths forcing them to look like Christ is a copy.

Quote:

Not a copy. A reimagining of the dead and reborn god theme sort of like our reimaginings of vampire stories from Stoker to Buffy. There is no claim the Jesus story is a copy it is simply another story on a popular theme. It is like Mark where someone tacked on a resurrection for a happy ending.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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JesusLovesYou wrote:
How does that destroy the credibility of God?  Jesus fulfilled over 300 prophesies written hundreds of years before.  The writings weren't merely written by man, but anointed men moved on by the Holy Spirit.  the other writings, were omitted for legitimate reasons such as not historically significant.  It was not "we'll pick this because we like what it says"

And his name shall be Immanuel. BZZZZZZZT! Wrong name.

Your explanation for that as well as all the other misses will be, "Who are you going to believe? Me or your own lying eyes?" None of the prophesies are permitted to have their plain meanings. We have been over this.

Quote:
Matthew and John were both disciples of Christ.  Mark is a second hand account of Peter, while Luke is a second hand dictation from Paul, whom met the Lord on the road to Damascus. 

Where is this written? Not argued but written.

And we know they contain lies if they include what happened while Jesus was alone in Gethsemane and anything else the author could not have experienced. And where they contradict each other only one can be true so the others must be lies.

It is not really wise to hang your hat on such contrived stories.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


jcgadfly
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A_Nony_Mouse

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

JesusLovesYou wrote:
How does that destroy the credibility of God?  Jesus fulfilled over 300 prophesies written hundreds of years before.  The writings weren't merely written by man, but anointed men moved on by the Holy Spirit.  the other writings, were omitted for legitimate reasons such as not historically significant.  It was not "we'll pick this because we like what it says"

And his name shall be Immanuel. BZZZZZZZT! Wrong name.

Your explanation for that as well as all the other misses will be, "Who are you going to believe? Me or your own lying eyes?" None of the prophesies are permitted to have their plain meanings. We have been over this.

Quote:
Matthew and John were both disciples of Christ.  Mark is a second hand account of Peter, while Luke is a second hand dictation from Paul, whom met the Lord on the road to Damascus. 

Where is this written? Not argued but written.

And we know they contain lies if they include what happened while Jesus was alone in Gethsemane and anything else the author could not have experienced. And where they contradict each other only one can be true so the others must be lies.

It is not really wise to hang your hat on such contrived stories.

 

Well, when that's all you have to hang your hat on...

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


A_Nony_Mouse
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jcgadfly wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

JesusLovesYou wrote:
How does that destroy the credibility of God?  Jesus fulfilled over 300 prophesies written hundreds of years before.  The writings weren't merely written by man, but anointed men moved on by the Holy Spirit.  the other writings, were omitted for legitimate reasons such as not historically significant.  It was not "we'll pick this because we like what it says"

And his name shall be Immanuel. BZZZZZZZT! Wrong name.

Your explanation for that as well as all the other misses will be, "Who are you going to believe? Me or your own lying eyes?" None of the prophesies are permitted to have their plain meanings. We have been over this.

Quote:
Matthew and John were both disciples of Christ.  Mark is a second hand account of Peter, while Luke is a second hand dictation from Paul, whom met the Lord on the road to Damascus. 

Where is this written? Not argued but written.

And we know they contain lies if they include what happened while Jesus was alone in Gethsemane and anything else the author could not have experienced. And where they contradict each other only one can be true so the others must be lies.

It is not really wise to hang your hat on such contrived stories.

Well, when that's all you have to hang your hat on...

When making a living on the end of the world REAL SOON and people start asking what soon means it all takes reinterpretation.

In fact the imminent return in the gospels are the things, maybe only things, that argue for having been written before a new meaning of soon was needed. It is a rather obvious argument but I have yet to find a theist source making it. It is almost conclusive absent evidence to the contrary. But if they were to make it they would have to explain how infallibility was by-passed on this very crucial subject.

 

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml