Inquisition revisionism

es35
Posts: 1
Joined: 2011-11-08
User is offlineOffline
Inquisition revisionism

I've been arguing with a guy on atheist nexus who is claiming that most recent research on the inquisition has found that the medieval instruments of torture were made up in the 18 and 19th centuries by romantics and that there is no evidence for their use against heretics and others in medieval times.  Does anyone have authoritative evidence on this either way?

 

Eric Stone


Jeffrick
High Level DonorRational VIP!SuperfanGold Member
Jeffrick's picture
Posts: 2404
Joined: 2008-03-25
User is offlineOffline
One [1].

                              Only one I kow of,   the "iron Maiden" was an invention of the 19th century,  a museum needed a new display and so designed one and had it buildt.  The racks and heat tongs were real and often used.                       

  

"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."

VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"

If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?


Watcher
atheist
Posts: 2326
Joined: 2007-07-10
User is offlineOffline
One of my favorite midieval

One of my favorite medieval torture methods was the one where they place a large rat on the victim's bare stomach and put a cage over it.  Then they would hold torches very close to the cage.  The rat would be forced to eat through the person's stomach to escape.

But no, I don't know of any evidence that all these are made up.  I've never entertained the question before.  Interesting subject to research.

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


Kragdoll
Kragdoll's picture
Posts: 4
Joined: 2012-01-05
User is offlineOffline
the judas cradle

 the judas cradle is one of the funnier medieval torture devices that was once thought to be created during the spanish inquisition, so if medieval torture devices can be mistakenly attributed to other eras its possible that devices of other eras could be mistakenly attributed to medieval times.


Kragdoll
Kragdoll's picture
Posts: 4
Joined: 2012-01-05
User is offlineOffline
Jeffrick

Jeffrick wrote:

                              Only one I kow of,   the "iron Maiden" was an invention of the 19th century,  a museum needed a new display and so designed one and had it buildt.  The racks and heat tongs were real and often used.                       

  

also the common day iron maiden was created in the 19th century but it was based of an extremely similar design from the Ming dynasty, not trying to contradict you just thought it was interesting.


FurryCatHerder
Theist
FurryCatHerder's picture
Posts: 1253
Joined: 2007-06-02
User is offlineOffline
Burning people alive was a

Burning people alive was a favorite during the Inquisition.  My son has ancestors who left the planet that way, thanks to the Spanish Inquisition.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


ex-minister
atheistHigh Level ModeratorSilver Member
ex-minister's picture
Posts: 1708
Joined: 2010-01-29
User is offlineOffline
From Wiki

Torture

Inquisition torture chamber. Mémoires Historiques (1716)

As with all European tribunals of the time, torture was employed. The Spanish inquisition, however, engaged in it far less often and with greater care than other courts. The scenes of sadism found in popular writers on the inquisition are not based in truth. Modern scholars have determined that torture was used in only two percent of the cases, for no more than 15 minutes, and in only less than one percent of the cases was it used a second time, never more than that. From Wiki.

Although the Inquisition was technically forbidden from permanently harming or drawing blood, this still allowed for methods of torture. The methods most used, and common in other secular and ecclesiastical tribunals, were garrucha, toca and the potro. The application of the garrucha, also known as the strappado, consisted of suspending the victim from the ceiling by the wrists, which are tied behind the back. Sometimes weights were tied to the ankles, with a series of lifts and drops, during which the arms and legs suffered violent pulls and were sometimes dislocated. The toca, also called interrogatorio mejorado del agua, consisted of introducing a cloth into the mouth of the victim, and forcing them to ingest water spilled from a jar so that they had the impression of drowning (see: waterboarding).The potro, the rack, was the instrument of torture used most frequently.

The assertion that "confessionem esse veram, non factam vi tormentorum" (literally: ((a person's)) confession is truth, not made by way of torture.) sometimes follows a description of how, after torture had ended, the subject freely confessed to the offenses. Thus, all confession acquired by means of torture were considered completely valid as they were supposedly made of the confessor's own free will.

Once the process concluded, the inquisidores met with a representative of the bishop and with the consultores, experts in theology or Canon Law, which was called the consulta de fe. The case was voted and sentence pronounced, which had to be unanimous. In case of discrepancies, the Suprema had to be informed.

According to authorities within the Eastern Orthodox Church, there was at least one casualty tortured by those Jesuits who administered the Spanish Inquisition in North America: St. Peter the Aleut.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition#Torture

 

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


100percentAtheist
atheist
100percentAtheist's picture
Posts: 679
Joined: 2010-05-02
User is offlineOffline
es35 wrote:I've been arguing

es35 wrote:

I've been arguing with a guy on atheist nexus who is claiming that most recent research on the inquisition has found that the medieval instruments of torture were made up in the 18 and 19th centuries by romantics and that there is no evidence for their use against heretics and others in medieval times.  Does anyone have authoritative evidence on this either way?

 

Eric Stone

 

In the US history, perhaps the most [in]famous witch-hunt was Salem witch trials in which the instruments such as peine forte et dure were used.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peine_forte_et_dure

Early legalization of torture can be found in ad extripanda http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~draker/history/Ad_Extirpanda.html 

Also, you and you opponent in debate can find original pre-18th century torture instruments in several museums worldwide.  For example here: http://www.museums.nuremberg.de/mediaeval-dungeons/index.html

 

 


Atheistextremist
atheistSilver Member
Atheistextremist's picture
Posts: 5102
Joined: 2009-09-17
User is offlineOffline
Like Furry says

 

 

Burning was the way. The godly thought the evil ones would burn anyway so they got them started early. It took a long time, especially on windy days. Sometimes there were variations. 

There was poor William Tyndale who had a stake hammered up his arse and was then burned alive for daring to translate the Latin bible into English. I think something like that in modern times would tip me over into militancy. 

Now I think about it, maybe his punishment was insufficient. Would have been better if no one could read the vile thing. Same goes for the moronic bubble and squeak theology in the Koran.

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


ex-minister
atheistHigh Level ModeratorSilver Member
ex-minister's picture
Posts: 1708
Joined: 2010-01-29
User is offlineOffline
Where is the burning

Where is the burning documented? Has wiki been affected so as to under report torture methods?

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


Atheistextremist
atheistSilver Member
Atheistextremist's picture
Posts: 5102
Joined: 2009-09-17
User is offlineOffline
I'm not referring to the inquisition

ex-minister wrote:
Where is the burning documented? Has wiki been affected so as to under report torture methods?

 

specifically - but there was plenty of burning of heretics in England. 

 

 

Here's some inquisition stuff from a Cathar website but it's about the Inquisition...

 

In theory torture could be applied only once, and could not be such as to draw blood, to cause permanent mutilation or to kill. Boys under the age of 14 and girls under 12 were excused. In practice there was no one to enforce any of these safeguards, and they were all ignored. The accused were imprisoned, often for many months, before being examined. They were often kept in solitary confinement, in unsanitary conditions, in a dark dungeon, and without adequate heating, food or water. This was deliberate, and designed to ensure that most of the accused would already have broken by the time of the first examination. Only the strongest characters were able to face a tribunal of hooded figures who claimed to have heard witnesses and seen incriminating evidence. Most of the accused were prepared to admit anything, even though they did not know what the accusations were. Those who failed to admit their crimes were taken to the torture chamber and shown the instruments of torture. This too was designed to terrify and break them – the dark chamber, the horrifying instruments, the torturer-executioner dressed and hooded in black. If they still failed to admit their guilt they were then subjected to torture: men, women and children alike. Some people were tortured for years before confessing. Only the most exceptional could resist. Every day they risked being tortured to death.

 

Tortures varied from time to time and place to place, but the following represent the more popular options. Victims were stripped and bound. The cords were tied around the body and limbs in such a way that they could be tightened, by a windlass if necessary, until they acted like multiple tourniquets. By attaching the cords to a pulley the victim could be hoisted off the ground for hours, then dropped. Whether the victim was pulled up short before the weight touched the floor, or allowed to fall to the floor, the pain was acute. This was the torture of the pulley, also known as squassation and the strappado. John Howard, the prison reformer, found this still in use in Rome in the second half of the eighteenth century.

 

The rack was a favourite for dislocating limbs. Again, the victim could be flogged, bathed in scalding water with lime, and have their eyes removed with purpose designed eye-gougers. Fingernails were pulled out. Grésillons (thumbscrews) were applied to thumbs and big toes until the bones were crushed. The victim was forced to sit on a spiked iron chair that could be heated by a fire underneath until it glowed red-hot. Branding irons and red-hot pincers were also used. The victim’s feet could be placed in a wooden frame called a boot. Wedges were then hammered in until the bones shattered, and the ‘blood and marrow spouted forth in great abundance’. Alternatively the feet could be held over an open fire, and literally roasted until the bones fell out; or they could be placed in huge leather boots into which boiling water was poured, or in metal boots into which molten lead was poured. Since the holy proceedings were conducted for the greater glory of God the instruments of torture were sprinkled with holy water.

 

Whole families were accused. Family members would often be induced to incriminate each other in order to minimise the suffering of their loved ones. Minor heretics who confessed might escape with light sentences, whereas denial invited trouble. The inquisitor Conrad of Marburg burned every victim who claimed to be innocent. Hearings of the Inquisition denied every aspect of natural justice, and became ever more prejudiced as time went on. They were held in secret, generally conducted by men whose identities were concealed. In the Papal States and elsewhere, Dominicans acted as both judges and prosecutors. By papal command they were forbidden to show mercy. There was no appeal. The evidence of embittered husbands and wives, children, servants and persons heretical, excommunicated, perjured and criminal could be used, secretly and without their having to face the accused, their charges being communicated to the victim only in summary form if at all.

 

No genuine defence could be sustained. For example, if a husband provided an alibi, saying that his wife had been asleep in his arms when she was alleged to have been attending a witches’ sabbat, it would be explained to him that a demon had adopted the form of his wife while she was away. The husband had been duped. There was no way for him to prove otherwise. Spies were employed with the incentive of payment by results. Perjury was pardoned if it was the outcome of ‘zeal for the faith’ – i.e. supporting the prosecution. Loyalties were over-ridden so that obedience to a superior was forbidden if it hindered the inquiry, and those who helped the inquisitors were granted the same indulgences as pilgrims to the Holy Land. Any advocates acting for and any witnesses giving evidence on behalf of a suspect laid themselves open to charges of abetting heresy. No one was ever acquitted, a released person always being liable to re-arrest and a condemned person liable to a revised sentence with no retrial, at the discretion of the Inquisitor. In theory torture could be inflicted only once, but in practice it was repeated as often as necessary on the pretext that it was a single occurrence, with intervals between the sessions. Confessions were virtually guaranteed unless the victim died under torture. Then came the sentence, and execution of the sentence:

 

...The obdurate and relapsed were taken outside the church and handed to the magistrates with a recommendation to mercy and instruction that no blood be shed. The supreme hypocrisy of this was that if the magistrate did not burn the victims on the following day, he was himself liable to be charged with abetting heresy 

(Christie-Murray, A History of Heresy, p 109) .

 

Almost everyone fell within their jurisdiction. People were executed for failing to fast during Lent, for homosexuality, fornication, explaining scientific discoveries, and even for professional acting.

 

In order that no blood be shed, the favoured methods of execution did not involve the cutting of flesh. So it was that burning was popular, the stake having been inherited from Roman law. The estates of those found guilty were forfeit, after the deduction of expenses. Expenses included the costs of the investigation, torture, trial, imprisonment and execution. The accused bore it all, including wine for the guards, meals for the judges, and travel expenses for the torturer. Victims were even charged for the ropes to bind them and the tar and wood to burn them. Generally, after paying these expenses, half of the balance of the estate went to the Inquisitors and half to the Pope, or a temporal lord. This proved such an efficient way of raising money that it became popular to try the dead as well as the living. Bones were dug up and burned, even after many years in the grave. As in trials of the living, there were no acquittals, and the heretic’s property was forfeit. In practice this meant that the heirs of the deceased were dispossessed of their inheritances .

 

The trial of the Knights Templar demonstrates how unjust the Inquisition could be. The charges of heresy against them were almost certainly fabricated. No real evidence was ever produced to support the accusations. The best that could be managed was hearsay evidence such as that of a priest (William de la Forde) who had heard from another priest (Patrick de Ripon) that a Templar had once told him, under the inviolable seal of confession, about some rather improbable goings on. Inquisitors obtained the most damning evidence through the use of torture. In countries where torture was not permitted, the Templars denied the charges, however badly they were otherwise treated and however long they were imprisoned. As soon as torture was applied the required confessions materialised. Inquisitors refused to attach their seals to depositions unless they included confessions, so that only one side of the case appeared in official records. In France, where torture was applied freely, there were many confessions, and also many deaths under torture. Accused persons who retracted their confessions faced death at the stake as relapsed heretics .

 

http://www.cathar.info/1209_inquisition.htm

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck