Love

Jimenezj
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Love

If there is no purpose and reason in life for the atheist, then what role does Love play in one's life?
For example:
Marriage
Family
Friends
Neighbors
Personal

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


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This is what your strawman

This is what your strawman questions look like to people here: 

 

If there is no reality in the life of a theist then what role does Love play in one's life?

For example:
Marriage
Family
Friends 
Neighbors 
Personal

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love

I look at purpose and reason in life probably the way you see cause and effect.  Every purpose I have has

a cause, but the purposes are finite, and they are not perpetual. I require more causes to have more purposes.

And love itself  has only one purpose. It is a drive in every category.

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


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Jimenezj wrote:If there is

Jimenezj wrote:
If there is no purpose and reason in life for the atheist, then what role does Love play in one's life?
 

It feels good.

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


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Sapient

Sapient wrote:

This is what your strawman questions look like to people here: 

 

If there is no reality in the life of a theist then what role does Love play in one's life?

For example:
Marriage
Family
Friends 
Neighbors 
Personal

  Thank You! I should have just said that

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


Jimenezj
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Its not a straw man question. it’s a honest question from what I have understood the atheist on this site. The general answer from the atheist on this site is that life has no purpose and reason. That there is no universal order and no universal truth. So my question to you is, how does Love play in your life without purpose and reason, and without universal order and truth?

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


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Jimenezj wrote:Its not a

Jimenezj wrote:
Its not a straw man question. it’s a honest question from what I have understood the atheist on this site. The general answer from the atheist on this site is that life has no purpose and reason. That there is no universal order and no universal truth. So my question to you is, how does Love play in your life without purpose and reason, and without universal order and truth?

It is a strawman for anyone that answered differently, I'm one of those people.  Furthermore you added a qualifier now, "there is no universal..." and with your qualifier, clearly you are included.  If the atheists you are asking the question to are correct and life has no purpose and reason, and I agree it has no "universal" purpose or reason then you are completely capable of answering the question yourself.

So I'll ask you... what role does love play in your life?  

 

You also should be more specific with your question.  It's awfully vague.

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Jimenezj wrote:If there is

Jimenezj wrote:
If there is no purpose and reason in life for the atheist, then what role does Love play in one's life? For example: Marriage Family Friends Neighbors Personal

So if we have reason. There's no need to answer...

Your mind will answer most questions if you learn to relax and wait for the answer. - William S. Burroughs


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So basically you are saying that you (yourself ) do have a purpose and a reason in life. Therefore love does exist in your life as a fact and not fiction verses the other atheist who do not believe in a purpose and reason in life and therefore love is fiction and not real. If this is correct, then I am in your shoes. 

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


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Survival is self-evident.

Survival is self-evident.

Your mind will answer most questions if you learn to relax and wait for the answer. - William S. Burroughs


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Jimenezj wrote:So basically

Jimenezj wrote:
So basically you are saying that you (yourself ) do have a purpose and a reason in life. Therefore love does exist in your life as a fact and not fiction verses the other atheist who do not believe in a purpose and reason in life and therefore love is fiction and not real. If this is correct, then I am in your shoes. 

You must be careful to be clear.  Universal purpose doesn't exist.  Purpose does, it's the path we choose.  We may choose that path for a variety of reasons.

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Ok. Let's say purpose in general. Would you agree or disagree with me on my last thread? I am in your shoes and viseversa.

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


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You are uninformed, Jim.

Jimenezj wrote:

The general answer from the atheist on this site is that life has no purpose and reason. That there is no universal order and no universal truth. So my question to you is, how does Love play in your life without purpose and reason, and without universal order and truth?

 

No atheist here would argue life has no subjective human purpose, no subjective human reason. We simply say there is no evidence of supernatural universal purpose. And given you cannot prove the existence of such a purpose you are painting subjective human purpose over your complete lack of comprehension but are too small-minded to see it. 

All human beings feel very much the same way. The difference comes down to the labels we attach to our feelings. I have feelings of what are commonly labelled 'love' for friends and family. But I am not silly enough to claim these feelings are part of the meaning of material reality. You feel the same feelings as I do but believe they were sent down by god from heaven on the basis of no proof. 

Your assertions that there are such things as universal order and truth are meaningless. The day you step outside the universe and comprehend what it means, then come back and lecture us. Until then, admit you have no idea what you are talking about. And dear Jim. Don't come out with suggestions that the atheist existence, which is identical to yours, lack reason. It's pretty obvious to all of us where that particular fault lies. 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Jimenezj wrote:Ok. Let's say

Jimenezj wrote:
Ok. Let's say purpose in general. Would you agree or disagree with me on my last thread? I am in your shoes and viseversa.

 

No I can't agree with your last post.  It's more strawman.  You realize that you come across as deceitful when you write?   

you said wrote:

So basically you are saying that you (yourself ) do have a purpose and a reason in life. Therefore love does exist in your life as a fact and not fiction

I agree with you so far...

here comes strawman wrote:

verses the other atheist who do not believe in a purpose and reason in life and therefore love is fiction and not real.

You would like for your reader to believe that there are atheists who do not believe in a purpose or reason in life, I have many years of experience within the atheist community, I've never heard this argument from another atheist.  Once you have your reader believing that atheists don't believe in a purpose or reason, you would then like them to believe that they don't believe in love.  That makes no sense at all.  Even if someone didn't believe there was any purpose or reason to life, that doesn't exclude them from believing in love.  Your argument is dishonest, and frankly stupid.
 

 

 

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That is good that me and you agree on the first part of purpose and
Reason. After all There is no escaping reason, no denying purpose.

The way of all things.=
Causality
Action = reaction
Cause = effect

But what I don't understand from Atheist is the definition of love. Some describe it as feelings and others (Kelly) as A chemical reaction? What is your Definition of love?

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


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The two are not mutually

The two are not mutually exclusive.  A chemical reaction in the brain causes those emotional feelings.  

 

 

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A Chemical reaction in the brain = feelings

Sounds like :

Action = reaction

Cause = effect

Fair enough !

Would you say, that with love comes giving?
Example:

A man gives a wedding ring as a token of their love.
Or
To give to your children as a symbol of your love.
Would you agree or disagree that with love comes giving?

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


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 Yes I would agree.  I'm

 Yes I would agree.  I'm curious if you recognize though that sometimes we don't give out of love for the other, but out of love for ourselves.  At Christmas you hear about how good it feels to give.  Giving can also trigger chemical reactions in the brain that can make us feel better about ourselves.  The same can be said of friendships.  We have friends for selfish reasons too.  Do you see that?

 

 

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I do see it your way also.
For the human being, love is giving but
Can also be selfish.
I believe that the General nature
Of a human being is a negative one or what I call
Evil. But some human beings (small percentage) have a positive
Nature what I call good. From this positive nature ,
Love and giving will be manifested.
As the examples of Gandi ,mother Teresa and Jesus.
And vise versa also .
The evil nature would be as in the example of
Stalin and Hitler or China's Mao.

Why do you think that two natures can exist in the human
Being? Or
Why do you think that one nature can exist in a human?

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


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Jimenezj wrote:I do see it

Jimenezj wrote:
I do see it your way also. For the human being, love is giving but Can also be selfish. I believe that the General nature Of a human being is a negative one or what I call Evil. But some human beings (small percentage) have a positive Nature what I call good. From this positive nature , Love and giving will be manifested. As the examples of Gandi ,mother Teresa and Jesus. And vise versa also . The evil nature would be as in the example of Stalin and Hitler or China's Mao. Why do you think that two natures can exist in the human Being? Or Why do you think that one nature can exist in a human?

"love" as a word as an abstraction to describe a physical observation, just like "running" is an abstract word to describe the physical in motion.

"I love my cat". I love my mom" I love pizza" " I love the NFL"

"I run in marathons" "I ran to the store", "The computer is running".

Both "love" and "running" are mere abstract words we use to describe the result of observable actions. And each of those words have a range of meaning.

And "nature" is NOT a moral judgment anymore than a tornado can know it is doing wrong.

Your problem is that you treat good feelings and desires as being magical instead of being part of the full range of nature, and biology and the universe as only producing good.

Reality IS BOTH good and bad. Reality is not magic. It is not Superman vs Kriptonite.

Tornados are natural. Rape is natural. Neither do we want harming us. "Natural" merely means we can observe it. It does not mean we want certain things affecting us, just that those natural harmful things are part of reality because we observe them.

Your entire paragraph above is nothing more than projecting "I only want nice things to happen". Yea, so do I, but in reality nice things don't always happen, and ultimately we all die no matter what.

You simply are letting your sense of awe get to you. I find lots of "WOW" AND "AWESOME" things in nature, and have the same feelings of love and compassion you do. What I don't do is assign either the good or the bad in life to myth.

I had an awesome marriage with my x wife. I feel tons of love for my mom. And when my current cat selected me at the adoption place, he melted my heart. But none of that was because of a god. My x divorcing me hurt, but it was not because of a god or satan. My cat as much as I enjoy him and love him, will die. As will I and my mom will too.

THERE IS NO mystery to life or a god governing it. There is no god. There is merely you wanting a super hero to exist.

 

 

 

 

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Jimenezj wrote:Why do you

Jimenezj wrote:
Why do you think that two natures can exist in the human Being? Or Why do you think that one nature can exist in a human?

I'm plagued by this question.  I ponder it daily.  There are many assholes out there.  For a while I thought they were just assholes.  I didn't know much about mental illness and had several people in my life do asshole things, it turned out one had bipolar and the other had borderline personality disorder.  It made me realize that mental deficiency may play a large role.  Societal conditioning plays a large role too.  Some people take joy in making others miserable because they are miserable themselves.  Maybe they need more people in their lives that love them.  They are so many reasons that lead people to be bad.  

What gets me through the pain of seeing so many horrible people in the world?  I think the answer is my own pursuit of being a good person.  Ironically I must admit it's selfish of me.  It makes me feel good to be good.  I work hard and being a positive influence in the world.  My atheist friends on this site would tell you that they are happy for my atheist efforts, but my attempts at living a positive life extend far outside of the world of atheism.  I try to keep my personal life private so I'll save you the details but I have quite a few people that I make a positive impact on in my day to day life.  I work hard to help others that deserve help and need it.  It makes me feel particularly special as an atheist to do so considering that I grew up thinking that it's religion that makes someone a good person.   Maybe part of me tries to be good just to prove the religious propagandists wrong.  I take personal pleasure in helping someone else improve their life, especially when they know I'm an atheist.  

A big part of me is good because I want others to be good to me.  Golden rule sort of thing.

 

Why do you think that two natures can exist in humans?

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When a person goes into a dark room ( evil nature.) there he will find a switch. When he turns on the switch , light comes on and darkness goes away. 

People are born with a evil nature. But have the opportunity to use the switch (God Jesus) to become a new nature the light. Therefore both natures cannot exist in a person. Only one. 

Some Christians believe that the switch is on but in reality the switch is off and still living in the dark room. That is why you have both types of people in the church.

Love that a Human being  (evil nature )generates is not 100%.  
You yourself said that it seems selfish . True and pure love is not selfish. It is not performed for the purpose of receiving.

 It is given without wanting anything in return. 
Love = giving

What is 100% true love?

The bible says that God is love and therefore a giver of love and life. His nature is love and giving.

Therefore,

Since God is love (1 John 4:16) and there is none greater than He, I conclude that God did demonstrate the greatest act of love in history, with the giving of himself to the world through the man called Jesus. 

If God's nature is love and giving then:

The reason for Man is for the purpose of Love, so that God can demonstrate his nature which is love and giving performed and completed by Jesus on the cross for the world to witness.

John 3:16
For God so LOVED the world, that he GAVE his one and only son, so that whoever believes on him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 

Only Jesus can give you the answers you look for. You won't find them anywhere else . 

Repent and turn to God, for the kingdom of heaven is near. Why?

Because God loves you. 

http://carm.org/questions/about-god/why-did-god-create-us-sin-world

Farewell .

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


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 It's a shame, we were

 It's a shame, we were starting to have a good conversation.  Your last post is basically gibberish.  

Some people may be born with a propensity for "evil" but my life experiences teach me that most actually acquire their evil traits.

Where is this switch?  Talking about it is nonsensical.

There are very few people lucky enough to have a love that is done without a single selfish interest, I can't think of an example.  The love you have for god is based out of selfishness.  If you are like most Christians, you were brainwashed as a child, you have acquired a need for god to feel a sense of comfort.  Your love for god is out of a need to have a comfort in your life.  The comfort of believing you will live after death, the comfort of feeling that someone is looking out for you, the comfort of not being fully 100% responsible for everything that happens to you.

As for the bible passages, you shut down our conversation when you use them.  They offer me no assistance, I am much too evolved to need anything from the bible as a source of information.  As for your link to CARM... I happen to think Matt Slick is an idiot as was illustrated on my radio show.  His breed of theism represents the most moronic and clueless of all types of theism.  You must have a low iq, be borderline retarded, or be dishonest with yourself and everyone around you to be a presuppositionalist (Matt Slick is)

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Jimenezj wrote:When a person

Jimenezj wrote:

When a person goes into a dark room ( evil nature.) there he will find a switch. When he turns on the switch , light comes on and darkness goes away.  People are born with a evil nature. But have the opportunity to use the switch (God Jesus) to become a new nature the light. Therefore both natures cannot exist in a person. Only one. 

So everyone who doesn't believe in god is evil?

 

Jimenezj wrote:

You yourself said that it seems selfish . True and pure love is not selfish. It is not performed for the purpose of receiving.  It is given without wanting anything in return.  Love = giving What is 100% true love?

What is more loving than wanting and enjoying to give? Love isn't selfish in the sense that you expect something in return, it is selfish in that the act of giving makes one feel good and that behavior is reinforced by those good feelings. Either you enjoy giving or you don't. If you enjoy it you give because you enjoy it. If you don't enjoy it, then you are giving for some other reason, say fear of going to hell for example. Which is better? The person who gives because they enjoy it or the person who gives because they are afraid of punishment or because some old book tells them they should? 

 

Jimenezj wrote:

The bible says that God is love and therefore a giver of love and life. His nature is love and giving. Therefore, Since God is love (1 John 4:16) and there is none greater than He, I conclude that God did demonstrate the greatest act of love in history, with the giving of himself to the world through the man called Jesus.  If God's nature is love and giving then: The reason for Man is for the purpose of Love, so that God can demonstrate his nature which is love and giving performed and completed by Jesus on the cross for the world to witness. John 3:16 For God so LOVED the world, that he GAVE his one and only son, so that whoever believes on him shall not perish, but have eternal life.  Only Jesus can give you the answers you look for. You won't find them anywhere else .  Repent and turn to God, for the kingdom of heaven is near. Why? Because God loves you.  http://carm.org/questions/about-god/why-did-god-create-us-sin-world Farewell .

 

Ah yes, such a loving creature god is. He gives us his son and allows him to be brutally tortured to death. He makes absolute demands in exchange for his "love" and anyone who does not meet those absolute demands faces extreme punishment for eternity. Furthermore, he insists that you love him more than anyone else and be willing to literally kill anyone if he asks you to, including your own children. I feel sorry for christians because if that is your concept of love you are missing out on one of the best experiences a human can have on this planet. If a human acted like god he would be considered a psychopath and christians would be suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. 

 

I also reject your assessment that most people are evil. People are self-centered which is a natural consequence of spending our whole lives experiencing the world solely through our limited senses. But I think most people are inherently kind to each other. The majority of people do not go through life gaining enjoyment from harming others and while we often do harm others it is most often the result of ignorance, fear or tribalism. And usually people who would widely be considered "evil" are capable of love. Hitler loved Eva Braun and his dogs. Humans are capable of a wide range of actions and none are all good and none are all bad. 

It was morality that burned the books of the ancient sages, and morality that halted the free inquiry of the Golden Age and substituted for it the credulous imbecility of the Age of Faith. It was a fixed moral code and a fixed theology which robbed the human race of a thousand years by wasting them upon alchemy, heretic-burning, witchcraft and sacerdotalism.-H.L. Mencken


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Jimenezj wrote:When a person

Jimenezj wrote:
When a person goes into a dark room ( evil nature.) there he will find a switch. When he turns on the switch , light comes on and darkness goes away.  People are born with a evil nature. But have the opportunity to use the switch (God Jesus) to become a new nature the light. Therefore both natures cannot exist in a person. Only one.  Some Christians believe that the switch is on but in reality the switch is off and still living in the dark room. That is why you have both types of people in the church. Love that a Human being  (evil nature )generates is not 100%.   You yourself said that it seems selfish . True and pure love is not selfish. It is not performed for the purpose of receiving.  It is given without wanting anything in return.  Love = giving What is 100% true love? The bible says that God is love and therefore a giver of love and life. His nature is love and giving. Therefore, Since God is love (1 John 4:16) and there is none greater than He, I conclude that God did demonstrate the greatest act of love in history, with the giving of himself to the world through the man called Jesus.  If God's nature is love and giving then: The reason for Man is for the purpose of Love, so that God can demonstrate his nature which is love and giving performed and completed by Jesus on the cross for the world to witness. John 3:16 For God so LOVED the world, that he GAVE his one and only son, so that whoever believes on him shall not perish, but have eternal life.  Only Jesus can give you the answers you look for. You won't find them anywhere else .  Repent and turn to God, for the kingdom of heaven is near. Why? Because God loves you.  http://carm.org/questions/about-god/why-did-god-create-us-sin-world Farewell .

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Jimenezj wrote:When a person

Jimenezj wrote:
When a person goes into a dark room ( evil nature.) there he will find a switch. When he turns on the switch , light comes on and darkness goes away.  People are born with a evil nature. But have the opportunity to use the switch (God Jesus) to become a new nature the light. Therefore both natures cannot exist in a person. Only one.  Some Christians believe that the switch is on but in reality the switch is off and still living in the dark room. That is why you have both types of people in the church. Love that a Human being  (evil nature )generates is not 100%.   You yourself said that it seems selfish . True and pure love is not selfish. It is not performed for the purpose of receiving.  It is given without wanting anything in return.  Love = giving What is 100% true love? The bible says that God is love and therefore a giver of love and life. His nature is love and giving. Therefore, Since God is love (1 John 4:16) and there is none greater than He, I conclude that God did demonstrate the greatest act of love in history, with the giving of himself to the world through the man called Jesus.  If God's nature is love and giving then: The reason for Man is for the purpose of Love, so that God can demonstrate his nature which is love and giving performed and completed by Jesus on the cross for the world to witness. John 3:16 For God so LOVED the world, that he GAVE his one and only son, so that whoever believes on him shall not perish, but have eternal life.  Only Jesus can give you the answers you look for. You won't find them anywhere else .  Repent and turn to God, for the kingdom of heaven is near. Why? Because God loves you.  http://carm.org/questions/about-god/why-did-god-create-us-sin-world Farewell .
So you are claiming that with the introduction

of Jesus into your life that your "evil" nature is taken away? Then why do you continue to sin? If you are other type of person in your church and believe the "evil"

nature is still there but has Jesus  introduced into it, then why doesn't Jesus give you the strength not to sin? Either

way you are still sinning. And if you go from there to the "free will" concept, then you just went in a circle. 

And if your God is so giving and loving he must have had a selfish streak in him to wait so long to give man Jesus.

Maybe God had his own personal God and got saved and realized he had been selfish all along?

I'm simply not looking for the same answers as you.  I'm in science and math class and you are in Sunday school.

And if all the answers you have found are satisfactory to you then so be it.  You can rest easy now. As for me,  there's

a whole universe happenin' here man and I think it's pretty cool.  I shall continue to explore!

 

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


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Hi Sapient

Hi Sapient?

So wait, are you saying that you define and understand love in the absolute? I thought there were no absolutes and thinking like love or whatever is a subjective "understanding" as to how society at the time views it. So in other words

You take George Berkely's view that reality is perspective on a given society?

oh wait, was it really a strawman my hypocritical bastard.

there are no absolutes no sundays, but monday through friday, ignore the professors throughout this country who tell students there are no absolutes, and then go back to no absolutes on sundays and continue. lol.

Subjective thinking on today begs the question. What is todays truth tomorrow's lie since tomorrow, the truth could be completely antithetical as of yesterday, perhaps tomorrow, love will be the human sacrifice to the governemnt of China.

Oh Sapient, did I just do a strawman on your position? I don't think so, but please, here's a shovel.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).


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Jean my position was

Jean my position was relatively clear.  Feel free to read it again if you're having a hard time understanding.  We weren't talking about absolutes and subjective thinking in this thread. 

 

 

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Hi Sapient

Hi Sapient,

While absolutes were not the direct discussion regarding the subject of love, it is ultimately the presuppositions of the

argument. And in that, I shot you. lol. You have no reality unless it is based on subjective societial "norms."

You're up early Sapient. What is it midnight in follywood? lol. This is a great site. I am still amazed I am not yet kicked off given how any atheists I have refuted over the years.

Any thought on making me a mod?

Bed for me, have a good morning my young Sapient. Oh i know there are no absolutes, but believe me, when you wake up to cook breakfast and the stove metal rings on your stove and toaster turn orange/red, that means they're hot. Don't touch the Sapient. Protect your middle finger to rise up to authority my young lad.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).


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Jean Chauvin wrote:Hi

Jean Chauvin wrote:

Hi Sapient,

While absolutes were not the direct discussion regarding the subject of love, it is ultimately the presuppositions of the

argument.

No it isn't.  You make no sense.

 

Quote:
Any thought on making me a mod?

I'll give you the proper theistard badge instead.

- Brian Sapient


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...

Sapient wrote:

Jean Chauvin wrote:

Any thought on making me a mod?

I'll give you the proper theistard badge instead.

 

 


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Jimenezj wrote:If there is

Jimenezj wrote:
If there is no purpose and reason in life for the atheist, then what role does Love play in one's life? For example: Marriage Family Friends Neighbors Personal

 

  So are you saying that before you became a Christian that you never loved your own family or friends ?  Before you joined your religious cult you felt nothing toward your parents or neighbors ?  It took accepting Jezusss into your heart to make you feel normal emotions ?

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.


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Groan

 

Jimenezj wrote:
When a person goes into a dark room ( evil nature.) there he will find a switch. When he turns on the switch , light comes on and darkness goes away.  People are born with a evil nature. But have the opportunity to use the switch (God Jesus) to become a new nature the light. Therefore both natures cannot exist in a person. Only one.  Some Christians believe that the switch is on but in reality the switch is off and still living in the dark room. That is why you have both types of people in the church. Love that a Human being  (evil nature )generates is not 100%.   You yourself said that it seems selfish . True and pure love is not selfish. It is not performed for the purpose of receiving.  It is given without wanting anything in return.  Love = giving What is 100% true love? The bible says that God is love and therefore a giver of love and life. His nature is love and giving. Therefore, Since God is love (1 John 4:16) and there is none greater than He, I conclude that God did demonstrate the greatest act of love in history, with the giving of himself to the world through the man called Jesus.  If God's nature is love and giving then: The reason for Man is for the purpose of Love, so that God can demonstrate his nature which is love and giving performed and completed by Jesus on the cross for the world to witness. John 3:16 For God so LOVED the world, that he GAVE his one and only son, so that whoever believes on him shall not perish, but have eternal life.  Only Jesus can give you the answers you look for. You won't find them anywhere else .  Repent and turn to God, for the kingdom of heaven is near. Why? Because God loves you.  http://carm.org/questions/about-god/why-did-god-create-us-sin-world Farewell .

 

What a turgid outpouring this is. I think it's fair to say that the capability of brains is shaped by the information injected into them and the way of thinking that is inherent in considering such information. Devoid of proof, religious assertion asks only blind acceptance on the basis of reward and punishment. It's rather sad that some people's minds never progress past this point. 

Only Jesus can give you the answers you are looking for, says Jim. Yeah right.  

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Philosophicus wrote:Sapient

Philosophicus wrote:

Sapient wrote:

Jean Chauvin wrote:

Any thought on making me a mod?

I'll give you the proper theistard badge instead.

 

 

Holy shit I just noticed that. Apt, very apt. I would have put "zoo animal" but "Theistard" works too.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Hello

Hello,

The application of love consistently applied cannot be done unless you're a Christian. And the understanding is completely impossible apart from Christianity.

What atheists do is steal Christian thinking in secret for what love is and hope nobody notices.

Sapient and others who were "educated" in public schools and grew up with MTV and weed they told their mommy was

oregano don't understand is that love cannot only be found in absolutes. If there are no absolutes, then there are

no absolutes to human understanding which includes love. Therefore atheists do not have an answer in how to love,

their answer is found in the tricker of discreet theft of Chrisitan thinking found in Scripture.

This is another example of why they are hypocrites.

 

And you notice that Sapient had absolutely no answer to my argument at all what so ever. So instead of attempt to argue with me he changed my position post as an ad hominem abusive.

I personally am proud of him changing it it just shows that atheism has absolutely zero answers when it come to the claims of atheism being absurdly irrational in the area of logic and all subjects of thought.

I intimidate Sapient, he rarely engages discourse in me. He intellectually doesn't understand basic arguent or how to argue.

Christians when stuff like this happens, know that you're doing something right and really kicking ass.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).


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 I rarely engage in

 I rarely engage in discourse with you because you're a troll.  Your arguments tend to be incoherent and nothing to do with the point.  You are also not honest with yourself so I see no reason to waste my time. 

I much prefer to have you on the forum as a toy for the other atheists to play with.  You're like a training ground for bad Christian arguments. 

- Brian Sapient


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Hi Sapient

Hi Sapient,

How convenient Sapient, lol. If we were to ever debate which you are a little lower then who I usually debate. I mean, you've written no books, you're definately not a scholar. all you did is get a couple of your punk friends to make a website blog.

You're kind of a twirp that has nothing to show for himself, lol. I typically don't debate unless my oponent has written at least one book but you have this blog so I may make an exception.

The reason why you don't understand what I say is because you are not educated. You went to a public school and spent your time knocking over garbage cans and vandalizing playgrounds. Which actually is a better education then public school education.

You are a pathetic fool (Psalms 14:1) that will rot in hell in torment every second of every day. You don't really care and laugh at the notion now, but when the time comes and you're crying for your mama. you will remember me, and I will be mocking you and so will God (Psalms 2:4).
 

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).


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Jean Chauvin wrote: make a

Jean Chauvin wrote:

 make a website blog.

It's called a forum.

 

Quote:
I typically don't debate unless my oponent has written at least one book but you have this blog so I may make an exception.

As you can see I haven't made an exception for you.

 

Quote:
You are a pathetic fool (Psalms 14:1) that will rot in hell in torment every second of every day. You don't really care and laugh at the notion now, but when the time comes and you're crying for your mama. you will remember me, and I will be mocking you and so will God (Psalms 2:4).

"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.  - Matthew 5:22

- Brian Sapient


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(Poe)

Jean Chauvin wrote:

The application of love consistently applied cannot be done unless you're a Christian. And the understanding is completely impossible apart from Christianity.[

That is very true.  Without a naked, bloody corpse nailed to a piece of wood, love is absolutely impossible.

The fossil record confirms this:  prior to 0 B.C., human fossils show no signs of oxytocin.  

The the French have a reputation for being romantic because of their extraordinarily high oxytocin production.  This is due to the Avignon papacy, which instituted the standard French diet of cheap altar wine and escargot sur brioche d'Antoinette.

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
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Hi Sapient

Hi Sapient,

An agnostic who pretends to be an atheist is going to do bible quotes lol.

The very verse you quoted said brother. YOu are not my brother, but my brother in Adam. The Bible calls you a dirty menestral rag, lol.

And a twirp is just an actual portrayal of what is.

Wow, right in the verse you quoted me and you still didn't see it.

Did you graduate from public education? lol.

But even still Sapient, even though I'll make fun of you when you act so dumb, or your eyes look opposite directions at the same, we can still be friend. Heck, we could do the big brother program together, I could be your big brother. Oh wait, unless that quote was about brothers and sisters? lol. wow.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).


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Jean Chauvin wrote:You are a

Jean Chauvin wrote:

You are a pathetic fool (Psalms 14:1) that will rot in hell in torment every second of every day. You don't really care and laugh at the notion now, but when the time comes and you're crying for your mama. you will remember me, and I will be mocking you and so will God (Psalms 2:4).

Dude, something is seriously wrong with your brain. If the above is what consistently applied love looks like, then I think I'll pass. You and your God are about the best examples of evil I could ever ask for...

 


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blacklight915 wrote:Jean

blacklight915 wrote:

Jean Chauvin wrote:

You are a pathetic fool (Psalms 14:1) that will rot in hell in torment every second of every day. You don't really care and laugh at the notion now, but when the time comes and you're crying for your mama. you will remember me, and I will be mocking you and so will God (Psalms 2:4).

Dude, something is seriously wrong with your brain. If the above is what consistently applied love looks like, then I think I'll pass. You and your God are about the best examples of evil I could ever ask for...

 

 

  That's just Jean talking dirty to you.  

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.


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Jean Chauvin wrote:we can

Jean Chauvin wrote:
we can still be friend. Heck, we could do the big brother program together, I could be your big brother.

 

  What's up with that ?  Big brother ?  Sapient I'm sensing "stranger danger".  

 

                

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.


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Jean Chauvin

Jean Chauvin wrote:

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

Oh damn, the double respectful.  Thanks brother!

 

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Re: Giving

Giving can also come about in a social status context.  If I make a large donation, it signals several things

-I am generous --> I am trustworthy

-I am the friend of those I give to --> The people getting this gift should back me up

-I have enough that I can spare some to give --> I have social status

-I did you a favor --> If I ever need you to return the favor, you owe me one

etc.

 

There are a large number of ways in which making charitable donations can benefit the donor, and not all of them rely on the evolved mechanism that makes us feel good about giving.  In fact, that mechanism probably evolved to reinforce the giving so that we can get those external benefits.

Questions for Theists:
http://silverskeptic.blogspot.com/2011/03/consistent-standards.html

I'm a bit of a lurker. Every now and then I will come out of my cave with a flurry of activity. Then the Ph.D. program calls and I must fall back to the shadows.


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Zaq

If you look close at what you wrote, you will
See sings of selfishness. Example:

1. I am
2. I am
3. I Have
4. I did

This is not love, this is selfishness for the purpose
Of personal benefit.

True love is not given, without expecting anything in return .
What God did, is true love.
God gave himself in the form of Jesus, knowing that
The world would reject him, yet he still did it. By him doing this,
The door of grace was open, for all to come in. Therefore humanity
Has the oportunity to be Saved by grace through faith in Jesus.
Through faith.

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


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...

Jimenezj wrote:

True love is not given, without expecting anything in return . What God did, is true love. God gave himself in the form of Jesus, knowing that The world would reject him, yet he still did it. By him doing this, The door of grace was open, for all to come in. Therefore humanity Has the oportunity to be Saved by grace through faith in Jesus. Through faith.

Why does it have to be through faith?  That's the tool of the con man, and you're his shill.  On your point of Jesus giving without expecting anything in return, that's false.  In the story, Jesus expects us to be his slave.  And that's not all he does; he planned to send anyone not willing to be his slave to eternal torture.  Imagine the Jews being tortured by the Nazis, only to find themselves in hell being tortured by Jesus far longer and more brutally than the Nazis ever could, only for the "crime" of not being Jesus' slave.  How is this moral?

You said true love is given without expecting anything in return.  Can you think of anyone you shouldn't love, in any circumstance?

 

 


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What do we do with all these folks going to H3LL ?

Title: "What do we do with all these folks going to H3LL?"

blacklight915 wrote:

Jean Chauvin wrote:

You are a pathetic fool (Psalms 14:1) that will rot in hell in torment every second of every day. You don't really care and laugh at the notion now, but when the time comes and you're crying for your mama. you will remember me, and I will be mocking you and so will God (Psalms 2:4).

Blacklight915, If the above is what consistently applied love looks like, then I think I'll pass. You and your God are about the best examples of evil I could ever ask for...

 


Dude
Would a loving G-d bring Jean to the board? Really? This 'Spockian' logic-distilled, is a plain azz lie from you, MR Jean That is no more true w/ you, than with the fictional character, in the original series. I noticed you think many of the faith are disqualifed (according to you). By your own statement, Dont you run a risk of being 'disqualifed' yourself? You leave love alone Jean!


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Dana

Dana,
what is your perspective on love?
What do you think love is in general?
And
What do you expect love is between a man and
A woman?

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


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Glad to be with you on the boards Jimenezj

Jimenezj

By what you just outlined, I could tell it derived from a Pauline passage. Not to either disregard nor validate the passage; but it reads: Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things; hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails.. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away ..For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known. And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love',. (I'd hope no one on half the continent would disregard that)
Two comments In the broader context most of what Paul wrote was a 'correction' there are innumerable instances.
But I can acknowledge it does make a lot of sense and can surely be a guide ALL ON ITS' OWN. IMO, It is no surprise (along with the lord's Prayer) it is seen on everything from barbers' shop walls to cards. For me personally, "I" am reminded of what a friend of the family once said. She told her oldest son. I may not always like you, but I always love you. Not to get into the family dynamics, but you can be assured it wasn't like it sounds She was reminding him that no matter how much sorrow he caused, she would always love him in her heart. What love requires is often a great effort on our part when our heart doesn't listen or acknowledge what your saying. I didnt understand that more fully til my grandpa's passing.

Second part of the question I think is more a case by case sort of thing. Not having authentic luv, I can think of no more bitter tears.


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Dana

Dana, Many people have fallen victim to bitter love, to include myself.
Not too many People understand what a marriage between a man and a woman is all about.  That is why there is such a high divorce rate among society. But to fully understand what is marriage, one must fully understand what is Love.

What is Love?
If God is love,
And God is life,
And If love is giving,
Then The product of love is life.

Example of man and woman:
Man joins a women to become one body (love) which will produce a new life ( child) or a new birth, a new nature.

Example of humanity and God:

God gave himself to the world in a man called Jesus, as a Symbol of his love to the world. The product of the marriage  or union of Jesus and humanity is a new birth called, born again. 

To reject the marriege (God and human) will stop the product of love and therefore no life. The same as the rejection Of a man or woman in a marriege will stop the product of their life and therefore no kids or no new life. 

Love is giving.

In a marriage, love is giving.
It is not a give and take marriage. This would be selfish and the outcome of many failed marriages . 

Example:
A women gives herself to the man as a symbol of their love and vise versa. The woman gives the man a child as the product of their love. The man gives the Woman a ring as a symbol of their love. 

God gave himself to the world in a man called Jesus, as a Symbol of his love to the world. The product of the marriage of Jesus and humanity is a new birth called, born again. 

John 1:13
Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3:5

Jesus replied, "I assure you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit 

You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'

It is interesting how Jesus describes the kingdom of God as a new life or being born again as in the example of a baby being born of human flesh.

If God is Love, then what will happen when you put Jesus as #1 in your life.

2.You will begin to love yourself.
3. You will begin to love your wife or husband .
4. You will begin to love your children.
5. You will begin to love the world.

What happens when you replace God in your life for:

1. Yourself ? You will become selfish . 
2. With your wife or husband ?  You will become jealous.
3. With your kids? You will worry.
4. Drugs and alcohol ? You will become an addict.
5. Music? You will become a music worshiper.

Why is this? 
Why is it that all these things will not bring true love into your life?

Answer: 
It is because these people, places and things do not equal love or are not love.

1 John 4:8

 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

The bible says that God is love.
And the product of love is life.

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God.