My view of life: Athiest/Thiest
Offline I would rather have a religious belief in a God and give complete devotion to that God through out my life than to believe in Atheism and to have denied the existence of God only to be surprised when I died that he actually did exist.
The way I see it in the worldview is there is a 50/50 chance that a God exists
If I was atheist and denied God, my only hope in life is that I will cease to exist and disappear. There is no other hope. Life is meaningless. However if I believe in God than I have hope of life after death. I have hope of not disappearing. I showed up on this planet somehow and will leave this planet somehow. Why should I deny the existence of God? Now on to which God. There are many religions that profess belief in God or many gods. I believe logically one God would have to be in charge and have complete authority, even if there were gods. So I choose to believe in the God with most authority whoever He is. Now on to salvation, can I achieve salvation on my own works, I think not. God is the one who created me and He must give me access to whatever place I go to after death, being He is of complete authority. If He says I am not worthy to go somewhere I cannot deny and prove otherwise. If He tells me the only way in is through “this” door that is where I must go. If He says I must do something before I enter, then that’s what I must do. But on my own I am not able to enter heaven or another realm. I do not have the authority. So I am down to needing access to that door. Some say works are the only way into that door, others say I can not do works but need to accept and believe in God’s son who granted me access. If I do works and do not believe in God’s son I can not enter. But if it was by works and not the belief in God’s son I would have believed in vain. So why not do works and belief? Nowhere have I found however that states works will get you into heaven. I belief Christianity must be the way to go then. Now, what place does works have in Christianity? Works justifies your place in heaven. If God give honor to those who do good things for him and for his glory then, why would I want a lower level? If I had a choice of status before entering into this world, do you want to be rich or poor? I would choose rich because I could always become poor. But I could not become rich as easy. The same in heaven if I have a choice of I higher level or lower level, I may not be able to obtain a higher level as easy as if I choose lower, but I’m sure at a high level I could move down. So my need and goal for this life must be to belief in God and what He/His son has done for me and do His will so I can have a higher position in heaven. Not to glorify me, but so I have options, and also I bring glory and pleasure to God, How great a feeling that must be to bring joy to the one who created you, to bring joy to the one who allows you to have the emotion of joy to understand what that is. This is life, this is my belief system. I would like to see someone come up with a better view on life, a better way to live and die. To have a relationship with God, what could be higher?
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Offline ProzacDeathWish, I would like to understand why you were a Christian for so long and not an atheist sooner. To what extent was your religious life. Did you just call yourself a Christian or did you genuinely search after and pray to God? Was your religion based on religious beliefs and systems, or on a relationship with God? Did you turn from your sins or knowingly continue a habit you knew was placed on your heart to stop. You can't have a relationship with God and still follow after the desires of your heart to please yourself, its either all about you or all about Him. Let me know what makes you believe the Christian God a sociopath? I never knew him.
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Offline The odds are not 50/50 especially if you are going to consider in believing in only 1 god that is the right god and actually exists. The odds are far far far lower, especially once you take into account the evidence that is presented that god exists is next to nil, more specifically your god exists. First which of the few million deities actually exxist, so if you want to consider that in the hindu religion there are 330 million gods/deities. so the odds of your god existing with the given evidence is already at 1 in 330 million, then consider all the other religions throughout time, it goes down even more.
Plus if you are going to use the christian bible as evidence for existence for your god, then the odds go down as we eliminate the evidence for god presented in the bible (which really is not much at all) so if we are going with these types of states the odds are more like .0009999 percent change your god specifically exists. I am always amazed how christians and well any other theists believe it's 50/50, it's not, never has been.
As for the hope and reason to exist, if god is the only reason you have, that is really really sad, I have never believed in god and yet I always have had hope and a reason to live, I love my life and enjoy it every day, I make sure my family and friends know I love them, I spend as much time with them, I talk to them, enjoy their presence and I always look forward to being with them. I enjoy watching my daughter grow, I enjoy the relationships I have. My reason for living is for myself, for my life, not for someone else, not for a god, especially for one that doesn't exist. God has never done anything I have never witness god do anything, I have however watched many people do great things, they may claim god did it, but I have never seen god do squat.
As for death, it will be no different than before I was born, I see no reason to believe it will be any different, there is no evidence for a soul/spirit, there is no evidence for an after-life. If you don't remember what happened before you were born, why would you believe there is something after this life is done.
As for what could be higher? A life lived for this life, to experience all this life has to offer, not to live a life waiting to see IF there is something after this one. No to enjoy this life, to experience everything that I can experience. As well to enjoy the company of those in my life, my family my friends. To enjoy our journey on this planet, for what little time we have together, to enjoy our experiences, to grow together for a brief moment in time, but in the end that has more meaning to me and is far better life than one living and worshipping a god that does not exist to go to a place that doesn't exist either. I live in reality not in a fantasy, hoping against hope that it might, might be true. That to me is a far better way of living.
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Offline Hypatia, What do you have to look forward to as an Atheist, you will die someday just like myself. And what happens you just don't exist anymore, right? Honestly what is the point of living then, for all these years man has wondered its purpose. I would rather have believed my whole life in vain than to not have believed at all. What if you were wrong and saw God after you died? Would you be shocked to see that? If I believe my whole life a lie of God's existence then fine, I would just not exist afterwards. "It also sounds like you just want to be a christian by default, because you can't think of any better religion. That's not much of a conviction." As for my conviction, it is how my life has changed after accepting Christ and turning from my past ways. There is a completeness inside and a fullness of life that I never had before. No other religion has offered this for me. Tell me why did you walk away from God? Did you just practice religion because of your parents or friends? Its not about religion, in fact I don't even like most Christians because they are religious, they just practice religion and not relationship, they give a bad name to all other Christians. It's not about church on Sunday, its not about the bible, its about a relationship with God. I have told you my convictions, what are yours? Why do you believe Atheism is the right way to go? And what is this freedom that you talk about that allows you to be happy and have a real life? You mention fear of punishment, I believe you are referring to hell, here is my view, hell is just the absence of God, knowing he exists and separated from him for eternity, that seems to me the greatest punishment.
I became one on my own years later, because I was reaching for the wrong answers. The rest of your question can be answered in recent posts
under my name-tonyjeffers. posts called "Hypatia's bloody murder" , "inherency" and "stories of overcoming religion". You can track
anyone's posts by clicking on their name and then "track". You should also look into the term "atheist". It's greatly mis-understood. We are
definitely not all alike even in our views.
And fyi I agree with Prozacdeathwish on his "God a sociopath" view. In fact I'm in the middle of an essay on the suject.
"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia
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Offline Did you just call yourself a Christian or did you genuinely search after and pray to God?
Here's a Bible passage that describes my experience in perfect detail..
Hebrews 6:4-6
"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the Heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance,
because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God™ all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."
Was your religion based on religious beliefs and systems, or on a relationship with God?
See above.
Did you turn from your sins or knowingly continue a habit you knew was placed on your heart to stop. You can't have a relationship with God and still follow after the desires of your heart to please yourself, its either all about you or all about Him.
Tell me, are you one of those Christians who believe in the immutability of salvation ( once saved always saved ) or are you one of those Christians who believe that you can lose your salvation and regain it ( through repentance ) over and over again ?
Let me know what makes you believe the Christian God a sociopath?
Do you believe that adulterers should be executed ? How about "stubborn and rebellious" children ? Would you take the infants of God's "enemies" and smash them against the rocks ? Would
you kill men, women and children ( because they were pagans ) if God told you to ? If not why not ? Have you even read the Old Testament ?
Here's one of my favorites:
Hosea 13:16 "The people of Samaria must bear their guilt because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women
ripped open."
There's a whole lot more like this but I've got better things to do than type out the whole freaking Bible for you.
I never knew him.
True, but not for the reasons you think.
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Offline ProzacDeathWish, I think it is possible to lose one's salvation. I also think the Old Law has passed away. You don't see Christians still sacrificing to their God, they are cutting open animals and burning them on the alter. Christ was the sacrifice and after his resurrection everything changed. I do understand why you would call God a sociopath now. I do not understand God or his ways. As for have I read the Bible, I am just beginning. I have finished the New Testament once, and have read Genesis through Psalms so far in the Old Testament. I think it is often hard to understand how God spoke to those in the past, and if people misinterpreted their thoughts for his voice. I don't understand why things occurred they way they did in the Old Testament. I am well aware of the gore and strange things in the Bible. I think the Old Testament describes the wrath of God and how jealous he is over us, and how we need to fear him.
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Offline I would like to thank everyone for their time and effort regarding my post. All of you have helped me to understand the atheist perspective on the world and life. You have not changed my view on life and I have not changed your view. However I do think that I have provided incite to my Christian faith and you all have provided incite for your belief of Atheism. I must say that there is more to the atheist belief system than I originally thought. I must commend you all because your belief system requires more faith. What brought me here was a video on You Tube, rather interesting to see both view points. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uvKH5qisgg, Whether or not Christopher Hitchens was "destroyed" or not during this debate, I think it is worth watching for any christian or atheist.
I would like to leave you all with a few of my personal experiences. I will never forget when I prayed to God out of the desire that he show himself to me, because I did doubt the existence of his being. I told him that chasing after my own desires in this world were meaningless if he did exist and that I needed to serve him, after asking that he show himself to me. I had a sensation of the greatest pleasure I had ever had, it was a feeling of "liquid love" and felt like electricity, every part of me felt right and good. I can't explain this, but to me this is my proof of personal contact from him. I don't care what your viewpoint is on my experience because I know what I felt and have never felt it since. I have been told it is the baptism of the holy spirit. All I know is that my whole life I have never found a pleasure greater. This is my testimony. But I would invite you all to test God, to just ask him to prove himself to you, he did for me. Take this seriously genuinely search after him for a period of time, if he doesn't prove himself to you feel free to take that as evidence of him not existing. Don't just take 5 min and say "Ok, God you have 5 min of my time, prove yourself to me." Genuinely search after him and I can guarantee you will find him. Again thank you all.
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Offline Ihadathought, read these verses of Jesus endorsing the Old Testament laws:
Matthew 5:17-20 17 “Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear until its purpose is achieved. 19 So if you ignore the least commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God’s laws and teaches them will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
20 “But I warn you—unless your righteousness is better than the righteousness of the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven!
(I quoted this from the New Living Translation, taken from BibleGateway.com)
And read these from Luke 16:16-17 16 “Until John the Baptist, the law of Moses and the messages of the prophets were your guides. But now the Good News of the Kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is eager to get in. 17 But that doesn’t mean that the law has lost its force. It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the smallest point of God’s law to be overturned. (NLT)
Jesus wants to keep the Torah in this verse, but still push his own agenda. In the oldest gospels Jesus clearly wanted his followers to obey the Torah, but by the time John was written Christianity had changed to the point where Jesus was considered to be totally divine and the Torah was abandoned. Talk about a contradiction. If you look through Luke you can see the author stitching together two denominations of Christianity: the Torah followers and the Jesus-is-totally-divine followers. One side Jewish, the other side Hellenized.
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Offline ProzacDeathWish, I think it is possible to lose one's salvation.
Yeah, well many Christian believe that ..and millions more don't.
I also think the Old Law has passed away.[
Except the Ten Commandments, right ?
You don't see Christians still sacrificing to their God, they are cutting open animals and burning them on the alter.
Well, I don't see Christians who demonstrate the signs of belief as referenced in Mark 16:17-18. either,
"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shal take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover"
As for have I read the Bible, I am just beginning.
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." Isaac Asimov.
Don't read too closely Ihadathought. I used to think that the Bible contained no contradictions until I began to examine the scriptures away from the guiding hands of fellow believers. I didn't lose my faith intentionally,either. I am an accidental atheist. My faith was something that was dear to me but I won't lie to myself just for the sake of emotional comfort like so many in the religious community are willing to do when faced with the harsh reality that their religion is just as false as the ones they reject.
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Offline I would like to leave you all with a few of my personal experiences. I will never forget when I prayed to God out of the desire that he show himself to me, because I did doubt the existence of his being. I told him that chasing after my own desires in this world were meaningless if he did exist and that I needed to serve him, after asking that he show himself to me. I had a sensation of the greatest pleasure I had ever had, it was a feeling of "liquid love" and felt like electricity, every part of me felt right and good. I can't explain this, but to me this is my proof of personal contact from him. I don't care what your viewpoint is on my experience because I know what I felt and have never felt it since. I have been told it is the baptism of the holy spirit. All I know is that my whole life I have never found a pleasure greater. This is my testimony.
Well, I'm glad you've found such pleasure, but it doesn't qualify as evidence for God -- your brain is wholly capable of producing those sensations. Explain how your amazing experience proves your deity, but a Muslim's amazing experience doesn't prove their deity. Explain how an atheist can have the same amazing experience.
(Hint: our brains are capable of producing amazing experiences.)
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Offline I must say that there is more to the atheist belief system than I originally thought. I must commend you all because your belief system requires more faith.
I would like to leave you all with a few of my personal experiences. I will never forget when I prayed to God out of the desire that he show himself to me, because I did doubt the existence of his being. I told him that chasing after my own desires in this world were meaningless if he did exist and that I needed to serve him, after asking that he show himself to me. I had a sensation of the greatest pleasure I had ever had, it was a feeling of "liquid love" and felt like electricity, every part of me felt right and good. I can't explain this, but to me this is my proof of personal contact from him. I don't care what your viewpoint is on my experience because I know what I felt and have never felt it since. I have been told it is the baptism of the holy spirit. All I know is that my whole life I have never found a pleasure greater. This is my testimony. But I would invite you all to test God, to just ask him to prove himself to you, he did for me. Take this seriously genuinely search after him for a period of time, if he doesn't prove himself to you feel free to take that as evidence of him not existing. Don't just take 5 min and say "Ok, God you have 5 min of my time, prove yourself to me." Genuinely search after him and I can guarantee you will find him. Again thank you all.
Not believing fantasies takes more faith than believing in fantasies? Reality takes no faith whatsoever, even worse, the default position of not believing something someone tells you requires ZERO faith, that's the thing atheist doesn't require faith at all, faith in the religious sense is believing in something is true or exists even if all the evidence to the contrary tells you otherwise, that is faith really in the religious sense, no matter what we tell you, you will ignore it and just continue believing what you want to believe, we can present evidence completely contrary to what you are stating and you most likely will continue to believe in god, that my friend is faith. I do not have faith in atheism, it is merely a default position of not believing. Nothing more nothing else. If you can provide evidence of the afterlife and heaven, go right ahead, but just because YOU believe it without an ounce of evidence doesn't mean I have to believe it, it means you have to provide the evidence. Testimony like yours means nothing to me, I cannot prove it true, much like I can't prove my friend with schizophrenia is hearing and seeing demons or gods, just because he is experiencing it doesn't mean it really is happening, much like your testimony, there is ZERO evidence to back up your claim. I don't need 5 minutes, I need real evidence, not feelings, not emotions, evidence. Something that if this god of yours actually exists should have and you should be able to provide it, other wise its no more than me asking you to believe that my invisible pink unicorn (ipu) actually exist, just you can't see it, hear it (unless you pray to it and he decides to respond back and only you can hear him) and no instruments can detect it.......the ipu is exactly the same as your god with the exact same amount of evidence for it existence, why not believe me that it exists?
[edit] spelling mistakes.
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Offline I would rather have a religious belief in a God and give complete devotion to that God through out my life than to believe in Atheism and to have denied the existence of God only to be surprised when I died that he actually did exist.
The way I see it in the worldview is there is a 50/50 chance that a God exists
If I was atheist and denied God, my only hope in life is that I will cease to exist and disappear. There is no other hope. Life is meaningless. However if I believe in God than I have hope of life after death. I have hope of not disappearing. I showed up on this planet somehow and will leave this planet somehow. Why should I deny the existence of God? Now on to which God. There are many religions that profess belief in God or many gods. I believe logically one God would have to be in charge and have complete authority, even if there were gods. So I choose to believe in the God with most authority whoever He is. Now on to salvation, can I achieve salvation on my own works, I think not. God is the one who created me and He must give me access to whatever place I go to after death, being He is of complete authority. If He says I am not worthy to go somewhere I cannot deny and prove otherwise. If He tells me the only way in is through “this” door that is where I must go. If He says I must do something before I enter, then that’s what I must do. But on my own I am not able to enter heaven or another realm. I do not have the authority. So I am down to needing access to that door. Some say works are the only way into that door, others say I can not do works but need to accept and believe in God’s son who granted me access. If I do works and do not believe in God’s son I can not enter. But if it was by works and not the belief in God’s son I would have believed in vain. So why not do works and belief? Nowhere have I found however that states works will get you into heaven. I belief Christianity must be the way to go then. Now, what place does works have in Christianity? Works justifies your place in heaven. If God give honor to those who do good things for him and for his glory then, why would I want a lower level? If I had a choice of status before entering into this world, do you want to be rich or poor? I would choose rich because I could always become poor. But I could not become rich as easy. The same in heaven if I have a choice of I higher level or lower level, I may not be able to obtain a higher level as easy as if I choose lower, but I’m sure at a high level I could move down. So my need and goal for this life must be to belief in God and what He/His son has done for me and do His will so I can have a higher position in heaven. Not to glorify me, but so I have options, and also I bring glory and pleasure to God, How great a feeling that must be to bring joy to the one who created you, to bring joy to the one who allows you to have the emotion of joy to understand what that is. This is life, this is my belief system. I would like to see someone come up with a better view on life, a better way to live and die. To have a relationship with God, what could be higher?
We cannot tell you how many countless times we run into this argument.
GO LOOK UP "Fallacy of Pascal's Wager".
It's basically hedging your bets, like you would at a casino. The problem with this mentality has a few issues.
1. What if you pick the wrong god? People around the world have thousands of sects of different religions and millions of individual interpretations of those sects.
2,Why would you want to bow to fear? Are you saying it is ok for you to emotionally bow to a bully who says "If you don't follow me, I'll kick your ass?
3. And what if there is no god? You have wasted your entire life on a fantasy. You I am sure reject other's god claims and accept them as mere fantasy. The only difference between you and I is that I have one less god than you do. Understand why you reject all other's claims and you'll understand why we are atheists.
3. And why would you want to thank such a god for such a crappy home full of disease, war, famine and crime, which has always existed in our species history. If anyone wants to claim this is an efficient god, they have to be out of their mind. If a god is all powerful, and they set up the game, they could set it up however they wanted, without all the suffering or drama? So unless we are mere lab rats, or toys, I'd say "god" as a concept is absurd, morally.
And further more.
"Running" is not a thing itself. My computer "runs". I "ran" a marathon. My car is "running". Those are all abstract words used to describe, not things, but end results of material processes.
"Thoughts" are much the same as "running". Thoughts require a material process, a brain, to occur. Much like it takes legs to move forward faster to "run". There is nothing outside biological evolution that "thinks".
Now, when you take all the above into account with Ocham's Razor, which says, "Out of many claimed guesses to answer a given problem, the one with the least baggage is the most likely answer".
NOW, which makes more sense to you? Which one begs more questions and which seems to be more of a reality?
1. Deities are real.
Or
2, Humans merely like the idea of a super hero, so they make them up and falsely believe them to be real.
I recommend you read Victor Stinger's "The New Atheism", and Dawkins "The God Delusion" and "Why People Believe Weird Things" Michael Shermer. To give you an idea where we are coming from.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
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Offline
I would rather have a religious belief in a God and give complete devotion to that God through out my life than to believe in Atheism and to have denied the existence of God only to be surprised when I died that he actually did exist.
The way I see it in the worldview is there is a 50/50 chance that a God exists
If I was atheist and denied God, my only hope in life is that I will cease to exist and disappear. There is no other hope. Life is meaningless. However if I believe in God than I have hope of life after death. I have hope of not disappearing. I showed up on this planet somehow and will leave this planet somehow. Why should I deny the existence of God? Now on to which God. There are many religions that profess belief in God or many gods. I believe logically one God would have to be in charge and have complete authority, even if there were gods. So I choose to believe in the God with most authority whoever He is. Now on to salvation, can I achieve salvation on my own works, I think not. God is the one who created me and He must give me access to whatever place I go to after death, being He is of complete authority. If He says I am not worthy to go somewhere I cannot deny and prove otherwise. If He tells me the only way in is through “this” door that is where I must go. If He says I must do something before I enter, then that’s what I must do. But on my own I am not able to enter heaven or another realm. I do not have the authority. So I am down to needing access to that door. Some say works are the only way into that door, others say I can not do works but need to accept and believe in God’s son who granted me access. If I do works and do not believe in God’s son I can not enter. But if it was by works and not the belief in God’s son I would have believed in vain. So why not do works and belief? Nowhere have I found however that states works will get you into heaven. I belief Christianity must be the way to go then. Now, what place does works have in Christianity? Works justifies your place in heaven. If God give honor to those who do good things for him and for his glory then, why would I want a lower level? If I had a choice of status before entering into this world, do you want to be rich or poor? I would choose rich because I could always become poor. But I could not become rich as easy. The same in heaven if I have a choice of I higher level or lower level, I may not be able to obtain a higher level as easy as if I choose lower, but I’m sure at a high level I could move down. So my need and goal for this life must be to belief in God and what He/His son has done for me and do His will so I can have a higher position in heaven. Not to glorify me, but so I have options, and also I bring glory and pleasure to God, How great a feeling that must be to bring joy to the one who created you, to bring joy to the one who allows you to have the emotion of joy to understand what that is. This is life, this is my belief system. I would like to see someone come up with a better view on life, a better way to live and die. To have a relationship with God, what could be higher?
lot of dross this is. I have to call you on your screen name. I'm not sure you've ever really had an original thought of your own. Your entire brain has been replaced by an evangelical christian tract. And this:
"My need and goal for this life must be to believe in god and what his son has done for me and do his will so I can have a higher position in heaven..."
Makes you sound like a self-obsessed, grovelling prat. If your hypothetical first cause wanted to have a conversation for his pleasure it would not be with a person like you.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
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Offline Makes you sound like a self-obsessed, grovelling prat. If your hypothetical first cause wanted to have a conversation for his pleasure it would not be with a person like you.
Wow, bitch-slapped !
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Offline This website supports all claims and evidence for God that Christianity and the Bible are true according to Science. Please look at the whole website and not just the article that is posted. http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/is_christianity_true.html
I will not be posting anymore on this blog form, I value all intelligent responses and knowledge that you all have presented to me. I know I don't have the greatest arguments with regard to Christianity or Theism and the proof of existence of God for that matter (aside from personal experiences), but I hope you can respect the thoughts I have brought to the table, considering I have only been a Christian for 2 years. I don't want to come across as "like a self-obsessed, grovelling prat." But, if you truly are looking for evidence of God, you will find it.
If it matters any in regards to how I have posted, to give you some background I am 21 years old and searched out God on my own and can testify to his existence personally, I hope you can someday experience what I have. (And I know that it sounds crazy but what I have experienced is as real as the computer I use before me. I just can't explain it, kind of like love you can't prove or disprove it, its something from the heart not the mind) My original posting was just my random thought on Theism/Atheism that occurred to me last night that I thought I would toss out there for opinions. I hope you enjoyed today's entertainment at the very least.
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Offline I would rather have a religious belief in a God and give complete devotion to that God through out my life than to believe in Atheism and to have denied the existence of God only to be surprised when I died that he actually did exist.
I would rather not have a religious belief in a God and give complete devotion to my life instead of something that I can't prove exists and have deprived me of the only life I know I get for sure. If when I die I find out I'm wrong and god is loving, surely he'll understand that he provided no logical proof of his existence and will applaud my intellect that he would no doubt be proud of.
I get one life that I know of, there's no way I'm wasting it lying to myself every day. I'll leave that waste of existence to the theists.
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Offline This website supports all claims and evidence for God that Christianity and the Bible are true according to Science. Please look at the whole website and not just the article that is posted. http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/is_christianity_true.html
I will not be posting anymore on this blog form, I value all intelligent responses and knowledge that you all have presented to me. I know I don't have the greatest arguments with regard to Christianity or Theism and the proof of existence of God for that matter (aside from personal experiences), but I hope you can respect the thoughts I have brought to the table, considering I have only been a Christian for 2 years. I don't want to come across as "like a self-obsessed, grovelling prat." But, if you truly are looking for evidence of God, you will find it.
If it matters any in regards to how I have posted, to give you some background I am 21 years old and searched out God on my own and can testify to his existence personally, I hope you can someday experience what I have. (And I know that it sounds crazy but what I have experienced is as real as the computer I use before me. I just can't explain it, kind of like love you can't prove or disprove it, its something from the heart not the mind) My original posting was just my random thought on Theism/Atheism that occurred to me last night that I thought I would toss out there for opinions. I hope you enjoyed today's entertainment at the very least.
You don't have to be scared of us, we wont rape your women or barbecue your kittens. You don't want to come back because looking in the mirror is uncomfortable for you. I'd say instead of cowering from a debate, stay and learn and don't be afraid of where it may take you. If you end up realizing you are wrong, then you get to correct a mistake. If we never questioned social norms, our species never would have left the caves.
And fyi, posting bias websites with self serving circular arguments wont work here. If a Muslim sent you a Muslim website arguing the science of the Koran, you wouldn't blindly become a Muslim.\
Please stay, at worst you will learn that atheists are not monsters and we are just as diverse as any other label.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
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Offline Hello Ihadathought,
Welcome to the forum, I'd like to introduce you to a good friend of mine. The Enter Key. It's located to the right center of your keyboard, right near the number pad. Enter key, meet Ihadathought, Ihadathought meet enter key. Don't be a stranger now.
Now that we got that out of the way, a few misconceptions that need to be pointed out. (Enter key says hi, and goes on to say "please use me sometime Ihadathought", awww that's nice)
Firstly, atheism is not a belief. It is simply not being a theist. Basically, you are a theist because you believe in at least one god. I am not a theist. To say that atheism is a belief is improper, incorrect and silly. (Enter key again)
Secondly, I'm sure you are aware of the fallacy of Pascal's wager. If you aren't then simply look within Christianity's sects itself. Not only are most religions mutually exclusives, their own sects are mutually exclusives. In fact, it seems that monotheism has that "if you're not with me, you're against me" mentality underlining its paradigm. You simply believing doesn't guarantee you a 50/50 chance of going to heaven, it's more like 1 in x, where x is all exclusive religions. Probably somewhere around 1 in 3023 (not an actual value, just used for demonstration purposes). My odds are about 1 in 3023+your religion, which is about 1 in 3024. So you see, that's just one of the reasons why it fails, you should read up on it. (Enter)
Thirdly, if a god chooses to throw people that do good deeds in hell simply because they didn't believe in something for which there is not a single fucking bit of evidence... WTF kind of fucked up shit is that? How can you even rationalize that shit... Mother fucking Teresa had doubts as mentioned in her diary, is she in hell chilling with Satan?... Seriously. That kind of ancient brainwash the masses and I can do whatever the hell I want because I believe attitude pisses me the hell off. (Enter)
If you take anything from my post, please let it be the use of Enter key. 
"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc
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Offline I would rather have a religious belief in a God and give complete devotion to that God through out my life than to believe in Atheism and to have denied the existence of God only to be surprised when I died that he actually did exist.
The way I see it in the worldview is there is a 50/50 chance that a God exists
If I was atheist and denied God, my only hope in life is that I will cease to exist and disappear. There is no other hope. Life is meaningless. However if I believe in God than I have hope of life after death. I have hope of not disappearing. I showed up on this planet somehow and will leave this planet somehow. Why should I deny the existence of God? Now on to which God. There are many religions that profess belief in God or many gods. I believe logically one God would have to be in charge and have complete authority, even if there were gods. So I choose to believe in the God with most authority whoever He is. Now on to salvation, can I achieve salvation on my own works, I think not. God is the one who created me and He must give me access to whatever place I go to after death, being He is of complete authority. If He says I am not worthy to go somewhere I cannot deny and prove otherwise. If He tells me the only way in is through “this” door that is where I must go. If He says I must do something before I enter, then that’s what I must do. But on my own I am not able to enter heaven or another realm. I do not have the authority. So I am down to needing access to that door. Some say works are the only way into that door, others say I can not do works but need to accept and believe in God’s son who granted me access. If I do works and do not believe in God’s son I can not enter. But if it was by works and not the belief in God’s son I would have believed in vain. So why not do works and belief? Nowhere have I found however that states works will get you into heaven. I belief Christianity must be the way to go then. Now, what place does works have in Christianity? Works justifies your place in heaven. If God give honor to those who do good things for him and for his glory then, why would I want a lower level? If I had a choice of status before entering into this world, do you want to be rich or poor? I would choose rich because I could always become poor. But I could not become rich as easy. The same in heaven if I have a choice of I higher level or lower level, I may not be able to obtain a higher level as easy as if I choose lower, but I’m sure at a high level I could move down. So my need and goal for this life must be to belief in God and what He/His son has done for me and do His will so I can have a higher position in heaven. Not to glorify me, but so I have options, and also I bring glory and pleasure to God, How great a feeling that must be to bring joy to the one who created you, to bring joy to the one who allows you to have the emotion of joy to understand what that is. This is life, this is my belief system. I would like to see someone come up with a better view on life, a better way to live and die. To have a relationship with God, what could be higher?
Pascal's wager eah. According to what I understand as Christianity, that's not good enough. But, not to worry, the final tally has yet to come. Yer safe for now, even if you kick the bucket, that way you died not knowing. You can and very likely will be forgiven under those circumstances. It's a condition as---- ignorance is bliss.
The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.
https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers
Knowledge trumps faith and I'm not a Theist
Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth
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Offline He's still wasting the only life he gets on a lie. What a waste of life.
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Offline Hey,
Pascal's dichtomony is a very very weak argument. Especially since most atheists hate God and actually are seared in their hearts towards God and are destined for hell.
in fact, most of these pagans would actually rather go to hell even if they in their front knew that God was real (though they do know He's real but supress and deny Romans 1:18). If you need help or advice you can email me.
Pascal's dichtomony doesn't work for them because they want hell over heaven. They crave wicked and they will dwell with the wicked very very soon for eternity.
Respectfully,
Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).
A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.
Respectfully,
Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).
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Offline I don't have to believe that a movie will last forever to enjoy watching it. So why should I need to believe that my life will last forever to enjoy living it?
Questions for Theists:
http://silverskeptic.blogspot.com/2011/03/consistent-standards.html
I'm a bit of a lurker. Every now and then I will come out of my cave with a flurry of activity. Then the Ph.D. program calls and I must fall back to the shadows.
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Offline I would rather have a religious belief in a God and give complete devotion to that God through out my life than to believe in Atheism and to have denied the existence of God only to be surprised when I died that he actually did exist.
If I was atheist and denied God, my only hope in life is that I will cease to exist and disappear. There is no other hope. Life is meaningless. However if I believe
I used to think this way until I realized that there was never a creator at all. It was all made up to cover up the fear of the unknown.
If there is a creator (out there somewhere) no one on this planet has ever interacted with them. No one has had divine inspirations from them. They have never visited our planet.
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Offline I would like to leave you all with a few of my personal experiences. I will never forget when I prayed to God out of the desire that he show himself to me, because I did doubt the existence of his being. I told him that chasing after my own desires in this world were meaningless if he did exist and that I needed to serve him, after asking that he show himself to me. I had a sensation of the greatest pleasure I had ever had, it was a feeling of "liquid love" and felt like electricity, every part of me felt right and good. I can't explain this, but to me this is my proof of personal contact from him. I don't care what your viewpoint is on my experience because I know what I felt and have never felt it since. I have been told it is the baptism of the holy spirit. All I know is that my whole life I have never found a pleasure greater. This is my testimony. But I would invite you all to test God, to just ask him to prove himself to you, he did for me. Take this seriously genuinely search after him for a period of time, if he doesn't prove himself to you feel free to take that as evidence of him not existing. Don't just take 5 min and say "Ok, God you have 5 min of my time, prove yourself to me." Genuinely search after him and I can guarantee you will find him. Again thank you all.
I'm sorry you had this experience.
When I was a little boy I wanted to heal people. I disliked seeing pain and suffering of others. So I prayed really hard to god and asked for the power to heal. I was honest. I was pure. I was full of good intent.
I sat in front of the television with my hands up as a preacher was saying some gibberish about getting the "holy spirit" to come visit each of us.
I felt a hot feeling in my hands and it ran down my arms in to my chest and all the way down to my feet. It was incredible. I knew god was touching me and giving me the power.
The first thing I did was go to a relative who was very ill. I grabbed there hands and told them god was going to heal them. I told them that their cancer would go away and they would be alright.
Needless to say, they still died from cancer.
I tried over and over to heal people but I couldn't understand why I had felt this "feeling" and not gained the ability to heal.
I later realized that the sensation I got was from holding my hands up over my head for so long. All the blood in my arms had drained down and the nerves were tingling in my fingers, arms and shoulders because my arms were tired.
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Offline Ihadathought wrote:I would like to see someone come up with a better view on life, a better way to live and die. To have a relationship with God, what could be higher?
I was a fundamentalist Protestant Christian for around 25 years so no one could accuse me of being closed minded about having an affinity toward religious beliefs, but I could never worship the Christian God again because he's a sociopath.
Either you don't form your sentences correctly or you need to rethink your position. From what I quote you as saying above you are a theist. God isn't a sociopath if he doesn't exist. So do you mean the alleged God of Christianity is a sociopath, or that you think God does exist and he is a sociopath?
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Offline I don't have to believe that a movie will last forever to enjoy watching it. So why should I need to believe that my life will last forever to enjoy living it?
I understand what in context you are saying, but that doesn't really necessitate atheistic inclination. Many people would rather not live forever in Jehovah God's system and will decline to do so, but that doesn't mean they don't believe in God. Just because you don't want to live forever doesn't mean that there is no Jehovah God of the Bible, and just because you do want to live forever doesn't imply that wishful thinking will make God real or put you in his favor.
Moses didn't get to step foot in the promised land. The demons have faith and yet shudder.
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Offline ProzacDeathWish wrote:Ihadathought wrote:I would like to see someone come up with a better view on life, a better way to live and die. To have a relationship with God, what could be higher?
I was a fundamentalist Protestant Christian for around 25 years so no one could accuse me of being closed minded about having an affinity toward religious beliefs, but I could never worship the Christian God again because he's a sociopath.
Either you don't form your sentences correctly or you need to rethink your position. From what I quote you as saying above you are a theist. God isn't a sociopath if he doesn't exist. So do you mean the alleged God of Christianity is a sociopath, or that you think God does exist and he is a sociopath?
Wow, do you really need me to clarify my meaning ? If it aids in your comprehension I will include the qualifier "alleged" or "as he is portrayed" in every future reference to your god so that you do not become confused.
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Make god a leprechaun for a day, nothing will change but your perspective.
You ask what could be better than having a relationship with God? For me is when I came out of that fog and realized that I had lost a
good portion of my life living under that delusion, but there was still time left to have a real life. I was so happy that it didn't take me
until old age to wake up. You say that you just showed up on this planet somehow? Why don't you remember anything before that?
Do you think when you are in Heaven you will remember this life? It also sounds like you just want to be a christian by default, because
you can't think of any better religion. That's not much of a conviction. I'm sorry to be the one to break it to you, but you didn't just show up
here, and when you die you are not just going to show up somewhere else like you are an eternal time-traveler. Living with rational views
of the world is a much better way to live. Come back to us before you wake up one day and realize you lived your entire life under a
delusion because someone told you to. You don't have to be embarrassed. Many, many, many of us fell pray to the brainwashing you have
been subjected to. And I do have hope regardless of how you see it. I have hope for you.
"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia
I was a fundamentalist Protestant Christian for around 25 years so no one could accuse me of being closed minded about having an affinity toward religious beliefs, but I could never worship the Christian God again because he's a sociopath.
Ihadathought, for all you know, if God exists, It is evil and will sentence theists to eternal damnation. Under this scenario it's better to be atheist. Or, in the Islamic version, Christians will go to hell. Are you sure you like those odds? Maybe all the religions are wrong, which I think they are, in which case the real God may not have revealed Itself yet. You're assuming that one of the current religions has got to be correct -- maybe future research will reveal the true nature of God, if there is one (there probably isn't).
Christianity is obsolete. The gospels and epistles are unreliable, their view of human nature is false, there's no evidence supporting the existence of deities in general or Yahweh in particular, and the morality is in dire need of being updated (turn to humanism for tips).
On that last parenthetical note, and I know you care more about faith than works, you can get morality outside the Bible. You don't have to ditch the entirety of morals in the Bible, but at least take a peak at some other religious and philosophical morals. You may be surprised.
====
I'll finish by addressing your second sentence. You think there is a 50/50 chance there is a God? I want to know how you came to that probability. It appears we're here because of luck, which is good enough for me. Maybe chance is a better word, because a lot of people aren't lucky and don't want to be here. I don't know if the evolution of humans was necessary or contingent, but I'm leaning toward contingent. Life in general probably exists abundantly in the universe, but only in microbial form, and if macroscopic, probably in the form of a mold or filmy substance. In this sense, I'm slightly leaning toward necessity for life in general to evolve, but at a minimum of the most basic forms. No deity required.
Hypatia, What do you have to look forward to as an Atheist, you will die someday just like myself. And what happens you just don't exist anymore, right? Honestly what is the point of living then, for all these years man has wondered its purpose. I would rather have believed my whole life in vain than to not have believed at all. What if you were wrong and saw God after you died? Would you be shocked to see that? If I believe my whole life a lie of God's existence then fine, I would just not exist afterwards. "It also sounds like you just want to be a christian by default, because you can't think of any better religion. That's not much of a conviction." As for my conviction, it is how my life has changed after accepting Christ and turning from my past ways. There is a completeness inside and a fullness of life that I never had before. No other religion has offered this for me. Tell me why did you walk away from God? Did you just practice religion because of your parents or friends? Its not about religion, in fact I don't even like most Christians because they are religious, they just practice religion and not relationship, they give a bad name to all other Christians. It's not about church on Sunday, its not about the bible, its about a relationship with God. I have told you my convictions, what are yours? Why do you believe Atheism is the right way to go? And what is this freedom that you talk about that allows you to be happy and have a real life? You mention fear of punishment, I believe you are referring to hell, here is my view, hell is just the absence of God, knowing he exists and separated from him for eternity, that seems to me the greatest punishment.
Philosophicus, What make you think that God wants to send people to hell? Hell is just eternal separation from God, there could be fire and brimstone, but my opinion hell is it would be more of an eternal heartbreak and torture of knowing you live forever in a place of nothingness and separation from him. In terms of Islam being the right way to go then "Christians would go to hell" Islam believes that if you do good things on this earth you have a chance of getting into heaven, its not
guaranteed
for them. So my chances of getting to heaven, through Islam belief, anyway is slim unless I perform a Jihad. Maybe all religions have some truth and some corruption. "I know you care more about faith than works, you can get morality outside the Bible." I just simply believe there is nothing that I can do to earn my way into heaven, I'm not worthy. That is why works wont get me in. In terms of morality, why do we have morality? Is it a human concept that allows us to take care of our kind and allow humans to thrive with one another? Than can't my morality differ from one person's. Why do we seem to have the same moral laws? In terms of a 50/50 chance of Gods existence, it's either he exists or doesn't right? "We are here because of luck" what is luck or chance? how could all you see, and the complexity just come from thin air? I don't deny evolution, but why don't we have fish walking coming on land today, why don't we see the middle stages of humans currently in between primate and human stage? Last, why isn't there life elsewhere in the universe? If we just happen to have the right conditions on earth, that's amazing, but surely we aren't the only planet with life. But what if we are, wouldn't that prove to be amazing that we as humans are the only life in the universe? "Christianity is obsolete. The gospels and epistles are unreliable, their view of human nature is false, there's no evidence supporting the existence of deities in general or Yahweh in particular, and the morality is in dire need of being updated (turn to humanism for tips). " I would like to see evidence that proves the absence of God. What if God is in a different dimension than we are? The computer you use to type your reply on was created, and yet our bodies are even more complex then that. Our DNA contains 3 billion lines of code, I'd like to see that compared to the code in your operating system. "In this sense, I'm slightly leaning toward necessity for life in general to evolve, but at a minimum of the most basic forms. No deity required." what is life? and where did it come from?
I look forward to becoming non-existent once again. After having experienced God's "gift" of life I much prefer being extinct.
Yes.
So you're life is meaningless without Christianity ? You need religion to give you purpose ?
So what ?
What if you were wrong and saw Allah after you died ? Would you be shocked to see that ?
But you would have wasted the present looking for an eternity that never showed up. So you even wasted the here and now. How foolish to waste your life chasing rainbows.
Muslims and Hindus have "convictions" too. Should I believe them also ?
Wow, the "It's not a religion, it's a relationship" phrase. Very impressive.