Mises and Moses?

TheSaderV
Posts: 1
Joined: 2012-05-15
User is offlineOffline
Mises and Moses?

I got done watching some of clips of the Zeitgeist documentary, and they brought up the idea that Mises (an egyptian law giver) was the parallel to the Jewish law giver Moses. I googled Mises, but nothing on him/her came up. If anyone knows the story of Mises, can they confirm the statement above for me? Or tell me if Mises is even in Egyptian mythology to begin with?

I'm looking for answers on the roots of the Judeo-Christian religions, so please offer any information availible.

“The Christian religion is a parody on the worship of the sun, in which they put a man called Christ in the place of the sun, and pay him the adoration originally payed to the sun.”
― Thomas Paine


x
Bronze Member
Posts: 591
Joined: 2010-06-15
User is offlineOffline
Thoth?

I've not heard of Mises, but I think that Thoth/Djehuti was the ancient Egyptian law-giving god.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/59681201/Berossus-And-Genesis-Manetho-And-Exodus-Hellenistic-Histories-And-the-Date-of-the-Pentateuch-Russell-E-Gmirkin

is a book on the roots of Judaism.

Israel Finkelstein writes on the associated archaeology.

 

Also see http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/17279

 

 


iwbiek
atheistSuperfan
iwbiek's picture
Posts: 3088
Joined: 2008-03-23
User is offlineOffline
i can't find anything

i can't find anything concrete on "mises" either, though i found one site where someone said mises was sumerian, then another where a guy said he was actually assyrian.  someone also suggested that the assyrian sargon was a possible influence on the moses myth.

i just think zeitgeist was sloppy with their research.  surprise, surprise.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


A_Nony_Mouse
A_Nony_Mouse's picture
Posts: 2880
Joined: 2008-04-23
User is offlineOffline
.

TheSaderV wrote:
I got done watching some of clips of the Zeitgeist documentary, and they brought up the idea that Mises (an egyptian law giver) was the parallel to the Jewish law giver Moses. I googled Mises, but nothing on him/her came up. If anyone knows the story of Mises, can they confirm the statement above for me? Or tell me if Mises is even in Egyptian mythology to begin with?

I'm looking for answers on the roots of the Judeo-Christian religions, so please offer any information availible.

 

i do not recall ever coming across any named lawgiver for Egypt. I do not recall anyone even of the stature of Solon for the Greeks. Hamurabi's fame is not in the law but in producing copies of the whole of the law placed all over his empire.

If you want a real lawgiver go to MST3K.

If you want to go to Moses as lawgiver go to the modern redacdtion. in the Septuagint he is only the conduit for revealed law, a prophet. He created no law himself.

Looking for a parallel to Moses as a lawgiver is a fool's errand from the get go. The Moses of the Septuagint is a tongue tied puppet of Yahweh with no intrinsic merit for himself other than as the chosen puppet.

To properly understand the Septuagint one has to read it WITHOUT the "what it really means" companion books. It means what it says regardless of currently popular theology even when, particularly when it is totally contrary to currently popular theology.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


x
Bronze Member
Posts: 591
Joined: 2010-06-15
User is offlineOffline
Menes and Thoth

http://www.harris-greenwell.com/HGS/MenesFirstToWriteTheLaw

extract:

In his study of Ancient Egypt, B. Kemp described the process of the unification of Egypt and the formation of the Egyptian State from small, independent agricultural communities. Central to this aggregative process was the notion of the “containment of the unrule.” This concept was one which drove the “need for kingship,” a kingship required to re-impose the order of a mythical age, where ma’at—justice and harmony—ruled and combated the forces of chaos. By a sort of divine dispensation the kings participated in the power of ma’at, who was, in fact, a goddess as well as a concept. It was their rule that assured that order prevailed over the chaos of unrule. The unification of Egypt thus was inextricably linked to the promotion of law.

As Diodorus informs us:

For in primitive Egypt, after life had become settled, . . . they say that the first person who convinced the people to use written laws was Menes, a man both lofty in spirit and the most altruistic in his way of life of any lawgiver in memory. He claimed that Hermes had given these laws to him as a source of many substantial benefits; and this, they say, is just what Minos of Crete did among the Greeks and Lycurgos among the Lacedaemonians, the former asserting that he had received his revelations from Zeus, the latter from Apollo. 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoth

 

The Greeks related Thoth to their god Hermes due to his similar attributes and functions.


Teralek
Theist
Teralek's picture
Posts: 590
Joined: 2010-07-15
User is offlineOffline
I just reviewed one of my

I just reviewed one of my favorite movies. This little gem called Man from Earth.

In this movie is mentioned again the myth of Mises or Misis as being the origin of the Moses story. I can't find anything either... the movie is from 2007. There are stories in the Bible clearly copied from previous myths but I don't know about the origin of the Exodus myth.

The Zeitgeist "documentary" is a bunch of crap that I don't give any credibility. It starts well but it progresses until it dips in the mud of intellectual dishonesty.

Now this movie I'm talking about is a much greater "mind masturbation" despite being a work of fiction. It tells briefly a much better explanation for the origin of the Bible than any interpretation I know of from any religion 

______________________________________________________________
"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies


A_Nony_Mouse
A_Nony_Mouse's picture
Posts: 2880
Joined: 2008-04-23
User is offlineOffline
.

TheSaderV wrote:

I got done watching some of clips of the Zeitgeist documentary, and they brought up the idea that Mises (an egyptian law giver) was the parallel to the Jewish law giver Moses. I googled Mises, but nothing on him/her came up. If anyone knows the story of Mises, can they confirm the statement above for me? Or tell me if Mises is even in Egyptian mythology to begin with?

I'm looking for answers on the roots of the Judeo-Christian religions, so please offer any information availible.

Since my first response here I got this PM from another forum.

Quote:
You ever read about this guy? Amenmesse, who is possibly the real Moses?

Found info on this site:
http://www.aldokkan.com/egypt/amenmesse.htm

Basically boils down to Amenmesse trying to usurp the throne from the other Pharaoh Seti II, and later Setnakhte. He eventually uses Asiatic slaves to control Egypt but fails and is forced to retreat to Palestine, where he starts a cult that will become Judaism.

My response was

Quote:

People who search for "kernels of truth" are always looking for some trivial similarity they can conflate into the "real" story. He starts doing it with

Quote
Amenmesse might be (Amen Moses) the son of Takhat and Merenptah. A member of the Egyptian royal family who was later transformed into a Hebrew by the Jewish people in explanation of his position as their deliverer from slavery and founder of their religion.

 


There is no evidence for any jewish people or for a spoken Hebrew but based upon this imagined kernel he reads into existence a people, language and religion for which there is no evidence.

The most anyone can say about any similarity is that it MAY have been the inspiration for one aspect of a later story. It says nothing about who wrote the story or when it was written. Storytellers are entertainers. Being constrained by facts and details is an alien concept. Facts are not permitted to get in the way of entertainment.

As to this particular connection, Moses was a common name component in Egypt Thutmoses for example. One would have to exhaustively explore all of them before picking a particular one and then only with very good reasons unique to the person and recounted without deviation. He does everything but stick to the available evidence. If one can change things beyond recognition, what does kernel mean?

Whatever brought this up in two places at roughly the same time I have no idea. Probably a "serious" source like History Channel.

 

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


A_Nony_Mouse
A_Nony_Mouse's picture
Posts: 2880
Joined: 2008-04-23
User is offlineOffline
.

Teralek wrote:

I just reviewed one of my favorite movies. This little gem called Man from Earth.

In this movie is mentioned again the myth of Mises or Misis as being the origin of the Moses story. I can't find anything either... the movie is from 2007. There are stories in the Bible clearly copied from previous myths but I don't know about the origin of the Exodus myth.

The Zeitgeist "documentary" is a bunch of crap that I don't give any credibility. It starts well but it progresses until it dips in the mud of intellectual dishonesty.

Now this movie I'm talking about is a much greater "mind masturbation" despite being a work of fiction. It tells briefly a much better explanation for the origin of the Bible than any interpretation I know of from any religion 

And one of the best SF movies ever regardless of the budget of which Man from Earth had next to none. The most expensive prop is a pickup truck. It also has more points of congruence than this
Mises yarn.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


harleysportster
atheist
harleysportster's picture
Posts: 3185
Joined: 2010-10-17
User is offlineOffline
Teralek wrote:The Zeitgeist

Teralek wrote:

The Zeitgeist "documentary" is a bunch of crap that I don't give any credibility. It starts well but it progresses until it dips in the mud of intellectual dishonesty.

 

I have to totally agree with you on that one. (Imagine that, WE AGREE ON SOMETHING, lol). I am no scholar and even I could see all of the errors and conspiracy theory nonsense in zeitgeist. Plus, alot of the "religious" information they are giving out in the beginning is all wrong. It gave me a headache to watch it.  

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


harleysportster
atheist
harleysportster's picture
Posts: 3185
Joined: 2010-10-17
User is offlineOffline
A_Nony_Mouse

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

 

 Probably a "serious" source like History Channel.

  

 

I used to love the History Channel. But now, every time I turn on there, it is some program about "inexplicable mysteries" and "ancient aliens". 

They even had one about the Nazis using UFO technology to time travel. I made it through all of five seconds before changing the channel. 

I thought history was supposed to report history as we know it. Not present weird conspiracy theories, haunted houses and all that other bunk. 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


Teralek
Theist
Teralek's picture
Posts: 590
Joined: 2010-07-15
User is offlineOffline
harleysportster

harleysportster wrote:

Teralek wrote:

The Zeitgeist "documentary" is a bunch of crap that I don't give any credibility. It starts well but it progresses until it dips in the mud of intellectual dishonesty.

 

I have to totally agree with you on that one. (Imagine that, WE AGREE ON SOMETHING, lol). I am no scholar and even I could see all of the errors and conspiracy theory nonsense in zeitgeist. Plus, alot of the "religious" information they are giving out in the beginning is all wrong. It gave me a headache to watch it.  

I know we do agree in a lot of things but it's more fun to talk about things we disagree 

As a side note I believe the general atheist is smarter or more knowledgeable than the average "believer"

______________________________________________________________
"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies


harleysportster
atheist
harleysportster's picture
Posts: 3185
Joined: 2010-10-17
User is offlineOffline
Teralek wrote:I know we do

Teralek wrote:

I know we do agree in a lot of things but it's more fun to talk about things we disagree 

 

 

I have to agree on that one too. Laughing out loud

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


JesusNEVERexisted
Superfan
JesusNEVERexisted's picture
Posts: 679
Joined: 2010-01-03
User is offlineOffline
TheSaderV wrote:I got done

TheSaderV wrote:

I got done watching some of clips of the Zeitgeist documentary, and they brought up the idea that Mises (an egyptian law giver) was the parallel to the Jewish law giver Moses. I googled Mises, but nothing on him/her came up. If anyone knows the story of Mises, can they confirm the statement above for me? Or tell me if Mises is even in Egyptian mythology to begin with?

I'm looking for answers on the roots of the Judeo-Christian religions, so please offer any information availible.

Moses is 100% myth and it's even more glaring than Jesus who is 99% myth!

Click here to find out why Christianity is the biggest fairy tale ever created!! www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm www.JesusNEVERexisted.com


A_Nony_Mouse
A_Nony_Mouse's picture
Posts: 2880
Joined: 2008-04-23
User is offlineOffline
.

harleysportster wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
Probably a "serious" source like History Channel.

I used to love the History Channel. But now, every time I turn on there, it is some program about "inexplicable mysteries" and "ancient aliens". 

They even had one about the Nazis using UFO technology to time travel. I made it through all of five seconds before changing the channel. 

I thought history was supposed to report history as we know it. Not present weird conspiracy theories, haunted houses and all that other bunk.

 

Same with all the rest like Learning Channel and in the good old days there was www.giwersworld.org/mgiwer/hebrews.html Of course it has only gotten worse for the religious since this.

The Greatest Story in History
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1995 <10/29>

      When I was a lad (I have waited decades to say that) the press would always say the Second Coming would be the greatest story in history. Today we cynically joke about the headline, "World ends tomorrow, women and blacks to suffer most." Perhaps that cynicism is deserved as there is such a story and it has only been covered in one documentary series.
      That series is "Archaeology" hosted by John Rhyse-Davies and has only been shown in the US on The Learning Channel on cable TV. In some six episodes it covered the discoveries of archaeologists in Israel in recent years. In two of them it objectively and in a very understated manner, removed the foundations of Judaism, Christianity, and the Muslim religion.
      None of this is a secret. It is in the technical literature and if you visit Israel you can visit the sites. And yet that is the extent of the coverage of the story.
      In one episode the evidence of the origin of the Israelites is quite carefully laid out. They always lived in the land of Israel as herdsmen and came to power when people who lived in the cities for some unknown reason lost power, possibly a war, most likely insurrection by the herdsmen. To put it more bluntly, as they always lived where they are there was no Promised Land. Lacking a Promised Land, there was no Egypt, no Moses, no Ten Commandments. The entire foundation for three religions has vanished.
      Lacking an Egypt and a Moses we are also lacking a Joseph and an Abraham and a covenant with a god. Circumcision, the sign of the covenant, becomes no different from any other ritual sexual mutilation performed by primitives around the world. In this everything in the first five books of the Bible, the Pentateuch, the foundation of three religions vanishes.
      In the other episode the Israelite pantheon is discussed. The idols of Yahweh, Astarte (his consort, which is also in inscriptions so there is no mistake), Baal and several other gods are shown. And a common representation of all of them in one idol is also shown. Again more bluntly, Yahweh God, God the Father of Jesus who was the prophet before Mohammed was no more than an Israelite version of Zeus, Jupiter or Odin.
      All of this has been implied in the Bible itself and has been known for centuries. In the last hundred years it has rapidly become clear from other sources that there was no basis whatsoever for the Egypt/Moses story: it being only slightly less fanciful than the magic fruit, the talking snake and miraculous flood of Genesis.
      But now, in addition to negative evidence, the lack of evidence for the truth of the Egypt/Moses story, we have positive evidence of its falsity. Without first person interaction with a god the Ten Commandments are barely more a footnote in the history of human moral ideas. Without a Moses it is difficult to give credence Mosaic Law as being much of anything other than a curiosity.
      When we learn for certain this Yahweh was just the first of a pantheon of gods (thou shalt have no "other" gods before me, as it always read and always meant) there is no credible basis to argue, "This one is real, the rest were not." Since this same god that is God the Father of the Christian trinity it becomes laughable to argue for its having either a son or a spirit as other parts of the same idol. If there ever was a Jesus certainly he was no more than a man as there is nothing more for him to have a relation than a stone idol.
      And while Christians focus on their Jesus, Muslims need to consider that their Allah is the same stone idol. Their prophet is a prophet of a stone and when they "akbar" their "Allah" it is this primitive idol they are praising.
      That is the story that is not being reported and it is more profound than I have portrayed. It is easy to think about people recognizing there is no god but it is another to examine that in practice.
      Next time you are driving through town pay attention to all the churches and religious references you see. That is how deeply we are enmired in the worship of one of the gods of the Israelite pantheon. Listen to the political speeches and delete the foundation in a god from everything said. Review every law that exists to prevent an offense against god, remove the god and try to fill in the blank.
      The UFO conspiracy types hold the government suppresses what it knows about UFOs because of the effect upon the people that "we are not alone." Yet right here for all to see and read about is the removal of the entire foundation for the religious beliefs of over half of the world's population. It is the biggest news story of all time. It appears the cynicism about what is news these days is clearly warranted.
      Perhaps no one wants to be the one to break the story? Perhaps it is just a matter of not wanting to put it bluntly? But this is like leaving the coverage of a UFO landing on the White House lawn to a "maybe, someday" article by the paper's science writer.
      And if one wanted to continue to take religion seriously you would think a picture of Yahweh (a photo of his idol) would be front page news. It is like discovering a bust of Jesus or proof positive the Shroud of Turin is authentic. A painting of Mohammet would pale in comparison but these discoveries are not news.
      So while you have not read it in the papers or seen it on the evening news, the greatest news story of all time (at least of the last two millennia) is not being told. Now you know it. The foundation of three major religions is now gone and it was beneath the notice of the press. It makes you wonder what else the media is not covering.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


JesusNEVERexisted
Superfan
JesusNEVERexisted's picture
Posts: 679
Joined: 2010-01-03
User is offlineOffline
Amongst archeologists it is

Amongst archeologists it is nowadays regarded as certain that Moses never existed....Niels Peter Lemche, Danish Old Testament researcher, emphasized that Abraham never lived. Nor did Isaak and Jacob ever exist. The Exodus from Egypt never happened either. The Bible accounts, mocks Lemche, are as suitable for archeological research as the novel 'Ivanhoe' from Walter Scott is for the reconstruction of England's history of medieval times. What is left to be discussed by scholars today, is only the questions when exactly did the Mosaic religion come into being? --Focus, Munich, 38/2001, page  130

 

Click here to find out why Christianity is the biggest fairy tale ever created!! www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm www.JesusNEVERexisted.com