The Great Virgin-Mother Isis - Ancient Mythology is not a Cheeseburger

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The Great Virgin-Mother Isis - Ancient Mythology is not a Cheeseburger

Introduction

The worship of the Egyptian goddess Isis spanned thousands of years, both in Egypt and abroad, travelling as far as Britain.(1) Throughout the vast expanse of both time and space, Isis collected and shed many qualities and attributes. Along the way, prior to the Common Era, Isis was given the title virgin on several occasions, and this article, which will present the works of both ancient and modern scholars, is an attempt to demonstrate this fact.

The main reason Isis’ virginity has become a contended issue in relatively recent times, is largely due to the fact that, mythicists have used the virginity of Isis, to present arguments from similarity, against the historical Jesus Christ. They argue that, since Isis was depicted as the great virgin-mother of Horus, whose father was the Sun-god, Osiris, (the first recorded god to die and be resurrected), prior to the Christian era, then the similarity between these two myths, indicates that the later myth (Jesus Christ) was copied from the earlier (Isis, Horus and Osiris).

At this point, I should make a brief distinction between two separate, yet related issues. Those issues being; the arguments against an historical person named Jesus, known to mythicists as, the “Jesus Myth” and those concerned with undercutting the alleged truth of the “Christ myth,” which pertains to the mythological components found in the Gospel’s, Jesus Christ. As mentioned, these issues are related, but in my humble opinion, need to be addressed upon separate grounds. The Jesus myth, although containing some overlap with the Christ myth, for the primary historical sources we have for an historical Jesus, contain mythological components, needs to be addressed using historical methods. The Christ myth on the other hand, is exclusively a matter to be assessed and examined from the point of view of comparative mythology.

The virginity of Isis predominantly concerns the Christ myth, and is the focus of this article.

Now that we have a little context, we need only establish one thing. Was Isis considered a virgin prior to the Christian era? If so, then it makes no difference by whom, or in which country (so long as that country was proximate with the fomenters of Christianity), she was given this epithet, as we will have ascertained that this virgin-mother motif existed prior to its Christian reworking, thereby establishing the probability that the earlier version was the original. To put it simply, if this motif existed prior to the Christian era, and in a place that was connected to the initial regions in which Christianity was grown, then the probability of the Christians having adopted this mythology from the true originators, is high; as virgin mothers do not grow on trees, although in the ancient, especially Hellenistic world, they did seem to!

Ancient Mythology is not a Cheeseburger!

Ancient Mythology is not a Cheeseburger, may, at first glance, seem like an odd statement to make. So, please allow me to explain. Mythology involves the careful selection of living, or fresh ingredients, which are carefully and thoughtfully woven together, folded over and over, so as to create a series of intricate and delicate layers. Finally, it is cooked slowly and tentatively over a long period of time. The result is a beautiful tapestry of symbols, ideas, philosophies and concepts that can be interpreted both subjectively and objectively, and on many different levels. Sadly, it is its complexity, which leaves many symbolically illiterate scholars, bewildered, yet belligerent in their resolve to endorse in exclusivity from the broader context, a minor literal aspect of the myth. Joseph Campbell enunciated this problem in the words of the old Buddhist parable, ‘The blind men and the elephant,’ saying:

The blind men feeling the animal's head declared, "An elephant is like a water pot"; but those at his ears, "He is like a winnowing basket;" those at his tusks, "No, indeed, he is like a plowshare;" and those at his trunk, "He is like a plow pole." There were a number feeling his belly. "Why," they cried, "he is like a storage bin!" Those feeling his legs argued that he was like pillars; those at his rectum, that he was like a mortar; those at his member, that he was like a pestle; while the remainder, at his tail, were shouting, "An elephant is like a fan." And they fought furiously among themselves with their fists, shouting and crying, "This is what an elephant is like, that is not what an elephant is like"; "This is not what an elephant is like; that is what an elephant is like." "And precisely so," then runs the moral of the Buddha,…knowing not good, knowing not evil, knowing not right, knowing not wrong, they quarrel and brawl and wrangle and strike one another with the daggers of their tongues, saying, 'This is right, that is not right'; 'This is not right, that is right.'(2)

We may contrast this complexity, to a degree at least, with theology. Theology is more like a Cheeseburger in that, it is uncreatively formed in haste, by hacking and slashing away at pieces of mythology that serve its purpose. Now, I am not saying that it doesn’t develop and change over time, but that its foundations are established uncreatively, by way of plagiarism and intellectual dishonesty. Once it has frantically slaughtered its chosen mythology, or mythologies, it smashes the goodness out of the original ingredients, grounding them into a kind of psychological mince, rendering them unrecognisable. Following this, the theology adds artificial preservatives and poisons, like doctrine, dogma and faith, to ensure that it will maintain its structural integrity (emotional appeal), over an elongated period of time. Finally, it wraps this once beautiful creature, in a shiny paper packet, sets up neon lit franchises wherever it is able, and goes into the belief-selling business!

Has this rant been merely the result of my missing breakfast this morning, or do I have a point to make!? Oh yeh, that’s right! When we analyse the mythology surrounding the goddess Isis, or Ast, as she was known to the Egyptians, we cannot gain an adequate understanding by hastily unwrapping the first version of the myth we encounter, and wolfing it down, only to spit it out all over the place, in the guise of understanding, or McUnderstanding, as it should properly be called. We need to go into it, examine the symbolism, the various epithets and their meanings, the roots of their meanings, which are quite often astronomical/astrological in nature, as well as physiological, and psychological, not forgetting that famous old Hermetic philosophy; ‘As above, so below.’ Moreover, we must not only examine the heart of the myth itself, but the entire corpus of surrounding myths, the myths which clothe the subject of the investigation. Only by doing so, may we gain an adequate understanding of the entire physiology of not only the myth itself, but the various interplays between the myth in question and its surroundings. Only then, can we begin to unlock some of the keys to understanding, just what and how a given myth was intended to be interpreted and conveyed.

Speaking on the deficiency of modern understanding as it relates to the myth, Professor Alvin Boyd Kuhn, once remarked:

That the sublime wisdom embodied in Greek myth and Bible allegory is still uninterpreted by the mind of the West to this day will prove to be the weightiest indictment of ignorance that history will present against the Christian civilization of this age. Hardly less than laughable will appear to later times the spectacle of an age morally and spiritually dominated by the precepts of a Book the meaning of which was all the while uninterpreted and unknown. The Bible and theology hold the truth of life, yet even their exponents do not themselves know what that truth is. Ecclesiasticism has the body of true wisdom, but cannot even be persuaded that the body has a soul. It possesses the rich and mighty statements of truth, but surely has not the substance of it. In other words, the Bible and theology, as well as mythology, were formulated to preserve a covert meaning, which was once the essence of all religious and philosophical endeavour, but which slipped through the hands of ignorance at an early century and has been lost to common knowledge. The modern world is thus left in the ridiculous position of clasping to its heart a traditional treasure which it prizes for its outward appearance, but has not the slightest idea of its true worth. Having received the shell of truth without its living kernel, the present age is trying to feed itself on husks, in which no intrinsic nourishment is found.(3)

So let us continue an investigation into the question of Isis’ virginity, with the above in mind.

The McIsis-$1.99: Deep Fried and Ready for Apologetics!

The following represents one of the most popular versions of the Isis myth, one which apologists love to cough up on anyone, who might ask the question; was Isis a virgin? Now, I am in no way saying that this version of the myth is erroneous, cheap, or shallow. It is a beautiful myth, rich in symbolism and metaphor, and one which certainly fits the description of mythology, furnished above. Instead, it is the manner in which it is quickly unwrapped, chewed, digested and regurgitated in exclusivity from the wealth of surrounding ingredients, which I aim to address.

This article is a bit of a read, so if you like, you can read the rest at: http://michaelsherlockauthor.blogspot.jp...gy-is.html

I would love your feedback.


References

1. Rosalie A. David. Handbook to Life in Ancient Egypt. University of Manchester. Facts on File Inc. (2003). p. 178

2. Joseph Campbell. The Masks of God – Primitive Mythology. Secker & Warburg. (1960). p. 8.

3. Alvin Boyd Kuhn. The Root of All Religion. The Theosophical Press. (1936).

You can always trust a person in search of the truth, but never the one who has found it. MANLY P. HALL


danatemporary
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Very curious ground to walk up and down

  It might be said you'd be on firmer ground if you were making a comparison more either Iconographically or Archetypally

REAL PROBLEMS can be had, frankly, Often times no real research goes into some of the opinions ; many in the board will act as if they are experts but the comments tell a vastly different story.  There are neighboring religions, people who pretend to know a lot yet oddly never seem to bring up (however many weeks roll by)  Quite strange indeed. If you want to follow this tract you best broaden the search a bit. You re betting everything on a single goddess, what if she's not what scholars would have chosen, something to give a serious consideration about

 


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danatemporary wrote:  It

danatemporary wrote:

  It might be said you'd be on firmer ground if you were making a comparison more either Iconographically or Archetypally

REAL PROBLEMS can be had, frankly, Often times no real research goes into some of the opinions ; many in the board will act as if they are experts but the comments tell a vastly different story.  There are neighboring religions, people who pretend to know a lot yet oddly never seem to bring up (however many weeks roll by)  Quite strange indeed. If you want to follow this tract you best broaden the search a bit. You re betting everything on a single goddess, what if she's not what scholars would have chosen, something to give a serious consideration about

 

 

Did you read the entire article?  I am just asking becuase, you will see that I have referenced the leading scholars (ancient and modern) in all fields related to the question, and have cited primary sources, as well.

 

After reading it, I would love your feedback

 

P.S Both Iconographically and Archetypally, as well as from the point of view of comparative mythology (realizing that CM involves the two aforementioned comparisons), taking into account anthropology.  Also, I agree, re; broad approach and in the second volume in my three volume series, 'I Am Christ,' I take this approach.

 

 

You can always trust a person in search of the truth, but never the one who has found it. MANLY P. HALL


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John Henry yet sleeps with the fishes

  Ironically Isis may not have been all that much of a Virgin, there some Xrated stuff in Egyptian religious texts few are aware of. That is true of most ancient religions. She unlike others may have kept it more by who was nailing her, the details dont paint the same picture. Read original translations from digs and a god and a goddess having sex is very plentiful. Steamy accounts of sex on the beach, sex in the underworld (whole crazy amounts of times), sex by river. Remember these are "religious txts", get the picture. Coupled with False phalluses are seen across vast geographical areas in ancient religions. Were we to go into any details, I am sure the site would lose its' N-17 rating forever. It's all part of those pesty projections  (and Anthropomorphisms ).
 
   You can actual side with any two positions  on the birth of Horus  without sounding dumb.  The late form of the legend goes on to say that Isis fanned the body with her feathers, and produced air, and that at length she caused the inert members of Osiris to move, and drew from him his essence, wherefrom she produced her child Horus. People get stumped when you commonly have a couple versions of the same myth. Usually the differences were only in a couple of details or who was attending. I almost always look to older materials. I have my books in storage or  I would gladly re-read the myth. The web isn't always the best place for information. You've people like the Spiritists of the early last century, theosophists, ancient astronauts proponents , and modern day wiccans. And They make web-research an absolutely difficult chore. You get information that is often incorrect or some crack-pots radical revision. I find the easiest web tool is google books. Scholars are quoted, if you get a few key-phrases used in scholarship you can bypass alot of the harm theosophists and modern pagans have  plagued us with. Outside of Hindu texts these little explorations are not laborious. The information is there and  to tease it out is a matter of checking into scholarly materials,  not the task it sounds.  This will come out awkward but it is due to a lack of context. Off topic but as an example of a sort is something I am right in the middle of. I found the phrase "In the House of Destiny" it opened up key details because it bypasses all the fluff. With that phrase alone I found details to a "Slaughtered a god". Wikipedia is okay but not always. By looking at phrases and names seen only in decent texts, I get the added detail of "[and] together with his rationality" Ninut (another name for mami) mixed the clay . . . It frees you from being spoon fed. It is rather and almost enjoyable. Polytheistic religions were often surprising. The numbers of deities are staggering. For your purposes I dont think you've the time but it is interesting all the same. After saying all this, I would be wrong not to tell you most christians have almost no knowledge of other religions especially not those of the Ancient Near East. Cursory information can put you light-years ahead of them. I almost didn't want to say it but it might not be as fun a thing for you as for me, only to be fair. If this is hard to follow it is due to the fact, I know what I'm talking about (ha,  ha,  ha).  As for Isis being a virgin, that is my central concern prior to the christian ERA. That is easily determined in looking at the source myths themselves. For the husband's  new or fashioned phallus to  have  been something akin to the removable false beard; good thing he wasnt about to sire any offspring or nothing. No trap but wondering why you would not look elsewhere ?


        [img=http://img209.imagevenue.com/loc475/th_760579235_virgin_really_virgin_really___122_475lo.jpg]        
    

 

John Henry yet sleeps with the fishes  (forgive the humour) I remember the basic outline of the myth and though it may hurt my creditability but Isis is obviously going to be compared to Mary as seen in so much Iconographical depictions.  And  I realize the caption may detract a whole lot but I like to joke (character defect no doubt)

>


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.

michaelsherlock wrote:

Introduction

The worship of the Egyptian goddess Isis spanned thousands of years, both in Egypt and abroad, travelling as far as Britain.(1) Throughout the vast expanse of both time and space, Isis collected and shed many qualities and attributes. Along the way, prior to the Common Era, Isis was given the title virgin on several occasions, and this article, which will present the works of both ancient and modern scholars, is an attempt to demonstrate this fact.

...

This article is a bit of a read, so if you like, you can read the rest at: http://michaelsherlockauthor.blogspot.jp...gy-is.html

I would love your feedback.

As I have pointed out many times there is no evidence of explicit monotheism until after Islam makes the first explicit statement to that effect. There was the Judean Yahweh cult and a temple to Astarte on what the West calls the Temple Mount until Rome rebuilt the city under Hadrian in the early 2nd c. AD. Of course they were polytheists. It was the priest-kings of the Yahweh cult who ran the show. The women certainly worshipped Astarte.

The Greeks who created the Septuagint drew on many traditions for inspiration much as fiction writers do today and with no greater depth or intent. The same types of gods are found all through the indo-European parts of the world. The local Yahweh cult priests had their literature created for them. The Greeks did not do so for the women and their goddess.

There is more on the made-in-alexandria link in my sig.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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The comments thus far are a cue ..

The comments thus far are a cue to start over ..

   There is good and bad news. At best you are only going to able to  whittle it down to no less than three Marian candidates.  What I'm saying will possibly stir up a hornets' nest,  but the Good news is  three is a very finite number .   Start with what sparked the initial inquiry. As if the Virgin birth was not enough. Remember what the official position of the Roman Catholics became, Jesus' mother Mary remained a virgin for her entire life (no snickering). A concept not shared throughout Christendom. The Roman Catholic Church holds the perpetual virginity of Mary. At least in this country, there is a growing number of christians who have renounced their tradition (belief in Mary's perpetual virginity). Their Church views Mary as "the Mother of God" (the christ-bearer) and "Queen of Heaven." Sounds like titles to me Smiling

 


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Mission Accomplished

danatemporary wrote:
The comments thus far are a cue to start over .. Start with what sparked the initial inquiry. As if the Virgin birth was not enough. Remember what the official position of the Roman Catholics became, Jesus' mother Mary remained a virgin for her entire life (no snickering). A concept not shared throughout Christendom. The Roman Catholic Church holds the perpetual virginity of Mary. At least in this country, there is a growing number of christians who have renounced their tradition (belief in Mary's perpetual virginity). Their Church views Mary as "the Mother of God" (the christ-bearer) and "Queen of Heaven." Sounds like titles to me Smiling

 

As I wrote the article to establish that Isis was worshiped as a Virgin-Mother Goddess, both in and outside of Egypt, and provided both ancient and modern scholarship along with primary sources to show this, I see no need in re-doing the article.  It has achieved its purpose.  Thanks anyway.


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Your whole basis .. is based on a confused error

 Your whole basis .. is based on a confused error:

Michael Sherlock wrote:

danatemporary wrote:
The comments thus far are a cue to start over .. Start with what sparked the initial inquiry. As if the Virgin birth was not enough. Remember what the official position of the Roman Catholics became, Jesus' mother Mary remained a virgin for her entire life (no snickering). A concept not shared throughout Christendom. The Roman Catholic Church holds the perpetual virginity of Mary. At least in this country, there is a growing number of christians who have renounced their tradition (belief in Mary's perpetual virginity). Their Church views Mary as "the Mother of God" (the christ-bearer) and "Queen of Heaven." Sounds like titles to me Smiling

 

As I wrote the article to establish that Isis was worshiped as a Virgin-Mother Goddess, both in and outside of Egypt, and provided both ancient and modern scholarship along with primary sources to show this, I see no need in re-doing the article.  It has achieved its purpose.  Thanks anyway.

              With this kind of a controversial theory, you mustnt be allowed to make such an outlandish suggestion and conjecture without unbiased support. None to be had, I'm afraid. All it has done is indicate a pure ignorance and zero fact checking.  If anyone heads over to FreeThought Nation, The founder of the site as written books  exposing you to error.  In one book she has co-written , within the first 50 pages, (approx. to the page), a pyramid text was the main justification  of conflating  the goddess Hathor with the wife of Osiris. Thanks to this, along with other errors, you wrongly end up with the 'Virginity of Isis'. Making it easy for anyone with a seach-engine to expose as 'false' (and undermining this boards position, in the process). If you are not understanding  try the word 'nanny', enough said.

 

 

 

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Cheeseburger!

danatemporary wrote:

 Your whole basis .. is based on a confused error:

Michael Sherlock wrote:

danatemporary wrote:
The comments thus far are a cue to start over .. Start with what sparked the initial inquiry. As if the Virgin birth was not enough. Remember what the official position of the Roman Catholics became, Jesus' mother Mary remained a virgin for her entire life (no snickering). A concept not shared throughout Christendom. The Roman Catholic Church holds the perpetual virginity of Mary. At least in this country, there is a growing number of christians who have renounced their tradition (belief in Mary's perpetual virginity). Their Church views Mary as "the Mother of God" (the christ-bearer) and "Queen of Heaven." Sounds like titles to me Smiling

 

As I wrote the article to establish that Isis was worshiped as a Virgin-Mother Goddess, both in and outside of Egypt, and provided both ancient and modern scholarship along with primary sources to show this, I see no need in re-doing the article.  It has achieved its purpose.  Thanks anyway.

              With this kind of a controversial theory, you mustnt be allowed to make such an outlandish suggestion and conjecture without unbiased support. None to be had, I'm afraid. All it has done is indicate a pure ignorance and zero fact checking.  If anyone heads over to FreeThought Nation, The founder of the site as written books  exposing you to error.  In one book she has co-written , within the first 50 pages, (approx. to the page), a pyramid text was the main justification  of conflating  the goddess Hathor with the wife of Osiris. Thanks to this, along with other errors, you wrongly end up with the 'Virginity of Isis'. Making it easy for anyone with a seach-engine to expose as 'false' (and undermining this boards position, in the process). If you are not understanding  try the word 'nanny', enough said.

 

 

 

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-

 

 

 

 

 

I was tempted to just reply with one word, 'Cheeseburger.'  But I fetl you may misunderstand the point.  If you are referring to the Pyramid text discussed by Dr G. Johannes Botterweck, you may need to do a little more reading and fact checking.  I would recommend you base your assertions on more solid scholarship rather than internet, Wikipedia searches,  buy a few books, specifically ones written by scholars and well researched authors, like Acharya, who, although her and I have had our differences in the past on other issues, do see eye to eye on this one.  This may be because the facts tend to lean toward this point of view.  Also, I would highly recommend you read 'Christ in Egypt,' as it has over 2300 footnotes, most of which are citations from highly credentialed scholars. 

 

Whilst the Pyramid text in question, does not specifically mention Isis, it was found in a temple dedicated to her and the epithets, ''protectress and mother of the King,' match Isis' somewhat complex profile better than any other goddess.

Finally, finishing your opinion with the words, 'enough said,' only works on unwitting and obedient children, and I am neither!  It takes real research, real facts and proper scholarship to make me consider a point of view, so if you have any of this, please feel free to offer it, as so far, all you have done is make wild assertions with no authority, but your word, again satisfactory when dealing with children, but you will have to produce more than you have to help me see your point.  You could be right, but thus far, I have seen nothing.

 

Goodluck with your research here is a link you might find useful: amazon.com


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Cheeseburger!

I was tempted to just reply with one word, 'Cheeseburger.' But I fetl you may misunderstand the point. If you are referring to the Pyramid text discussed by Dr G. Johannes Botterweck, you may need to do a little more reading and fact checking. I would recommend you base your assertions on more solid scholarship rather than internet, Wikipedia searches, buy a few books, specifically ones written by scholars and well researched authors, like Acharya, who, although her and I have had our differences in the past on other issues, do see eye to eye on this one. This may be because the facts tend to lean toward this point of view. Also, I would highly recommend you read 'Christ in Egypt,' as it has over 2300 footnotes, most of which are citations from highly credentialed scholars.

 

Whilst the Pyramid text in question, does not specifically mention Isis, it was found in a temple dedicated to her and the epithets, ''protectress and mother of the King,' match Isis' somewhat complex profile better than any other goddess.

Finally, finishing your opinion with the words, 'enough said,' only works on unwitting and obedient children, and I am neither! It takes real research, real facts and proper scholarship to make me consider a point of view, so if you have any of this, please feel free to offer it, as so far, all you have done is make wild assertions with no authority, but your word, again satisfactory when dealing with children, but you will have to produce more than you have to help me see your point. You could be right, but thus far, I have seen nothing.

 

Goodluck with your research here is a link you might find useful: amazon.com


Brian37
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Guys, just like a character

Guys, just like a character in a fictional novel, one character in any ancient myth were often hypocritically depicted doing one thing in one scene, then doing the opposite in another. Just like we can find Jesus in the bible saying one thing, then saying something conflicting in another part. Just like politicians today say one thing one day, and say another thing another day.

Isis was both depicted as pure and motherly TEMPLE OF LUXOR, and in other places is depicted as having sex with the dismembered penis Osirus and still other places the full body of Osirus. And Ra or "Rey" is the sun god. In the Egyptian book of the dead, Horus sat at the right hand of Osirus under Ra in judgment of the dead. It may have been the case that Osirus was Rey and not Rey at the same time, depending upon the story. Just like Jesus fans try to square Jesus being both a god and not a god at the same time.

So the truth of the depictions of Isis is not either or but BOTH pure and not pure. Because consistency has never been part of religion, not then, not now.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Levi-Strauss

Brian37 wrote:

Guys, just like a character in a fictional novel, one character in any ancient myth were often hypocritically depicted doing one thing in one scene, then doing the opposite in another. Just like we can find Jesus in the bible saying one thing, then saying something conflicting in another part. Just like politicians today say one thing one day, and say another thing another day.

Isis was both depicted as pure and motherly TEMPLE OF LUXOR, and in other places is depicted as having sex with the dismembered penis Osirus and still other places the full body of Osirus. And Ra or "Rey" is the sun god. In the Egyptian book of the dead, Horus sat at the right hand of Osirus under Ra in judgment of the dead. It may have been the case that Osirus was Rey and not Rey at the same time, depending upon the story. Just like Jesus fans try to square Jesus being both a god and not a god at the same time.

So the truth of the depictions of Isis is not either or but BOTH pure and not pure. Because consistency has never been part of religion, not then, not now.

 

 

 

Well said.  It is like Levi-Strauss observed with regards to the function of mythology.  It's role can be the mediation, resolution and explanation of duality.


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Sorry Michael you are still around

 

   Sorry Micheal you are still around

:

 

 


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Didnt you say "Virgin" or indicate that to us ?

Spoon fed is spoon fed Buddy !!

 

Brian37 wrote:

Guys, just like a character in a fictional novel, one character in any ancient myth were often hypocritically depicted doing one thing in one scene, then doing the opposite in another. Just like we can find Jesus in the bible saying one thing, then saying something conflicting in another part. Just like politicians today say one thing one day, and say another thing another day.

Isis was both depicted as pure and motherly TEMPLE OF LUXOR, and in other places is depicted as having sex with the dismembered penis Osirus and still other places the full body of Osirus. And Ra or "Rey" is the sun god. In the Egyptian book of the dead, Horus sat at the right hand of Osirus under Ra in judgment of the dead. It may have been the case that Osirus was Rey and not Rey at the same time, depending upon the story. Just like Jesus fans try to square Jesus being both a god and not a god at the same time.

So the truth of the depictions of Isis is not either or but BOTH pure and not pure. Because consistency has never been part of religion, not then, not now.

 

 

   Yes I see this "pure or not pure" in other areas of the Ancient Near East. In the Mesopotanian  Epic of Gilgamesh for instance, if memory serves, there is a goddess who was depicted as pure. But, Why is she propositioning Gilgamesh then?   No lack of subtlety or finesse is required (when trying to understand).

  __Obviously  none of us  have read the pyramid texts . . .

      No matter  what he'd have us believe. Initially, Michael  was filling his head full of errors. And has been hanging out a lot at a particular website. Where most of this wrong information comes from to begin with. Yes, this is an assumption. But, It fits. The site's high Mucky-Mucks wrote a book with the theory about the Christ myth being founded out of Egypt (as she puts it). How does that related ? From skimming, as far as I can tell, she's made the argument that Hathor and Isis are pretty much the same deity, as she asserts . Confused by a pyramid text, she ran across (I mentioned). I suspect this is all  to make  a stronger case  for a Marian parallel  is all,. The idea nonetheless is non-endorsable by ANY reputable experts.  Moreover, Michael, along with everyone else, need ONLY  examine 'the type' of deity Isis was. Then try to determine 'the type' of deity Hathor was. Even at that level, it becomes impossible to hold this theory without being leveled by a mountain of evidence to the contrary.  Or even looking at the animals that were associated with the two should have been enough not to suggest such a thing.Although Hathor and Sekhmet didnt share the same, so I shouldn't use it in any case.  I am not about to take the approach of buying the book faithfully covering G. Johannes Botterweck in hopes of citing nor disproving.  Little short of cash; and why not look at the myths, in the first place ? What they say should be a guide to any comparison(s).  Let  the myths  do  the  talking  instead of playing games with authors

                      >  Why am I weighing-in? Because, You remember what Jean used to call me, early on? "Witch-girl".  Like I'd ever have a picture of 'the goddess of the month' on my walls.  The price of my gamer-Avatar.

You know, For someone who claims not be a witch. Dont I give off this impression of knowing an awful lot about goddesses ?  :¬

( Laugh with  me )

 

 

  

Quote:
the Pyramid text discussed by Dr G. Johannes Botterweck, you may need to do a little more reading and fact checking. I would recommend you base your assertions on more solid scholarship

  Unimpressed by what you are saying Michael.  NO matter your source or in your case  sources.   You've given  no indication  of any knowledge of this. You've ponied this to many boards, with no one questioning the reasoning of the experts' minds.  Out of the four authors you've cited in total (information source the two other Threads).  Try an author not out to prove something.  Look at the myths themselves.  The importance is  in  being  correct or not.  Comparative Religious works are always welcome but the achilles heel often times is groupings. Details can be left out entirely when using these tools. Even in the minds of people  used to making comparisons.

 

:

 

 

:

 

 


danatemporary
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Patterns for myths is the wrong analysis tool.

  Patterns for myths is the wrong analysis tool

 

  Recently a theist pointed out that he didnt know what I meant by a thing.  Assuming people do not know the difference between a standard work and a Comparative Religious work. What difference would primarily  using those resources make ? It is using the wrong set of tools for a given task, in short,. I will use Joseph Campbell because he is the most famous and well known (with popular works like The HERO with a Thousand faces or The Power of Myth). If you've  ever  listened to his audio lecture series.  He would talk about a Sumerian Myth in one sentence and a Native American Myth of the Hopi in the next. The last person you'd  go to for a Monograph (so to speak)  or exhaustive  analysis of  'an individual' Deity. This I mean by 'wrong analysis tools'. There is nothing "humble" about the OP's remarks. Rites involving proscribed periods of sexual abstinence in the Isis Cult do not change the details of the myth in the slightest. And be honest, A introductory statement isn't exactly documenting a fundamental shift in the mind's of the followers over time.  (All indications were there was no fundamental shift insisting Virginity,  not even in the Roman Isis Cult). That said.  You finally have something to research for discussion,   so  get to it.   You are not done. 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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Michael s.

Michael S.

You said, 
The main reason Isis’ virginity has become a contended issue in relatively recent times, is largely due to the fact that, mythicists have used the virginity of Isis, to present arguments from similarity, against the historical Jesus Christ. They argue that, since Isis was depicted as the great virgin-mother of Horus, whose father was the Sun-god, Osiris, (the first recorded god to die and be resurrected), prior to the Christian era, then the similarity between these two myths, indicates that the later myth (Jesus Christ) was copied from the earlier (Isis, Horus and Osiris). 

Your statement is a presupposition based on Egyptian 
 Uneducated mythicists.

The ancient Egyptian records also do not help, because they also became Corrupt by corrupted Egyptian priest. 

The cult of Isis is far from virgin 
Origin and more like the origin of prostitution . 

Horus had a human father King Osiris . 
Jesus did not. 
King Horus was wealthy and a warrior.
Jesus was not.  

Read: 

Newton's Revised History of Ancient Kingdoms - A Complete Chronology by Sir Isaac Newton, 

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


danatemporary
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: ) Jimenezj

  ..  the similarity between these two myths, indicates that the later myth (Jesus Christ) was copied from the earlier (Isis, Horus and Osiris), Michael stated.

 Jimenezi said, 'Your statement is a presupposition based on Egyptian 
 Uneducated mythicists.

The ancient Egyptian records also do not help, because they also became Corrupt by corrupted Egyptian priest. 

The cult of Isis is far from virgin 
Origin and more like the origin of prostitution.'

 

  Hi Jimenezj  -

  T0 : Jimenezj

  The mystics remarks is one of the more puzzling, I wont waste your time in what my first thoughts were. What is the more important with me is the faithful finding(s) of its' distinctiveness . Nothing incorrect about Jimenezj's characterization of the Isis cult later on in time. No grounds for even a accidental conflation of a chase unmarried Virgin goddess like Athena with the Roman conception of Isis.  Cringeworthy to watch people's basic ignorance to allow a person to be given a "blank page".

 

 

 


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danatemporary wrote:
You can actual side with any two positions  on the birth of Horus  without sounding dumb.  The late form of the legend goes on to say that Isis fanned the body with her feathers, and produced air, and that at length she caused the inert members of Osiris to move, and drew from him his essence, wherefrom she produced her child Horus. People get stumped when you commonly have a couple versions of the same myth. Usually the differences were only in a couple of details or who was attending.


One of these days I might become systematic enough to have a few detailed examples but not yet.

But what I have learned is that particular god stories in the same place can change over time and be different in different places at the same time. The popular mythology references are simplified to avoid dealing with this. In our dogmatic, burn the heretic tradition this does not sound credible. However without dogmatic views and ready stakes I presume different stories could exist at the same place at the same time but most likely city loyalties (the only kind that existed) presumably lead to a local version.

As to worrying about variant details, ever seen a Christian bothered by variations among the gospels? Why should people care before dogma was invented?

The ancient did not view true in the same way we do. Our true is a video of the events. Their true was more like the best story about events regardless of relation to the facts. History of the Greeks was the most desirable narrative for instilling virtue which is the reason the Greeks held the Illiad in such high regard. It expressed the desirable Greek virtues and that was all that was important.

To this case different narratives of Isis, Osiris and Horus need a date/time and location stamp and with that different variations will make sense. Arkies found different stories at different digs in Egypt, obviously from different places and times. So the stories are different.

And it was Hollywood which gave me the modern name for what they were doing. When Hollywood does a remake they reimagine a story. Compare the original and remake of movies, Wrath of Titans is a current example. Someone gets the idea not just to elaborate the Isis myth but to take a fresh look at it. If he does a good job it becomes the popular version.

And this is what I extend to infant heroes being saved while floating down a river. It is a local reimagining. Consider the original Le Femme Nikita. I'm a reprobate prefer the French original but Hollywood made an American version. Hollywood is not in the midst of its third reimagining of the story in a TV series. (It sucks. The second was bearable. Only the TV original was half way worth watching, Xena with guns.)

The complementary way to look at it is there are a limited number of god themes. For deification, pick one and see how it works for your designated dead inspiration. Heracles and Jesus the same in conquest of death but different ways of getting there.

As for the god myths changing take a serious look at Jesus over time. The earliest image is a teacher against the existing false order. After the priests take over Byzantium and Rome he is a conqueror spreading the religion. After that succeeds he becomes a ruler, the guardian of the established order. After the religious wars that kick priests out of government he becomes a modern nice guy whose only concern is peace. There are at least three distinct Jesus themes over 2000 years. Why be surprised with Isis having two?

So there are some celibate stories, what other kind of stories are you going to tell kids? And for adults a mess of sex stories? The best stories win and pornography is a very popular kind of fiction. And then there is the male fantasy of laying virgins so some of the virgin goddess stories are not just for kids.

 

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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danatemporary wrote:
The comments thus far are a cue to start over ..

   There is good and bad news. At best you are only going to able to  whittle it down to no less than three Marian candidates.  What I'm saying will possibly stir up a hornets' nest,  but the Good news is  three is a very finite number .   Start with what sparked the initial inquiry. As if the Virgin birth was not enough. Remember what the official position of the Roman Catholics became, Jesus' mother Mary remained a virgin for her entire life (no snickering). A concept not shared throughout Christendom. The Roman Catholic Church holds the perpetual virginity of Mary. At least in this country, there is a growing number of christians who have renounced their tradition (belief in Mary's perpetual virginity). Their Church views Mary as "the Mother of God" (the christ-bearer) and "Queen of Heaven." Sounds like titles to me Smiling

 

Different stories existing at the same time for Mary and Isis. And it does not bother Mary believers. Why would it have bothered Isis believers?

And only three? There are a raft of Christian group who do not consider Jesus a god. I doubt they would hold Mary to have been other than having been knocked up by Joseph. And those who do not consider Jesus to have ever been a real human probably could not care less about the details of Mary's sex life.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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michael sherlock wrote:
buy a few books, specifically ones written by scholars and well researched authors, like Acharya, who, although her and I have had our differences in the past on other issues, do see eye to eye on this one.

I have posted to her website. Pardon but I could not escape the feeling of love-struck teenage boys fawning over an older woman.

I have not pursued her detailed claims however I have learned to restrict my research into all claims regarding ancient material to the original translations and publications up to some professional standards particularly regarding Egypt. Her sweeping generalities are lacking in specific source material. Enough said.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Jimenezj wrote:
Michael S. You said,  The main reason Isis’ virginity has become a contended issue in relatively recent times, is largely due to the fact that, mythicists have used the virginity of Isis, to present arguments from similarity, against the historical Jesus Christ. They argue that, since Isis was depicted as the great virgin-mother of Horus, whose father was the Sun-god, Osiris, (the first recorded god to die and be resurrected), prior to the Christian era, then the similarity between these two myths, indicates that the later myth (Jesus Christ) was copied from the earlier (Isis, Horus and Osiris).  Your statement is a presupposition based on Egyptian   Uneducated mythicists. The ancient Egyptian records also do not help, because they also became Corrupt by corrupted Egyptian priest.  The cult of Isis is far from virgin  Origin and more like the origin of prostitution .  Horus had a human father King Osiris .  Jesus did not.  King Horus was wealthy and a warrior. Jesus was not.   Read:  Newton's Revised History of Ancient Kingdoms - A Complete Chronology by Sir Isaac Newton, 

It would be good were you to actually learn something. You suggest it is modern. The few surviving writings about the cults that appear to be related to Christianity ALL include observations that it is nothing new and within the variations of the gods already accepted by Rome. They also observe the claim of uniqueness is unexplainable as it is simply untrue.

To this day you believers have not expressed any essential uniqueness that differs from "the name is different" which existed back when it was getting started. And if you think there was a difference cite the Epistle passages which show something unique.

Doing all the same things but the reason was different is not an essential difference. Dying for a cause makes a good story, the cause is fungible.

What you believers cannot address is why a REAL god did not do something entirely different from all the invented gods. How did the people who invented the gods KNOW what the real god would do when he showed up?

This is a very old question. Back in the day the answer was The devil inspired it to mislead the faithful. Care to take a shot at a credible answer?

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Jimenezj wrote:
The ancient Egyptian records also do not help, because they also became Corrupt by corrupted Egyptian priest.
 

Would you care to produce the physical evidence of this corruption? Keep in mind that you invent it to salvage your belief is not evidence.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Good Points

 I think you have raised some very rational points in your replies.  From what you have said, it seems like you, unlike our witch friend, have actually studied mythology.  Is this the case?  In particular, have you heard of Professor Elizabeth Vandiver? 

 

Good to know there are some rational people, on the rationalresponders forum.

You can always trust a person in search of the truth, but never the one who has found it. MANLY P. HALL


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The answer is monotheism in the bigining , what
Came next was polytheism , Apostacy, imposters and copycats.
Read and study genesis 4. Apostasy is seen in the
Bigining and runs across history. As for corrupted
Egyptian history, read the book I stated. Ancient
Egyptian historians testify of this corruption . You can
Find the book at amazon.com.

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


A_Nony_Mouse
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Jimenezj wrote:
The answer is monotheism in the bigining , what Came next was polytheism , Apostacy, imposters and copycats. Read and study genesis 4. Apostasy is seen in the Bigining and runs across history. As for corrupted Egyptian history, read the book I stated. Ancient Egyptian historians testify of this corruption . You can Find the book at amazon.com.

ALL archaeological and anthrological evidence shows polytheism is the oldest and the norm. You are free to present physical evidence in support of your assertion. If you do not have physical evidence you have only bullshit.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


Jimenezj
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The archives of Ebla
By Archyologist Dr. Giovanni Pettinato 

Point to a monotheism origin .

Also the book o stated earlier also points to
Monotheism origin.

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


A_Nony_Mouse
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Jimenezj wrote:
The archives of Ebla By Archyologist Dr. Giovanni Pettinato  Point to a monotheism origin . Also the book o stated earlier also points to Monotheism origin.

His archaeology by sensationalism is no longer taken seriously. Even if it were the culture of Ebla is clearly polytheist.

For future reference, "go read a book" does not constitute presenting physical evidence. You present and defend the physical evidence contained in the book. This requirement at times results in believers actually reading the material they cite so authoritatively. Usually not. They will pull all kinds of hystrionics to avoid actually reading what they claim is conclusive.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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A Simple Question

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Jimenezj wrote:
The archives of Ebla By Archyologist Dr. Giovanni Pettinato  Point to a monotheism origin . Also the book o stated earlier also points to Monotheism origin.

His archaeology by sensationalism is no longer taken seriously. Even if it were the culture of Ebla is clearly polytheist.

For future reference, "go read a book" does not constitute presenting physical evidence. You present and defend the physical evidence contained in the book. This requirement at times results in believers actually reading the material they cite so authoritatively. Usually not. They will pull all kinds of hystrionics to avoid actually reading what they claim is conclusive.

 

What is the primary scholarly consensus on the issue?  Answer this question honestly, and I think the matter can be ascertained within the realms of probability, anyway.


Jimenezj
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You won't take my word for it, so why not find
Out for yourself and read the book in a library
Or buy it?

Here is some more physical evidence.

1. Archeologist Dr. Stephen Langdon And
Original monotheism in Babylonian 
Inscription . Semitic mythology:by S. Langdon 

2. Anthropologist Dr. Schmidt: Origin and growth of religion facts and theories  

3. Babel and Bible: Three Lectures On the Significance of Assyriological Research for Religion
Friedrich Delitzsch

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


A_Nony_Mouse
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Jimenezj wrote:
You won't take my word for it, so why not find Out for yourself and read the book in a library Or buy it? Here is some more physical evidence. 1. Archeologist Dr. Stephen Langdon And Original monotheism in Babylonian  Inscription . Semitic mythology:by S. Langdon  2. Anthropologist Dr. Schmidt: Origin and growth of religion facts and theories   3. Babel and Bible: Three Lectures On the Significance of Assyriological Research for Religion Friedrich Delitzsch

To repeat present the physical evidence. Do not play the stupid, go read a book, game. It is not a matter of taking your word for anything as you have presented nothing but book titles without the slightest reason to pursue them save some nebulous implication by of their contents.

If you can not present the physical evidence they contain then it means you have not read them and you blowing smoke out your ass. Present the physical evidence and stop playing games. You know what it is or you do not.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml