Problem of evil, Jesus and free will

Teralek
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Problem of evil, Jesus and free will

Ok. This question is more to Christians and ex-Christians.

Depending on the position of Jesus, he may contradict certain notions that seek to dismiss the evil problem with free will.

Many Christians when confronted with the evil problem often say that we were given free will and this allowed us to rebel against God if we wanted to. Well given that God is omnipotent in theory he could still make us morally perfect and with free will at the same time... but that's not the point I want to make...

The point is Jesus. If Jesus is the son of God and not God himself (like some evangelical dogmas postulate) he is much like us because since we were also made by God than we are also his sons and daughters. If this is so then why could God have created a perfectly moral Jesus who couldn't or wouldn't rebel against God, BUT could not have created us in the same way?!

If we were created in the same "fashion" as Jesus we would still be living in the garden of eden.

And in this sense, do we have more free will than Jesus? how? why?

The figure of Jesus and it's traditional role in religion doesn't make any sense.

______________________________________________________________
"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies


Teralek
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guess my question was too

guess my question was too hard for the very few Christians here eh?

Mkay...

 


Vastet
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Well I'm not your target

Well I'm not your target audience (I was never a christian), but I'll respond so you at least get a response.

The way I always understood the scenario was that jesus was the first and only person in recent times to be given true free will: he was directly approached by and communicated with god, and so was able to choose for himself whether or not to believe and follow that god. This caused him some emotional dilemma's, which he eventually worked out through faith in the god he knew was there.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Atheistextremist
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This is a good point

Teralek wrote:

Ok. This question is more to Christians and ex-Christians.

Depending on the position of Jesus, he may contradict certain notions that seek to dismiss the evil problem with free will.

Many Christians when confronted with the evil problem often say that we were given free will and this allowed us to rebel against God if we wanted to. Well given that God is omnipotent in theory he could still make us morally perfect and with free will at the same time... but that's not the point I want to make...

The point is Jesus. If Jesus is the son of God and not God himself (like some evangelical dogmas postulate) he is much like us because since we were also made by God than we are also his sons and daughters. If this is so then why could God have created a perfectly moral Jesus who couldn't or wouldn't rebel against God, BUT could not have created us in the same way?!

If we were created in the same "fashion" as Jesus we would still be living in the garden of eden.

And in this sense, do we have more free will than Jesus? how? why?

The figure of Jesus and it's traditional role in religion doesn't make any sense.

 

If god could make jesus part-man, all-perfect, leaving out the bizzare essence of god/homoousios that's alleged to be the defining characteristic of the trinitarian jesus, then he could have made perfect humans. Jesus' behaviour and nature are peculiar. It's no wonder questions over these issues tore the early church apart. As far as the Garden of Eden is concerned, Adam and Eve should have eaten the fruit of the tree of life. They would have become gods and the bible could have ended right there. 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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The tree of life must have

The tree of life must have been a taunt.
And lo God spoke to Adam and Eve saying "PSYCHE" and there was great laughter in heaven.

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


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The fact that no christians

The fact that no christians answered this just goes to show how stupid the whole concept is.  I never pondered too long over such things when I was a christian until it all became too much to ignore. Most don't give it much thought. That is why they are still christians. They just sluff it off and go on to a new bible lesson.  As I believe Extreme was starting to hint at with the trinity, the whole idea of jesus being god and throwing free will in there just about makes you dizzy to think on it too long.

The only re-assurance I have that I am not a completely incoherent moron for ever buying in to such gobbledigook is that I was subjected to early indoctrination and the fear of hell as a child that dug deep into my psyche and prohibited my brain from functioning properly.

We walk amongst zombies.

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


Teralek
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tonyjeffers wrote:The fact

tonyjeffers wrote:

The fact that no christians answered this just goes to show how stupid the whole concept is.  I never pondered too long over such things when I was a christian until it all became too much to ignore. Most don't give it much thought. That is why they are still christians. They just sluff it off and go on to a new bible lesson.  As I believe Extreme was starting to hint at with the trinity, the whole idea of jesus being god and throwing free will in there just about makes you dizzy to think on it too long.

The only re-assurance I have that I am not a completely incoherent moron for ever buying in to such gobbledigook is that I was subjected to early indoctrination and the fear of hell as a child that dug deep into my psyche and prohibited my brain from functioning properly.

We walk amongst zombies.

 Well then... I'm glad I wrote it! They may not answer but they may see it. And with luck they may think! 

______________________________________________________________
"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies


vBlueSki
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Agreed

It is not only an idiotic move, to tell you children that they will suffer in hell for eternity if they do not believe, but it is child abuse. Take for instance an innocent eight year old who still believes in santa, that he will suffer enourmously for ever. And what do you have? A brainwashed individual that might never learn how to think for their own good.

 

Where do we get Christains? From people afraid to die? Why are they afraid to die and go out forever? I'm not sure, we've been dead for billions of years.

My parents told me this at a young age and I remember sitting in bed scared as hell about the rapture and if I was good enough and if God would want me. I'd sit there praying and praying. You know where it got me? Absolutely no where. Fear and more fear are the doctrines of all religion. Religion is not good for the world.

The only purpose I see in life is to mentally evolve our species now. So that one day we will have people living in other galaxies on far better planets living much much longer due to research. Right now we are just getting there. And believing in a very old book with some strange teachings isn't helping. It actually wishes for the end of the world!

Eternity wouldn't be much of an experience.


Brian37
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Teralek wrote:Ok. This

Teralek wrote:

Ok. This question is more to Christians and ex-Christians.

Depending on the position of Jesus, he may contradict certain notions that seek to dismiss the evil problem with free will.

Many Christians when confronted with the evil problem often say that we were given free will and this allowed us to rebel against God if we wanted to. Well given that God is omnipotent in theory he could still make us morally perfect and with free will at the same time... but that's not the point I want to make...

The point is Jesus. If Jesus is the son of God and not God himself (like some evangelical dogmas postulate) he is much like us because since we were also made by God than we are also his sons and daughters. If this is so then why could God have created a perfectly moral Jesus who couldn't or wouldn't rebel against God, BUT could not have created us in the same way?!

If we were created in the same "fashion" as Jesus we would still be living in the garden of eden.

And in this sense, do we have more free will than Jesus? how? why?

The figure of Jesus and it's traditional role in religion doesn't make any sense.

Jefferson had a similer view on the Jesus CHARACTER. But none of it makes sense in any case. Not when he argued his deism and not when you do it here now.

There is no such thing as a magical super brain with no brain, no neurons and no physical material. So arguing over a character in a book is superflous and meaningless to me. I can prove George Washington was a real person, but no sane person would believe someone else if they claimed he was the son of the all powerful pink unicorn god and George had the magic power of fartiing a real Lamborghini out of his butt.

Evolution lead to our species, not a god. Just like Posiden, the ocean god isn't real and doesn't make hurricanes. Heat and atmosphere off the African coast do that, not a god. Nothing in biology nor the universe needs a god to explain. God/s are the product of imagination, wishful thinking, credulity and fear and flawed perception.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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