It's a MAN, baby!

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It's a MAN, baby!

Ok, I am a big supporter of gay rights in every regard...except when it deals with rulings like this.

 

shine.yahoo.com/healthy-living/sex-change-women-allowed-enter-miss-universe-175900662.html

 

This freak because, let's face it, that's what this "thing" is, should have no female rights and the same goes for any other transgender.  If you were born a woman, you're a woman and the same applies just the same for men.  Just because a doctor wants to mutilate your insides, doll you up like a cheap Thailand whore and put a wig on you doesn't make you any more of the opposite gender.  Your DNA cannot be fucked with in that manner and even as far as medical science has come, you are the same gender from birth 'til death end of story.  This is grossly disrespectful to women of this competition that work their entire lives to maintain this degree of beauty and prestige being potentially upstaged by something that isn't even the same gender.  Why stop here?  Let's allow a transgender to compete in the women events at the Olympics.  Fuck tolerance and "PC" crap; this is insulting. 

 

Thoughts?

"When the majority believes in what is false, the truth becomes a quest." - Me


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If the Miss Universe has a

If the Miss Universe has a rule against no plastic/cosmetic surgery then (well lets face most transgender don't make good looking women with out it) if a transgender has had plastic/cosmetic surgery (besides down there) then they should be disqualified if not I don't get the issue. Why does it matter what you were born man/woman? In the olympics well there is a competative advantage... in a beauty contest there really isn't any advantage to being a man. The advantage might come from surgery but if the other girls are allowed to do it as well then I don't care, if they are not then they should be barred if they have had surgery.

 

On a completely different note, you clearly have issues with this subject, you don't call someone a freak unless you are bigoted. You are just saying what conservatives say about gays.

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Quote:On a completely

Quote:
On a completely different note, you clearly have issues with this subject, you don't call someone a freak unless you are bigoted. You are just saying what conservatives say about gays.

 

No, I have issues with freaks.  Exhibit A:

 

 

What part of "I am a big supporter of gay rights in every regard" do you not comprehend?  If I disagree with one aspect of human culture, I'm not a bigot; these people are FREAKS.  There is no pleasant or alternative word to use.  The issue also isn't "cosmetic surgery" being used in the pageant; it's a GENDER ISSUE.  Transgenders are NOT magically transformed just because a doctor chooses to cut them up to simulate another sex.  I could really give a fuck about the pageant; this is about an eventual precedent being set regarding anyone who makes the mistake of going under the knife and trying to escape the painful reality of their gender.  You don't see every gay individual in the world suddenly transforming into the opposite sex, do you?  Why is that?  Because they aren't INSANE.  Also, because gay people want to be with the SAME GENDER because they're GAY.  There's no rhyme or reason for people to undergo this unless they are mentally imbalanced or they want to try and cover up something.  The majority of the gay community is proud and outspoken unlike these fools who might as well have just torn up their "member of the rational human race" card a long time ago.

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Cher's man-daughter?

Cher's man-daughter?

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Sage_Override wrote:  What

Sage_Override wrote:
 

What part of "I am a big supporter of gay rights in every regard" do you not comprehend?  If I disagree with one aspect of human culture, I'm not a bigot; these people are FREAKS.....

The majority of the gay community is proud and outspoken unlike these fools who might as well have just torn up their "member of the rational human race" card a long time ago.

 

So you are a big supporter of gay rights, but apparently not of transgendered rights? Or perhaps we ought to label it "freak" rights?

 

Who cares whether or not Miss Universe allows transgendered contestants, men, only blondes, robots or bumble bees? If you don't like it, don't watch. I don't think Miss Universe should be legally obligated to include anyone, but based on this story there was no lawsuit filed or even threat of one.

 

This Talackova wanted to compete, was told no, hired representation and presented Miss Universe with a large petition. Miss Universe decided it was in their best interests to give in. Good for Talackova. Now parents will no longer have to explain to little Timmy that it is impossible for him to grow up to be a beauty queen. 


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I'm of the opinion that:this

I'm of the opinion that:

  1. this is mostly a litmus test for "transphobia"
  2. There are two types of transpeople: those that want to 'fit in' with society, and those that genuinely want to be freaks/outcasts/androgynes/ugly male hookers that vaguely resemble women Sticking out tongue
  3. pointless morality thread is pointless. no one gives a shit about transpeople and most likely still don't failing outright hatred. (sure, there are always exceptions that prove this rule)

 

 

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Just like gays, transgender

Just like gays, transgender people have issues with their DNA. There is an overwhelming feeling inside that you are not made correctly. Mentally you are a woman but in a man body. Studies have shown true transgender DNA has... well I'll let you read it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7689007.stm

Either way, being transgender is not a choice. They are made this way. They didn't wake up one morning and decide, "I fancy being a man today". It is something that has been predetermined since birth.

To say that one is a freak or no rights is disturbing.

 

 

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and again, I say: (some)

and again, I say: (some) want to fit in with society at large.

People with gender dysphoria generally want to fit in with society at large. Gender dysphorics are the broad 'group I was referring to in my previous post.

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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I don't see how he could

I don't see how he could hope to win. Females have totally different features/structures etc....

 

 

 

 


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Cpt_pineapple wrote:I don't

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

I don't see how he could hope to win. Females have totally different features/structures etc.... 

No way she could win now that every one knows her. Other females might be mean too... make it difficult.

I think the point was she is trying to open the door for others to do and possibly win later.

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 Sage, have you made a

 Sage, have you made a mistake that involved you gargling with whiskey before?

Have your genitals experienced confusion?

Sorry but your "I support these people but not THOSE people" rings a little hollow.

 

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Sage_Override, I think your

Sage_Override, I think your concern might be that this kind of surgical practice is dishonest and when you go to a bar you would like to know if the woman you are hitting on was born that way. Like others have mentioned, it doesn't really seem any more dishonest than any other plastic surgery, and personally if things got hot I probably would not ever want to know, but there are much worse dishonest practices you could encounter, such as "your incredibly lucky night" which turned out to be "an incredibly profitable robbery".

There are a couple ways you could broach the subject with your alleged girl with other less invasive questions. I am not an expert on this by any means, but you could do what I do - keep the memory of the night foggy enough to avoid any feeling of guilt either way. However, as a general exception to this rule, you might want to abstain if you're visiting Thailand.


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ax wrote:Sage_Override, I

ax wrote:

Sage_Override, I think your concern might be that this kind of surgical practice is dishonest and when you go to a bar you would like to know if the woman you are hitting on was born that way. Like others have mentioned, it doesn't really seem any more dishonest than any other plastic surgery, and personally if things got hot I probably would not ever want to know, but there are much worse dishonest practices you could encounter, such as "your incredibly lucky night" which turned out to be "an incredibly profitable robbery".

There are a couple ways you could broach the subject with your alleged girl with other less invasive questions. I am not an expert on this by any means, but you could do what I do - keep the memory of the night foggy enough to avoid any feeling of guilt either way. However, as a general exception to this rule, you might want to abstain if you're visiting Thailand.

There was a famous transgender from the 80's who was a model and a B-star.

She was dating some one who did not know she was a transgender and ended up dumping her.

If you watch the video she is the one putting on the lipstick with the big hat and sunglasses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=3P3No5P4sFs#t=33s

 

What about this story?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1211165/Transexual-prisoner-wins-High-Court-battle-moved-womens-jail.html

 

Free will is an illusion. People always choose the perceived path of greatest pleasure.

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On the other end of the

On the other end of the spectrum what about stories like this?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2128219/The-way-I-look-makes-hard-meet-men-UKs-biggest-female-bodybuilder-reveals-shes-single-years.html

I don't find her very attractive but she is pretty and yes I would date her. Maybe if I got to know her I could go for some one like her, but she obviously takes steroids so that is a turn off.

Does this type of woman deserve any less on her person rights? Should she still be treated as a woman or as a man?

 

 

Free will is an illusion. People always choose the perceived path of greatest pleasure.

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digitalbeachbum wrote:No way

digitalbeachbum wrote:

No way she could win now that every one knows her. Other females might be mean too... make it difficult.

I think the point was she is trying to open the door for others to do and possibly win later.

 

Unless, it's a very femine man with feminine features, he won't win.

 

Also, I'm using my nouns "he" and "she", based on sex, not gender. His sex didn't change, he still has a Y chromosome, but his gender did.

 


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Transgendered women are

Transgendered women are already allowed to compete in the Olympics. Gender verification in a beauty pageant would be pointless because people are competing based on physical appearance. If someone looks like they might not have been born a woman then they probably wouldn't be in a beauty pageant.

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Quote:This Talackova wanted

Quote:
This Talackova wanted to compete, was told no, hired representation and presented Miss Universe with a large petition. Miss Universe decided it was in their best interests to give in. Good for Talackova. Now parents will no longer have to explain to little Timmy that it is impossible for him to grow up to be a beauty queen.

 

Yes, and that makes it all better, right?  Let's tell little Timmy that the person who won is really a man and explain that he will have to be careful not to fall into a trap and take one of them home one day because they may look like any other woman, artificially attractive on the outside, but horribly mutilated up top and down below.  He'll only be scarred for life and no amount of hot water or soap can remove that terrible feeling.  Ace Ventura had to learn the hard way with Einhorn:

 

 

 

Quote:
Just like gays, transgender people have issues with their DNA. There is an overwhelming feeling inside that you are not made correctly. Mentally you are a woman but in a man body. Studies have shown true transgender DNA has... well I'll let you read it.

 

While that may be true, I still stand by the fact that they aren't true men/women after getting altered on the operating table.  It's unfortunate that they may be born with an imbalance, but that doesn't give them free reign to take part in gender specific events like competing in the Olympics or beauty pageants.  It doesn't change their original gender from birth.  Saying it's ok for a transgender to compete in said events is like saying it's ok for a regular man that has had no sex change operation procedures to put on prosthetics, cake on the make-up and pose as a woman.  Regardless of how they FEEL on the inside, they are STILL a man or a woman bottom line.  Modern science made this type of shit possible so, if this is a genetic thing, it's been going on for a long time, but at least if a person with this imbalance was around we'd be able to tell if they were gay or straight...well, hopefully.

 

I'm just bringing this kind of issue to the table because it isn't talked about that much and around here, sometimes conversations become stale.  To me, transgenders are pretty creepy and there's way too much red tape regarding what rights they feel they should have in certain aspects based on what gender they had at birth and I'm allowed to have that opinion.  I don't think they should be burned at the stake or become victims of hate crimes or anything like that, but they need to understand why they can't do certain things just because they THINK they are another gender due to operations and layers of rouge. 

"When the majority believes in what is false, the truth becomes a quest." - Me


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I think it's bullshit just

I think it's bullshit just because he/she is just wanting to make a stink and get some attention.  They have plenty of drag queen etc. contest in their community. Have a tranny queeny pageant for fuck's sake.  Society has come plenty far to either accept or ignore their lifestyles.  Don't cram it down our throats.(pun intended)

And that overwhelming feeling inside.- I used to have an overwhelming feeling inside about Jesus. Turned out I was just suffering from mental illness.  But I got over it.  Seriously tho, I know they got urges and feelings they can't escape but just go suck a dick already. 

Hell I bet he/she gives the ultimate hummer.  Fuck it , I'd take one.

I was watching some damn show I think in Thailand those hermaphrodites are the highest status in society and even worshipped like gods.

It's a wild wacky world man.  I'd sell tickets but the church already beat me to it.

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


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Sage_Override

Sage_Override wrote:

Quote:
This Talackova wanted to compete, was told no, hired representation and presented Miss Universe with a large petition. Miss Universe decided it was in their best interests to give in. Good for Talackova. Now parents will no longer have to explain to little Timmy that it is impossible for him to grow up to be a beauty queen.

 

Yes, and that makes it all better, right?  Let's tell little Timmy that the person who won is really a man and explain that he will have to be careful not to fall into a trap and take one of them home one day because they may look like any other woman, artificially attractive on the outside, but horribly mutilated up top and down below.  He'll only be scarred for life and no amount of hot water or soap can remove that terrible feeling.

 

Is that what happened to you? Is that why you feel this way? I don't see the problem really, sure they have a responsibility to tell relivant people they have had a sex change, they are pretty terrible if they don't, no where near as terrible as not telling you they have herpes type 2 or something like that but they should let you know first. So they used to look like a man/woman... what is the big deal. Is there anything wrong with having sex with a man? Is there anything wrong with having sex with a woman? I garentee you they are one or the other. I don't see what has you so against this. What harm do they cause? What happens if they can compete in beauty contests... we will have trans gender in beauty contests. I really don't see any harm in it and neither did the people who let her in apparently.

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Sage_Override

Sage_Override wrote:

Quote:
This Talackova wanted to compete, was told no, hired representation and presented Miss Universe with a large petition. Miss Universe decided it was in their best interests to give in. Good for Talackova. Now parents will no longer have to explain to little Timmy that it is impossible for him to grow up to be a beauty queen.

 

Yes, and that makes it all better, right?  Let's tell little Timmy that the person who won is really a man and explain that he will have to be careful not to fall into a trap and take one of them home one day because they may look like any other woman, artificially attractive on the outside, but horribly mutilated up top and down below.  He'll only be scarred for life and no amount of hot water or soap can remove that terrible feeling.  Ace Ventura had to learn the hard way with Einhorn:

 

 

 

Quote:
Just like gays, transgender people have issues with their DNA. There is an overwhelming feeling inside that you are not made correctly. Mentally you are a woman but in a man body. Studies have shown true transgender DNA has... well I'll let you read it.

 

While that may be true, I still stand by the fact that they aren't true men/women after getting altered on the operating table.  It's unfortunate that they may be born with an imbalance, but that doesn't give them free reign to take part in gender specific events like competing in the Olympics or beauty pageants.  It doesn't change their original gender from birth.  Saying it's ok for a transgender to compete in said events is like saying it's ok for a regular man that has had no sex change operation procedures to put on prosthetics, cake on the make-up and pose as a woman.  Regardless of how they FEEL on the inside, they are STILL a man or a woman bottom line.  Modern science made this type of shit possible so, if this is a genetic thing, it's been going on for a long time, but at least if a person with this imbalance was around we'd be able to tell if they were gay or straight...well, hopefully.

 

I'm just bringing this kind of issue to the table because it isn't talked about that much and around here, sometimes conversations become stale.  To me, transgenders are pretty creepy and there's way too much red tape regarding what rights they feel they should have in certain aspects based on what gender they had at birth and I'm allowed to have that opinion.  I don't think they should be burned at the stake or become victims of hate crimes or anything like that, but they need to understand why they can't do certain things just because they THINK they are another gender due to operations and layers of rouge. 

What it comes down to is that you want to make sure your wanking stays pure. There's nothing you can do to ennoble your basic point.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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Sage_Override wrote:

Sage_Override wrote:

 

Thoughts?


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Quote:Sage_Override wrote:

Quote:
Sage_Override wrote: Thoughts?

 

 

 

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 Wow... not sure I believe

 Wow... not sure I believe in that study.. I know a few people who homophobic and they are far from being closet gays. They just hate the idea of two men being together. Like I hate the idea of a woman sucking a horse cock. Does this mean I'm a person who likes to have sex with animals? Also, does this study take in to account women?

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I know of a study that

I know of a study that proves that Terra has four sides, giving rise to the 4-sided Earth theory.

 

 

Lemme see if I can dig it up...

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Kapkao wrote:Lemme see if I

Kapkao wrote:

Lemme see if I can dig it up...

While you're in there don't forget to check for polyps. I was giving the OP the benefit of the doubt. A closet case is the best he could be.

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Gauche wrote:Kapkao

Gauche wrote:

Kapkao wrote:

Lemme see if I can dig it up...

While you're in there don't forget to check for polyps.

Okay... that got a snicker from me, I admit.

 

Quote:
I was giving the OP the benefit of the doubt. A closet case is the best he could be.

You have proof or reason to believe this? Mind you, I cross-dressed once because I was romantically attached to a girl while we were both in our tweens (10.) I thought it would aid in our "chances", if you can believe it. I think I took a shot at playing house, as well.  I didn't actually dream of becoming a woman/girl. 

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Quote:Gauge wrote: I was

Quote:
Gauche wrote: I was giving the OP the benefit of the doubt. A closet case is the best he could be.

 

Your assumption is just...*sigh*...refer to my original response with the chap banging his head on a table because words just don't cut it.  It's like I'm talking to a brick wall...

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People understand sexuality

People understand sexuality they way they understand the universe. Which is to say not much.

I hold no reservations against this. Technically, men have been sexually discriminated against for centuries when it comes to beauty. Equal rights ftw.

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Sage_Override

Sage_Override wrote:

Quote:
Gauche wrote: I was giving the OP the benefit of the doubt. A closet case is the best he could be.

 

Your assumption is just...*sigh*...refer to my original response with the chap banging his head on a table because words just don't cut it.  It's like I'm talking to a brick wall...

Could it be that you bigotry doesn't make a damn bit of sense? Throwing crap on a wall doesn't make the wall understand it or the crap any more significant.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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Kapkao wrote:Gauche wrote:I

Kapkao wrote:

Gauche wrote:

I was giving the OP the benefit of the doubt. A closet case is the best he could be.

You have proof or reason to believe this? Mind you, I cross-dressed once because I was romantically attached to a girl while we were both in our tweens (10.) I thought it would aid in our "chances", if you can believe it. I think I took a shot at playing house, as well.  I didn't actually dream of becoming a woman/girl. 

If the person is gay then the behavior can be reasonably accounted for and understood. It may even be excusable because homosexuals have legitimate reasons to fear for their safety. Otherwise it's a bit more abstruse and I think the most likely possibilities are worse.

If what I see here aren't the desperate ramblings of someone with a real problem then what am I looking at? Senseless bigotry? Hostile xenophobia? A person stupid and crazy enough to care about the conventional formalities of beauty pageants so much they've been upset by this subject?

Even if there's some other explanation a person should be socialized to the point they understand how to express their opinions in a forum that's not full of immature teenagers and couch their prejudice in terms that don't make them appear completely clownish. As I said, I'm assuming the best about the person not the worst.

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
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Sage is worried that his

Sage is worried that his girlfriend will have a bigger dick than he does.

 

 


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Gauche wrote:Kapkao

Gauche wrote:

Kapkao wrote:

Gauche wrote:

I was giving the OP the benefit of the doubt. A closet case is the best he could be.

You have proof or reason to believe this? Mind you, I cross-dressed once because I was romantically attached to a girl while we were both in our tweens (10.) I thought it would aid in our "chances", if you can believe it. I think I took a shot at playing house, as well.  I didn't actually dream of becoming a woman/girl. 

If the person is gay then the behavior can be reasonably accounted for and understood. It may even be excusable because homosexuals have legitimate reasons to fear for their safety. Otherwise it's a bit more abstruse and I think the most likely possibilities are worse.

If what I see here aren't the desperate ramblings of someone with a real problem then what am I looking at? Senseless bigotry? Hostile xenophobia? A person stupid and crazy enough to care about the conventional formalities of beauty pageants so much they've been upset by this subject?

Even if there's some other explanation a person should be socialized to the point they understand how to express their opinions in a forum that's not full of immature teenagers and couch their prejudice in terms that don't make them appear completely clownish. As I said, I'm assuming the best about the person not the worst.

And again, I answer: "pointless morality thread is pointless"

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Maybe to you all levels of

Maybe to you all levels of discourse are equal but it doesn't help the site draw new members who are intelligent. Even I have doubts about posting here when I see nonsense like this.

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


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Gauche wrote:Maybe to you

Gauche wrote:
Maybe to you all levels of discourse are equal

Well put, Main Gauche.

 

Quote:
but it doesn't help the site draw new members who are intelligent.

I submitted this sentence to my Magic Scrying Crystal (8-)Ball, and it responded "Absolutely!" (I had to try four times)

That is to say, "your point appears valid and strikes me as true".

Quote:
Even I have doubts about posting here when I see nonsense like this.

I don't care to invite more "philsophers" and "ideologues" here (to the general 'tune' of Mike Reed's Flame Warriors.) We have them in abundance already, and I'd like to discourage new ones from joining whenever possible. Tony Jeffers is the one exception: his shit doesn't stink to me, but for nearly every other opinionated poster or pundit I've met on the web, their shit virtually stinks to high heavens.

 

"Excuse me, you forgot one very important talking point; why the fuck am I supposed to care what you think? There's already 7 billion of you spewing worthless opinions across the globe as is!"

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Sage_Override

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    I don't care what her sexual habits are.  She can do what she wants.  My observation is that while a biological female she was actually desirable ( to either men or women )  whereas in her present incarnation she has lost her attractiveness.   My criticism is purely artistic in nature and is predicated upon what I perceive as the prevailing standards for beauty.  ( admittedly tastes vary and even the late Amy Winehouse had her her share of lovers but yikes ! )    Yes, perhaps Chastity / Chaz looks like a man, but she's a long way from looking like Hugh Jackman.


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Kapkao wrote:I don't care to

Kapkao wrote:

I don't care to invite more "philsophers" and "ideologues" here (to the general 'tune' of Mike Reed's Flame Warriors.) We have them in abundance already, and I'd like to discourage new ones from joining whenever possible. Tony Jeffers is the one exception: his shit doesn't stink to me, but for nearly every other opinionated poster or pundit I've met on the web, their shit virtually stinks to high heavens.

 

"Excuse me, you forgot one very important talking point; why the fuck am I supposed to care what you think? There's already 7 billion of you spewing worthless opinions across the globe as is!"

But this isn't your website. Even if you want to have thread topics and inflammatory rhetoric that are ridiculously stupid go unchallenged to serve as a beacon to people you can commiserate with, I'm not going to help you with that.

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


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Gauche wrote:But this isn't

Gauche wrote:
But this isn't your website. Even if you want to have thread topics and inflammatory rhetoric that are ridiculously stupid go unchallenged to serve as a beacon to people you can commiserate with, I'm not going to help you with that.

Excellent point, but why invite moral debaters? You, yourself, said that you had no interest in two broad variants of moral debate. So... you want to invite people you have no interest in debating with? If so, that... kinda makes you somewhat like me, wouldn't you think?

To add to that conclusion, I agree with your earlier post about moral debate; it's pointless and futile. It is a relatively safe assumption (given developmental and behavioral psychology) that by the time a person reaches early adulthood (assume 24-35, for the sake of posterity) they've already developed a near-permanent worldview and moral philosophy that will be almost impossible to change via an external agency or individual. IOW, I believe you aren't going to change many people's minds about morality itself, save for maybe a few populistic coat-tailers that will automatically adhere to the words coming  out of a poster's mouth simply because they have the word "atheist" under their username. At that, who do you, specifically, think you can alter the worldview or moral philosophy of via the internet? What kind of person do your words 'inspire'? It's a relevant argument in terms of 'for what use?'.  I don't care for echochambers here anymore than most of the current posters at RRS do, but eventually, a poster has to ask themselves the question "Why am I having this discussion" and "what do I hope to accomplish with it".

IMO, "I discuss morality here because it feels like the right thing to do" doesn't cut it anymore, in ideology-oriented websites. Most people on the internet, or at least the ones I've noticed, don't care about your feelings, Gauche.  Nor do they care about mine, or anyone else's whose 'moniker' or alias they don't immediately recognize on the internet. Long-distance communities are selective in focus like that, as near as I can tell.

So again, I'll repeat my question in a condensed format: what do you hope to achieve by discussing morality but rarely (if ever) actually debating it?

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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First of all I'm not

First of all I'm not assailing this man's moral character. I posted information about Olympic regulations and peer-reviewed studies about homophobia to show he doesn't know what he's talking about and to provide one possible explanation for his motivation. What I am saying is that his behavior here has been unreasonable, irrational and puerile to the point it reflects negatively on this community.

If the absence of transvestite bashing will serve as an invitation to people who want to debate subjects I'm not interested in, which remains to be seen, then I guess that's too bad for me but I'd still prefer it to the alternative.

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


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Okay, Gauche... let me see

Okay, Gauche... let me see if I can state this as clearly as possible (with really big letters);

I hypothesize via deductive reasoning that Sage's behavior is a thinly-veiled attempt at inciting debate -it's the only explanation that fits.

I can blog all day about the finer points of what I consider sexy, but since I don't have a job and I don't post my pic all that often, the only person that's going to care is (likely) a prostitute. Nature of the beast, huh? I can make a thread here about my opinions, but since I only feel the need to share them given that someone else has shared their thoughts on a particular subject, I don't post threads about my opinion all that often.

So why bother mocking someone because of gender dysphoria and social event participation? I might do it to provoke debate.

Sage's opinions are still his own, but if two "bioethicists" in Australia can 'feint' an argument suggesting that it's ok for women to kill their kids post-birth, it's not much of a stretch that a messageboard poster can stir some random shit about transgender issues/transphobia.

Again, I ask, "where's the compelling argument, here?"

I doubt I'll get a worthwhile answer, but it is, at least, worth bothering with: where's the compelling argument, here? Why am I supposed to care about transgender issues?

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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This thread is starting to

This thread is starting to look like an intelligent version of my facebook community page. - the uptight bitch that purposely visits the page just to tell me she's offended by what she see's there.  And then there's me - the goom trapped in his own mind who's statement is "hey I'm making a statement that I have an opinion that doesn't matter".  You say "Tomato"- I say "FUCK YOU".  And now, this comment would not be complete without an "LOL"  

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


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Again, my sense of humor is

Again, my sense of humor is not what most people would consider healthy... but I must have missed thefucking punchline, Tony. Ok.. you (apparently) get off on being PIC. Get a ready for a shocker...

SO DO I! Holy creamed shit that must be a profound and note-worthy revelation if ever there was one. But still... this is a humor thread? I don't see any jokes being told. Could someone point them out to me?

I'll grant it would be moderately funny for sage to stop by, and claim he actually cross-dresses just for the lulz. Nevertheless... where's the humor? I wanna know where it is, because it's about the only thing that could drag this entire discussion up from 'moderately entertaining flame war'. Besides... this thread has nothing on Democratic Underground or Free Republic. I figure if you want to make a thread turn into a 'drama magnet', you (at least) have to stop by those two places for helpful tips and pointers.

They are basically forums to with other, already like-minded partisans all day long.

 

 

... (note: not intended to be a rant or lecture, but I'll probably come off that way anyhow . Gauche is normally a pretty effective cure for boredom, but -yet again- he apparently thinks my "inflammatory" posts are meant to be personal. They aren't, and never were.)

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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the other thing that sucks

the other thing that sucks about this thread is that it doesn't have nearly enough AiGS or redneF in it. Nothing like two antisentimental, loud-mouthed posters to get the day going, yes?

 

I guess I kinda have to fill in the role for them, huh?

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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If my "bigotry," or whatever

If my "bigotry," or whatever repetitious word you want to use, makes no sense to some of you, fine.  I really don't care.  It's pretty apparent that no matter how I defend my position, no matter what I say to reinforce my very rational reasoning, you'll still call me a bigot.  Even though I've said over and over again that I'm for gay rights in more words than I can express, even though that isn't the issue, you'll still call me a bigot.  Amazing.  Thanks to digital for giving me a heads up on that DNA evidence, by the way.  I appreciate the input and for not acting as rude as the others to my views. 

 

On that note, talk amongst yourselves and explain why you're superior to me on this issue if you must, but I think I've been pretty civil and clear even though it felt like I was being ganged up on.  It's kind of funny that this seems to be such a touchy subject around here; I never would have guessed.  Regardless,  I've stated my case and I'm done with this thread. 

 

  

"When the majority believes in what is false, the truth becomes a quest." - Me


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The persecution you're

The persecution you're facing must be horrible. Having everyone against you and being disrespected for reasons that to you seem arbitrary. Personally it's hard for me to imagine what that feels like because fortunately it's something most people never have to deal with. I however will still treat you with the respect I think everyone should have, even you and the transgendered. Am I not merciful?

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


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Kapkao wrote:Again, my sense

Kapkao wrote:

Again, my sense of humor is not what most people would consider healthy... but I must have missed thefucking punchline, Tony. Ok.. you (apparently) get off on being PIC. Get a ready for a shocker...

SO DO I! Holy creamed shit that must be a profound and note-worthy revelation if ever there was one. But still... this is a humor thread? I don't see any jokes being told. Could someone point them out to me?

I'll grant it would be moderately funny for sage to stop by, and claim he actually cross-dresses just for the lulz. Nevertheless... where's the humor? I wanna know where it is, because it's about the only thing that could drag this entire discussion up from 'moderately entertaining flame war'. Besides... this thread has nothing on Democratic Underground or Free Republic. I figure if you want to make a thread turn into a 'drama magnet', you (at least) have to stop by those two places for helpful tips and pointers.

They are basically forums to with other, already like-minded partisans all day long.

 

 

... (note: not intended to be a rant or lecture, but I'll probably come off that way anyhow . Gauche is normally a pretty effective cure for boredom, but -yet again- he apparently thinks my "inflammatory" posts are meant to be personal. They aren't, and never were.)

 

  "Where's the humor?" -you ask? Well, I thought it all started with some clown on #3 saying "Cher's man-daughter?".  Puzzled   I can find humor almost anywhere Kap, but then again I'm an enigma.   Smiling

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


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Gauche wrote:Am I not

Gauche wrote:

Am I not merciful?

You... read like a certain character from Gladiator.

Sage, I can understand and sympathize you a little better than you might at first realize. Did I tell you my mother is a lesbian?

 

No? Okay, I'll repeat it here: my mother is a lesbian, and not the most attractive one imaginable, so don't bother inquiring to her looks. She hails from an the "elder" generation of queers; the so-called "flower children". When she was attractive, she had to use a hair-straightener.

But more than that... she subjected me to quite a bit imagery I could have done without, as a budding young male. Most of that came in the form of "butch" women; redneckish neanderthal gals that... have no physically redeeming gender qualities besides physical strength and athleticism, and few if any redeeming mental traits besides "(redneckish) football party animal".

That's the kind of company my mother attracted throughout the late 80s until today. Having a person like Jenna pretend to be a woman, again... well, it ain't gonna get me hot and bothered any time soon since I go for twinkish undergrads and moderately curvy, young nymphos/adulteresses, myself.

 

Aiming for "Miss Universe"? Ok... how the fuck is this supposed to happen?

Oh wait a second... Jenna's just another sex rights 'visionary' on a needless quest to end "discrimination". GLAAD... kindly fuck yourself with a rusted syringe.

Miss Universe Pageant... weren't you already a league of conformist, politically-correct personalities that would NOT know "individuality" if it backhanded you across the face seven times? Yeah? Yeah?

End of story... "jesus fuckin christ" a la Penn J. Sticking out tongue

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Sage_Override wrote:On that

Sage_Override wrote:

On that note, talk amongst yourselves and explain why you're superior to me on this issue if you must, but I think I've been pretty civil and clear even though it felt like I was being ganged up on.  It's kind of funny that this seems to be such a touchy subject around here; I never would have guessed.

Oh... hell no could human instinctual responses EVER be  a"touchy" subject, mind the intentional pun. Sticking out tongue

I still think this is you provoking morality debate about transphobia rather than an actual interest in seeing "Miss Universe" being exclusive to natural women.

Maybe I'm wrong, and you being physically disgusted with transgenders makes more sense here -it certainly fits with Occam's Razor.

(Howard Stern has expressed NUMEROUS times his disgust with the visual concept of men shagging each other Laughing out loud)

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Quote:I'm not a bigot; these

Quote:
I'm not a bigot; these people are FREAKS.

. EVERY single human on this planet should have the right to be comfortable in their own bodies. She has no obligation to hide what she is or what she wants in life, and if other people, including this pageant accept her, she has every legal right. Your baggage is not hers.

This was the right thing to do. I'd suggest you get over yourself. You merely find it "yucky". "Yucky" to you is not "yucky" to them. They don't owe you anything.

No one is forcing you to have sex with them or marry them. But they have every right to get a sex change and if that makes them happy, that makes the world that much a better place.

AND science in psychology is now understanding that our sexuality in or brains and bodies do not always match what is between our legs. Just like a woman's breasts can be uneven so she gets surgery to make them even. The sex change to them is correcting the imperfection of evolution.

And transgendered people are not gay or straight but can be both. They can have a range of sexual desires. Their sex change is only correcting their equipment. It is a separate issue than their sexuality or sexual preference. She could still like women. She may have liked men as a man, or she could even be bi. But what she does consensually with another adult is none of your business in any case.

Grow up. It is her life, not yours.

 

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Kapkao wrote:Sage_Override

Kapkao wrote:

Sage_Override wrote:

On that note, talk amongst yourselves and explain why you're superior to me on this issue if you must, but I think I've been pretty civil and clear even though it felt like I was being ganged up on.  It's kind of funny that this seems to be such a touchy subject around here; I never would have guessed.

Oh... hell no could human instinctual responses EVER be  a"touchy" subject, mind the intentional pun. Sticking out tongue

I still think this is you provoking morality debate about transphobia rather than an actual interest in seeing "Miss Universe" being exclusive to natural women.

Maybe I'm wrong, and you being physically disgusted with transgenders makes more sense here -it certainly fits with Occam's Razor.

(Howard Stern has expressed NUMEROUS times his disgust with the visual concept of men shagging each other Laughing out loud)

People need to get over the idea that just because a man and a woman can make babies doesn't make sex between a man/man and a woman/woman wrong.

I recall in highschool my friends saying how "hot it was for two attractive women" to make out and have sex. When two men did it then it was wrong. Huh?

This is a good example of role playing in our minds. Men watch a guy and a girl go at it, but they are thinking that the guy is them. The fantasize that they are that guy and they are pleasing the woman. When it is two women, they do the same thing but it is visually in their mind. They can't get over the man/man thing because mentally they don't see a woman.

Free will is an illusion. People always choose the perceived path of greatest pleasure.

-Scott Adams


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Your last sentence strikes

Your last sentence strikes me as true

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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                                                                                           Chaz, you're looking fine !