I think I just generally hate my country

Pillowpants
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I think I just generally hate my country

 I'm an American, born and raised by patriotic parents.  I can't to call myself that.  If you spend time reading Wikileaks how can you be a proud American.  America is the worst thing to happen to the world since Nazi Germany.  We commit genocide all over the world and our news media and population cares more about Lindsey Lohan.  The fourth amendment died with the patriot act.  Now Obama has signed away our right to due process.  Julian Assange has the courage to tell the world the things our government covers up and he get's solitary confinement without any charges or trial.  How long before you get imprisoned indefinitely without a trial for saying "I hate my country."?   I'm 16, atheist, in college early.  To add insult I just finished an American government class where the instructor was constantly encouraging us to vote so our voices can be heard. At the moment I can't think of any more complaints but I could probably fill a whole page.  What the fuck do I do?


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Keep true to yourself and

Keep true to yourself and don't let anyone bog you down in what you feel.  You're still incredibly impressionable and growing up in an extremely uncertain time in American history so it's easy to get discouraged with what you see on the news and all the policies being passed that seem to stretch what "freedoms," and I use that term incredibly loosely, we have left to the limit.

 

Join groups that feel the same way you do; strength in numbers.  You're definitely not the only one that has those types of views and is genuinely growing more and more concerned with what is going on in this country especially with the 2012 election coming up.  Depending on what college you're attending, you should have no trouble finding any type of organization geared towards a social reform, atheism or getting active in your community.  Do whatever you can to stay on top of these issues and keep an open mind.  Above all, be vocal and be smart. 

"When the majority believes in what is false, the truth becomes a quest." - Me


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...

Pillowpants wrote:

 At the moment I can't think of any more complaints but I could probably fill a whole page.  What the fuck do I do?

Think of some more complaints, then vent.  A rant every once in a while helps to clear the head.

 

 

 


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Philosophicus

Philosophicus wrote:

Pillowpants wrote:

 At the moment I can't think of any more complaints but I could probably fill a whole page.  What the fuck do I do?

Think of some more complaints, then vent.  A rant every once in a while helps to clear the head.

 

Other than piss and moan, what are YOU going to do about it?  Instead of pissing, moaning, and whining about it, get involved and do something active.  Nothing worse than a complainer who is not willing to lift a finger beyond whining on an internet chat board.  There are all kinds of political groups to get with. 

 

Hell...I've gotten so involved in my past that I even had a guy fire shots at me and have been run off the road.  That is when you KNOW you are being effective. 


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Burnedout

Burnedout wrote:

Philosophicus wrote:

Pillowpants wrote:

 At the moment I can't think of any more complaints but I could probably fill a whole page.  What the fuck do I do?

Think of some more complaints, then vent.  A rant every once in a while helps to clear the head.

 

Other than piss and moan, what are YOU going to do about it?  Instead of pissing, moaning, and whining about it, get involved and do something active.  Nothing worse than a complainer who is not willing to lift a finger beyond whining on an internet chat board.  There are all kinds of political groups to get with. 

 

Hell...I've gotten so involved in my past that I even had a guy fire shots at me and have been run off the road.  That is when you KNOW you are being effective. 

This internet has helped everything from the Egyptian uprising to the occupy movement. And a single bitch or moan can lead to a movement. And it has helped the atheist movement tremendously. I am on the net every single day "bitching and moaning" anywhere and everywhere I can.

Anyone who thinks on voice or mere posting doesn't matter has their head up their ass.

As to the OP lots of things about America's future do bother me too. If you need to vent here, have at it.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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I think the problem here is

I think the problem here is you've been sold a line of BS your whole life that government can look out for your best interests. I think you need to be a cynic and just accept that no one is ever looking out for you. People are not motivated to serve the public, they can only serve themselves.

I think you need to rethink your whole expectation of what government can do. Government at it's core is just a bunch of people that use deadly force to enforce rules that may or may not be in your interest. But you have to ultimately be responsible for your own security, prosperity and happiness.

No one in this world is looking out for you. Just accept this and move on, hating is just waisted energy.

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


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Quote:This internet has

Quote:

This internet has helped everything from the Egyptian uprising to the occupy movement. And a single bitch or moan can lead to a movement. And it has helped the atheist movement tremendously. I am on the net every single day "bitching and moaning" anywhere and everywhere I can.

Anyone who thinks on voice or mere posting doesn't matter has their head up their ass.

As to the OP lots of things about America's future do bother me too. If you need to vent here, have at it.

 

That wasn't even worth a response, Brian.  Burned has already displayed his "trollness" through and through.  If you say something even remotely threatening to rattle his narrow view, expect to get a stupid retort from him.  Fair warning of what to expect.

"When the majority believes in what is false, the truth becomes a quest." - Me


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Sage_Override

Sage_Override wrote:

Quote:

This internet has helped everything from the Egyptian uprising to the occupy movement. And a single bitch or moan can lead to a movement. And it has helped the atheist movement tremendously. I am on the net every single day "bitching and moaning" anywhere and everywhere I can.

Anyone who thinks on voice or mere posting doesn't matter has their head up their ass.

As to the OP lots of things about America's future do bother me too. If you need to vent here, have at it.

 

That wasn't even worth a response, Brian.  Burned has already displayed his "trollness" through and through.  If you say something even remotely threatening to rattle his narrow view, expect to get a stupid retort from him.  Fair warning of what to expect.

 

Spoken like a true young snotty little whiner.  Smiling


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EXC wrote:I think the

EXC wrote:

I think the problem here is you've been sold a line of BS your whole life that government can look out for your best interests. I think you need to be a cynic and just accept that no one is ever looking out for you. People are not motivated to serve the public, they can only serve themselves.

I think you need to rethink your whole expectation of what government can do. Government at it's core is just a bunch of people that use deadly force to enforce rules that may or may not be in your interest. But you have to ultimately be responsible for your own security, prosperity and happiness.

No one in this world is looking out for you. Just accept this and move on, hating is just waisted energy.

 

Correctamundo......Government is only capable of stealing...er I mean taxing money from people who earn it and giving it to people who don't earn it but consume it by threats, intimidation, and outright force....all under the color of law. 


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Brian37 wrote:Burnedout

Brian37 wrote:

Burnedout wrote:

Philosophicus wrote:

Pillowpants wrote:

 At the moment I can't think of any more complaints but I could probably fill a whole page.  What the fuck do I do?

Think of some more complaints, then vent.  A rant every once in a while helps to clear the head.

 

Other than piss and moan, what are YOU going to do about it?  Instead of pissing, moaning, and whining about it, get involved and do something active.  Nothing worse than a complainer who is not willing to lift a finger beyond whining on an internet chat board.  There are all kinds of political groups to get with. 

 

Hell...I've gotten so involved in my past that I even had a guy fire shots at me and have been run off the road.  That is when you KNOW you are being effective. 

This internet has helped everything from the Egyptian uprising to the occupy movement. And a single bitch or moan can lead to a movement. And it has helped the atheist movement tremendously. I am on the net every single day "bitching and moaning" anywhere and everywhere I can.

Anyone who thinks on voice or mere posting doesn't matter has their head up their ass.

As to the OP lots of things about America's future do bother me too. If you need to vent here, have at it.

 

I never said it didn't help.  What I was telling him to do was to GET OFF HIS ASS AND DO SOMETHING.  Is that OK your Highness?


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EXC wrote:I think the

EXC wrote:

I think the problem here is you've been sold a line of BS your whole life that government can look out for your best interests. I think you need to be a cynic and just accept that no one is ever looking out for you. People are not motivated to serve the public, they can only serve themselves.

I think you need to rethink your whole expectation of what government can do. Government at it's core is just a bunch of people that use deadly force to enforce rules that may or may not be in your interest. But you have to ultimately be responsible for your own security, prosperity and happiness.

No one in this world is looking out for you. Just accept this and move on, hating is just waisted energy.

And I think you suffer Dirty Harry economic thinking as if there were no rules at all everything would be ok.

Otherwise why don''t you work on outlawing the voting by the "have not" class, and only allow the "haves" to vote. Good luck with that.

Your mindset falsely thinks wild west economics works when we've had that for the past 30 years. Regulation after WW2 and higher taxes built our middle class and kept higher education virtually free. And how the fuck do you think our highway system got built? That tax money came from all of us which went to private contractors. The Hoover dam was built by tax payers money that went to private contractors.

If idiots like you set our current policies in place we wouldn't have our highway system or middle class because TAXES BAD!

Your let them eat cake and every man for themselves attitude is BULLSHIT!

All the top class has done for the past 30 years is shipped jobs overseas, exploded the pay gap and sat on their money and haven't done SHIT to invest here. And people like you bitch because people with less also have the right to vote. Cry me a fucking river!

 But you are right about one thing, government wont look out for us. The middle class and working poor have to out compete the money that has fucked us all and make our government care. I think we can and will do that. And when we do, you'll find we are not out to rob you and we don't want a nanny state.

Economic right wingers are the fuckwads sold a bill of goods that government is only there to protect them. I will give them this, they have been successful at that for the past 30 years. But it is up to the rest of us to clean up the fucking mess they made.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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Sage_Override

Sage_Override wrote:

Quote:

This internet has helped everything from the Egyptian uprising to the occupy movement. And a single bitch or moan can lead to a movement. And it has helped the atheist movement tremendously. I am on the net every single day "bitching and moaning" anywhere and everywhere I can.

Anyone who thinks on voice or mere posting doesn't matter has their head up their ass.

As to the OP lots of things about America's future do bother me too. If you need to vent here, have at it.

 

That wasn't even worth a response, Brian.  Burned has already displayed his "trollness" through and through.  If you say something even remotely threatening to rattle his narrow view, expect to get a stupid retort from him.  Fair warning of what to expect.

In my history of responding to stupidity on the net, on this site or anywhere, is that while you are right, it is not worth a response, the volume of stupidity as a whole has to be responded to. If he were just one nut on the street corner claiming to be Napoleon that would be one thing. But never underestimate delusion in mass numbers.

If anything it puts him on display.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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Quote:Correctamundo......Gove

Quote:


Correctamundo......Government is only capable of stealing...er I mean taxing money from people who earn it and giving it to people who don't earn it but consume it by threats, intimidation, and outright force....all under the color of law. 

Steeling is what Somalia's few wealthly rulers do. Is that what you want? Protect only those with money? You don't need a government to protect money, Somalia would be a great place for your mindset. All you are advocating is money equals power.

Saudi's Royal family is not poor. That is merely money protecting the status quoe. Go live there since money is all you care about. Their Royal family loves money too.  China's communist government is protected by money.

All you are advocating is protection of one class via might makes right. Mob rule via money. You are advocating a monopoly and too damn dense to see it.

I am sick of bullshit like this.

If money is the only thing important to the measure of an individual then stick all the middle class and poor in ovens like Jews because that is your pathetic mindset.

I have value and the middle class and working poor do the bulk of the physical work, not the CEOs and the Shareholders.

Three classes are needed in a healthy open market. But I don't want to hear people like you bitch when the middle class and working poor did not wreck the car. Now we are using the same Constitution and same voting booth to compete for the drivers seat . BOO AND FUCKNG HOO.

Maybe if the dickheads in the banks and car companies and housing industry, and the fuckwads who overcharge for medical care gave a ratts ass, we wouldn't be in this mess.

If money is the only thing in this country that should have power in politics, then go work on making a law that anyone who doesn't own property or makes under a certain amount cant vote. Good luck with that.

I am sick of the self centered bullshit of the economic right as if they did everything by themselves. FUCK YOU.

The people that work for you and make you rich are worth something and we are fucking tired of being exploited and treated like numbers on a page. We vote to, get the fuck over it. That is how a free society operates. You don't own a fucking monopoly on politics or our economy or our voting booths.

MAYBE the top should think more about people instead of masturbating over money, it wouldn't have gotten this bad. But you have no fucking right to bitch about the rights of the middle class and working poor having the right to vote too.

BOO HOO, mommy the uppity paupers are getting angry. Should have thought about that before you wrecked the car.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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Brian37

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:

 

Correctamundo......Government is only capable of stealing...er I mean taxing money from people who earn it and giving it to people who don't earn it but consume it by threats, intimidation, and outright force....all under the color of law. 

Steeling is what Somalia's few wealthly rulers do. Is that what you want? Protect only those with money? You don't need a government to protect money, Somalia would be a great place for your mindset. All you are advocating is money equals power.

Saudi's Royal family is not poor. That is merely money protecting the status quoe. Go live there since money is all you care about. Their Royal family loves money too.  China's communist government is protected by money.

All you are advocating is protection of one class via might makes right. Mob rule via money. You are advocating a monopoly and too damn dense to see it.

I am sick of bullshit like this.

If money is the only thing important to the measure of an individual then stick all the middle class and poor in ovens like Jews because that is your pathetic mindset.

I have value and the middle class and working poor do the bulk of the physical work, not the CEOs and the Shareholders.

Three classes are needed in a healthy open market. But I don't want to hear people like you bitch when the middle class and working poor did not wreck the car. Now we are using the same Constitution and same voting booth to compete for the drivers seat . BOO AND FUCKNG HOO.

Maybe if the dickheads in the banks and car companies and housing industry, and the fuckwads who overcharge for medical care gave a ratts ass, we wouldn't be in this mess.

If money is the only thing in this country that should have power in politics, then go work on making a law that anyone who doesn't own property or makes under a certain amount cant vote. Good luck with that.

I am sick of the self centered bullshit of the economic right as if they did everything by themselves. FUCK YOU.

The people that work for you and make you rich are worth something and we are fucking tired of being exploited and treated like numbers on a page. We vote to, get the fuck over it. That is how a free society operates. You don't own a fucking monopoly on politics or our economy or our voting booths.

MAYBE the top should think more about people instead of masturbating over money, it wouldn't have gotten this bad. But you have no fucking right to bitch about the rights of the middle class and working poor having the right to vote too.

BOO HOO, mommy the uppity paupers are getting angry. Should have thought about that before you wrecked the car.

 

 

Gee your highness, do you piss and moan that well naturally or do you have to practice? 

I am amused that every neo marxist plays the 'Go to Somalia' card.  FYI...Somalia is ruled by war lords....a form of neo tribal government, but government and very repressive at best.  You are spouting a misnomer. 

As for the problems of this country is because the government jumped into bed with the bankers and unions and car companies.  We don't have free enterprise and have not for many years.  For some reason (actually I know why) you like to fill your rhetoric with marxist religious doctrine about how the market screws everyone.  Well your highness, you have been lied to and you have no clothes.  Now...go have a nice day...Eye-wink


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I don't care at all for

I don't care at all for America. It talks a good game, but it's not backed by actions. It's people are the most oppressed in the free world, and should get the hell out. I pity them. But they generally aren't aware of the reality. Those who are tend to either be scared to leave (the unknown is scary) or intent on trying to make a difference.
My advice to any American is to move, quickly. Parts of Europe and Canada are good alternatives. Canada doesn't even require travelling far. So if you change your mind you're close enough to move back relatively cheaply.
They're not perfect nations, there's no such thing. But sticking with the bloated Roman Empire just isn't going to end well.

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Burnedout

Burnedout wrote:

Sage_Override wrote:

Quote:

This internet has helped everything from the Egyptian uprising to the occupy movement. And a single bitch or moan can lead to a movement. And it has helped the atheist movement tremendously. I am on the net every single day "bitching and moaning" anywhere and everywhere I can.

Anyone who thinks on voice or mere posting doesn't matter has their head up their ass.

As to the OP lots of things about America's future do bother me too. If you need to vent here, have at it.

 

That wasn't even worth a response, Brian.  Burned has already displayed his "trollness" through and through.  If you say something even remotely threatening to rattle his narrow view, expect to get a stupid retort from him.  Fair warning of what to expect.

 

Spoken like a true young snotty little whiner.  Smiling

Proof received. lol. Trolls can't help themselves.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Vastet wrote:Burnedout

Vastet wrote:
Burnedout wrote:

Sage_Override wrote:

Quote:

This internet has helped everything from the Egyptian uprising to the occupy movement. And a single bitch or moan can lead to a movement. And it has helped the atheist movement tremendously. I am on the net every single day "bitching and moaning" anywhere and everywhere I can.

Anyone who thinks on voice or mere posting doesn't matter has their head up their ass.

As to the OP lots of things about America's future do bother me too. If you need to vent here, have at it.

 

That wasn't even worth a response, Brian.  Burned has already displayed his "trollness" through and through.  If you say something even remotely threatening to rattle his narrow view, expect to get a stupid retort from him.  Fair warning of what to expect.

 

Spoken like a true young snotty little whiner.  Smiling

Proof received. lol. Trolls can't help themselves.

 

Awww how cute....Little Lord Fauntleroy thinks he's smart........Tell me when you become an adult. 


Vastet
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^ Truth hurts, apparently.

^ Truth hurts, apparently. Laughing out loud

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Vastet wrote:^ Truth hurts,

Vastet wrote:
^ Truth hurts, apparently. :D

Awww his little princely highness thinks he is smart because he can spout his latest readings from a comic book.....LOL..  You're funny. 


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This Burned guy makes the

This Burned guy makes the boards worth coming on sometimes.  If nothing else, it's to amusing to envision this pitiful waste of food sitting in his Captain Kirk Swivel chair, eating cereal out of a see-through plastic cup, in his Spongebob underwear while his monitor casts a lonely glare on his pitch black room with the curtain drawn and the window frocked a charcoal color.  All the while, he giggles to himself and wonders why his life is such a disgusting example of sloth, failure and depression. 

 

It's ok, Burned; at least you have your Legos and unopened action figures to talk to when you need comfort because I'm sure after the first few attempts to chloroform a nice young woman to drag back into your cave, dealing with inanimate objects seemed like the most suitable coarse of action.

"When the majority believes in what is false, the truth becomes a quest." - Me


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Burnedout wrote:Brian37

Burnedout wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:

 

Correctamundo......Government is only capable of stealing...er I mean taxing money from people who earn it and giving it to people who don't earn it but consume it by threats, intimidation, and outright force....all under the color of law. 

Steeling is what Somalia's few wealthly rulers do. Is that what you want? Protect only those with money? You don't need a government to protect money, Somalia would be a great place for your mindset. All you are advocating is money equals power.

Saudi's Royal family is not poor. That is merely money protecting the status quoe. Go live there since money is all you care about. Their Royal family loves money too.  China's communist government is protected by money.

All you are advocating is protection of one class via might makes right. Mob rule via money. You are advocating a monopoly and too damn dense to see it.

I am sick of bullshit like this.

If money is the only thing important to the measure of an individual then stick all the middle class and poor in ovens like Jews because that is your pathetic mindset.

I have value and the middle class and working poor do the bulk of the physical work, not the CEOs and the Shareholders.

Three classes are needed in a healthy open market. But I don't want to hear people like you bitch when the middle class and working poor did not wreck the car. Now we are using the same Constitution and same voting booth to compete for the drivers seat . BOO AND FUCKNG HOO.

Maybe if the dickheads in the banks and car companies and housing industry, and the fuckwads who overcharge for medical care gave a ratts ass, we wouldn't be in this mess.

If money is the only thing in this country that should have power in politics, then go work on making a law that anyone who doesn't own property or makes under a certain amount cant vote. Good luck with that.

I am sick of the self centered bullshit of the economic right as if they did everything by themselves. FUCK YOU.

The people that work for you and make you rich are worth something and we are fucking tired of being exploited and treated like numbers on a page. We vote to, get the fuck over it. That is how a free society operates. You don't own a fucking monopoly on politics or our economy or our voting booths.

MAYBE the top should think more about people instead of masturbating over money, it wouldn't have gotten this bad. But you have no fucking right to bitch about the rights of the middle class and working poor having the right to vote too.

BOO HOO, mommy the uppity paupers are getting angry. Should have thought about that before you wrecked the car.

 

 

Gee your highness, do you piss and moan that well naturally or do you have to practice? 

I am amused that every neo marxist plays the 'Go to Somalia' card.  FYI...Somalia is ruled by war lords....a form of neo tribal government, but government and very repressive at best.  You are spouting a misnomer. 

As for the problems of this country is because the government jumped into bed with the bankers and unions and car companies.  We don't have free enterprise and have not for many years.  For some reason (actually I know why) you like to fill your rhetoric with marxist religious doctrine about how the market screws everyone.  Well your highness, you have been lied to and you have no clothes.  Now...go have a nice day...Eye-wink

Oh stop it with the Marxist bullshit.

This has to do with pay gap, not with robbing the rich.

The rise of the Russian revolution was the same result as the fall. The rise of the middle class in America was a result as the same thing as it's 30 year decline.

None of what I am arguing has to do with advocating the end of private property or the end of a three class system.

I agree that government jumped in. Because WE allowed the monopoly of the rich based on the promise of a utopia.

I aslo agree that we don't have free enterprise. But not because of less regulation, or more regulation, but because of monopolies of power.

If those at the top will not self regulate, and simply stack the deck to buy off both parties, no amount of less government or more government will cure that monopoly.

IF IF IF IF IF IF IF

A HUGE FUCKING IF

If the people at the top would stop seeing themselves as separate from the rest of us, IF IF IF IF IF IF, they would STOP asking for government protection in the form of tax cuts and stop siting on the money, and invest here, we would do far better.

BUT what won't happen is more of the same. IF IF IF IF IF IF IF THEY WONT take it upon themselves to care, they cannot bitch when our Constitution gives those outside their class an equal right to vote, to compete for the same drivers seat they have dominated for the past 30 years that has caused the things you rightfully accuse them of.

Letting them do more of the same will not work. Letting them create more of a pay gap, and less government when they have shown they have no loyalty to those who work for them WILL NOT FUCKING WORK

If those at the top want less people on the government dime. If they want less poverty, if they want more independence THEY CAN DO THAT. Cant and dont want to are two different things.

Hording and exploiting and saying " I don't give a shit about you"  has not worked and will not work.

AND AGAIN, if they think money is the only thing that matters then they should work on making it illegal for non property owners and poor voting. Good luck with that.

Since that wont happen, then they better fucking wake up and accept that wealth is not the center of attention. Wealth is needed, but it is not worth a shit if it is as selfish as the state dogmatism of Stalin or the state religion of Iran.

WE the people, not WE the rich, NOT we the poor, NOT WE the atheists, not WE the Christians,

WE THE PEOPLE

The rich wrecked the car and the rest of the people want a shot at driving. CRY ME A FUCKING RIVER

Those who bitch about regulation now should have thought about that before others felt the need to ask for it.

our government is not the property of one class and bitching now about it wont work.

 

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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Sage_Override wrote:This

Sage_Override wrote:

This Burned guy makes the boards worth coming on sometimes.  If nothing else, it's to amusing to envision this pitiful waste of food sitting in his Captain Kirk Swivel chair, eating cereal out of a see-through plastic cup, in his Spongebob underwear while his monitor casts a lonely glare on his pitch black room with the curtain drawn and the window frocked a charcoal color.  All the while, he giggles to himself and wonders why his life is such a disgusting example of sloth, failure and depression. 

 

It's ok, Burned; at least you have your Legos and unopened action figures to talk to when you need comfort because I'm sure after the first few attempts to chloroform a nice young woman to drag back into your cave, dealing with inanimate objects seemed like the most suitable coarse of action.

 

Damn...you really try hard to be sarcastic.  Did you get your man pussy hurt or something?  You try too hard.


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Brian37 wrote:Burnedout

Brian37 wrote:

Burnedout wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:

 

Correctamundo......Government is only capable of stealing...er I mean taxing money from people who earn it and giving it to people who don't earn it but consume it by threats, intimidation, and outright force....all under the color of law. 

Steeling is what Somalia's few wealthly rulers do. Is that what you want? Protect only those with money? You don't need a government to protect money, Somalia would be a great place for your mindset. All you are advocating is money equals power.

Saudi's Royal family is not poor. That is merely money protecting the status quoe. Go live there since money is all you care about. Their Royal family loves money too.  China's communist government is protected by money.

All you are advocating is protection of one class via might makes right. Mob rule via money. You are advocating a monopoly and too damn dense to see it.

I am sick of bullshit like this.

If money is the only thing important to the measure of an individual then stick all the middle class and poor in ovens like Jews because that is your pathetic mindset.

I have value and the middle class and working poor do the bulk of the physical work, not the CEOs and the Shareholders.

Three classes are needed in a healthy open market. But I don't want to hear people like you bitch when the middle class and working poor did not wreck the car. Now we are using the same Constitution and same voting booth to compete for the drivers seat . BOO AND FUCKNG HOO.

Maybe if the dickheads in the banks and car companies and housing industry, and the fuckwads who overcharge for medical care gave a ratts ass, we wouldn't be in this mess.

If money is the only thing in this country that should have power in politics, then go work on making a law that anyone who doesn't own property or makes under a certain amount cant vote. Good luck with that.

I am sick of the self centered bullshit of the economic right as if they did everything by themselves. FUCK YOU.

The people that work for you and make you rich are worth something and we are fucking tired of being exploited and treated like numbers on a page. We vote to, get the fuck over it. That is how a free society operates. You don't own a fucking monopoly on politics or our economy or our voting booths.

MAYBE the top should think more about people instead of masturbating over money, it wouldn't have gotten this bad. But you have no fucking right to bitch about the rights of the middle class and working poor having the right to vote too.

BOO HOO, mommy the uppity paupers are getting angry. Should have thought about that before you wrecked the car.

 

 

Gee your highness, do you piss and moan that well naturally or do you have to practice? 

I am amused that every neo marxist plays the 'Go to Somalia' card.  FYI...Somalia is ruled by war lords....a form of neo tribal government, but government and very repressive at best.  You are spouting a misnomer. 

As for the problems of this country is because the government jumped into bed with the bankers and unions and car companies.  We don't have free enterprise and have not for many years.  For some reason (actually I know why) you like to fill your rhetoric with marxist religious doctrine about how the market screws everyone.  Well your highness, you have been lied to and you have no clothes.  Now...go have a nice day...Eye-wink

Oh stop it with the Marxist bullshit.

This has to do with pay gap, not with robbing the rich.

The rise of the Russian revolution was the same result as the fall. The rise of the middle class in America was a result as the same thing as it's 30 year decline.

None of what I am arguing has to do with advocating the end of private property or the end of a three class system.

I agree that government jumped in. Because WE allowed the monopoly of the rich based on the promise of a utopia.

I aslo agree that we don't have free enterprise. But not because of less regulation, or more regulation, but because of monopolies of power.

If those at the top will not self regulate, and simply stack the deck to buy off both parties, no amount of less government or more government will cure that monopoly.

IF IF IF IF IF IF IF

A HUGE FUCKING IF

If the people at the top would stop seeing themselves as separate from the rest of us, IF IF IF IF IF IF, they would STOP asking for government protection in the form of tax cuts and stop siting on the money, and invest here, we would do far better.

BUT what won't happen is more of the same. IF IF IF IF IF IF IF THEY WONT take it upon themselves to care, they cannot bitch when our Constitution gives those outside their class an equal right to vote, to compete for the same drivers seat they have dominated for the past 30 years that has caused the things you rightfully accuse them of.

Letting them do more of the same will not work. Letting them create more of a pay gap, and less government when they have shown they have no loyalty to those who work for them WILL NOT FUCKING WORK

If those at the top want less people on the government dime. If they want less poverty, if they want more independence THEY CAN DO THAT. Cant and dont want to are two different things.

Hording and exploiting and saying " I don't give a shit about you"  has not worked and will not work.

AND AGAIN, if they think money is the only thing that matters then they should work on making it illegal for non property owners and poor voting. Good luck with that.

Since that wont happen, then they better fucking wake up and accept that wealth is not the center of attention. Wealth is needed, but it is not worth a shit if it is as selfish as the state dogmatism of Stalin or the state religion of Iran.

WE the people, not WE the rich, NOT we the poor, NOT WE the atheists, not WE the Christians,

WE THE PEOPLE

The rich wrecked the car and the rest of the people want a shot at driving. CRY ME A FUCKING RIVER

Those who bitch about regulation now should have thought about that before others felt the need to ask for it.

our government is not the property of one class and bitching now about it wont work.

 

 

Maybe you are not technically spouting Marxism, but you are for a version of statism.  You want the government in control of everything.  You want cradle to grave government being nanny mommy and nanny daddy.  Effectively limiting or all but eliminating any freedom of choice in economic decisions.  Not for me.  Give me unfettered free markets baby.....


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When I read Bri an I feel

When I read Bri an I feel like I'm reading my own thoughts by a version of me that is more articulate.  Are you Brian Flemming?  If so I'd like to say that I used to be a fundamentalist Christian for the first until I was 13.  Your film was probably the final straw to my theistic beliefs.  You should be proud of that because I didn't let go of my faith without a fight.  I really enjoyed it, then again I'm sure we all did.

 


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Brian37 wrote:And I think

Brian37 wrote:

And I think you suffer Dirty Harry economic thinking as if there were no rules at all everything would be ok.

No I don't believe in no rules. I believe anyone that gets the money I earn should follow my rules, not yours. I just want to prevent you your kind from deciding how it should be used. 

Brian37 wrote:

Otherwise why don''t you work on outlawing the voting by the "have not" class, and only allow the "haves" to vote. Good luck with that.

Well it is highly irrational to not have a say in how taxes are spent if one doesn't pay any. An unsustainable situation only leading to massive debt and economic failure for all classes.

Brian37 wrote:

Your mindset falsely thinks wild west economics works when we've had that for the past 30 years.

What??? Do you know how much government spending is up in the last 30 years? Especially for entitlements. Do you know how much the percentage of people dependant on government benefits has grown?

Brian37 wrote:

Regulation after WW2 and higher taxes built our middle class and kept higher education virtually free.

Hardly, Eisenhower and Kennedy both cut taxes. America's downward spiral began with the 'war' on poverty of the 60s which brought on inflation, massive debt and jobs shipped away.

Brian37 wrote:

And how the fuck do you think our highway system got built? That tax money came from all of us which went to private contractors. The Hoover dam was built by tax payers money that went to private contractors.

This money came more as a user fee than as a tax. The government essentially borrowed the money to build these and then get revenue back in user fees. Income tax is a rationally indefensible concept. A fine for working, starting a business or in any way positively contributing to the economy.

Brian37 wrote:

If idiots like you set our current policies in place we wouldn't have our highway system or middle class because TAXES BAD!

No they be paid for with user fees instead of fines for working aka income tax.

Brian37 wrote:

Your let them eat cake and every man for themselves attitude is BULLSHIT!

 But you have the "we should get free stuff for not doing much" mentality. You want to take more than you give and have an socialist government that encourages this attitude. So it seems your the one that is saying "screw you, I'm not going to work or study, but your going to pay my bills".

Brian37 wrote:

All the top class has done for the past 30 years is shipped jobs overseas, exploded the pay gap and sat on their money and haven't done SHIT to invest here.

Why should they? You just want to steal any profits they make. They take the risk, you take the profits, what a deal.

Brian37 wrote:

 But you are right about one thing, government wont look out for us. 

Gee you finally get it. No one is going to look out for you. Just like you don't look out for me.

Brian37 wrote:

make our government care. I think we can and will do that.

The fact your kind actually believe it is possible for the government to care for you is 'ghetto mentality.' You're all just setting yourselves up to become victims of con-man politicians, that leave you with tons of broken promises and even more poverty, debt and misery.

 

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


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Quote:Damn...you really try

Quote:
Damn...you really try hard to be sarcastic.  Did you get your man pussy hurt or something?  You try too hard.

 

Pal, you don't know a thing about me.  "Man pussy?"  Damn, did you pull that from the 5th grade handbook you clutch underneath your arm pit for quick, ineffective, juvenile insults?  How I respond to you is about a fraction of how I should REALLY respond, but you make me laugh so, screw it.

"When the majority believes in what is false, the truth becomes a quest." - Me


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Burnedout wrote:Vastet

Burnedout wrote:

Vastet wrote:
^ Truth hurts, apparently. :D

Awww his little princely highness thinks he is smart because he can spout his latest readings from a comic book.....LOL..  You're funny. 

Lol. It's been decades since I even thought about comics. Grow up and read a novel.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Burnedout wrote:Brian37

Burnedout wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Burnedout wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:

 

Correctamundo......Government is only capable of stealing...er I mean taxing money from people who earn it and giving it to people who don't earn it but consume it by threats, intimidation, and outright force....all under the color of law. 

Steeling is what Somalia's few wealthly rulers do. Is that what you want? Protect only those with money? You don't need a government to protect money, Somalia would be a great place for your mindset. All you are advocating is money equals power.

Saudi's Royal family is not poor. That is merely money protecting the status quoe. Go live there since money is all you care about. Their Royal family loves money too.  China's communist government is protected by money.

All you are advocating is protection of one class via might makes right. Mob rule via money. You are advocating a monopoly and too damn dense to see it.

I am sick of bullshit like this.

If money is the only thing important to the measure of an individual then stick all the middle class and poor in ovens like Jews because that is your pathetic mindset.

I have value and the middle class and working poor do the bulk of the physical work, not the CEOs and the Shareholders.

Three classes are needed in a healthy open market. But I don't want to hear people like you bitch when the middle class and working poor did not wreck the car. Now we are using the same Constitution and same voting booth to compete for the drivers seat . BOO AND FUCKNG HOO.

Maybe if the dickheads in the banks and car companies and housing industry, and the fuckwads who overcharge for medical care gave a ratts ass, we wouldn't be in this mess.

If money is the only thing in this country that should have power in politics, then go work on making a law that anyone who doesn't own property or makes under a certain amount cant vote. Good luck with that.

I am sick of the self centered bullshit of the economic right as if they did everything by themselves. FUCK YOU.

The people that work for you and make you rich are worth something and we are fucking tired of being exploited and treated like numbers on a page. We vote to, get the fuck over it. That is how a free society operates. You don't own a fucking monopoly on politics or our economy or our voting booths.

MAYBE the top should think more about people instead of masturbating over money, it wouldn't have gotten this bad. But you have no fucking right to bitch about the rights of the middle class and working poor having the right to vote too.

BOO HOO, mommy the uppity paupers are getting angry. Should have thought about that before you wrecked the car.

 

 

Gee your highness, do you piss and moan that well naturally or do you have to practice? 

I am amused that every neo marxist plays the 'Go to Somalia' card.  FYI...Somalia is ruled by war lords....a form of neo tribal government, but government and very repressive at best.  You are spouting a misnomer. 

As for the problems of this country is because the government jumped into bed with the bankers and unions and car companies.  We don't have free enterprise and have not for many years.  For some reason (actually I know why) you like to fill your rhetoric with marxist religious doctrine about how the market screws everyone.  Well your highness, you have been lied to and you have no clothes.  Now...go have a nice day...Eye-wink

Oh stop it with the Marxist bullshit.

This has to do with pay gap, not with robbing the rich.

The rise of the Russian revolution was the same result as the fall. The rise of the middle class in America was a result as the same thing as it's 30 year decline.

None of what I am arguing has to do with advocating the end of private property or the end of a three class system.

I agree that government jumped in. Because WE allowed the monopoly of the rich based on the promise of a utopia.

I aslo agree that we don't have free enterprise. But not because of less regulation, or more regulation, but because of monopolies of power.

If those at the top will not self regulate, and simply stack the deck to buy off both parties, no amount of less government or more government will cure that monopoly.

IF IF IF IF IF IF IF

A HUGE FUCKING IF

If the people at the top would stop seeing themselves as separate from the rest of us, IF IF IF IF IF IF, they would STOP asking for government protection in the form of tax cuts and stop siting on the money, and invest here, we would do far better.

BUT what won't happen is more of the same. IF IF IF IF IF IF IF THEY WONT take it upon themselves to care, they cannot bitch when our Constitution gives those outside their class an equal right to vote, to compete for the same drivers seat they have dominated for the past 30 years that has caused the things you rightfully accuse them of.

Letting them do more of the same will not work. Letting them create more of a pay gap, and less government when they have shown they have no loyalty to those who work for them WILL NOT FUCKING WORK

If those at the top want less people on the government dime. If they want less poverty, if they want more independence THEY CAN DO THAT. Cant and dont want to are two different things.

Hording and exploiting and saying " I don't give a shit about you"  has not worked and will not work.

AND AGAIN, if they think money is the only thing that matters then they should work on making it illegal for non property owners and poor voting. Good luck with that.

Since that wont happen, then they better fucking wake up and accept that wealth is not the center of attention. Wealth is needed, but it is not worth a shit if it is as selfish as the state dogmatism of Stalin or the state religion of Iran.

WE the people, not WE the rich, NOT we the poor, NOT WE the atheists, not WE the Christians,

WE THE PEOPLE

The rich wrecked the car and the rest of the people want a shot at driving. CRY ME A FUCKING RIVER

Those who bitch about regulation now should have thought about that before others felt the need to ask for it.

our government is not the property of one class and bitching now about it wont work.

 

 

Maybe you are not technically spouting Marxism, but you are for a version of statism.  You want the government in control of everything.  You want cradle to grave government being nanny mommy and nanny daddy.  Effectively limiting or all but eliminating any freedom of choice in economic decisions.  Not for me.  Give me unfettered free markets baby.....

Speed limits are not a call to the government to control everything. But just like there are laws against phone marketing scams, those scams can start out legal, but with time laws can be passed to catch up with that adaptation, just like phishing scam theft laws had to catch up with changing technology.

What has happened is the corporations and individuals who caused this mess are protected by a party and big business pooling it's money to protect the laws that slant their way, that allow the abuse to happen.

And where did I say id didn't want a free market? I don't want an extraction market or an abusive market, which caused this mess. Just like I want laws against bank robbery. And why shouldn't the government step in?  Business has proven that when left to it's own devices, just like any human run organization, just like a political party or religion, because it is human run, it can and will go off the rails. It is not to say any of those things should be banned, but they should be regulated, just like speed limits. Dont confuse a regulation for Marxism.

What we have had are the foxes guarding the hen house. The regulations wouldn't be being called for if the abuse had not happened in the first place. Just like if you found out your local pizza joint hat a rat problem you ate ate, but the rats were in the back where you couldn't see them, you'd want a health inspector to shut that place down until they fixed it. Why, because not everyone who works in a business, or owns a business is going to be honest in how they do it. It is within our evolution to lie and cheat.

You are falsely accusing me of wanting all government and no free market. That is always the false cry of those who are too blind to see the abuse that has happened.

Our free market has always been here, but just like you can use a hammer to crack someone's skull in, the people at the top took advantage of that free market and dumped their losses on the rest of us.

And tell me how investing in this country would hurt the free market? How would reducing the pay gap hurt the free market?

And tell me how the 30 year pay gap explosion has helped us long term?

My taxes WILL go up if things go where they are going. The top however, if they get what they want, even after all the abuse they paid lawmakers to get away with, their taxes will go down. How is it that the poor and middle class, who continually see their wages stagnate or fall, see their hours get cut, while the top keeps making record profits, why should that be protected?

If it worked the way the right keeps selling, our economy never would have tanked and our economy would be booming and wages would go up and the middle class would grow. But the opposite has been the case for the past 30 years.

This isn't about ending the free market, this is about ending the abuse in the market. If there is any "welfare state" it would be the mafia mentality of the top bullying lawmakers or bribing them to give them welfare in the form of tax cuts. And what do they do when they get them? Create jobs? The ones they do go over seas, or create a few crappy wage jobs. But most of the time they simply sit on the money.

Corporate monopolies on politics don't work any better than a closed market like the USSR worked. A monopoly is a monopoly and abuse is abuse. There has to be oversight and checks and balances on ANY SYSTEM, private or public.

 

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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 Quote:Speed limits are not

 

Quote:

Speed limits are not a call to the government to control everything. But just like there are laws against phone marketing scams, those scams can start out legal, but with time laws can be passed to catch up with that adaptation, just like phishing scam theft laws had to catch up with changing technology.

What you fail to see is that those speed limits are used as bludgeoning legal weapons by the local cops.  They will have speed traps and use them as revenue machines, not for safety. Try going on a drive out in the country some time and see if you don't run into those, especially towards the end of the month, and they don't even give you any leeway in judgement.  Every law passed with the best of intentions is also used by government with the worst of intentions. 

Quote:
What has happened is the corporations and individuals who caused this mess are protected by a party and big business pooling it's money to protect the laws that slant their way, that allow the abuse to happen.

And where did I say id didn't want a free market? I don't want an extraction market or an abusive market, which caused this mess. Just like I want laws against bank robbery. And why shouldn't the government step in?  Business has proven that when left to it's own devices, just like any human run organization, just like a political party or religion, because it is human run, it can and will go off the rails. It is not to say any of those things should be banned, but they should be regulated, just like speed limits. Dont confuse a regulation for Marxism.

You are describing a system that is not a free market.  It is a protected market.  A truly free market is one in which those banks and corporations fuck up, they go under, not get a bail out.  Part of the reason many of those corporations get so big is that they are protected from losses and they continue to build an a government insured over built tower with a narrow base.  In effect, those corporations could not get that big without the help of government.  Then when there is trouble, they cry..."TOO BIG TO FAIL".  If the market were unfettered and not any particular company or sector favored by government, you would not have them growing that big. 

Quote:
What we have had are the foxes guarding the hen house. The regulations wouldn't be being called for if the abuse had not happened in the first place. Just like if you found out your local pizza joint hat a rat problem you ate ate, but the rats were in the back where you couldn't see them, you'd want a health inspector to shut that place down until they fixed it. Why, because not everyone who works in a business, or owns a business is going to be honest in how they do it. It is within our evolution to lie and cheat.

Except you fail to notice that the foxes in your analogy is the government.  What do you do against a corrupt government especially when they have the resources, money and guns of a whole government? 

Quote:
You are falsely accusing me of wanting all government and no free market. That is always the false cry of those who are too blind to see the abuse that has happened.

Not hardly, it is either free and unfettered or it is not.  That is like handing somebody a cup of warm water that contains just small amount of poison.  It is not much, but with enough time you die.  That is what has happened since 1913 in this country starting with Woodrow Wilson.  Too bad we did not have John Wilkes Boothe around for old Woodie. 

Quote:
Our free market has always been here, but just like you can use a hammer to crack someone's skull in, the people at the top took advantage of that free market and dumped their losses on the rest of us.

And what about the government being that hammer?  That is a prime example of not having free markets.  Again, you are making my point. 

Quote:
And tell me how investing in this country would hurt the free market? How would reducing the pay gap hurt the free market?

Again, more government intervention.  When you have a forced minimum wage, you create more unemployment.  It causes many businesses not to open in the first place and limits the worker by having fewer places to work.  If there were more REAL natural competition, there would be higher wages as more companies would want to go into business.  Plus, with a minimum wage, it has been the biggest cause of youth unemployment.  Many small businesses who would hire teenagers, 99.99999999% of them are not trying to earn a living wage, but just spending money, cannot because of that and it limits the experience and the opportunity to earn more when they do start into their first job due to lack of actual work experience. 

Quote:
And tell me how the 30 year pay gap explosion has helped us long term?

My taxes WILL go up if things go where they are going. The top however, if they get what they want, even after all the abuse they paid lawmakers to get away with, their taxes will go down. How is it that the poor and middle class, who continually see their wages stagnate or fall, see their hours get cut, while the top keeps making record profits, why should that be protected?

If it worked the way the right keeps selling, our economy never would have tanked and our economy would be booming and wages would go up and the middle class would grow. But the opposite has been the case for the past 30 years.

This isn't about ending the free market, this is about ending the abuse in the market. If there is any "welfare state" it would be the mafia mentality of the top bullying lawmakers or bribing them to give them welfare in the form of tax cuts. And what do they do when they get them? Create jobs? The ones they do go over seas, or create a few crappy wage jobs. But most of the time they simply sit on the money.

Corporate monopolies on politics don't work any better than a closed market like the USSR worked. A monopoly is a monopoly and abuse is abuse. There has to be oversight and checks and balances on ANY SYSTEM, private or public.

More of the same.  First, you do like that anyone happens make huge profits and make big incomes, then you want government protection of everyone, but what you don't see is that with government protection comes with hard control.  As for the USSR, there was a monopoly, it was the government.  NO single individual or group of individuals in power is smart enough to anticipate the whole economy.  That is why the arrogant pieces of shit in the government should quit trying, to out and get a real job.  Those individuals and companies/corporations who want protection from government should go under.  Why do you think your large box stores build just outside the city limits of the small towns?  The answer is simple, the local government will try to extort them using the power of regulation and taxes and the old city fathers have their businesses protected.  The big corporations you so hate are effectively being protected by the Federal Government in the exact same way those corrupt small towns try to ace out big box stores. 

 

 

 

 


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Vastet wrote:Burnedout

Vastet wrote:
Burnedout wrote:

Vastet wrote:
^ Truth hurts, apparently. :D

Awww his little princely highness thinks he is smart because he can spout his latest readings from a comic book.....LOL..  You're funny. 

Lol. It's been decades since I even thought about comics. Grow up and read a novel.

 

That's funny....that is what it looks like to me....you're not fooling anyone....sonny boy....


Vastet
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Burnedout wrote:Vastet

Burnedout wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Burnedout wrote:

Vastet wrote:
^ Truth hurts, apparently. :D

Awww his little princely highness thinks he is smart because he can spout his latest readings from a comic book.....LOL..  You're funny. 

Lol. It's been decades since I even thought about comics. Grow up and read a novel.

 

That's funny....that is what it looks like to me....you're not fooling anyone....sonny boy....

I'm sure lots of things are funny in the fantasy you call reality. But it just comes across as pathetic.
You aren't even a good troll. You're supposed to be annoying and piss me off, but you're not even making sense, and you're putting me to sleep.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Burnedout
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Vastet wrote:Burnedout

Vastet wrote:
Burnedout wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Burnedout wrote:

Vastet wrote:
^ Truth hurts, apparently. :D

Awww his little princely highness thinks he is smart because he can spout his latest readings from a comic book.....LOL..  You're funny. 

Lol. It's been decades since I even thought about comics. Grow up and read a novel.

 

That's funny....that is what it looks like to me....you're not fooling anyone....sonny boy....

I'm sure lots of things are funny in the fantasy you call reality. But it just comes across as pathetic. You aren't even a good troll. You're supposed to be annoying and piss me off, but you're not even making sense, and you're putting me to sleep.

 

There you go again.....you need to get out...better yet....go out and get laid....Oh...I forgot....you don't....well....have what it takes....hehe....


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Brian and Burnedout, you may

Brian and Burnedout, you may have already realized this, but you two are upset at pretty much the same thing: the fact that SOME rich people and SOME businesses/corporations have used their money and/or influence to get the government to use its power in their favor.

Brian, Burnedout and EXC are right: the main goal of most governments is to enforce laws and pass new ones. Government is merely an instrument of power and control. People in government jobs (generally) aren't rewarded for helping others: they're rewarded for making sure people follow the rules, regardless of what those rules might be. It's very difficult to get people to do something when their job depends on doing otherwise. (Very similar to a quote by Upton Sinclair: It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.)

And please, cut the insults, are we not trying to solve the same problem? Why is it that people seem to enjoy being so mean to each other? It just doesn't make sense...

For some reason, I also feel like throwing in this quote: "I was only following orders." (Adolf Eichmann, Director of Nazi deportation of Jews to concentration camps)

 

 


EXC
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blacklight915 wrote:And

blacklight915 wrote:

And please, cut the insults, are we not trying to solve the same problem? Why is it that people seem to enjoy being so mean to each other? It just doesn't make sense...

I think you have to understand politics is war by other means. If we were a little less evolved, we'd settle our differences with violence. Politics was invented as an alternative to killing off each other clan. It's in everyone's interest to have a central authority to keep the peace. Please understand, the role of government is to use deadly force to make people do or not do things against their will. So of course it gets mean and nasty.

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


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EXC wrote:blacklight915

EXC wrote:

blacklight915 wrote:

And please, cut the insults, are we not trying to solve the same problem? Why is it that people seem to enjoy being so mean to each other? It just doesn't make sense...

I think you have to understand politics is war by other means. If we were a little less evolved, we'd settle our differences with violence. Politics was invented as an alternative to killing off each other clan. It's in everyone's interest to have a central authority to keep the peace. Please understand, the role of government is to use deadly force to make people do or not do things against their will. So of course it gets mean and nasty.

 

I do concur with your statement EXC.  Politics is a form of (MOSTLY) bloodless warfare.  I myself have been very active in it.  I have either led or been apart of some things that almost caused it to not be bloodless.  I and about 3000 others caused the divorce of a state speaker of the house, caused a state rep to commit suicide, and one to fire shots at me when I was driving down the innerstate, and while doing that ran me off the road.  The motherfucker is now in federal prison.  We did nothing that was illegal or even unethical.  The assholes we did that too were in all sorts of conflicts of interests, illegal dealings, and many other shenanigans.  I sleep like a baby knowing I helped get some sleaze bags out of power.  Most people have no clue.  They think politics is everyone get together, run candidates and have an election.  What they don't realize is that there is billions and trillions of dollars in resources and every vote, be it in a legislative body, or in a city, county, state, or national election somebody wins and some body loses and somebody may even die. 


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EXC wrote:I think you have

EXC wrote:

I think you have to understand politics is war by other means. If we were a little less evolved, we'd settle our differences with violence. Politics was invented as an alternative to killing off each other clan. It's in everyone's interest to have a central authority to keep the peace. Please understand, the role of government is to use deadly force to make people do or not do things against their will. So of course it gets mean and nasty.

Huh, I've never thought of politics as an invented alternative to violence before...but, now that I see it in that light, I think I understand it a lot better. The connection between violence and politics certainly explains my related distaste for both, at least.

By the way, I really like your avatar picture EXC; it's quite clever.

So, is a central authority and/or government really necessary for society to function? As people gain more knowledge, do you think governments and deadly force will become less prevalent and less thought of as necessary?

It's funny, almost everyone I talk to doesn't like the idea of people using lethal force, and yet they all still think it's necessary. It's very confusing to me.

 


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Burnedout wrote:I do concur

Burnedout wrote:

I do concur with your statement EXC.  Politics is a form of (MOSTLY) bloodless warfare.  I myself have been very active in it.  I have either led or been apart of some things that almost caused it to not be bloodless.  I and about 3000 others caused the divorce of a state speaker of the house, caused a state rep to commit suicide, and one to fire shots at me when I was driving down the innerstate, and while doing that ran me off the road.  The motherfucker is now in federal prison.  We did nothing that was illegal or even unethical.  The assholes we did that too were in all sorts of conflicts of interests, illegal dealings, and many other shenanigans.  I sleep like a baby knowing I helped get some sleaze bags out of power.  Most people have no clue.  They think politics is everyone get together, run candidates and have an election.  What they don't realize is that there is billions and trillions of dollars in resources and every vote, be it in a legislative body, or in a city, county, state, or national election somebody wins and some body loses and somebody may even die. 

Wow, that's some pretty serious shit... Not that you need it, but you and the other 3000 have my thanks for getting corrupt people out of power. I'm very grateful there are people like you who are willing to take on those who abuse power and to expose their abuses. But...how and why do people become corrupt in the first place? How do they justify harming others? Do they just not care? These things have never made much sense to me... Do either of you know of any books or documentaries dealing with this stuff? (sorry for all the questions)

 


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blacklight915

blacklight915 wrote:

But...how and why do people become corrupt in the first place?

Because they are human.

 

 

blacklight915 wrote:

 

How do they justify harming others? Do they just not care?

 

I would say that for the most part they believe they are doing it for the best, whether it is best for them personally, their family, or their country. Politics is by its nature a very competitive field where the "its my team" dynamic is very strong. I'm not very proud to admit that I was once part of that. But the feeling of conquering the "other team" in an election is extremely exhilarating. We are by nature competitive and tend to be blinded by loyalties. When the initial idealism of politics is gone, it is often replaced by a cynicism that can either lead you to withdraw from it completely or join the corruption. Basically an "well if everyone else is getting theirs I might as well get mine" type of attitude. The whole thing is driven by the control freaks who simply want power and use idealists and cynics to their advantage.

 

blacklight915 wrote:

So, is a central authority and/or government really necessary for society to function?

To some extent. I was once an anarchist, and anarchy would be great if everyone was like me, but the threat of violent force that prevents a random person from breaking into my home and killing me is a good force. I don't think the power has to be terribly central for most things. The US was designed with the idea of decentralized power, and as far as basic community protection like police, fire and education, local governments still take on the brunt of the burden. However, that has not prevented the inevitable centralization of power. There is some necessity of basic police protection/fair method of resolving disputes with minimal violence and some method of protecting/dealing with foreign countries.

 

There are times when force is necessary or desirable, but I think it is important to recognize that by passing a law you are using deadly force. If you wouldn't be willing to personally use force to enforce a law, you really ought to reconsider supporting it. It is too easy to pass on the reality of enforcement to a faceless police officer when you think your neighbor should be thrown in jail for not getting the proper permits or for playing internet poker or smoking a joint.  

 

blacklight915 wrote:

As people gain more knowledge, do you think governments and deadly force will become less prevalent and less thought of as necessary?

Doubtful. Human history has shown that modern governments simply cushion their use of force in more pleasant terms. Yeah, most democracies are better than even the best monarchies, but over time it seems that power centralizes. The central government becomes increasingly powerful and increasingly corrupt. Destroying it seems to be the only way to regain freedom. We seem to have slowed down the power grab, but I think it is pretty obvious that people are becoming increasingly comfortable with a powerful central government to the point that many consider it a necessity even as they avidly point out the problems caused by centralized power.

 

I have little faith in the intelligence of my fellow man. I just hope to slow things down enough that I never find my ass going to jail because I found a law I refuse to obey. I don't particularly care to die a martyr in the name of future generations, I simply don't care about other people's kids that much.

 

blacklight915 wrote:

It's funny, almost everyone I talk to doesn't like the idea of people using lethal force, and yet they all still think it's necessary. It's very confusing to me.

Everyone hates force when it is used against them. It is a different story when it is targeted at someone else. When they are the victims, they scream and holler, when they are using the force to stop someone from doing something because they don't like it, then the force is being used for the "common good". It would be nice if everyone simply agreed to use force only when necessary and be willing to accept their fellow man even if they don't agree with or like everything others do. Even on a forum like this with generally intelligent people, there is a lot of resistance to the live and let live attitude. Everyone thinks they know better than everyone else and uses force to get their views accepted. 

 

I think a lot of people don't see it as lethal force. They see a fine or jail term and think its not that bad. Never mind that if you refuse to pay the fine cops will eventually show up at your door. If you refuse to go with the police, physical force will be used. If you try to resist, deadly force can be used depending on how efficient your resistance is. Obviously, the vast majority of people decide to pay the fine long before other consequences, but that doesn't change the fact that the fine is backed up with the ultimate threat of physical force. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Quote: It would be nice if

Quote:
It would be nice if everyone simply agreed to use force only when necessary and be willing to accept their fellow man even if they don't agree with or like everything others do.

That is what voting is for. But people like you bitch when others compete and win. Maybe if YOU would accept that others aren't like you and stop projecting your script of life on others, maybe WE could do what you said above. You are the economic version of theists and their martyrdom complex.

"Poor rich people, why why why cant we just be as rich as we want? Why cant we ignore the pay gap and just say fuck you to everyone else. We got ours, isn't selfishness the only goal a human should have?" Poor poor you........Such a shame that you own a business. You are starving to death aren't you?

I'd vote for Furry before I would vote for you. Worst I would have to put up with her is her god claims. You however, if your mindset gets what it wants, we'd all be working 40 1 hour jobs at 5 cents an hour. And the real Death Panels in the corporate cubicles  would make us all their indentured slaves.

 Too bad for you that us po people vote too. I'm one of those "uppity" peasants with the "ghetto mentality", and all to happy to bitch slap your selfish mentality.

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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blacklight915 wrote:Wow,

blacklight915 wrote:

Wow, that's some pretty serious shit... Not that you need it, but you and the other 3000 have my thanks for getting corrupt people out of power. I'm very grateful there are people like you who are willing to take on those who abuse power and to expose their abuses. But...how and why do people become corrupt in the first place? How do they justify harming others? Do they just not care? These things have never made much sense to me... Do either of you know of any books or documentaries dealing with this stuff? (sorry for all the questions)

 

I will tell you the story behind much of it.  Back about 1999 I was living in the state of Tennessee at the time.  The lawmakers in the state house wanted to install a state income tax.  73% of the people were against it, not just vehemently but violently.  I was one of them. 

Many of us grouped together and started to fight at all levels.  I would go to the capitol, and the home districts of many of those law makers.  After doing some investigating, it was found out that there were many people out there who wanted the money to do projects to benefit friends of those law makers.  Those beneficiaries ran the gauntlet of types of businesses and groups.  They didn't give a rat's ass what the majority of the electorate wanted.  They would use offers of good jobs after the lawmakers were out of office.  They would offer nice jobs to the lawmakers family members. 

We had talk radio taking the vetted information we had and would expose the pieces of shit crooked lawmakers.  When we exposed one state senator....you can google his name, 'John Ford' of Memphis...also in your google search, add 'Operation Tennessee Walz'.  The FBI came down on a number of them and 8 lawmakers both parties went to prison.  Mr. Ford, the piece of shit who fired shots and me and ran me off the road got the worst, a cool cell in a super max prison for threatening an undercover FBI agent with death.  I know several brave lawmakers who stood with us and were bodily threatened by leadership there.  One state rep, a lady even carried a pistol in a hidden holster with her at all times even into the capitol.    The Speaker of the House should have gone to jail but he managed to slip out of it. 

His wife was a PAID LOBBYIST.  She was making over $1 million dollars per year and gee...funny how every piece of legislation for every client she represented got passed.  Funny how that works.  Well...several of us managed to start calling all of her client companies and nicely told them that by hiring her, that was perceived as a conflict of interest.  With thousands of people calling that kind of scared them because with in 3 months, she lost all but 2 clients and she had to go to work for another lobbying firm and she kicked her Speaker of the House husband to the curb with divorce papers. 


The fellow who committed suicide, he had a little problem, exposing himself to little under aged girls.  The leaders would protect him and in turn, he would do anything they asked.  Funny how things happen when it is exposed...LOL. 
 

During some of the rallies and protests we had, we could get over 17,000 people in front of the state capitol with just 30 min notice and did it frequently.  We defeated repeated attempts to pass it and kept constant pressure on the powers that be and we also over turned 140 years of one party rule. 

Not bad for some old country boys....Smiling


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Brian37 wrote:Quote: It

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
It would be nice if everyone simply agreed to use force only when necessary and be willing to accept their fellow man even if they don't agree with or like everything others do.

That is what voting is for. But people like you bitch when others compete and win. Maybe if YOU would accept that others aren't like you and stop projecting your script of life on others, maybe WE could do what you said above. You are the economic version of theists and their martyrdom complex.

"Poor rich people, why why why cant we just be as rich as we want? Why cant we ignore the pay gap and just say fuck you to everyone else. We got ours, isn't selfishness the only goal a human should have?" Poor poor you........Such a shame that you own a business. You are starving to death aren't you?

I'd vote for Furry before I would vote for you. Worst I would have to put up with her is her god claims. You however, if your mindset gets what it wants, we'd all be working 40 1 hour jobs at 5 cents an hour. And the real Death Panels in the corporate cubicles  would make us all their indentured slaves.

 Too bad for you that us po people vote too. I'm one of those "uppity" peasants with the "ghetto mentality", and all to happy to bitch slap your selfish mentality.

If you hate it here so much...why don't you emigrate to a country more to your liking considering you are in the minority in your views?


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blacklight915 wrote:So, is a

blacklight915 wrote:

So, is a central authority and/or government really necessary for society to function?

 

I think as long as there are population pressures, there is going to be intense competition for precious few resources. So you at least need to have a referee and some rules. The alternative would be Somalia where you just have war lords ruling over whatever area than can control. For an economy to function, you can't have violence all time nor thieves in the government or outside government taking everything.

blacklight915 wrote:

As people gain more knowledge, do you think governments and deadly force will become less prevalent and less thought of as necessary?

The key is having less population pressures. Perhaps society can evolve where family size is controlled voluntarily. But for now, we live in a world of winners and losers(aka rich and poor, powerful and opressed) and constant conflict either as war or politics.

blacklight915 wrote:

It's funny, almost everyone I talk to doesn't like the idea of people using lethal force, and yet they all still think it's necessary. It's very confusing to me. 

It's the intense competition in the world. So if you can kill off or control with fear others, you often win. Might makes right.

What are laws? They're essentially a rule about when deadly force is to be used to control peoples' behavior and to force to do or not do something against their will.

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


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EXC wrote:I think as long as

EXC wrote:

I think as long as there are population pressures, there is going to be intense competition for precious few resources. So you at least need to have a referee and some rules. The alternative would be Somalia where

you just have war lords ruling over whatever area than can control. For an economy to function, you can't have violence all time nor thieves in the government or outside government taking everything.

That's true, even those who want a truly free market economy generally advocate for a government that establishes the rule of law and protects property rights. While most people already do these things voluntarily, it seems there are always some who don't.

EXC wrote:

The key is having less population pressures. Perhaps society can evolve where family size is controlled voluntarily. But for now, we live in a world of winners and losers (aka rich and poor, powerful and oppressed) and constant conflict either as war or politics.

It seems that real problem is a combination of overpopulation and inadequate resource distribution. Basically, there are too many people for our resources to provide for each what they perceive to be an adequate life. In addition, the resources that we do have are distributed in a way such that many people are denied such a life, even though it is (theoretically) possible for them to have it. Now, to be clear: I do not advocate or support forced resource redistribution (taxes, mafia "protection" money, etc.) in any way. I do, however, think that people are capable of voluntarily redistributing their resources such that forced redistribution will not be thought of as necessary.

EXC wrote:

It's the intense competition in the world. So if you can kill off or control with fear others, you often win. Might makes right.

Is this what Brian means by "alpha male mentality"? That most people are so focused on achieving dominance they fail to realize this urge exists solely because the only goal of genetic evolution is to increase survival and reproduction?

Brian37 wrote:

That is what voting is for. But people like you bitch when others compete and win. Maybe if YOU would accept that others aren't like you and stop projecting your script of life on others, maybe WE could do what you said above. You are the economic version of theists and their martyrdom complex.

"Poor rich people, why why why cant we just be as rich as we want? Why cant we ignore the pay gap and just say fuck you to everyone else. We got ours, isn't selfishness the only goal a human should have?" Poor poor you........Such a shame that you own a business. You are starving to death aren't you?

I'd vote for Furry before I would vote for you. Worst I would have to put up with her is her god claims. You however, if your mindset gets what it wants, we'd all be working 40 1 hour jobs at 5 cents an hour. And the real Death Panels in the corporate cubicles  would make us all their indentured slaves.

 Too bad for you that us po people vote too. I'm one of those "uppity" peasants with the "ghetto mentality", and all to happy to bitch slap your selfish mentality.

Brian, I imagine you will agree that the problem is not that rich people exist, but that SOME rich people view/use others as merely tools to increase their own wealth.

Beyond Saving wrote:

I have little faith in the intelligence of my fellow man. I just hope to slow things down enough that I never find my ass going to jail because I found a law I refuse to obey. I don't particularly care to die a martyr in the name of future generations, I simply don't care about other people's kids that much.

I have a hard time believing you care only about yourself and your family. Is my previous statement correct? Because, if it is, this is why Brian dislikes you so strongly.

EXC wrote:

I think you need to be a cynic and just accept that no one is ever looking out for you. People are not motivated to serve the public, they can only serve themselves.

This is not entirely correct. While it is true that people can only serve the chemical and electrical reactions in their brains, it is sometimes in other peoples' interests to look after you. Of course, this is only likely to happen with people who know each other and/or are in close proximity.

 


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blacklight915 wrote:Beyond

blacklight915 wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

I have little faith in the intelligence of my fellow man. I just hope to slow things down enough that I never find my ass going to jail because I found a law I refuse to obey. I don't particularly care to die a martyr in the name of future generations, I simply don't care about other people's kids that much.

I have a hard time believing you care only about yourself and your family. Is my previous statement correct? Because, if it is, this is why Brian dislikes you so strongly.

 

Oh I care about many people. And for those I care about I would do anything. I was talking about people in general. For example, I find it sad that people are being oppressed in North Korea but I am not willing to pick up a gun and go over their and get myself shot for the sake of giving them freedom. As my own government slowly eats away at personal freedoms, I find that I am increasingly unwilling to make substantial personal sacrifices to stop it, and I am unwilling to pick up a gun and fight a revolution even if our country was as bad as Hitler's Germany as the OP absurdly claims.

 

If people insist on continually voting away their freedom, I am inclined to let them to do so outside of voicing my opinion and perhaps, if I ran into an decent politician providing financial support. Instead I will continue to run my business and make a comfortable living despite the government until it becomes so burdensome that I decide it is no longer worthwhile. I will live my life in a way that harms no one and ignore the stupid laws government passes as much as I can. When a law is passed that I consider too cumbersome to my lifestyle, I will simply break it and not worry about it until some government goob decides to enforce it.

 

Fortunately for me I am a white male with disposable income so laws are much more rarely enforced against me and if they are I can afford a good lawyer. I feel kind of bad for the poor black guy who gets busted for having some pot because of the color of his skin and the area he lives in while I have little fear of facing any real charges even if I get caught red handed by a police officer. That is one of the big problems with laws against victimless crimes is that they are often selectively enforced. They are often used as a tool by law enforcement to target certain groups, often using the justification of "well we know they did some other more serious stuff but we don't have enough evidence to press charges on that". It is wrong, but I didn't vote for it.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Beyond Saving

Beyond Saving wrote:

blacklight915 wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

I have little faith in the intelligence of my fellow man. I just hope to slow things down enough that I never find my ass going to jail because I found a law I refuse to obey. I don't particularly care to die a martyr in the name of future generations, I simply don't care about other people's kids that much.

I have a hard time believing you care only about yourself and your family. Is my previous statement correct? Because, if it is, this is why Brian dislikes you so strongly.

 

Oh I care about many people. And for those I care about I would do anything. I was talking about people in general. For example, I find it sad that people are being oppressed in North Korea but I am not willing to pick up a gun and go over their and get myself shot for the sake of giving them freedom. As my own government slowly eats away at personal freedoms, I find that I am increasingly unwilling to make substantial personal sacrifices to stop it, and I am unwilling to pick up a gun and fight a revolution even if our country was as bad as Hitler's Germany as the OP absurdly claims.

 

If people insist on continually voting away their freedom, I am inclined to let them to do so outside of voicing my opinion and perhaps, if I ran into an decent politician providing financial support. Instead I will continue to run my business and make a comfortable living despite the government until it becomes so burdensome that I decide it is no longer worthwhile. I will live my life in a way that harms no one and ignore the stupid laws government passes as much as I can. When a law is passed that I consider too cumbersome to my lifestyle, I will simply break it and not worry about it until some government goob decides to enforce it.

 

Fortunately for me I am a white male with disposable income so laws are much more rarely enforced against me and if they are I can afford a good lawyer. I feel kind of bad for the poor black guy who gets busted for having some pot because of the color of his skin and the area he lives in while I have little fear of facing any real charges even if I get caught red handed by a police officer. That is one of the big problems with laws against victimless crimes is that they are often selectively enforced. They are often used as a tool by law enforcement to target certain groups, often using the justification of "well we know they did some other more serious stuff but we don't have enough evidence to press charges on that". It is wrong, but I didn't vote for it.

 

Beyond Saving,

There is a way to gain back your freedoms that keep getting voted away.  Get in the face of the politicians and lobbyists.  Physically harass them, hold protests in front of their place  of business, home, and legislative offices.  Organize groups of people to keep constant pressure on them to the point they go stark raving lunatic crazy.  If you read the post I posted a few posts back, I did and the group of people I was with changed things and scared the living shit out of the fuckers.  When they are calling you a 'terrorist', 'Thug', or what ever pejorative they can think of, then you are being effective.  If you can get them so pissed at you that they talk of doing violence to you behind closed doors or you even cause them to commit suicide...THEN you know you are really effective.  Hell...if you have to, get punitive.  File liens on their property by the thousands  for any number of dollars.  You can cause them so much hassle that they will at the very least be forced to negotiate with you. 


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Beyond Saving wrote:Oh I

Beyond Saving wrote:

Oh I care about many people. And for those I care about I would do anything. I was talking about people in general. For example, I find it sad that people are being oppressed in North Korea but I am not willing to pick up a gun and go over their and get myself shot for the sake of giving them freedom. As my own government slowly eats away at personal freedoms, I find that I am increasingly unwilling to make substantial personal sacrifices to stop it, and I am unwilling to pick up a gun and fight a revolution even if our country was as bad as Hitler's Germany as the OP absurdly claims.

If people insist on continually voting away their freedom, I am inclined to let them to do so outside of voicing my opinion and perhaps, if I ran into an decent politician providing financial support. Instead I will continue to run my business and make a comfortable living despite the government until it becomes so burdensome that I decide it is no longer worthwhile. I will live my life in a way that harms no one and ignore the stupid laws government passes as much as I can. When a law is passed that I consider too cumbersome to my lifestyle, I will simply break it and not worry about it until some government goob decides to enforce it.

Well, the OP really only claims America is "the worst thing to happen to the world since Nazi Germany"--which is still probably an exaggeration, but I don't really know enough about the state of the world to say.

Anyway, being "unwilling to make substantial personal sacrifices" is probably rather common, especially since you run a business--which, I imagine, takes up a considerable amount of time. That said, I think your opinion is quite worthwhile and you should continue telling others about it. I was thinking about the so-called "ghetto mentality" and became rather puzzled... I mean, few people actually enjoy doing nothing. Based on what I've read in my intro to psychology textbook, almost everyone finds some sort of work and accomplishment fulfilling: people (naturally?) like to feel productive and useful... Maybe they feel like they'll never accomplish much or that they're not worthy of accomplishment, and so they don't even try... There's clearly something wrong, I just don't know what it is...

 


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Burnedout wrote:Beyond

Burnedout wrote:

Beyond Saving,

There is a way to gain back your freedoms that keep getting voted away.  Get in the face of the politicians and lobbyists.  Physically harass them, hold protests in front of their place  of business, home, and legislative offices.  Organize groups of people to keep constant pressure on them to the point they go stark raving lunatic crazy.  If you read the post I posted a few posts back, I did and the group of people I was with changed things and scared the living shit out of the fuckers.  When they are calling you a 'terrorist', 'Thug', or what ever pejorative they can think of, then you are being effective.  If you can get them so pissed at you that they talk of doing violence to you behind closed doors or you even cause them to commit suicide...THEN you know you are really effective.  Hell...if you have to, get punitive.  File liens on their property by the thousands  for any number of dollars.  You can cause them so much hassle that they will at the very least be forced to negotiate with you. 

 

Sure I could if I was willing to risk having some powerful prick jam up the bureaucracy so that I couldn't get my permits renewed or find myself "randomly" being selected for audits every year. And suppose I am successful and get a few scumbags out of office, what are they replaced with? More scumbags usually, honest people don't last long in politics, voters prefer the politician who promises them everything for free to the one telling them there isn't enough money. Yeah I know, I kind of have a ghetto mentality when it comes to politics. Gotta love the irony. 

 

And the real problems in our country are coming from the federal level, which to seriously make any real lasting changes would require a lifetime commitment. Life is too short for that and mine will most likely be shorter than average, I would rather enjoy my life than bash my brains in playing whack a mole with corrupt politicians. Besides, doing so would be a hell of a lot of work and I am a very lazy person- I only do work that I enjoy. I believe it might be possible for me to make a difference, maybe even a big difference, but I am not willing to pay the personal costs. For those of you out there being active I wish you the best. I hope your efforts aren't in vain and you have more success than I did. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Beyond Saving wrote: Sure I

Beyond Saving wrote:

 

Sure I could if I was willing to risk having some powerful prick jam up the bureaucracy so that I couldn't get my permits renewed or find myself "randomly" being selected for audits every year. And suppose I am successful and get a few scumbags out of office, what are they replaced with? More scumbags usually, honest people don't last long in politics, voters prefer the politician who promises them everything for free to the one telling them there isn't enough money. Yeah I know, I kind of have a ghetto mentality when it comes to politics. Gotta love the irony.

The key to not having some powerful prick jam the bureaucracy is to hit with some numbers.  You don't have to outnumber them but you can scare the shit out of them.  I liken it to the way predatory animals will attack large heard animals.  They do it in small packs but work together.  It is just enough to get herd animals scared and ready to run in a direction.  Watch how wolves attack buffalo.  They pick one off and the whole pack attacks at once and subdues and kills them.  Likewise, a well organized group of people can subdue a politician or some bad boy bureaucrat or politician and politically or in a public relation sense tear them to ribbons.  Hell, I had a group of people who went after the Speaker of the House of the state of Tennessee and absolutely devastated him.  It wasn't that hard and all it amounted to was making one phone call per week.  You get a few hundred or a few thousand people making one call, it is enough to terrify the big boys......

If they think they want to come after somebody, you may be a smaller group but they don't know who to go after first and if they do, the rest hit back harder than the first time.  Usually most big corporations are big elephants scared of little mice and government assholes are even more that way.  I have even gone after police and police chiefs.  I led a few protests in front of a police chief's home and because we were not braking any laws and...had a running video camera there....they really couldn't do much.  Plus...we got the news media after them.  Even if the news is negative...it puts them in a negative light and they don't like the controversy. 

 

Quote:
And the real problems in our country are coming from the federal level, which to seriously make any real lasting changes would require a lifetime commitment. Life is too short for that and mine will most likely be shorter than average, I would rather enjoy my life than bash my brains in playing whack a mole with corrupt politicians. Besides, doing so would be a hell of a lot of work and I am a very lazy person- I only do work that I enjoy. I believe it might be possible for me to make a difference, maybe even a big difference, but I am not willing to pay the personal costs. For those of you out there being active I wish you the best. I hope your efforts aren't in vain and you have more success than I did. 

You are right.  The federal level is a big problem, but not an insurmountable problem.  The key to the feds is not the politicians but the people who fund them.  Start with the lobbyists and work backward.  See who the industry groups and some of the large individual companies.  Start your pr and anti lobby efforts aimed at the leadership of those companies.  Pick the key ones out and the word will travel fast.  Pretty soon, you have a stampede going in the direction YOU want, not them.  Hell...when I went after the Speaker of the House  of Tennessee, I even had the CEO of Northwest Airlines HIMSELF calling some of us back after all those calls were made.  He was freaked out as I could hear it in his voice.  It is just an effort of herding. 


EXC
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blacklight915 wrote:It seems

blacklight915 wrote:

It seems that real problem is a combination of overpopulation and inadequate resource distribution. Basically, there are too many people for our resources to provide for each what they perceive to be an adequate life. In addition, the resources that we do have are distributed in a way such that many people are denied such a life, even though it is (theoretically) possible for them to have it. Now, to be clear: I do not advocate or support forced resource redistribution (taxes, mafia "protection" money, etc.) in any way. I do, however, think that people are capable of voluntarily redistributing their resources such that forced redistribution will not be thought of as necessary.

Even if I suppose that a socialist form of government could make distribution go to those that need it the most(aka the poor), wouldn't population increases just offset any gains? So you'd be back to having tons of poor people living with food insecurity? Look at the massive gains in food productivity over the last 150 years, all been negated by increased population so the problem of poverty is just as bad.

If we distribute resource according to need rather than according to productivity, you just create a massive moral hazard where the productive become less productive and the needs and number of the non-productive increase over time.

The only solution is mandatory birth control and mandatory job training in order to receive any help from the government.

Also the leftists here complain about lobbyists using money to influence politicians. But if we had small government that took in little money, the lobbyists would have little to influence. The fact that we have big government makes it possible for lobbyists to have big power.

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


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EXC wrote:Even if I suppose

EXC wrote:

Even if I suppose that a socialist form of government could make distribution go to those that need it the most(aka the poor), wouldn't population increases just offset any gains? So you'd be back to having tons of poor people living with food insecurity? Look at the massive gains in food productivity over the last 150 years, all been negated by increased population so the problem of poverty is just as bad.

If we distribute resource according to need rather than according to productivity, you just create a massive moral hazard where the productive become less productive and the needs and number of the non-productive increase over time.

The only solution is mandatory birth control and mandatory job training in order to receive any help from the government.

Also the leftists here complain about lobbyists using money to influence politicians. But if we had small government that took in little money, the lobbyists would have little to influence. The fact that we have big government makes it possible for lobbyists to have big power.

Huh, these are some very good observations--especially the last one. However, since I am generally quite against any sort of forced action, I do not advocate or support a socialist government or government welfare.

I think that voluntary discussion and consensus are the best ways to solve any problem--and I'm not convinced there are problems that cannot be solved in that way.

The only times I would advocate and support the use of force are in defense of oneself, someone else, or one's property. I don't always support the property one though...

 


Beyond Saving
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blacklight915 wrote:The only

blacklight915 wrote:

The only times I would advocate and support the use of force are in defense of oneself, someone else, or one's property. I don't always support the property one though...

Agreed. I'm curious what exceptions you have for property though, could you provide an example where you wouldn't support force? Is it a question of degree of harm or type of property?

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X