For araujo

tonyjeffers
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For araujo

OK araujo, this is mainly for you to start, but I'm sure Jean will be happy to give you some guidance should you need it. 

 You claim to have all the answers and have it very clear in your head how the whole scenario of how things are going to play out. You also seem to think that we all must be blind and dumb not to see how simple it has all been spelled out for us. So why not enlighten us instead of just writing us all off as morons. Would you mind spelling it all out for us in plain English the whole end time, judgement day, heaven and hell scenario?

No need to make it too fancy, just something us morons can understand.  Start with our present existence and end with God's final reign of a new heaven and new earth .  Be sure not to leave anyone out like the 144,000 and those who may or may not be already in heaven or hell, all the people who have long been dead etc. And PLEASE NUMBER EACH STEP to make it easy for us to follow.

I'm not just being an ass here. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has been confused by the whole story, even if we have read the whole bible 200 times over.  IF you believe in this so whole-heartedly, I would think it would be worth a few moments of your time.

Please just pretend we all are new to these ideas and are of a simple high-school education. It should go something like this and I cannot stress how important it is to NUMBER EACH STEP :

 

(this is NOT a set order of course-just a sample of events as I thought of them)

1. Here we are now (we have those who have been presented with the gospel and those who never got the chance to hear about Jesus)

2. The false messiah will come

3. Jesus will return

4. All those who are dead will re-materialize

5. Satan reigns for 1,000 years

6. everyone will stand before the Lord one by one to be judged

7. those who are already in heaven or hell will ???? and the 144,000 will ?????  and the rest of the Jews will ?????

8. all non-believers will be cast into a lake of fire along with everyone from every other religion

9. You and all the REAL christians will be (where ??) forever with God.

 

You get my drift. This should be easy for you. I would really appreciate it and I'm sure it will start some good conversations. And PLEASE NUMBER EACH STEP!!!!

 

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


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I bet he won't number

I bet he won't number anything.

Any takers?


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He'll have to pray about it

 He'll have to pray about it first.  Pray that his answers blow us away and lead us to the TRUTH ! 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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well, in the meantime, i'll

well, in the meantime, i'll give the standard fundy chronology:

1. rapture of living believers (this is heavily disputed among christians so this step might be missing)

2. coming of the antichrist

3. apparent death of the antichrist and his resurrection by the false prophet

4. tribulation, consisting of seven trumpets, seven seals, and seven vials (in revelation they kind of fit into each other like russian dolls, but i can't remember if this is the correct order)

5. somewhere in here israel begins to be converted, especially thanks to the two "witnesses," whom most fundies believe are elijah and enoch returned from being taken up bodily into heaven.  eventually they're martyred.

6. last trumpet and coming of christ in the clouds.

7. resurrection of the righteous dead into eternal life.  according to first thessalonians, this is when the rapture of living believers will take place, not before the tribulation (the idea of the pre-tribulation rapture has its origins not in traditional biblical teaching, but rather in a vision a crazy 19th century scottish girl had).

8. satan and his minions are chained in a pit.

9. millennium in an earthly paradise ruled over physically by jim caviez--er--jesus.

10. satan and his minions are let out of the pit "for a short time" (ha-ha, just kidding, fucking evil still exists!), before being cast by god into the lake of fire.

11. the resurrection of the unrighteous dead and their judgment before the "great white throne," when the book of human deeds will be opened and they will be condemned for raping, murdering, stealing, masturbating, fucking beautiful women they cared deeply about but neglected to say a few words in a church with, being a peaceful jain, thinking the bible sounds like it was written by stan lee, spitting on the sidewalk, picking up sticks on a saturday, calling god on his bullshit, watching george carlin, listening to kiss, letting their hair get below half an inch above the ear, throwing away a lee greenwood tape, etc., etc., etc.

12. those unrighteous dead are cast into the lake of fire and the believers are led triumphantly into the new jerusalem, where jesus turns over rule of the new heaven and earth to big daddy (even though they're somehow the same person).

note: as far as people going directly to heaven when they die, christians are divided on this.  what little evidence there is for it in the bible ("abraham's bosom," the thief on the cross, the vision of the 144,000 around god's throne in rev. 4) is vague, and many christians insist they're figurative.  other interpretations are that the "paradise" jesus promised the thief on the cross was the same as abraham's bosom and referred to a sort of "holding place" for righteous jews that was shut down after jesus's descent into hades, and pre-tribbers argue that the 144,000 praising god are the freshly raptured church.

regardless, almost all christians believe that if there are spirits of dead believers in heaven, it's only a temporary arrangement, and that they will be resurrected at the last trumpet with "glorified bodies" and populate the new heaven and earth.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


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Thanks iwbiek for taking the

Thanks iwbiek for taking the time to write that out. 

I had started a self refresher course on the bible and this will come in handy. I will copy and paste it in a file named "nonsense".

As I'm sure you could tell I've gotten a little rusty on my bible "knowledge".  I don't know where the hell I got satan being loose for 1,000 years. lol   You can see how one can get confused in such a whirlpool of poo.

And once it got filed in my mind under nonsense it just got shoved back with all the other ancient myths that have no use in my daily life.

It's no wonder the bible doesn't come with a real summary. It sounds so silly and self-contradictory when written out in such a way that no one would ever read past the summary.

I'm still amazed at myself for ever believing in such rubbish.  But there was a time I believed in Santa Clause too.

You raise some good questions about the resurrection of the dead and the rapture.  I will get back to you on that.

I guess we may never get araujo's summary. Maybe he needed to study as well.  I thought Jean would at least throw his 2 cents in.  If for no other reason but to poke fun at me.

We'll see.  thanks again

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


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no problem.  i actually

no problem.  i actually found this shit somehow logical too once upon a time, so you're not alone.  i was a hardcore pre-millennial, king james-only, scofield-reading, anti-catholic, dispensational, once saved-always saved, predestinarian baptist fundy.

oh, and i was a ray comfort fan.

then one day i decided i didn't want to be an asshole anymore, thus began my gradual deconversion.  it started with reading christian mysticism, then other mystical traditions (taoism and zen in particulae), then i went from fundy to calvinist evangelical (i dropped all the eschatological hair-splitting and king james-only baggage), then i went to being a liberal (and i guess rather pelagian) christian who believed jesus was the best of all possble ways, then an extremely liberal christian who believed jesus was only one of many equally viable ways, then finally i just said fuck it.

the whole process took about 5 years, i guess.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


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Old Seer

Old Seer,

I have a couple questions for you  that are not meant to attack you or your group, but they don't merit any eloquent writing, so I"ll just be blunt.-

1. Why are you here?  I only ask because you speak as if you have some agenda. You've never started a thread of your own. Why not just spit it out and make an original post with a mission statement instead of posts here and there within threads that sound as if you are infiltrating?

2. Why is this group of yours so secret? Does it have a name and/or a leader or leaders?  Do you fancy yourselves as to be so vital to the way the world and the future that anyone here or any government agency would really find you worthy of any serious attention?

If you are worthy of such-why? and why can't you tell us? No harm in telling us if we don't know who you are.

3. You speak of "learnings" and "the book" and so forth. Do you have a written doctrine? I've heard you speak as if the bible was legit before translation. You constantly say "We believe" etc. I would think if you speak as if the members of your group agree on so much that you would all at least agree on one piece of literature that you could divulge.

4. What other types of forums do you and your group infiltrate (or whatever it is that you do)? Why atheists?

5. How did you come about this group? and surely someone had to start it?

I only ask you these things because of the sarcastic remarks i made to one of your posts and your reply.  I certainly do not find it worth the effort to go back track you thru past threads (none of which you started) to understand why and where you are coming from, when you are the one who speaks somewhat elusively.

I would think if you answered these kinds of questions then your posts may get better replies.

Or don't, -it's your story. I was just wondering.

 

ANSWER FROM OLD SEER:

1- I'm here at the request of the others of the team, because I am the one with the best wording ability to explain things. But that's not what your question is about--- I am here to let off the info from our studies. Yes -I am infiltrating but I didn't see it that way, but since you put it in that term I have to concur. There is a reason for this. We don't want to become part of any group, not that we think we're better then others, it's to keep a distance as not to be influenced. When becoming part of a group it is expediant to take on it's philosophies and beliefs. We don't want to be phonies by pretending to be compatible. Don't worry, it's not because others don't take a shower every day. Floks are just fine. The posts here and there are because it's an easier take off if from another,s input. Why not just spit it out--OK, but it would amount to writing another book as large as the dictionary. It would be to long of a posting. Why not start a thread of my own. ---I thought of that but-- I stated a thread ( The Seer,s Corner ) on a Christian site and it only produced a few posts. It was proven they weren't Christians. The questions I posed couldn't be answered. If they were Christians they could have answered them. They were stumped. The same may happen here. We don;t want to give the impression we think you're all stupid, which is another reason we are here, you're not stupid. I was told when assigned you here are good thinkers. What better floks to hand the ball off to.

2- Secrecy is a must. consider---the Apostles marched into Rome preaching a new religion--and got killed for it. Only two of us are public. If something happens to us there's others left. Once they (Apostles)were gone their religion disappeared with them. We're insuring that it stays this time around. This will be the last time around, the world cannot sustain another 2000 years of what's been going on. B-We reffer to ourselves as Guardians. It's nothing special, it' only because we have taken measure to guard what we know. Guardian is not a label or name- it's job/assignment that's understood. C- there are no leaders. We no longer are in need of being led. No one seeks authority or advantage over another within or outside the group. If we all understand the same it becomes impossible for one to lead, there's nothing to lead on. . We no longer are in close touch with each other. We are scattered throughout the country. I live in an RV and travel quite a bit, the others do the same.There's' no reason to be close anymore, the studies were completed in the summer of 1992. We are retired or close to. D- Vital- no, not to the world as it is, but vital to making sure one remains. E- Government: no danger from them at present. Bear in mind-it was civil government that killed JC and followers and a bunch of others. We will in the future be a threat to Government. That's was/is the mission of Christianity, to remove central government. That happens when people see that "it" is the seat of the world problems. When floks begin to understand that government will be looking for us. It's already to late for government to remove what we know. It's already in to many places for to long.  We made sure of that before putting anything in plain sight or in mass public view. The Apostles cover this by---feed a baby a spoonful at a time so as not to choke the baby. But, we can choke the baby if the gov makes it necessary. On the other hand the gov may leave us alone for fear of reprisal by the people. But, will get it from the people either way. That's what the book of Rev is partially about.

3- Learnings. In this case the book is the bible. We don't like the term "Bible". We say book or document. "Bible" is over-used and can bring negative reactions from some. B- we don't have any special doctrines or codes. There are doctrines everyone has from nature, such as - we hold these truths to be self evident- You know where that is from, right. Those self evident truths are natural doctrine. There's no need to invent any. C- Literature- We don't posses any literature that we can present. We haven't compiled any. Any literature we dealt with was in libraries or public documents that we didn't own . We did have copies of Egyptian writings and sample (photos) of Egyptian Glyphs, but we have no need anymore to use or keep them. Our studies are over. We were never in close proxsimity to each other, at least I wasn't.

4- Other forms- I was on two other Atheist forums and three Christians forums for a while. It got so I didn't know where I was and reduced the total back to this one. I couldn't keep up with it. B- Why Atheists-- After looking over this forum the other guys sent me here. We were looking ( as I see it now) for a place, a people, a group, to give our info to. We want others to know what we know, form there, if they understand, they would propagate it. Moreover we are obligated to inform others. If I walk by your house and your car is burning I'm obligated to knock on your door and inform you. We say Atheists are good thinkers. If what we have is true they'll find it.                5-  I came by the group while having lunch a a local eatery. One of them was passing through and we got into a conversation at the bar. He was a salesman covering Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa, North and South Dakota, and a member of an adventure and explorer club. The club was of 2 Psycho smurfs a physics smurf etc. he called it a smuffdom because the smurfs were on TV at the time (1985). Me being a bible scholar and physicist I presented my problem with Biblical Creation. I thought that was the end of it and forgot about it. A month later the waitress handed me a packet of papers and----we were off and on the way. Eight years later we were done.

I'm not elusive as I would say. This is new stuff but very old/ancient. What you think as elusive may be unfamiliarity. There was a time we were the same. What's needed to realize is that ancient floks weren't stupid, People of today are easily fooled on ancient people because of todays material accomplishments. The writers of ancient documents  throughout the middle east weren't about material undertakings. They had people figured out. Prophecy is simple . If you know how people think you can determine the end result. Thinking in a particular way will bring about the consequences of that directly correspond to it.

Questions---nobody has been asking these kinds of question. I've been waiting-it's my assignment. Danatemporary asked a few the other day but I couldn't figure out how the messaging works, she has my apologies.

Thank you for asking. Regards.

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


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For anyone just reading this

For anyone just reading this thread, I brought over a discussion started with Old Seer because we we hi-jacking "Greatest I Am" thread.

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


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Old Seer

Old Seer,

Thanks for your reply,

You said it would basically take a book for you to pose a mission statement, so I guess the best I can do is pick at you with some questions.  It's gotten boring around here lately so hopefully at least some good ideas or new questions can arise here.

As i said in the other thread, excuse my attitude in my original post above. Auraujo was a bit annoying. Also I wrote that question without giving much thought to any detaials as you can tell. Iwbiek was kind enough to elaborate on it a bit. I'm just saying don't let it reflect my knowledge of the bible.  I don't claim to be any kind of expert, but as a former christian I know much more than what I wrote above.  I guess you would have to have been involved in the discussions with Auraujo that led me to post this thread in the first place to understand.

You said that your studies were over so I assume you and your group are well set on what you 'believe' and 'know to be true' so I wonder if you can answer the question in the original post to start with. Of course feel free to add in what you think or believe should be added concerning civilization, government, etc.  

All i ask is that you hold to my obvious requirement of 'NUMBERING' . Whatever is impossible for you to number just add in a short commentary reason as to why and move on to the next numbered step.

I have other questions concerning your answer from above but I will separate posts as to not mix and complicate things too much and to make it easier to address.

Thank you.

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


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OK I'm Here.

tonyjeffers wrote:

Old Seer,

Thanks for your reply,

You said it would basically take a book for you to pose a mission statement, so I guess the best I can do is pick at you with some questions.  It's gotten boring around here lately so hopefully at least some good ideas or new questions can arise here.

As i said in the other thread, excuse my attitude in my original post above. Auraujo was a bit annoying. Also I wrote that question without giving much thought to any details as you can tell. Iwbiek was kind enough to elaborate on it a bit. I'm just saying don't let it reflect my knowledge of the bible.  I don't claim to be any kind of expert, but as a former christian I know much more than what I wrote above.  I guess you would have to have been involved in the discussions with Auraujo that led me to post this thread in the first place to understand.

You said that your studies were over so I assume you and your group are well set on what you 'believe' and 'know to be true' so I wonder if you can answer the question in the original post to start with. Of course feel free to add in what you think or believe should be added concerning civilization, government, etc.  

All i ask is that you hold to my obvious requirement of 'NUMBERING' . Whatever is impossible for you to number just add in a short commentary reason as to why and move on to the next numbered step.

I have other questions concerning your answer from above but I will separate posts as to not mix and complicate things too much and to make it easier to address.

Thank you.

I see you Qs and Looking forward to responding. It,s late here and rack time for me. I posting now so you'll know I'm here and not use time waiting for now. Be aware--that we are coming from a different interpretation and understanding of the book. The answers may/will not be as you expect. I want to thank you for your efforts,and appreciate this opportunity you provided. I do a bit of gardening each morning while it's cooler. I'll try not to terry. I'll be here in the morning.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers


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Old Seer wrote:tonyjeffers

Old Seer wrote:

tonyjeffers wrote:

Old Seer,

Thanks for your reply,

You said it would basically take a book for you to pose a mission statement, so I guess the best I can do is pick at you with some questions.  It's gotten boring around here lately so hopefully at least some good ideas or new questions can arise here.

As i said in the other thread, excuse my attitude in my original post above. Auraujo was a bit annoying. Also I wrote that question without giving much thought to any details as you can tell. Iwbiek was kind enough to elaborate on it a bit. I'm just saying don't let it reflect my knowledge of the bible.  I don't claim to be any kind of expert, but as a former christian I know much more than what I wrote above.  I guess you would have to have been involved in the discussions with Auraujo that led me to post this thread in the first place to understand.

You said that your studies were over so I assume you and your group are well set on what you 'believe' and 'know to be true' so I wonder if you can answer the question in the original post to start with. Of course feel free to add in what you think or believe should be added concerning civilization, government, etc.  

All i ask is that you hold to my obvious requirement of 'NUMBERING' . Whatever is impossible for you to number just add in a short commentary reason as to why and move on to the next numbered step.

I have other questions concerning your answer from above but I will separate posts as to not mix and complicate things too much and to make it easier to address.

Thank you.

I see you Qs and Looking forward to responding. It,s late here and rack time for me. I posting now so you'll know I'm here and not use time waiting for now. Be aware--that we are coming from a different interpretation and understanding of the book. The answers may/will not be as you expect. I want to thank you for your efforts,and appreciate this opportunity you provided. I do a bit of gardening each morning while it's cooler. I'll try not to terry. I'll be here in the morning.

Oh no hurry,   And there is nothing really standard that one could expect.  In fact, I've never even gotten any type of christian or theist to give even a reply of "nobody knows" or " only god knows" etc.  It's not like I have a ground-breaking question here that just blows everything out of the water, but even when asking people this in person I've never gotten a single word uttered that was relevant to the question.  Especially the people who already have me condemned to hell for eternity should have a clue to how their story plays out.

Happy gardening. I will be fishing until the sun starts to bake me.   As for tonight I will be pondering some questions relevant to your original discussion above.

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


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Subject-Line attributed to Old Seer

Old Seer wrote:

I see you Qs and Looking forward to responding. It,s late here and rack time for me. I posting now so you'll know I'm here and not use time waiting for now. Be aware--that we are coming from a different interpretation and understanding of the book. The answers may/will not be as you expect. I want to thank you for your efforts,and appreciate this opportunity you provided. I do a bit of gardening each morning while it's cooler. I'll try not to terry. I'll be here in the morning.

   OS-  I doubt you remember but A_Nony_Mouse made the statement your interpretation of 'JC' shows "no connection to the words attributed to him in the Gospel", as he put it.  Might you explain why he would have said this ? Given a difference between Yahweh and 'JC', in the group,. I recall you made a difference between Yahweh and 'JC' in at least two posts.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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From what I can make of this

danatemporary wrote:


 
    
Subject-Line attributed to Old Seer

Old Seer wrote:

I see you Qs and Looking forward to responding. It,s late here and rack time for me. I posting now so you'll know I'm here and not use time waiting for now. Be aware--that we are coming from a different interpretation and understanding of the book. The answers may/will not be as you expect. I want to thank you for your efforts,and appreciate this opportunity you provided. I do a bit of gardening each morning while it's cooler. I'll try not to terry. I'll be here in the morning.

   OS-  I doubt you remember but A_Nony_Mouse made the statement your interpretation of 'JC' shows "no connection to the words attributed to him in the Gospel", as he put it.  Might you explain why he would have said this ? Given a difference between Yahweh and 'JC', in the group,. I recall you made a difference between Yahweh and 'JC' in at least two posts.

the Mouse would be correct. But, the Mouse is familiar with the Euro interpretation of the book which is abject nonsense. We have a different knowledge of the book then the Euros. There-fore there is a disconnect between our understanding and theirs. The label Yahweh is a term of more recent times. Yahweh, Jehovah, and Adam can be different applications of use. The Jews of today could give a more accurate explanation. There would be/is a difference between Yahweh and JC. The term Yahweh didn't exist at the time of JC. There can mean or be a difference between Yahweh and Jehovah. Westerners think that the Hebrew culture is parallel to their,s , one doesn't fit the other very well. Westerners are expecting Middle Easterners to be like them--they're not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Standby

harleysportster wrote:

 He'll have to pray about it first.  Pray that his answers blow us away and lead us to the TRUTH ! 

Give yourself time and--in time you'll get it. It'll take a bit. Remember--it took us eight years. It would be four but correspondence was by Currier Subtract Currier time. being that we made the long hike it shouldn't be to hard to understand of you apply the will to learn.Negative mentality will be a hindrance.

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Yes, you do

tonyjeffers wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

tonyjeffers wrote:

Old Seer,

Thanks for your reply,

You said it would basically take a book for you to pose a mission statement, so I guess the best I can do is pick at you with some questions.  It's gotten boring around here lately so hopefully at least some good ideas or new questions can arise here.

As i said in the other thread, excuse my attitude in my original post above. Auraujo was a bit annoying. Also I wrote that question without giving much thought to any details as you can tell. Iwbiek was kind enough to elaborate on it a bit. I'm just saying don't let it reflect my knowledge of the bible.  I don't claim to be any kind of expert, but as a former christian I know much more than what I wrote above.  I guess you would have to have been involved in the discussions with Auraujo that led me to post this thread in the first place to understand.

You said that your studies were over so I assume you and your group are well set on what you 'believe' and 'know to be true' so I wonder if you can answer the question in the original post to start with. Of course feel free to add in what you think or believe should be added concerning civilization, government, etc.  

All i ask is that you hold to my obvious requirement of 'NUMBERING' . Whatever is impossible for you to number just add in a short commentary reason as to why and move on to the next numbered step.

I have other questions concerning your answer from above but I will separate posts as to not mix and complicate things too much and to make it easier to address.

Thank you.

I see you Qs and Looking forward to responding. It,s late here and rack time for me. I posting now so you'll know I'm here and not use time waiting for now. Be aware--that we are coming from a different interpretation and understanding of the book. The answers may/will not be as you expect. I want to thank you for your efforts,and appreciate this opportunity you provided. I do a bit of gardening each morning while it's cooler. I'll try not to terry. I'll be here in the morning.

Oh no hurry,   And there is nothing really standard that one could expect.  In fact, I've never even gotten any type of christian or theist to give even a reply of "nobody knows" or " only god knows" etc.  It's not like I have a ground-breaking question here that just blows everything out of the water, but even when asking people this in person I've never gotten a single word uttered that was relevant to the question.  Especially the people who already have me condemned to hell for eternity should have a clue to how their story plays out.

Happy gardening. I will be fishing until the sun starts to bake me.   As for tonight I will be pondering some questions relevant to your original discussion above.

Have ground breaking questions. 

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers


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Ok good.

iwbiek wrote:

no problem.  i actually found this shit somehow logical too once upon a time, so you're not alone.  i was a hardcore pre-millennial, king james-only, scofield-reading, anti-catholic, dispensational, once saved-always saved, predestinarian baptist fundy.

oh, and i was a ray comfort fan.

then one day i decided i didn't want to be an asshole anymore, thus began my gradual deconversion.  it started with reading christian mysticism, then other mystical traditions (taoism and zen in particulae), then i went from fundy to calvinist evangelical (i dropped all the eschatological hair-splitting and king james-only baggage), then i went to being a liberal (and i guess rather pelagian) christian who believed jesus was the best of all possble ways, then an extremely liberal christian who believed jesus was only one of many equally viable ways, then finally i just said fuck it.

the whole process took about 5 years, i guess.

Now try ours. It will take time to form in the old beanery but it won't take 5 years. If you've spent 5 years on shear nonsense as you did be patient enough to give it a month or two. This is not a fast process, the speed of learning depends upon the the persons ability to comprehension and to learn.

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Why wouldn't I.

Watcher wrote:

I bet he won't number anything.

Any takers?

I'll take that bet---5 bucks.

I numbered his other questions why not these. ?

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No

harleysportster wrote:

 He'll have to pray about it first.  Pray that his answers blow us away and lead us to the TRUTH ! 

I don't pray, as praying is common;y practiced/done. At least not anymore then Atheists do. Praying is nothing more then a peocess of self assurance or looking for a solution to a problem, or consoling
 a trouble of the mind. Everyone does it.

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Old Seer

Old Seer wrote:

harleysportster wrote:

 He'll have to pray about it first.  Pray that his answers blow us away and lead us to the TRUTH ! 

I don't pray, as praying is common;y practiced/done. At least not anymore then Atheists do. Praying is nothing more then a peocess of self assurance or looking for a solution to a problem, or consoling
 a trouble of the mind. Everyone does it.

 

Isn't praying at the core of christian beliefs?

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Old Seer wrote:Now try ours.

Old Seer wrote:

Now try ours. It will take time to form in the old beanery but it won't take 5 years. If you've spent 5 years on shear nonsense as you did be patient enough to give it a month or two. This is not a fast process, the speed of learning depends upon the the persons ability to comprehension and to learn.

pal, i un-learned and there's no goddamn way i'm regressing, not back to my old shit, nor to yours, nor to anyone else's.  i think you misunderstood my post.  the "nonsense" took only a matter of months to take root in my teenage brain.  it took me 5 years to get rid of the nonsense.  i didn't go through that to have some quack put another brand of nonsense right back in.

in the immortal words of townes van zandt,

 

 

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


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I don't expect

iwbiek wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

Now try ours. It will take time to form in the old beanery but it won't take 5 years. If you've spent 5 years on shear nonsense as you did be patient enough to give it a month or two. This is not a fast process, the speed of learning depends upon the the persons ability to comprehension and to learn.

pal, i un-learned and there's no goddamn way i'm regressing, not back to my old shit, nor to yours, nor to anyone else's.  i think you misunderstood my post.  the "nonsense" took only a matter of months to take root in my teenage brain.  it took me 5 years to get rid of the nonsense.  i didn't go through that to have some quack put another brand of nonsense right back in.

in the immortal words of townes van zandt,

 

 

You to put anything in your brain you don't need our want. I expect your inquizitiveness to trap your self about two months from now or maybe three.. That is if you remain on this thread and comprehend my postings. If you don't---then it won't happen.

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Old Seer wrote:That is if

Old Seer wrote:

That is if you remain on this thread and comprehend my postings. If you don't---then it won't happen.

don't flatter yourself, hoss, you're not that opaque.  i understand your posts just fine--i simply dismiss them, in purest hui neng fashion.  and considering i've got summer english camps to run, property to maintain, a son to raise, and a wife to please, i doubt i'll remain on this thread any longer than most others.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


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@OldSeer Are you going to

@OldSeer

 

Are you going to give a short summary of your mystical beliefs or not? Your little references to your superior religion are getting annoying. Stop just insinuating you know better and put down some actual material.

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POE

Old Seer wrote:

harleysportster wrote:

 He'll have to pray about it first.  Pray that his answers blow us away and lead us to the TRUTH ! 

Give yourself time and--in time you'll get it. It'll take a bit. Remember--it took us eight years. It would be four but correspondence was by Currier Subtract Currier time. being that we made the long hike it shouldn't be to hard to understand of you apply the will to learn.Negative mentality will be a hindrance.

 

This is over the top mumbo-jumbo.  You are either POE, POS, TROLL, or nutcase.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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Question -1

tonyjeffers wrote:

OK araujo, this is mainly for you to start, but I'm sure Jean will be happy to give you some guidance should you need it. 

 You claim to have all the answers and have it very clear in your head how the whole scenario of how things are going to play out. You also seem to think that we all must be blind and dumb not to see how simple it has all been spelled out for us. So why not enlighten us instead of just writing us all off as morons. Would you mind spelling it all out for us in plain English the whole end time, judgment day, heaven and hell scenario?

No need to make it too fancy, just something us morons can understand.  Start with our present existence and end with God's final reign of a new heaven and new earth .  Be sure not to leave anyone out like the 144,000 and those who may or may not be already in heaven or hell, all the people who have long been dead etc. And PLEASE NUMBER EACH STEP to make it easy for us to follow.

I'm not just being an ass here. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has been confused by the whole story, even if we have read the whole bible 200 times over.  IF you believe in this so whole-heatedly, I would think it would be worth a few moments of your time.

Please just pretend we all are new to these ideas and are of a simple high-school education. It should go something like this and I cannot stress how important it is to NUMBER EACH STEP :

 

(this is NOT a set order of course-just a sample of events as I thought of them)

1. Here we are now (we have those who have been presented with the gospel and those who never got the chance to hear about Jesus)

2. The false messiah will come

3. Jesus will return

4. All those who are dead will re-materialize

5. Satan reigns for 1,000 years

6. everyone will stand before the Lord one by one to be judged

7. those who are already in heaven or hell will ???? and the 144,000 will ?????  and the rest of the Jews will ?????

8. all non-believers will be cast into a lake of fire along with everyone from every other religion

9. You and all the REAL Christians will be (where ??) forever with God.

 

You get my drift. This should be easy for you. I would really appreciate it and I'm sure it will start some good conversations. And PLEASE NUMBER EACH STEP!!!!

 

Be advised, we recognize there two different interpretations of the book. The Euro (or their,s) I will reffer to as "Brand X". Our,s I will referr to as Brand-A. Then there is Brand -B, the Hebrew understanding which is akin to Brand-X. Brand-B is variances between Hebrew and Euro thinking, but they have it misunderstood also. The logic of it is- if they lost the knowledge of God they couldn't possibly have it right because they would have to re-acquire that knowledge to have it correct. Brand -B very likely won't come into play very often.

Also be advised that We are not Christians, Deists, Theists, or Atheists. When bringing up the term "Christian" be Specific as to whether you are referring to X, A, or B. The reasons we are not Christians is 1- we don't want to be (it's a Choice thing). 2-To be Christian is a dangerous thing to become-it's not likely one would survive in the world of Brand-X. Brand-A produces a passive entity. That won't work along side Brand -X or B . We reserve the right to be animal just as well as the next guy. The animal is what protects you in a world of force and counter force. We retain the right of self defense. There-fore then--there are no floks on the planet practicing Christianity. Theism is the study of God, which doesn't make sense because it takes knowledge of God to be a Christian. If one is studying the properties of God then one does not "have" the knowledge of God, there-fore Brand -X cannot be Christianity. If you refer to Christianity rather then Brand-X I may get confused. Brand-X as Christianity does not exist, there-fore the God of Brand-X cannot exist.

 If you wonder why we on on this site---JC advises- take it to the outcasts of the world.---WELL.

1- seems to be a statement rather then a question. Clarify please.

2- Yes- But not in the way Brand-X presents it, or understands it. Here's the short of it. This ocurrs after the end times or near the completion and is in the last part of the events of the end, then armaggedon occurs. . The word arrives (same as JC- or Messia or Knowledge of God. If the loss of the knowledge of God creates the problems of the world, then what would fix them)- The word shows all to be wrong, huge embarrasment takes place big silence everywhere. (see the book of REV)- people grow into regarding all powers principlaities and authorties to be fools- people fall away from government. Governmnt is removed, or becomes inert, and not paid attention to.- The tribulation time. people begin to adhere to the new word. It's a tuff decision to make. One must choose one world over the other. Which will it be. - some choose Brand-A, some stay with Brand-X. Most migrate to Band-A. - peace breaks out everywhere. People become what they want to as interference from authorities is moot. ( Being of Gods but yet holding to none)- Another silence ( this one is not in the book) then many want to go back to Brand-X. Brand -A isn't as much fun as Brand-X. The greater number want to get back to dommination, lording it over, being the biggest buck in the herd. All Brand-X want to dominate but not want to be dominated. THIS is when the false messiah shows up. many want to gather floks to their ideas creating religions of there own making. It becomes as the confusion of Babylon. The texture of the people turns to evil upon each other, the love of the greater number grows cold. Brand-A withdraws and goes into hiding for safty. ( When you see the abomnation of desolation standing in the holy place ) - Armaggedon- the masses get into a shoot out--no government to stop it. This also happened in the days of Noah.

The false messiahs generate a hatred of Brand-A

3- Yes, but not as according to the tenents of Brand-X. Brand-A --->The word of God and the Messiah are the same. It's not an individual within a physical body. It's knowledge, an enlightening. ( JC, As the light comes from the east clear to the west so shall the coming of the son of man be. Note the term, "son of man". Ask about that later. It is given for a man to die once etc, he paid his dues. Q-3 also ties to Q-2 Word is not the physical body, it's communication. Word also, in the beginning as Genesis

4-, Yes, but we don't know how that works, We have some clues.  Our psycho smurffs are dealing with that at present. And no, not "all. In the book resurrections are to take place. There are two types to consider. A personal which is a change from what one is now to Brand-A. No physical death in this one, it's a change of personality, mental. The other, a physical, a return of the spiritual to re-inhabit a physical. In this case I'm submitting Brand -A,s interpretation of the book, we have no positive understanding what or how. This requires one of those faith deals that on this deal is kinda hard to generate. I have problems in having faith in something i don't understand. Any faith on my part would have to be a prospectus.

5- Unknown, that remains to be seen. But that is to happen after armaggedon. Brand A lives OK for a while and what this looks like is the development of a tendency to return to Brand -X Apparently they change course. It looks to be a temptation which is thwarted in progress. 1000= an unspecified period of time. This usage is akin to, I told you a 1000 times, which of course isn't the case. It's an expression of repedidness. But in Hebrew 1000 is a lot as in ancient times it wasn't used much, according to us. Back then they hardly had 1000 of anything. 1000s of 1000s is eternity, an expression of quantity that can't be counted.

6- Baaaaaagh, Brand -X is way out of context with this one. eeeeeooooooeeeeooooeeee. UFO in sight, lock and load. or-- Ruuuuuuun. Brand-X has the uncanny ability to make any God according to their own personality. This is an extending of their own judicial operations and proceedures into where they don't belong. Everyone alive at the time of the arrival/knowing of the word runs smack into a judgement. The knowledge of God causes one to see the self for what one is. YOU, then judge yourself against the precepts. The judgement you make is deciding which way you prefer to go---with yourself. (same as tribulation). This isn't about the other guy, this is about you. Let the "other" guy make up his own mind.

7- There isn't anyone permanently in heaven as yet (except JC)and there's plenty of floks in hell. Hell is the same as dead. There's cemeteries everywhere. Everyone is continually jumping in and out of Heaven. The trick is to stay there. If sex puts you in Heaven try to stay there with it and see how long it lasts. Material and physical things aren't reliable sources of permenent happiness. If your new car puts you there for a while, enjoy it, you can always drive it again tomorrow. Heaven is a mental condition of happiness or pleasure. You've been trained to be happy for a reason. There doesn't have to be a reason to be happy. Watch a baby for a while and you'll get the idea. Babies don't need a reason they simply can be happy. Death is a state of non-existence, the same state as before you were conceived. You weren't existing before that so there is no difference. There is a consideration of hell in that one is denied resurrection. That's similar to the lake of fire in Rev.  a perminent  condition of destruction=no chance of resurrection. Very few at this time will be elligable for that. The most likely for that condition are polititians, religious leaders, industrailists, and the big financeres of the world and the biggest buck in the herd.

!44000. The number is attributable to creation. Almost all in the bible has creation in mind. Again we have 1000's. The 144 is 12X12=144. There are 12 things said which is the word of God. Remember JC, the word of God. son of man (ask about that later) The 1000= eternity, forever. This is about people, not 144000 of them but of one's own spiritual nature. Creation is the making of Adam, man. Adam isn't any spiritually differently made then you. But Adam is a different person. He/it/them is a person minus the the influence animal traits. There is no genetic or spiritual difference then you. You are made spiritually of these 144 possible traits. In other ancient religions there may be less depending upon belief and who is doing the counting. The word of god creates Adam but with a bit different personality then people of present.

8- No. The book of Rev is tuff nut to crack. What it is, is one mans rendition of the end time in symbols. We recognize the symbols which we see as of civilization. The mission of Brand-A is to destroy civilization.  In this book that is understood to be happening. No one is physically going to be thrown into a lake of fire, or a pot of boiling beans for that matter. There isn't anyone to do the throwing  The term "man" can be singular or multiple. At times it's used as a singular but expresses multiple. IE, that man will be thrown into the lake of fire etc. We are not done with this book by the way. This is a guess from the way other interpretations are from Brand-A. As used man in this case could mean the precepts on which a civilized person is made up of. This looks as those precepts are being eliminated. The lake of fire denotes permanantcy. There is also usages from Brand-B. Brand-B is the basis of the symbols. We're relying on others to find some of this book when they understand Brand-A. More minds find more things. No, we don't know everything.

9- Oh hey, that's an easy one. How about right here. The here-after In Brand-A is after civilization is gone. The destruction of the world in Brand -A is not the planet. The God of Brand-X does not exist. In Brand-B there's no reference to "God". The term isn't used and isn't in the Hebrew Numeric alphabet. God is a Euro term for forces they could not explain or comprehend. We can't see where it has any place in the book. We're forced to use it because everyone else does. There's no here-after out in space that we can find or imagine. The here-after for the dead is, dead. Resurrection has yet to be comprehended.

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cj wrote:This is over the

cj wrote:

This is over the top mumbo-jumbo.  You are either POE, POS, TROLL, or nutcase.

 

 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Then

Beyond Saving wrote:

cj wrote:

This is over the top mumbo-jumbo.  You are either POE, POS, TROLL, or nutcase.

 

 

it's not for you.Yet. I gave our translation of part of the book. I did not present it as true. or make any claim that it is true.

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Old Seer wrote:Beyond Saving

Old Seer wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

cj wrote:

This is over the top mumbo-jumbo.  You are either POE, POS, TROLL, or nutcase.

 

 

it's not for you.Yet. 

I would say never, but my grandfather did go off and join a militia 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Old Seer- 

First off, my original 1-9 were not individual questions. It was merely a generic sample list of events to serve as an example of how a reply should explain the bibles (or one's interpretation of) sequence of events will play out from here to eternity.-  Iwbiek in post 3 gave his reply of how he thinks most 'fundies' see it.   But no worries, you still get an 'A' for numbering and effort.  I'll do my best with it.  However, if you would still like to make a short summarized list similar to Iwbiek's but according to Brand A's interpretations then you will have successfully completed the original assignment (question).

 

As I'm sure you expected here,  my skeptic nature leads me to what my first thoughts are about any ideas on religion- "What are they sellin' ?" and "Take me to your leader". But I'm always interested in how people came about their beleifs and where or who  there derived from.  And history has taught us that there is always an angle.

So my second thought was- I find it hard to believe that a group of people, after all these years, can all have the same agreed collective interpretation of ancient text that doesn't jibe with what billions have already spent their whole lives on, without some extraordinary find or breakthrough that could justify it (Picture Tom Hanks in a new movie un-earthing the cypher left by aliens that finally put logic to the madness), unless there is some underlying malicious intent from an originator-even if that be only narcicistic.

Old Seer- "The club was of 2 Psycho smurfs a physics smurf etc. he called it a smuffdom because the smurfs were on TV at the time (1985). Me being a bible scholar and physicist I presented my problem with Biblical Creation. I thought that was the end of it and forgot about it. A month later the waitress handed me a packet of papers and----we were off and on the way. Eight years later we were done"  

  Was there a "eureka" moment or did these papers give you instructions on how you should interpret the text?  You see what I'm getting at?  I'm just having trouble seeing you all studying individually over the course of years and comparing notes every once in a while and you all saying "ah, yes, that's the way I read it too. "  I have a feeling it went more like  "ah when I read it like the instructions say to it makes more sense. And the more we all agree, it even makes more sense"  I'm curious as to what the context and theme of this packet of papers was.

I see no conscious malicious intent yet.  Unless the answer to this million dollar question is "yes". Do you pay dues to be a member of your club?  Or do you contribute anything else non-monetary?

 

I'll have more questions regarding specific context of your replies later.

Thanks

 

 

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


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Doesn't look like it

Old Seer wrote:
The label Yahweh is a term of more recent times.  The term Yahweh didn't exist at the time of JC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint_manuscripts#Greek_Septuagint_manuscripts_with_Hebrew_YHWH

 

http://www.eliyah.com/lxx.html

According to scholars, no copies of the Septuagint dated before the mid-2nd century CE/AD substitutes the Tetragrammaton (Yahweh's name) with "Kyrios" (the Greek word Lord). 

 


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I,ll comment on the Smurfs

tonyjeffers wrote:

Old Seer- 

First off, my original 1-9 were not individual questions. It was merely a generic sample list of events to serve as an example of how a reply should explain the bibles (or one's interpretation of) sequence of events will play out from here to eternity.-  Iwbiek in post 3 gave his reply of how he thinks most 'fundies' see it.   But no worries, you still get an 'A' for numbering and effort.  I'll do my best with it.  However, if you would still like to make a short summarized list similar to Iwbiek's but according to Brand A's interpretations then you will have successfully completed the original assignment (question).

 

As I'm sure you expected here,  my skeptic nature leads me to what my first thoughts are about any ideas on religion- "What are they sellin' ?" and "Take me to your leader". But I'm always interested in how people came about their beleifs and where or who  there derived from.  And history has taught us that there is always an angle.

So my second thought was- I find it hard to believe that a group of people, after all these years, can all have the same agreed collective interpretation of ancient text that doesn't jibe with what billions have already spent their whole lives on, without some extraordinary find or breakthrough that could justify it (Picture Tom Hanks in a new movie un-earthing the cypher left by aliens that finally put logic to the madness), unless there is some underlying malicious intent from an originator-even if that be only narcicistic.

Old Seer- "The club was of 2 Psycho smurfs a physics smurf etc. he called it a smuffdom because the smurfs were on TV at the time (1985). Me being a bible scholar and physicist I presented my problem with Biblical Creation. I thought that was the end of it and forgot about it. A month later the waitress handed me a packet of papers and----we were off and on the way. Eight years later we were done"  

  Was there a "eureka" moment or did these papers give you instructions on how you should interpret the text?  You see what I'm getting at?  I'm just having trouble seeing you all studying individually over the course of years and comparing notes every once in a while and you all saying "ah, yes, that's the way I read it too. "  I have a feeling it went more like  "ah when I read it like the instructions say to it makes more sense. And the more we all agree, it even makes more sense"  I'm curious as to what the context and theme of this packet of papers was.

I see no conscious malicious intent yet.  Unless the answer to this million dollar question is "yes". Do you pay dues to be a member of your club?  Or do you contribute anything else non-monetary?

 

I'll have more questions regarding specific context of your replies later.

Thanks

 

 

now because it looks as that is the prime interest at present. I'll look over the other things tomorrow. We aren't special that we know of, nor trying to be. This is a group of guys going on adventures or explorations and are of various professions. I have ever been out in the field with them. I don't know what their finances were about. I've never paid dues. I doubt if they all went on jaunts at the same time. They are as other outdoor clubs would be, with snowmobiles, ATVs etc. there's nothing or anyone outside the ordinary. It goes as I posted previous. It was a chanced meeting of someone going through town a few times on his sales route. he was a member of the outdoor club. He explained the club to me. I really wasn't interested in joining the club. a typical bunch of guys doing things they were interested in. Just as any sports club would do. The uniqueness if any is because they were of different professions but  same interests in nature. The professions they were in allowed them the finances to go and do things. I've never had that amount of money. It looks to me as though they all became aquainted via the sales guy. I think he was an insurance or stock salesman. (I' trying to clear this up so I'm going to go a bit extensive to get it done). (I'm not perturbed at all so don't think that, it's just that this is nothing special to me) I think he is the one that promoted the idea of forming a club to the others. The club was formed long before I joined. The members obviously were his customers.  Their interest in me was because of being a bible scholar. That interest extends from my first meeting with the Sales Smurf on accounts of my problem with Biblical Creation. He was interested- I put a few things on a napkin and he left with it. A month later when he went through he dropped off what "they" think, their input. The Physics Smurf agreed with the Engineer Smurf and so ,on---I was right, this turkey isn't going to fly. Ok what is it. I didn't care really I've had it. The book was a farce and I spent enough time on it. Then they began asking me questions, and finally the whole book was gone through and a new or proper interpretation was acquired. What are they doing today---What everyone else is doing. They're going about their lives normally as retired floks. There's nothing else to do. I'm detecting that we are expected to be someones special. We're not. What's special if anything is the interpretations. This is the best i can do for now. I hope it satisfies.

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No profits necessary.

tonyjeffers wrote:

Old Seer- 

First off, my original 1-9 were not individual questions. It was merely a generic sample list of events to serve as an example of how a reply should explain the bibles (or one's interpretation of) sequence of events will play out from here to eternity.-  Iwbiek in post 3 gave his reply of how he thinks most 'fundies' see it.   But no worries, you still get an 'A' for numbering and effort.  I'll do my best with it.  However, if you would still like to make a short summarized list similar to Iwbiek's but according to Brand A's interpretations then you will have successfully completed the original assignment (question).

 

As I'm sure you expected here,  my skeptic nature leads me to what my first thoughts are about any ideas on religion- "What are they sellin' ?" and "Take me to your leader". But I'm always interested in how people came about their beleifs and where or who  there derived from.  And history has taught us that there is always an angle.

So my second thought was- I find it hard to believe that a group of people, after all these years, can all have the same agreed collective interpretation of ancient text that doesn't jibe with what billions have already spent their whole lives on, without some extraordinary find or breakthrough that could justify it (Picture Tom Hanks in a new movie un-earthing the cypher left by aliens that finally put logic to the madness), unless there is some underlying malicious intent from an originator-even if that be only narcicistic.

Old Seer- "The club was of 2 Psycho smurfs a physics smurf etc. he called it a smuffdom because the smurfs were on TV at the time (1985). Me being a bible scholar and physicist I presented my problem with Biblical Creation. I thought that was the end of it and forgot about it. A month later the waitress handed me a packet of papers and----we were off and on the way. Eight years later we were done"  

  Was there a "eureka" moment or did these papers give you instructions on how you should interpret the text?  You see what I'm getting at?  I'm just having trouble seeing you all studying individually over the course of years and comparing notes every once in a while and you all saying "ah, yes, that's the way I read it too. "  I have a feeling it went more like  "ah when I read it like the instructions say to it makes more sense. And the more we all agree, it even makes more sense"  I'm curious as to what the context and theme of this packet of papers was.

I see no conscious malicious intent yet.  Unless the answer to this million dollar question is "yes". Do you pay dues to be a member of your club?  Or do you contribute anything else non-monetary?

 

I'll have more questions regarding specific context of your replies later.

Thanks

 

 

There's no one to pay. Brand-A doesn't have any affiliation with the propagation of money. It is not incorporated into it's beliefs. We're stuck with it, and we have to use the system as anyone else, it's the one that's here. JC was also stuck with it.   We're not gathering a congregation-that's a no-no in Brand-A. There's no churches to build, (JC---> You see all of these great works do you not, there will come a day [Day can also mean enlightenment] when not one stone will be left here that will not be thrown down.) Why would we build churches if what we're setting out for propagation would destroy them anyway. There's no one to pay, keep your money, use it until the times change, accept the situation at hand (OT- There will come the day when they will throw their money into the streets) We received free, we give free. What would we do with the money when we set in motion the means to destroy the system that uses it. I'll cover another topic later from you post. It'll be on "what are they selling". It's obvious but maybe I can add some insights.

 

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It's getting like Archeology.

x wrote:

Old Seer wrote:
The label Yahweh is a term of more recent times.  The term Yahweh didn't exist at the time of JC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint_manuscripts#Greek_Septuagint_manuscripts_with_Hebrew_YHWH

 

http://www.eliyah.com/lxx.html

According to scholars, no copies of the Septuagint dated before the mid-2nd century CE/AD substitutes the Tetragrammaton (Yahweh's name) with "Kyrios" (the Greek word Lord). 

 

There's some many floks looking everywhere finding so much it's gotten confusing. Someone goes out into the desert and finds another pile of rocks that dates to XXXX and according to him/her it's the first civilization. It gets down to---who built the first building.  Thanks for you info.

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What are they selling

Old Seer wrote:

tonyjeffers wrote:

Old Seer- 

First off, my original 1-9 were not individual questions. It was merely a generic sample list of events to serve as an example of how a reply should explain the bibles (or one's interpretation of) sequence of events will play out from here to eternity.-  Iwbiek in post 3 gave his reply of how he thinks most 'fundies' see it.   But no worries, you still get an 'A' for numbering and effort.  I'll do my best with it.  However, if you would still like to make a short summarized list similar to Iwbiek's but according to Brand A's interpretations then you will have successfully completed the original assignment (question).

 

As I'm sure you expected here,  my skeptic nature leads me to what my first thoughts are about any ideas on religion- "What are they sellin' ?" and "Take me to your leader". But I'm always interested in how people came about their beleifs and where or who  there derived from.  And history has taught us that there is always an angle.

So my second thought was- I find it hard to believe that a group of people, after all these years, can all have the same agreed collective interpretation of ancient text that doesn't jibe with what billions have already spent their whole lives on, without some extraordinary find or breakthrough that could justify it (Picture Tom Hanks in a new movie un-earthing the cypher left by aliens that finally put logic to the madness), unless there is some underlying malicious intent from an originator-even if that be only narcicistic.

Old Seer- "The club was of 2 Psycho smurfs a physics smurf etc. he called it a smuffdom because the smurfs were on TV at the time (1985). Me being a bible scholar and physicist I presented my problem with Biblical Creation. I thought that was the end of it and forgot about it. A month later the waitress handed me a packet of papers and----we were off and on the way. Eight years later we were done"  

  Was there a "eureka" moment or did these papers give you instructions on how you should interpret the text?  You see what I'm getting at?  I'm just having trouble seeing you all studying individually over the course of years and comparing notes every once in a while and you all saying "ah, yes, that's the way I read it too. "  I have a feeling it went more like  "ah when I read it like the instructions say to it makes more sense. And the more we all agree, it even makes more sense"  I'm curious as to what the context and theme of this packet of papers was.

I see no conscious malicious intent yet.  Unless the answer to this million dollar question is "yes". Do you pay dues to be a member of your club?  Or do you contribute anything else non-monetary?

 

I'll have more questions regarding specific context of your replies later.

Thanks

 

 

There's no one to pay. Brand-A doesn't have any affiliation with the propagation of money. It is not incorporated into it's beliefs. We're stuck with it, and we have to use the system as anyone else, it's the one that's here. JC was also stuck with it.   We're not gathering a congregation-that's a no-no in Brand-A. There's no churches to build, (JC---> You see all of these great works do you not, there will come a day [Day can also mean enlightenment] when not one stone will be left here that will not be thrown down.) Why would we build churches if what we're setting out for propagation would destroy them anyway. There's no one to pay, keep your money, use it until the times change, accept the situation at hand (OT- There will come the day when they will throw their money into the streets) We received free, we give free. What would we do with the money when we set in motion the means to destroy the system that uses it. I'll cover another topic later from you post. It'll be on "what are they selling". It's obvious but maybe I can add some insights.

 

SNAKE OIL. It's the business of of making money from words. It's Brand-X which includes civilization. Everyone in the world today is Brand-X. I am Brand-X in the process of transition. The over-all religion world over is civilization. All belief is religion and all religion is belief. One cannot say I believe that over there and say it's religion, and then believe that over the other way and say it's not religion. One's religion is what makes one the person that one is. Everyone is a victim of someone else,s imagination. If a leader is an idiot the followers are idiots. Leaders make their followers as they. Civilization is a liars paradise (consider the polititian), a fools parade.

By the way, there are  three Psycho Smurfs. One was added last winter.

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Guitar strummers

iwbiek wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

Now try ours. It will take time to form in the old beanery but it won't take 5 years. If you've spent 5 years on shear nonsense as you did be patient enough to give it a month or two. This is not a fast process, the speed of learning depends upon the the persons ability to comprehension and to learn.

pal, i un-learned and there's no goddamn way i'm regressing, not back to my old shit, nor to yours, nor to anyone else's.  i think you misunderstood my post.  the "nonsense" took only a matter of months to take root in my teenage brain.  it took me 5 years to get rid of the nonsense.  i didn't go through that to have some quack put another brand of nonsense right back in.

in the immortal words of townes van zandt,

 

 

aren't solving a thing. I used to be a guitar strummer, I didn't solve anything. If my guitar planging didn't save the world how is this fella's guitar wire bending going to make any difference. Music is nothing more then organized noise. Is it any different then bird tweeting. Using it to generate consolation also creates confidence in falsehoods. It creates mental mud for intellectual tires to get stuck in. Been there, done that.  Regards.

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Old Seer wrote:iwbiek

Old Seer wrote:

iwbiek wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

Now try ours. It will take time to form in the old beanery but it won't take 5 years. If you've spent 5 years on shear nonsense as you did be patient enough to give it a month or two. This is not a fast process, the speed of learning depends upon the the persons ability to comprehension and to learn.

pal, i un-learned and there's no goddamn way i'm regressing, not back to my old shit, nor to yours, nor to anyone else's.  i think you misunderstood my post.  the "nonsense" took only a matter of months to take root in my teenage brain.  it took me 5 years to get rid of the nonsense.  i didn't go through that to have some quack put another brand of nonsense right back in.

in the immortal words of townes van zandt,

 

 

aren't solving a thing. I used to be a guitar strummer, I didn't solve anything. If my guitar planging didn't save the world how is this fella's guitar wire bending going to make any difference. Music is nothing more then organized noise. Is it any different then bird tweeting. Using it to generate consolation also creates confidence in falsehoods. It creates mental mud for intellectual tires to get stuck in. Been there, done that.  Regards.

 

Music can convey a message  directly and eloquently with and without the use of words. That's more than I can say for you.

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Old Seer

Old Seer wrote:

harleysportster wrote:

 He'll have to pray about it first.  Pray that his answers blow us away and lead us to the TRUTH ! 

Give yourself time and--in time you'll get it. It'll take a bit. Remember--it took us eight years. It would be four but correspondence was by Currier Subtract Currier time. being that we made the long hike it shouldn't be to hard to understand of you apply the will to learn.Negative mentality will be a hindrance.

That was a humorous poke at Arajuao, whom anyone can tell you asked for that due to some of his past posts, none of which were too nice. 

 

I am not giving time for any of this stuff that your talking about. I have got better things to do. 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Old Seer

I noticed something a little strange.

Old Seer, I pointed out before, and you explained why, that when I tracked your post history I saw that you have never started a single thread of your own.

I also pointed out in the past that 'Greatest I am' has never made a single comment in anyone else's threads but his own. He starts and stays in his own threads always.

This would make it very difficult to track and compare ideas when both never participate int the same threads.

When I tracked your posts I only found one communication between the two and that was just a one sentence remark from just the other day.

I also noticed that you sometimes end your posts with a salutation of "Regards" as does 'Greatest I am'.

I believe 'Greatest I am' has stated before to be part of 'Gnostic Christians' or an off-shoot of them, that is more opposed to christianity("Brand X&quotEye-wink  - I was confused by 'GIM's' whole thing so forgive any mis-interpretations. I don't expect to be corrected since this is not his thread. When I questioned him about the group, he also used the phrase "We Believe" as do you.

Is there some connection there or am I just imagining things?

 

 

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


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tonyjeffers wrote:I noticed

tonyjeffers wrote:

I noticed something a little strange.

Old Seer, I pointed out before, and you explained why, that when I tracked your post history I saw that you have never started a single thread of your own.

I also pointed out in the past that 'Greatest I am' has never made a single comment in anyone else's threads but his own. He starts and stays in his own threads always.

This would make it very difficult to track and compare ideas when both never participate int the same threads.

When I tracked your posts I only found one communication between the two and that was just a one sentence remark from just the other day.

I also noticed that you sometimes end your posts with a salutation of "Regards" as does 'Greatest I am'.

I believe 'Greatest I am' has stated before to be part of 'Gnostic Christians' or an off-shoot of them, that is more opposed to christianity("Brand X&quotEye-wink  - I was confused by 'GIM's' whole thing so forgive any mis-interpretations. I don't expect to be corrected since this is not his thread. When I questioned him about the group, he also used the phrase "We Believe" as do you.

Is there some connection there or am I just imagining things?

 

 

 

Hmm, the plot thickens.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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OK, Harley, I go over it.

harleysportster wrote:

tonyjeffers wrote:

I noticed something a little strange.

Old Seer, I pointed out before, and you explained why, that when I tracked your post history I saw that you have never started a single thread of your own.

I also pointed out in the past that 'Greatest I am' has never made a single comment in anyone else's threads but his own. He starts and stays in his own threads always.

This would make it very difficult to track and compare ideas when both never participate int the same threads.

When I tracked your posts I only found one communication between the two and that was just a one sentence remark from just the other day.

I also noticed that you sometimes end your posts with a salutation of "Regards" as does 'Greatest I am'.

I believe 'Greatest I am' has stated before to be part of 'Gnostic Christians' or an off-shoot of them, that is more opposed to Christianity("Brand X&quotEye-wink  - I was confused by 'GIM's' whole thing so forgive any mis-interpretations. I don't expect to be corrected since this is not his thread. When I questioned him about the group, he also used the phrase "We Believe" as do you.

Is there some connection there or am I just imagining things?

 

 

 

Hmm, the plot thickens.

No thread of my own: I thought of it but there's to much negative input. I figured all that will happen is condemnation, insults, rudeness, negative attitude and the like. I get enough of it as it is. Then, I have no idea what to start a thread off with. It wouldn't make any difference what I started it with, it would receive the same reaction. The question idea that Tony came up with is a far better deal then me starting a thread. I can answer questions easier then typing out a thread if one who reads it will only go to the second or third paragraph and then quite. It takes more then that to get a picture of what this is.   Bear in mind that I'm taken as a phoney, fraud and farce. Who would care to read beyond a few sentences when it takes more then a few to form a basic understanding. I think this Q&A idea is going to do the trick. The next thing is---if it goes will I be able to keep up. Your going to understand somewhere down the line why I couldn't start a thread.

Greatest I am: I didn't know he stays on his own thread. There's no affiliation with him/her to me. Regards is borrowed from him though. I was going to use the Smiling dealie because I wanted a means to  reflect my mental condition to convey a non-hostile post Flat words on screen have no voice temperament and can be taken as ill intent. His "regards" was a reminder that I use it quite often on a USMC forum. He's not one of us as we do our best to refrain from rudeness. I do get out of hand but not often. I think I have more then one post on his thread. None of our guys are gnostic Christians. At the moment we don't consider ourselves to be Christian. From what we assert there is only one kind of Christian possible, that would be Brand-A. To attach anything else to it automatically erases Christianity. Christianity is just that. There is no chocolate flavor. (NT- there is neither Greek nor Jew, Scythian nor Barbarian in Christianity). It's not a matter of genetics or anything else. It's soley about what manner of person one is. No one in our group wold be a Gnostic, nor would any have a reason to claim to be. Gnostic would mean--we don't have it correct. Gnosticism exists because they don't have it correct.

Believe: I endeavor to use the word sparingly. It's used to much when it doesn't need to be. I try to reserve it to use in conjunction with "in". But I'm a victim of times and process also. Such as this . Do I believe in Evolution. No. But is evolution true, yes, in my estimation it is. Evidence shows it. There's no need to believe "in" it. It will exist whether I believe in it or not. No need to attach "believe". Same thing with the universe. There's no advantage in believing it exists, but does it exist-yes. Material things don't normally need to be attached to "believe". Do I believe material exists-yes. But there's no need to believe "in" material. Attaching the "in" makes it a religion

Thanks Harley, Hope this clears things up. Regards.

Edit: I see the little smiley guy showed up. OK I'll use that then. It poped in there by itself when I used the : and the )

 

 

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I agree

ThunderJones wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

iwbiek wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

Now try ours. It will take time to form in the old beanery but it won't take 5 years. If you've spent 5 years on shear nonsense as you did be patient enough to give it a month or two. This is not a fast process, the speed of learning depends upon the the persons ability to comprehension and to learn.

pal, i un-learned and there's no goddamn way i'm regressing, not back to my old shit, nor to yours, nor to anyone else's.  i think you misunderstood my post.  the "nonsense" took only a matter of months to take root in my teenage brain.  it took me 5 years to get rid of the nonsense.  i didn't go through that to have some quack put another brand of nonsense right back in.

in the immortal words of townes van zandt,

 

 

aren't solving a thing. I used to be a guitar strummer, I didn't solve anything. If my guitar planging didn't save the world how is this fella's guitar wire bending going to make any difference. Music is nothing more then organized noise. Is it any different then bird tweeting. Using it to generate consolation also creates confidence in falsehoods. It creates mental mud for intellectual tires to get stuck in. Been there, done that.  Regards.

 

Music can convey a message  directly and eloquently with and without the use of words. That's more than I can say for you.

But it's to much used as a crutch. Poetry also. To much soothsaying puts the King to sleep. Smiling

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Old Seer wrote:Watcher

Old Seer wrote:

Watcher wrote:

I bet he won't number anything.

Any takers?

I'll take that bet---5 bucks.

I numbered his other questions why not these. ?

tony started out this thread with, "OK araujo, this is mainly for you to start..."

You aren't araujo.   So I wasn't directing my comments to your actions, but his.

Regardless of that, my saying what I did was a blatant attempt at social engineering at making araujo actually comply with tony's request that araujo number his answers.   Such requests are, for the vast majority of the time, ignored.

I was trying to prevent the most predictable outcome.

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Gotcha

Watcher wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

Watcher wrote:

I bet he won't number anything.

Any takers?

I'll take that bet---5 bucks.

I numbered his other questions why not these. ?

tony started out this thread with, "OK araujo, this is mainly for you to start..."

You aren't araujo.   So I wasn't directing my comments to your actions, but his.

Regardless of that, my saying what I did was a blatant attempt at social engineering at making araujo actually comply with tony's request that araujo number his answers.   Such requests are, for the vast majority of the time, ignored.

I was trying to prevent the most predictable outcome.

Now you won't have to send it to my favorite charity---me. Smiling

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Old Seer wrote:Now you won't

Old Seer wrote:

Now you won't have to send it to my favorite charity---me. Smiling

I don't have any money anyway.   My wife and daughters divide the spoils of my paychecks in some arcane, hidden manner that I'm not allowed knowledge of.

But she feeds me pretty well so I'm not rocking the boat.

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"There are 12 things said which is the word of God. Remember JC, the word of God. son of man"

Ok, please elaborate.

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


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Old Seer wrote:aren't

Old Seer wrote:

aren't solving a thing. I used to be a guitar strummer, I didn't solve anything. If my guitar planging didn't save the world how is this fella's guitar wire bending going to make any difference. Music is nothing more then organized noise. Is it any different then bird tweeting. Using it to generate consolation also creates confidence in falsehoods. It creates mental mud for intellectual tires to get stuck in. Been there, done that.  Regards.

it's called being tongue-in-cheek.  i didn't put townes's video up there because i thought it was especially profound or "solved" anything.  i put it up there because it's a song about someone trying to sell him coastal property in bohemia--i.e., a crock of shit. 

btw, while townes may be strumming here, technically he was a fingerpicker, and a goddamn good one.  i'm a fingerpicker myself, of comparable proficiency, and i make a nice little sum on the side, despite not being able to quit my day job.  i've even gotten to tour a few times, in humble slovakia.  so it solves lots of "problems" for me, namely, the problem of how to hang around a lot of cool, salt-of-the-earth people and bring them joy, and the problem of how to get some extra money for the occassional pub crawl.  beyond that, i lack for nothing.

stop trying to peddle answers to me, please.  i've already had more than my fair share of bodhis, enough to know that there are no answers, there are no secrets, there are no solutions nor any problems to be solved, there is no goal other than the one you decide to choose for yourself, and everything that is is right in front of your face--literally.

and don't talk to me about mental mud.  you're up to your ears in avidya, pal.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


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Congrates on the little tyke

Watcher wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

Now you won't have to send it to my favorite charity---me. Smiling

I don't have any money anyway.   My wife and daughters divide the spoils of my paychecks in some arcane, hidden manner that I'm not allowed knowledge of.

But she feeds me pretty well so I'm not rocking the boat.

I understand about the money, with me it's grand kids. There's robbery in constant progress around here.

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The book uses

tonyjeffers wrote:

"There are 12 things said which is the word of God. Remember JC, the word of God. son of man"

Ok, please elaborate.

a numbering system based on creation, in Brand-A. (that doesn't include the Hebrew numeric alphabet, a component of Brand-B) And God said, let there be light. That is one of the words of God. You'll be able to count 11 of those where God "said". The 12th is the 7th day itself where-in 1 thing is created, peace, as in peace of mind. The 7th is the result of the  6 previous days. Day is=enlightenment. Someone is being enlightened, gaining knowledge, in this case knowledge of God/the self. This knowledge is adjusting/creating a person of a particular type. You'll see the term "his kind" in other days of Creation. That means-of God's kind/type, where the one being changed is completed in "the image of God". All days are one day divided into 7 things separated out for explanation purposes. The 7 days are the Creator fashioning a man of "his kind" which is has Hee. Remove 1 day or a portion and the whole thing doesn't work.

Ok- Band-A interprets as , In the beginning God created the spirit and the soul, and the soul was without form and void (not man-animalistic) and ignorance (an unknowing) was upon the face of the mind (waters=mind, thoughts) And God said(<---word of God) let there be light (knowledgeable, knowing) and the person became aware, and God saw the light that it was Good ( Not good and evil, but Good only) This is a guy/people becoming Brand-A. Thus then JC is of this creation also as he is referred to as The word of God. He is a person of this same creation.

I need to interject here for future understanding coming up- Europeans in our understanding are not decendents of Adam, as we see it. Middle Easterners would be, Arabs. Smiling

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Adam was a living what ?

Old Seer wrote:

tonyjeffers wrote:

"There are 12 things said which is the word of God. Remember JC, the word of God. son of man"

Ok, please elaborate.

a numbering system based on creation, in Brand-A. (that doesn't include the Hebrew numeric alphabet, a component of Brand-B) And God said, let there be light. That is one of the words of God. You'll be able to count 11 of those where God "said". The 12th is the 7th day itself where-in 1 thing is created, peace, as in peace of mind. The 7th is the result of the  6 previous days. Day is=enlightenment. Someone is being enlightened, gaining knowledge, in this case knowledge of God/the self. This knowledge is adjusting/creating a person of a particular type. You'll see the term "his kind" in other days of Creation. That means-of God's kind/type, where the one being changed is completed in "the image of God". All days are one day divided into 7 things separated out for explanation purposes. The 7 days are the Creator fashioning a man of "his kind" which is has Hee. Remove 1 day or a portion and the whole thing doesn't work.

Ok- Band-A interprets as , In the beginning God created the spirit and the soul, and the soul was without form and void (not man-animalistic) and ignorance (an unknowing) was upon the face of the mind (waters=mind, thoughts) And God said(<---word of God) let there be light (knowledgeable, knowing) and the person became aware, and God saw the light that it was Good ( Not good and evil, but Good only) This is a guy/people becoming Brand-A. Thus then JC is of this creation also as he is referred to as The word of God. He is a person of this same creation.

I need to interject here for future understanding coming up- Europeans in our understanding are not decendents of Adam, as we see it. Middle Easterners would be, Arabs. Smiling

  So, Adam was a "living soul" because he was made from Terra Firma, you think ?

 


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Nope

danatemporary wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

tonyjeffers wrote:

"There are 12 things said which is the word of God. Remember JC, the word of God. son of man"

Ok, please elaborate.

a numbering system based on creation, in Brand-A. (that doesn't include the Hebrew numeric alphabet, a component of Brand-B) And God said, let there be light. That is one of the words of God. You'll be able to count 11 of those where God "said". The 12th is the 7th day itself where-in 1 thing is created, peace, as in peace of mind. The 7th is the result of the  6 previous days. Day is=enlightenment. Someone is being enlightened, gaining knowledge, in this case knowledge of God/the self. This knowledge is adjusting/creating a person of a particular type. You'll see the term "his kind" in other days of Creation. That means-of God's kind/type, where the one being changed is completed in "the image of God". All days are one day divided into 7 things separated out for explanation purposes. The 7 days are the Creator fashioning a man of "his kind" which is has Hee. Remove 1 day or a portion and the whole thing doesn't work.

Ok- Band-A interprets as , In the beginning God created the spirit and the soul, and the soul was without form and void (not man-animalistic) and ignorance (an unknowing) was upon the face of the mind (waters=mind, thoughts) And God said(<---word of God) let there be light (knowledgeable, knowing) and the person became aware, and God saw the light that it was Good ( Not good and evil, but Good only) This is a guy/people becoming Brand-A. Thus then JC is of this creation also as he is referred to as The word of God. He is a person of this same creation.

I need to interject here for future understanding coming up- Europeans in our understanding are not decendents of Adam, as we see it. Middle Easterners would be, Arabs. Smiling

  So, Adam was a "living soul" because he was made from Terra Firma, you think ?

 

That would be Brand-X. Adam isn't a singular person it is a group of people what we termed "Adamites" for reference. Adam was a person or people the same as you and I before biblical creation. The creation is those persons being (Adam is a "their" which has 2 ways of being seen) becoming aware (Creation is an awareness of the self)(there were Euro Adamites at one time but were just nudists in English history) There is no body being made. Creation is the changing from one personage (spiritual) to another. It's the putting away of animal traits and adhereing to only human traits. Soul comprises all your inner traits (I think) of both human and animal. Living soul can mean that the human is the living and the animal becomes termed as dead, inactive. The animal traits are retained but not part of social values. In the world we are in now the animal traits are of the higher value. It was also so with those before creation of those involved in this creation. Creation in as Brand-A is a transformation  of the person and is nothing physical, that would be a changing of the mind. It stems from--you are not the brain itself but rather a product of the brain. The brain is material/physical, what the brain produces is refered to as spiritual.

 From what we find is that there is only two things that exist in the universe, the material and the spiritual An Apostle points out that-"first there was the physical and then the spiritual". The physical is material, that means they understood that the material universe was formed first and then sometime later the spiritual formed. The spiritual they are concerned with is "people" your inner self, the invisible (again the apostle speaking---those invisible things that can be seen at creation and onward), which means that they understood creation to be of a spiritual nature, not material.  That info eliminates Brand-X. So Adam is a person not dealing with a physical structure but the spiritual, that 's one's manner of personailty. Or a different mental and inner makeup then before Creation.

But, hold on here: Top notch Physics Smurf says, there's no proof that what the product of the brain is, is non-material. How so???? IF, what we surmise as non material can merely be that the brain has the capacity to form sub-atomc particles in patterns to from a personage or mental picture----and being that sub-atomic particles are material---then the universe contains only -----Material. Something like that. But as far as we're concerned the process works.

Thanks Dana Smiling

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This one is going to take some time, maybe.

iwbiek wrote:

well, in the meantime, i'll give the standard fundy chronology:

1. rapture of living believers (this is heavily disputed among christians so this step might be missing)

2. coming of the antichrist

3. apparent death of the antichrist and his resurrection by the false prophet

4. tribulation, consisting of seven trumpets, seven seals, and seven vials (in revelation they kind of fit into each other like russian dolls, but i can't remember if this is the correct order)

5. somewhere in here israel begins to be converted, especially thanks to the two "witnesses," whom most fundies believe are elijah and enoch returned from being taken up bodily into heaven.  eventually they're martyred.

6. last trumpet and coming of christ in the clouds.

7. resurrection of the righteous dead into eternal life.  according to first thessalonians, this is when the rapture of living believers will take place, not before the tribulation (the idea of the pre-tribulation rapture has its origins not in traditional biblical teaching, but rather in a vision a crazy 19th century scottish girl had).

8. satan and his minions are chained in a pit.

9. millennium in an earthly paradise ruled over physically by jim caviez--er--jesus.

10. satan and his minions are let out of the pit "for a short time" (ha-ha, just kidding, fucking evil still exists!), before being cast by god into the lake of fire.

11. the resurrection of the unrighteous dead and their judgment before the "great white throne," when the book of human deeds will be opened and they will be condemned for raping, murdering, stealing, masturbating, fucking beautiful women they cared deeply about but neglected to say a few words in a church with, being a peaceful jain, thinking the bible sounds like it was written by stan lee, spitting on the sidewalk, picking up sticks on a saturday, calling god on his bullshit, watching george carlin, listening to kiss, letting their hair get below half an inch above the ear, throwing away a lee greenwood tape, etc., etc., etc.

12. those unrighteous dead are cast into the lake of fire and the believers are led triumphantly into the new jerusalem, where jesus turns over rule of the new heaven and earth to big daddy (even though they're somehow the same person).

note: as far as people going directly to heaven when they die, christians are divided on this.  what little evidence there is for it in the bible ("abraham's bosom," the thief on the cross, the vision of the 144,000 around god's throne in rev. 4) is vague, and many christians insist they're figurative.  other interpretations are that the "paradise" jesus promised the thief on the cross was the same as abraham's bosom and referred to a sort of "holding place" for righteous jews that was shut down after jesus's descent into hades, and pre-tribbers argue that the 144,000 praising god are the freshly raptured church.

regardless, almost all christians believe that if there are spirits of dead believers in heaven, it's only a temporary arrangement, and that they will be resurrected at the last trumpet with "glorified bodies" and populate the new heaven and earth.

I finally realized this is what you wanted numbered. It can take 3 hours to do this one.The reason is-it's been 20 years since we completed the study (1992) and I don't have any paper work from the guys anymore. 20 years ago I didn't know anything of what was going to happen with our information. But I will handle #1 now. It's one of my favorites.

Nooooooway Jose. It doesn't happen this way in Brand-A. There's nothing physical going on here. Rapture---yes but people loosing their mental bearings., not hardly. Wouldn't rapture equate to a mental state as rapture denotes mental condition on the first count. Caught up in the air (holy moly). Air = spirit. Air=heavenly, same thing or in conjunction with each other. Heaven is a state of happiness-in some cases used as what is valued or that which is held or kept of higher value, a measure of uplifting or condition of being uplifted , mental condition. (simple ain't it) Earth = soul---mother earth, as in, Eve as in woman is soul, as in the emotional structure and that which is loved, which gives birth to a new manchild of "His" kind, same as reborn=new person. The woman was formed out of Adam=Adam acquires a new soul. Caught up in the spirit of renewal and remain in it etc. Absolutely nothing to do with countering gravity or the suspending the laws of physics.

 

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers