Jesus' magic show

tonyjeffers
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Jesus' magic show

The question of why jesus only chooses some people comes up often. Matthew 11:27-"...and no one knows the father except the Son

and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him." Christians will usually direct you to Matthew 13:24-37 which basically says I am

the bad seed. Then the endless circle of god's omniscience and our free will argument comes in.  Well, I've noticed the argument

doesn't always make it to the "pearls before swine" theory. I am still in the camp with those who think that jesus was probably

a real human and the rest is a farce, and I admit it's because I haven't dug deep enough on that particular subject. So, if you would, my fellow

atheists assume he existed for a moment.  If you are like me and you think of Jesus as any other con-man, you notice little underhanded

tricks and cop-outs.  The biggest cop-out I've heard is Matthew 13:53-58. Jesus comes to Hometown. They said "Isn't this the carpenters son?

(inferring that he was just an average Joe). And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith." He split because they all knew he was just

a man. Some tricks are really neat to kids,

but you know you are not gonna pull it off to a grown man with any sense. I think jesus knew exactly what he was doing and was very selective as to whom

and where he put up his sideshow. Even though the bible is irrational, ya' gotta give it to 'em. They have successfully pulled off the biggest hoax ever.

And their  main character is a con-artist. If you think of humans as a whole, we're not as smart as we think we are. I've been told I'm a bit of a misanthrope,

but I sincerely hope man overcomes this bullshit.

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


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tonyjeffers wrote:The

tonyjeffers wrote:

The question of why jesus only chooses some people comes up often. Matthew 11:27-"...and no one knows the father except the Son

and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him." Christians will usually direct you to Matthew 13:24-37 which basically says I am

the bad seed. Then the endless circle of god's omniscience and our free will argument comes in.  Well, I've noticed the argument

doesn't always make it to the "pearls before swine" theory. I am still in the camp with those who think that jesus was probably

a real human and the rest is a farce, and I admit it's because I haven't dug deep enough on that particular subject. So, if you would, my fellow

atheists assume he existed for a moment.  If you are like me and you think of Jesus as any other con-man, you notice little underhanded

tricks and cop-outs.  The biggest cop-out I've heard is Matthew 13:53-58. Jesus comes to Hometown. They said "Isn't this the carpenters son?

(inferring that he was just an average Joe). And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith." He split because they all knew he was just

a man. Some tricks are really neat to kids,

but you know you are not gonna pull it off to a grown man with any sense. I think jesus knew exactly what he was doing and was very selective as to whom

and where he put up his sideshow. Even though the bible is irrational, ya' gotta give it to 'em. They have successfully pulled off the biggest hoax ever.

And their  main character is a con-artist. If you think of humans as a whole, we're not as smart as we think we are. I've been told I'm a bit of a misanthrope,

but I sincerely hope man overcomes this bullshit.

I think at best we can improve to the point as a species that superstition can be kept at bay, but it is part of our evolution.

It literally comes from life's evolutionary trait of having to make quick decisions to survive. The antelope on the African plain doesn't have time to think, much less a human brain, to think if the tall grass is being moved by the wind, or if it is a lion stalking them.  We did not evolve to have scrutiny as our default, we did evolve to socialize even if we are socializing around a sugar pill.

Science and technology is a recent thing as compared to 500,000 years of mostly ignorance. Evolution only requires getting to the point of reproduction, it doesn't require one to have facts.  You are always going to have a ratio of credulity and superstition in any population.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Jeffrick
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Tony

                      I still have no reason to believe jesus was a real person.  But I will cite a line from George Carlin; "If you think the average American is stupied, remember half the population is even dumber then he is." .    Yes all religions are a con or has Mark Twain put it.  "Religion is believing something you know aint so".  I always wonder what the church people makeing money off the con would be doing without religion.

 

"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."

VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"

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Carlin

Jeffrick wrote:

                      I still have no reason to believe jesus was a real person.  But I will cite a line from George Carlin; "If you think the average American is stupied, remember half the population is even dumber then he is." .    Yes all religions are a con or has Mark Twain put it.  "Religion is believing something you know aint so".  I always wonder what the church people makeing money off the con would be doing without religion.

 

That's a great line Jeffrick. I thought I knew all his lines. You wanna hear something really stupid. Last night on Facebook a friend of mine

posted a picture of a sidewalk outside of a courthouse in Kansas.  It was an open-sided prayer booth with a fold down kneeling pad and a small shelf

to put your elbows on. It had 2 step instructions on how to fold down the kneeler and pray.  My only real shock was that it was not coin operated.

It boggles the mind.

 

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


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How the Jesus became a Legend

Once upon a time in a small village in 1st Century Judea in the local market a local had a new model of an olive press he was trying to sell. He came up with this:
"You know how that the olive pits and skins are always getting into the oil and have to be strained. My new press is so superior it has no need for that."


"IT'S A MIRACLE." He screams loudly, gathering a huge crowd.


"YES, IT'S A MIRACLE" he again screams.


Customers line up 10 deep to buy his olive press.


Meanwhile far back in the crowd a desert prophet was praying over a lame man.

Suddenly over his prayers the loud voice of the Olive press hawker is heard, "IT'S A MIRACLE"
Other people even farther back take this to mean the lame man can now walk.
Benjamin from Damascus heard this and took it to mean the disheveled prophet had healed the lame man. Though he never did see him rise, he thought he had.


He leaves the village and heads out down the road to travel towards his home in Damascus. That night he lodges in a tavern where over many goblets of wine he recounts the miracle he thought he had seen in the marketplace of Capernaum.
He of course embellishes the story somewhat giving himself a role. He tells the others at his table that a lame and blind man were both sitting by the town gates and he took them both to this desert healer prophet he knew about. The healer prayed over them for a short time and suddenly the lame man was dancing about the market. The blind man suddenly could see and was running about singing praise to God.


Levi was sitting at another table and overheard this story. Levi heads out to his home in Jeezreel. When Levi gets home he has a few goblets of wine with his neighbor and recounts the story but of course adds a bit to it as well. He said a group of lepers, a blind man and a lame man were all sitting by the town gate in a village and this desert prophet came along and healed them all. His neighbor Joab said, yes I think I hear of this guy, I think he's called Jesus.


Next thing you know this spreads throughout all of the markets and lodges throughout Judea. There is a prophet called Jesus that heals by just waving his hands over you.

Sooner or later this gets to a carpenter who had been associating with John the baptist. Not missing a beat, he claims yes it was me.

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

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I like JPS's version.

                                           That should be in scripture.  It makes a lot more sense then anything else there.  It reads like an Aesop fable. I like telling true believers that Aesop had better morals then the bible. It pisses them off.

 

"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."

VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"

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 I find it perfectly

 I find it perfectly plausible that Jesus was simply a very talented street magician. Most of his "miracles" are fairly simple to do with sleight of hand skills and a willing stooge or two. It actually would be pretty entertaining if a magician attempted to recreate every miracle using technology that existed at that time. I imagine walking on water would be the most difficult to recreate without resorting to plexiglass, but if you can control the perspective of the witnesses even that might be possible. Turning water into wine, Of course, it is equally likely that most of the stories are flat out false. 

 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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No wuz

 

Beyond Saving wrote:

I imagine walking on water would be the most difficult to recreate

 

sand banks with two inches of water over them...

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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...

Beyond Saving wrote:

 I find it perfectly plausible that Jesus was simply a very talented street magician. Most of his "miracles" are fairly simple to do with sleight of hand skills and a willing stooge or two. It actually would be pretty entertaining if a magician attempted to recreate every miracle using technology that existed at that time. I imagine walking on water would be the most difficult to recreate without resorting to plexiglass, but if you can control the perspective of the witnesses even that might be possible. Turning water into wine, Of course, it is equally likely that most of the stories are flat out false.  

There was a Christian illusionist on National Geographic Channel exploring the possibility that Jesus was just a street magician fooling people.  He went through various miracles, including walking on water, seeing if he could recreate a plausible scenario.  I think it was on Naked Science (an awesome show on National Geographic that I recommend).  I don't remember how it ended, but he probably concluded that Jesus was divine (no surprise there) and that he couldn't have been fooling people. 

He was a typical cool Christian -- the subtext being "Hey, look at me!  Christians can be cool too.  Just convert to Jesus and you can be cool like me.  I'm also more moral than you."  I'm not saying I'm a cool person, but the cool Christians annoy me sometimes; I think it's because of the appeal to emotion.  I'm insulted that they think I'd fall for it.  It's like when they show me cool Christian rock music, like I'm supposed to convert on the spot because of the deluge of coolness.  Nope.


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 excellent post,

 excellent post, tonyjeffers. 

If you have faith and therefore giving up your rationality and skepticism you can be easily deceived.

suspension of disbelief = a fundamentalist

 

Couldn't all all-powerful god perform miracles despite humans belief /non-belief in him? I believe in the almighty Penn who did well this last week on Celebrity Apprentice. He really could have been a high powered preacher, but he had to be rational. 

 

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

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What is shameful above and

What is shameful above and beyond people's readiness to be deceived, is the belief that "magical" implies "good" -- as if one's ability to perform miracles automatically makes him worthy of respect and supplication.

Jim Jones convinced his adherents he had divine powers by appearing to pull organs out of living people.  Sai Baba was revered in India as a living god (up until the time he died), which he confirmed for his devotees by pulling trinkets seemingly out of thin air (even watches with the manufacturer's serial # -- it takes a real god to pull that off).

There just so happen to be embarrassingly simple sleight-of-hand methods to duplicate the aforementioned feats, but in the end, what difference does it make?  If Jim Jones actually had divine powers, would the Jonestown massacre be regarded as a blessed event instead of a tragedy?  If Sai Baba was a real Seiko-palming god, would his escapades of molestation (as ex-devotees have accused him of) rise suddenly above reproach?  

And suppose jesus' magic show was the real thing.  Would you want to follow him or his proxies simply on those grounds?

There are no theists on operating tables.

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Beyond Saving wrote:

 I find it perfectly plausible that Jesus was simply a very talented street magician. Most of his "miracles" are fairly simple to do with sleight of hand skills and a willing stooge or two. It actually would be pretty entertaining if a magician attempted to recreate every miracle using technology that existed at that time. I imagine walking on water would be the most difficult to recreate without resorting to plexiglass, but if you can control the perspective of the witnesses even that might be possible. Turning water into wine, Of course, it is equally likely that most of the stories are flat out false. 

Pardon but that one is trivial. He was only seen doing it by the people in the boat who are at best the tellers of the tale although they may not have told it at all if they existed.

A correspondant from Portugal once laid out the facts of the Fatima miracle of the dancing sun. There was no mention of it in any newspaper at the time. It first appeared years later in a publication in Bilboa. After the publication witnesses appeared. Most miracles do not have to be explained by any kind of trick.

The damning fact of the Jesus miracles is that they were required demonstrations at the time. Even emperors had done them. Look up Apollonius of Tyana for more examples. As the lyrics go, Did Mohamed move a mountain or was that just PR? Move a mountain for (literally) god's sake.

As the believers would taunt, what kind of miracle would convince an atheist? I don't know. Does not your god?

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml