Religion and the Constitution

VanLandingham
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Religion and the Constitution

 

Organized religion is granted nothing in our constitution. People have the right to believe and practice religion as they like. The rights belong to the people not the religious denominations. The Catholic Church is not a person, corporations are not persons. They have no rights that supersede the rights of the individual.

 


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VanLandingham

VanLandingham wrote:

Organized religion is granted nothing in our constitution. People have the right to believe and practice religion as they like. The rights belong to the people not the religious denominations. The Catholic Church is not a person, corporations are not persons. They have no rights that supersede the rights of the individual.

 

Well yes and no. Legally, a church or corporation is a type of person and has mostly the same constitutional rights. The basic underlying theory is that yes, individuals have protected rights- an organized religion or corporation is a group of individuals and those individuals do not lose their rights because they are a group. If an individual has a constitutional right to perform a specific action than a group of individuals assembled together also have a constitutional right to perform that action. Supreme Court case law going back to the early 1800's has supported the idea that most individual rights also apply to groups and has been very consistent on this issue. 

 

The only right I am aware of that is not guaranteed to corporations as it is to individuals is the protection from self-incrimination guaranteed in the 5th Amendment. Although individuals who may be incriminated in the corporation can plead the 5th. Whether or not a corporation can be forced to turn over incriminating documents in a trial has never been tested in front of the Supreme Court and probably never will because it simply isn't something that happens often.

It was morality that burned the books of the ancient sages, and morality that halted the free inquiry of the Golden Age and substituted for it the credulous imbecility of the Age of Faith. It was a fixed moral code and a fixed theology which robbed the human race of a thousand years by wasting them upon alchemy, heretic-burning, witchcraft and sacerdotalism.-H.L. Mencken


Brian37
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The Constitution's First

The Constitution's First Amendment is basically an anti monopoly law, through the concept of government neutrality of allowing all the same rights while also protecting dissent. It is a guiding principle not a dictatorial one. The rights of the majority DO NOT trump the rights of the few.

As far as churches, they are NOT people and it is bullshit to claim an entire organization constitutes a single human being. When you start talking like that then all it takes EVEN WITH CHURCHES, then all it takes is money and if money equals speech and an ENTIRE organization has money, then all it leads to is might makes right.

The founders LIVED in very tribal times where the CHURCHES had the big money to monopolize politics, money doesn't just equal power solely in private business. Jefferson's Virginia Religious Freedom act became the prototype for Madison's First Amendment.

MONEY is the only barter we have in government, religion, private sector and media. And as long as humans seek power in any of those, there always has to be an ability for those smaller within that society to AT A MINIMUM have the ability to have an advocate protect them from the bigger pool, or make an argument in court as to why the court should side with them. And as long as humans seek power there is always a possibility for a monopoly to arise, BE IT GOVERNMENT, RELIGION OR PRIVATE SECTOR.

The Constitution is there, not to side with any one group or person, but to assure that power cannot arise to the point it cannot change in the future. Treating ANY organization as a single human being is ABSURD. Freedom to organize is the "peaceably assemble" part of the First Amendment, but nowhere does that say by proxy of number you have the right to bully others.

 

 

 

 

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It's a bullshit law that

It's a bullshit law that churchs and corporations are considered people. They are not and they should not have the same rights as individual people.

If you reverse it and say that a single person can be a corporation then they should have all the same rights as a large corporation with 500,000 employees but they don't. Don't think so? Try getting insurance for a single person corporation.

It's all about money.

 

 

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Brian37 wrote:The

Brian37 wrote:

The Constitution's First Amendment is basically an anti monopoly law, through the concept of government neutrality of allowing all the same rights while also protecting dissent. It is a guiding principle not a dictatorial one. The rights of the majority DO NOT trump the rights of the few.

As far as churches, they are NOT people and it is bullshit to claim an entire organization constitutes a single human being. When you start talking like that then all it takes EVEN WITH CHURCHES, then all it takes is money and if money equals speech and an ENTIRE organization has money, then all it leads to is might makes right.

The founders LIVED in very tribal times where the CHURCHES had the big money to monopolize politics, money doesn't just equal power solely in private business. Jefferson's Virginia Religious Freedom act became the prototype for Madison's First Amendment.

MONEY is the only barter we have in government, religion, private sector and media. And as long as humans seek power in any of those, there always has to be an ability for those smaller within that society to AT A MINIMUM have the ability to have an advocate protect them from the bigger pool, or make an argument in court as to why the court should side with them. And as long as humans seek power there is always a possibility for a monopoly to arise, BE IT GOVERNMENT, RELIGION OR PRIVATE SECTOR.

The Constitution is there, not to side with any one group or person, but to assure that power cannot arise to the point it cannot change in the future. Treating ANY organization as a single human being is ABSURD. Freedom to organize is the "peaceably assemble" part of the First Amendment, but nowhere does that say by proxy of number you have the right to bully others.

 

So are you saying that churches do not have a constitutional right to exercise their religion?

 

 

Brian37 wrote:

Treating ANY organization as a single human being is ABSURD.

If you think so, but it is in the whole basis of our legal system since the founding of our country and the basis of common law well before that. If you were to read the United States Code you would find in title 1 chapter 1 (the very first page of laws) 

 

1 USC 1 wrote:

the words "person" and "whoever" include corporations,

      companies, associations, firms, partnerships, societies, and

      joint stock companies, as well as individuals;

 

 

It would be utterly absurd to deny rights to people simply because they assembled into a group. What worth would the right to assemble be if by virtue of being assembled you no longer had a freedom of speech? If you are unable to exercise your constitutional rights in a joint effort with other people, you effectively have no rights at all. That is why the first thing tyrannical governments do is prevent potential rebels from grouping together and communicating.

 

It was morality that burned the books of the ancient sages, and morality that halted the free inquiry of the Golden Age and substituted for it the credulous imbecility of the Age of Faith. It was a fixed moral code and a fixed theology which robbed the human race of a thousand years by wasting them upon alchemy, heretic-burning, witchcraft and sacerdotalism.-H.L. Mencken


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digitalbeachbum wrote:It's a

digitalbeachbum wrote:

It's a bullshit law that churchs and corporations are considered people. They are not and they should not have the same rights as individual people.

If you reverse it and say that a single person can be a corporation then they should have all the same rights as a large corporation with 500,000 employees but they don't. Don't think so? Try getting insurance for a single person corporation.

It's all about money.

 

?!?!? What legal right does a corporation have that an individual does not?

 

A single person can incorporate, it is extremely common, usually they are a S corporation or an LLC. Legally, a small corporation has all the same rights as a large corporation. The price you pay for health insurance is not a legal issue (yet) it is a contract with another company, and yeah you get discounts for buying in bulk. You also get discounts for buying bulk toilet paper. Neither the health insurance company nor the toilet paper company is required to sell you anything. And neither has anything to do with your legal or constitutional rights.

 

And actually, the larger a corporation the more legal obligations it has and more laws that it is required to follow. The new healthcare law for example is littered with laws that only apply to employers of more than 50 people. That doesn't change the fact that they enjoy the same constitutionally guaranteed freedoms you do.

It was morality that burned the books of the ancient sages, and morality that halted the free inquiry of the Golden Age and substituted for it the credulous imbecility of the Age of Faith. It was a fixed moral code and a fixed theology which robbed the human race of a thousand years by wasting them upon alchemy, heretic-burning, witchcraft and sacerdotalism.-H.L. Mencken


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Some fun from the new

Some fun from the new constitution of Hungary.

It states the ancient religion of Hungary is christianity, but christianity is against idol-worship.

But the "Csodaszarvas" is and idol, and there is no proof of the existence of the deer they mentioned.

 

The only proof of the deer is a miraclous metal shit that forms a deer, which is an idol.