What do you think about Abortion?

MsnBot 9.6
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What do you think about Abortion?

Greetings!

I hope I am posting this in the right forum, and also hoping this debate/question has not been answered 1000 times before. If i am please pardon me, I am new at this and also do not have very good 'online social skills' (limited to Halo and CoD online  ).

Anyway, I was wondering what differnt atheist's views were on abortion.  <blush>

My (current) view is that as soon as the embryo is formed it has all the infomation necessary to eventually become a complete human adult, and therefore an abortion would put an end to this life, which should be treated as an human, young though it may be.

You wouldn't kill a 2 year old RIGHT?   Then why kill an infant just a little younger?  Is there some 'stage' after conception/fertilisation that the embryo becomes a human?

 

Pardon my IQ,

MsnBot 9.6


Brian37
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MsnBot 9.6 wrote:Greetings!I

MsnBot 9.6 wrote:

Greetings!

I hope I am posting this in the right forum, and also hoping this debate/question has not been answered 1000 times before. If i am please pardon me, I am new at this and also do not have very good 'online social skills' (limited to Halo and CoD online  ).

Anyway, I was wondering what differnt atheist's views were on abortion.  <blush>

My (current) view is that as soon as the embryo is formed it has all the infomation necessary to eventually become a complete human adult, and therefore an abortion would put an end to this life, which should be treated as an human, young though it may be.

You wouldn't kill a 2 year old RIGHT?   Then why kill an infant just a little younger?  Is there some 'stage' after conception/fertilisation that the embryo becomes a human?

 

Pardon my IQ,

MsnBot 9.6

We are just as diverse on our views as any other labels. But for the most part, most atheist take a "hands off" the woman/girl's body, no matter what we as individuals might think.

I can't have a baby since I am a man, so as far as I am concerned, what right do I have, even if I disagree with why someone has one, to tell another person what to do with a body I don't own.

What pisses me off about the anti-abortion crowd, even outside the absurd religious claims for their position, what pisses me off is that people who are against it act like the person who chooses it got knocked up on purpose like they picked a date for the Homecoming dance, "Hey I got knocked up just so I could have an abortion" I FUCKING HATE THAT SHIT.

It is a pragmatic thing for me, and even the right wing has the same starting point I do. Keep it in your pants if you don't want a kid. Where we part is that these idiots sell marriage and emotion, and no fucking semblance of planning and teaching physical biology or cost of raising a baby. To them it is all " be fruitful and multiply" and "God said" and the "sanctity of marriage". Yet none of these idiots are willing to adopt the kids they want to force others to have.

I can barely afford the cat and dog I have and I freak out when they get sick, I don't want a kid. But some idiots would claim that is not natural, that there is something wrong with me. NO, life is a range, and they would do better not selling the religious crap and not selling marriage as an absolute, and simply teach kids to be themselves, educate them about how their bodies work. Teach them not to give into peer pressure. And teach them to PLAN if they do want a kid.

EDUCATION and planning, not absolutes. But even when it comes down to when a girl/woman decides they want one. I am not them and I do not have to live with their decisions.

 

 

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Hello Bot

I could go on forever about my pro-choice views but I'll try to keep it short. There of course is no definite

time that will ever be agreed on. My last debate on the time-line came down to the "God's will" aspect. One woman said that even if a

pregnancy is the result of  rape, the living embryo is still the result of God's will.  I asked her if the life is God's will and he is

all knowing, then didn't the circumstances leading up to the pregnancy(rape) have to be God's will.  Her only choice here is to

back-peddle and say that the rape was the will of the Devil and the life is the will of God, or to admit that God had nothing to

do with any of it, -so I thought anyway.  She stuck to the God's will theory and said that God works in mysterious ways and if rape was the way to that

child's life, then God had his reasons. As the discussion went on, she then admitted that if her own daughter was being gang-raped by

filthy criminals and there was a gun lying there, being the only way she could stop it from happening, she wouldn't even pick up the gun.

I personally do not want people this stupid walking around loose in our society. 

and don't sweat the "on-line IQ" thing. Some people think the best argument is to see how many big words they can fit in a sentence. 

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


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tonyjeffers wrote:I could go

tonyjeffers wrote:

I could go on forever about my pro-choice views but I'll try to keep it short. There of course is no definite

time that will ever be agreed on. My last debate on the time-line came down to the "God's will" aspect. One woman said that even if a

pregnancy is the result of  rape, the living embryo is still the result of God's will.  I asked her if the life is God's will and he is

all knowing, then didn't the circumstances leading up to the pregnancy(rape) have to be God's will.  Her only choice here is to

back-peddle and say that the rape was the will of the Devil and the life is the will of God, or to admit that God had nothing to

do with any of it, -so I thought anyway.  She stuck to the God's will theory and said that God works in mysterious ways and if rape was the way to that

child's life, then God had his reasons. As the discussion went on, she then admitted that if her own daughter was being gang-raped by

filthy criminals and there was a gun lying there, being the only way she could stop it from happening, she wouldn't even pick up the gun.

I personally do not want people this stupid walking around loose in our society. 

and don't sweat the "on-line IQ" thing. Some people think the best argument is to see how many big words they can fit in a sentence. 

 

  First, there is no consensus among atheists about any topic except their lack of belief in the supernatural.  We differ about almost everything and we are an extremely diverse group politically speaking, we range from Tea Party conservatives to those who advocate out and out socialism.  Stick around on this forum and you will see that we frequently tear into each other.  It is not a rare occurrence.

 

  My personal view is that abortion is a bad thing.  Abortion does terminate a life.   Abortion in rare cases might be necessary though to protect the life of the mother, or if a woman is raped and is impregnated against her will.  I believe abortion should remain legal but certainly abortion shouldn't be a substitute for other forms of modern birth control.  This isn't the Dark Ages and contraception is a well understood and easily available option.


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Abortion? It's always a

Abortion? It's always a risk, so the earlier it is done, the better. With the size of a fetus, the physical and psychologic consequences for the woman increase gradually and significantly. I'd consider 4-5 weeks as the safe time limit for abortion without second thought, after that the choice becomes a tougher one. Abortion is a really ugly kind of surgery (chopping the fetus apart etc.) and best prevented through education, contraception and... I heard that somewhere in U.S. teenagers might receive fleshlights or dildos as a part of sex ed and STD prevention, which to me sounds way too much enlightened and embarrassing to be true.

But... you ask about the baby? I'm not an expert on this, but I have a second, supernatural worldview handy. Let's say I know an authority on the supernatural and he says that between 4th and 5th week a soul starts getting interested in the fetus as a potential ticket for ride into the physical world. So after that the abortion gradually has greater karmic consequences. But how steeply the karmic curve increases and reaches the full murder rate, that I don't know.

Anyway, it's curious how the people who believe in immortal souls care the most about their temporary mortal vessels. 

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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MsnBot 9.6 wrote: Anyway, I

MsnBot 9.6 wrote:

Anyway, I was wondering what differnt atheist's views were on abortion.  <blush>

My view on abortion is that the decision is up to the person carrying the potential child.  I have the same view on masturbation.  If I choose to masturbate and kill 7 million potential babies, that's my prerogative.  

I'll take it a step further and say that my view is that too many unwanted babies (or babies that cant be properly cared for) are brought into this world based on religious societal pressure.  I believe religion is to blame for many of the worlds problems, but even more so in it's attempt to convince people that abortion is a sin.  I also believe religious people illustrate extreme stupidity with their anti-abortion views.  If their god was so concerned about babies being aborted he/she would've created a system in which each male had one super sperm and it reached an egg each time it was released.  Instead we have a system in which males release millions of potential lives each time they ejaculate, which can be stopped by condoms.  And if not stopped only one will reach an egg.  Christians look like moronic fools as they excuse their god for a system which kills trillions upon trillions of potential lives every day and create a less healthy stable society by making people believe that abortion is wrong.

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MsnBot 9.6 wrote:My

MsnBot 9.6 wrote:

My (current) view is that as soon as the embryo is formed it has all the infomation necessary to eventually become a complete human adult, and therefore an abortion would put an end to this life, which should be treated as an human, young though it may be.

Right now, scientist are trying to take the hair of a wooly Mamoth and create a clone. This means "all the information necessary is in there". http://news.softpedia.com/news/Mammoths-Could-be-Cloned-Starting-From-Their-Hair-66990.shtml

This means if your reasoning is consistent, you should go around collecting all the hair from barbershops and saving it for future cloning. Also get all the hair out of drain pipes, there are people trapped in there.

 

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


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In a perfect world maybe

In a perfect world maybe everyone would be prepared and willing to drop whatever they're  doing, pump out a baby and take care of it for the rest of their lives every time they fucked regardless of the circumstances. What do you think should happen to the embryos stored in IVF clinics?

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.

MsnBot 9.6 wrote:

Greetings!

I hope I am posting this in the right forum, and also hoping this debate/question has not been answered 1000 times before. If i am please pardon me, I am new at this and also do not have very good 'online social skills' (limited to Halo and CoD online  ).

Anyway, I was wondering what differnt atheist's views were on abortion.  <blush>

My (current) view is that as soon as the embryo is formed it has all the infomation necessary to eventually become a complete human adult, and therefore an abortion would put an end to this life, which should be treated as an human, young though it may be.

You wouldn't kill a 2 year old RIGHT?   Then why kill an infant just a little younger?  Is there some 'stage' after conception/fertilisation that the embryo becomes a human?

 

Pardon my IQ,

MsnBot 9.6

If you get passed the imbeciles who think a fetus comes from some god there is no problem. As with food crops, you plant three seeds and rip out two. All is life. There is no difference.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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MsnBot 9.6 wrote:Greetings!I

MsnBot 9.6 wrote:

Greetings!

I hope I am posting this in the right forum, and also hoping this debate/question has not been answered 1000 times before. If i am please pardon me, I am new at this and also do not have very good 'online social skills' (limited to Halo and CoD online  ).

Anyway, I was wondering what differnt atheist's views were on abortion.  <blush>

My (current) view is that as soon as the embryo is formed it has all the information necessary to eventually become a complete human adult, and therefore an abortion would put an end to this life, which should be treated as an human, young though it may be.

You wouldn't kill a 2 year old RIGHT?   Then why kill an infant just a little younger?  Is there some 'stage' after conception/fertilisation that the embryo becomes a human?

 

Pardon my IQ,

MsnBot 9.6

I support abortion on during specific circumstances. Using abortion for birth control is wrong to me, but terminating a pregnancy for other reason is legit.

When are you "not" human? If your brain is dead then you are no longer human. If you are really old or in a car accident (aka: a veggie) then is doctor assisted suicide legit? In my book it is.

They had a case down in Florida roughly six years ago, it was the Terri Schiavo trial. The lady was no longer functioning and the argument was did the husband have the right to pull the plug. The answer was, yes.

How is this different from abortion? It isn't. It's the same exact thing, except the age. So the question is, when does the brain start functioning as a human?

 

Free will is an illusion. People always choose the perceived path of greatest pleasure.

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...

MsnBot 9.6 wrote:

My (current) view is that as soon as the embryo is formed it has all the infomation necessary to eventually become a complete human adult, and therefore an abortion would put an end to this life, which should be treated as an human, young though it may be.

You wouldn't kill a 2 year old RIGHT?   Then why kill an infant just a little younger?  Is there some 'stage' after conception/fertilisation that the embryo becomes a human?

I'm in favor of abortion, but there are a few arguments from pro-abortionists that I don't like.  (I say "pro-abortionists" because I don't like the loaded terms "pro-choice" and "pro-life."  A purely descriptive term works for me, and promotes honesty in society.)  The end of the second trimester is when the nervous system develops sufficiently to be considered human, and a two year old has a more developed nervous system.  And, I know, the brain continues to develop well into a person's twenties on its own; even throughout the person's entire life if you include learning.

I don't like the pro-abortion argument that says "The fetus can be terminated if it can't sustain its own life, separate from its mother."  This logically includes sufficiently mentally and physically disabled children and adults -- they can't survive on their own.  If you want to go to the extreme, you can say that most people can't survive completely on their own, because we depend on each other for work, pay, love, information, etc.  But, it's not necessary to go that far.

I don't like the pro-abortion argument that says "A fetus living inside a woman's body can't make a decision on whether or not it wants to or should live, so the cognitively developed mother has the right to make the decision for the fetus."  This is nonsense, too.  It's not fair that a fetus, providing that it will develop relatively normal cognitive functions on its own, should have another person make that choice for it.  It's not like a Terry Shiavo case where it's a permanent vegetable.

The final pro-abortion argument I don't like is that the fetus is living inside its mother's body, so she can decide its fate.  This is similar to the previous argument, but slightly different.  This is the argument that says "It's the woman's body, so she gets to decide."  No, I don't think that's a good argument either.  The fetus is incapable of living outside the mother's body, and had no choice to not be there in the first place.  The fetus is a separate developing human lifeform, and not part of the woman's body.

But, I'm in favor of abortions because it's far too impractical to give every zygote as much concern as a two year old or an adult.  It's just a clump of cells with no sentience.  And I'm not going to give up on the enormous potential of stem cell research.  I don't want to sound cold-hearted, but the potential of stem cell research far outweighs the importance of whatever person the blastocyst most likely would have grown up into -- even my own blastocyst. 


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digitalbeachbum wrote:I

digitalbeachbum wrote:

I support abortion on during specific circumstances. Using abortion for birth control is wrong to me, but terminating a pregnancy for other reason is legit.

What do you think about intrauterine devices, like copper coils? I thought they're a very convenient form of contraception. But apparently, they're not prevention, the pregnancy starts but gets terminated a week after conception or so. This is why this method may make menstruations harder.

digitalbeachbum wrote:
 When are you "not" human? If your brain is dead then you are no longer human. If you are really old or in a car accident (aka: a veggie) then is doctor assisted suicide legit? In my book it is.

They had a case down in Florida roughly six years ago, it was the Terri Schiavo trial. The lady was no longer functioning and the argument was did the husband have the right to pull the plug. The answer was, yes.

The Native American Indians have a saying, when you realize you ride a dead horse, get off. 

digitalbeachbum wrote:
 How is this different from abortion? It isn't. It's the same exact thing, except the age. So the question is, when does the brain start functioning as a human?

You've got a point there, I haven't really thought of it that way.

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Quite simple-

MsnBot 9.6 wrote:

Greetings!

I hope I am posting this in the right forum, and also hoping this debate/question has not been answered 1000 times before. If i am please pardon me, I am new at this and also do not have very good 'online social skills' (limited to Halo and CoD online  ).

Anyway, I was wondering what differnt atheist's views were on abortion.  <blush>

My (current) view is that as soon as the embryo is formed it has all the infomation necessary to eventually become a complete human adult, and therefore an abortion would put an end to this life, which should be treated as an human, young though it may be.

You wouldn't kill a 2 year old RIGHT?   Then why kill an infant just a little younger?  Is there some 'stage' after conception/fertilisation that the embryo becomes a human?

 

Pardon my IQ,

MsnBot 9.6

We're the ones that created our own world. We want to decide everything.We live in the world as other creatures. With our intellectual abilities we can create reasons to pursue a particular idea or thing. Purpose can be momentary, such as a dog that's lying around with no purpose to be or do anything. But, when the dog gets hungry (something it cannot control) what has developed is a purpose to do and be something. The purpose it has encountered is satisfied by becoming a predator  to hunt something to eat. Four items have entered, need, hunger, predator and eat, which means a purpose has been created. We are in this same world, but having greater intellect we can then pursue without purpose of need. Instead of living naturally we can pursue pleasures. But, being that nature presents the pleasures we can reason to pursue but might not want the consequences. So, going further then the dog we now create the circumstance of consequence by over-pursuit. We don't really want to pay the price for pleasurable pursuits so we enact a remedy. Considering that we've accomplished our basic needs, food, shelter, winter heat, etc. But that leaves us with a lot of time on our hands, so now we can pursue other gratifications, such as affluence, and pleasures of all sorts, and even invent them. We spend more time and effort on pursuit of affluence upkeep and pleasure seeking then for anything else. If we don't want the consequences of sexual gratifications we find ways to negate the effects. If the negating effects fail we look for the final remedy. It's one's animalistic nature rather then the human nature that rules. From that, we find ourselves in all sorts of troubles. Abortion is merely relieving one's self of obligation. This is a product of one's animal characteristics. The intelligent animal is exactly that, and that may be worse then the dog, of which one's intellect is used to surpass, which is extended from the notion of human animal, of which there is no such thing. One is not the other.  Simple, ain't it.

 

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Luminon wrote:The Native

Luminon wrote:
The Native American Indians have a saying, when you realize you ride a dead horse, get off.

That's a good one.

Free will is an illusion. People always choose the perceived path of greatest pleasure.

-Scott Adams


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Is this about those two

Is this about those two idiot "bioethicists" from Austrailia?

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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MsnBot 9.6

MsnBot 9.6 wrote:
Greetings!

I hope I am posting this in the right forum, and also hoping this debate/question has not been answered 1000 times before. If i am please pardon me, I am new at this and also do not have very good 'online social skills' (limited to Halo and CoD online  ).

Anyway, I was wondering what differnt atheist's views were on abortion.  

My (current) view is that as soon as the embryo is formed it has all the infomation necessary to eventually become a complete human adult, and therefore an abortion would put an end to this life, which should be treated as an human, young though it may be.

You wouldn't kill a 2 year old RIGHT?   Then why kill an infant just a little younger?  Is there some 'stage' after conception/fertilisation that the embryo becomes a human?

 

Pardon my IQ,

MsnBot 9.6

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I don't have to be pro

I don't have to be pro choice or pro life in order to be pro safety.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/12/world/12abortion.html?_r=1

 

I think women who don't want to get pregnant should use birth control, and men who don't want to get women pregnant should use birth control, and then we can use abortion only to handle pregnancies that are life-threatening to the woman and pregnancies resulting from rape.  But since making abortions illegal only endangers women without protecting fetuses, it doesn't matter whether or not we should try to protect the fetuses because we can't (at least, not through abortion legislation).  We should instead strive to make sure people have access to birth control and don't have a bunch of people telling them they'll get torured if they use it.

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