Why Jesus is Lord

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Why Jesus is Lord

Historical Textual Evidence for Jesus’ Existence

There are over 42 sources within 150 years after Jesus’ death which mention his existence and record many events of his life.

  1. 9 Traditional New Testament Authors
    1. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Author of Hebrews, James, Peter, and Jude.
  2. 20 Early Christian Writers Outside the New Testament
    1. Clement of Rome, 2 Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp, Martyrdom of Polycarp, Didache, Barnabas, Shepherd of Hermas, Fragments of Papias, Justin Martyr, Aristides, Athenagoras, Theophilus of Antioch, Quadratus, Aristo of Pella, Melito of Sardis, Diognetus, Gospel of Peter, Apocalypse of Peter, and Epistula Apostolorum.
  3. 4 Heretical Writings
    1. Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Truth, Apocryphon of John, and Treatise on Resurrection.
  4. 9 Secular Sources
    1. Josephus (Jewish historian), Tacitus (Roman historian), Pliny the Younger (Roman politician), Phlegon (freed slave who wrote histories), Lucian (Greek satirist), Celsus (Roman philosopher), Mara Bar Serapion (prisoner awaiting execution), Suetonius, and Thallus.

Historical Textual Evidence for Tiberius Caesar’s Existence

Tiberius Caesar, the Roman emperor who reigned during Jesus’ ministry, has 10 authors who mention his existence within 150 years of his life.  These include: Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, Seneca, Paterculus, Plutarch, Pliny the Elder, Strabo, Valerius Maximum, and Luke.  If one removes Luke, since he is a New Testament source, there are 9 secular non-Christian sources.  This means that there are just as many non-Christian sources for Jesus’ existence as there are for Tiberius Caesar’s!  And, to compare, the total number of sources between Jesus and Tiberius Caesar are 42:10. Therefore, there are over four times as many sources for Jesus’ life and deeds than for Tiberius Caesar’s.

If one is going to doubt the existence of Jesus, one must also reject the existence of Tiberius Caesar.

Equally as intellectually impaired are those that claim Christianity is based on pagan mythology. 

First of all, Christianity does not need any outside influence to derive any of its doctrines.  All the doctrines of Christianity exists in the Old Testament where we can see the prophetic teachings of Jesus as the son of God (Zech. 12:10), born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14), was crucified (Psalm 22), the blood atonement (Lev. 17:11), rose from the dead (Psalm 16:10), and salvation by faith (Hab. 2:4).  Also, the writers of the gospels were eyewitnesses (or directed by eyewitnesses as were Mark and Luke) who accurately represented the life of Christ.  So, what they did was write what Jesus taught as well as record the events of His life, death, and resurrection.  In other words, they recorded history, actual events and had no need of fabrication or borrowing.

There will undoubtedly be similarities in religious themes given the agrarian culture.  Remember, an agriculturally based society, as was the people of the ancient Mediterranean area, will undoubtedly develop theological themes based upon observable events, i.e., the life, death, and seeming resurrection of life found in crops, in cattle, and in human life.  It would only be natural for similar themes to unfold since they are observed in nature and since people created gods related to nature.  But, any reading of the Old Testament results in observing the intrusion of God into Jewish history as is recorded in miracles and prophetic utterances.  Add to that the incredible archaeological evidence verifying Old Testament cities and events and you have a document based on historical fact instead of mythical fabrication.  Furthermore, it is from these Old Testament writings that the New Testament themes were developed.

Following is a chart demonstrating some of the New Testament themes found in the Old Testament.

Theme Old Testament
Reference
New Testament
fulfilled in Jesus
Ascension of Jesus to the right hand of God Ps. 110:1 Matt 26:64; Acts 7:55-60; Eph. 1:20
Atonement by blood Lev. 17:11 Heb. 9:22
Begotten Son, Jesus is Psalm 2:7 Acts 13:33; Heb. 1:5
Crucifixion Psalm 22:11-18; Zech. 12:10 Luke 23:33-38
Eternal Son Micah 5:1-2; Psalm 2:7 Heb. 1:5; 5:5
God among His people Isaiah 9:6; 40:3 John 1:1,14; 20:28; Col. 2:9; Matt. 3:3
Incarnation of God 1)Ex 3:14; 2)Ps. 45:6 Isaiah 9:6; Zech. 12:10 1)John 8:58; 1:1,14; 2)Heb. 1:8; Col. 2:9; Heb. 1:1-3
Only Begotten Son Gen. 22:2.  See Typology John 3:16; Heb. 11:7
Resurrection of Christ Psalm 16:9-10; 49:15; Is. 26:19 John 2:19-21
Return of Christ Zech. 14:1-5; Mic. 1:3-4 Matt. 16:27-28; Acts 1:11; 3:20
Sin offering Ex. 30:10; Lev. 4:3 Rom. 8:3; Heb. 10:18; 13:11
Son of God Psalm 2:7 John 5:18
Substitutionary Atonement Isaiah 53:6-12; Lev. 6:4-10,21 Matt. 20:28; 1 Pet. 2:24; 2 Cor. 5:21; 1 Pet. 3:18;
Virgin Birth Isaiah 7:14 Matt. 1:25

As you can see, there is no need for any of the Christian writers to borrow from anything other than the Old Testament source in order to establish any Christian doctrine concerning Jesus.  If the argument that pagan mythologies predated Christian teachings and therefore Christianity borrowed from them is true, then it must also be truth that the pagan religions borrowed from the Jewish religion because it is older than they are!  Given that all of the Christian themes are found in the Old Testament and the Old Testament was begun around 2000 B.C. and completed around 400 B.C., we can then conclude that these pagan religions actually borrowed from Jewish ideas found in the Old Testament.  Think about it, the idea of a blood sacrifice and a covering for sin is found in the first three chapters of Genesis when God covered Adam and Eve with animals skins and prophesied the coming of the Messiah.

Furthermore, those who wrote about Jesus in the New Testament were Jews (or under the instruction of Jews) who were devoted to the legitimacy and inspiration of the Old Testament scriptures and possessed a strong disdain for pagan religions.  It would have been blasphemous for them to incorporate pagan sources into what they saw as the fulfillment of the sacred Old Testament scriptures concerning the Messiah.  Also, since they were writing about Jesus, they were writing based upon what He taught:  truth, love, honesty, integrity, etc.  Why then would they lie and make up stories and suffer great persecution, hardships, ridicule, arrest, beatings, and death all for known lies and fabrications from paganism?  It doesn't make sense.

 

The alleged pagan parallels to Jesus’ resurrection are (1) unclear, (2) have late testimony that postdates Christianity, (3) may not be referring to an actual resurrection, (4) lack historical evidence, (5) misunderstand the Jewish influence on early Christianity, and (6) fail to explain the positive evidence for Jesus’ resurrection.

Unclear Parallels

The first problem is that the accounts of dying and rising gods in other religions are unclear.  Justin Martyr, an early Christian apologist, records some of these "parallels" in an attempt to convince the Roman emperor that the Christian's teachings were not that dissimilar from other Roman religions which were favored by the empire.  Justin appealed to various examples, including Aesculapius who was struck by lightning and ascended to heaven, Baccus and Hercules and a few other sons who rose to heaven on the horse Pegasus after having died violent deaths, Ariadne who was “set among the stars,” and finally the cremation of the emperor Augustus in which someone claimed that he saw Augustus’s spirit ascend towards heaven.3  However, Justin’s parallels are extremely unclear.  As Habermas and Licona note, “If we were to consider these as parallels to Jesus’ resurrection, we would also have to consider every ghost story."

Late Testimony: After Christianity

Second, the first clear dying and rising god parallel to the resurrection story of Jesus occurs at least 100 years after the reports of Jesus’ resurrection.  For example, the earliest versions of the death and resurrection of Adonis appeared after A.D. 150.  The accounts of Attis, the Phyrgian god of vegetation who was responsible for the death and rebirth of plant life, are not until the 3rd century A.D. (200 A.D.) or later.  Therefore, the Christians did not follow a genre of “dying and rising gods” since such parallels did not exist during their time period.

Questionable if Referring to a Resurrection

Third, it is questionable if the pre-Jesus pagan resurrection accounts are actually referring to a resurrection.  In the accounts of Marduk there is no clear death or resurrection mentioned.  Adonis, in the earliest visions, contains no death or resurrection reports.  His first death and resurrection accounts do not occur until after A.D. 150.  Osiris has conflicting accounts.  Some accounts say that he is assigned to the underworld and others refer to him as the “sun.”  However, there are no accounts or claims that Osiris rose from the dead.

The only account of a god who survived death that predates Christianity is found in Osiris.  However, as mentioned above, there are several versions of his story.  In one, he is killed by his brother, cut into fourteen pieces, and scattered in Egypt.  The goddess Isis then collects his parts and bring him back to life, but she was only able to find thirteen parts.  Furthermore, it is questionable whether Osiris was brought back to life on earth or seen by others like Jesus.  Osiris descends and was given status of the underworld as god of the mummies.  Interestingly, it is more of a zombification rather than a resurrection! Finally, the hero in the story is not Osiris, but Isis or Horus, their son.  This is extremely different from Jesus who is the heroic risen prince of life who was seen by others on earth before his ascension into heaven (Acts 1:1-11).

Lack of Historical Evidence

Fourth, the accounts of dying and rising gods in other religions lack historical evidence, and can be accounted for by opposing theories such as legendary embellishment or lack of historicity.  Interestingly, these dying and rising vegetation gods like Osiris and Adonis are not real people in history like Jesus (see: Did Jesus ever exist?).  Furthermore, they are not attested by multiple sources, and the first available manuscript is far removed from the event that is described.  For example, The Life of Apollonius by Philostratus, postdates Jesus by 200 years and is thought to be a “product of conscious reaction against Christianity.”  Therefore, these pagan parallels are late and not around the time when eyewitnesses could be questioned.

Jewish not Pagan Ideas

Fifth, early Christianity was birthed in a Jewish cultural context.  The early Christians, in fact, worshiped in the Jewish temple (i.e. Acts 2:46; 5:42) and believed that Christ's resurrection fulfilled Old Testament prophecy (1 Cor. 15:3-4).  In light of this, these Jewish Christians believed in a physical resurrection which was a view that was not accepted by the Greco-Roman culture who ridiculed such an idea (Acts 17:31-32).  Therefore, it is unlikely that these Jewish Christians would adopt pagan mythology.

Positive Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus

Sixth, and finally, the idea of the resurrection story being borrowed from pagan religions is unconvincing for several reasons since it does not explain the empty tomb, the early belief of the disciples in the resurrection of Jesus due to eyewitness testimony, the transformation of the disciples, the conversion of Paul, and the conversion of James.

First, the empty tomb of Jesus contains strong historical corroboration due to the unreasonableness of the disciples to preach an empty tomb in Jerusalem when the critics of Christianity could have just uncovered the tomb, the fact that early polemics between Christians and Jews presuppose the empty tomb, and finally, the fact that women who were not regarded highly by ancient society are the chief witnesses of the empty tomb!   If the resurrection story of Jesus was borrowed from pagan mythology, then there would be no need for an empty tomb.

Second, we have extremely early testimony to the disciples’ belief that Jesus rose from the dead and appeared to them.  A pre-Pauline creed in 1 Cor. 15:3-8 has been dated by critical scholars to the early 30’s A.D.  This does not allow enough time for legend to embellish the core story of the text.  In fact, the events upon which the creed is based points right back to the early 30's, possibly only a year or even months from the resurrection event itself.  This would indicate that there really is no significant gap in time for legendary embellishments to explain the disciple’s core belief in the resurrection.

The early nature of the resurrection appearance accounts points to at least one, and possibly multiple, eyewitness accounts.  At least Paul in A.D. 55 mentions his own eyewitness resurrection account (1 Cor. 15:8).  In fact, the atheistic historian Michael Martin states that Paul is the only eyewitness that we have of the resurrection.   It is also quite possible that the 1 Cor. 15:3-8 creed also contains eyewitness material from the twelve, all of the apostles, Peter, James, 500, etc.

Third, the disciples were radically transformed from despairing doubters to persevering proclaimers of the gospel.  Is it really realistic to think that a pagan resurrection story is going to inspire pious Jews to adopt pagan ideology, change their worship from Saturday to Sunday, radically alter their views about their Messiah, change from despair about their dead Messiah, and then be willing to die for their faith and start proclaiming this “gospel” with conviction to hostile monotheistic audiences?

Fourth, Paul converted to Christianity as a result of what he claims is an eyewitness appearance of the risen Jesus (1 Cor. 15:8), endured much persecution (2 Cor. 11:23-28; Phil. 1:21-23; Acts 14:19; 16:19-24), and was willing to die for his faith.  Is it really reasonable to believe that he became a Christian due to adopting pagan mythology and would be willing to die for this belief?  As an educated Pharisee, he would have seen through the unhistorical claims of the pagan mythological parallels.

Fifth, James, the brother of Jesus, was also converted to Christianity as a result of an appearance of the risen Jesus (1 Cor. 15:7) and was willing to die for his faith (Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews 20:200; Hegesippus in Eusebius's Ecclesiastical History 2:23; and Clement of Alexandria in Eusebius's Ecclesiastical History 2:1, 23).  Before this appearance, he was a skeptic and did not believe that his brother was the Messiah (Mk. 3:21; Jn. 7:5).  Like Paul, it is extremely improbable, that as a pious Jew, these pagan parallels would have motivated him to believe in Jesus and be willing to die for his faith.

Think about this, only one of the original disciples died of old age.  Judas committed suicide immediately after betraying Jesus.  All the rest were martyred.  Slowly, painfully killed.  All they had to do to prevent this was simple, renounce Jesus.  Just say they were lying.  Or even say that maybe they were mistaken, and all of the miracles they saw were illusions or tricks.  But they didn't.  Tell me this, what would it take for you to give your life in a slow, agonizing, torturous manner?

"In this book, they list ten steps in the course of human evolution, each of which is so improbable that before it would have occurred the sun would have ceased to be a main sequence star and would have burned up the earth. They estimate the probability of the evolution of the human genome by chance to be on the order of 4∧(360)^110,000, a number which is so huge that to call it astronomical would be a wild understatement. In other words, if evolution did occur, it would have been a miracle, so that evolution is actually evidence for the existence of God”-William Lane Craig


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jackspell wrote:Is that it?

jackspell wrote:
Is that it? Nobody can provide a single, plausible, naturalistic explanation to the 3 facts that are universally acknowledged by historians? Alright then. I maintain my belief that God raised Jesus from the dead. Since no one can provide a terminator, no one can claim irrationality.

I think it is practically a given that you will ignore and somewhat meticulously dodge any evidence that goes against your ridiculous claims.

You make a pretty good spin doctor for evangelicals, but don't quit your day job just yet. Eye-wink

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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jackspell wrote:Is that it?

jackspell wrote:
Is that it? Nobody can provide a single, plausible, naturalistic explanation to the 3 facts that are universally acknowledged by historians? Alright then. I maintain my belief that God raised Jesus from the dead. Since no one can provide a terminator, no one can claim irrationality.

Claiming that Jesus survived death is not the same as PROVING it is possible.

You want a "terminator" to that claim?

RIGOR MORTIS,

Go to any morgue in the world, put a camera on every dead bloated stiff body in the world. YOU WONT see it come back to life.

The scientifically inept writers of that bible HAD NO FUCKING CLUE about modern biology. And whatever hoax perpetrated  by a con man, or con men, that convinced them to right such a bullshit claim, does not make "poof" logic evidence of anything but the fact that a bullshit claim was made and stuck in a book.

NO HUMAN HAS OR EVER WILL ESCAPE PERMANENT DEATH.

Once all the cells and organs die and decay, YOU STAY DEAD.

The death claim of Jesus in the bible is merely superstitious bullshit people wrote. It may have been based on some stage act like a Vagas illusionist making a jet disappear. But Jets don't magically disassemble their own atoms. Nor can a human body reverse permanent death.

The rational explanation was that it was merely a story written by people then who desperately wanted to have a super hero.

JUST LIKE THE Ancient Egyptians wanted so desperately to believe that the sun was a thinking deity. All those monuments and all those paintings and all those claims did not, nor ever will make the sun a deity, no matter how many people wanted it to be true.

It is not our fault someone believed that crap back then, or stuck those claims in that book. We know know what death is and all the stages of it on a scientific level. "God can do what he wants" is a bullshit claim. Otherwise he could also regrow a human head right now via "poof" if someone got their head blown off with a shotgun.

So the rational conclusion is people merely liked the idea of surviving death so they invented a super hero that could do that. I don't care how many people wanted that to be true, IT NEVER WAS TRUE AND WILL NEVER BE TRUE.

Stop living in the past. Your life wont end if you give up on an old myth.

 

 

 

 

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jackspell wrote:Is that it?

jackspell wrote:
Is that it? Nobody can provide a single, plausible, naturalistic explanation to the 3 facts that are universally acknowledged by historians? Alright then. I maintain my belief that God raised Jesus from the dead. Since no one can provide a terminator, no one can claim irrationality.

Your "facts" have been refuted repeatedly. Your irrationality in closing your eyes, plugging your ears and screaming "Huh-uh!" isn't going to change that. 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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jackspell wrote:Is that it?

jackspell wrote:
Is that it? Nobody can provide a single, plausible, naturalistic explanation to the 3 facts that are universally acknowledged by historians? Alright then. I maintain my belief that God raised Jesus from the dead. Since no one can provide a terminator, no one can claim irrationality.

Fox News probably can find a place for you, you have already mastered the art of spinning.

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jackspell wrote:Is that it?

jackspell wrote:
Is that it? Nobody can provide a single, plausible, naturalistic explanation to the 3 facts that are universally acknowledged by historians? Alright then. I maintain my belief that God raised Jesus from the dead. Since no one can provide a terminator, no one can claim irrationality.

It's funny how people believe that when words are put down on paper that they must be facts.  It's like magic. "SEE, it's written here!"  I often wonder if these stories would never had made it past fire-side bedtime fairy tales told by the elders of the tribe, would they have gotten so out of hand.

Well it sounds like you have put a lot of effort into convincing yourself.  Why don't you try this- write your own summary of the bible, read it back to yourself out-loud, and see how real it sounds to you then and get back to us. It doesn't take long. Just hit the key points and fantastic events. It goes like this:

God said abracadabra, a snake told Eve to eat the apple, Noah built a boat, Moses led the Jews, Jesus got himself hung up then he woke up and flew into the sky, and whoever believes it gets to magically go somewhere called heaven to live forever and those who don't go to hell. You can just sneak hell in there wherever you want cuz that's what the original story tellers did.

Or you can just paste more of other peoples crap here for us to laugh at.

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


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latincanuck wrote:jackspell

latincanuck wrote:

jackspell wrote:

Tell me this, if 7 billion people all reported a non-contradictory account of God appearing in the sky and speaking to them, would you believe it?

Yet all in all you never answer anything that anyone asks, you avoid answering the question in regards to the problems with you statements. The fact is those FACTS that you stated are not facts at all, they are assumptions at best.

Yep. I'm glad some one else has observed this...

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Nothing but a bunch of ad

Nothing but a bunch of ad hominems. Nobody wants to attempt to explain the empty tomb, post Mortem appearences, or the origin of the discples belief?

"In this book, they list ten steps in the course of human evolution, each of which is so improbable that before it would have occurred the sun would have ceased to be a main sequence star and would have burned up the earth. They estimate the probability of the evolution of the human genome by chance to be on the order of 4∧(360)^110,000, a number which is so huge that to call it astronomical would be a wild understatement. In other words, if evolution did occur, it would have been a miracle, so that evolution is actually evidence for the existence of God”-William Lane Craig


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jackspell wrote:Nothing but

jackspell wrote:
Nothing but a bunch of ad hominems. Nobody wants to attempt to explain the empty tomb, post Mortem appearences, or the origin of the discples belief?

Ok, I'll do it again. Make sure you have your eyes closed so you can say you didn't see this.

 

The empty tomb - As the gospels were written by Greeks who knew many resurrection myths and wanted to make their teacher Paul's "Jesus" a god, it isn't that hard to believe that Jesus would have a resurrection story.

Jesus post-mortem appearances - Again, the gods appearing to men after their "death" is a common element of the mythology that the Greek writers of the Gospels knew.

Origin of the disciples' belief - The members of the Jerusalem church led by James (those who walked with the man Jesus) loved and respected their teacher. The disciples of Paul believed anything Paul told them. The Jerusalem church were against the "Jesus as god" cult that Paul was building. See, Paul's mystery cult had nothing to do with what Jesus taught. Still doesn't.

 

You can open your eyes now.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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jackspell wrote:Nothing but

jackspell wrote:
Nothing but a bunch of ad hominems. Nobody wants to attempt to explain the empty tomb, post Mortem appearences, or the origin of the discples belief?

I don't care to explain lies I don't understand the context of all that well...

...except it is abundantly obvious that they were an attempt to formulate feudal authority and grab power in the West.

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Kapkao wrote:jackspell

Kapkao wrote:

jackspell wrote:
Nothing but a bunch of ad hominems. Nobody wants to attempt to explain the empty tomb, post Mortem appearences, or the origin of the discples belief?

I don't care to explain lies I don't understand the context of all that well...

...except it is abundantly obvious that they were an attempt to formulate feudal authority and grab power in the West.

Faith is a amazing lie. You can have your head so far up your ass that you can eat that burrito from yesterday and still say "if it's in the bible it must be real"

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jcgadfly wrote:jackspell

jcgadfly wrote:

jackspell wrote:
Nothing but a bunch of ad hominems. Nobody wants to attempt to explain the empty tomb, post Mortem appearences, or the origin of the discples belief?

Ok, I'll do it again. Make sure you have your eyes closed so you can say you didn't see this.

 

The empty tomb - As the gospels were written by Greeks who knew many resurrection myths and wanted to make their teacher Paul's "Jesus" a god, it isn't that hard to believe that Jesus would have a resurrection story.

Jesus post-mortem appearances - Again, the gods appearing to men after their "death" is a common element of the mythology that the Greek writers of the Gospels knew.

Origin of the disciples' belief - The members of the Jerusalem church led by James (those who walked with the man Jesus) loved and respected their teacher. The disciples of Paul believed anything Paul told them. The Jerusalem church were against the "Jesus as god" cult that Paul was building. See, Paul's mystery cult had nothing to do with what Jesus taught. Still doesn't.

 

You can open your eyes now.

Ok, I'll do this again. Make sure you have your eyes closed, so when you are standing before God, you can say that He never gave you any evidence. The empty tomb: ignoring all the professional historians (skeptics and non-believers) I have quoted who say that any attempt to deny the historicity of the gospels is absurd, I'll simply ask, why don't you give an example of one of these "myths" that Jesus is based on. Just give us one, whose hero is killed, resurrected, then ascends to heaven. Appearances: He appeared to several hundred more than just the writers. What about them? Disciples belief: your claims about Paul have no substance. Regarding the others who didn't die of natural causes or commit suicide; so 10 perfectly sane adults allowed themselves to be tortured to death to keep a lie going? That's what you call rational? You know people that would do that? Better yet, 10 people, that would all submit to a torturous death to cover up a lie? Well my friend, you are in no danger of a career as a detective. Pet detective, maybe.

"In this book, they list ten steps in the course of human evolution, each of which is so improbable that before it would have occurred the sun would have ceased to be a main sequence star and would have burned up the earth. They estimate the probability of the evolution of the human genome by chance to be on the order of 4∧(360)^110,000, a number which is so huge that to call it astronomical would be a wild understatement. In other words, if evolution did occur, it would have been a miracle, so that evolution is actually evidence for the existence of God”-William Lane Craig


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jackspell wrote: Ok, I'll

jackspell wrote:

 

 

Ok, I'll do this again. Make sure you have your eyes closed, so when you are standing before God....

 

     At least if I'm standing before God I'll finally get some fucking answers about "Creation Science"  as opposed to all the "pure speculation"  jackspence wasted our time with.

 

 

jackspell wrote:
... You know people that would do that? Better yet, 10 people, that would all submit to a torturous death to cover up a lie?

 

    Yes, the media frequently refers to them as "cultists".   

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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

jackspell wrote:

 

 

Ok, I'll do this again. Make sure you have your eyes closed, so when you are standing before God....

 

     At least if I'm standing before God I'll finally get some fucking answers about "Creation Science"  as opposed to all the "pure speculation"  jackspence wasted our time with.

 

 

jackspell wrote:
... You know people that would do that? Better yet, 10 people, that would all submit to a torturous death to cover up a lie?

 

    Yes, the media frequently refers to them as "cultists".   

I doubt he'd give you the pleasure at that point. And show me where you found the definition of cult to be people who die for something they KNOW is a lie.

"In this book, they list ten steps in the course of human evolution, each of which is so improbable that before it would have occurred the sun would have ceased to be a main sequence star and would have burned up the earth. They estimate the probability of the evolution of the human genome by chance to be on the order of 4∧(360)^110,000, a number which is so huge that to call it astronomical would be a wild understatement. In other words, if evolution did occur, it would have been a miracle, so that evolution is actually evidence for the existence of God”-William Lane Craig


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jackspell wrote:  I doubt

jackspell wrote:

 

 

I doubt he'd give you the pleasure at that point.  

 

    ....you're quite right as he would have to actually exist in order to do that.

 

jackspell wrote:
And show me where you found the definition of cult to be people who die for something they KNOW is a lie.

 

 You remember those people who flew the commercial airliners into the World Trade Center towers ?  How about the ones who blow themselves up so they can have 70 virgins in the afterlife ?   You may not believe it but they do.  To you getting 70 virgins in the afterlife is a lie, to them it's a truth worth DYING for. 

 

 

                            One religion's lies are another ones truths.  Up is down, left is right.  In religion truth is whatever you want it to be.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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jackspell wrote:Nothing but

jackspell wrote:
Nothing but a bunch of ad hominems. Nobody wants to attempt to explain the empty tomb, post Mortem appearences, or the origin of the discples belief?

1 Empty tomb not that hard, there was a person before jesus who supposedly was resurrected and had an empty tomb as well....John the baptist followers had claimed the empty tomb and resurrections before jesus, this is most likely why we have the empty tomb and resurrection myth of jesus, who's followers were also followers of John and may have had the same expectations of jesus because of it, as well of the persecution by the established powers, much like john being persecuted by Herod Antipas.

2 Post mortem appearances are probably due to the same reasons as mentioned above, i mean similar stories of 2 figured that have shared followers.

3 origin of their beliefs come from john the baptist as well....so yeah.....that explains that which is a far better explanation using  the historical evidence.....which is far superior than your supernatural beliefs.


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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

jackspell wrote:

 

 

I doubt he'd give you the pleasure at that point.  

 

    ....you're quite right as he would have to actually exist in order to do that.

 

jackspell wrote:
And show me where you found the definition of cult to be people who die for something they KNOW is a lie.

 

 You remember those people who flew the commercial airliners into the World Trade Center towers ?  How about the ones who blow themselves up so they can have 70 virgins in the afterlife ?   You may not believe it but they do.  To you getting 70 virgins in the afterlife is a lie, to them it's a truth worth DYING for. 

 

 

                            One religion's lies are another ones truths.  Up is down, left is right.  In religion truth is whatever you want it to be.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Are you really this slow? Maybe I can change the font or something.  PLEASE LIST A RELIGION/CULT/ANYBODY OR THING THAT WILLINGLY DIED FOR WHAT THEY KNEW WAS A LIE.  

 

"In this book, they list ten steps in the course of human evolution, each of which is so improbable that before it would have occurred the sun would have ceased to be a main sequence star and would have burned up the earth. They estimate the probability of the evolution of the human genome by chance to be on the order of 4∧(360)^110,000, a number which is so huge that to call it astronomical would be a wild understatement. In other words, if evolution did occur, it would have been a miracle, so that evolution is actually evidence for the existence of God”-William Lane Craig


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latincanuck wrote:jackspell

latincanuck wrote:

jackspell wrote:
Nothing but a bunch of ad hominems. Nobody wants to attempt to explain the empty tomb, post Mortem appearences, or the origin of the discples belief?

1 Empty tomb not that hard, there was a person before jesus who supposedly was resurrected and had an empty tomb as well....John the baptist followers had claimed the empty tomb and resurrections before jesus, this is most likely why we have the empty tomb and resurrection myth of jesus, who's followers were also followers of John and may have had the same expectations of jesus because of it, as well of the persecution by the established powers, much like john being persecuted by Herod Antipas.

2 Post mortem appearances are probably due to the same reasons as mentioned above, i mean similar stories of 2 figured that have shared followers.

3 origin of their beliefs come from john the baptist as well....so yeah.....that explains that which is a far better explanation using  the historical evidence.....which is far superior than your supernatural beliefs.

Where do you get these claims about John?

"In this book, they list ten steps in the course of human evolution, each of which is so improbable that before it would have occurred the sun would have ceased to be a main sequence star and would have burned up the earth. They estimate the probability of the evolution of the human genome by chance to be on the order of 4∧(360)^110,000, a number which is so huge that to call it astronomical would be a wild understatement. In other words, if evolution did occur, it would have been a miracle, so that evolution is actually evidence for the existence of God”-William Lane Craig


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Aum Shinrikyo, "The Supreme

Aum Shinrikyo, "The Supreme Truth".

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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jackspell wrote:latincanuck

jackspell wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

jackspell wrote:
Nothing but a bunch of ad hominems. Nobody wants to attempt to explain the empty tomb, post Mortem appearences, or the origin of the discples belief?

1 Empty tomb not that hard, there was a person before jesus who supposedly was resurrected and had an empty tomb as well....John the baptist followers had claimed the empty tomb and resurrections before jesus, this is most likely why we have the empty tomb and resurrection myth of jesus, who's followers were also followers of John and may have had the same expectations of jesus because of it, as well of the persecution by the established powers, much like john being persecuted by Herod Antipas.

2 Post mortem appearances are probably due to the same reasons as mentioned above, i mean similar stories of 2 figured that have shared followers.

3 origin of their beliefs come from john the baptist as well....so yeah.....that explains that which is a far better explanation using  the historical evidence.....which is far superior than your supernatural beliefs.

Where do you get these claims about John?

Mark 6:14, 16 where herod says john has risen from the dead. The jesus seminar, wichh studies the historical jesus....you know that little bit you posted about the historical jesus.....john dominic crossan stated that there is evidence that john had a larger following than jesus. That's where I get it, from biblical scholars.


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Once upon a time

jackspell wrote:
Nothing but a bunch of ad hominems. Nobody wants to attempt to explain the empty tomb, post Mortem appearences, or the origin of the discples belief?

Once upon a time Scholars believed the Earth was the center of the Universe.

This included educated people such as Plato and Aristole and countless others.

Guess what? They were all wrong.

The empty tomb is a storytelling legend from the 1st century. The only supposed evidence is found in the book that is part of the beliefs.

The same goes for the supposed appearances of a dead man, a legend.

Since none of the Gospels were actually written by the disciples but all were penned by later believers years later, what the disciples actually believed is not known.

Their actual names, actions, and end are also steeped in legend and storytelling.

Yes, there was a guy named Paul, who never met Jesus.

There was a high priest named James the Just. Paul, mentions Peter.

The rest of it is written years later by followers elsewhere. In very good Greek, not Aramaic, the language of the disciples. Who likely could not read or write. See a few books by Bart Ehrman and others about the origin of the NT.

As I've discussed in another thread, I do consider there was a guy named Jesus who may have thought himself to be the mashiach. However, it did not work out.

He was executed as a criminal, a rebel or for crimes against Rome. As were many uncountable Jews.

End story.

The scholars you quote have no evidence that the supposed historical actions you claim actually happened, ie. rose from the dead, was seen cavorting about Palestine, or why a group of guys who are also legendary at least as far as actions and their personal beliefs did or did not do.

These scholars have nothing but conjecture and opinions, much like those who thought the Earth was the center of the Universe.

 

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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jackspell wrote:Are you

jackspell wrote:

Are you really this slow? Maybe I can change the font or something.  PLEASE LIST A RELIGION/CULT/ANYBODY OR THING THAT WILLINGLY DIED FOR WHAT THEY KNEW WAS A LIE.  

 

 

 

 

But here's the point that you inexplicably fail to comprehend:

 

Everyone believes that they sacrificed themselves for truth.    Of course that implies that no one claims to knowingly die for a lie.  SO ?

 

       As I said .......CULTISTS DO IT ALL THE TIME.  

 

The Branch Davidians are a famous example. Or the People's Temple in Guyana.  Their bizarre theology was the "truth", too.  They believed it enough to DIE for it.   Of course I'm sure you'll fail to see the significance, but that's not my problem.


 

 

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jackspell wrote:jcgadfly

jackspell wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

jackspell wrote:
Nothing but a bunch of ad hominems. Nobody wants to attempt to explain the empty tomb, post Mortem appearences, or the origin of the discples belief?

Ok, I'll do it again. Make sure you have your eyes closed so you can say you didn't see this.

 

The empty tomb - As the gospels were written by Greeks who knew many resurrection myths and wanted to make their teacher Paul's "Jesus" a god, it isn't that hard to believe that Jesus would have a resurrection story.

Jesus post-mortem appearances - Again, the gods appearing to men after their "death" is a common element of the mythology that the Greek writers of the Gospels knew.

Origin of the disciples' belief - The members of the Jerusalem church led by James (those who walked with the man Jesus) loved and respected their teacher. The disciples of Paul believed anything Paul told them. The Jerusalem church were against the "Jesus as god" cult that Paul was building. See, Paul's mystery cult had nothing to do with what Jesus taught. Still doesn't.

 

You can open your eyes now.

Ok, I'll do this again. Make sure you have your eyes closed, so when you are standing before God, you can say that He never gave you any evidence. The empty tomb: ignoring all the professional historians (skeptics and non-believers) I have quoted who say that any attempt to deny the historicity of the gospels is absurd, I'll simply ask, why don't you give an example of one of these "myths" that Jesus is based on. Just give us one, whose hero is killed, resurrected, then ascends to heaven. Appearances: He appeared to several hundred more than just the writers. What about them? Disciples belief: your claims about Paul have no substance. Regarding the others who didn't die of natural causes or commit suicide; so 10 perfectly sane adults allowed themselves to be tortured to death to keep a lie going? That's what you call rational? You know people that would do that? Better yet, 10 people, that would all submit to a torturous death to cover up a lie? Well my friend, you are in no danger of a career as a detective. Pet detective, maybe.

It seems that this pet detective has slapped you stupid AGAIN as all you have done is re-iterate your claims without supporting them. Bring proof next time, OK?

See, none of these sources were written during the time of Jesus alleged death and resurrection so they have no standing to prove the empty tomb or the post mortem appearances. The TF of Josephus was added after Josephus wrote the original - not even Christian scholars dispute this. Maybe you should go find some.

As for examples of deities with myths like the ones behind Paul's Jesus - why don't we start with the ones that the Greeks who wrote the gospels knew? Mithra, Osiris and Dionysus come to mind. Remember, Paul and his converts were pagans trying to sell his god-idea to other pagans.

People die for beliefs all the time. I never said that the disciples knew that they were peddling a lie (The disciples were Jewish and peddling Jesus's Jewish teachings). As there was no proof that Paul was martyred (Ignatius is not proof), he was under no threat for peddling his lie. Indeed, the Romans found Christianity's willing submission to authority very useful.

Basically, the threat you started with (listen to you or God will get me) is the only weapon you have since you have no facts behind you.

The truth will set you free but you have to read it first. What you posted isn't truth and people here have shown you why repeatedly.

Will you Christian apologists ever bring anything new to the table? I'll wait until you find some Preparation H so you can get some relief from the people here shoving your "facts" back to their source. 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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jackspell wrote: I'll

jackspell wrote:

 I'll simply ask, why don't you give an example of one of these "myths" that Jesus is based on. Just give us one, whose hero is killed, resurrected, then ascends to heaven.

Heros/humans that are killed, resurrected and ascend to the heavens

Adonis, Orsiris, Achilles, Aristeas (who dies, is put in a locked room, it is later found to be empty, appears some 240 years later and is said to have travelled with Apollo), and Eshmun are just some of the figures in literature/religious history who die, resurrect and are made in to deities or ascend into the heavens, the jesus story is not a unique store, it's a more popular one.

Quote:

Appearances: He appeared to several hundred more than just the writers. What about them?

who where these witnesses you claim? Only Paul states it and doesn't state where it happened, or names anyone who saw him....so who are these hundreds of people? because that isn't a fact...it's a claim without evidence. Oh and Aristeas appears in Metapontum in southern italy to command that a statue of himself be made and a new altar for apollo to be set up.

Quote:

Disciples belief: your claims about Paul have no substance. Regarding the others who didn't die of natural causes or commit suicide; so 10 perfectly sane adults allowed themselves to be tortured to death to keep a lie going? That's what you call rational? You know people that would do that? Better yet, 10 people, that would all submit to a torturous death to cover up a lie? Well my friend, you are in no danger of a career as a detective. Pet detective, maybe.

People die for causes, ideology and religion all the time, happens throughout history time and time again, some are tortured and then killed as well, buddhist monks, muslims, even if it is found they are wrong in the end, it doesn't change the fact that they believed it to be true, jonestown, heavens gate cult all of those are mere examples of people strongly believing in something to be true even if the facts contradict that. but again you will ignore all of these statement and continue in your ignorance.


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latincanuck wrote:jackspell

latincanuck wrote:

jackspell wrote:

 I'll simply ask, why don't you give an example of one of these "myths" that Jesus is based on. Just give us one, whose hero is killed, resurrected, then ascends to heaven.

Heros/humans that are killed, resurrected and ascend to the heavens

Adonis, Orsiris, Achilles, Aristeas (who dies, is put in a locked room, it is later found to be empty, appears some 240 years later and is said to have travelled with Apollo), and Eshmun are just some of the figures in literature/religious history who die, resurrect and are made in to deities or ascend into the heavens, the jesus story is not a unique store, it's a more popular one.

Quote:

Appearances: He appeared to several hundred more than just the writers. What about them?

who where these witnesses you claim? Only Paul states it and doesn't state where it happened, or names anyone who saw him....so who are these hundreds of people? because that isn't a fact...it's a claim without evidence. Oh and Aristeas appears in Metapontum in southern italy to command that a statue of himself be made and a new altar for apollo to be set up.

Quote:

Disciples belief: your claims about Paul have no substance. Regarding the others who didn't die of natural causes or commit suicide; so 10 perfectly sane adults allowed themselves to be tortured to death to keep a lie going? That's what you call rational? You know people that would do that? Better yet, 10 people, that would all submit to a torturous death to cover up a lie? Well my friend, you are in no danger of a career as a detective. Pet detective, maybe.

People die for causes, ideology and religion all the time, happens throughout history time and time again, some are tortured and then killed as well, buddhist monks, muslims, even if it is found they are wrong in the end, it doesn't change the fact that they believed it to be true, jonestown, heavens gate cult all of those are mere examples of people strongly believing in something to be true even if the facts contradict that. but again you will ignore all of these statement and continue in your ignorance.

I IGNORE NOTHING. I am, howerver, outnumbered heavily on this site and involved in multiple threads, with only a finite time to respond to everyone.

Adonis- When he died she sprinkled the blood with nectar, from which sprang the short-lived anemone, which takes its name from the wind which so easily makes its petals fall. And so it is the blood of Adonis that each spring turns to red the torrential river, the Adonis River (also known as Abraham River or Nahr Ibrahim in Arabic) in modern Lebanon. Afqa is the sacred source where the waters of the river emerge from a huge grotto in a cliff 200 meters high. It is there that the myth of Astarte (Venus) and Adonis was born.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adonis

So he was killed by a pig, came back as a plant after some nectar was sprinkled on him, and turns rivers red in the spring. Yeah, that is exactly what Jesus did. PAY ATTENTION. DEATH, RESSURECTION, ASCENTION. That is what you CLAIM the parallels to be.

Osiris- Osiris was not only ruler of the dead but also the power that granted all life from the underworld, from sprouting vegetation to the annual flood of the Nile River. From about 2000 bce onward it was believed that every man, not just the deceased kings, became associated with Osiris at death. This identification with Osiris, however, did not imply resurrection, for even Osiris did not rise from the dead. Instead, it signified the renewal of life both in the next world and through one’s descendants on Earth. In this universalized form Osiris’s cult spread throughout Egypt, often joining with the cults of local fertility and underworld deities.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/433922/Osiris

You're 0 for 2.

Achilles- Hector (the eldest son of King Priam of Troy) slew Patroclus, and Achilles, having finally reconciled with Agamemnon, obtained new armour from the god Hephaestus and slew Hector. After dragging Hector’s body behind his chariot, Achilles gave it to Priam at his earnest entreaty. The Iliad concludes with the funeral rites of Hector. It makes no mention of the death of Achilles, though the Odyssey mentions his funeral. The poet Arctinus in his Aethiopis took up the story of the Iliad and related that Achilles, having slain the Ethiopian king Memnon and the Amazon Penthesilea, was himself slain in battle by Priam’s son Paris, whose arrow was guided by Apollo.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/3581/Achilles

Not even close!!!

Aristeas- Aristeas, they said, who belonged to one of the noblest families in the island, had entered one day into a fuller's shop, when he suddenly dropt down dead. Hereupon the fuller shut up his shop, and went to tell Aristeas' kindred what had happened. The report of the death had just spread through the town, when a certain Cyzicenian, lately arrived from Artaca, contradicted the rumour, affirming thathe hadmetAristeas onhis road to Cyzicus, and had spoken with him. This man,therefore,strenuously denied the rumour; the relations, however, proceeded to the fuller's shop with all things necessary for the funeral, intending to carry the body away. But on the shop being opened, no Aristeas was found, either dead or alive. Seven years afterwards he reappeared, they told me, in Proconnesus, and wrote the poem called by the Greeks The Arimaspeia, after which he disappeared a second time. This is the tale current in the two cities above-mentioned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristeas

What? Were you not aware that these myths aren't even close to the same claims, or did you deliberately try to decieve me?

Eshmun- Eshmun (or Eshmoun, less accurately Esmun or Esmoun) was a Phoenician god of healing and the tutelary god of Sidon.

This god was known at least from the Iron Age period at Sidon and was worshipped also in Tyre, Beirut, Cyprus, Sardinia, and in Carthage where the site of Eshmun's temple is now occupied by the chapel of Saint Louis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eshmun

You have got to be kidding me! Why did you make me waste my time to look all that up? Wow! Regardless, this was pathetic. None of these are anything like the story of Jesus' life.

And I'm not ignoring any of your statements. You just are not comprehending my argument. That's why, to me, it appears that you are ignoring my questions.

So please clarify: you arent saying the disciples were liars. Are you saying they really thought Jesus was God's son?

"In this book, they list ten steps in the course of human evolution, each of which is so improbable that before it would have occurred the sun would have ceased to be a main sequence star and would have burned up the earth. They estimate the probability of the evolution of the human genome by chance to be on the order of 4∧(360)^110,000, a number which is so huge that to call it astronomical would be a wild understatement. In other words, if evolution did occur, it would have been a miracle, so that evolution is actually evidence for the existence of God”-William Lane Craig


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jackspell wrote: I IGNORE

jackspell wrote:
I IGNORE NOTHING. I am, howerver, outnumbered heavily on this site and involved in multiple threads, with only a finite time to respond to everyone.

No you ignore alot, for example Ehrman you state that he believes jesus existed, except you ignore the part in which he doesn't believe in any part of the mythology, the resurrection, jesus being god's son etc, etc etc. Most biblical scholars don't believe the mythological parts as being true.

 

PAY ATTENTION. DEATH, RESSURECTION, ASCENTION.

I am paying attention, greek mythology is different than christian mythology we can draw parallels to how they viewed it all, in greek mythology the gods interacted with humans alot and in many cases humans entered the realms of the gods or the undead such as Hades or mount Olympus. Adonis depending on which version of the mythology you take was killed by the tusks of a wild boar sent by one of the gods out of jealous or hatred, depends on the version and which god, then either she spread his blood on nectar or she begs zeus to bring him back, which he does on one condition he spends half the time in hades and the other half with her, hence the cylce of the seasons, in which in winter the plants die because he is in hades and in summer the plants come back to life because he is with aphrodite. Reseach you have done none. Here we have death, resurrection and rising to the heavens with the gods...or in this case Aphrodite. Is it exactly like jesus nope, but it is similar enough due to the fact that  they are 2 different religions and have different takes on god/gods and how heaven and earth are viewed.

you can check that out here

http://www.greekmyths-greekmythology.com/myth-aphrodite-adonis/

http://www.in2greece.com/english/historymyth/mythology/names/adonis.htm

funny thing about myths, there tend to be various versions of how it happens. Same happens in the bible, same event, someone dies, what happens next varies depending on the author.

 

That is what you CLAIM the parallels to be. Osiris- Osiris was not only ruler of the dead but also the power that granted all life from the underworld, from sprouting vegetation to the annual flood of the Nile River. From about 2000 bce onward it was believed that every man, not just the deceased kings, became associated with Osiris at death. This identification with Osiris, however, did not imply resurrection, for even Osiris did not rise from the dead. Instead, it signified the renewal of life both in the next world and through one’s descendants on Earth. In this universalized form Osiris’s cult spread throughout Egypt, often joining with the cults of local fertility and underworld deities. http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/433922/Osiris You're 0 for 2.

No I am not 0-2 you just seem to want a very very specific thing yet asked for a general request, death, resurrection, ascension and when we do that, you state it's not the same, please stop moving the post make you look ignorant. Adonis above meets your criteria. As does Osiris, let me show you how.

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_Osiris_and_Isis

The original form of the myth states that Osiris was killed by a wooden sarcophagus secretly being made to his measurements by Set, who was jealous of Osiris's position as king, and so plotted to kill him and take his place

It was then sealed with lead and thrown into the Nile river. Upon hearing that Osiris was gone, Isis set out to look for him. She was afraid that without proper ceremonies and burial Osiris would not be able to go to the place of the dead.

Seth, while hunting, found Osiris's coffin and dismembered him into 14 parts, scattering them across the land of Egypt.

Once again Isis set out to look for the pieces and she was able to find 13 of the 14 parts, with the help of Nephthys, Seth's sister-wife, but was unable to find the 14th, as it had been eaten by a fish. Instead, she fashioned a phallus out of gold and sang a song around Osiris until he came back to life.

Osiris was resurrected. He could have proper ceremonies and burial.

Due to this experience, Osiris became Lord of the Dead, and the Afterlife.

There you have it, death, resurrection and ascension to godhood or deity in his realm, now now I get it, it's not your version of heaven/afterlife it is however for the Egyptians and it meets all your criteria.

Quote:

Achilles- Hector (the eldest son of King Priam of Troy) slew Patroclus, and Achilles, having finally reconciled with Agamemnon, obtained new armour from the god Hephaestus and slew Hector. After dragging Hector’s body behind his chariot, Achilles gave it to Priam at his earnest entreaty. The Iliad concludes with the funeral rites of Hector. It makes no mention of the death of Achilles, though the Odyssey mentions his funeral. The poet Arctinus in his Aethiopis took up the story of the Iliad and related that Achilles, having slain the Ethiopian king Memnon and the Amazon Penthesilea, was himself slain in battle by Priam’s son Paris, whose arrow was guided by Apollo. http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/3581/Achilles Not even close!!!

like all mythology there are various version and in one of them, his mother takes him from the funeral pryer to the island of leuke in the black sea where he lives. Technically not the same resurrection and ascension I agree however his mother is a deity. But again, death and resurrection is in various parts of ancient mythology.

Quote:

Aristeas- Aristeas, they said, who belonged to one of the noblest families in the island, had entered one day into a fuller's shop, when he suddenly dropt down dead. Hereupon the fuller shut up his shop, and went to tell Aristeas' kindred what had happened. The report of the death had just spread through the town, when a certain Cyzicenian, lately arrived from Artaca, contradicted the rumour, affirming thathe hadmetAristeas onhis road to Cyzicus, and had spoken with him. This man,therefore,strenuously denied the rumour; the relations, however, proceeded to the fuller's shop with all things necessary for the funeral, intending to carry the body away. But on the shop being opened, no Aristeas was found, either dead or alive. Seven years afterwards he reappeared, they told me, in Proconnesus, and wrote the poem called by the Greeks The Arimaspeia, after which he disappeared a second time. This is the tale current in the two cities above-mentioned. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristeas What? Were you not aware that these myths aren't even close to the same claims, or did you deliberately try to decieve me?

what you left part of wiki part out of the 240 years later which he has been traveling with Apollo as a sacred raven....yup seems like you misssed that part, dead, resurrected and ascension with Apollo....yup again meets the criteria even if you like to ignore it, is it exactly the same as jesus story nope, but you never claimed it had to be, and no stories will be exactly like jesus, just like every resurrection and ascension story are not exactly they same, they are meant to convoy a lesson.

Quote:

Eshmun- Eshmun (or Eshmoun, less accurately Esmun or Esmoun) was a Phoenician god of healing and the tutelary god of Sidon. This god was known at least from the Iron Age period at Sidon and was worshipped also in Tyre, Beirut, Cyprus, Sardinia, and in Carthage where the site of Eshmun's temple is now occupied by the chapel of Saint Louis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eshmun You have got to be kidding me! Why did you make me waste my time to look all that up? Wow! Regardless, this was pathetic. None of these are anything like the story of Jesus' life. And I'm not ignoring any of your statements.

Fuck dood seriously for someone that claims to do some research you really really fucking suck at it big time, let me show your ignorance on Eshmun

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Eshmun

The myth of Eshmun was related by the 6th century AD Syrian philosopher Damascius and 9th century AD Patriarch of Constantinople Photius. They recount that, a young man from Beirut, was hunting in the woods when Astarte saw him and was stricken by his beauty. She harassed him with her amorous pursuit until he emasculated himself with an axe and died. The grieving goddess revived Eshmun and transported him to the heavens where she made him into a uranic god.[nb 2][3]

This meets all your criteria, death, resurrection  and ascension to heaven.......what is your claim now? Oh that he wasn't a son of god?  Now I get it you want, you want and exact story like jesus, but that was NEVER PART OF THE CRITERIA. What you are doing is called moving the goal post, you make a demand and when it is met you change it....so please feel free to change it however the death, resurrection and ascension story of jesus is NOT unique. It has been told before many many times.

Quote:

You just are not comprehending my argument. That's why, to me, it appears that you are ignoring my questions. So please clarify: you arent saying the disciples were liars. Are you saying they really thought Jesus was God's son?

I am comprehending your argument, what your not comprehending is that the idea of death, resurrection and ascension to the afterlife/heaven is not a unique story. I am not saying that they believed it to be lies, although exaggerations in the stories are there, as with any legend or mythology, it makes the story more grandiose and pushes a lesson in the story or pushes an agenda or religious ideology. In this case that jesus is the messiah who is rejected by most of the jews as the messiah. His disciples may have believed him being the messiah, doesn't mean they were right. Much like the followers in Jonestown or the followers of heavens gate, or the followers of Falun gong who are tortured/killed by the chinese officials, I mean just because they believe in it doesn't make it true, people are willing to be tortured and killed for their beliefs, at no point does it make those beliefs actually true. So what is your point about the disciples and being tortured or killed?


pauljohntheskeptic
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Why the Jesus Story is Storytelling

The multiple legends and stories of The Jesus' last week result in a multiple choice situation. These choices are all from the 4 Gospels accounts.

Reproduced from a thread from 2 years ago - http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/20050

 

1- When Jesus came into Jerusalem -
a) Rides in on a donkey colt 2 disciples stole.
b) Rides in on an ass & a colt because he has so much baggage or his own ass was too big for only one.
c) Rides in on an ass he personally steals.


2-After he arrives in Jerusalem he
a) Goes to the Temple and overturns the moneychangers concessions committing insurrection.
b) Goes to Bethany and the next morning is hungry. He sees a fig tree and wants figs. The Sun Scorched One is so pissed when it has none, wrong season, he cursed it. Hungry, he has ill temper and trashes the concessions at the Temple. The following day, the tree has died. Jesus tells his disciples if you believe hard enough, you too shall cause property damage and untold destruction such as casting mountains into the sea.
c) Spies a fig tree as he is hungry. It has no figs, wrong season. He cursed it and it immediately dies. The disciples are amazed. Jesus says, if you pray hard enough you can have mountains cast into the sea. Jesus doesn't mention this will cause loss of life and tsunamis.


3-Jesus
a)has a massage, from expensive oil which was done by a woman who is not named. The disciples say it should be sold for cash for the poor. Jesus said no, I liked it.
b)recalls the foot massage a hooker gave him with expensive lotion. He also enjoyed this as well, though the disciples wanted to sell it this time too.
c)recalls the great massage Mary gave him. Judas always looking for money wanted to sell it.


4-The priests want to capture Jesus so
a)Judas goes to them and agrees to do it for 30 pieces of silver.
b)Judas goes to them because Satan has entered him and he agrees to sell out his friend.


5-Jesus wants a location for the Passover meal
a)so he sends out 2 disciples that are to look for a guy with a pitcher, follow him home. They are to go inside and demand to see the hall that the master wants for the festival.
b)so he sends his disciples to a man who they tell Jesus wants to have his meal there.
c)so he sends Peter & John to follow a guy with a pitcher home. They are to go inside and ask to see the banquet room.


6-Jesus
a)washes the disciples feet.
b)doesn'twash their feet, go to 7


7-Jesus claims
a)one of them will betray him and he'll have his hand in the main dish with me.
b)one of them will betray him and he'll have his hand in the main dish with me. Is it I asked Judas? Yes.
c)the one that will betray him has his hand on the table at the same time as he does. (everyone makes sure to keep their hands off the table)
d)the one that will betray me will take a sop from me.


8-Jesus said Peter will deny him 3 times
a)before the cock crowed twice
b)before the cock crows.


9-After dinner
a)they sing a hymn and go to the Mt of Olives.
b)Jesus tells them to sell their clothes and buy swords.


10-When they get to Gethsemane
a)Peter, James, & John go with him apart from the others, Jesus goes away by himself. He returns 3 times finding them asleep.
b)Jesus goes a stones throw from the disciples and prays. Angels comes to help him. He sweats as in blood droplets.
c)Judas shows up with the armed men.


11-When the armed band arrives to seize Jesus
a)one of the disciples slice off the ear of the high priest's servant.
b)one of the followers slice off the high priest's servant ear and Jesus immediately healed it.
c)Peter slices off the ear of Malchus, the high priest's servant.


12-After the armed men arrive
a)Jesus said he could have 12 legions of angels for defense if he wanted.
b)all the followers flee in fear, one so terrorized he loses his robe and runs naked from the scene.
c)Jesus causes them to all fall to the ground with just words.


13-After he is captured, Jesus is taken to
a)the high priest's palace.
b)the high priest's father-in-law's house.


14-Peter follows and gains access
a)by walking into the outer courtyard, warming himself by the fire.
b)when another disciple who is known to the priests goes in and informs the woman at the door to let him inside.


15-Peter denies knowing Jesus first to
a) a serving maid at the fire and then the cock crows.
b)a woman who approached him in the courtyard.
c)a woman inside the hall.
d)the woman at the door who lets him inside.


16-Peter denies knowing Jesus the 2nd time to
a)another woman while he was standing around near the fire.
b)a maid while he is on the porch.
c)another who claims he too was among the followers.
d)those standing about the fire.


17-Peter denies knowing Jesus the 3rd time
a)to others who said surely you are one of his followers as you are Galilean. The cock crowed a 2nd time.
b)to those about the fire. The cock then crows.
c)to a man who said, he is one of them as he is Galilean. Jesus then looks directly at him.
d)to a servant who is a relative of the guy who's ear Peter had cut off.


18-Jesus is taken
a)to Pilate. Who decides to quickly dispatch him to his execution after he gave the people a choice between Jesus and Barabas.
b)to Pilate. Who heeds his wife's warning as she had a dream he should have nothing to do with this incident. He then washes his hands of it, He gives the people a choice, Jesus or Barabas will die, the other goes free. They want Jesus executed.
c)to Pilate. When he hears he is Galilean, sends him to Herod. Herod is elated, he wanted to see Jesus' magic tricks. Jesus doesn’t perform. He is sent back to Pilate. Pilate gives the people a choice. Jesus or Barabas will die, the other goes free. They want Jesus executed.


19-Jesus is taken to his execution site
a)en route Simon is pressed into service to carry the cross.
b)en route Simon is pressed into service to carry the cross. and Jesus has time to discuss with the many women how their lives will become filled with woe.
c)directly.


20-While on the cross
a)the other 2 criminals say nothing to him.
b)the other 2 criminals insult and make fun of Jesus along with the lynch mob.
c)one of the criminals insults and mocks Jesus while the other is repentant.


21- When Jesus dies
a)the veil in the Temple is torn in two.
b)the veil in the Temple is torn in two. There is an Earthquake and dead people rise from the grave wandering the city.
c)it is right after he tells his mom and a disciple, behold thy mom, behold thy son.


22-Observing the execution
a)from afar were many women including Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James & Joses, and Salome.
b)close enough to talk with Jesus were Mary his mother and his disciple John.
c)may have been some of his followers from afar. (optional)


23-After Jesus has died
a)he is speared.
b)he is not speared.


24-Joseph asked Pilate for the body of Jesus
a)and he was a rich man.
b)a Pharisee
c)a good & just man.
d)all of the above.


25-Jesus is placed
a)in a new tomb with new linen by Joseph
b)in Joseph's own new tomb.
c)in a new tomb after Joseph removed Jesus from the cross.
d)in a new tomb that was convenient to the place of execution by Joseph and Nicodemus.


26-The Herodian priests and their enemies the Pharisees
a)went to see Pilate requesting the tomb be guarded and sealed lest his disciples steal the body and claim he had been resurrected as he had prophesied.
b)would not walk across the street to say shit to each other yet alone work on something together.


27-On the 1st day of the week
a)Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of Joses & James and Salome visit the tomb.
b)Mary Magdalene and the other Mary visit the tomb
c)Mary Magdalene, Joanna, and Mary the mother of James & John visit the tomb.
d)Mary Magdalene went to the tomb.


28-When she/they got to the tomb
a)an angel is inside who told them Jesus is not there he has risen & will meet his disciples in Galilee.
b)2 angels are inside the tomb who tells them that Jesus is risen and will meet his followers in Galilee.
c)2 angels are in the tomb and they ask why the weeping. When she/they turn around a man thought to be a gardener is asked where the body has been taken. The man says, Mary and is recognized as Jesus.


29-When the women
a)see Jesus they touched his feet.
b)see Jesus are told not to touch him.
c)leave they tell no one.
d)leave, Mary Magdalene claimed to see Jesus.


30-2 followers/disciples
a)see Jesus in the country while walking and he was in another shape or form.
b)one named Cleopas see him on the road to Emmaus. When they stop for a meal, he disappears after he breaks bread.


31-A group of
a)11 disciples see Jesus in Galilee when they are eating. He gives them their commission & departs for heaven.
b)11 disciples go to a mountain in Galilee where Jesus appears. He gives them their commission. He then is not in the plot of the story any longer.
c)11 disciples are informed of the Jesus sighting on the road when he appears to them in Jerusalem. After he gives them their commission he departs for Heaven from Bethany.
d)10 disciples were hiding from arrest warrants behind closed doors when Jesus appears. He breathes on them the Holy Ghost, rendering the Luke version in Acts pointless. Thomas not there does not believe. 8 days later all 11 are gathered together and Jesus returns. Thomas touches the marks in his hands as well as the gash in his side. Mary M wasn't allowed to touch him earlier but Thomas can.

These multiple accounts are just like other story telling legends. There are variations between them that discredit one another.

If one goes through the Gospels' story telling one can find many other strange happenings that indicate they originated in various locales from legends and are not consistent.

I have pointed out these problems countless times to believers who justify their beliefs in the NT stories by ignoring the discrepancies or indicating that the writer of the legends just had different perspectives.

Yeah, they did, one got it in a tavern in Bethel, one in a tavern in Galilee, one in the market of Jerusalem, one in Mizpah or something like that; over many glasses of wine.

 

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


Kapkao
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latincanuck wrote:jackspell

latincanuck wrote:

jackspell wrote:
I IGNORE NOTHING. I am, howerver, outnumbered heavily on this site and involved in multiple threads, with only a finite time to respond to everyone.

No you ignore alot, for example Ehrman you state that he believes jesus existed, except you ignore the part in which he doesn't believe in any part of the mythology, the resurrection, jesus being god's son etc, etc etc. Most biblical scholars don't believe the mythological parts as being true.

 

PAY ATTENTION. DEATH, RESSURECTION, ASCENTION.

I am paying attention, greek mythology is different than christian mythology we can draw parallels to how they viewed it all, in greek mythology the gods interacted with humans alot and in many cases humans entered the realms of the gods or the undead such as Hades or mount Olympus. Adonis depending on which version of the mythology you take was killed by the tusks of a wild boar sent by one of the gods out of jealous or hatred, depends on the version and which god, then either she spread his blood on nectar or she begs zeus to bring him back, which he does on one condition he spends half the time in hades and the other half with her, hence the cylce of the seasons, in which in winter the plants die because he is in hades and in summer the plants come back to life because he is with aphrodite. Reseach you have done none. Here we have death, resurrection and rising to the heavens with the gods...or in this case Aphrodite. Is it exactly like jesus nope, but it is similar enough due to the fact that  they are 2 different religions and have different takes on god/gods and how heaven and earth are viewed.

you can check that out here

http://www.greekmyths-greekmythology.com/myth-aphrodite-adonis/

http://www.in2greece.com/english/historymyth/mythology/names/adonis.htm

funny thing about myths, there tend to be various versions of how it happens. Same happens in the bible, same event, someone dies, what happens next varies depending on the author.

 

That is what you CLAIM the parallels to be. Osiris- Osiris was not only ruler of the dead but also the power that granted all life from the underworld, from sprouting vegetation to the annual flood of the Nile River. From about 2000 bce onward it was believed that every man, not just the deceased kings, became associated with Osiris at death. This identification with Osiris, however, did not imply resurrection, for even Osiris did not rise from the dead. Instead, it signified the renewal of life both in the next world and through one’s descendants on Earth. In this universalized form Osiris’s cult spread throughout Egypt, often joining with the cults of local fertility and underworld deities. http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/433922/Osiris You're 0 for 2.

No I am not 0-2 you just seem to want a very very specific thing yet asked for a general request, death, resurrection, ascension and when we do that, you state it's not the same, please stop moving the post make you look ignorant. Adonis above meets your criteria. As does Osiris, let me show you how.

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_Osiris_and_Isis

The original form of the myth states that Osiris was killed by a wooden sarcophagus secretly being made to his measurements by Set, who was jealous of Osiris's position as king, and so plotted to kill him and take his place

It was then sealed with lead and thrown into the Nile river. Upon hearing that Osiris was gone, Isis set out to look for him. She was afraid that without proper ceremonies and burial Osiris would not be able to go to the place of the dead.

Seth, while hunting, found Osiris's coffin and dismembered him into 14 parts, scattering them across the land of Egypt.

Once again Isis set out to look for the pieces and she was able to find 13 of the 14 parts, with the help of Nephthys, Seth's sister-wife, but was unable to find the 14th, as it had been eaten by a fish. Instead, she fashioned a phallus out of gold and sang a song around Osiris until he came back to life.

Osiris was resurrected. He could have proper ceremonies and burial.

Due to this experience, Osiris became Lord of the Dead, and the Afterlife.

There you have it, death, resurrection and ascension to godhood or deity in his realm, now now I get it, it's not your version of heaven/afterlife it is however for the Egyptians and it meets all your criteria.

Quote:

Achilles- Hector (the eldest son of King Priam of Troy) slew Patroclus, and Achilles, having finally reconciled with Agamemnon, obtained new armour from the god Hephaestus and slew Hector. After dragging Hector’s body behind his chariot, Achilles gave it to Priam at his earnest entreaty. The Iliad concludes with the funeral rites of Hector. It makes no mention of the death of Achilles, though the Odyssey mentions his funeral. The poet Arctinus in his Aethiopis took up the story of the Iliad and related that Achilles, having slain the Ethiopian king Memnon and the Amazon Penthesilea, was himself slain in battle by Priam’s son Paris, whose arrow was guided by Apollo. http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/3581/Achilles Not even close!!!

like all mythology there are various version and in one of them, his mother takes him from the funeral pryer to the island of leuke in the black sea where he lives. Technically not the same resurrection and ascension I agree however his mother is a deity. But again, death and resurrection is in various parts of ancient mythology.

Quote:

Aristeas- Aristeas, they said, who belonged to one of the noblest families in the island, had entered one day into a fuller's shop, when he suddenly dropt down dead. Hereupon the fuller shut up his shop, and went to tell Aristeas' kindred what had happened. The report of the death had just spread through the town, when a certain Cyzicenian, lately arrived from Artaca, contradicted the rumour, affirming thathe hadmetAristeas onhis road to Cyzicus, and had spoken with him. This man,therefore,strenuously denied the rumour; the relations, however, proceeded to the fuller's shop with all things necessary for the funeral, intending to carry the body away. But on the shop being opened, no Aristeas was found, either dead or alive. Seven years afterwards he reappeared, they told me, in Proconnesus, and wrote the poem called by the Greeks The Arimaspeia, after which he disappeared a second time. This is the tale current in the two cities above-mentioned. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristeas What? Were you not aware that these myths aren't even close to the same claims, or did you deliberately try to decieve me?

what you left part of wiki part out of the 240 years later which he has been traveling with Apollo as a sacred raven....yup seems like you misssed that part, dead, resurrected and ascension with Apollo....yup again meets the criteria even if you like to ignore it, is it exactly the same as jesus story nope, but you never claimed it had to be, and no stories will be exactly like jesus, just like every resurrection and ascension story are not exactly they same, they are meant to convoy a lesson.

Quote:

Eshmun- Eshmun (or Eshmoun, less accurately Esmun or Esmoun) was a Phoenician god of healing and the tutelary god of Sidon. This god was known at least from the Iron Age period at Sidon and was worshipped also in Tyre, Beirut, Cyprus, Sardinia, and in Carthage where the site of Eshmun's temple is now occupied by the chapel of Saint Louis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eshmun You have got to be kidding me! Why did you make me waste my time to look all that up? Wow! Regardless, this was pathetic. None of these are anything like the story of Jesus' life. And I'm not ignoring any of your statements.

Fuck dood seriously for someone that claims to do some research you really really fucking suck at it big time, let me show your ignorance on Eshmun

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Eshmun

The myth of Eshmun was related by the 6th century AD Syrian philosopher Damascius and 9th century AD Patriarch of Constantinople Photius. They recount that, a young man from Beirut, was hunting in the woods when Astarte saw him and was stricken by his beauty. She harassed him with her amorous pursuit until he emasculated himself with an axe and died. The grieving goddess revived Eshmun and transported him to the heavens where she made him into a uranic god.[nb 2][3]

This meets all your criteria, death, resurrection  and ascension to heaven.......what is your claim now? Oh that he wasn't a son of god?  Now I get it you want, you want and exact story like jesus, but that was NEVER PART OF THE CRITERIA. What you are doing is called moving the goal post, you make a demand and when it is met you change it....so please feel free to change it however the death, resurrection and ascension story of jesus is NOT unique. It has been told before many many times.

Quote:

You just are not comprehending my argument. That's why, to me, it appears that you are ignoring my questions. So please clarify: you arent saying the disciples were liars. Are you saying they really thought Jesus was God's son?

I am comprehending your argument, what your not comprehending is that the idea of death, resurrection and ascension to the afterlife/heaven is not a unique story. I am not saying that they believed it to be lies, although exaggerations in the stories are there, as with any legend or mythology, it makes the story more grandiose and pushes a lesson in the story or pushes an agenda or religious ideology. In this case that jesus is the messiah who is rejected by most of the jews as the messiah. His disciples may have believed him being the messiah, doesn't mean they were right. Much like the followers in Jonestown or the followers of heavens gate, or the followers of Falun gong who are tortured/killed by the chinese officials, I mean just because they believe in it doesn't make it true, people are willing to be tortured and killed for their beliefs, at no point does it make those beliefs actually true. So what is your point about the disciples and being tortured or killed?

wow, you helped me break the bloody forum formatting! Thanks, LC!

 

with a minor addendum that this thread is starting to bore.

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


Kapkao
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Kapkao wrote:latincanuck

Kapkao wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

jackspell wrote:
I IGNORE NOTHING. I am, howerver, outnumbered heavily on this site and involved in multiple threads, with only a finite time to respond to everyone.

No you ignore alot, for example Ehrman you state that he believes jesus existed, except you ignore the part in which he doesn't believe in any part of the mythology, the resurrection, jesus being god's son etc, etc etc. Most biblical scholars don't believe the mythological parts as being true.

 

PAY ATTENTION. DEATH, RESSURECTION, ASCENTION.

I am paying attention, greek mythology is different than christian mythology we can draw parallels to how they viewed it all, in greek mythology the gods interacted with humans alot and in many cases humans entered the realms of the gods or the undead such as Hades or mount Olympus. Adonis depending on which version of the mythology you take was killed by the tusks of a wild boar sent by one of the gods out of jealous or hatred, depends on the version and which god, then either she spread his blood on nectar or she begs zeus to bring him back, which he does on one condition he spends half the time in hades and the other half with her, hence the cylce of the seasons, in which in winter the plants die because he is in hades and in summer the plants come back to life because he is with aphrodite. Reseach you have done none. Here we have death, resurrection and rising to the heavens with the gods...or in this case Aphrodite. Is it exactly like jesus nope, but it is similar enough due to the fact that  they are 2 different religions and have different takes on god/gods and how heaven and earth are viewed.

you can check that out here

http://www.greekmyths-greekmythology.com/myth-aphrodite-adonis/

http://www.in2greece.com/english/historymyth/mythology/names/adonis.htm

funny thing about myths, there tend to be various versions of how it happens. Same happens in the bible, same event, someone dies, what happens next varies depending on the author.

 

That is what you CLAIM the parallels to be. Osiris- Osiris was not only ruler of the dead but also the power that granted all life from the underworld, from sprouting vegetation to the annual flood of the Nile River. From about 2000 bce onward it was believed that every man, not just the deceased kings, became associated with Osiris at death. This identification with Osiris, however, did not imply resurrection, for even Osiris did not rise from the dead. Instead, it signified the renewal of life both in the next world and through one’s descendants on Earth. In this universalized form Osiris’s cult spread throughout Egypt, often joining with the cults of local fertility and underworld deities. http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/433922/Osiris You're 0 for 2.

No I am not 0-2 you just seem to want a very very specific thing yet asked for a general request, death, resurrection, ascension and when we do that, you state it's not the same, please stop moving the post make you look ignorant. Adonis above meets your criteria. As does Osiris, let me show you how.

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_Osiris_and_Isis

The original form of the myth states that Osiris was killed by a wooden sarcophagus secretly being made to his measurements by Set, who was jealous of Osiris's position as king, and so plotted to kill him and take his place

It was then sealed with lead and thrown into the Nile river. Upon hearing that Osiris was gone, Isis set out to look for him. She was afraid that without proper ceremonies and burial Osiris would not be able to go to the place of the dead.

Seth, while hunting, found Osiris's coffin and dismembered him into 14 parts, scattering them across the land of Egypt.

Once again Isis set out to look for the pieces and she was able to find 13 of the 14 parts, with the help of Nephthys, Seth's sister-wife, but was unable to find the 14th, as it had been eaten by a fish. Instead, she fashioned a phallus out of gold and sang a song around Osiris until he came back to life.

Osiris was resurrected. He could have proper ceremonies and burial.

Due to this experience, Osiris became Lord of the Dead, and the Afterlife.

There you have it, death, resurrection and ascension to godhood or deity in his realm, now now I get it, it's not your version of heaven/afterlife it is however for the Egyptians and it meets all your criteria.

Quote:

Achilles- Hector (the eldest son of King Priam of Troy) slew Patroclus, and Achilles, having finally reconciled with Agamemnon, obtained new armour from the god Hephaestus and slew Hector. After dragging Hector’s body behind his chariot, Achilles gave it to Priam at his earnest entreaty. The Iliad concludes with the funeral rites of Hector. It makes no mention of the death of Achilles, though the Odyssey mentions his funeral. The poet Arctinus in his Aethiopis took up the story of the Iliad and related that Achilles, having slain the Ethiopian king Memnon and the Amazon Penthesilea, was himself slain in battle by Priam’s son Paris, whose arrow was guided by Apollo. http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/3581/Achilles Not even close!!!

like all mythology there are various version and in one of them, his mother takes him from the funeral pryer to the island of leuke in the black sea where he lives. Technically not the same resurrection and ascension I agree however his mother is a deity. But again, death and resurrection is in various parts of ancient mythology.

Quote:

Aristeas- Aristeas, they said, who belonged to one of the noblest families in the island, had entered one day into a fuller's shop, when he suddenly dropt down dead. Hereupon the fuller shut up his shop, and went to tell Aristeas' kindred what had happened. The report of the death had just spread through the town, when a certain Cyzicenian, lately arrived from Artaca, contradicted the rumour, affirming thathe hadmetAristeas onhis road to Cyzicus, and had spoken with him. This man,therefore,strenuously denied the rumour; the relations, however, proceeded to the fuller's shop with all things necessary for the funeral, intending to carry the body away. But on the shop being opened, no Aristeas was found, either dead or alive. Seven years afterwards he reappeared, they told me, in Proconnesus, and wrote the poem called by the Greeks The Arimaspeia, after which he disappeared a second time. This is the tale current in the two cities above-mentioned. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristeas What? Were you not aware that these myths aren't even close to the same claims, or did you deliberately try to decieve me?

what you left part of wiki part out of the 240 years later which he has been traveling with Apollo as a sacred raven....yup seems like you misssed that part, dead, resurrected and ascension with Apollo....yup again meets the criteria even if you like to ignore it, is it exactly the same as jesus story nope, but you never claimed it had to be, and no stories will be exactly like jesus, just like every resurrection and ascension story are not exactly they same, they are meant to convoy a lesson.

Quote:

Eshmun- Eshmun (or Eshmoun, less accurately Esmun or Esmoun) was a Phoenician god of healing and the tutelary god of Sidon. This god was known at least from the Iron Age period at Sidon and was worshipped also in Tyre, Beirut, Cyprus, Sardinia, and in Carthage where the site of Eshmun's temple is now occupied by the chapel of Saint Louis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eshmun You have got to be kidding me! Why did you make me waste my time to look all that up? Wow! Regardless, this was pathetic. None of these are anything like the story of Jesus' life. And I'm not ignoring any of your statements.

Fuck dood seriously for someone that claims to do some research you really really fucking suck at it big time, let me show your ignorance on Eshmun

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Eshmun

The myth of Eshmun was related by the 6th century AD Syrian philosopher Damascius and 9th century AD Patriarch of Constantinople Photius. They recount that, a young man from Beirut, was hunting in the woods when Astarte saw him and was stricken by his beauty. She harassed him with her amorous pursuit until he emasculated himself with an axe and died. The grieving goddess revived Eshmun and transported him to the heavens where she made him into a uranic god.[nb 2][3]

This meets all your criteria, death, resurrection  and ascension to heaven.......what is your claim now? Oh that he wasn't a son of god?  Now I get it you want, you want and exact story like jesus, but that was NEVER PART OF THE CRITERIA. What you are doing is called moving the goal post, you make a demand and when it is met you change it....so please feel free to change it however the death, resurrection and ascension story of jesus is NOT unique. It has been told before many many times.

Quote:

You just are not comprehending my argument. That's why, to me, it appears that you are ignoring my questions. So please clarify: you arent saying the disciples were liars. Are you saying they really thought Jesus was God's son?

I am comprehending your argument, what your not comprehending is that the idea of death, resurrection and ascension to the afterlife/heaven is not a unique story. I am not saying that they believed it to be lies, although exaggerations in the stories are there, as with any legend or mythology, it makes the story more grandiose and pushes a lesson in the story or pushes an agenda or religious ideology. In this case that jesus is the messiah who is rejected by most of the jews as the messiah. His disciples may have believed him being the messiah, doesn't mean they were right. Much like the followers in Jonestown or the followers of heavens gate, or the followers of Falun gong who are tortured/killed by the chinese officials, I mean just because they believe in it doesn't make it true, people are willing to be tortured and killed for their beliefs, at no point does it make those beliefs actually true. So what is your point about the disciples and being tortured or killed?

wow, you helped me break the bloody forum formatting! Thanks, LC!

 

with a minor addendum that this thread is starting to bore.

Hey guise look at me I break teh formatting again wee woohoo isn't this megafunz??!!!

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Hey Kapkao I try to do my

Hey Kapkao I try to do my part in breaking things hahaha


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^ Guys, I think you made

^

 

Guys, I think you made him speechless because the above post is blank unless he fucked up and his copy-paste routine didn't pan out this time.

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Sage_Override wrote:^ Guys,

Sage_Override wrote:

^

 

Guys, I think you made him speechless because the above post is blank unless he fucked up and his copy-paste routine didn't pan out this time.

He not only is speechless, he's been running away from us ever since he first posted.

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jackspell wrote: This has

jackspell wrote:

 

This has to be the most constructive post you have made Jack.

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jackspell wrote: 

jackspell wrote:

 

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Quote:He not only is

Quote:
He not only is speechless, he's been running away from us ever since he first posted.

 

Maybe he got scared of your Hanover Fist picture and thought you might suddenly say "JAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACK!!!!!" and turn into a crazed killing machine.

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digitalbeachbum wrote:He not

digitalbeachbum wrote:

He not only is speechless, he's been running away from us ever since he first posted.

 

                                                                  jackspell will be back....either as "jackspell" or a sock puppet.  I guarantee it.  

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jackspell wrote:Is that it?

jackspell wrote:
Is that it? Nobody can provide a single, plausible, naturalistic explanation to the 3 facts that are universally acknowledged by historians? Alright then. I maintain my belief that God raised Jesus from the dead. Since no one can provide a terminator, no one can claim irrationality.

Funny how I proved you a liar with a mere sentence or two, and the only response you could come up with was to call me a terrorist.

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Kapkao wrote:Kapkao

Kapkao wrote:

Kapkao wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

jackspell wrote:
I IGNORE NOTHING. I am, howerver, outnumbered heavily on this site and involved in multiple threads, with only a finite time to respond to everyone.

No you ignore alot, for example Ehrman you state that he believes jesus existed, except you ignore the part in which he doesn't believe in any part of the mythology, the resurrection, jesus being god's son etc, etc etc. Most biblical scholars don't believe the mythological parts as being true.

 

PAY ATTENTION. DEATH, RESSURECTION, ASCENTION.

I am paying attention, greek mythology is different than christian mythology we can draw parallels to how they viewed it all, in greek mythology the gods interacted with humans alot and in many cases humans entered the realms of the gods or the undead such as Hades or mount Olympus. Adonis depending on which version of the mythology you take was killed by the tusks of a wild boar sent by one of the gods out of jealous or hatred, depends on the version and which god, then either she spread his blood on nectar or she begs zeus to bring him back, which he does on one condition he spends half the time in hades and the other half with her, hence the cylce of the seasons, in which in winter the plants die because he is in hades and in summer the plants come back to life because he is with aphrodite. Reseach you have done none. Here we have death, resurrection and rising to the heavens with the gods...or in this case Aphrodite. Is it exactly like jesus nope, but it is similar enough due to the fact that  they are 2 different religions and have different takes on god/gods and how heaven and earth are viewed.

you can check that out here

http://www.greekmyths-greekmythology.com/myth-aphrodite-adonis/

http://www.in2greece.com/english/historymyth/mythology/names/adonis.htm

funny thing about myths, there tend to be various versions of how it happens. Same happens in the bible, same event, someone dies, what happens next varies depending on the author.

 

That is what you CLAIM the parallels to be. Osiris- Osiris was not only ruler of the dead but also the power that granted all life from the underworld, from sprouting vegetation to the annual flood of the Nile River. From about 2000 bce onward it was believed that every man, not just the deceased kings, became associated with Osiris at death. This identification with Osiris, however, did not imply resurrection, for even Osiris did not rise from the dead. Instead, it signified the renewal of life both in the next world and through one’s descendants on Earth. In this universalized form Osiris’s cult spread throughout Egypt, often joining with the cults of local fertility and underworld deities. http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/433922/Osiris You're 0 for 2.

No I am not 0-2 you just seem to want a very very specific thing yet asked for a general request, death, resurrection, ascension and when we do that, you state it's not the same, please stop moving the post make you look ignorant. Adonis above meets your criteria. As does Osiris, let me show you how.

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_Osiris_and_Isis

The original form of the myth states that Osiris was killed by a wooden sarcophagus secretly being made to his measurements by Set, who was jealous of Osiris's position as king, and so plotted to kill him and take his place

It was then sealed with lead and thrown into the Nile river. Upon hearing that Osiris was gone, Isis set out to look for him. She was afraid that without proper ceremonies and burial Osiris would not be able to go to the place of the dead.

Seth, while hunting, found Osiris's coffin and dismembered him into 14 parts, scattering them across the land of Egypt.

Once again Isis set out to look for the pieces and she was able to find 13 of the 14 parts, with the help of Nephthys, Seth's sister-wife, but was unable to find the 14th, as it had been eaten by a fish. Instead, she fashioned a phallus out of gold and sang a song around Osiris until he came back to life.

Osiris was resurrected. He could have proper ceremonies and burial.

Due to this experience, Osiris became Lord of the Dead, and the Afterlife.

There you have it, death, resurrection and ascension to godhood or deity in his realm, now now I get it, it's not your version of heaven/afterlife it is however for the Egyptians and it meets all your criteria.

Quote:

Achilles- Hector (the eldest son of King Priam of Troy) slew Patroclus, and Achilles, having finally reconciled with Agamemnon, obtained new armour from the god Hephaestus and slew Hector. After dragging Hector’s body behind his chariot, Achilles gave it to Priam at his earnest entreaty. The Iliad concludes with the funeral rites of Hector. It makes no mention of the death of Achilles, though the Odyssey mentions his funeral. The poet Arctinus in his Aethiopis took up the story of the Iliad and related that Achilles, having slain the Ethiopian king Memnon and the Amazon Penthesilea, was himself slain in battle by Priam’s son Paris, whose arrow was guided by Apollo. http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/3581/Achilles Not even close!!!

like all mythology there are various version and in one of them, his mother takes him from the funeral pryer to the island of leuke in the black sea where he lives. Technically not the same resurrection and ascension I agree however his mother is a deity. But again, death and resurrection is in various parts of ancient mythology.

Quote:

Aristeas- Aristeas, they said, who belonged to one of the noblest families in the island, had entered one day into a fuller's shop, when he suddenly dropt down dead. Hereupon the fuller shut up his shop, and went to tell Aristeas' kindred what had happened. The report of the death had just spread through the town, when a certain Cyzicenian, lately arrived from Artaca, contradicted the rumour, affirming thathe hadmetAristeas onhis road to Cyzicus, and had spoken with him. This man,therefore,strenuously denied the rumour; the relations, however, proceeded to the fuller's shop with all things necessary for the funeral, intending to carry the body away. But on the shop being opened, no Aristeas was found, either dead or alive. Seven years afterwards he reappeared, they told me, in Proconnesus, and wrote the poem called by the Greeks The Arimaspeia, after which he disappeared a second time. This is the tale current in the two cities above-mentioned. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristeas What? Were you not aware that these myths aren't even close to the same claims, or did you deliberately try to decieve me?

what you left part of wiki part out of the 240 years later which he has been traveling with Apollo as a sacred raven....yup seems like you misssed that part, dead, resurrected and ascension with Apollo....yup again meets the criteria even if you like to ignore it, is it exactly the same as jesus story nope, but you never claimed it had to be, and no stories will be exactly like jesus, just like every resurrection and ascension story are not exactly they same, they are meant to convoy a lesson.

Quote:

Eshmun- Eshmun (or Eshmoun, less accurately Esmun or Esmoun) was a Phoenician god of healing and the tutelary god of Sidon. This god was known at least from the Iron Age period at Sidon and was worshipped also in Tyre, Beirut, Cyprus, Sardinia, and in Carthage where the site of Eshmun's temple is now occupied by the chapel of Saint Louis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eshmun You have got to be kidding me! Why did you make me waste my time to look all that up? Wow! Regardless, this was pathetic. None of these are anything like the story of Jesus' life. And I'm not ignoring any of your statements.

Fuck dood seriously for someone that claims to do some research you really really fucking suck at it big time, let me show your ignorance on Eshmun

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Eshmun

The myth of Eshmun was related by the 6th century AD Syrian philosopher Damascius and 9th century AD Patriarch of Constantinople Photius. They recount that, a young man from Beirut, was hunting in the woods when Astarte saw him and was stricken by his beauty. She harassed him with her amorous pursuit until he emasculated himself with an axe and died. The grieving goddess revived Eshmun and transported him to the heavens where she made him into a uranic god.[nb 2][3]

This meets all your criteria, death, resurrection  and ascension to heaven.......what is your claim now? Oh that he wasn't a son of god?  Now I get it you want, you want and exact story like jesus, but that was NEVER PART OF THE CRITERIA. What you are doing is called moving the goal post, you make a demand and when it is met you change it....so please feel free to change it however the death, resurrection and ascension story of jesus is NOT unique. It has been told before many many times.

Quote:

You just are not comprehending my argument. That's why, to me, it appears that you are ignoring my questions. So please clarify: you arent saying the disciples were liars. Are you saying they really thought Jesus was God's son?

I am comprehending your argument, what your not comprehending is that the idea of death, resurrection and ascension to the afterlife/heaven is not a unique story. I am not saying that they believed it to be lies, although exaggerations in the stories are there, as with any legend or mythology, it makes the story more grandiose and pushes a lesson in the story or pushes an agenda or religious ideology. In this case that jesus is the messiah who is rejected by most of the jews as the messiah. His disciples may have believed him being the messiah, doesn't mean they were right. Much like the followers in Jonestown or the followers of heavens gate, or the followers of Falun gong who are tortured/killed by the chinese officials, I mean just because they believe in it doesn't make it true, people are willing to be tortured and killed for their beliefs, at no point does it make those beliefs actually true. So what is your point about the disciples and being tortured or killed?

wow, you helped me break the bloody forum formatting! Thanks, LC!

 

with a minor addendum that this thread is starting to bore.

Hey guise look at me I break teh formatting again wee woohoo isn't this megafunz??!!!

Sorry fellas. Y'all didn't really think you were going to get off that easily, did you? Why would I need to run off and make another account? Is there a limit to how many victory laps I can take?

Anyway, you are correct about me ignoring Ehrman's disbelief in the supernatural aspect of Christ's death. I admittingly ignored it for the same reason I ignored Tim Tebow's belief in the supernatural aspect of it, IT IS IRRELAVANT! Please, try to keep up. My central argument has been based on the 3 almost universally accepted facts among historians: 1. Jesus tomb was found empty 3 days after crucifixtion. 2. Several hundred people CLAIMED to have had appearences of the resurrected Jesus for the next 40 days. 3. The origin of the disciples belief was in the very place, at the very same time as all this. THAT'S IT. I have not quoted anyone based on their belief in the supernatural. Rather, all I have cited, Christian and skeptic, believe these 3 facts. Concordantly, my challenge is for someone to produce a PLAUSIBLE EXPLANATION of these 3 facts.

Back to this wild misconception, I will once again show you how all of your examples fail worse than a Jerry Sandusky day-care center. First, I want to address how pathetic your attempt to portray me as trying to ''nit pick'' the criteria is. There are only two, count them, TWO, common themes that need exist, RESURRECTION & ASCENTION. That's it! It always has been, as evident by the first line of your initial post listing these examples; ''Humans/heroes that were killed, resurrected AND ascend to the heavens''.

Adonis- The earliest stories of Adonis report no death or resurrection and the “resurrection” of Adonis is not recorded until after A.D. 150. [4] NEXT!

Osiris- Osiris was murdered and his body was then dismembered and scattered. Later, his body pieces were recovered and rejoined, and he was rejuvenated. Osiris then journeyed to the underworld, where he became the lord of the dead. He did NOT resurrect with a glorified body and walk with men on earth, as did Jesus. He was not alive again, as was Jesus, but was instead a “dead” god who never returned among the living. Bruce Metzger (Professor of New Testament Language and Literature, Emeritus, at Princeton Theological Seminary) comments:

“Whether this can be rightly called a resurrection is questionable...” (Bruce Metzger, _Historical and Literary Studies: Pagan, Jewish, and Christian_, pg. 21).

Professor Ronald Nash author of the informative book _The Gospels And The Greeks_ agrees with Metzger’s assessment and explains that “some writers go much too far and refer to Osiris’s resurrection.”[7] To this Professor Nash informs us that:

“Not every version of the myth has Osiris returning to life; in some he simply becomes king of the underworld.”[8]

Karl Widemann Professor of Egyptology at the University of Bonn. collaborates Nash’s assessment:

“Above all, the conceptions regarding the most important episode in the god’s existence, namely his resurrection, differed very widely, especially in the later texts.”[9]

Professor Nash captures the German scholar Gunter Wagner in one of these moments, Wagner writes:

“Osiris knew no resurrection, but was resuscitated to be a ruler of the Nether world.” [10]

To add insult to injury, the Egyptologist Wallis Budge (who is a *very* hostile source to Christianity) has this to say about Plutarch allusion:

"Unfortunately he does not say whether Osiris came in the form of a spirit, or in his natural body, which he had raised from the dead..."(Budge, Osiris And The Egyptian Resurrection, pg. 17).

Achilles- do I really have to address this?

Aristeas- I downloaded the 14 MB book where this is mentioned. There is NOTHING ABOUT NEITHER RESURRECTION NOR ASCENTION.

Eshmun- The Myth and Cult of Adonis

Adonis (Eshmun)

Adonis is a young fertility god, a comely youth beloved by Astarte, and represents death and rebirth in an oriental vegetation cult. He is also known as the agricultural divinity named Eshmun.

http://phoenicia.org/adonis.html

Already addressed this one. What else you got?

"In this book, they list ten steps in the course of human evolution, each of which is so improbable that before it would have occurred the sun would have ceased to be a main sequence star and would have burned up the earth. They estimate the probability of the evolution of the human genome by chance to be on the order of 4∧(360)^110,000, a number which is so huge that to call it astronomical would be a wild understatement. In other words, if evolution did occur, it would have been a miracle, so that evolution is actually evidence for the existence of God”-William Lane Craig


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 Jack, are those goalposts

 Jack, are those goalposts you're moving around heavy?

Oh, and I'll give you a plausible explanation AGAIN.

First, we must not assume that Jesus' resurrection and ascension are facts. There is no evidence for this.

Based on this lack of evidence (and yes that includes all those things written way after the fact that you claim are evidence) one can only assume that what you have is a story. It is a story that was believed strongly by many of its adherents (a notable exception being the creator of Christianity, Paul).

You have a storytelling species faced with things they don't understand. It's far more plausible that they'd make up stories of gods to explain them. It's definitely more plausible than a "real" God who's evil enough to mess with his creation while professing to love them.

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*Still waiting*

*Still waiting*

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jcgadfly wrote: Jack, are

jcgadfly wrote:

 Jack, are those goalposts you're moving around heavy?

Oh, and I'll give you a plausible explanation AGAIN.

First, we must not assume that Jesus' resurrection and ascension are facts. There is no evidence for this.

Based on this lack of evidence (and yes that includes all those things written way after the fact that you claim are evidence) one can only assume that what you have is a story. It is a story that was believed strongly by many of its adherents (a notable exception being the creator of Christianity, Paul).

You have a storytelling species faced with things they don't understand. It's far more plausible that they'd make up stories of gods to explain them. It's definitely more plausible than a "real" God who's evil enough to mess with his creation while professing to love them.

First off, WE ARE NOT ASSUMING HIS RESURRECTION AND ASCENTKON ARE FACTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What is wrong with some of you? I have not said anything about his resurrection or ascention being a fact! I said, almost all PROFESSIONAL HISTORIANS believe the 3 facts I mentioned are facts. So give a plausible explanation of those 3 facts, and PLEASE, don't mention anything supernatural, because there isn't anything supernatural about the facts I mentioned. The body could've been stolen, hallucination, magic, swoon theory etc. So, lets argue whichever ones you want to stand bye. Man-up.

"In this book, they list ten steps in the course of human evolution, each of which is so improbable that before it would have occurred the sun would have ceased to be a main sequence star and would have burned up the earth. They estimate the probability of the evolution of the human genome by chance to be on the order of 4∧(360)^110,000, a number which is so huge that to call it astronomical would be a wild understatement. In other words, if evolution did occur, it would have been a miracle, so that evolution is actually evidence for the existence of God”-William Lane Craig


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Vastet wrote:*Still

Vastet wrote:
*Still waiting*

For what? Which one of your moronic posts would you like me to address?

"In this book, they list ten steps in the course of human evolution, each of which is so improbable that before it would have occurred the sun would have ceased to be a main sequence star and would have burned up the earth. They estimate the probability of the evolution of the human genome by chance to be on the order of 4∧(360)^110,000, a number which is so huge that to call it astronomical would be a wild understatement. In other words, if evolution did occur, it would have been a miracle, so that evolution is actually evidence for the existence of God”-William Lane Craig


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jackspell wrote:jcgadfly

jackspell wrote:
jcgadfly wrote:

 Jack, are those goalposts you're moving around heavy?

Oh, and I'll give you a plausible explanation AGAIN.

First, we must not assume that Jesus' resurrection and ascension are facts. There is no evidence for this.

Based on this lack of evidence (and yes that includes all those things written way after the fact that you claim are evidence) one can only assume that what you have is a story. It is a story that was believed strongly by many of its adherents (a notable exception being the creator of Christianity, Paul).

You have a storytelling species faced with things they don't understand. It's far more plausible that they'd make up stories of gods to explain them. It's definitely more plausible than a "real" God who's evil enough to mess with his creation while professing to love them.

First off, WE ARE NOT ASSUMING HIS RESURRECTION AND ASCENTKON ARE FACTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What is wrong with some of you? I have not said anything about his resurrection or ascention being a fact! I said, almost all PROFESSIONAL HISTORIANS believe the 3 facts I mentioned are facts. So give a plausible explanation of those 3 facts, and PLEASE, don't mention anything supernatural, because there isn't anything supernatural about the facts I mentioned. The body could've been stolen, hallucination, magic, swoon theory etc. So, lets argue whichever ones you want to stand bye. Man-up.

First off your claim of "almost all professional historians believe the three facts I mentioned are facts" is bull. This is also where I got your claim that you believe the resurrection and ascension are facts - do you  not read what you post?

I did give a plausible explanation. Your "facts" aren't facts because they likely never happened. What did happen is a bunch of human storytellers who were trying to sell people on a god that their mentor (Paul) created put together a story combining mythology and research in the Old Testament.

No supernatural explanation required. It's also a lot more plausible than the theories you'd like to limit me to. You probably have well rehearsed apologetics for those theories. You seem to avoid the one I've brought to you repeatedly. Why? It seems you are the one who needs to man up and quit dodging me.

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Vastet
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jackspell wrote:Vastet

jackspell wrote:
Vastet wrote:
*Still waiting*

For what? Which one of your moronic posts would you like me to address?

If you could address any of them you would have by now. I'm just pouring salt in the gaping wound that is you, for everyone else to see how much of an idiot and liar you are. And I'm never going to stop.

Unless perhaps you can refute me. But we all know you can't.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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So yet again you move the

So yet again you move the goal posts, I provide one example, well 2, osiris is an example, there may be disputes but then again there are disputes in regards to jesus and his resurrection (check out the gnostic stance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resurrection_of_Jesus#Gnostics ) as well there are egyptian scholars that agree that Osiris was ressurected, you just mentioned a few the disagree, in the end I can as well present people that agree he was resurrected, such as Marvin Mayer that states "Marvin Mayer notes that some scholars regard the idea of dying and rising deities in the mystery religions as being fanciful but suggests this may be motivated by apologetic concerns, attempting to keep Christ's resurrection as a unique event" or Sir James Frazer who states "In the resurrection of Osiris the Egyptians saw the pledge of a life everlasting for themselves beyond the grave." I mean in the end there you go, it meets your criteria, as such you can find people who disagree but that doesn't mean shit, I have met your criteria.

As for Eshmun if you bothered to read what I stated, again it meets your criteria, resurrection and ascension http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Eshmun as the story is stated there is not about adonis at all, if you bothered to read anything you would see that, however I will state it again for you. The myth of Eshmun was related by the 6th century AD Syrian philosopher Damascius and 9th century AD Patriarch of Constantinople Photius. They recount that Eshmun, a young man from Beirut, was hunting in the woods when Astarte saw him and was stricken by his beauty. She harassed him with her amorous pursuit until he emasculated himself with an axe and died. The grieving goddess revived Eshmun and transported him to the heavens where she made him into a uranic god.[nb 2][3]

So there you go, death, resurrection and ascension, it may however not meet your criteria as I am expecting you to move the goal post again. If we are following the definition of resurrection which is the Act of rising from the dead or returing to life. The story of Eshmun above meets your criteria and ascending to the heavens....yup he does so...what is the problem with that story again?

Now as for biblical scholars you so lie on that, they don't all agree, there is even disputes about the empty tomb and that has been pointed out already, as for the HUNDREDS that saw jesus, again that is a lie and not all biblical scholars agree on that part either since only Paul states that hundreds saw him, the others gospels don't. Here James Keller states "All we have is other people's accounts of what the eyewitnesses purportedly saw, and these accounts are typically sketchy and were written many years later. Thus, the historian who wants to understand what the resurrection event was must use later, sketchy, second-hand accounts of what the eyewitnesses saw, and from these accounts he must try to determine what the resurrection event was"

Paul never states any one person who saw jesus out of the hundreds of people that supposedly saw him, he never mentions 1 name. As you can see no, not all scholars agree, you lie, and please feel free to move the goal post, I have met you criteria.

 


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Vastet wrote:jackspell

Vastet wrote:
jackspell wrote:
Vastet wrote:
*Still waiting*
For what? Which one of your moronic posts would you like me to address?
If you could address any of them you would have by now. I'm just pouring salt in the gaping wound that is you, for everyone else to see how much of an idiot and liar you are. And I'm never going to stop. Unless perhaps you can refute me. But we all know you can't.

His god will punish you for attacking and pouring salt on the wounds of one of a god child. You shall suffer for eternity in a fire pit of lava, heathen.

 

 

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jcgadfly wrote:jackspell

jcgadfly wrote:

jackspell wrote:
jcgadfly wrote:

 Jack, are those goalposts you're moving around heavy?

Oh, and I'll give you a plausible explanation AGAIN.

First, we must not assume that Jesus' resurrection and ascension are facts. There is no evidence for this.

Based on this lack of evidence (and yes that includes all those things written way after the fact that you claim are evidence) one can only assume that what you have is a story. It is a story that was believed strongly by many of its adherents (a notable exception being the creator of Christianity, Paul).

You have a storytelling species faced with things they don't understand. It's far more plausible that they'd make up stories of gods to explain them. It's definitely more plausible than a "real" God who's evil enough to mess with his creation while professing to love them.

First off, WE ARE NOT ASSUMING HIS RESURRECTION AND ASCENTKON ARE FACTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What is wrong with some of you? I have not said anything about his resurrection or ascention being a fact! I said, almost all PROFESSIONAL HISTORIANS believe the 3 facts I mentioned are facts. So give a plausible explanation of those 3 facts, and PLEASE, don't mention anything supernatural, because there isn't anything supernatural about the facts I mentioned. The body could've been stolen, hallucination, magic, swoon theory etc. So, lets argue whichever ones you want to stand bye. Man-up.

First off your claim of "almost all professional historians believe the three facts I mentioned are facts" is bull. This is also where I got your claim that you believe the resurrection and ascension are facts - do you  not read what you post?

I did give a plausible explanation. Your "facts" aren't facts because they likely never happened. What did happen is a bunch of human storytellers who were trying to sell people on a god that their mentor (Paul) created put together a story combining mythology and research in the Old Testament.

No supernatural explanation required. It's also a lot more plausible than the theories you'd like to limit me to. You probably have well rehearsed apologetics for those theories. You seem to avoid the one I've brought to you repeatedly. Why? It seems you are the one who needs to man up and quit dodging me.

BINGO!

I would say not only is it more likely, but reality.

There should be no dispute that there were people who started Christianity, otherwise it wouldn't exist today. But the reality isn't that the fantastic claims were true, the reality is that a bunch of people or a person "Paul" got tired of the old ways, incorporated old stories and names from the prior Hebrews to start a new cult which merely became popular and successful through marketing.

I think one o the big historical events that helped garner sympathy for Christianity was when Nero used Christians as a scapegoat when Rome burned down. People fell for the empathy of the underdog and the oppressed and Christianity milked it at the time.

But there is absolutely not truth to magic babies being born without a second set of DNA. There is absolutely no truth to human flesh surviving rigor mortis. Paul merely concocted a super hero because like every generation, even up to today, people want their super hero to come during their life time.

All religions exist, not because the gods, myths, incantations, meditations, superstitions are credible, they all exist because they were successfully marketed. You can sell ice to an Eskimo if you are talented enough and they are gullible enough.

The ancient Egyptians falsely believed that the sun was a thinking being. For 3,000 years that meme was successful no matter how false it was. Placebo sugar pills are easy to sell to those who lack scrutiny.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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digitalbeachbum wrote:Vastet

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Vastet wrote:
jackspell wrote:
Vastet wrote:
*Still waiting*
For what? Which one of your moronic posts would you like me to address?
If you could address any of them you would have by now. I'm just pouring salt in the gaping wound that is you, for everyone else to see how much of an idiot and liar you are. And I'm never going to stop. Unless perhaps you can refute me. But we all know you can't.

His god will punish you for attacking and pouring salt on the wounds of one of a god child. You shall suffer for eternity in a fire pit of lava, heathen.

 

 

See, this is what pisses me off the most about the christian superman. Forget warnings and corrections, we'll just wait until you can no longer change your ways before levelling an eternal punishment based on the actions of less than a hundred years.
Why anyone would believe such a ridiculous notion, and believe the evil asshole is actually a good guy, is beyond me.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


jackspell
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jcgadfly wrote:jackspell

jcgadfly wrote:

jackspell wrote:
jcgadfly wrote:

 Jack, are those goalposts you're moving around heavy?

Oh, and I'll give you a plausible explanation AGAIN.

First, we must not assume that Jesus' resurrection and ascension are facts. There is no evidence for this.

Based on this lack of evidence (and yes that includes all those things written way after the fact that you claim are evidence) one can only assume that what you have is a story. It is a story that was believed strongly by many of its adherents (a notable exception being the creator of Christianity, Paul).

You have a storytelling species faced with things they don't understand. It's far more plausible that they'd make up stories of gods to explain them. It's definitely more plausible than a "real" God who's evil enough to mess with his creation while professing to love them.

First off, WE ARE NOT ASSUMING HIS RESURRECTION AND ASCENTKON ARE FACTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What is wrong with some of you? I have not said anything about his resurrection or ascention being a fact! I said, almost all PROFESSIONAL HISTORIANS believe the 3 facts I mentioned are facts. So give a plausible explanation of those 3 facts, and PLEASE, don't mention anything supernatural, because there isn't anything supernatural about the facts I mentioned. The body could've been stolen, hallucination, magic, swoon theory etc. So, lets argue whichever ones you want to stand bye. Man-up.

First off your claim of "almost all professional historians believe the three facts I mentioned are facts" is bull. This is also where I got your claim that you believe the resurrection and ascension are facts - do you  not read what you post?

I did give a plausible explanation. Your "facts" aren't facts because they likely never happened. What did happen is a bunch of human storytellers who were trying to sell people on a god that their mentor (Paul) created put together a story combining mythology and research in the Old Testament.

No supernatural explanation required. It's also a lot more plausible than the theories you'd like to limit me to. You probably have well rehearsed apologetics for those theories. You seem to avoid the one I've brought to you repeatedly. Why? It seems you are the one who needs to man up and quit dodging me.

I already provided the link to the poll that showed over 75% of thousands agreed with these 3 facts. Go get educated. So let me see if I understand you: you deny what thousands of PROFESSIONAL historians agree are facts? Remember, I'm not talking about ANYTHING SUPERNATURAL. Merely those 3 facts. Fair enough. Deny them. But tell me this, on what grounds is this more plausible? What is your profession or source that undermines these professionals that disagree with you? And one last question: do you deny anything that is written about Alexander the Great?

"In this book, they list ten steps in the course of human evolution, each of which is so improbable that before it would have occurred the sun would have ceased to be a main sequence star and would have burned up the earth. They estimate the probability of the evolution of the human genome by chance to be on the order of 4∧(360)^110,000, a number which is so huge that to call it astronomical would be a wild understatement. In other words, if evolution did occur, it would have been a miracle, so that evolution is actually evidence for the existence of God”-William Lane Craig


jackspell
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Vastet wrote:jackspell

Vastet wrote:
jackspell wrote:
Vastet wrote:
*Still waiting*
For what? Which one of your moronic posts would you like me to address?
If you could address any of them you would have by now. I'm just pouring salt in the gaping wound that is you, for everyone else to see how much of an idiot and liar you are. And I'm never going to stop. Unless perhaps you can refute me. But we all know you can't.

Tell me what you want me to respond to.

"In this book, they list ten steps in the course of human evolution, each of which is so improbable that before it would have occurred the sun would have ceased to be a main sequence star and would have burned up the earth. They estimate the probability of the evolution of the human genome by chance to be on the order of 4∧(360)^110,000, a number which is so huge that to call it astronomical would be a wild understatement. In other words, if evolution did occur, it would have been a miracle, so that evolution is actually evidence for the existence of God”-William Lane Craig