The Freedom to Lie

Beyond Saving
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The Freedom to Lie

 Since the 1st Amendment has been the topic of conversation recently I thought I would throw this out there. There is a case that was argued before SCOTUS last week United States vs. Alvarez where a dipshit violated the "Stolen Valor Act" which makes it a crime to falsely claim to have earned a military medal. Alvarez worked for a water management agency and at a group meeting he rose to introduce himself and claimed to have served in the Marines for 25 years and was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor. Alvarez never spent one day in the military and was charged under the valor act threatened with 6-12 months in jail. 

 

A good summary of the case is available at http://www.scotusblog.com/?p=139036 or if you are truly nerdy the actual arguments are available at http://www.oyez.org/cases/2010-2019/2011/2011_11_210 

 

I think it is absolutely absurd to throw someone in jail for lying unless real harm has been caused and malicious intent can be demonstrated. It is an absolute outrage that the government even considers throwing an american in jail for a lie that doesn't cause any real harm to anyone. It is offensive, it is a really stupid thing to do and Alvarez should be ashamed unless he did this solely to press a supreme court case against a law he believes in unconstitutional in which case he should be praised as a patriot.

 

For the record, I didn't earn any medals for valor from the US military. Although I do have several Medals of Honor courtesy of Jane's because I was once a kick ass helicopter pilot. Fucking politicians, on our presidential ballot we should have an "undo" box that when checked repeals all laws signed by the previous president.  


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Hey Beyond

what a ridiculous waste of time and money. As dishonorable and tasteless as it was, I see no maliciousness or intent for financial gain on his part.

Perhaps not in this case, but words can be taken way out of context or just taken the wrong way.  This is especially true when they are written

in text.  I knew a guy who was a compulsive liar. I hate lies, but this guy just couldn't seem to help himself. Most of his lies didn't have any

purpose at all, not even to impress others. they would just pour out of his mouth. Some of them even seemed to be well-meaning. It was like

turret's syndrome but w lies instead of profanity.

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


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What about people that claim

What about people that claim they graduated from some prestigious university? Does it harm the university or it's graduates that spent time effort and money to graduate?

The government and others may have a case that his claim harms them in the same way. I agree this should not be a criminal matter, but perhaps he can be sued in civil court.

BTW, what I actually don't like is this whole business of honor and valor about war. They make war into some romantic/spiritual/supernatural/religious thing(AKA Bullshit). So the country and young men end up going into war for non-rational reasons. I think it's really the politicians using these men for their own purposes. But then war is old men talking and young men dieing.

 

 

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


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Beyond Saving wrote: Since

Beyond Saving wrote:

 Since the 1st Amendment has been the topic of conversation recently I thought I would throw this out there. There is a case that was argued before SCOTUS last week United States vs. Alvarez where a dipshit violated the "Stolen Valor Act" which makes it a crime to falsely claim to have earned a military medal. Alvarez worked for a water management agency and at a group meeting he rose to introduce himself and claimed to have served in the Marines for 25 years and was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor. Alvarez never spent one day in the military and was charged under the valor act threatened with 6-12 months in jail. 

 

A good summary of the case is available at http://www.scotusblog.com/?p=139036 or if you are truly nerdy the actual arguments are available at http://www.oyez.org/cases/2010-2019/2011/2011_11_210 

 

I think it is absolutely absurd to throw someone in jail for lying unless real harm has been caused and malicious intent can be demonstrated. It is an absolute outrage that the government even considers throwing an american in jail for a lie that doesn't cause any real harm to anyone. It is offensive, it is a really stupid thing to do and Alvarez should be ashamed unless he did this solely to press a supreme court case against a law he believes in unconstitutional in which case he should be praised as a patriot.

 

For the record, I didn't earn any medals for valor from the US military. Although I do have several Medals of Honor courtesy of Jane's because I was once a kick ass helicopter pilot. Fucking politicians, on our presidential ballot we should have an "undo" box that when checked repeals all laws signed by the previous president.  

It is in our evolution to lie, that part will never change, so the issue becomes, what damage does the lie do? If it has to go beyond a simple lie. Otherwise Larry Flint lying in parody about fucking Falwell's mother would not be legal.

I'd have to read the case further. If it lead to theft by deception then that is prosecutable. But no, I don't think someone should be arrested for merely lying. You also have tons of mentally ill people who say things they truly believe or fantasize about.

It is illegal already to pretend to be a cop or doctor when you are not. I haven't read this case so I cant really comment on it. But in theory a lie by itself alone should not be illegal.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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Brian37 wrote:It is in our

Brian37 wrote:

It is in our evolution to lie, that part will never change, so the issue becomes, what damage does the lie do? If it has to go beyond a simple lie. Otherwise Larry Flint lying in parody about fucking Falwell's mother would not be legal.

I'd have to read the case further. If it lead to theft by deception then that is prosecutable. But no, I don't think someone should be arrested for merely lying. You also have tons of mentally ill people who say things they truly believe or fantasize about.

It is illegal already to pretend to be a cop or doctor when you are not. I haven't read this case so I cant really comment on it. But in theory a lie by itself alone should not be illegal.

 

That is the weird thing about this case is that there appears to be no personal gain or expected personal gain from the lie other than perhaps respect or admiration from the audience which were a bunch of people he would probably never see again. Maybe he thought the lie would give him a better chance at hooking up with someone for a one night stand? You would think that the prosecutor would have exercised some discretion.

 

The ironic thing is that the only way I can think of where false claims to military service and medals would really benefit you personally would be in the case of a politician running for office. However, in the arguments the government's attorney made it clear that the law would not extend to a politician because that is political speech and protected by the 1st amendment. So politicians can lie about their medals but the dipshit in a bar trying to pick up a girl could go to jail for using the same words...WTF

 

 


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Beyond Saving wrote: Since

Beyond Saving wrote:

 Since the 1st Amendment has been the topic of conversation recently I thought I would throw this out there. There is a case that was argued before SCOTUS last week United States vs. Alvarez where a dipshit violated the "Stolen Valor Act" which makes it a crime to falsely claim to have earned a military medal. Alvarez worked for a water management agency and at a group meeting he rose to introduce himself and claimed to have served in the Marines for 25 years and was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor. Alvarez never spent one day in the military and was charged under the valor act threatened with 6-12 months in jail. 

 

A good summary of the case is available at http://www.scotusblog.com/?p=139036 or if you are truly nerdy the actual arguments are available at http://www.oyez.org/cases/2010-2019/2011/2011_11_210 

 

I think it is absolutely absurd to throw someone in jail for lying unless real harm has been caused and malicious intent can be demonstrated. It is an absolute outrage that the government even considers throwing an american in jail for a lie that doesn't cause any real harm to anyone. It is offensive, it is a really stupid thing to do and Alvarez should be ashamed unless he did this solely to press a supreme court case against a law he believes in unconstitutional in which case he should be praised as a patriot.

Yep. This is fucking retarded. This "law" should be unconstitutional. What they are saying is that lying about being in the military/medals/stuff is more important than lying about any thing else. Where do you draw the line? Some one says, "I'm a school teacher" or "I'm an actor", but they aren't either, so are you going to throw them in jail?

They should make a law that when corporations and politicians lie that they should go to jail. Now that would be a law I would support.

 

Free will is an illusion. People always choose the perceived path of greatest pleasure.

-Scott Adams


Brian37
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Beyond Saving wrote:Brian37

Beyond Saving wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

It is in our evolution to lie, that part will never change, so the issue becomes, what damage does the lie do? If it has to go beyond a simple lie. Otherwise Larry Flint lying in parody about fucking Falwell's mother would not be legal.

I'd have to read the case further. If it lead to theft by deception then that is prosecutable. But no, I don't think someone should be arrested for merely lying. You also have tons of mentally ill people who say things they truly believe or fantasize about.

It is illegal already to pretend to be a cop or doctor when you are not. I haven't read this case so I cant really comment on it. But in theory a lie by itself alone should not be illegal.

Beyond, you are not following the script. I am the communist and you are the heartless daddy warbucks, we are not allowed to agree on anything.

Again without actually knowing all the details I cant say. But on the face of what you say and what the story is reporting it really does sound stupid.

 

 

That is the weird thing about this case is that there appears to be no personal gain or expected personal gain from the lie other than perhaps respect or admiration from the audience which were a bunch of people he would probably never see again. Maybe he thought the lie would give him a better chance at hooking up with someone for a one night stand? You would think that the prosecutor would have exercised some discretion.

 

The ironic thing is that the only way I can think of where false claims to military service and medals would really benefit you personally would be in the case of a politician running for office. However, in the arguments the government's attorney made it clear that the law would not extend to a politician because that is political speech and protected by the 1st amendment. So politicians can lie about their medals but the dipshit in a bar trying to pick up a girl could go to jail for using the same words...WTF

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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Last Night Bono (the singer,

Last Night Bono (the singer, not the Transexual) and I were talking about this very thing, and people who misrepresent themselves are a REAL PROBLEM, and should be punished accordingly.... after what happened when Brad and Angelina invited us out for brunch (we had to re-schedule, because Marty Scorcese and Bobby DeNiro needed me to consult on thier latest film (they never makes a move without me)... and they were stuck with George and Stacey (Angie hates Stacey, but lets keep that between us)... we heard rumors that some NOBODY was spreading rumors about us to my good friends, Brad & George, and it might jeapordize my role in Oceans 14 (They are dying to have me, but I have several other important projects going on right now).... So my wife and I took the first Leer Jet to LA where we straightened this whole mess out. It was *such* a bother.


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Rich Woods wrote:Last Night

Rich Woods wrote:

Last Night Bono (the singer, not the Transexual) and I were talking about this very thing, and people who misrepresent themselves are a REAL PROBLEM, and should be punished accordingly.... after what happened when Brad and Angelina invited us out for brunch (we had to re-schedule, because Marty Scorcese and Bobby DeNiro needed me to consult on thier latest film (they never makes a move without me)... and they were stuck with George and Stacey (Angie hates Stacey, but lets keep that between us)... we heard rumors that some NOBODY was spreading rumors about us to my good friends, Brad & George, and it might jeapordize my role in Oceans 14 (They are dying to have me, but I have several other important projects going on right now).... So my wife and I took the first Leer Jet to LA where we straightened this whole mess out. It was *such* a bother.

 

 

 

                    Rich you should come around more often it is your kind of honesty that we need more of from the other atheists,  why can only theists be has honest has you,  and when is your show comeing back on line?

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We'll be back this month  

We'll be back this month Smiling

 


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Good. False advertisement

Good. False advertisement has become a staple of American society. Bloody well about time some bullshitters got jailed. Only about a hundred million more to go. Starting with everyone in the last 6+ administrations.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.