Just a Theist stumbling into this den of iniquity...

Oneskepticalguy
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Just a Theist stumbling into this den of iniquity...

Just Kidding about the Den of iniquity. I am a Theist but please dont pigeon hole me into a "Bible thumping young earth Creationist" because Im not, so put any pitchforks away. Here is where I am coming from. Overall, I actually believe religion has done more to manipulate and distort the message of Christ than all the Atheists who ever existed combined!

So therefore, Im not here to debate the Bible nor am I here trying to convert anyone. I take the stance of Show me God working in your life or shut the hell up! BTW, I think its foolish for people to push their Bible as the ultimate authority onto a group of people who think its just a comic book for adults, especially when that group more than likely knows more about the Bible than they do. Truth be told, I am skeptical of some of the tenets in the Bible and I view that as healthy because Im not one who is simply going to believe and swallow whole just because Im suppose to. Also, I would never intentionally put myself into a position of being a hypocrite pushing a "Do as I say, not what I do" theology.  As a result, I have kept an open mind and have learned a great deal from my atheist friends. Perhaps my greatest lesson learned has been to protect the freedoms and rights of those who do not believe, to support them to live their life to the fullest without any judgment or religion imposing on it. I try to remember first and formost that we are called to love all, not to judge or suppress all!  

I believe in science and evolution, but just not an evolution driven by "random mutation." Overall, I find that Science does not threaten or conflict with my Bible beliefs and actually support it. 

So my desire is to simply engage and try to understand the other side of the friendly lively discussion while sipping on a nice single malt scotch. 

 

Peace out!

 


Atheistextremist
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Welcome, Skepticalguy

 

skeptical theists are a delightful change from the literalists we often encounter. I agree that protecting the right to opinion and doing so mutually and simultaneously is the central plank of social integrity.

Can't help thinking the world lost something when the thinkers of old were crushed under a tidal wave of Augustinian dogma. 

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


EXC
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So how do you decide what

So how do you decide what parts of the Bible are true, which are false or can not be known? How did you come to believe the things you do about the nature of the universe, such as there is a god, afterlife, soul, etc...

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


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Chuckle

 

it's all about finding the subjective path to 'true' christianity...

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Welcome among us!So you're a

Welcome among us!

So you're a theist, but not a typical one. What does your religion mean to you now? Do you keep practicing it? For example, my "religion" recommends me to translate and publish some articles, mostly on global events, politics, economy and so on, it also allows me to participate in group meditations. It doesn't force me, I force myself to overcome laziness. That's what I practice. Do you have any such a routine, or you use it as a philosophy? 

I can agree with you about Christianity. From my outsider's point of view it looks like the first Christians intended it to be a free socialist hippie life style. But then it was taken over by strong men like Paul of Tarsus (a soldier) and emperors like Constantin. They put a structure into it, hierarchy, offices and eventually it grew into the whole circus that Jesus tried to avoid and criticized in cases of Pharisees, Gentile verbose prayers and so on. That is, an organized religion with a command structure tall as the tower of Babylon, all these funny hats and golden robes between you and God. And they made up the doctrines, so even Evangelicals believe in most of them. In some ways Evangelicals are even worse than Catholics, because they're free to make up anything they want, so in some cases they degenerated into downright tribal shamanic practices.

Oneskepticalguy wrote:

I believe in science and evolution, but just not an evolution driven by "random mutation." Overall, I find that Science does not threaten or conflict with my Bible beliefs and actually support it. 

Well, technically the evolution is driven by random mutation, 90% of mutations do nothing with our chances of survival. It's a random driving engine, butd the environment decides if the "mutants" have anywhere to go and survive. So it's not entirely random either.

Some Christians realize, that evolution and common descent of species conflicts with Biblical account of creation. If we evolved from animal ancestry, then we couldn't have been created in a couple days by God in Eden along with all the species. This means no paradise, no magic tree and talking snake, no eternal inheritable sin and no need of salvation from that sin. They realize it makes a moot point out of the Bible.

You have no problem with that?

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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 Hey all,

Sorry I didn’t get back sooner but my Porn takes precedent over you guys! Ha Ha Ha

@ EXC

My belief in the existence of god first came from science, then confirmed by personal experiencesAt this point the path I am on is to simply follow only the words of Christ just like the very first Christians who didn’t have any bible to reference. I find that more often than not, religion has misinterpreted and have manipulated scripture, so I trust no one. A general rule of thumb for me is, if the interpretation of scripture makes God come off as a trivial, pitiful, tyrannical, condemning, judgmental asshole, then I will reject it untill further notice! So far, I find that religions interpretations are incorrect! Quite frankly, just focusing my walk on the words spoken by Jesus keeps me more than busy dealing with the plank in my own eye, to worry about someone elses splinter.


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 @Luminon,

 

@Luminon,I don’t have a religion other than to follow only the teachings of Christ. Its just between me and god! My “church” consist of working with a group of people from all different walks of life and beliefs to make 1000 breakfast burritos and passing them out to the hundreds of homeless who line up for them every Sunday. The only preaching is “God loves you” and hand them a Burrito. Give me that free socialist hippie life style over the B.S is observed in the churches today. Example: there is a mega church that spent 25 million dollars on a building. Hell, that could of went to the poor instead and almost eliminate the homeless situation in our city. That would of done a lot more good to spread the “good news” than getting a new building. So yeah, I am totally against institutionalized religion.Science in the last 50 years has evidenced that evolution is anything but random. (It will make for great debate) I believe that Evolution and common descent does not conflict with the Bible (unless you’re a YEC). Regarding YEC, I find it hard to believe that God would be a trickster and make the universe seem to be billions of years old. Although the theory of “random evolution” does not conflict with my beliefs, I find it hard to believe that God would simply create life randomly, but then intervene in the lives of his random creation, especially when God had a goal in mind to “lets make man in our image.”          

 


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WelcomeI tried to go this

Welcome

I tried to go this route when first facing my doubts about the bible. And if it works for you-that's cool.

Since you seem to accept that the bible contains more than it's share of poo, how do you accept any of it's credibility of what Jesus' teachings really were. Or are just the ideals themselves good enough for you?

I'm sure you know where I am going with this. - Do you believe in a hell at all?   if not, why do you need Jesus?  if you do believe in hell, why would you want the God of Abraham?

Christianity seems to be your default religion.  Isn't love and uncertainty of a beginning and life after death good enough?

For me the bible became kinda like a pal I once had. He was ok to be around, but it didn't take long to realize that he was full of shit, and lies just seemed to spew out of his mouth.

The more lies i heard-the more i hated them.  How could I believe anything he said?  I set him aside as I did the bible.

God is a fantasy. The God of Abraham is a lie. Anyone claiming to be the son of the God of Abraham is a liar.  Anyone telling stories of this God or his son is spreading lies even if their intent is not malicious.

But hey, some people don't set those kinds of pals aside. They just shrug off their bullshit. If you're cool with liars then that's all good.

Welcome again. Good to have ya'.  It's good to have theists around that didn't come here just to throw poo at us.

 

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


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Oneskepticalguy

Oneskepticalguy wrote:

Regarding YEC, I find it hard to believe that God would be a trickster and make the universe seem to be billions of years old. Although the theory of “random evolution” does not conflict with my beliefs, I find it hard to believe that God would simply create life randomly, but then intervene in the lives of his random creation, especially when God had a goal in mind to “lets make man in our image.”                   

Nice to see a thoughtful Christian again. You're right, God as a trickster creating a fake universe would be a true father of lies Smiling

I hope you don't mind some heavy questions. How do you tackle the problem of evil, existence of eternal fiery Hell and so on? Is it another piece of hateful theology to be rejected? In my opinion certainly, but as you know, it's quite a central point of Christianity, so I've got to ask.

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


Oneskepticalguy
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Nice to see a thoughtful

Nice to see a thoughtful Christian again. You're right, God as a trickster creating a fake universe would be a true father of lies Smiling

I hope you don't mind some heavy questions. How do you tackle the problem of evil, existence of eternal fiery Hell and so on? Is it another piece of hateful theology to be rejected? In my opinion certainly, but as you know, it's quite a central point of Christianity, so I've got to ask.

 

Well basically I believe that Jesus is an alien and those who believe in him have evolved a God gene and will be beamed up into a spaceship while those who were not so evolved will  be naturally selected for extermination as inferior breeds and forced down a laundry shoot into the fiery center of the earth to ensure complete extinction of an inferior human ….Just Kidding! There are basically two choices.  To believe that God is too good to damn humans, or to believe that they’re too good to be damned by God… I choose number one. I cant see how a all merciful God will not forgive his enemies when we little humans are called to do so and do so!  I believe that when we project God to be vengeful and retributive, we pervert the divine image.The idea of eternal hellfire demeans everything I believe about God. More important, it eviscerates the heart of Jesus’ gospel. Jesus taught that love is the sum of the law! He enjoins us to forgive and love our enemies. "Your enemy be damned," is no part of his gospel. If we mere humans can forgive unforgettable damage, cant God who is more merciful? 

 

 


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Welcome to the forum. 

Welcome to the forum.

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Oneskepticalguy wrote:Just

Oneskepticalguy wrote:

Just Kidding about the Den of iniquity. I am a Theist but please dont pigeon hole me into a "Bible thumping young earth Creationist" because Im not, so put any pitchforks away. Here is where I am coming from. Overall, I actually believe religion has done more to manipulate and distort the message of Christ than all the Atheists who ever existed combined!

So therefore, Im not here to debate the Bible nor am I here trying to convert anyone. I take the stance of Show me God working in your life or shut the hell up! BTW, I think its foolish for people to push their Bible as the ultimate authority onto a group of people who think its just a comic book for adults, especially when that group more than likely knows more about the Bible than they do. Truth be told, I am skeptical of some of the tenets in the Bible and I view that as healthy because Im not one who is simply going to believe and swallow whole just because Im suppose to. Also, I would never intentionally put myself into a position of being a hypocrite pushing a "Do as I say, not what I do" theology.  As a result, I have kept an open mind and have learned a great deal from my atheist friends. Perhaps my greatest lesson learned has been to protect the freedoms and rights of those who do not believe, to support them to live their life to the fullest without any judgment or religion imposing on it. I try to remember first and formost that we are called to love all, not to judge or suppress all!  

I believe in science and evolution, but just not an evolution driven by "random mutation." Overall, I find that Science does not threaten or conflict with my Bible beliefs and actually support it. 

So my desire is to simply engage and try to understand the other side of the friendly lively discussion while sipping on a nice single malt scotch. 

 

Peace out!

 

It is cute that your first post is "Please don't hurt me", lol. In all seriousness, it is nice of you to recognize that we don't have horns and we do agree with you that religion can be harmful. We have no desire to physically harm believers, but claims will be knocked around here, that is what we do here.

So here is some friendly advice to help you deal with being the "away team" playing on atheist turf. Deal with each of us as individuals. Treat you separately from your claims. Remember that we have never met you in person, that is completely separate issue than any claim on any subject you may make. Some here like library discussions, and others, like me have no problem verbally boxing.

And also remember that you are NOT the first believer to post here or the first  who has said "I am not like the others". Many here once believed, including me, and considering the thousands of religions around the world, and hundreds of different sects, we hate to burst your bubble but you "are like the others".

I speak for myself when I say that i DO hate. But not the person. The Christian version is "Love the sinner not the sin". The atheist version is "love the claimant not the claim". I can like you, but not like and even hate some of the claims you make.

I don't always agree with my fellow atheists either. There are libertarian atheists, pro gun atheists, politically correct atheists, anti gun atheists. Atheists who love the NFL and others who cant stand it. Ultimately we are all the same species outside political and religious and economic labels.

Humans ultimately all want the same thing. Food, shelter, love, and the ability to bitch when we don't like something.

So if you keep the above in mind as you post, you should have an enjoyable stay. Others may deal with you differently, but I myself have a tendency to cut to the chase and am very blunt and blasphemous about claims.

 

Welcome in any case,

 

 

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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Welcome future atheist.I

Welcome future atheist.

I used to believe just like you.


harleysportster
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Welcome to the forum

 Welcome to the forum. Open minded discussions are always welcome. 


EXC
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Oneskepticalguy wrote:My

Oneskepticalguy wrote:

My belief in the existence of god first came from science, then confirmed by personal experiences.

Please show us the evidence, repeatable experiments and observations you've scientifically conducted. Personal experiences are not science unless corroborated.

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


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.

Oneskepticalguy wrote:

My belief in the existence of god first came from science, then confirmed by personal experiencesAt this point the path I am on is to simply follow only the words of Christ just like the very first Christians who didn’t have any bible to reference. I find that more often than not, religion has misinterpreted and have manipulated scripture, so I trust no one. A general rule of thumb for me is, if the interpretation of scripture makes God come off as a trivial, pitiful, tyrannical, condemning, judgmental asshole, then I will reject it untill further notice! So far, I find that religions interpretations are incorrect! Quite frankly, just focusing my walk on the words spoken by Jesus keeps me more than busy dealing with the plank in my own eye, to worry about someone elses splinter.

All you supposedly rational believers jump the gun. Here you go from science to experience to Christ without noticing you passed over polytheism in the process. Even in the christian context one can reasonably assume the Goddess Mary has a special hell reserved for those who do not recognize her divinity. Simply having an experience from one god, even a virgin god like Jesus, does not negate the hundreds to tens of thousands of other gods.

Of course nothing stands to reason as an arbitrary reality created by gods has nothing to do with human reason. Nor is there any reason to assume all the gods are kind and merciful and just. In fact most of the world gets along just fine without those kinds of gods. You need to hope your Jesus god has enough macho to protect you from the other gods including his goddess mother whom rumor holds to be a vindictive shrew.

So don't forget to fill us in on how you got to just one god and decided it was the virgin one.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Oneskepticalguy wrote:

To believe that God is too good to damn humans, or to believe that they’re too good to be damned by God… I choose number one.

Why do you assume this particular god has nothing better to do than care about what people do to each other?

We do not get involved in improper behavior among ants. We have better things to do.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Oneskepticalguy wrote:

Just Kidding about the Den of iniquity.

I like iniquity. Do you have a problem with that?


 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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If JC is an alien

Oneskepticalguy wrote:

Nice to see a thoughtful Christian again. You're right, God as a trickster creating a fake universe would be a true father of lies Smiling

I hope you don't mind some heavy questions. How do you tackle the problem of evil, existence of eternal fiery Hell and so on? Is it another piece of hateful theology to be rejected? In my opinion certainly, but as you know, it's quite a central point of Christianity, so I've got to ask.

 

Well basically I believe that Jesus is an alien and those who believe in him have evolved a God gene and will be beamed up into a spaceship while those who were not so evolved will  be naturally selected for extermination as inferior breeds and forced down a laundry shoot into the fiery center of the earth to ensure complete extinction of an inferior human ….Just Kidding! There are basically two choices.  To believe that God is too good to damn humans, or to believe that they’re too good to be damned by God… I choose number one. I cant see how a all merciful God will not forgive his enemies when we little humans are called to do so and do so!  I believe that when we project God to be vengeful and retributive, we pervert the divine image.The idea of eternal hellfire demeans everything I believe about God. More important, it eviscerates the heart of Jesus’ gospel. Jesus taught that love is the sum of the law! He enjoins us to forgive and love our enemies. "Your enemy be damned," is no part of his gospel. If we mere humans can forgive unforgettable damage, cant God who is more merciful? 

 

 

Then Adam would also have to be one. An apostle says JC is Adam the second, which means if Adam isn't an alien then neither is JC. Adam the second in this case means that the two are spiritually alike, their religion/philosophy would be the same and they see or interpret life the same. The reason you think JC is an alien is because you don't understand him. JC doesn't belong to this present world of thinking or "being, but that doesn't mean he's from another planet. This world is created by people and in line with what they want the world to be---that is-this (civilization) is merely an invention of of a few people to decide the lives of others. JC is of the world/thinking/likeness of Adam, and Adam was merely the beginning of righteous man, which means he was man the right way and not something created by those with an alternate purpose for others.

The only possible thing the world could need saving from are those running it.