Why Jesus is Lord
Offline Historical Textual Evidence for Jesus’ Existence
There are over 42 sources within 150 years after Jesus’ death which mention his existence and record many events of his life.
- 9 Traditional New Testament Authors
- Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Author of Hebrews, James, Peter, and Jude.
- Clement of Rome, 2 Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp, Martyrdom of Polycarp, Didache, Barnabas, Shepherd of Hermas, Fragments of Papias, Justin Martyr, Aristides, Athenagoras, Theophilus of Antioch, Quadratus, Aristo of Pella, Melito of Sardis, Diognetus, Gospel of Peter, Apocalypse of Peter, and Epistula Apostolorum.
- Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Truth, Apocryphon of John, and Treatise on Resurrection.
- Josephus (Jewish historian), Tacitus (Roman historian), Pliny the Younger (Roman politician), Phlegon (freed slave who wrote histories), Lucian (Greek satirist), Celsus (Roman philosopher), Mara Bar Serapion (prisoner awaiting execution), Suetonius, and Thallus.
Historical Textual Evidence for Tiberius Caesar’s Existence
Tiberius Caesar, the Roman emperor who reigned during Jesus’ ministry, has 10 authors who mention his existence within 150 years of his life. These include: Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, Seneca, Paterculus, Plutarch, Pliny the Elder, Strabo, Valerius Maximum, and Luke. If one removes Luke, since he is a New Testament source, there are 9 secular non-Christian sources. This means that there are just as many non-Christian sources for Jesus’ existence as there are for Tiberius Caesar’s! And, to compare, the total number of sources between Jesus and Tiberius Caesar are 42:10. Therefore, there are over four times as many sources for Jesus’ life and deeds than for Tiberius Caesar’s.
If one is going to doubt the existence of Jesus, one must also reject the existence of Tiberius Caesar.
Equally as intellectually impaired are those that claim Christianity is based on pagan mythology.
First of all, Christianity does not need any outside influence to derive any of its doctrines. All the doctrines of Christianity exists in the Old Testament where we can see the prophetic teachings of Jesus as the son of God (Zech. 12:10), born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14), was crucified (Psalm 22), the blood atonement (Lev. 17:11), rose from the dead (Psalm 16:10), and salvation by faith (Hab. 2:4). Also, the writers of the gospels were eyewitnesses (or directed by eyewitnesses as were Mark and Luke) who accurately represented the life of Christ. So, what they did was write what Jesus taught as well as record the events of His life, death, and resurrection. In other words, they recorded history, actual events and had no need of fabrication or borrowing.
There will undoubtedly be similarities in religious themes given the agrarian culture. Remember, an agriculturally based society, as was the people of the ancient Mediterranean area, will undoubtedly develop theological themes based upon observable events, i.e., the life, death, and seeming resurrection of life found in crops, in cattle, and in human life. It would only be natural for similar themes to unfold since they are observed in nature and since people created gods related to nature. But, any reading of the Old Testament results in observing the intrusion of God into Jewish history as is recorded in miracles and prophetic utterances. Add to that the incredible archaeological evidence verifying Old Testament cities and events and you have a document based on historical fact instead of mythical fabrication. Furthermore, it is from these Old Testament writings that the New Testament themes were developed.
Following is a chart demonstrating some of the New Testament themes found in the Old Testament.
| Theme | Old Testament Reference | New Testament fulfilled in Jesus |
| Ascension of Jesus to the right hand of God | Ps. 110:1 | Matt 26:64; Acts 7:55-60; Eph. 1:20 |
| Atonement by blood | Lev. 17:11 | Heb. 9:22 |
| Begotten Son, Jesus is | Psalm 2:7 | Acts 13:33; Heb. 1:5 |
| Crucifixion | Psalm 22:11-18; Zech. 12:10 | Luke 23:33-38 |
| Eternal Son | Micah 5:1-2; Psalm 2:7 | Heb. 1:5; 5:5 |
| God among His people | Isaiah 9:6; 40:3 | John 1:1,14; 20:28; Col. 2:9; Matt. 3:3 |
| Incarnation of God | 1)Ex 3:14; 2)Ps. 45:6 Isaiah 9:6; Zech. 12:10 | 1)John 8:58; 1:1,14; 2)Heb. 1:8; Col. 2:9; Heb. 1:1-3 |
| Only Begotten Son | Gen. 22:2. See Typology | John 3:16; Heb. 11:7 |
| Resurrection of Christ | Psalm 16:9-10; 49:15; Is. 26:19 | John 2:19-21 |
| Return of Christ | Zech. 14:1-5; Mic. 1:3-4 | Matt. 16:27-28; Acts 1:11; 3:20 |
| Sin offering | Ex. 30:10; Lev. 4:3 | Rom. 8:3; Heb. 10:18; 13:11 |
| Son of God | Psalm 2:7 | John 5:18 |
| Substitutionary Atonement | Isaiah 53:6-12; Lev. 6:4-10,21 | Matt. 20:28; 1 Pet. 2:24; 2 Cor. 5:21; 1 Pet. 3:18; |
| Virgin Birth | Isaiah 7:14 | Matt. 1:25 |
As you can see, there is no need for any of the Christian writers to borrow from anything other than the Old Testament source in order to establish any Christian doctrine concerning Jesus. If the argument that pagan mythologies predated Christian teachings and therefore Christianity borrowed from them is true, then it must also be truth that the pagan religions borrowed from the Jewish religion because it is older than they are! Given that all of the Christian themes are found in the Old Testament and the Old Testament was begun around 2000 B.C. and completed around 400 B.C., we can then conclude that these pagan religions actually borrowed from Jewish ideas found in the Old Testament. Think about it, the idea of a blood sacrifice and a covering for sin is found in the first three chapters of Genesis when God covered Adam and Eve with animals skins and prophesied the coming of the Messiah.
Furthermore, those who wrote about Jesus in the New Testament were Jews (or under the instruction of Jews) who were devoted to the legitimacy and inspiration of the Old Testament scriptures and possessed a strong disdain for pagan religions. It would have been blasphemous for them to incorporate pagan sources into what they saw as the fulfillment of the sacred Old Testament scriptures concerning the Messiah. Also, since they were writing about Jesus, they were writing based upon what He taught: truth, love, honesty, integrity, etc. Why then would they lie and make up stories and suffer great persecution, hardships, ridicule, arrest, beatings, and death all for known lies and fabrications from paganism? It doesn't make sense.
The alleged pagan parallels to Jesus’ resurrection are (1) unclear, (2) have late testimony that postdates Christianity, (3) may not be referring to an actual resurrection, (4) lack historical evidence, (5) misunderstand the Jewish influence on early Christianity, and (6) fail to explain the positive evidence for Jesus’ resurrection.
Unclear Parallels
The first problem is that the accounts of dying and rising gods in other religions are unclear. Justin Martyr, an early Christian apologist, records some of these "parallels" in an attempt to convince the Roman emperor that the Christian's teachings were not that dissimilar from other Roman religions which were favored by the empire. Justin appealed to various examples, including Aesculapius who was struck by lightning and ascended to heaven, Baccus and Hercules and a few other sons who rose to heaven on the horse Pegasus after having died violent deaths, Ariadne who was “set among the stars,” and finally the cremation of the emperor Augustus in which someone claimed that he saw Augustus’s spirit ascend towards heaven.3 However, Justin’s parallels are extremely unclear. As Habermas and Licona note, “If we were to consider these as parallels to Jesus’ resurrection, we would also have to consider every ghost story."
Late Testimony: After Christianity
Second, the first clear dying and rising god parallel to the resurrection story of Jesus occurs at least 100 years after the reports of Jesus’ resurrection. For example, the earliest versions of the death and resurrection of Adonis appeared after A.D. 150. The accounts of Attis, the Phyrgian god of vegetation who was responsible for the death and rebirth of plant life, are not until the 3rd century A.D. (200 A.D.) or later. Therefore, the Christians did not follow a genre of “dying and rising gods” since such parallels did not exist during their time period.
Questionable if Referring to a Resurrection
Third, it is questionable if the pre-Jesus pagan resurrection accounts are actually referring to a resurrection. In the accounts of Marduk there is no clear death or resurrection mentioned. Adonis, in the earliest visions, contains no death or resurrection reports. His first death and resurrection accounts do not occur until after A.D. 150. Osiris has conflicting accounts. Some accounts say that he is assigned to the underworld and others refer to him as the “sun.” However, there are no accounts or claims that Osiris rose from the dead.
The only account of a god who survived death that predates Christianity is found in Osiris. However, as mentioned above, there are several versions of his story. In one, he is killed by his brother, cut into fourteen pieces, and scattered in Egypt. The goddess Isis then collects his parts and bring him back to life, but she was only able to find thirteen parts. Furthermore, it is questionable whether Osiris was brought back to life on earth or seen by others like Jesus. Osiris descends and was given status of the underworld as god of the mummies. Interestingly, it is more of a zombification rather than a resurrection! Finally, the hero in the story is not Osiris, but Isis or Horus, their son. This is extremely different from Jesus who is the heroic risen prince of life who was seen by others on earth before his ascension into heaven (Acts 1:1-11).
Lack of Historical Evidence
Fourth, the accounts of dying and rising gods in other religions lack historical evidence, and can be accounted for by opposing theories such as legendary embellishment or lack of historicity. Interestingly, these dying and rising vegetation gods like Osiris and Adonis are not real people in history like Jesus (see: Did Jesus ever exist?). Furthermore, they are not attested by multiple sources, and the first available manuscript is far removed from the event that is described. For example, The Life of Apollonius by Philostratus, postdates Jesus by 200 years and is thought to be a “product of conscious reaction against Christianity.” Therefore, these pagan parallels are late and not around the time when eyewitnesses could be questioned.
Jewish not Pagan Ideas
Fifth, early Christianity was birthed in a Jewish cultural context. The early Christians, in fact, worshiped in the Jewish temple (i.e. Acts 2:46; 5:42) and believed that Christ's resurrection fulfilled Old Testament prophecy (1 Cor. 15:3-4). In light of this, these Jewish Christians believed in a physical resurrection which was a view that was not accepted by the Greco-Roman culture who ridiculed such an idea (Acts 17:31-32). Therefore, it is unlikely that these Jewish Christians would adopt pagan mythology.
Positive Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus
Sixth, and finally, the idea of the resurrection story being borrowed from pagan religions is unconvincing for several reasons since it does not explain the empty tomb, the early belief of the disciples in the resurrection of Jesus due to eyewitness testimony, the transformation of the disciples, the conversion of Paul, and the conversion of James.
First, the empty tomb of Jesus contains strong historical corroboration due to the unreasonableness of the disciples to preach an empty tomb in Jerusalem when the critics of Christianity could have just uncovered the tomb, the fact that early polemics between Christians and Jews presuppose the empty tomb, and finally, the fact that women who were not regarded highly by ancient society are the chief witnesses of the empty tomb! If the resurrection story of Jesus was borrowed from pagan mythology, then there would be no need for an empty tomb.
Second, we have extremely early testimony to the disciples’ belief that Jesus rose from the dead and appeared to them. A pre-Pauline creed in 1 Cor. 15:3-8 has been dated by critical scholars to the early 30’s A.D. This does not allow enough time for legend to embellish the core story of the text. In fact, the events upon which the creed is based points right back to the early 30's, possibly only a year or even months from the resurrection event itself. This would indicate that there really is no significant gap in time for legendary embellishments to explain the disciple’s core belief in the resurrection.
The early nature of the resurrection appearance accounts points to at least one, and possibly multiple, eyewitness accounts. At least Paul in A.D. 55 mentions his own eyewitness resurrection account (1 Cor. 15:8). In fact, the atheistic historian Michael Martin states that Paul is the only eyewitness that we have of the resurrection. It is also quite possible that the 1 Cor. 15:3-8 creed also contains eyewitness material from the twelve, all of the apostles, Peter, James, 500, etc.
Third, the disciples were radically transformed from despairing doubters to persevering proclaimers of the gospel. Is it really realistic to think that a pagan resurrection story is going to inspire pious Jews to adopt pagan ideology, change their worship from Saturday to Sunday, radically alter their views about their Messiah, change from despair about their dead Messiah, and then be willing to die for their faith and start proclaiming this “gospel” with conviction to hostile monotheistic audiences?
Fourth, Paul converted to Christianity as a result of what he claims is an eyewitness appearance of the risen Jesus (1 Cor. 15:8), endured much persecution (2 Cor. 11:23-28; Phil. 1:21-23; Acts 14:19; 16:19-24), and was willing to die for his faith. Is it really reasonable to believe that he became a Christian due to adopting pagan mythology and would be willing to die for this belief? As an educated Pharisee, he would have seen through the unhistorical claims of the pagan mythological parallels.
Fifth, James, the brother of Jesus, was also converted to Christianity as a result of an appearance of the risen Jesus (1 Cor. 15:7) and was willing to die for his faith (Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews 20:200; Hegesippus in Eusebius's Ecclesiastical History 2:23; and Clement of Alexandria in Eusebius's Ecclesiastical History 2:1, 23). Before this appearance, he was a skeptic and did not believe that his brother was the Messiah (Mk. 3:21; Jn. 7:5). Like Paul, it is extremely improbable, that as a pious Jew, these pagan parallels would have motivated him to believe in Jesus and be willing to die for his faith.
Think about this, only one of the original disciples died of old age. Judas committed suicide immediately after betraying Jesus. All the rest were martyred. Slowly, painfully killed. All they had to do to prevent this was simple, renounce Jesus. Just say they were lying. Or even say that maybe they were mistaken, and all of the miracles they saw were illusions or tricks. But they didn't. Tell me this, what would it take for you to give your life in a slow, agonizing, torturous manner?
"In this book, they list ten steps in the course of human evolution, each of which is so improbable that before it would have occurred the sun would have ceased to be a main sequence star and would have burned up the earth. They estimate the probability of the evolution of the human genome by chance to be on the order of 4∧(360)^110,000, a number which is so huge that to call it astronomical would be a wild understatement. In other words, if evolution did occur, it would have been a miracle, so that evolution is actually evidence for the existence of God”-William Lane Craig
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There are as many idiots writing things as there are fools to believe them. That is why physical evidence is all that matters. Got any?
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
Thank God, progress! Alright, so we agree that 3 of your 5 examples are failures. Now, the last 2. Lets go ahead and knock out the obvious, Eshmun. The myth of Eshmun was related by the 6th century AD Syrian philosopher Damascius and 9th century AD Patriarch of Constantinople Photius. Did you miss that? To fast for you? That's okay, I can do it again. Watch. 6th century AD and 9th century AD. Uh oh, it's the bottom of the 9th and your down to your last out. It's not looking good for the home team. O-S-I-R-U-S. So that's the best you got? You quote a man who says rejection of Osirius as a DARG "MAY be motivated by apologetic concerns"?
Then, you quote Sir James Frazer who states "In the resurrection of Osiris the Egyptians saw the pledge of a life everlasting for themselves beyond the grave." WHERE IS THE ASCENTION?????????? C'MON MAN!!!! Face it killer, YOU LOSE.
Now, you want to attack the NT again, BRING IT! I already provided this info earlier, but enjoy it again. You like Jacob Kremer, hungh? Try this on and see how it fits:
According to Jakob Kremer, an Austrian specialist on the resurrection, "By far most exegetes hold firmly to the reliability of the biblical statements concerning the empty tomb.
Jakob Kremer, Die Osterevangelien--Geschichten um Geschichte (Stuttgart: Katholisches Bibelwerk, 1977), pp. 49-50
Since Mark is the earliest gospel, his source must be even earlier. In fact, Rudolf Pesch, a German expert on Mark, says the Passion source must go back to at least AD 37, just seven years after Jesus’s death.
Rudolf Pesch, Das Markusevangelium, 2 vols., Herders Theologischer Kommentar zum Neuen Testament 2 (Freiburg: Herder, 1976-77), 2: 519-20.
According to Professor Sherwin-White, "For Acts the confirmation of historicity is overwhelming. Any attempt to reject its basic historicity even in matters of detail must now appear absurd."
Sherwin-White, Roman Society, p. 189.
Rudolf Bultmann, one of the most sceptical scholars this century has seen, wrote back in 1926:
Most of the miracle stories contained in the gospels are legendary or at least are dressed up with legends. But there can be no doubt that Jesus did such deeds, which were, in his and his contemporaries’ understanding, miracles, that is, deeds that were the result of supernatural, divine causality. Doubtless he healed the sick and cast out demons.
Rudolf Bultmann, Jesus (Berlin: Deutsche Bibliothek, 1926), p. 159.
The crucifixion of Jesus is recognized even by the Jesus Seminar as "one indisputable fact."
Robert Funk, Jesus Seminar videotape
"In this book, they list ten steps in the course of human evolution, each of which is so improbable that before it would have occurred the sun would have ceased to be a main sequence star and would have burned up the earth. They estimate the probability of the evolution of the human genome by chance to be on the order of 4∧(360)^110,000, a number which is so huge that to call it astronomical would be a wild understatement. In other words, if evolution did occur, it would have been a miracle, so that evolution is actually evidence for the existence of God”-William Lane Craig
Remember, this is only a partial list. There are hundreds of biblical cities that have been verified in archaeological digs.
What you got?
"In this book, they list ten steps in the course of human evolution, each of which is so improbable that before it would have occurred the sun would have ceased to be a main sequence star and would have burned up the earth. They estimate the probability of the evolution of the human genome by chance to be on the order of 4∧(360)^110,000, a number which is so huge that to call it astronomical would be a wild understatement. In other words, if evolution did occur, it would have been a miracle, so that evolution is actually evidence for the existence of God”-William Lane Craig
Am I the only one who finds this hilarious?
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUferf38nSs&list=FLKxhL93VV8JUI_WjSxq5kCA&index=1&feature=plpp_video
"In this book, they list ten steps in the course of human evolution, each of which is so improbable that before it would have occurred the sun would have ceased to be a main sequence star and would have burned up the earth. They estimate the probability of the evolution of the human genome by chance to be on the order of 4∧(360)^110,000, a number which is so huge that to call it astronomical would be a wild understatement. In other words, if evolution did occur, it would have been a miracle, so that evolution is actually evidence for the existence of God”-William Lane Craig
You need a calculator, dipshit? 9+20+4+9=42
"In this book, they list ten steps in the course of human evolution, each of which is so improbable that before it would have occurred the sun would have ceased to be a main sequence star and would have burned up the earth. They estimate the probability of the evolution of the human genome by chance to be on the order of 4∧(360)^110,000, a number which is so huge that to call it astronomical would be a wild understatement. In other words, if evolution did occur, it would have been a miracle, so that evolution is actually evidence for the existence of God”-William Lane Craig
Im sure everything jackspell has presented in this piece has already been examined and refuted a dozen times, and most of things that needed to be said has been said, but why should I not have any fun??? If I repeat something that has already been used my members of the RRS, my apologies.
I don't know if whatever I say will be shrugged off because there are people who think that everyone on the internet acts like an “expert” - so first let me break that presupposition. I am actually studying and majoring in history, and will have my history degree by the end of this Fall (as well as two other degrees). I've been through this with numerous professors and historians, and you would be surprised how most of them are doubters. I've asked and searched for any historical evidence for Jesus for five years, and no Christian has ever met the burden of proof. Lets see what our friend jack here has to say.
1. Your “9 Traditional New Testament Authors” are not contemporary eye-witness sources. Every gospel is anonymous, which the except of Paul (plus a few forgeries written under Paul's name). The gospel authors of Mark, Matthew, Luke, John do not claim to be eye-witnesses and the gospels are all written in third-person.
2. Again, none of these sources are contemporary. All they provide is records of their beliefs, not actually providing any historical evidence for Jesus, because none of them were alive during Jesus' time. Do you think Peter got it right when he said that Jesus grew a hundred or so feet tall and a piece of wood could speak!?
3. Once again, none of these gospels are contemporary.
4. Josephus is without a doubt a forgery, this has been known throughout all scholarly fields for hundreds of years. The rest of your examples are not contemporary sources, and every single one has been discredited (especially since most of them do not even name Jesus Christ). [http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/2889]
I find it very ironic a Christian bragging that the number of early manuscripts outnumber those of other historical figures, especially considering that right after when Christianity dominated, church leaders and religious kings put countless books of classical literature to the torch. In this case, with the fall of the Roman Empire by the barbarians, who pillaged hundreds of towns, would have surely destroyed the earliest records of Caesar. We have no reason to suspect that scribes altered writings from Homer or Caesar to support their particular religious dogma. But we have every reason to suspect it with the NT – in fact, we know they did.
I am not one of the mythicists who claims that Jesus of pagan origins, like that Zeitgeist crap. I admit there are some evident parallels to Greek literature like Homer, but all in all the gospel writers got their material from a source they were very familiar with: the Septuagint. Jesus seems to be completely fictionalized from the Old Testament. Every instance where you picked out Old Testament verses and labeled them “prophecies” for Jesus are not really prophecies – rather they are examples of the early Gospel writers nitpicking bits from the Septuagint to construct their fictional messiah.
Mark, the earliest gospel writer, was not an eye-witness (neither was Luke). In fact, there was indeed a lot of borrowing, a lot from the Old Testament, as well as from Homer's epic the Odyssey. Example, Odysseus is foretold by Calypso to undergo much suffering and then die and go to the Underworld, and yet Odysseus decides to endure it. He travels to Hades and back. Mark, on the other hand, improves on this story and has Jesus predict himself of the upcoming suffering and visit the land of the dead and return again in the Gethsemede scene. Other examples include Odysseus and his female house servant and the travels on the Argo - which Mark took and improved on.
For the record, Matt Slick is not a historian, and in a lot of cases not a real honest man.
Archaeological evidence? Not quite. Prior to the 1970s one can be forgiven for thinking that archeology is the handmaid of the bible—for one archeological dig after another seemed to confirm it. But this is no longer true. Scholars are questioning the whole paradigm of “biblical archaeology,” which starts with the assumption that the Bible is a reliable guide for field research. Indeed, there is now so much contrary evidence against the historical accuracy of the Bible that the term “biblical archaeology” has been discarded by professional archaeologists and Syro-Palestinian archaeology has been suggested by some practicing in the field as a more appropriate term.
Among historians, there is little debate that there was never an Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and such. But we are not taking about what happen historically in the Old Testament, we are talking about Jesus. You are right jack that “from these Old Testament writings that the New Testament themes were developed” which I will get into in just a bit.
Actually, this seems to really prove my point: every “prophecy” you presented is actually examples of the gospel writers nitpicking verses from the Old Testament to help construct their fictional messiah. A lot of them are based on bad interpretations of the Septuagint; for instance, they got the virgin birth wrong and that the messiah had to suffer and has his hands pierced. [http://rationalrevolution.net/articles/jesus_myth_history.htm#3]
No, not all the Gospel writers were Jews. Mark for example was not all that familiar with the Jewish customs, like the washing of hands - for that matter, Mark was not even a local (he thought a lake was a sea and was mistaken about several locations).
Wrong, not all pagan resurrection stories postdate Christianity.
Also, like the pagan resurrection stories, Jesus' resurrection is also lacking in historical evidence, with no positive evidence to support it. I am sure you will bring this up later in more detail, so moving on...
Last section, you stated that there were no resurrection accounts before Christianity. Here you just contradicted yourself, and cited Justin Martyr explaining several examples of resurrection stories to prove yourself wrong. You claim there are no parallels between the pagan stories of gods who died and went to heaven and Jesus, but you did just admit that early resurrection stories did exist in some fashion. Their entire stories may not match bit by bit, but the idea of a god dying and then ascending to heaven did not start with Christianity.
What you did not include was more of what Justin martyr said. in response to the pagan critics who pointed out all the similarities, Justin replied that the only explanation was that the devil knew of the coming of christ, so he created all the pagan gods with similar stories to that of the coming christ - just to fool everybody and reject Jesus when he came to earth.
No “dying and rising gods” until after Christ? You seem to be contradicting yourself again. Earlier you gave a couple of examples of pre-Christian gods and demigods who died and ascended to heaven, now your claiming that there never were pre-Christian tales of dying gods and demigods ascending to heaven?
What about Prometheus, who sacrificed himself for mankind? Or Dionysus who sacrificed himself and ascended to Olympus to become a god? Or Krishna, the man who claimed to be god manifested? All that aside, doesn't really matter. What does matter is this: where is the historical evidence specifically for Jesus?
throughout this whole forum and debate, I don't care about parallels to pagan resurrections stories, to me that is minor stuff. If you wish to make a case for your jesus, then make a case for your Jesus and back it up.
The Jesus story also has numerous examples of legendary embellishments and especially lack of historicity. Look at this image [http://imageshack.us/f/682/jesuslegend.jpg/] and see how the number of extraordinary events just keep getting more numerous and more extraordinary as more gospels are written. (Example, Mark does not give a ascension story, but the later ones pile up on it.) This is the exact definition of a legendary embellishment.
I agree that early Christianity was origins in Judaism, but not entirely. The spread of Hellenistic idea spread throughout the Roman empire, even to Palestine. These ideas were adopted by early Jews, which helped form their new faith.
Do you have any contemporary documents outside the Bible that the Roman's ridiculed such an idea? What you have just provided is an example of bias. You think it is unlikely that these Jews would accept pagan mythology???? Tell me, do you celebrate Christmas with a Christmas tree? Do you, or did you ever, celebrate your birthday with a cake and candles? Do you praise Jesus on Sundays?
Here we go.
First of all, locate and identify the empty tomb. Do that first. Then tell me why it was literally unknown and missing for 300 years?
http://youtu.be/TiCpKXFd8Pw
http://youtu.be/Zo_iZ4YJ4Mc
Why couldn’t people just go to the tomb and prove there was a body? How about the likelihood there was no tomb to begin with to go looking for? It would be like asking to recover the body of King Arthur.
Women were indeed regarded highly. Richard Carrier thoroughly refuted this claim that "woman's testimony was not reliable" in his book Not the Impossible Faith pg 297-321.
1 Corinthians was probably written some time between 50 and 60 CE. None of the three synoptic Gospels makes an explicit reference to Christ as the Passover lamb, but the Gospel called John does. Mark and John credit the first witness to Mary Magdalene (yet the creed has no women witnesses); Luke credits "Cleopas and another" on the road to Emmaus (an accreditation omitted from the creed); and Matthew cites the "two Marys". The gospel writers say nothing of any appearance to James, to the "500" or to Paul, and they refer at this point to eleven not twelve disciples (Judas being dead and Matthias not yet elected).
Addressing the supposed 500 people - this is completely bogus. Paul gives us no reference who they were, where they were, where they went, how many of them were adults, who they were (not a single name given), were they sober, what exactly did they see and how does he know they saw it, what did they tell others, etc etc etc. This is not a good example of journalism. Rather, all the historical evidence indicates that these 500 people is just merely a number written on paper: self-promoting propaganda. Similar to how when the Nazis became popular, they started off small and they numbered their members. They lied and added 500 fake people to their number list to make their group look better. Example, if you were member #547, in reality you were member #47.
The only evidence we have of the apostles changing their views is from the anonymous gospel writers who never met any of the apostles.
Actually, Paul claims to have seen a light on the road to Damascus, and attributing it to Jesus. He never met an earthly bone-and-flesh Jesus (in fact, no one did).
While this cannot be conclusively proven, it does seem very plausible: The apostle Paul was raised as a religious Jew in the Pharisean sect devoted to purity of faith. Up until the time of his religious conversion, he had a notorious reputation for the thoroughness with which he hunted down and persecuted Christians. During this period he was called “Saul.” This was completely changed by a dramatic incident on the road to Damascus in about 34 A.D.:
“As he neared Damascus in the course of his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed round him; he dropped to the ground and heard a voice saying to him “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me. Get up and go into the city; there you will be told what you are to do…”
“Saul got up from the ground, but though his eyes were open he could see nothing, so they took his hand and led him to Damascus. For three days he remained sightless, and neither ate nor drank.” Acts 9:3-6, 8, 9
After three days he was visited by Ananias, a Damascus Christian, who laid is hands on him and welcomed him:
“In a moment something like scales fell off his eyes, he re-gained his sight, got up and was baptized. Then he took some food and felt strong again.” Acts 9:18, 19
Some evidence that St. Paul had multiple seizure-like episodes comes from his letter to the church in Corinth 22 years earlier where he described multiple visions and called his illness a “thorn in the flesh” and from Satan.
“My wealth of vision might have puffed me up, so I was given a thorn in the flesh, an angel of Satan to rack me and keep me from being puffed up; three times over I prayed to the Lord to relieve me of it, but he told me, “It is enough for you to have my grace; it is a weakness that my power is fully gel.”
2 Corinthians 12:1-9
Interpretation of parts of the epistles of Paul suggest his facial motor and sensory disturbances were coming after ecstatic seizures and that his religious conversion recurred as a result of ecstatic visions associated with Temperol Lobe Epilepsy.
Would such a man be willing to die for something he made up? Very likely, especially if he did have some weird experience. People who believe they have encountered aliens and are willing to defend it to the death that they saw what they saw, even though studies have shown that it is all in their head.
The James in Josephus is not the James in the Bible.
James as a Forgery
Who Was James?
Which James?
Naming the Jameses
Any sources for how you know that the apostles died? Did Judas hang himself or did God blow up his intestines? Were do you have any historical evidence that the disciples were martyred?
Okay, my thoughts on this post: first there was nothing new presented, and none of it had any historical support. Jackspell has swung and missed.
What does this show?
We have verified that many of the islands, towns, and kings existed in Homer's Illiad and Odyssey, does not mean that cyclops and magical figures historically existed.
Another example, lets say that a thousand years from know, archaeologists discover the ruined city of New York City, that does not mean Spiderman existed.
Focus on presenting historical data specifically for Jesus.
Face it the idea of a human/half human half god/deity dying and being resurrected and then becoming a god IS NOT UNIQUE TO JESUS you lose and you are so lost in denial that you can't even face the fact that you lost this argument from the beginning by simply denying the Osiris and the Eshmun mythlogy. It is not I that lost it is you who denies that facts that has lost. As well it is the symbolism of the life everlasting much like the christian religion does the same thing with jesus. However of course you don't see any parallels with this at all, because you rather put on the blinders and ignore it. The temples of Eshmun go as far back as the 7th century BC, Sidon is built where Eshmun castrated himself and threw away his genitals.
Egyptian scholars and writers from ancient history have told the story of Osiris resurrection and becoming a deity a god this is a fact. It may not be exactly the same as jesus as I already say, but the concept is the same
Who cares, what they state, here is the reality I can come up with a far far better explanation that requires no supernatural event. His followers moved his body out of the tomb, that has far better explanation than resurrection, or another possibility that the story is told to be greater than that of the John the baptist who supposedly was resurrected. HOWEVER that doesn't meet up with what we know of history of the romans and the jews. Historically speaking someone who was crucified, and we are taking the time frame that jesus supposedly lived and was crucified, the body was not buried and was not given back to the family, they were food for the crows, a final humiliation for the criminal. Second if the jews had a say, which jesus was to be killed for blasphemy, again, no proper burial, and especially no tomb as again he was a blasphemer. So who would want to change those facts....well the disciples who were trying to spread his teachings. There were no exceptions for treason, and treason against Rome is what he was killed for, next part his he would have hanged there for more than three days, again until the crows started to eat him. This goes all against historical facts, yet here we have them burying him in a tomb, which would have been completely out of the norm for the 2 parties involved. Now we have to find a reason to change the facts, and the disciples have their own agenda to change the facts. Considering the Pilate would have considered jesus and enemy of Rome why would he even allow burial which could have then become a martyr and establishing a shrine to jesus. Romans did not just crucify anyone, there were honorable executions, but slaves, enemies of the state and pirates were crucified and it was considered a shameful and disgraceful death. So if the case is for a shameful and disgraceful death why would he give jesus the honor of burial? It makes ZERO historical sense.
I don't deny the real possibility that if jesus did exist that he could of been crucified, as this would have been the execution style of the romans at the time, it's the supernatural part, the resurrection and ascension part I deny, it's not a unique story.
I will repeat what I stated before we both can bring in scholars to this game, in the end, I have proven my point that you are a liar, not all biblical scholars agree and that you deny the facts and move the goal post each time.
Still 0 (repeat, ZERO) contemporary sources within 50 years of the supposed death of the mythological jesus. Relegating all other sources to hearsay status, and inapplicable to any discussion on the actual existence of jesus.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
75% of Christ believing historians agree with their religion? Wow, that's surprising.
Those three things you claim as facts are supernatural, numbnuts. You need the supernatural to claim that those "facts" you and that sample of Christian historians you cite are facts. The fact that they get paid to provide a Christian view of history has nothing to do with their ability to report facts. The fact that I don't need the supernatural for my explanation while you have to lie to yourself by saying you don't need it. is more than adequate.
You need to look at more than just your side. Otherwise you're on the same level as Lee Strobel.
On Alexander - we have things written by him as well as things written about him. Jesus didn't write and the people who did write about him never met him (they wrote decades later).
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
No we don't need a calculator. 1+1=2.
But here is what you are doing, 1+wishfulthinking=Pink unicorns.
We know the Egyptian Pharaohs existed. We can prove they made claims about Isis and Horus and the sun itself being a god. But after 3,000 years of claiming and believing that bullshit did not make it true.
THE REALITY OF THE NT was that it was written by HUMANS without magical powers, and without a real super hero who merely wanted to start a new club. Whatever real places or real people they inserted into the book will never make magic real.
The cat is out of the bag. IT TAKES TWO sets of DNA to make a baby, thus magic baby claims are bullshit claims. Human flesh does not survive rigor mortis, thus making the death story bullshit.
ANY real person that had a hand in writing that book was merely creating a new cult and merely successfully marketed that new cult.
You can go to the movies and see Superman fly around a real city IN THE MOVIE, but you damned well know that Superman is not real and humans don't fly like that. The earth was not created in 6 days. Humans did not pop out of dirt or get yanked out of ribs. Bushes and snakes don't talk.
The fantastic claims of ALL holy books, are not products of any other reality than that of the reality that human beings have always made up gods and falsely believed them to be fact.
WE did not write that book. WE did not sell that bullshit. It is not our fault it was invented by human imagination nor is it our fault you fell for that bullshit. We are merely the ones saying the moon is not made of cheese.
You are not even using a calculator or even an abacus, you are merely using mental crowns and a coloring book and stupidly call it logic.
The reality of why you believe is merely a FLAW in our human evolution. The reality is it is your ego and desire to want a super hero to protect you. WE are the ones trying to help you escape your delusion.
It really should NOT be a stretch for you to think about WHY you reject the claims of Allah or Vishnu or Isis and then aim that rightful logic in rejecting those claims at your own pet deity. The same reason you know there is no Superman who can fly and stop bullets with his chest, is the same reason we know that the magic baby story and death story of the Jesus character, never happened.
You can build an elaborate domino display. You can build a useless toy with complex parts that does nothing but looks neat and merely entertains you. THAT is merely what you have mentally and unfortunately needlessly inflicted yourself with.
We are here to help you out of that mental trap.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Alright, this is the plan. Being my job at a top Fortune 500 company consumes a lot of my time, as well as my beautiful wife and children do also, I am unable to constantly answer moronic, repetitive arguments from many of you. So, pick your best warrior. Decide which among you is capable of putting up a decent argument against me. Then, set up a one-on-one debate. Then the rest of you can watch this poor sap get slaughtered from the peanut gallery. I await the opponent.
"In this book, they list ten steps in the course of human evolution, each of which is so improbable that before it would have occurred the sun would have ceased to be a main sequence star and would have burned up the earth. They estimate the probability of the evolution of the human genome by chance to be on the order of 4∧(360)^110,000, a number which is so huge that to call it astronomical would be a wild understatement. In other words, if evolution did occur, it would have been a miracle, so that evolution is actually evidence for the existence of God”-William Lane Craig
*Vastet wins*
*Flawless victory*
*Fatality*
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Translation: "Since I cant make an argument for my pretend invisible friend I'll; feign superiority by childishly attempting to treat "them" like peasants by talking about my personal life which is completely irrelevant"
YOU WORSHIP AN INVISIBLE FRIEND, if you want to worship Casper and pretend he is real we cant stop you, but he not real.
What is this fortune 500 company you work for, Toys R Us, or did you merely mean you buy your logic there?
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Chick-fil-a
Chevron. So who's gonna step up?
You win because I challenge you to a one-on-one debate? Dude, I know you only work about 20 hours a week at Gamestop. You have plenty of time to accept my challenge. So let's dance. I challenge you to a one-on-one for this thread, and also my evolution thread as well. Simultaneously, 2 ONE-ON-ONES. Set it up.
"In this book, they list ten steps in the course of human evolution, each of which is so improbable that before it would have occurred the sun would have ceased to be a main sequence star and would have burned up the earth. They estimate the probability of the evolution of the human genome by chance to be on the order of 4∧(360)^110,000, a number which is so huge that to call it astronomical would be a wild understatement. In other words, if evolution did occur, it would have been a miracle, so that evolution is actually evidence for the existence of God”-William Lane Craig
There are Fortune 500 companies that give good jobs to high school students?
You haven't put up an argument that hasn't been taken apart so I'm not sure where you get that you would slaughter anyone.
Indeed, you can't get past self-contradiction and plagiarism (unless you are the Ryan Turner who wrote at http://carm.org/jesus-exist). If you are that author then you just can't get past the self- contradiction you've brought here.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
No, I win because in more than a week of posturing and lies, you not only have STILL failed to address my points (in more than one topic no less), you've now declined any further debates unless we choose someone to further destroy you. As if you had anything left to argue.
I don't see any point in rehashing every argument just to prove you wrong a second time, and get ignored again after doing so.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
How about this...we stick to this forum and continue the debate.
We all have our own lives to take care of, we all understand this, there is no rush or deadlines to make a response.
I do not know who else here besides me who specializes in history, but nominating a single person to represent us all is not a smart idea. Peer review is never a one-on-one case. You were already willing to face off dozens of members on your evolution thread, but you can't handle at least four guys on the subject of history????
Here is the case, nothing in your opening post has any historical validity to it, and you demand skeptics like myself to explain how we can account for the empty tomb -- but you have not even established any facts about the existence of the empty tomb before the 4th century.
You totally missed my sarcasm. WE DONT care who you work for or how busy you are. "I work for a fortune 500 company" has nothing to do with ANY god existing, much less yours.
I don't care if you were Donald Trump, or the Pope or a Rabbi. You have no evidence for your pet god. You have merely been posting elaborate myth which is nothing but posting a history of claims people merely want to be true, both the people who bought it, the people who buy it today, AND the people who wrote it.
There is absolutely NO evidence of a non material magical super brain with a magic wand.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Congratulations, Mr Morally Inconsistent. Lucky this little girl isn't one of yours...
http://matadornetwork.com/change/60-minutes-exposes-chevrons-environmental-atrocity-in-the-amazon/
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Step up to what? who cares for what company you work for, I run my own company thank you very much and I work 80 plus hours a week and still have time to contribute to these forums.....I don't see what working for Chevron is in any way or form meaningful to this topic.
Here lets see, my company which I run, does security work and consulting for various fortune 500 companies and various other recognizable companies in Canada and the US and I design their security systems, access control and CCTV systems.....so what does this really contribute to this topic again? The fact remains is that you have not stated any actual evidence for the existence of your god, the problems with the claims in the bible and more specifically the historical problems I have pointed out to you in regards to the crucifixion of jesus and the tomb.
Nah, I've had enough of light work and you can't give me anything else.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
"If Jesus had weighed 300lbs or more would people now be saying, 'Jesus is Lard?' "
TV news anchor Jon Nicholson
"Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings."