Love

Jimenezj
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Love

If there is no purpose and reason in life for the atheist, then what role does Love play in one's life?
For example:
Marriage
Family
Friends
Neighbors
Personal

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


Jimenezj
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Teralek

Confusion causes division and therefore we must try to avoid it. When I am confused with scripture, I look harder for the truth. I do not want confusion but I do want the truth. For example,

If i am reading the old testament and do not understand a certain passage . I will look for the answer in the new testament using the same
Context. The same if I do not understand a passage in the new testament
, I will use the O.T for translation. The best commentaries come from the
O.T and the N.T.

I do read other commentaries , but only the ones from
Prominent theologians and scholars.

I read the king James, NIV and the new living translation.
And I compare them all, when it comes time for translation due to confusion. And of course I pray for understanding.

The question to you is, how far are you willing to go, to find your
answers ?

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


Teralek
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Jimenezj wrote:The question

Jimenezj wrote:
The question to you is, how far are you willing to go, to find your answers ?
 

All the way. Been there done that.

There is truth beyond the Bible, when you realize that you will find that the beauty of reality is much more worthy of a God that the petty things of kings and farmers and their harsh daily lifes.

The subtleness of the Universe is just mind boggling.

 

______________________________________________________________
"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies


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Jimenezj wrote:
If there is no purpose and reason in life for the atheist, then what role does Love play in one's life? For example: Marriage Family Friends Neighbors Personal

If you had a life would you be posting here?

If anyone loved you you would not have to fill your life with romantic delusions that religion is love.

Next tell us you are here because you love us and I will tell you I don't go that way.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Jimenezj wrote:
What kind of theist are you? I'm having a hard time Understanding your point of view. What category do you fall into ? The eternal and unifying existence of the Self or the eternal oblivion of the Self?

Perhaps the kind that says if atheists are right you will never know you are wrong.

 

 

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


A_Nony_Mouse
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Jimenezj wrote:
The bible says that God is Love.
 

When they were wandering in the desert your god said, "The snake bites continue until morale improves."

The wise Hebrews said, "Snake tastes a lot like chicken and there is more for the rest of us. Praise the lord."

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Jimenezj wrote:
The bible is the word of God.
 

The bible doesn't say that. Where did you get that idea?

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


Jean Chauvin
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Micky

Micky

So what is your background? Were you a so called "chrisitan" as a kid? were your parents hippies? What is your atheist testimony Micky?

I'm just curious. You seem to have anger in between your snarks. I don't mind snarks, but when i sense anger and maybe a little bitterness, i must stop and point it out.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).


Teralek
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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:Jimenezj

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Jimenezj wrote:
The bible says that God is Love.
 

When they were wandering in the desert your god said, "The snake bites continue until morale improves."

The wise Hebrews said, "Snake tastes a lot like chicken and there is more for the rest of us. Praise the lord."
 

I confess that this was the first kind of stuff that pulled me away from the Bible long ago... the Books of Kings is just plain obvious for anyone to see. It was written to support and legitimize the power of the kings of Israel. They were greedy and promiscuous. To support their evilness they made up stories that it was instead God that commanded those actions. After this I found out that the Bible is a collection of myths put together by Constantin and a group of priests decided by their own deluded and power thirsty minds that those words were God inspired...

I don't know why is it so hard for LOADS of people to see this when it's plain obvious... This is changing rapidly though...

______________________________________________________________
"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies


Jimenezj
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2 Timothy 3.16-17

he translated the Greek theopneustos as divinitus inspirata ("divinely breathed into"). (In English that passage reads: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God [theopneustos], and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


Teralek
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 "1Samuel said to Saul,


 

"1Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. 2This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’” - Endorsing Genocide

"10 And the congregation sent thither twelve thousand men of the valiantest, and commanded them, saying, Go and smite the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead with the edge of the sword, with the women and the children.
11 And this is the thing that ye shall do, Ye shall utterly destroy every male, and every woman that hath lain by man.
12 And they found among the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead four hundred young virgins, that had known no man by lying with any male: and they brought them unto the camp to Shiloh, which is in the land of Canaan."

...20 Therefore they commanded the children of Benjamin, saying, Go and lie in wait in the vineyards;
21 And see, and, behold, if the daughters of Shiloh come out to dance in dances, then come ye out of the vineyards, and catch you every man his wife of the daughters of Shiloh, and go to the land of Benjamin." - Mass raping

"9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." - WTF!

I can tell you one thing. I have no shread of doubt in my mind that there is more Love in me than the God that is portraited here in the Bible.

Don't come and tell me the story of why God sent Jesus to be killed, because that's the most insane story I have heard in my life.

 

 

______________________________________________________________
"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies


Jimenezj
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Teralek

You are not looking at the complete picture.
You are only seeing a part of the puzzle.
The Amalekites were worse than the Nazis.
Read the history of the Amalekites.
God is proclaiming Judgment on the Amalekites.

In simple words,

What goes around, comes around.

God creates and he also destroys.

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


Teralek
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Jimenezj wrote:You are not

Jimenezj wrote:
You are not looking at the complete picture.
Yes I am 

Jimenezj wrote:
You are only seeing a part of the puzzle.
You're the one who's solely looking at the Bible 

Jimenezj wrote:
The Amalekites were worse than the Nazis. Read the history of the Amalekites.
You were there that's how you know that... of course. War was common back then. Everyone did it. I guess by your standarts we should have killed all Germans after the WWII, women and children even their pets and farm animals...

Jimenezj wrote:
God is proclaiming Judgment on the Amalekites. In simple words, What goes around, comes around. God creates and he also destroys.
Exactly! this is why there is no shred of doubt in my mind that I have more Love in me than God.

______________________________________________________________
"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies


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Jean Chauvin wrote:
Micky

So what is your background? Were you a so called "chrisitan" as a kid? were your parents hippies? What is your atheist testimony Micky?

I'm just curious. You seem to have anger in between your snarks. I don't mind snarks, but when i sense anger and maybe a little bitterness, i must stop and point it out.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

The bible does NOT say it is the word of any god much less your god. Do you have a problem with that?

Any anger you might sense is simply believers misrepresenting their source material such as their bible. The anger is sort of only directed at expecting to get away with lying about their bible. It is insulting to see you folks try to get away with such obvious lies. It is disrespect not to come up with a high quality, hard to check lie. You deliberately insult my intelligence.

You are deliberately so obnoxious you make it impossible for people to agree with you. It is like the old "I will harden Pharaoh's heart" gimmick just to have an excuse for the plagues. You are posting for you own sick satisfaction in a manner to increase that sick satisfaction rather than to accomplish anything beyond yourself.

Are there any other questions?

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


A_Nony_Mouse
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Teralek wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Jimenezj wrote:
The bible says that God is Love.
 

When they were wandering in the desert your god said, "The snake bites continue until morale improves."

The wise Hebrews said, "Snake tastes a lot like chicken and there is more for the rest of us. Praise the lord."
 

I confess that this was the first kind of stuff that pulled me away from the Bible long ago... the Books of Kings is just plain obvious for anyone to see.

But it is the kind of thing that attracts believers. It tells you a lot about believers. Ask why.

Quote:
It was written to support and legitimize the power of the kings of Israel. They were greedy and promiscuous. To support their evilness they made up stories that it was instead God that commanded those actions.

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

Quote:
After this I found out that the Bible is a collection of myths put together by Constantin and a group of priests decided by their own deluded and power thirsty minds that those words were God inspired...

I don't know why is it so hard for LOADS of people to see this when it's plain obvious... This is changing rapidly though...

 

Now that you have asked why, gods never speak for themselves. They speak through people. The sociopathic personality type jumps at the chance be the spokesman who rules as a god by his claim to know the desires of that god. The more bloodthirsty their god the more bloodthirsty they can be because they speak for their god.

Even in the most pleasant of possible circumstances anyone with a backwards collar or white dickey or even just a cheap black linen suit is treated as special. Is it possible to think that was not part of the decision to choose the profession? A lit degree summa cum laude gets you nada.

Many years ago I worked with a guy who indulged in public pranks. He once got Arab head dress and was driven around Syracuse by another man in Navy uniform showing him the sights. Another of his pranks was the cheap linen suit and white dickey while flying.

People insisted on carrying his luggage. He was moved to 1st class by the stews. And people smiled when he said Bless You. He did nothing but wear the costume. How much better with divinity school teaching the details of the con? It is not the god. It is not the religion. It is the people who run the religion.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


A_Nony_Mouse
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Jimenezj wrote:
2 Timothy 3.16-17 he translated the Greek theopneustos as divinitus inspirata ("divinely breathed into&quotEye-wink. (In English that passage reads: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God [theopneustos], and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."

Should you ever come up with a statement within the books themselves saying "This Book is INSPIRED by YHWH" get back to me.

You rely upon a nonsense translation into Latin to get to a strained version in English to get to an unrelated principle. Pardon if I am not surprised.

The correct statement is, all that is writted has been inspired by the gods. In the Greek world this was embodied in the Muses and it referred to everything written which is what scripture means. That is the meaning in context of the times. There is nothing in the statement indicating a deviation from the obvious meaning in context.

There is no indication of any upper case Scripture much less an indication of a limitation to only scripture written about gods. Even if you try to force "about gods" into the meaning, it does not limit it to any particular god. Even should you try to narrow it down to the Septuagint Timothy is more or less contemporary to Josephus according to believers. Josephus wrote that Judeans had only 22 holy books and in Against Apion obviously did not take the Septuagint as authoritative or even credible as he contradicts it while defending the Judean Yahweh cult.

But do not let facts get in your way. You keep looking for that internal statement of inspired content so you can post something rational.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


A_Nony_Mouse
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Jimenezj wrote:
You are not looking at the complete picture. You are only seeing a part of the puzzle. The Amalekites were worse than the Nazis. Read the history of the Amalekites. God is proclaiming Judgment on the Amalekites. In simple words, What goes around, comes around. God creates and he also destroys.

What puzzle? It says what it says. It says the Israelites were worse than the Nazis as the Nazis spared the animals.

But for a fact we know the entire Exodus and everything connected with it is myth including Passove just what do you think you are talking about other than a tale of a bloodthirsty, malevolent god worthy of a speedy trial and a slow execution?

Because this is an invented story when it first appeared people knew it was an invented story. It was therefore adopted as a national mythos to justify any and all kinds barbaric, primitive mass murder.

But you know that.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


Jimenezj
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Timothy 3:16 It is very simple to understand.

English translation :All scripture is given by inspiration Of God.

Greek translation : All scripture is God breathed .

The bible only talks about one God called YHVH.
Genesis 1 In the bigining God created the heavens and the earth.

If you do not understand this simple translation then you are:

A. In denial
B. Ignorant
C. Or Afraid of the truth

Which one is it?

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


Jimenezj
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You don't have to answer, I know you are
Ignorant of scripture. I will hive you the reason why.

I said the bible us the word of God.

You said, Not true . The bible does not say that .

I gave you 2 Timothy 3:16 were it clearly says that :

English translation :All scripture is given by inspiration Of God.
The original Greek translation : All scripture is God breathed .
πᾶσα γραφὴ θεόπνευστος

I don't expect you to comprehend this, due to your ignorance .
Therefore farewell !

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


ProzacDeathWish
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Jimenezj wrote:You don't

Jimenezj wrote:
You don't have to answer, I know you are Ignorant of scripture. I will hive you the reason why. I said the bible us the word of God. You said, Not true . The bible does not say that . I gave you 2 Timothy 3:16 were it clearly says that : English translation :All scripture is given by inspiration Of God. The original Greek translation : All scripture is God breathed . πᾶσα γραφὴ θεόπνευστος I don't expect you to comprehend this, due to your ignorance . Therefore farewell !

 

     Fuck you.  Farewell.

www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/misanthropy

"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition." Rudyard Kipling


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Jimenezj wrote:
Timothy 3:16 It is very simple to understand. English translation :All scripture is given by inspiration Of God. Greek translation : All scripture is God breathed . The bible only talks about one God called YHVH. Genesis 1 In the bigining God created the heavens and the earth. If you do not understand this simple translation then you are: A. In denial B. Ignorant C. Or Afraid of the truth Which one is it?

It is a common word in Greek. It was not invented by Timothy. It means what is means in all other contexts. You cannot force a different meaning on a word just because it makes your god delusions sound better.

There is no singular in the word. If it meant singular it would read "Ho Theos Pneustos" Breath of The God. So up front you are in error. (My Greek grammar do sucketh greatly.)

All that is written is scripture. Thus the tales of Innana and Gilgamesh are equally inspired by the gods in plain English or god-inspired in "majesterial" English. The words mean only what is written. All scripture was written.All writing was given breath (of life) by the gods.

Timothy does not say, "My words are inspired by a god."

Both the old and new parts of the bible talk about many gods. If a specific god is intended its name is given. Timothy names no particular god but used a classical Greek term meaning inspired, by Muses in the specifics which named categories of art. There is no usage of this term in Greek which implies truth or quality or accuracy or trustworthy content. To imply it does is utter nonsense. The Greeks recognized most inspiration was dreck, of Ed Wood quality. That is the way the word was used by the Greeks. Nothing in the passage indicates a different meaning was intended.

But the word is first given a nonsense translation into Latin. That introduces the different idea of inspiration rather than breathing life into an idea, aid in embodying it, bringing to life what is already present. In no Greek usage does it mean imparting a new idea. Thus the translation is nonsense to begin with as it changes the meaning of the word. We do NOT have to guess what Greek words means. We can read their writings and see what they meant.

From the Latin which means something other than the Greek a contrived English translation is given. The English then introduces capitalization which is not in the Greek. It introduces capitalization which in English implies the Christian god which is not in the Greek word. It copies the Latin meaning of implanting a new idea rather than giving (the breath of) life to an existing idea.

===

Were your ignorance not bad enough, the Christian god has no name. One of the jewish gods is Yahwah of the Elohim pantheon. Yahweh Elohim is used over 5000 times. Either both words are its name or it indicates the pantheon of which it is a member.

The gosels report Jesus talking about his father. He never names his father. He never says his father is the god worshiped in the temple in Jerusalem. The Galileans like the Samaritans had the Judean god forced on them by military conquest and forced conversion. It is not credible Galileans such as Jesus would mean the Judean god. The Judeans referred to Christians as Galilean up through the 3rc c. Jews meant only Judeans. It meant geographic origin not religion. The religion of the Judeans/Jews in today's terms is correctly described as a ritual/taboo cult not a religion.

The customary identification of the Father and Yahweh as the same does not appear until the late 3rd c. AD centuries after the latest possible creation of Timothy. It is not mentioned before then. It is not credible Timothy could be talking about what did not exist until long after his death.

Why do you not know these things?

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


A_Nony_Mouse
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Jimenezj wrote:
You don't have to answer, I know you are Ignorant of scripture. I will hive you the reason why. I said the bible us the word of God. You said, Not true . The bible does not say that . I gave you 2 Timothy 3:16 were it clearly says that : English translation :All scripture is given by inspiration Of God. The original Greek translation : All scripture is God breathed . πᾶσα γραφὴ θεόπνευστος I don't expect you to comprehend this, due to your ignorance . Therefore farewell !

Is that Jerry Farewell?

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


Jean Chauvin
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Hey Micky

Mickey,

Hebrews 4:12.

It should be pointed out that we are speaking english, not Greek. Also, terms don't determine concepts, but rather concepts determine terms. Therefore, the concept of the Trinity for example is found in Scripture, but there is no word called Trinity.

Thus you have made a logical fallacy.

And have not read your Bible. The Word of God is actually in the Bible lol.

wow. This ought to be an easy refutation. But your hardened heart will somehow find a way to look at it and see something different like ducks eatting bananas at the park.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).


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Jean Chauvin wrote:

Mickey,

Hebrews 4:12.

It should be pointed out that we are speaking english, not Greek. Also, terms don't determine concepts, but rather concepts determine terms. Therefore, the concept of the Trinity for example is found in Scripture, but there is no word called Trinity.

Thus you have made a logical fallacy.

And have not read your Bible. The Word of God is actually in the Bible lol.

wow. This ought to be an easy refutation. But your hardened heart will somehow find a way to look at it and see something different like ducks eatting bananas at the park.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

So you are ignorant of Greek and semantics in general. I assure you I am not surprised.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


Jean Chauvin
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Mickey

Mickey,

Quote:
Ζῶν γὰρ λόγος τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ ἐνεργὴς καὶ τομώτερος ὑπὲρ πᾶσαν μάχαιραν δίστομον καὶ διϊκνούμενος ἄχρι μερισμοῦ ψυχῆς καὶ πνεύματος, ἁρμῶν τε καὶ μυελῶν, καὶ κριτικὸς ἐνθυμήσεων καὶ ἐννοιῶν καρδίας: 

The Logos Tou Theou, Genitive Case of Possession  = The Word Of God.

I've studied Greek since I was 15.

Refutation Noted.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

 

A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).