Great site on the MYTHOLOGY of Jesus and the bible!

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Great site on the MYTHOLOGY of Jesus and the bible!

In spite of what Christians want to believe there is actually no evidence of the historicity of Jesus outside the New Testament; none! Any Christian that claims otherwise is lying. There is not one single contemporary reference to an historical Jesus. The few writers Christian's cite (Tacitus, Josephus, Suetonlus, Pliny) all wrote many decades after Jesus and their references were to the existence of Christians, not Jesus. Furthermore, there is overwhelming evidence that the references in Tacitus, and especially Josephus are merely later Christian additions.

http://www.thestoryofchristianity.com/the_evidence_for_christianity.php

Click here to find out why Christianity is the biggest fairy tale ever created!! www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm www.JesusNEVERexisted.com


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 We've been throwing out

 We've been throwing out some old junk and we set aside religious books, Bibles, biblical stories for children, etc. We decide if to put them anonymously into the local church, or scrap them. I'm in favor of scrapping. (so I don't have to carry them, avoid detection or answer awkward questions if I get caught putting 'em here) But there is a small brochure by Josh McDowell: More Than a Carpenter.

I took a pen and wrote in some criticism and debunking of the arguments and claims. It was fairly easy, except I needed one last thing. This, from the website above:

The Gospels are assumed to be eyewitness accounts of Jesus life and death. At least this is the way they are interpreted by Christians. However; there is absolutely no way this can be true. Two Gospels (Matthew and Luke) each detail stories about Jesus birth. No disciples were present at these or any of the subsequent events. There was no such thing as a disciple in the year Jesus was purported to be born. Hypothetically Mary or even Joseph could have recanted the stories at some later date but even they would have no knowledge of any secret meeting between Herod and the magi. Furthermore, the only possible legitimate witness to Jesus as the son of God, Mary, is particularly ridiculous. At one point in the Gospel of Mark Mary believed Jesus had lost his mind. Did Mary forget that Jesus was implanted in her miraculously by God? Why would Mary have even been surprised when Jesus was conversing with rabbis at the age of 12? This was, after all, the son of God and she would have been the only person on the planet to know this as a fact.

You see how diffcult is to use the common sense sometimes. 

Now, where do I dump that last little brochure? 

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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Luminon, to follow up on

Luminon, to follow up on what you wrote I got this little gem from the debunking Christianity blog:

We now know not only that none of the Old Testament writings is prophetic witness to (Jesus), but also that none of the writings of the New Testament is apostolic witness to Jesus as the early church itself understood apostolicity. The sufficient evidence for this point in the case of the New Testament writings is that all of them have been shown to depend on sources, written or oral, earlier than themselves, and hence not to be the original and originating witness that the early church mistook them to be in judging them to be apostolic. ["the sufficient evidence" without the agonizing detail of what they do contain which now supplies the grist for the blogosphere mythicists’ mill] – - the witness of the apostles is still rightly taken to be the real ‘Christian’ norm, even if we today have to locate this norm, not In the writings of the New Testament but in the earliest stratum of (Scriptural) witness accessible to us, given our own methods of historical analysis and reconstruction. Betz identifies this earliest stratum to be the Sermon on the Mount (Matt. 5:3-7:27). "This source presents us with an early form – deriving from (the Jerusalem Jesus Movement) – which had direct links to the teaching the historical Jesus and thus constituted an alternative to Gentile Christianity as known above all from the letters of Paul and the Gospels, as well as the later writings of the New Testament. [All are written in the context of imaging the Christ of faith, not the man Jesus]. If the Sermon on the Mount represents a response to the teaching of Jesus critical of that of Gentile Christianity, then it serves unmistakably to underline the well-known fact of how little we know of Jesus and his teaching. The reasons for our lack of knowledge are of a hermeneutical sort and cannot be overcome by an access of good will (apologetics). The Gentile Christian authors of the Gospels transmitted to us only that part of the teaching of Jesus that they themselves understood, they handed on only that which they were able to translate into the thought categories of Gentile Christianity, and which they judged to be worthy of transmission." (More to the point they included no more than they felt to be sufficient to lend historical credence to their Pauline Christ of faith myth). This calls for a new reconstruction of post death Jesus traditions. Ed Jones Dialogue – Vridar is such an attempt, it is in the form of a letter to R. Joseph Hoffmann about the now defunct Jesus Project. It is based largely on extracts from works of Ogden, Robinson and Betz.

http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2012/05/ed-jones-on-viable-solution-to-jesus.html#disqus_thread

 

Click here to find out why Christianity is the biggest fairy tale ever created!! www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm www.JesusNEVERexisted.com


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JesusNEVERexisted wrote:In

JesusNEVERexisted wrote:

In spite of what Christians want to believe there is actually no evidence of the historicity of Jesus outside the New Testament; none! Any Christian that claims otherwise is lying. There is not one single contemporary reference to an historical Jesus. The few writers Christian's cite (Tacitus, Josephus, Suetonlus, Pliny) all wrote many decades after Jesus and their references were to the existence of Christians, not Jesus. Furthermore, there is overwhelming evidence that the references in Tacitus, and especially Josephus are merely later Christian additions.

http://www.thestoryofchristianity.com/the_evidence_for_christianity.php

It wouldn't matter to me at all if the tomb of Jesus and his bones were found tomorrow and we got DNA evidence to prove it. All it would mean is a MAN existed. It still would not make magic babies real or surviving rigor mortis real.

But the evidence is that the Jesus character is a mix of motifs. "Jesus" as a name was quite common back then like Jones or Smith. And every culture back then had claims of "kristos" or "anointed one", which as a word eventually became the "Christ".

There was a group of people who started the religion of Christianity, otherwise it would not exist. But it is no more divine or handed down by a god than any other myth that humans start. That early group simply was inspired by legends and maybe even the illusions perpetrated by con artists, much like a phone psychic cons the caller out of their money. And when you read both the OT and NT it is clear that the writers of both clearly expected their super hero to swoop down and save them during their lifetime.

If you want to believe something badly enough the believer will. The writers may have truly believed in what they were writing, or may have been competing to be the new pioneers of the new upstart cult. But on every page of the bible, from the OT to the last page, the book is full of scientific absurdities, cruelty and immorality, and morally bankrupt.

The god character itself to me, would be like going to a Superman movie where Superman finds a women being raped in an ally and doesn't stop it claiming he couldn't interfere with the rapists "free will".

So while I agree that there IS NO contemporary evidence supporting the existence of a man named Jesus, the bigger picture to me is that the concept of the bible itself EVEN if a man was proven to exist, still would not make the bible a scientific textbook, much less a moral code to live by.

The bible is merely a book of myth. Peppering any book with real people or real places still would not make magic real or invisible friends real.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Very true Brian.  That's

Very true Brian.  That's why you see so many depictions of Jesus many of which look so different from each other! It's because NO ONE actually saw what he looks like! It's like if you invented a cartoon charcter and decided on the fly what you wanted him to look like!

Even the CNN special the "Mysteries of Jesus" said that some of the first drawings of Jesus were based on the Greek god Apollo! WOW!

Click here to find out why Christianity is the biggest fairy tale ever created!! www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm www.JesusNEVERexisted.com


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JesusNEVERexisted wrote:
Very true Brian.  That's why you see so many depictions of Jesus many of which look so different from each other! It's because NO ONE actually saw what he looks like! It's like if you invented a cartoon charcter and decided on the fly what you wanted him to look like!

Or if you were writing plays or street performances you would not describe the looks of any character so anyone could play the part. None of the people in gospels are described. This focus on Jesus distracts from seeing the big picture.

Quote:
Even the CNN special the "Mysteries of Jesus" said that some of the first drawings of Jesus were based on the Greek god Apollo! WOW!

Or look at the oldest images and notice he is clean shaven like Alexander and cocks one ear towards the viewer just like Alexander is described as doing for the damaged hearing in one ear.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

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www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Anointing

Anyone who made a big enough financial contribution to a temple was buying initiation into secret wisdom and begin anointed by the high priest. Romans working their way up the political ladder to high office in Rome needed to fill several squares with anointing by the main temple of important gods, the more the better.

 

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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A_Nony_Mouse

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

JesusNEVERexisted wrote:
Very true Brian.  That's why you see so many depictions of Jesus many of which look so different from each other! It's because NO ONE actually saw what he looks like! It's like if you invented a cartoon charcter and decided on the fly what you wanted him to look like!

Or if you were writing plays or street performances you would not describe the looks of any character so anyone could play the part. None of the people in gospels are described. This focus on Jesus distracts from seeing the big picture.

But the original character is a UNIQUE individual yet NO ONE ever saw or was even a contemporary of Jesus! This is despite the richest collection of historical records anywhere on earth! 

You can have different people play JFK, Lincoln, or George Washington in a play but the original person they are playing was a unique individual.  Unlike most other historical figures there is no corroboration of Jesus' existence!

Click here to find out why Christianity is the biggest fairy tale ever created!! www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm www.JesusNEVERexisted.com


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What exactly do you mean

JesusNEVERexisted wrote:

But the original character is a UNIQUE individual yet NO ONE ever saw or was even a contemporary of Jesus! This is despite the richest collection of historical records anywhere on earth! 

I accept that there is no contemporary evidence for Jesus the Christ.

However, are you saying that 1st century documentation for the Judean province is the richest collection of 1st century documentation that exists?

 


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JesusNEVERexisted wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

JesusNEVERexisted wrote:
Very true Brian.  That's why you see so many depictions of Jesus many of which look so different from each other! It's because NO ONE actually saw what he looks like! It's like if you invented a cartoon charcter and decided on the fly what you wanted him to look like!

Or if you were writing plays or street performances you would not describe the looks of any character so anyone could play the part. None of the people in gospels are described. This focus on Jesus distracts from seeing the big picture.

But the original character is a UNIQUE individual yet NO ONE ever saw or was even a contemporary of Jesus! This is despite the richest collection of historical records anywhere on earth! 

You can have different people play JFK, Lincoln, or George Washington in a play but the original person they are playing was a unique individual.  Unlike most other historical figures there is no corroboration of Jesus' existence!

By the same token no one saw any of the other characters either.

So what we might have is a collection of short street performance morality plays not originally intended to be a complete narrative but simply put together in some rough chronological order. They are episodic without continuity save for the occassional, they went down to. That is, nothing happens on the road. Additionally there are not enough different episodes to fill even the one year of Matthew much less the three years of the others. One can reasonably ask, This is all? and These were the most important things?

While of interest to look at specific problems with the gospels it is not wise to focus on any particular one as offering unique insight. There are so many things odd about them a radically different view of them is required. The narrator has an omniscient viewpoint reporting no one person could have witnessed and reports things he says no one witnessed like the temptation and prayer in Gethsemane. But if it were a single storyteller he is inconsistent with his own story.

There is no credible way to retreat from stories created by Apostles to something lesser. We have to start over from the ground up to figure out what they were supposed to be.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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x wrote:JesusNEVERexisted

x wrote:

JesusNEVERexisted wrote:

But the original character is a UNIQUE individual yet NO ONE ever saw or was even a contemporary of Jesus! This is despite the richest collection of historical records anywhere on earth! 

I accept that there is no contemporary evidence for Jesus the Christ.

However, are you saying that 1st century documentation for the Judean province is the richest collection of 1st century documentation that exists?

 

It deserves a thread of its own but there are well over TWO DOZEN historical figures who lived in the exact area and the exact time as the bible CLAIMS Jesus existed yet they don't write a word about him!

The bible CLAIMS Jesus had thousands and thousands of followers, walked on water, raised the death, etc. yet the historical figures living at the time never saw or heard of anything like that! Bible stories are the same myth as what the Greek gods and Roman gods did and the actual evidence shows that! Even clergy has admitted the bible was written many DECADES after Jesus' alleged existence and it was written to spread the religion as opposed to being historically accurate!

Plus in the bible it says to LIE for your god!

 

 

Click here to find out why Christianity is the biggest fairy tale ever created!! www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm www.JesusNEVERexisted.com


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Fair enough

JesusNEVERexisted wrote:

It deserves a thread of its own but there are well over TWO DOZEN historical figures who lived in the exact area and the exact time as the bible CLAIMS Jesus existed yet they don't write a word about him!

The bible CLAIMS Jesus had thousands and thousands of followers, walked on water, raised the death, etc. yet the historical figures living at the time never saw or heard of anything like that! Bible stories are the same myth as what the Greek gods and Roman gods did and the actual evidence shows that! Even clergy has admitted the bible was written many DECADES after Jesus' alleged existence and it was written to spread the religion as opposed to being historically accurate!

Plus in the bible it says to LIE for your god!

 

It's safe to say that the Jesus of the bible never existed, but I haven't ruled out the possibility that there was some minor person called Jesus who lived then and had layers of myth added to his story.

Evaluating the sources of myths is a tricky business and it is something I hope to look further into if I find time.

 


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x wrote:JesusNEVERexisted

x wrote:

JesusNEVERexisted wrote:

It deserves a thread of its own but there are well over TWO DOZEN historical figures who lived in the exact area and the exact time as the bible CLAIMS Jesus existed yet they don't write a word about him!

The bible CLAIMS Jesus had thousands and thousands of followers, walked on water, raised the death, etc. yet the historical figures living at the time never saw or heard of anything like that! Bible stories are the same myth as what the Greek gods and Roman gods did and the actual evidence shows that! Even clergy has admitted the bible was written many DECADES after Jesus' alleged existence and it was written to spread the religion as opposed to being historically accurate!

Plus in the bible it says to LIE for your god!

 

It's safe to say that the Jesus of the bible never existed, but I haven't ruled out the possibility that there was some minor person called Jesus who lived then and had layers of myth added to his story.

Evaluating the sources of myths is a tricky business and it is something I hope to look further into if I find time.

 

Right, there could've been someone that the Jesus character was based off of just like there was for Zeus and Hercules but nothing more.  Everything else about the Jesus story was fabricated centuries later and then Christianity was spread by FORCE!!

Click here to find out why Christianity is the biggest fairy tale ever created!! www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm www.JesusNEVERexisted.com