@theists: are you trying to change us or understand us?

digitalbeachbum
atheistRational VIP!
digitalbeachbum's picture
Posts: 3076
Joined: 2007-10-15
User is offlineOffline
@theists: are you trying to change us or understand us?

Before I ask my question to the theists I will admit that I've done similar things when visiting a theist website, but with a very specific agenda. I was very curious at how some types of theists thought so I would log in and watch their posts.

As for my question to the theists, what exactly are you doing here? Are you trying to convert us? test us? test yourself? or maybe you are unsure of your belief system and are searching for other possibilities?

@atheists, feel free to post if you have an opinion.

 

Free will is an illusion. People always choose the perceived path of greatest pleasure.

-Scott Adams


tonyjeffers
tonyjeffers's picture
Posts: 482
Joined: 2012-02-14
User is offlineOffline
I think it is a little bit

I think it is a little bit of insecurity or doubt they just can't come to terms with.  My mother is a perfect example of this king of christian. Every once in a while just out of the blue she will try to make some stupid mundane point of why I should return to christianity.  And I'll just stare at her for a second. She can see in my face that I'm thinking how ridiculous she sounds. She might as well be telling me that a pig just flew out of her ass.  She really thinks I'm a wise man and If she could just get me to believe then that would reconfirm her own beliefs. It's complete denial. I can see the doubt in her eyes but theres just no way in hell she can turn back now. Having to admit you've been living in delusion and been part of a cult for 60 yrs is not an easy thing to do.  She would rather go on pretending the rest of her life than to own up to the truth. It's a matter of pride. 

Then there are the kind of people who are the only ones in the world who think that their ugly little brat kids are just cute little bundles of joy in everyone's eyes.  You know, the kind who just can't possibly accept the fact that country music may not be the greatest music in the world to everyone.

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


ax
Theist
ax's picture
Posts: 86
Joined: 2012-02-10
User is offlineOffline
digitalbeachbum wrote:

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Before I ask my question to the theists I will admit that I've done similar things when visiting a theist website, but with a very specific agenda. I was very curious at how some types of theists thought so I would log in and watch their posts.

As for my question to the theists, what exactly are you doing here? Are you trying to convert us? test us? test yourself? or maybe you are unsure of your belief system and are searching for other possibilities?

@atheists, feel free to post if you have an opinion.

This sounds similar to my first post - Why are you here?

Since ironically no one directly asked me this question in my post, here's a quick back story.. I have a young Earth creationist acquaintance who consistently advocates Kent Hovind in our debates.. One day I decided to research this felon and upon reading the Wikipedia page, under the section "YouTube copyright controversy", I found a reference to RRS.. and here I am.

I stay here because the discussions are curious and entertaining. After some observation I have noticed many people who come here with a specific religious preference rigorously defend their position regardless of the other persons argument, so it would be pointless to try to persuade either side towards my specific beliefs.

I do believe my ideas are within reason, and as they become solidified, I will continue to test them here. To this point you could say I am testing all of you and myself as well.

Anyone who holds an agnostic position is "unsure" of their beliefs by definition. I simply seek to find a naturalistic explanation for the grand architect and have faith that this proof is awaiting discovery. The agnostic atheist is similar, but may counter that this search is pointless as there is nothing to discover. We are at a standoff in this regard.

From my short time here I have gathered that many atheists would gladly change their beliefs if given proper evidence.


tonyjeffers
tonyjeffers's picture
Posts: 482
Joined: 2012-02-14
User is offlineOffline
ax wrote:digitalbeachbum

ax wrote:

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Before I ask my question to the theists I will admit that I've done similar things when visiting a theist website, but with a very specific agenda. I was very curious at how some types of theists thought so I would log in and watch their posts.

As for my question to the theists, what exactly are you doing here? Are you trying to convert us? test us? test yourself? or maybe you are unsure of your belief system and are searching for other possibilities?

@atheists, feel free to post if you have an opinion.

This sounds similar to my first post - Why are you here?

Since ironically no one directly asked me this question in my post, here's a quick back story.. I have a young Earth creationist acquaintance who consistently advocates Kent Hovind in our debates.. One day I decided to research this felon and upon reading the Wikipedia page, under the section "YouTube copyright controversy", I found a reference to RRS.. and here I am.

I stay here because the discussions are curious and entertaining. After some observation I have noticed many people who come here with a specific religious preference rigorously defend their position regardless of the other persons argument, so it would be pointless to try to persuade either side towards my specific beliefs.

I do believe my ideas are within reason, and as they become solidified, I will continue to test them here. To this point you could say I am testing all of you and myself as well.

Anyone who holds an agnostic position is "unsure" of their beliefs by definition. I simply seek to find a naturalistic explanation for the grand architect and have faith that this proof is awaiting discovery. The agnostic atheist is similar, but may counter that this search is pointless as there is nothing to discover. We are at a standoff in this regard.

From my short time here I have gathered that many atheists would gladly change their beliefs if given proper evidence.

After reading your post I realize that I didn't really specify that I was regarding only christians in my comment.  I do not find it easy to group all theists together, although I no longer accept the term agnostic.  I don't want to start another definitions and semantics argument here because I find them to be silly.

I do however observe that most christians' purpose here seem to be the same, regardless of what they may say. There are the few that claim to be here just to proclaim the word of Christ, but ironically are quick to cop-out with the "pearls before swine" crap.

I respect your statement of purpose here and I would "believe" in something if given proper evidence. I came here about the same way. I was reading an article by Victor Stenger and stumbled upon this site. I wasn't expecting as many christians here but they do bring entertainment value. I suspect that strictly atheist vs theist debate would quickly become boring.

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


digitalbeachbum
atheistRational VIP!
digitalbeachbum's picture
Posts: 3076
Joined: 2007-10-15
User is offlineOffline
ax wrote:digitalbeachbum

ax wrote:

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Before I ask my question to the theists I will admit that I've done similar things when visiting a theist website, but with a very specific agenda. I was very curious at how some types of theists thought so I would log in and watch their posts.

As for my question to the theists, what exactly are you doing here? Are you trying to convert us? test us? test yourself? or maybe you are unsure of your belief system and are searching for other possibilities?

@atheists, feel free to post if you have an opinion.

This sounds similar to my first post - Why are you here?

Since ironically no one directly asked me this question in my post, here's a quick back story.. I have a young Earth creationist acquaintance who consistently advocates Kent Hovind in our debates.. One day I decided to research this felon and upon reading the Wikipedia page, under the section "YouTube copyright controversy", I found a reference to RRS.. and here I am.

I stay here because the discussions are curious and entertaining. After some observation I have noticed many people who come here with a specific religious preference rigorously defend their position regardless of the other persons argument, so it would be pointless to try to persuade either side towards my specific beliefs.

I do believe my ideas are within reason, and as they become solidified, I will continue to test them here. To this point you could say I am testing all of you and myself as well.

Anyone who holds an agnostic position is "unsure" of their beliefs by definition. I simply seek to find a naturalistic explanation for the grand architect and have faith that this proof is awaiting discovery. The agnostic atheist is similar, but may counter that this search is pointless as there is nothing to discover. We are at a standoff in this regard.

From my short time here I have gathered that many atheists would gladly change their beliefs if given proper evidence.

What happened to your "acquaintance"? I have known several and it baffles me how they believe what they believe. I find them to be no different than people who follow Sarah Palin, Glen Beck or Ruch Limbaugh. They are blind and don't want to know the truth. They just follow and repeat every thing they are told.

Free will is an illusion. People always choose the perceived path of greatest pleasure.

-Scott Adams


buddyd
Theist
buddyd's picture
Posts: 48
Joined: 2012-03-26
User is offlineOffline
digitalbeachbum wrote:Before

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Before I ask my question to the theists I will admit that I've done similar things when visiting a theist website, but with a very specific agenda. I was very curious at how some types of theists thought so I would log in and watch their posts.

As for my question to the theists, what exactly are you doing here? Are you trying to convert us? test us? test yourself? or maybe you are unsure of your belief system and are searching for other possibilities?

@atheists, feel free to post if you have an opinion.

 

 

I came to this website to convert, test you, and to test myself. If someone does believe in the God of the Bible and if they do believe that without faith in Jesus Christ people die and go to hell then it would be appalling for them not to try and convert others. If there were a bomb in the room and it were about to explode then tell me, worry about my feelings later. Assuming that most of you know people who are Christians I would be offended if they thought I was an Atheist and said nothing. If I'm wrong about Christianity I'm a fool, but I don't think you can be angry by the fact I want to share the Gospel (good news) that people can be saved from hell through Jesus Christ.


tonyjeffers
tonyjeffers's picture
Posts: 482
Joined: 2012-02-14
User is offlineOffline
buddyd wrote:digitalbeachbum

buddyd wrote:

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Before I ask my question to the theists I will admit that I've done similar things when visiting a theist website, but with a very specific agenda. I was very curious at how some types of theists thought so I would log in and watch their posts.

As for my question to the theists, what exactly are you doing here? Are you trying to convert us? test us? test yourself? or maybe you are unsure of your belief system and are searching for other possibilities?

@atheists, feel free to post if you have an opinion.

 

 

I came to this website to convert, test you, and to test myself. If someone does believe in the God of the Bible and if they do believe that without faith in Jesus Christ people die and go to hell then it would be appalling for them not to try and convert others. If there were a bomb in the room and it were about to explode then tell me, worry about my feelings later. Assuming that most of you know people who are Christians I would be offended if they thought I was an Atheist and said nothing. If I'm wrong about Christianity I'm a fool, but I don't think you can be angry by the fact I want to share the Gospel (good news) that people can be saved from hell through Jesus Christ.

However good your intentions may be, you need to consider, what I firmly believe to be a fact, that the bible is a poison to impressionable minds.  It is a lie.  The authors  speak poison with two tongues. Those who fall prey to it live in delusion and fear of a make-believe, cruel, and hypocritical God.  So to say that if you are wrong then you are just a fool and so what, no harm done, is completely wrong. The bomb threat you speak of is a false alarm. People are getting hurt running from it and it is greatly slowing the  progress of the class.

I only find you guilty of ignorance and mental abuse to your victims. I used to be a christian myself. I hope everyone can forgive me for my stupidity.

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


Teralek
Theist
Teralek's picture
Posts: 614
Joined: 2010-07-15
User is offlineOffline
I'm putting my ideas to the

I'm putting my ideas to the test. Get them bombarded heavily. Changing and evolving them in the process. Thus making them stronger.

My beliefs actually changed somewhat since I joined this forum. I have you to thank for it as well. This is one of the freest places on the internet to discuss ideas. I thank the moderators for that.

______________________________________________________________
"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies


buddyd
Theist
buddyd's picture
Posts: 48
Joined: 2012-03-26
User is offlineOffline
To Tony: If there is no God

To Tony: If there is no God then me poisoning the minds of others shouldn't matter. I would say that morality doesn't exist if there is no God. I am pastor of a church, I don't force anyone to come. What specifically is your problem with Christianity? What belief of Christianity do you think is harming others? I don't hate anyone, I'm not violent, I am charitable. I am not perfect but I think most would like me if they got to know me. 2.1 billion people claim Christianity, finding a bad one wouldn't be hard, but what do you find harmful in Christian theology?


digitalbeachbum
atheistRational VIP!
digitalbeachbum's picture
Posts: 3076
Joined: 2007-10-15
User is offlineOffline
buddyd wrote:digitalbeachbum

buddyd wrote:

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Before I ask my question to the theists I will admit that I've done similar things when visiting a theist website, but with a very specific agenda. I was very curious at how some types of theists thought so I would log in and watch their posts.

As for my question to the theists, what exactly are you doing here? Are you trying to convert us? test us? test yourself? or maybe you are unsure of your belief system and are searching for other possibilities?

@atheists, feel free to post if you have an opinion.

 

I came to this website to convert, test you, and to test myself. If someone does believe in the God of the Bible and if they do believe that without faith in Jesus Christ people die and go to hell then it would be appalling for them not to try and convert others. If there were a bomb in the room and it were about to explode then tell me, worry about my feelings later. Assuming that most of you know people who are Christians I would be offended if they thought I was an Atheist and said nothing. If I'm wrong about Christianity I'm a fool, but I don't think you can be angry by the fact I want to share the Gospel (good news) that people can be saved from hell through Jesus Christ.

Thanks for the reply.

Did you know that the "devil" and the "hell" we know here in america didn't exist before christianity?

 

Free will is an illusion. People always choose the perceived path of greatest pleasure.

-Scott Adams


digitalbeachbum
atheistRational VIP!
digitalbeachbum's picture
Posts: 3076
Joined: 2007-10-15
User is offlineOffline
Teralek wrote:I'm putting my

Teralek wrote:

I'm putting my ideas to the test. Get them bombarded heavily. Changing and evolving them in the process. Thus making them stronger.

My beliefs actually changed somewhat since I joined this forum. I have you to thank for it as well. This is one of the freest places on the internet to discuss ideas. I thank the moderators for that.

Cool.

I feel like religion needs to change to survive. If it doesn't it will eventually be tossed aside for something new.

Free will is an illusion. People always choose the perceived path of greatest pleasure.

-Scott Adams


buddyd
Theist
buddyd's picture
Posts: 48
Joined: 2012-03-26
User is offlineOffline
The word "hell" is misused a

The word "hell" is misused a lot of times in Christianity. Hell is the eternal place mentioned in the New Testament but not even created yet. The New Testament revealed a lot of things that were not in the OT but hell is vague in the Bible. I disagree on Satan, he may get more face time in the NT but he is mentioned in the OT.


Teralek
Theist
Teralek's picture
Posts: 614
Joined: 2010-07-15
User is offlineOffline
buddyd wrote:To Tony: If

buddyd wrote:

To Tony: If there is no God then me poisoning the minds of others shouldn't matter. I would say that morality doesn't exist if there is no God. I am pastor of a church, I don't force anyone to come. What specifically is your problem with Christianity? What belief of Christianity do you think is harming others? I don't hate anyone, I'm not violent, I am charitable. I am not perfect but I think most would like me if they got to know me. 2.1 billion people claim Christianity, finding a bad one wouldn't be hard, but what do you find harmful in Christian theology?

Can I give my thoughts on this?

Christianity is WAY WAY better if we look at history. But still............. there some details to work on:

- Priests that incur in pedophile activities or other illegal activities are still getting a lot of protection from the church.

- Given the uncontrollable growth of human population and specially AIDS being against the condom and any human contraception is ridiculous. Church should get out of peoples pants (sex)

- The church speaks often as a moral compass in the western world and many people by culture tradition alone follow church "opinion" blindly without question. The church should encourage people to seek the truth by them selves and not blindly follow it.

- The church should repudiate any mix with politics and denounce  what's happening now in the US in this regard,  as an example.

- The standpoint of the Pope surrounded with all those riches is inconsistent with a follower of Jesus. You want to know how a Pope should be? Easy! Look at Gandhi!


 

______________________________________________________________
"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies


digitalbeachbum
atheistRational VIP!
digitalbeachbum's picture
Posts: 3076
Joined: 2007-10-15
User is offlineOffline
buddyd wrote:The word "hell"

buddyd wrote:

The word "hell" is misused a lot of times in Christianity. Hell is the eternal place mentioned in the New Testament but not even created yet. The New Testament revealed a lot of things that were not in the OT but hell is vague in the Bible. I disagree on Satan, he may get more face time in the NT but he is mentioned in the OT.

The issue with satan is that he wasn't described as being the "Satan" today. He wasn't a fallen angel nor was he actually a "being". He was more of a mental adversary. I am too tired now to go out and get the info that supports my view but I'll post again tomorrow.

Free will is an illusion. People always choose the perceived path of greatest pleasure.

-Scott Adams


buddyd
Theist
buddyd's picture
Posts: 48
Joined: 2012-03-26
User is offlineOffline
Teralek wrote:buddyd

Teralek wrote:

buddyd wrote:

To Tony: If there is no God then me poisoning the minds of others shouldn't matter. I would say that morality doesn't exist if there is no God. I am pastor of a church, I don't force anyone to come. What specifically is your problem with Christianity? What belief of Christianity do you think is harming others? I don't hate anyone, I'm not violent, I am charitable. I am not perfect but I think most would like me if they got to know me. 2.1 billion people claim Christianity, finding a bad one wouldn't be hard, but what do you find harmful in Christian theology?

Can I give my thoughts on this?

Christianity is WAY WAY better if we look at history. But still............. there some details to work on:

- Priests that incur in pedophile activities or other illegal activities are still getting a lot of protection from the church.

- Given the uncontrollable growth of human population and specially AIDS being against the condom and any human contraception is ridiculous. Church should get out of peoples pants (sex)

- The church speaks often as a moral compass in the western world and many people by culture tradition alone follow church "opinion" blindly without question. The church should encourage people to seek the truth by them selves and not blindly follow it.

- The church should repudiate any mix with politics and denounce  what's happening now in the US in this regard,  as an example.

- The standpoint of the Pope surrounded with all those riches is inconsistent with a follower of Jesus. You want to know how a Pope should be? Easy! Look at Gandhi!


 

Most of this is directed at the Catholic Church. I am not Catholic I am Baptist. Anyone who is abusing children should be exposed and stopped no matter what reputations are harmed. I am not against condoms but I do believe in preaching abstinence. I have no problem with people questioning anything, if truth is true then we can question it all we want and it will still be true. I never put down our President (but I do disagree completely with his politics) at the church. I teach the Bible's version of morality and I let that influence lives which I assume will come through in their voting. But I would never say vote for this guy or do not vote for this guy. Love him or hate him I am voting for Mitt Romney in this election, while I do not believe he is a Christian. He is Mormon and does not believe that Jesus is eternal God. If there were a major moral controversy in politics I could see myself weighing in on the subject in during a church service if it were relevant to what I was preaching, but I believe I have a much bigger goal on a Sunday morning then American politics. As far as the Pope being so wealthy I don't despise someone because they have money but it is over the top at the Vatican.


buddyd
Theist
buddyd's picture
Posts: 48
Joined: 2012-03-26
User is offlineOffline
digitalbeachbum wrote:buddyd

digitalbeachbum wrote:

buddyd wrote:

The word "hell" is misused a lot of times in Christianity. Hell is the eternal place mentioned in the New Testament but not even created yet. The New Testament revealed a lot of things that were not in the OT but hell is vague in the Bible. I disagree on Satan, he may get more face time in the NT but he is mentioned in the OT.

The issue with satan is that he wasn't described as being the "Satan" today. He wasn't a fallen angel nor was he actually a "being". He was more of a mental adversary. I am too tired now to go out and get the info that supports my view but I'll post again tomorrow.

 

The first 2 chapters of Job is a good place to get a glimpse of Satan. He is talking with God. By saying he wasn't a being I'm not sure what you mean. He may have been a spirit and not had a body, but OT talks about him.

Also Isaiah 14 goes into detail about him, one part calls him "star of dawn" which in Latin is Lucifer (the only mention of the name Lucifer, not sure how that name stuck with him though).

Also Ezekiel 28 says 11 The word of the LORD came to me: 12 “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says:

   “‘You were the seal of perfection,
   full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden,
   the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
   carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
   topaz, onyx and jasper,
   lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.[b]
Your settings and mountings[c] were made of gold;
   on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
   for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
   you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
   from the day you were created
   till wickedness was found in you.
16 Through your widespread trade
   you were filled with violence,
   and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
   and I expelled you, guardian cherub,
   from among the fiery stones.
17 Your heart became proud
   on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
   because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
   I made a spectacle of you before kings.
18 By your many sins and dishonest trade
   you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
   and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
   in the sight of all who were watching.
19 All the nations who knew you
   are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
   and will be no more.’”

 

 

It does say that it is talking to the king of Tyre but it gives attributes that no man could have. Such as being in Eden also being thrown to earth. Also it calls him a Cherub which is a type of angel.


tonyjeffers
tonyjeffers's picture
Posts: 482
Joined: 2012-02-14
User is offlineOffline
buddyd wrote:To Tony: If

buddyd wrote:

To Tony: If there is no God then me poisoning the minds of others shouldn't matter. I would say that morality doesn't exist if there is no God. I am pastor of a church, I don't force anyone to come. What specifically is your problem with Christianity? What belief of Christianity do you think is harming others? I don't hate anyone, I'm not violent, I am charitable. I am not perfect but I think most would like me if they got to know me. 2.1 billion people claim Christianity, finding a bad one wouldn't be hard, but what do you find harmful in Christian theology?

Well this for starters  http://www.rationalresponders.com/stop_fear   it is really only specific about fear and ignorance.   Poisoning minds is harmful whether there is no God or not.  To make someone believe in Santa Clause and spread the word about him is just as devious as you would be making a fool of him.  The church has so greatly retarded the progress of man and science it is a travesty.  The doctrine of giving all you have to the poor and turn your enemy the other cheek for him to smite you again is quite a devious concept.  What better mentality to instill into the minds of your enemies? It's quite ingenious really.  Those 2.1 billion you speak of have been decieved and weakened.  If there is one thing I have learned it is that 90% of the people are always wrong.  If I'm the last one standing among christians it still would not matter.  God is a lie and I hate lies.  You can be the sweetest man in the world but I think what you are doing is wrong, no matter what your intentions. 

This short post of mine says it all  http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/31294

 

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


buddyd
Theist
buddyd's picture
Posts: 48
Joined: 2012-03-26
User is offlineOffline
My point is that if there is

My point is that if there is no God then I do not see the problem with lying. It's a question I have asked many of my Christian friends and have got different answers. Would you be the same person if you believed there was no God? I think I would be very different. I would lie, cheat, and steal to find riches and pleasure. This is one of my problems with Atheist, why do you care what I do? The goal of life is to do what pleases you if there is no God. I would see no difference in humans and animals, my goal is food, sex, and safety.

 

I believe in God because of the complexity of life, thinking that someone more intelligent than must have initiated the universe.

I can not conceive that something could come from nothing in our natural world. I can not comprehend how something such as matter or energy could evolve into thought. Meaning how could energy or non living material evolve into something which thinks.

I believe in God because of dreams I have dreamed and emotions I have felt. Things that have happened that seem to be more than just a coincidence. As sure as you may be you can not disprove God. I believe I am spreading the truth.


buddyd
Theist
buddyd's picture
Posts: 48
Joined: 2012-03-26
User is offlineOffline
I read your post, if there

I read your post, if there is no God once again I would say so what if they killed her. We do what must be done to have our way. Life revolves around me because I am all that matters. If I do not exist then to me the universe doesn't exist.


Atheistextremist
atheistSilver Member
Atheistextremist's picture
Posts: 5100
Joined: 2009-09-17
User is offlineOffline
Nice post Ax

ax wrote:

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Before I ask my question to the theists I will admit that I've done similar things when visiting a theist website, but with a very specific agenda. I was very curious at how some types of theists thought so I would log in and watch their posts.

As for my question to the theists, what exactly are you doing here? Are you trying to convert us? test us? test yourself? or maybe you are unsure of your belief system and are searching for other possibilities?

@atheists, feel free to post if you have an opinion.

This sounds similar to my first post - Why are you here?

Since ironically no one directly asked me this question in my post, here's a quick back story.. I have a young Earth creationist acquaintance who consistently advocates Kent Hovind in our debates.. One day I decided to research this felon and upon reading the Wikipedia page, under the section "YouTube copyright controversy", I found a reference to RRS.. and here I am.

I stay here because the discussions are curious and entertaining. After some observation I have noticed many people who come here with a specific religious preference rigorously defend their position regardless of the other persons argument, so it would be pointless to try to persuade either side towards my specific beliefs.

I do believe my ideas are within reason, and as they become solidified, I will continue to test them here. To this point you could say I am testing all of you and myself as well.

Anyone who holds an agnostic position is "unsure" of their beliefs by definition. I simply seek to find a naturalistic explanation for the grand architect and have faith that this proof is awaiting discovery. The agnostic atheist is similar, but may counter that this search is pointless as there is nothing to discover. We are at a standoff in this regard.

From my short time here I have gathered that many atheists would gladly change their beliefs if given proper evidence.

 

I don't think there's proof of a god personally but this sort of thoughtful theism is broadly ok by me. 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


neptewn
Silver Member
neptewn's picture
Posts: 296
Joined: 2007-06-25
User is offlineOffline
buddyd wrote:My point is

buddyd wrote:

My point is that if there is no God then I do not see the problem with lying. It's a question I have asked many of my Christian friends and have got different answers. Would you be the same person if you believed there was no God? I think I would be very different. I would lie, cheat, and steal to find riches and pleasure. This is one of my problems with Atheist, why do you care what I do? The goal of life is to do what pleases you if there is no God. I would see no difference in humans and animals, my goal is food, sex, and safety.

 

I believe in God because of the complexity of life, thinking that someone more intelligent than must have initiated the universe.

I can not conceive that something could come from nothing in our natural world. I can not comprehend how something such as matter or energy could evolve into thought. Meaning how could energy or non living material evolve into something which thinks.

I believe in God because of dreams I have dreamed and emotions I have felt. Things that have happened that seem to be more than just a coincidence. As sure as you may be you can not disprove God. I believe I am spreading the truth.

All you need to do is look for evidence. Are prisons filled with atheist in disproportionate numbers to the populace? The answer is no...

Your mind will answer most questions if you learn to relax and wait for the answer. - William S. Burroughs


tonyjeffers
tonyjeffers's picture
Posts: 482
Joined: 2012-02-14
User is offlineOffline
buddyd wrote:My point is

buddyd wrote:

My point is that if there is no God then I do not see the problem with lying. It's a question I have asked many of my Christian friends and have got different answers. Would you be the same person if you believed there was no God? I think I would be very different. I would lie, cheat, and steal to find riches and pleasure. This is one of my problems with Atheist, why do you care what I do? The goal of life is to do what pleases you if there is no God. I would see no difference in humans and animals, my goal is food, sex, and safety.

 

I believe in God because of the complexity of life, thinking that someone more intelligent than must have initiated the universe.

I can not conceive that something could come from nothing in our natural world. I can not comprehend how something such as matter or energy could evolve into thought. Meaning how could energy or non living material evolve into something which thinks.

I believe in God because of dreams I have dreamed and emotions I have felt. Things that have happened that seem to be more than just a coincidence. As sure as you may be you can not disprove God. I believe I am spreading the truth.

Just a suggestion- these threads can get quite long, so if you use your quote function with your reply everyone can easily tell who you are addressing. Just hit quote and you'll see the cursor. 

Theism is not completely disprovable to me though no one has succeeded in proving it, but you are preaching about the God of Abraham and Jesus Christ which is easily disprovable because it is a fallacy and the burden of proof is on you. What proof do you have but here-say?

A standard of acceptable practice of living does not require a god.  Just taking god out of the equation does not make us unscrupulous animals. You clearly do not accept any part of evolution. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


buddyd
Theist
buddyd's picture
Posts: 48
Joined: 2012-03-26
User is offlineOffline
tonyjeffers wrote:buddyd

tonyjeffers wrote:

buddyd wrote:

My point is that if there is no God then I do not see the problem with lying. It's a question I have asked many of my Christian friends and have got different answers. Would you be the same person if you believed there was no God? I think I would be very different. I would lie, cheat, and steal to find riches and pleasure. This is one of my problems with Atheist, why do you care what I do? The goal of life is to do what pleases you if there is no God. I would see no difference in humans and animals, my goal is food, sex, and safety.

 

I believe in God because of the complexity of life, thinking that someone more intelligent than must have initiated the universe.

I can not conceive that something could come from nothing in our natural world. I can not comprehend how something such as matter or energy could evolve into thought. Meaning how could energy or non living material evolve into something which thinks.

I believe in God because of dreams I have dreamed and emotions I have felt. Things that have happened that seem to be more than just a coincidence. As sure as you may be you can not disprove God. I believe I am spreading the truth.

Just a suggestion- these threads can get quite long, so if you use your quote function with your reply everyone can easily tell who you are addressing. Just hit quote and you'll see the cursor. 

Theism is not completely disprovable to me though no one has succeeded in proving it, but you are preaching about the God of Abraham and Jesus Christ which is easily disprovable because it is a fallacy and the burden of proof is on you. What proof do you have but here-say?

A standard of acceptable practice of living does not require a god.  Just taking god out of the equation does not make us unscrupulous animals. You clearly do not accept any part of evolution. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

 

Thanks for the tip on the quote.

How is the God of Abraham and Jesus disprovable?

 

No one can I absolutely prove my God but here are a few interesting facts (I'm sure you have heard them before).

Daniel 8:19 He said: “I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end. 20 The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. 21 The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between its eyes is the first king. 22 The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power.

 

A couple of hundred years before it happened Daniel predicted that Greece would take over the world and 4 kings would come out of that kingdom. Alexander the Great takes the known world and at his death his 4 generals take over.   Really good pick Daniel

 

The martyr of some of the leaders. If they were being tortured to stop proclaim what they had eye witnessed and they refused then that makes me tend to believe they must be telling the truth.

 

 


buddyd
Theist
buddyd's picture
Posts: 48
Joined: 2012-03-26
User is offlineOffline
If there is no God then I

If there is no God then I would lean to some sort of evolution. But we are talking about evolution having nothing and turning it into thought. I wish I had faith like that.


buddyd
Theist
buddyd's picture
Posts: 48
Joined: 2012-03-26
User is offlineOffline
neptewn wrote:buddyd

neptewn wrote:

buddyd wrote:

My point is that if there is no God then I do not see the problem with lying. It's a question I have asked many of my Christian friends and have got different answers. Would you be the same person if you believed there was no God? I think I would be very different. I would lie, cheat, and steal to find riches and pleasure. This is one of my problems with Atheist, why do you care what I do? The goal of life is to do what pleases you if there is no God. I would see no difference in humans and animals, my goal is food, sex, and safety.

 

I believe in God because of the complexity of life, thinking that someone more intelligent than must have initiated the universe.

I can not conceive that something could come from nothing in our natural world. I can not comprehend how something such as matter or energy could evolve into thought. Meaning how could energy or non living material evolve into something which thinks.

I believe in God because of dreams I have dreamed and emotions I have felt. Things that have happened that seem to be more than just a coincidence. As sure as you may be you can not disprove God. I believe I am spreading the truth.

All you need to do is look for evidence. Are prisons filled with atheist in disproportionate numbers to the populace? The answer is no...

 

I bet if you were locked in a cell with a bunch of large angry men you would lose your atheist  ask for divine intervention also


tonyjeffers
tonyjeffers's picture
Posts: 482
Joined: 2012-02-14
User is offlineOffline
buddyd wrote:tonyjeffers

buddyd wrote:

tonyjeffers wrote:

buddyd wrote:

My point is that if there is no God then I do not see the problem with lying. It's a question I have asked many of my Christian friends and have got different answers. Would you be the same person if you believed there was no God? I think I would be very different. I would lie, cheat, and steal to find riches and pleasure. This is one of my problems with Atheist, why do you care what I do? The goal of life is to do what pleases you if there is no God. I would see no difference in humans and animals, my goal is food, sex, and safety.

 

I believe in God because of the complexity of life, thinking that someone more intelligent than must have initiated the universe.

I can not conceive that something could come from nothing in our natural world. I can not comprehend how something such as matter or energy could evolve into thought. Meaning how could energy or non living material evolve into something which thinks.

I believe in God because of dreams I have dreamed and emotions I have felt. Things that have happened that seem to be more than just a coincidence. As sure as you may be you can not disprove God. I believe I am spreading the truth.

Just a suggestion- these threads can get quite long, so if you use your quote function with your reply everyone can easily tell who you are addressing. Just hit quote and you'll see the cursor. 

Theism is not completely disprovable to me though no one has succeeded in proving it, but you are preaching about the God of Abraham and Jesus Christ which is easily disprovable because it is a fallacy and the burden of proof is on you. What proof do you have but here-say?

A standard of acceptable practice of living does not require a god.  Just taking god out of the equation does not make us unscrupulous animals. You clearly do not accept any part of evolution. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

 

Thanks for the tip on the quote.

How is the God of Abraham and Jesus disprovable?

 

No one can I absolutely prove my God but here are a few interesting facts (I'm sure you have heard them before).

Daniel 8:19 He said: “I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end. 20 The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. 21 The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between its eyes is the first king. 22 The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power.

 

A couple of hundred years before it happened Daniel predicted that Greece would take over the world and 4 kings would come out of that kingdom. Alexander the Great takes the known world and at his death his 4 generals take over.   Really good pick Daniel

 

The martyr of some of the leaders. If they were being tortured to stop proclaim what they had eye witnessed and they refused then that makes me tend to believe they must be telling the truth.

 

 

Every time I try to select parts of a post and quote it just gets screwed up so I gave up for the time being. I guess our conversation will become one giant quote. lol  I've asked for help in numerous threads but there aren't many helpful people here.  I guess they just wanna laugh at the digital retard. 

This is the very basis of my here-say argument. You are accepting that all these stories are true solely on faith that the authors had to be telling a true story. Why? Just because that's what you were taught to do? Do you not question the authenticity of any of it?  And it is quite clear that many of these characters were just self-fullfilling prophets.  If it did happen and they were willing to go to thier torturous deaths for their beliefs doesn't bring them any credibility to me.  Many are willing to die just to go down in the books as a martyr, but that only makes them phanatical in thier beliefs, whether it be in religious context or not. 

Tell me, do you accept the bible to be true in every word from beginning to end? Do you think some of the tales in the OT were just metaphors? or was the garden, ark, Jonah in the whale, etc all true stories?

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


neptewn
Silver Member
neptewn's picture
Posts: 296
Joined: 2007-06-25
User is offlineOffline
buddyd wrote:neptewn

buddyd wrote:

neptewn wrote:

buddyd wrote:

My point is that if there is no God then I do not see the problem with lying. It's a question I have asked many of my Christian friends and have got different answers. Would you be the same person if you believed there was no God? I think I would be very different. I would lie, cheat, and steal to find riches and pleasure. This is one of my problems with Atheist, why do you care what I do? The goal of life is to do what pleases you if there is no God. I would see no difference in humans and animals, my goal is food, sex, and safety.

 

I believe in God because of the complexity of life, thinking that someone more intelligent than must have initiated the universe.

I can not conceive that something could come from nothing in our natural world. I can not comprehend how something such as matter or energy could evolve into thought. Meaning how could energy or non living material evolve into something which thinks.

I believe in God because of dreams I have dreamed and emotions I have felt. Things that have happened that seem to be more than just a coincidence. As sure as you may be you can not disprove God. I believe I am spreading the truth.

All you need to do is look for evidence. Are prisons filled with atheist in disproportionate numbers to the populace? The answer is no...

 

I bet if you were locked in a cell with a bunch of large angry men you would lose your atheist  ask for divine intervention also

Think

Your mind will answer most questions if you learn to relax and wait for the answer. - William S. Burroughs


buddyd
Theist
buddyd's picture
Posts: 48
Joined: 2012-03-26
User is offlineOffline
neptewn wrote:buddyd

neptewn wrote:

buddyd wrote:

neptewn wrote:

buddyd wrote:

My point is that if there is no God then I do not see the problem with lying. It's a question I have asked many of my Christian friends and have got different answers. Would you be the same person if you believed there was no God? I think I would be very different. I would lie, cheat, and steal to find riches and pleasure. This is one of my problems with Atheist, why do you care what I do? The goal of life is to do what pleases you if there is no God. I would see no difference in humans and animals, my goal is food, sex, and safety.

 

I believe in God because of the complexity of life, thinking that someone more intelligent than must have initiated the universe.

I can not conceive that something could come from nothing in our natural world. I can not comprehend how something such as matter or energy could evolve into thought. Meaning how could energy or non living material evolve into something which thinks.

I believe in God because of dreams I have dreamed and emotions I have felt. Things that have happened that seem to be more than just a coincidence. As sure as you may be you can not disprove God. I believe I am spreading the truth.

All you need to do is look for evidence. Are prisons filled with atheist in disproportionate numbers to the populace? The answer is no...

 

I bet if you were locked in a cell with a bunch of large angry men you would lose your atheist  ask for divine intervention also

Think

 

It was a silly response to a silly statement. sorry for bad humor


buddyd
Theist
buddyd's picture
Posts: 48
Joined: 2012-03-26
User is offlineOffline
tonyjeffers wrote:buddyd

tonyjeffers wrote:

buddyd wrote:

tonyjeffers wrote:

 

Every time I try to select parts of a post and quote it just gets screwed up so I gave up for the time being. I guess our conversation will become one giant quote. lol  I've asked for help in numerous threads but there aren't many helpful people here.  I guess they just wanna laugh at the digital retard. 

This is the very basis of my here-say argument. You are accepting that all these stories are true solely on faith that the authors had to be telling a true story. Why? Just because that's what you were taught to do? Do you not question the authenticity of any of it?  And it is quite clear that many of these characters were just self-fullfilling prophets.  If it did happen and they were willing to go to thier torturous deaths for their beliefs doesn't bring them any credibility to me.  Many are willing to die just to go down in the books as a martyr, but that only makes them phanatical in thier beliefs, whether it be in religious context or not. 

Tell me, do you accept the bible to be true in every word from beginning to end? Do you think some of the tales in the OT were just metaphors? or was the garden, ark, Jonah in the whale, etc all true stories?

 

The fact that they were tortured and did not turn on the faith is not absolute proof but nothing could be from an event 2000 years ago. But it's a great piece of evidence. It wasn't just one guy it was multiple eye witnesses martyred without turning.

 

I say that the original documents were without error. I believe that it is the Word of God for us to read study do our best to understand who God is. I believe that the events in the OT literally happened but sometimes the story tell uses metaphors and parables at times but that is usually can be discerned. Yes I believe in garden, Jonah and the whale etc. If you want to argue the Bible you have to argue Genesis chapter 1. If you concede that their is a God and He was able to create the universe in 6 days then manipulating anything or any law within that creation really isn't a big deal.


tonyjeffers
tonyjeffers's picture
Posts: 482
Joined: 2012-02-14
User is offlineOffline
For buddyd

When you get some spare time tell me what you think of the first video in this post by our friend luminon   http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/31511   it is part of a great series on you tube by a very insightful young man named  Evid3nc3  I recommend any of his videos.  The other videos in luminons post are from different people who I do not vouche for so don't hold them against me

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


tonyjeffers
tonyjeffers's picture
Posts: 482
Joined: 2012-02-14
User is offlineOffline
buddyd wrote:tonyjeffers

buddyd wrote:

tonyjeffers wrote:

buddyd wrote:

tonyjeffers wrote:

 

Every time I try to select parts of a post and quote it just gets screwed up so I gave up for the time being. I guess our conversation will become one giant quote. lol  I've asked for help in numerous threads but there aren't many helpful people here.  I guess they just wanna laugh at the digital retard. 

This is the very basis of my here-say argument. You are accepting that all these stories are true solely on faith that the authors had to be telling a true story. Why? Just because that's what you were taught to do? Do you not question the authenticity of any of it?  And it is quite clear that many of these characters were just self-fullfilling prophets.  If it did happen and they were willing to go to thier torturous deaths for their beliefs doesn't bring them any credibility to me.  Many are willing to die just to go down in the books as a martyr, but that only makes them phanatical in thier beliefs, whether it be in religious context or not. 

Tell me, do you accept the bible to be true in every word from beginning to end? Do you think some of the tales in the OT were just metaphors? or was the garden, ark, Jonah in the whale, etc all true stories?

 

 

The fact that they were tortured and did not turn on the faith is not absolute proof but nothing could be from an event 2000 years ago. But it's a great piece of evidence. It wasn't just one guy it was multiple eye witnesses martyred without turning.

 

I say that the original documents were without error. I believe that it is the Word of God for us to read study do our best to understand who God is. I believe that the events in the OT literally happened but sometimes the story tell uses metaphors and parables at times but that is usually can be discerned. Yes I believe in garden, Jonah and the whale etc. If you want to argue the Bible you have to argue Genesis chapter 1. If you concede that their is a God and He was able to create the universe in 6 days then manipulating anything or any law within that creation really isn't a big deal.

Well I must say it is refreshing to talk to someone who doesn't just pick thru what they think are the good parts.  That's why I parted from christianity in the first place. If I could not accept parts of it that I cannot accept any of it.  I used to follow the teachings of Dr. Gene Scott. He was a very contreversial man, but at one time had the largest listening audience on earth by way of ahortwave radio.  He stuck by Paul in every single word.

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


x
Bronze Member
Posts: 591
Joined: 2010-06-15
User is offlineOffline
Quotes

tonyjeffers wrote:

Every time I try to select parts of a post and quote it just gets screwed up so I gave up for the time being.

 

Make sure the bit you want to quote is surrounded by

<quote=name>

and

</quote>

(replacing < with [ and > with ])

 

ie each 'quote= ' has to be terminated by a matching '/quote' (both in square brackets) and this also applies to quotes within quotes if you get my drift.


tonyjeffers
tonyjeffers's picture
Posts: 482
Joined: 2012-02-14
User is offlineOffline
x

Thank you very much "x"    I was using [ 's    I knew it was something stupid.   To the rest of you who passed my question in other posts- how fucking hard was that you unhelpful pricks?

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


x
Bronze Member
Posts: 591
Joined: 2010-06-15
User is offlineOffline
Um

tonyjeffers wrote:

Thank you very much "x"    I was using [ 's    I knew it was something stupid.   To the rest of you who passed my question in other posts- how fucking hard was that you unhelpful pricks?

 

Ah, but you should be using ['s (square brackets).

 

I was only showing it as <quote=> because if I used square brackets in my example, it would be quoted rather than shown as text.

 

So, in the following example, every time you see a '<' I mean '[' and each '>' means ']'

 

<quote=name>

the text quoted

</quote>

 

 


tonyjeffers
tonyjeffers's picture
Posts: 482
Joined: 2012-02-14
User is offlineOffline
that's funny   i got ya

that's funny   i got ya


digitalbeachbum
atheistRational VIP!
digitalbeachbum's picture
Posts: 3076
Joined: 2007-10-15
User is offlineOffline
buddyd wrote:I never put

buddyd wrote:

I never put down our President (but I do disagree completely with his politics) at the church. I teach the Bible's version of morality and I let that influence lives which I assume will come through in their voting. But I would never say vote for this guy or do not vote for this guy. Love him or hate him I am voting for Mitt Romney in this election, while I do not believe he is a Christian. He is Mormon and does not believe that Jesus is eternal God. If there were a major moral controversy in politics I could see myself weighing in on the subject in during a church service if it were relevant to what I was preaching, but I believe I have a much bigger goal on a Sunday morning then American politics. As far as the Pope being so wealthy I don't despise someone because they have money but it is over the top at the Vatican.

Here are my thoughts on the following:

1 - What are the politics that our current president has "at the church"?

2 - What is the bible's morality?

3 - Why is jesus the eternal god?

4 - The pope is wealthy because the catholic church stole, sacked or conned their riches.

Free will is an illusion. People always choose the perceived path of greatest pleasure.

-Scott Adams


digitalbeachbum
atheistRational VIP!
digitalbeachbum's picture
Posts: 3076
Joined: 2007-10-15
User is offlineOffline
buddyd wrote:The first 2

buddyd wrote:

The first 2 chapters of Job is a good place to get a glimpse of Satan. He is talking with God. By saying he wasn't a being I'm not sure what you mean. He may have been a spirit and not had a body, but OT talks about him.

Also Isaiah 14 goes into detail about him, one part calls him "star of dawn" which in Latin is Lucifer (the only mention of the name Lucifer, not sure how that name stuck with him though).

Also Ezekiel 28 says 11 The word of the LORD came to me: 12 “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says:

It does say that it is talking to the king of Tyre but it gives attributes that no man could have. Such as being in Eden also being thrown to earth. Also it calls him a Cherub which is a type of angel.

The issue is this:

1 - Judaism doesn't have references to a devil like christianity today. The references are to an assigned position which the god sent out to do a task.

2 - Lucifer is the morning star. It's a reference to an celestial body. Later it is applied to a "being"

3 - People have warped the terminology over the years. Mixed terms together while in the past they meant separate or different meanings. Many times those terms are lower case, then later they are upper case. In other words, when you start with the "adversary" it is a noun, then later it becomes a proper noun.

4 - I find the myth of a "evil being" practical for those times. People wanted to know why others did bad things. Instead of taking responsibility for their actions they say "the devil made me do it" and when you have mentally sick people they say "they are possessed by the devil".

 

Free will is an illusion. People always choose the perceived path of greatest pleasure.

-Scott Adams


buddyd
Theist
buddyd's picture
Posts: 48
Joined: 2012-03-26
User is offlineOffline
tonyjeffers wrote:When you

tonyjeffers wrote:

When you get some spare time tell me what you think of the first video in this post by our friend luminon   http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/31511   it is part of a great series on you tube by a very insightful young man named  Evid3nc3  I recommend any of his videos.  The other videos in luminons post are from different people who I do not vouche for so don't hold them against me

 

I think it is a broken link


tonyjeffers
tonyjeffers's picture
Posts: 482
Joined: 2012-02-14
User is offlineOffline
buddyd wrote:tonyjeffers

buddyd wrote:

tonyjeffers wrote:

When you get some spare time tell me what you think of the first video in this post by our friend luminon   http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/31511   it is part of a great series on you tube by a very insightful young man named  Evid3nc3  I recommend any of his videos.  The other videos in luminons post are from different people who I do not vouche for so don't hold them against me

 

I think it is a broken link

here's the you tube link part 1   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlnnWbkMlbg


 

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


ax
Theist
ax's picture
Posts: 86
Joined: 2012-02-10
User is offlineOffline
"Do you not question the authenticity of any of it?"

tonyjeffers wrote:

I respect your statement of purpose here and I would "believe" in something if given proper evidence. I came here about the same way. I was reading an article by Victor Stenger and stumbled upon this site. I wasn't expecting as many christians here but they do bring entertainment value. I suspect that strictly atheist vs theist debate would quickly become boring.

Smiling

digitalbeachbum wrote:

What happened to your "acquaintance"? I have known several and it baffles me how they believe what they believe. I find them to be no different than people who follow Sarah Palin, Glen Beck or Ruch Limbaugh. They are blind and don't want to know the truth. They just follow and repeat every thing they are told.

I eventually gave up on trying to convince him that arguments from each side are simply probabilistic equations where either can be true in many cases. E.g. The chance of getting struck by lightning is highly unlikely, but it happens.

He takes a position of absurdism against arguments that are contrary to creationism, especially towards abiogenesis, making further debate difficult. Even if I were to suggest "directed abiogenesis", the doors are so tightly shut that my words simply bounce off the gates.

However, I try not to create great divides between myself and others based on religious beliefs. To this point I try to minimize my efforts on proselytizing. Smiling

Teralek wrote:

I'm putting my ideas to the test. Get them bombarded heavily. Changing and evolving them in the process. Thus making them stronger.

My beliefs actually changed somewhat since I joined this forum. I have you to thank for it as well. This is one of the freest places on the internet to discuss ideas. I thank the moderators for that.

Ditto! ::high five::

Atheistextremist wrote:

I don't think there's proof of a god personally but this sort of thoughtful theism is broadly ok by me.

Want to bet some beers on whether a really big satellite array can give us more insight? Eye-wink

buddyd wrote:

Daniel 8:19 He said: “I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end. 20 The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. 21 The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between its eyes is the first king. 22 The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power.

A couple of hundred years before it happened Daniel predicted that Greece would take over the world and 4 kings would come out of that kingdom. Alexander the Great takes the known world and at his death his 4 generals take over. Really good pick Daniel

In my opinion, enlightenment is (unfortunately) often the subsequent result of doubt. You have not considered the possibility of doubt in what you know, which makes your perception biased.

You and I share a similarity in the fact that we cling to faith, although my ray of hope is likely infinitesimal compared to yours.

One notion which differentiates us is I have considered the highly likely probability that the Council of Nicea purposefully excluded contradictory portions of the Bible.

Most of the modern bible you have today is based on manuscripts that are post 10th and 15th century. Although some manuscripts have been found that date as early as 1st and 2nd century, you would have to provide forensically valid evidence that the passage you are quoting is an approximately exact version contained in a letter written by Daniel prior to Alexander the Great (325BC).

The Dead Sea Scrolls were written after Alexander. It's easy to tell the future when it's the past.

tonyjeffers wrote:

Every time I try to select parts of a post and quote it just gets screwed up so I gave up for the time being. I guess our conversation will become one giant quote. lol  I've asked for help in numerous threads but there aren't many helpful people here.  I guess they just wanna laugh at the digital retard.

Hahaha this is what I do Tony. First I draft my post in a notepad document, and I include the quote snippets in there (like x pointed out) where I cut out pieces and separate chunks of posts if need be. I then hit reply and copy and paste this and then preview and proof read a few times, then post.

There is another added benefit of this. The current system sometimes times out on reply creation and on post (resulting in double posts etc) so constructing my response in this manner assures my time to reply and post is very quick and minimizes this risk.

Sapient will probably address this in future site version(s).


tonyjeffers wrote:

...
Do you not question the authenticity of any of it?
...

Hit the nail on the head!

digitalbeachbum wrote:

I find the myth of a "evil being" practical for those times. People wanted to know why others did bad things. Instead of taking responsibility for their actions they say "the devil made me do it" and when you have mentally sick people they say "they are possessed by the devil".

Indeed. When studying Greek mythology I often wondered if those gods were also created in the same manner.

Saying someone is a follower of aphrodite seems nicer than the vulgar alternative. Smiling


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13607
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Teralek wrote:I'm putting my

Teralek wrote:

I'm putting my ideas to the test. Get them bombarded heavily. Changing and evolving them in the process. Thus making them stronger.

My beliefs actually changed somewhat since I joined this forum. I have you to thank for it as well. This is one of the freest places on the internet to discuss ideas. I thank the moderators for that.

This should be interesting. What are we talking about as far a shift? It seems by this statement you have budged from a more solid position to being more "iffy". I would merely suggest if you are willing to give up on some of it, I would suggest you don't need any of it.

Evolution existed long before the first humans invented earthy gods like volcanos or animal gods, and time will change in the future as well as beliefs, the ones people hold now may die out or morph, new ones will be created, but in the end, none of our myths will survive our extinction because their wont be any future generation to sell them to.

If others god claims don't fit into the gap of what "caused" the universe, then it should not be a stretch that a magical cognition of any kind is needed to fill that gap.

But I am interested to know what your shift has been.

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Teralek
Theist
Teralek's picture
Posts: 614
Joined: 2010-07-15
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote:Teralek

Brian37 wrote:

Teralek wrote:

I'm putting my ideas to the test. Get them bombarded heavily. Changing and evolving them in the process. Thus making them stronger.

My beliefs actually changed somewhat since I joined this forum. I have you to thank for it as well. This is one of the freest places on the internet to discuss ideas. I thank the moderators for that.

This should be interesting. What are we talking about as far a shift? It seems by this statement you have budged from a more solid position to being more "iffy". I would merely suggest if you are willing to give up on some of it, I would suggest you don't need any of it.

Evolution existed long before the first humans invented earthy gods like volcanos or animal gods, and time will change in the future as well as beliefs, the ones people hold now may die out or morph, new ones will be created, but in the end, none of our myths will survive our extinction because their wont be any future generation to sell them to.

If others god claims don't fit into the gap of what "caused" the universe, then it should not be a stretch that a magical cognition of any kind is needed to fill that gap.

But I am interested to know what your shift has been. 
 

Turning back the page to my first posts in here. I am more sure of what to say regarding philosofical, political or transcendental beliefs. I'm more articulate.

For example. I use First Cause instead of God. I say preternatural instead of supernatural.

The God question became nonsense and a huge waste of time. So I'm not keen on discussing God anymore. I prefer to discuss cosmology, ethics, consciousness, AI, politics, etc. On some of these subjects we may disagree because I tend to see a intentional FC while you see either a blind FC or an infinite regress.

I am more clear in articulating my beliefs and I can go deeper into them.

______________________________________________________________
"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies


Jean Chauvin
Theistard
Jean Chauvin's picture
Posts: 1211
Joined: 2010-11-19
User is offlineOffline
Hey Opie

Hey Opie,

Since you are talking to theists and not Chrisitan theists, i'm crashing your party. But as a Christian theist I can tell you that it is logically impossible for me to change you, only the Holy Spirit can do this if He chooses.

What I am doing is bringing your "arguments" to their consistent conclusions. You don't argument all the way through to the end.

And I'm here to point out the inconsisties which is an ad hominem for our position.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).


danatemporary
danatemporary's picture
Posts: 1540
Joined: 2011-01-12
User is offlineOffline
UBB Tutorial

 

Tony's wrote:
Thank you much "x"    I was using [ 's    I knew it was something stupid.   To the rest of you who passed my question in other posts- how fucking hard was that you unhelpful pricks?

UBB Tutorial

 Simple UBB Code is critical & helpful. Lately I noticed tutorials arent around as much. I HAVE NO IDEA why you dont run across them more

No-one needs to be an ubber Geek to use these

Simple older UBB codes:

[size]URL Hyperlinking
There are four ways to include a link in your message:

    The simplest way to include a link is to simply type the URL. Called autolink mode, it works with URLs that begin with "http://", "https://" and "ftp://":

        http://www.rationalresponders.net

    It would appear like this in your message:

        http://www.rationalresponders.net

    If the URL begins with "http://www" then you don't even need the "http://" portion:

        www.rationalresponders.net

    It would appear like this in your message:

        www.rationalresponders.net

    You can instead give your link a name using the [url] code. For example, if you wanted the URL "http://www.rationalresponders.net" to display as or use the following format which places the desired name after the "=" sign inside the [url] code:

 http://www.rationalresponders.net
     or the too fancy way  of
[ URL =] Rationalresponders

    It would appear like this in your message:

        Rationalresponders

    If you do not include a name by using the "=" sign then the displayed link name will be the same as the URL, as done automatically when you quote[/size]

on the forum:

      

When clicked on, links created in the above ways will be opened in a new window. Note that you should NOT use quotation marks inside the URL tag.
Bold and Italics
You can make italicized text or make text bold by encasing the applicable sections of your text with either the or tags.
and or
Hello, James
Hello, Mary
Face, Color and Size
You can make the size of the text vary by using the "[ size]" tag
[ size=?][ /size]
You can make text in any font, color or size by using the [face], [ color] and [ size] tags.

    [face=monotype corsiva]ADD TEXT HERE[/face]

A region of indented text can be created using the [indent] UBB code.

[indent]This line will be indented [ /indent]

Adding Images
To add a graphic within your message, just encase the URL of the graphic image as shown in the following example (UBB codes are in red).

NOTE Remember to use the http:// when uploading an image to the  forum

In the example above, the UBB codes automatically makes the graphic visible in your message. Again the "http://" part of the URL is REQUIRED for the [img] code. Also note: some UBB forums may disable the [img] tag support to prevent objectionable images from being viewed.

[img][ /img]

ect.


 


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13607
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Jean Chauvin wrote:Hey

Jean Chauvin wrote:

Hey Opie,

Since you are talking to theists and not Chrisitan theists, i'm crashing your party. But as a Christian theist I can tell you that it is logically impossible for me to change you, only the Holy Spirit can do this if He chooses.

What I am doing is bringing your "arguments" to their consistent conclusions. You don't argument all the way through to the end.

And I'm here to point out the inconsisties which is an ad hominem for our position.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

No, you are simply making a fool of yourself. The fact you are to fucking dense to see it is your own damned fault.

Let me take the time to remind all the newbies here, when you read Jean's posts keep in mind he views his god claim as being ok to cause or allow the Japanese Tsunami that killed 13,000 people as a threat to America for not kissing his god's ass. And he also thinks that by saying our friend died recently is burning in hell, once again, he thinks by doing that, we are going to bow to his threats.

JUST keep that in mind everyone. He's merely a troll. We've had lots of believers here and he is not one I consider moral or decent in the least.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Jean Chauvin
Theistard
Jean Chauvin's picture
Posts: 1211
Joined: 2010-11-19
User is offlineOffline
Hey Brian

Hey Brian,

Emotional Reactions are not arguments.

When I was in highschool, i took a speech class on mormonism. After I was done, i did question and answers. I discussed with this girl in the front row how mormonism is a cult and believes that you can become a little god and that the mormon god the father had sex with the virgin mary to form baby jesus but she was still a virgin after the sex. After I explained the logical inconsisties she started to cry really intensely and she ran outside during class.

I had to explain to that girl like i'm explaining to you, crying and emotions do not create arguments.

God created everying including evil (he made you, and you are evil). But He is not the agent of that evil. quote me correctly and go get some tissue paper while you're at it.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

Eating Atheists For Breakfast Helps Children Grow Strong Bones.

 

A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).


buddyd
Theist
buddyd's picture
Posts: 48
Joined: 2012-03-26
User is offlineOffline
In response to ax (I

In response to ax (I couldn't figure out how to just quote the part directed at me).

 

There is no doubt I am bias but be aware I spent a very long time in doubt of the existence of God. I do not believe there is a such thing as a free mind. I call a car a car because that's what everyone else told me to call it. Meaning everyone has been influenced in their thinking to some point. As far as the council of Nicea, I think you are talking about the council of Hippo that decided what books are inspired by God. I absolutely think that they threw out books that contradicted any other Scripture. I use this as an apologetic (defense of Christianity) to say that there are no contradictions in the Bible. My reasoning being that even if there is no God this council wouldn't have adopted anything that contradicted any other part. As far as the book of Daniel is concerned you are correct we do not have a copy that predates Alexander but we have no proof that it was not written before this time. Many come from the assumption that there is no prophecy therefore it HAD to be written before Alexander.

 

But let me try this one, it's tough to explain in writing.

 

In Daniel 9:20-27 it says that there will be 70 sevens (seventy sets of seven years) there will be 69 sets from the time that a decree goes out to rebuild Jerusalem to the time that the Anointed one comes to die (Jesus). So there will be 69 sets of 7 years.

69X7=483

So there will be 483 years between the time that Jerusalem is rebuilt to the time of Christ

 

The decree to rebuild went out between 448-440 BC  (There is debate)

Jewish calendar is lunar 360 days in their calendar

360x483=173,880

so 173,880 days between rebuilding and Christ

173,880/365=476 (rounded)

so 476 solar years

from 448-440 BC add 476 years

28-36 AD

 

Daniel said over 600 years before it happened and in text that predate Christ that Jesus would die on the cross around 28-36 AD (one of many reasons why I believe)

 

 

 


buddyd
Theist
buddyd's picture
Posts: 48
Joined: 2012-03-26
User is offlineOffline
Oops, made a typo when I

Oops, made a typo when I said that not believing in prophecy comes to the conclusion that Daniel was written before Alexander, I really mean to say after Alexander. Sorry didn't proofread well enough


buddyd
Theist
buddyd's picture
Posts: 48
Joined: 2012-03-26
User is offlineOffline
Oops, made a typo when I

Oops, made a typo when I said that not believing in prophecy comes to the conclusion that Daniel was written before Alexander, I really mean to say after Alexander. Sorry didn't proofread well enough


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13607
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Jean Chauvin wrote:Hey

Jean Chauvin wrote:

Hey Brian,

Emotional Reactions are not arguments.

When I was in highschool, i took a speech class on mormonism. After I was done, i did question and answers. I discussed with this girl in the front row how mormonism is a cult and believes that you can become a little god and that the mormon god the father had sex with the virgin mary to form baby jesus but she was still a virgin after the sex. After I explained the logical inconsisties she started to cry really intensely and she ran outside during class.

I had to explain to that girl like i'm explaining to you, crying and emotions do not create arguments.

God created everying including evil (he made you, and you are evil). But He is not the agent of that evil. quote me correctly and go get some tissue paper while you're at it.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

Eating Atheists For Breakfast Helps Children Grow Strong Bones.

 

You're the fuckwad that wants to paint, like far to many Christians that we are merely animal robot killing machines with no emotions, so here are some fucking emotions. FUCK YOU! How's that?

You picked on the wrong guy asshole and I am NOT going to let any newbie here forget what you SAID about decent people and a decent country full of people with far more fucking ethics and morals than you will ever fucking have. There certainly are believers who don't threaten others with their god or bible. BUT you made the mistake of doing that.

Next time you decide to threaten others with your god think ASSHOLE before you speak or type. But do not expect me to forget the past or try to get others here to think your shit don't stink.

You made your bed, deal with it, or leave on your own, but YOU ARE NOT fooling anyone here, much less me. Keep making a fool of yourself if you wish.

 

 

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


buddyd
Theist
buddyd's picture
Posts: 48
Joined: 2012-03-26
User is offlineOffline
digitalbeachbum wrote:buddyd

digitalbeachbum wrote:

buddyd wrote:

I never put down our President (but I do disagree completely with his politics) at the church. I teach the Bible's version of morality and I let that influence lives which I assume will come through in their voting. But I would never say vote for this guy or do not vote for this guy. Love him or hate him I am voting for Mitt Romney in this election, while I do not believe he is a Christian. He is Mormon and does not believe that Jesus is eternal God. If there were a major moral controversy in politics I could see myself weighing in on the subject in during a church service if it were relevant to what I was preaching, but I believe I have a much bigger goal on a Sunday morning then American politics. As far as the Pope being so wealthy I don't despise someone because they have money but it is over the top at the Vatican.

Here are my thoughts on the following:

1 - What are the politics that our current president has "at the church"?

2 - What is the bible's morality?

3 - Why is jesus the eternal god?

4 - The pope is wealthy because the catholic church stole, sacked or conned their riches.

 

1. Currently there are not any issues that I speak in reference to President Obama in my church

What I was saying is if President Obama made an attempt to limit how or when we worship, then I would speak about it at my church.

2. Biblical morality 1. Love the Lord God with all your heart mind and soul 2. Love your neighbor as yourself

3.  I assume you are asking why do I say He is eternal instead of the belief that Mitt Romney has where He is created here are a couple (there are many)

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.

Revelation 22:12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

 

My point was that I wouldn't say vote for this guy or vote for that guy. I do not think Mitt is a follower of my God. But I am still voting for him. Point being Christianity is not my only reason for voting for someone. It is important to me but not the only factor.

 

4. Current Pope can not control the past. One could say that Americans are wealthy (compared to the rest of the world) because of what they stole from the British and the Indian. Catholic church has many problems but they are a major source of charity in the world. While you may not like Christians and they do have some terrible stains from the past, they are a major part of charity in the world. My church gives and feeds the poor unlike any other entity in the area (other than welfare which is forced and not charity). I meet people all the time that are not believers but when they are hungry or need help financially the first place they go is to the church. We have issues but you can't down everything we do.