Revelation

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Revelation

All religions can be reduced in essence to revelation, that is to say, one person communing with ‘god’ or his agents to gain knowledge. A religion may be based on a singular revelation, or on a series of revelations from a string of ‘prophets’. Revelation is then passed down as oral tradition, which becomes written tradition, or, as in more ‘modern’ situations, passed directly to written tradition.

 


My question would be, is revelation a valid source of knowledge?

What differentiates revelation from imagination or delusion? LC >;-}>

 

Christianity: A disgusting middle eastern blood cult, based in human sacrifice, with sacraments of cannibalism and vampirism, whose highest icon is of a near naked man hanging in torment from a device of torture.


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bfg

FurryCatHerder wrote:
luca wrote:
FurryCatHerder wrote:
It's a sign of respect.  Like not calling your parents by their first names.

So you don't call you parents by their first names...? Puzzled
Well, they are both dead so I don't call them by anything much anymore, but no, I didn't call them by their first names.  My son got into the habit and I'm not convinced it did him any good.
But you are saying it like it's a prejudice. I mean, if my parents deserve respect, I'll show them through my actions. I really don't unterstand what "not calling your parents by their first names" has to do with anything, and respect in first place. 
FurryCatHerder wrote:
luca wrote:
FurryCatHerder wrote:
The validity of a "revelation" is determined by its agreement with observed reality
It's funny because you say it like if you are not joking :D
Why would I be joking?
I knew you weren't, and that scares me.

FurryCatHerder wrote:
If you look at what "Jewish revelation" looks like and compare it to ancient pagan beliefs, we don't say that the Earth rides through the cosmos on the back of a turtle or elephant or whatever.  We don't claim that the sun is pulled across the sky by someone on a chariot.  We also don't get the =order= of the development of the cosmos or life on Earth wrong -- the Earth wasn't created first as the "center of the Universe", with Man being created before the beasts.

But it wasn't "jewish revelation", it was "jewish reelaboration/reinterpretation. The same is for the other things: the order is not wrong if you do interpretation work, genesis is not so far from the truth if again you do interpretation work... But they would be all wrong as that wasn't the meaning, from what I know.

FurryCatHerder wrote:
The Universe starts out as this "light" thing and progresses through a series of changes with Man entering the picture last.

Doesn't matter much, just a coincidence (if and truly if you want to compare things, which would be absurd). Even with that interpretation, I am not sure it's properly right.

FurryCatHerder wrote:
"Out of Africa" isn't all that far removed from people who believe that the Garden of Eden was where modern day Jerusalem is located -- that Jerusalem really is the "Bellybutton Of The World".

I am not sure what are you implying but I don't think I agree.

FurryCatHerder wrote:
There are some here who'll insist (right about .... NOW!) that this is just "rationalization", but for that ordering to have been gotten "right" 3,500 years ago -- this isn't "wrong", it's just "simple", and the language of a bunch of goat and sheep herders is NOT 21st century high energy Physics and evolutionary Biology.  These are a Bronze Age people, but those Bronze Age people at least knew that the stars in the Heavens came before they did, and that the "beasts of the field" came before them.

You can't be serious... They "knew" that stars and animals came before them only because the place was to be ready for who it was prepared, for the designed hosts. It has nothing to do with what you said.

FurryCatHerder wrote:
Now, there are people who think "mayim" means "water", like a lake, river or stream, but "mayim" is the root of "shamayim" which is "heavens".  And this is where people who don't understand the original language really start to fall all over themselves -- English is NOT Hebrew.  When Hebrew was brought into the modern world and stopped just being  a sacred language, we had to go out and get ourselves some more words -- some we picked up from English and other European languages, but the closest language to Hebrew with words to spare was Arabic.  That's how limited the language was, even as recently as 100 years ago.

I thought it was not only a dead, but a lost language too.

FurryCatHerder wrote:
Compare this to Christianity, and particularly the modern know-nothing branch that posts stupid images decrying Evolution -- Evolution isn't a threat to me because the Torah is NOT a Science manual.  For Science, I look to Science.  But even =not= being a Science manual, at least I know that before there was Man, there were other animals, and that doesn't disagree with Evolution.  I'm not stuck explaining how Homo Sapien is supposedly a more ancient species than Felis Catus, all praise be unto the great and wonderful Cat.  I don't have to claim that fossils were put there by The Devil to tempt me into disbelieving G-d.  I'm not stuck explaining, as Christians tried to suppress what Scientists found a few hundred years back, that the Sun really =does= orbit the Earth.  I don't have to strain orbital mechanics by pointing out that both orbit a common barycenter, so the Sun, in fact, actually orbits the center of mass of the Earth-Sun system, which is complicated by the masses of all the other planets.

All the religions go against science/human knowledge, in a way or another, yours too.

You said you was christian... Did you call "God" as "God" instead of "G-d", back then?


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luca wrote:All the religions

luca wrote:

All the religions go against science/human knowledge, in a way or another, yours too.

Not so much.  To the extent that religions are about =philosophy=, there is a lot less conflict than you'd imagine.  It's only when religions start to make claims about the physical universe that they come in conflict with Science.  The Torah makes no claims to being a science manual.  It just doesn't.

luca wrote:
You said you was christian... Did you call "God" as "God" instead of "G-d", back then?

There's nothing wrong with my writing God.  I'm not going to explode or anything.  I won't go to Hell.  Won't have to say a thousand Hail Moseses.  No fasting required.  The "g-dash-d" thing isn't a religious requirement and is frowned on by some Jews as being just plain stupid.  Just wanted to get that one out there.

There's no tradition within Christianity of venerating G-d's name in any particular way.  I'd say that I tried to be careful with the whole "don't take G-d's name in vain" thing, but to answer the question, for the most part I wrote G-d as "God" back in the day.

This isn't to say I wasn't a major heretic at the time -- I'm sure there were a great many ministers who were happy I stopped showing up at Christian bible studies and causing problems.  Never, ever, ever a child like me anywhere =near= comparative theology if you want happiness in a Christian community.  I read the bible for fun and devoured my grandfather's sermons every chance I got.  I was very much a problem child, when it came to Sunday school and the like.  Being a Jew hasn't stopped that -- I cause rabbis fits as well.  The best thing I could do for rabbis is be Orthodox, but I'd likely drive them crazy as well.  It seems to be a gift, I guess ...

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


luca
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but

FurryCatHerder wrote:
luca wrote:
All the religions go against science/human knowledge, in a way or another, yours too.

Not so much.  To the extent that religions are about =philosophy=, there is a lot less conflict than you'd imagine.  It's only when religions start to make claims about the physical universe that they come in conflict with Science.  The Torah makes no claims to being a science manual.  It just doesn't.

My imagination is wild. There is no agreement between philosophy and reality (except maybe for two or three branches...) -- expecially in this case where it's more than that, it's theology. It's not only about "science", or better, it is because whatever sacred thing we're talking about, Torah or not, in the end it will go mess with science or something else, contradicting it. If not, there would not be a religion.

FurryCatHerder wrote:
luca wrote:
You said you was christian... Did you call "God" as "God" instead of "G-d", back then?

... There's no tradition within Christianity of venerating G-d's name in any particular way.  I'd say that I tried to be careful with the whole "don't take G-d's name in vain" thing, but to answer the question, for the most part I wrote G-d as "God" back in the day. ...

It seems, here (where I live), that "in vain" is understood as "with bad words", blasphemy, or something like that. Not that it stops people from doing it. In fact, there's a dialect which is pretty fond of these things, but let's not go there.


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Before I start, I'd prefer

Before I start, I'd prefer that this line of discussion, which does seem worthwhile, move into another thread.  I think this thread is beyond redemption.

luca wrote:

FurryCatHerder wrote:
luca wrote:
All the religions go against science/human knowledge, in a way or another, yours too.

Not so much.  To the extent that religions are about =philosophy=, there is a lot less conflict than you'd imagine.  It's only when religions start to make claims about the physical universe that they come in conflict with Science.  The Torah makes no claims to being a science manual.  It just doesn't.

My imagination is wild. There is no agreement between philosophy and reality (except maybe for two or three branches...) -- expecially in this case where it's more than that, it's theology. It's not only about "science", or better, it is because whatever sacred thing we're talking about, Torah or not, in the end it will go mess with science or something else, contradicting it. If not, there would not be a religion.

"Philosophy" doesn't have to agree with any sort of =observed= reality.  I know there are some who'd like to differ, but I present my standard argument -- prove that you love your mother (assuming you do).  Can't?  Hmmmm.  Does this mean observed realit is useless?  No, only that "observed reality" has its limitations.

Does this mean that if we all limited ourselves to "observed reality"?  No, no more than it means we'd stop loving our mothers or believing that Cats are divine beings and our alien overlords.  Cats really =are= proof that G-d exists =and= that G-d is probably related to Cats, somehow.  Not sure.  Needs more study.  Can I have a large federal grant, please?

luca wrote:
FurryCatHerder wrote:
luca wrote:
You said you was christian... Did you call "God" as "God" instead of "G-d", back then?

... There's no tradition within Christianity of venerating G-d's name in any particular way.  I'd say that I tried to be careful with the whole "don't take G-d's name in vain" thing, but to answer the question, for the most part I wrote G-d as "God" back in the day. ...

It seems, here (where I live), that "in vain" is understood as "with bad words", blasphemy, or something like that. Not that it stops people from doing it. In fact, there's a dialect which is pretty fond of these things, but let's not go there.

There is a MUCH wider definition to "taking G-d's name in vain" within Judaism.  For example, I finished calendar year 2011 with less total revenue than expected because a large sale wind up moving into this year.  Praying for G-d to give me more revenue would be a vain prayer.  Praying for G-d to get me a new girlfriend -- another vain prayer.  Praying for warm weather =now= -- vain prayer.

One might argue (I've argued this, but I don't embrace it as "true&quotEye-wink that one of the objectives of making using G-d's name in vain a sin is to stop the foolishness where various peoples vainly offered things to their gods (and mine ...) as ways to compel their favorite deity (and mine) to act.  In other words, "prayer" became some kind of replacement for the pagan practice of pouring wine on rocks, offering grain to rocks, slaughtering virgins on rocks, and so forth.  It is as though Judaism is struggling to stamp out as much pointless religiousity as possible.

Judaism goes so far with the concept of "vain prayers" that making a blessing =without= doing the thing that's involved is a sin.  Years ago I had a Christian couple over for Passover and the wife said the blessing for washing ones hands ("Blessed are you, our Lord, our G-d, King of the Universe, who makes us holy by commanding us to wash our hands&quotEye-wink =without= washing her hands.  She was immediately sent to wash her hands because it would have been a sin otherwise.  THAT is how strict we are about the "taking G-d's name in vain" thing.  It is not just about swear words or joking about Cats being our alien overlords.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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Quote:There is a MUCH wider

Quote:
There is a MUCH wider definition to "taking G-d's name in vain" within Judaism.  For example, I finished calendar year 2011 with less total revenue than expected because a large sale wind up moving into this year.  Praying for G-d to give me more revenue would be a vain prayer.  Praying for G-d to get me a new girlfriend -- another vain prayer.  Praying for warm weather =now= -- vain prayer.

STILL missing the history of ALL prayer as claimed in human reality.

Your claim is "We don't ask for petty things"

So? Name me one human of any race or religion anywhere in the world, no matter what incantation they invoke as being magical, be it prayer of a Muslim, or Hindu or Christian or Buddhist, that isn't trying to curry some magical favor to a benefit of some sort?

First off you assume falsely that Muslims or Christians are not capable of praying for noble things like peace. I don't have a god myself and I want peace too.

Your prayer is not special, Muslim prayer is not special. Hindu prayer is not special. Buddhist prayer is not special. I don't care if any of them are trying to cross their fingers to win the next sporting event or get lucky at personal wealth. I don't care if any label"s  focus is on noble things like ending world hunger or war or violence.

It STILL all amounts to human superstition. Selfish or noble.

Human evolution is what is going on, not magic, not prayer, not Karma, not meditation. HUMANS, merely being humans. Humans filling in gaps instead of looking for common ground.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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FurryCatHerder wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

You appear to miss the point from 1,2 Maccabes and from Josephus that priests post Maccabes were of his clan not of the fictitious Levy tribe. Ever heard of the Hasmodeans? They became the priest kings of Judea. They are the rulers when Judea first appears in history in 78 BC. with the arrival of Pompey. They were the only priests. As the entire Mose/Aaron thing is a myth it is unsurprising the priests of the Yahweh cult are Macedonians. After all, what would the simpleton goat herders of Judea know? They were likely just pissed off that their savage rulers started another war with them in the middle.

You =are= an idiot.

Kings are from the TRIBE of Judah, priests are from the TRIBE of Levi.  Tribal membership is purely patrilineal -- the sons of Judah are in that tribe and can't magically become sons of Levi and vice versa.  And if you aren't in a tribe, you're just a generic Jew.

Besides being a bigot, you're an idiot.  You are, beyond a shadow of a  doubt, one of the least well educated, and most grossly misinformed of all the posters here, bar none.

You are getting your information from a book of magical tales. I am using the priest, Josephus, as my source. I am telling you what he said about the priests in his day, including himself, and how they came to be priests.

Of course he was only an educated priest fluent in Greek. What would he know compared to stories of magic and miracles that you believe in?

I can site my sources and have posted from Josephus on occasion to confirm that in fact I am reciting correctly. Have you ever read any of his material? And if not why do you think you have an opinion on the subject?

As to educated, of course I am familiar with the mythology you believers try to pass off as fact. I also know credible material that does not involve gods and magic and talking asses. I do agree I am not all that careful getting the details of fairytales straight. It is not worth the effort.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

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FurryCatHerder wrote:

...

There's no tradition within Christianity of venerating G-d's name in any particular way.  I'd say that I tried to be careful with the whole "don't take G-d's name in vain" thing, but to answer the question, for the most part I wrote G-d as "God" back in the day.

When did your god change its name to God?

Last I heard its name was YHWH LHM despite the nonsense translation as "lord god" in Christian custom.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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hcoas

FCH wrote:
Before I start, I'd prefer that this line of discussion, which does seem worthwhile, move into another thread. I think this thread is beyond redemption.

Well I gave my answer to LC. I simply think the thesis is false, so I have nothing more to say, and apparently so do others. It was a thread destined to theists, but there doesn't seem to be anyone willing to argue.
I am not sure to agree this is a worthwhile discussion. You say you like science, and science posts, but this is not a science forum. Sometimes true, people like vastet post something scientific, but you could easily go on http://www.thescienceforum.com/ or http://www.scienceforums.net/ which are more inherent your explicited passions. So at the moment I am pessimist because it seems that you say you value science, but contemporaneously keep human investigation valid only in limited fields -- and I don't want to be rude but it verily seems that it's so because of religion.

FCH wrote:
"Philosophy" doesn't have to agree with any sort of =observed= reality. I know there are some who'd like to differ, but I present my standard argument -- prove that you love your mother (assuming you do). Can't? Hmmmm. Does this mean observed realit is useless? No, only that "observed reality" has its limitations.

Whoa, not so fast, wait a moment. First, philosophy has various definition. Usually it's something like "know the truth", "know the reality" or something on these lines. I don't know what's yours.
Second, you know the routine, someone should present a definition of love which is testable, if not we're prone to get into troubles later. And really it depends on other things, for example how deep or how precise you want to the things to be.
"Can I have a large federal grant, please?" No, but "does this mean that if..." if what? I don't see a "then"... I may concede that a "else", a "fi" or a "}" are optional, but at least finish the if itself Eye-wink

FCH wrote:
It is not just about swear words or joking about Cats being our alien overlords.

Okay, still it seems you have little consideration of other "pagan" religions.


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Brian37 wrote:Quote:There is

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
There is a MUCH wider definition to "taking G-d's name in vain" within Judaism.  For example, I finished calendar year 2011 with less total revenue than expected because a large sale wind up moving into this year.  Praying for G-d to give me more revenue would be a vain prayer.  Praying for G-d to get me a new girlfriend -- another vain prayer.  Praying for warm weather =now= -- vain prayer.

STILL missing the history of ALL prayer as claimed in human reality.

Your claim is "We don't ask for petty things"

So? Name me one human of any race or religion anywhere in the world, no matter what incantation they invoke as being magical, be it prayer of a Muslim, or Hindu or Christian or Buddhist, that isn't trying to curry some magical favor to a benefit of some sort?

First off you assume falsely that Muslims or Christians are not capable of praying for noble things like peace. I don't have a god myself and I want peace too.

Sigh.

Jewish prayer does NOT NOT NOT serve the purpose of trying to compel G-d to act in any way.  Noble or not so noble.

If you wan to make up things about other religions, have at it.  My impression some times is that you're like a reformed drunk at an AA meeting -- if you don't keep talking smack about the Demon Rum you might just go to the store, buy a bottom, enjoy a few drinks, and discover that Rum is horrible, but a little Creme de Menthe in your coffee hits the spot Eye-wink

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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FurryCatHerder wrote:Brian37

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
There is a MUCH wider definition to "taking G-d's name in vain" within Judaism.  For example, I finished calendar year 2011 with less total revenue than expected because a large sale wind up moving into this year.  Praying for G-d to give me more revenue would be a vain prayer.  Praying for G-d to get me a new girlfriend -- another vain prayer.  Praying for warm weather =now= -- vain prayer.

STILL missing the history of ALL prayer as claimed in human reality.

Your claim is "We don't ask for petty things"

So? Name me one human of any race or religion anywhere in the world, no matter what incantation they invoke as being magical, be it prayer of a Muslim, or Hindu or Christian or Buddhist, that isn't trying to curry some magical favor to a benefit of some sort?

First off you assume falsely that Muslims or Christians are not capable of praying for noble things like peace. I don't have a god myself and I want peace too.

Sigh.

Jewish prayer does NOT NOT NOT serve the purpose of trying to compel G-d to act in any way.  Noble or not so noble.

If you wan to make up things about other religions, have at it.  My impression some times is that you're like a reformed drunk at an AA meeting -- if you don't keep talking smack about the Demon Rum you might just go to the store, buy a bottom, enjoy a few drinks, and discover that Rum is horrible, but a little Creme de Menthe in your coffee hits the spot Eye-wink

What do you think religion is concocted by? Human imagination in making things up as you go along. When someone points out something contradictory rather than face the prospect of being wrong, moving the goal posts is much easier.

If prayer does not "compel" claimed god to do anything, then what is the point? If his script cannot be changed then prayer is nothing but the placebo I am rightly accusing it of being.

Playing the game of semantics of "compel" vs "appeal" vs "ask" is all the same thing, be it selfish or noble regardless if a Muslim or Jew or Christian or Hindu do it.

It still amounts to talking to yourself in the false hope that you can appeal to a fictional being to advance your own wishes, noble or not.

I have no doubt that you truly believe that what you deem as prayer is not about "compelling". Don't care.

What no label has is is evidence that there is any type of disembodied thinking entity to talk to, whatever the purpose of that "talk" the believer wants to claim the intent is.

It is human gap filling, it always has been. It is you wanting something to save you from a reality none of us will escape. Prayer FOR WHATEVER INTENT is the same thing. It is merely talking to yourself thinking you are actually making a difference. You are stuck on intent and label and I don't care who does it or why they do it. Talking to yourself is talking to yourself.

When a Christian prays they are talking to themselves.

When a Muslim prays they are talking to themselves.

When you pray you are taking to yourself.

I don't care what the intent any of you claim is. It merely amounts to a superstition.

You could pray to a Snarfwidget and claim "I am not trying to compel them to do anything"

Don't care.

Kids ask Santa for presents all the time. Are they demanding what they want, or are they asking? Some kids even ask for noble things like food on the table or heath for their family. Most kids are not making demands, but none of them are talking to a real being.

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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FurryCatHerder wrote:

Sigh.

Jewish prayer does NOT NOT NOT serve the purpose of trying to compel G-d to act in any way.  Noble or not so noble.

If you wan to make up things about other religions, have at it.  My impression some times is that you're like a reformed drunk at an AA meeting -- if you don't keep talking smack about the Demon Rum you might just go to the store, buy a bottom, enjoy a few drinks, and discover that Rum is horrible, but a little Creme de Menthe in your coffee hits the spot Eye-wink

Perhaps you could explain more clearly what  you mean. I google "jewish prayer" and found only things that contradict what you appear to be claiming.

This turns out to be an all purpose wishing list site.

www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Judaism/Jewish-Prayers.aspx

There appear to be some twenty categories of begging categories.

How do these not contradict your statements? I have taken the liberty of bold facing the praying for healing, i.e. the change the course of reality, to perform a miracle.

From judaism.about.com/od/reformjudaismfaq/f/pray_ill.htm I get

Question: Is there a Jewish prayer I can recite for my friend with cancer?

Dear Rabbi Goldwasser,
I have a Jewish friend whose cancer has spread. She has many friends of different religions who are praying for her. She has no problem with this as all prayers help. She was saying there must be equivalent prayers in our heritage. Years ago, when my husband was ill, I was given a poster from a Rabbi from Young Israel. It is the Asher Yotzar prayer. Is this a suitable prayer/poster to pass on to her in her circumstance?
Thank you for helping, Marcia

Answer: Dear Marcia,

Thank you for your letter. You ask about an appropriate Jewish prayer for the healing of your Jewish friend who is battling cancer. You also ask about a specific prayer, "Asher Yotzar."

This prayer ("Asher Yatzar" in the more common Sephardic pronunciation) traditionally is recited every day by Jews as an acknowledgement of the miracle of the human body and of our indebtedness to God for its design and function. It is not intended as a prayer for the sick. Rather, it is a prayer that anyone can say in witness of their own body's intricacies and continued existence.

Here is a modern translation of "Asher Yatzar":

"Blessed are You, Eternal our God, who formed the human body with wisdom and placed within it a miraculous combination of openings and organs. It is evident and known before Your honored throne, that if only one of them should be opened or blocked at the wrong time, it would be impossible to exist and stand before You. Blessed are You, Eternal One, the healer of all flesh and worker of wonders."

Traditionally, this prayer is recited after using the bathroom and also as part of the blessings at the beginning of morning worship.

Judaism does have a tradition of prayers for the sick. The most familiar of these is the "Mi Shebeirach" prayer that is usually recited during the service for the reading of the Torah. Here is a translation of the version used in many Reform congregations:

"May the One who blessed our ancestors, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel and Leah, bless [names] with healing. May the Holy One have mercy on them, heal, strengthen and revive them. Speedily grant them a complete healing, a healing of the soul and a healing of the body, along with all who are ill, now and swiftly. And let us say: Amen."

I would also recommend a prayer found in the Torah (Numbers 12:13). When Moses' sister, Miriam, is struck by disease, Moses offers the shortest prayer in the Hebrew Bible:

"Eil na rafa na la."

"Please, God, please heal her."

You may use this simple prayer to speak eloquently your hope and prayer for your friend. I hope it brings comfort and strength to you and your friend.

Best wishes,
Rabbi Jeffrey W. Goldwasser

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Brian37 wrote:FurryCatHerder

Brian37 wrote:

FurryCatHerder wrote:
If you wan to make up things about other religions, have at it.  My impression some times is that you're like a reformed drunk at an AA meeting -- if you don't keep talking smack about the Demon Rum you might just go to the store, buy a bottom, enjoy a few drinks, and discover that Rum is horrible, but a little Creme de Menthe in your coffee hits the spot Eye-wink

What do you think religion is concocted by? Human imagination in making things up as you go along. When someone points out something contradictory rather than face the prospect of being wrong, moving the goal posts is much easier.

If prayer does not "compel" claimed god to do anything, then what is the point? If his script cannot be changed then prayer is nothing but the placebo I am rightly accusing it of being.

Playing the game of semantics of "compel" vs "appeal" vs "ask" is all the same thing, be it selfish or noble regardless if a Muslim or Jew or Christian or Hindu do it.

It still amounts to talking to yourself in the false hope that you can appeal to a fictional being to advance your own wishes, noble or not.

I have no doubt that you truly believe that what you deem as prayer is not about "compelling". Don't care.

You realize that all of your protests about "prayer" and G-d come =very= much across, to me at least, as someone who is fighting very hard to not backslide into being religious?  Like, if you just stopped protesting for a minute, for a single 60 second interval, you'd find yourself back in church with a rosary in one hand and a cup of coffee in the other trying to find out where the sacramental wine is kept.  You're certainly not going to convince =me= because I wake up in the morning, look out into the Universe, and I see G-d all over the place.  Do you know one of the reasons I love Judaism so much?  I can get out my handy-dandy prayer book, open the table of contents, and find a prayer for whatever is going on, even if it is "I just took a shit".

And you know what?  Let's assume you're right -- prayer really is just talking to myself.  I'm perfectly content to keep on talking to myself because it maintains a sense of awe and wonder that is part and parcel of who I am.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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FurryCatHerder wrote:Brian37

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

FurryCatHerder wrote:
If you wan to make up things about other religions, have at it.  My impression some times is that you're like a reformed drunk at an AA meeting -- if you don't keep talking smack about the Demon Rum you might just go to the store, buy a bottom, enjoy a few drinks, and discover that Rum is horrible, but a little Creme de Menthe in your coffee hits the spot Eye-wink

What do you think religion is concocted by? Human imagination in making things up as you go along. When someone points out something contradictory rather than face the prospect of being wrong, moving the goal posts is much easier.

If prayer does not "compel" claimed god to do anything, then what is the point? If his script cannot be changed then prayer is nothing but the placebo I am rightly accusing it of being.

Playing the game of semantics of "compel" vs "appeal" vs "ask" is all the same thing, be it selfish or noble regardless if a Muslim or Jew or Christian or Hindu do it.

It still amounts to talking to yourself in the false hope that you can appeal to a fictional being to advance your own wishes, noble or not.

I have no doubt that you truly believe that what you deem as prayer is not about "compelling". Don't care.

You realize that all of your protests about "prayer" and G-d come =very= much across, to me at least, as someone who is fighting very hard to not backslide into being religious?  Like, if you just stopped protesting for a minute, for a single 60 second interval, you'd find yourself back in church with a rosary in one hand and a cup of coffee in the other trying to find out where the sacramental wine is kept.  You're certainly not going to convince =me= because I wake up in the morning, look out into the Universe, and I see G-d all over the place.  Do you know one of the reasons I love Judaism so much?  I can get out my handy-dandy prayer book, open the table of contents, and find a prayer for whatever is going on, even if it is "I just took a shit".

And you know what?  Let's assume you're right -- prayer really is just talking to myself.  I'm perfectly content to keep on talking to myself because it maintains a sense of awe and wonder that is part and parcel of who I am.

Using myth to prop up your sense of awe, is silly. I have the same sense of awe without making u fictional beings.

I think there ARE pretty things in life and the universe. A cute kitten. A beautiful sunset. A  clear night and a sky with a full moon and stars. All of it pretty and makes me go "wow". But I don't ignore nasty things like cancer, or tusnamis or black holes, or even human cruelty. I think you have to ignore that to prop up your sky daddy,

I don't need to have a ficitonal god or a superstition nor do I need to talk to myself to have a sense of awe.

And you think because I "Protest" so much that somehow I secretly want to be religious? Absurd.

I am no more "protesting" about any god claim much less yours. Sorry, but being passionate about the earth not being flat and the moon not being made of cheese is not "protesting". Anymore than it would be "protesting" to say storks don't bring babies.

Don't assume I am right about prayer, don't take my word for it. If it worked like ANYONE CLAIMED, it could be harnessed and patented and used like gas or computers. And it could be taught like entropy and DNA.

Muslim prayer, Hindu prayer, Christian prayer and your prayer is nothing but humans taking to themselves. Prayer existed in prior polytheism when humans prayed to volcanos and animals long before the written tradition. It is a gap filling side affect of our species evolution.

I am no more "protesting" than I would be "protesting" if someone claimed the Chargers won the Superbowl when that would be a bullshit claim since the Packers did.

You are not special because you are Jewish. No one is special because they are Muslim. God claims existed prior to your human invented myth. Your holy book is merely a book of myth and is as true as the Egyptian gods or Thor or Atlas.

Once you, or anyone, polytheist or monotheist,  postulate a non material being you are screwed to me as far as s defense, REGARDLESS of who is claiming it or what tradition they claim to come from. I have no desire like you, to hold on to an old story to have a sense of awe about the world around me.

All you are proving to me is that humans can be gullible and gullibility has always been a trait of human behavior  and I don't see you doing anything differently than the Mayans did with making up their gods, or Hindus did in making up their gods, or Christians or Muslims do in making up their gods.

Human history was not invented by Hebrews or Christians or Muslims. Evolution in reality produces humans who like making up stories.

I am not accusing you of being a bad person, just accusing you of being flawed in your thinking because gap filling has always been a  part of the same evolution.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Brian,Slowly and with

Brian,

Slowly and with feeling -- who are you trying to convince of all that?


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FurryCatHerder wrote:

Brian,

Slowly and with feeling -- who are you trying to convince of all that?

So it is ok for you to be passionate about sticking to your story that a Jew saved your life by showing you the light. But when someone else with a different position has that same passion, they are only fooling themselves?

This also misses the point that I have already ceded that you may go your whole life staying a Jew. But there are two reasons that I am passionate.

If I seek to maintain anything worthy of every human's support, at a minimum the attitude that questioning is not a bad thing, is good for all of humanity.

But I also do it so that spectators get more than just one side. If you have nothing to fear then the open market of ideas is where both of us should be.

I am not a lost soul. I am not angry at fictional gods. I am merely the guy reminding the rest of humanity what year it is and how far humans have advanced beyond ancient stories. I am not stuck in the past.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Brian,I've never been

Brian,

I've never been =badgered= into changing a religious belief, and I suspect that very few people ever have.  Lots of emphasis on "very few people ever have."  It's your repeated interjections that make me question whether or not something more is going on.

As for the spectators, this is an Atheist website and there is no mistaking that fact.

 

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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FurryCatHerder wrote:

Brian,

I've never been =badgered= into changing a religious belief, and I suspect that very few people ever have.  Lots of emphasis on "very few people ever have."  It's your repeated interjections that make me question whether or not something more is going on.

As for the spectators, this is an Atheist website and there is no mistaking that fact.

 

We have far more readers than daily posters. If you look at the stats at the bottom of the page home page, on the left down at the bottom,  you see that at any given time there are on average 100 people. That doesn't mean only 100 people a day, just 100 people at any given time. So that is thousands of viewers a day because the same people don't stay on all day.

And if my "badgering" bothers you that much, then DON'T torture yourself by reading my posts or posting at the website yourself. YOU came here and no one is forcing you to post here.

You use the word "badger" because you you cant stand that someone is challenging your "specialness".

You know damned well you don't think I am special because I claim the label atheist. So don't be a hypocrite and claim you are special because you are Jewish.

And I said before, you may go your entire life being Jewish. I think you are wasting your time. But that is secondary to the REALITY that we are a planet of 7 billion people.

No human is special by proxy of race, religion or national origin. Atheists are not special either.

Humans are individuals and if you gave a shit about treating humans as such you'd understand why having a Jewish state is a bad idea. If it is not ok for Muslims to have a Muslim state, or atheists to have an atheist state, or Christians to have a Christian state, then don't be a fucking hypocrite yourself.

 

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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...

Lion IRC wrote:

When someone sees a miracle, has a road to Damascus, voice of God, burning bush, zen-like satori moment, sees a ghost, or whatever, and they actually do find themselves having experienced an event which meets their own skeptical threshold of "undeniability", the irony is that nobody will believe them.

 

According to the former atheists OWN standard of empirical, material proof, their epiphany, however real, will be dismissed like those of every other "Saul of Tarsus" as an epileptic fit, wishful thinking, delusion, psychosis... or just something which science will hopefully one day work out had nothing to do with God. 

 

Then God should come up with a better way of proving Himself, and if any other deity is up there, they should do the same.  If revelation is the only evidence, then there's no way of knowing if the person really had an encounter with a deity.  There are plenty of plausible natural explanations.  God should come up with repeated public displays in the present, so scientists have something to work with.  If there is a God, He must be shy. 

There are limitations to this approach too, because scientists might only be able to prove that a superpowerful alien was there, not the creator of the universe (unless the being could show us how it made the universe and prove that we weren't having a psychotic episode).  Right now the believer only has faith to rely on.

 

 


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Lee2216 wrote:

Philosophicus wrote:

Lee2216 wrote:

General revelation is the disclosure of God in nature, in providential history, and in the moral law within the heart, whereby all persons at all times and places gain a rudimentary understanding of the Creator and his moral demands. Special revelation is revealed in scripture thru the holy spirit. On the other hand, imagination is the ability of forming mental images, sensations and concepts, in a moment when they are not perceived through sight, hearing or other senses. A delusion is a false belief held with absolute conviction despite superior evidence which is atheism in a nut shell. So, God is clearly revealed to us through our senses rather than our imagination or delusion.

 

Let's start with special revelation.  How do you know that the holy spirit spoke to the people in The Bible?  Maybe they lied or were hallucinating, or were wrong; or the whole story or part of it was made up.  It could have been intended as social commentary for their time, like Nostradamus. 

God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” God also said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’ Exodus 3:14-15

  

You're dodging the question.  I know that your scripture says that God spoke to humans; I wanted you to prove to me that He really did speak to humans, to prove that those scripture verses are true.

 

 


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FurryCatHerder wrote:

...

You realize that all of your protests about "prayer" and G-d come =very= much across, to me at least, as someone who is fighting very hard to not backslide into being religious?  Like, if you just stopped protesting for a minute, for a single 60 second interval, you'd find yourself back in church with a rosary in one hand and a cup of coffee in the other trying to find out where the sacramental wine is kept.  You're certainly not going to convince =me= because I wake up in the morning, look out into the Universe, and I see G-d all over the place.  Do you know one of the reasons I love Judaism so much?  I can get out my handy-dandy prayer book, open the table of contents, and find a prayer for whatever is going on, even if it is "I just took a shit".

And you know what?  Let's assume you're right -- prayer really is just talking to myself.  I'm perfectly content to keep on talking to myself because it maintains a sense of awe and wonder that is part and parcel of who I am.

You appear to have a problem understanding what you are saying. Prayer is indistinguishable from talking to yourself. That it gives some sort of fuzzy feeling is no different from reading poetry. In fact with practice usually meditation of some sort the fuzzy feeling can be invoked on demand. As the feeling can be generated by many sources it is not unique to prayer. So the feeling does not make prayer different.

So all you have found is a way to invoke a pleasurable feeling that works for you. Many people use prayer but type of prayer or the god/gods it is associated with yields the same results.

Thus it is indistinguishable by you from talking to yourself. People who don't care about that and attribute it to some god or other is what makes a believer. No harm, no foul. It is just annoying to find people who are actually take themselves seriously and are unable to see what they are really doing.

Simiarly seeing god every place makes everything god and thus again says nothing. It is not a distinguishable, definable characteristic merely a feeling which is quite common. It has no meaning. If everything were blue saying everything is blue says nothing. Again you are simply inducing a feeling which has many non-religious routes as well as all religions.

You have made an elementary mistake in assuming the first method you found that worked for you makes it other than just something that works for you. It is not universal, it is yours personally. Nothing more. Christians "explain" its personal as the gift of faith. Centuries of attempts have failed to find an intellectual process behind it. Thus, when you promote your personal experience as something beyond you, you quite reasonablly earn the sneers of those who have been there and done that some more than three times.

You have expressed a view of Judaism which is adding Moses to Universal Unitarianism a modern western ethical system attributed to but totally contradictory to the Torah. That some rebbe slants the Torah to modern ethics does not change what it reads. I am not going to say it is impossible the Torah had 21st c. western ethics. I am going to point out it has always had the ethics and morality of its times else the Talmud would express 21st c. western ethics which it does not. Or, like "end times" christians, you could adopt the idea that finally the true meaning has become clear.

Of course if you believe you can express you have something different from what I have described you are certainly free to post it for this august body to consider.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Brian37 wrote:FurryCatHerder

Brian37 wrote:

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Brian,

I've never been =badgered= into changing a religious belief, and I suspect that very few people ever have.  Lots of emphasis on "very few people ever have."  It's your repeated interjections that make me question whether or not something more is going on.

As for the spectators, this is an Atheist website and there is no mistaking that fact.

We have far more readers than daily posters. If you look at the stats at the bottom of the page home page, on the left down at the bottom,  you see that at any given time there are on average 100 people. That doesn't mean only 100 people a day, just 100 people at any given time. So that is thousands of viewers a day because the same people don't stay on all day.

And if my "badgering" bothers you that much, then DON'T torture yourself by reading my posts or posting at the website yourself. YOU came here and no one is forcing you to post here.

You use the word "badger" because you you cant stand that someone is challenging your "specialness".

I use the word "badger" because that word best seems to describe your behavior.  If your objective is simply to drive me off this website, you may very well convince me that is the best course of action.  You seem to have succeeded with redneF and he was on =your= side.  Frankly, your behavior can be more readily explained as someone who has severe doubts about their own atheist views and is in need of constant reassurance that they're correct.  While I very seldom suggest anyone engage in the polytheism that is Christianity, I'm going to suggest that perhaps you need to get back into a church somewhere until you can come to grips with whatever it is that has you acting in the manner in which you behave.

Likewise, I'll point out that having 100 readers at any given point in time is a meaningless statistic when it comes to deciding whether to badger and harass some "theist" -- you'd have to have a reason to believe that being an annoying f*ck is a better course of action than =not= being an annoying f*ck.  Because that's how you come across and it's getting to be =very= annoying and not the least bit persuasive.  If anything, you come across as someone who can only make their point by trying to drown out the other person, which tends to work very badly.  I would argue that it works poorly enough as to not work at all, by which I mean, it has the opposite effect of what you intend.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:Of course

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
Of course if you believe you can express you have something different from what I have described you are certainly free to post it for this august body to consider.

Just so we're clear on this one point -- based on your own behavior, and the comments of a number of other posters, I am of the opinion that you are severely mentally ill and my responding to you is harmful to you in various ways.

For that reason, I'm not responding to you.

I do reserve the right to remind you and anyone who reads your responses to me of this position, but it's my intention (b'li neder) that I not respond to you until perhaps you've demonstrated a better grasp on reality.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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Philosophicus wrote:Then God

Philosophicus wrote:
Then God should come up with a better way of proving Himself, and if any other deity is up there, they should do the same.  If revelation is the only evidence, then there's no way of knowing if the person

really

had an encounter with a deity.  There are plenty of plausible natural explanations.  God should come up with repeated

public

displays in the present, so scientists have something to work with.  If there is a God, He must be shy. 

There are limitations to this approach too, because scientists might only be able to prove that a superpowerful alien was there, not the creator of the universe (unless the being could show us how it made the universe and prove that we weren't having a psychotic episode).  Right now the believer only has faith to rely on.

The standard approach, given in the Hebrew bible, is to see if what the "prophet" said comes true.  You can argue that just makes it a lucky guess, but when someone keeps coming up with lucky guesses, that sort of says something.

In terms of Hebrew prophets (not to be confused with anything that =isn't= an actual prophet) that a certain Bronze Age goat-herder religion seems to have stuck around and seems to be doing everything to drive the world to "peace and universal brotherhood" (see Isaiah) tells me our prophets had a better connection with whomever is handing out answers.  I mean, I don't see Egyptian sun-god worshipers running around and many of the pagan practices that were extremely common thousands of years ago are all but gone.  Which sounds a bit like a piece from Zechariah -- "And in that day G-d will be One and G-d's name will be One."  In Roman times 1/10th of the Roman Empire (which was far from the entire world ...) believed in Ha'Kadosh Baruch Hu.  We're up to about 3 billion Jews, Christians and Muslims out of 7 billion total people.  Based on biblical criteria, I'd say that Zechariah had a revelation from G-d.  Which is convenient since he's also a Hebrew prophet ...

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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Quote:I use the word

Quote:
I use the word "badger" because that word best seems to describe your behavior

No, you use it because I wont bee a good gentile and say "isn't that nice".Ir

But if that is the word you want to use, fine.

You are still not special on a planet of 7 billion. No one is. No race is, no religion is, no political party is, no class is. We are merely a blip in evolution and we will all be forgotten with time.

We are special to ourselves. Humans have to value themselves as individuals otherwise evolution wouldn't drive them to continue. And we are special to our family and friends. And all humans flock to like minded people, which forms things like politics, religions and nations.

However, our species has always suffered a self centered narcissism that leads them to needless conflict because of blind loyalty. It creates atmospheres that allow "in group "out group" "us vs them" thinking. Which in our species history has made it very easy to forget the "outsider" is human which makes it easy for humans to harm each other.

Your Jewishness is NOT my problem. Your insistence for a pedestal and pecking order is. Which is why you don't understand why I will support an Israeli state, but not a "Jewish state".

The Egyptians falsely believed that the sun was a god. They were successful for 3,000 years in surrounding them with that sugar pill. Our species still managed to continue without that religion. If Hinduism ends tomorrow, our species will continue. If Buddhism ends tomorrow our species will still continue. If Iran falls as a nation, our species will continue. If China falls as a nation, our species will continue.

The point is times change and nothing lasts forever. You can dwell in the past but the future is all humans have.

Our species existed long before the Hebrews or even the Egyptians. And 1,000 or 10,000  or 14,000 years from now it is quite likely there will be new religions, and the ones people hold today will be looked at like the myths of the past, just like you and I see the Egyptians as a myth.

The only thing humans have is NOW, not the past and the future will go without us as individuals. I think what WE can do as s species is work for a world where we are INDIVIDUALS and humans first.

You say you want peace but you think the way to do that is to set up a religious state that sets up a pecking order. You are not simply, by advocating that, saying "fuck Muslims". You are saying "fuck atheists, fuck Christians, fuck Chinese, fuck Buddhists. All of you can take a back seat to Jews".

There is nothing moral about hubris or narcissism. You shit and pee like me, your Jewishness doesn't stop that. Muslims shit and pee, their Allah doesn't stop that. I shit and pee. My atheism doesn't stop that. You will die, your Jewishness doesn't stop that. Muslims will die too, their Allah wont stop that. I will die too, my atheism wont stop that.

NO ONE IS SPECIAL.

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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FurryCatHerder

FurryCatHerder wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
Of course if you believe you can express you have something different from what I have described you are certainly free to post it for this august body to consider.

Just so we're clear on this one point -- based on your own behavior, and the comments of a number of other posters, I am of the opinion that you are severely mentally ill and my responding to you is harmful to you in various ways.

For that reason, I'm not responding to you.

I do reserve the right to remind you and anyone who reads your responses to me of this position, but it's my intention (b'li neder) that I not respond to you until perhaps you've demonstrated a better grasp on reality.

I know you were responding to Noony, but.....

Your Jewishness makes you special? And anyone who doesn't support a Jewish state doesn't have a grasp on reality? Good one. Noony's black and white thinking is as as much reality as yours. Delusional.

Here is what I can do that you cant., and he cant.

My atheism does not make me special. Try reality yourself. You too Noony.

I think he suffers from narcissism himself in the form of the same "virtue of the oppressed" garbage you do. So pot meet kettle.

Jews are not special, Palestinians are not special, there are just humans killing each other needlessly.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Brian37 wrote:Quote:I use

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
I use the word "badger" because that word best seems to describe your behavior

No, you use it because I wont bee a good gentile and say "isn't that nice".

Actually, it's because you seem to have a compulsive-obsessive need to respond in the same badgering manner, which means that you also fall under the "Do not put a stumbling block before the blind." commandment.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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FurryCatHerder wrote:Brian37

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
I use the word "badger" because that word best seems to describe your behavior

No, you use it because I wont bee a good gentile and say "isn't that nice".

Actually, it's because you seem to have a compulsive-obsessive need to respond in the same badgering manner, which means that you also fall under the "Do not put a stumbling block before the blind." commandment.

Once again fine.

Now do you, or don't you think you are special because you are Jewish? A simple yes or no will do.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Brian37 wrote:Once again

Brian37 wrote:
Once again fine.

Now do you, or don't you think you are special because you are Jewish? A simple yes or no will do.

I'm sorry, but I don't see any point in responding to you.  If I answer "Yes", you'll do some kind of gotch-dance.  If I answer "No", I'm sure you'll come up with some reason why you think the answer is really "Yes", and then you'll do some kind of gotcha-dance.

I gave you plenty of opportunities to chillax.  You turned them down, and now I need to move on, as it were.  I wish you well and I hope you find whatever it is you seem to be struggling with.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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FurryCatHerder wrote:Brian37

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Brian37 wrote:
Once again fine.

Now do you, or don't you think you are special because you are Jewish? A simple yes or no will do.

I'm sorry, but I don't see any point in responding to you.  If I answer "Yes", you'll do some kind of gotch-dance.  If I answer "No", I'm sure you'll come up with some reason why you think the answer is really "Yes", and then you'll do some kind of gotcha-dance.

I gave you plenty of opportunities to chillax.  You turned them down, and now I need to move on, as it were.  I wish you well and I hope you find whatever it is you seem to be struggling with.

Bullshit. You yourself said you wanted a Jewish theocracy. If that is not setting up a pecking order in thinking one is special then I must live on a different planet. If that is not saying "I am special because I am Jewish" then peanut butter tastes like squid and Fox News is "Fair and Balanced".

You are in total denial that you are NOT special because of claiming the label of Jew. It is not a "gotcha" question anymore than saying both of us shit and pee and will die is a "gotcha" FACT!

You are just as delusional as any Muslim who thinks Muslim law is good for everyone. You are just as delusional as any Christian who thinks the Constitution was ripped out of the bible.

If all non-Jews who live in Israel cannot compete in the political process to become PM, you are no better than Iran where there is no hope for a Jew becoming PM.

The attitude is the same, the only difference is degree of delusion. They treat non-Muslims as rats. You are only slightly better in that non-Jews are pets.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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You also said that I would

You also said that I would make a great Jew. What that tells me is that you find good in me, but you retrofit what you find to fit what was sold to you, rather than see me as an individual. You project your god claim as having power over me as if I am a puppet of your god.

Unlike you, what matters to me, is not who leads my country. I would not want an atheist like Beyond in power. What matters to me is the individual, not the label.

Mitt Romney is a Mormon, but if he were for universal health care and reducing the pay gap and cheaper education, I would vote for him. But I also would not vote for any Jew or Muslim or atheist who advocated blasphemy laws.

I accept that religion exists. I WILL work towards convincing people of all labels that they dont need it. But I will not forget in all that that no matter what, we are humans FIRST. I am not going to side with an atheist just because they share the same label. I side with INDIVIDUALS.

IF both you and I can see the harm that Beyond Saving's shallow thinking on economics has caused, then you should be able to understand why individuals are more important than labels.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Furry,Beyond religion or

Furry,

Beyond religion or politics name me one human being that has survived death.  You know damned well there has not been one human being that has survived death.

Christians were the first to popularize a zombie god motif. And the right wing nuts in that bunch treat Jews as the Limo driver to the club of the after life but the Jews wont in majority get past the velvet ropes.

How about this.

Humans are very easily lead by the powers that be. I am sure you would agree that the citizens of North Korea love their dictator as much as any Muslim loves Allah.

My only advice to ALL of humanity is to stop living in a fucking box. If we all have arms and legs, and we all feel pain, and we all want to survive, then life is a no brainer to me.

WE ARE ALL THE SAME SPECIES REGARDLESS OF LABEL

SKIP THE FUCKING LABELS AND STOP TREATING OTHERS LIKE RATS OR PETS!

How about we all treat each other like individuals?

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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FurryCatHerder wrote:a

FurryCatHerder wrote:

a certain Bronze Age goat-herder religion seems to have stuck around and seems to be doing everything to drive the world to "peace and universal brotherhood"

The existence of Israel disproves "doing everything to drive the world to 'peace and universal brotherhood'". Some Jews are doing everything they can to accomplish this goal, and some, whether intentionally or not, are contributing to divisiveness and thus making this goal harder to accomplish. Basically, I make the claim that Jews are not inherently better or worse than anyone else, and that converting to the Jewish faith does not automatically make one a better person. Like Brian says, the label of "Jew" does not make one more worthy than anyone else. Anyone who has been persecuted or harmed has a legitimate claim to complain about it and to receive some sort of compensation from those who persecuted or harmed them. And, depending on the government they live under, they may have a legal right to these things as well. Of course, I would say that someone who knowingly harms others and is then harmed in return doesn't have much of a legitimate claim to complain or receive compensation. Depending on the situation, however, he or she may still have some resemblance of a claim that should be paid attention to. For example, a man (or woman) who tortures people is killed by one of the people he tortured. I do not think that person who did the killing should get any sort of punishment. Continuing: the son of the man who tortured people was killed by the same person who killed his father. Now, while the father had (before he died) taught his son that it was ok to torture certain people, his son had not harmed anyone. After meeting his torturer's son and seeing that he shared the same beliefs, the man killed the boy out of fear and disgust. Should the man be punished for killing his torturer's son?

In addition, you always criticize Christianity for being polytheistic. I honestly don't see how 3 gods are any more ridiculous than 1 god. Of course, if you're attacking the legitimacy of their claims to being monotheistic, then that sort of makes sense.

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Actually, it's because you seem to have a compulsive-obsessive need to respond in the same badgering manner, which means that you also fall under the "Do not put a stumbling block before the blind." commandment.

My best guess is that Brian relentlessly attacks claims he perceives to be irrational because he thinks that these claims are a big cause of problems in the world. I imagine he thinks that getting people to stop believing these claims will make solving the world's problems a whole lot easier. In addition, Brian really, REALLY wants the problems in the world to be solved. That, I'm guessing, is why he seems obsessive-compulsive to you.

Also, the "do not put a stumbling block before the blind" statement is incredibly patronizing (to me, at least). It seems you're implying that someone is too stupid to handle what you have to say.

 


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Quote:Some Jews are doing

Quote:
Some Jews are doing everything they can to accomplish this goal, and some, whether intentionally or not, are contributing to divisiveness and thus making this goal harder to accomplish

BINGO,

Which is why I argue labels don't matter.

I am sure Beyond has good intent. I am sure other rich people he sides with don't give a shit.

What matters is not class, label, religion, politics or race. What matters is that we are INDIVIDUALS first.

Denial that we are all the same species is what hurts humanity the most.

I will side with someone I disagree with before I side with someone who makes a utopia their priority. There is no such thing as a utopia. It wont work for Beyond, or Me or Furry or Noony.

NOW is all humans have, not our labels, not our politics, not our religions. None of those labels will prevent any human from dying. Old age is the only goal I find noble for our species. Politics and religion and race and nationality are the needless squabbles that prevent our species from dying from old age.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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FurryCatHerder wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
Of course if you believe you can express you have something different from what I have described you are certainly free to post it for this august body to consider.

Just so we're clear on this one point -- based on your own behavior, and the comments of a number of other posters, I am of the opinion that you are severely mentally ill and my responding to you is harmful to you in various ways.

Just because of Freud does every Jew think they can run the same psychoanalysis con game he did? Of course they do.

Quote:
For that reason, I'm not responding to you.

I do reserve the right to remind you and anyone who reads your responses to me of this position, but it's my intention (b'li neder) that I not respond to you until perhaps you've demonstrated a better grasp on reality.

You have joined all the others who have failed to demonstrate Jews are anything other than adherents to Judaism just as Dr. Sand demonstrates. Your fantasy remains intact to self-delude a while longer.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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FurryCatHerder wrote:

Philosophicus wrote:
Then God should come up with a better way of proving Himself, and if any other deity is up there, they should do the same.  If revelation is the only evidence, then there's no way of knowing if the person

really

had an encounter with a deity.  There are plenty of plausible natural explanations.  God should come up with repeated

public

displays in the present, so scientists have something to work with.  If there is a God, He must be shy. 

There are limitations to this approach too, because scientists might only be able to prove that a superpowerful alien was there, not the creator of the universe (unless the being could show us how it made the universe and prove that we weren't having a psychotic episode).  Right now the believer only has faith to rely on.

The standard approach, given in the Hebrew bible, is to see if what the "prophet" said comes true.  You can argue that just makes it a lucky guess, but when someone keeps coming up with lucky guesses, that sort of says something.

So when the Torah said Yahweh would drive the inhabitants out of the promised land with hornets so it would be empty when the chosenites arrived was that a false prophecy or did Joshua invade the wrong country? Did Moses lie? Clearly it is wrong.


 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Why don't you and Brian get a room?

.


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FurryCatHerder wrote:
...

In terms of Hebrew prophets (not to be confused with anything that =isn't= an actual prophet) that a certain Bronze Age goat-herder religion seems to have stuck around and seems to be doing everything to drive the world to "peace and universal brotherhood" (see Isaiah) tells me our prophets had a better connection with whomever is handing out answers.

Do you really think it wise to compare all of Isaiah to the future reality and prove he was not a prophet by your definition or shall we just look at Israel and see that is contrary to the facts? Like all believers you choose only the few facts whichi support your fantasy.

As we know, Judaism is the only religion protected by both the Christians and the Muslims. As to survival the greater the fanciful claims of the number of Jews in the Roman empire the clearer its failure when we look at the increase in the world population. Since 1950 the world population has more than doubled yet there are the same number of Jews as there were in 1938 through 1948.

Quote:
I mean, I don't see Egyptian sun-god worshipers running around and many of the pagan practices that were extremely common thousands of years ago are all but gone.

Of course they were not protected religions. Perhaps it is just being a man but I don't see the value of an ritual/taboo genital mutilating religion. I agree folks like you have christianized your heresy a lot just as the Galileans romanized the Judean cult. It is obvious why the Orthodox do not consider the Reform to be Jews at all.

Quote:
Which sounds a bit like a piece from Zechariah -- "And in that day G-d will be One and G-d's name will be One."  In Roman times 1/10th of the Roman Empire (which was far from the entire world ...) believed in Ha'Kadosh Baruch Hu.

And that number was arrived at by Jews slowly increasing the estimate every few years without the least physcial evidence for any number. It is also absurd to say much of anything before the Christians invented the idea of codifying a religion. The picture of Moses striking a rock in the "jewish" catecomb outside Rome does raise the question of whether they should be called Jews at all. If so it means the no pictures of people rule came later and is not biblical at all.

Quote:
We're up to about 3 billion Jews, Christians and Muslims out of 7 billion total people.  Based on biblical criteria, I'd say that Zechariah had a revelation from G-d.  Which is convenient since he's also a Hebrew prophet ...

Sorry but the Judeans denounced the Galilean heresy and slaughtered them whenever the opportunity occurred as in the Mamia Pool massacre. It took Constantine II to ban the forced conversion of slaves owned by Jews.

I find it amusing the more insistent the believer the less they know about what they believe. You are no worse than most. Like most you are supremely ignorant of what you talk about.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:failed to

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

failed to demonstrate Jews are anything other than adherents to Judaism

I really thought this was some kind of typo, but then I did a google search for "define jew":

Jew: A member of the people and cultural community whose traditional religion is Judaism and who trace their origins through the ancient Hebrew people of Israel to Abraham

There's not exactly a lot of historical documentation for the existence of Abraham outside of the Old Testament... Also, wouldn't that make a lot of people who don't actually practice Judaism Jewish? I mean, I've had a number of people tell me I look Jewish and I'm an atheist whose family has lived on the eastern seaboard of North America since the 1700's and moved here from Austria, France and Germany. I know that Judaism is a religion and that religious believers often share certain values, but to claim that "Jews" are a race would include a lot of people who don't practice that faith or share those values. Of course, there's no requirement that all members of a race share anything beyond appearance...

Why should a person who doesn't want war be forced to pay for it?

If most people don't want wars, why should we have wars?

If most people want to "get along", why shouldn't we?

This last part is primarily directed to FurryCatHerder, but anyone can respond if they wish:

Furry, you make fun of atheists for complaining about the problems of the world, and I think I understand your point of view. Now, if you'll read what I've written below, perhaps you'll come to understand my perspective on the issue.

If I had the power and knowledge necessary to solve the world's problems without harming the planet or anything on it, I would do it in an instant. If I was an all-powerful being, I would possess that power and knowledge. THAT is probably the biggest reason why I cannot fathom the existence of an all-powerful and all-loving God.

 


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blacklight915 wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
failed to demonstrate Jews are anything other than adherents to Judaism

I really thought this was some kind of typo, but then I did a google search for "define jew":

Jew: A member of the people and cultural community whose traditional religion is Judaism and who trace their origins through the ancient Hebrew people of Israel to Abraham

Finding a definition does not mean it is a working definition. Working means I can actually use it to determine satisfaction of the definition. Christian, a baptized person who adheres to the basic creeds such as the Apostolic. One can complicate it but the complications don't really change anything as in Unitarians are in all but the trinity thing.

How does a person, an individual, have a traditional religion? What does that mean? A group can but not an individual. An individual does or does not adhere to a religion. Does it mean a Jew who converts to Christianity is a Jew?

Does tracing origins mean a convert to Judaism is not a Jew? And doubly not a Jew because it is not their "traditional" religion? That definition excludes Furry.

Quote:
There's not exactly a lot of historical documentation for the existence of Abraham outside of the Old Testament... Also, wouldn't that make a lot of people who don't actually practice Judaism Jewish?

Not just that, have you missed the atheists who claim to be Jews? As I said, no different from a fraternal organization.

Quote:
I mean, I've had a number of people tell me I look Jewish and I'm an atheist whose family has lived on the eastern seaboard of North America since the 1700's and moved here from Austria, France and Germany.

I was born and raised in Cincinnati. Real traditional German town although that was so long ago it is little more than a memory AND the surnames. When I moved to DC it took me years to understand what people meant by jewish names and looking jewish because the names were German and they mostly looked German.

Years after figuring it out I acquired good friend, a jewish doctor born in Hungary, and if he is not nearly all Mongol I have no idea who is. I have no idea what looks like means.

Quote:
I know that Judaism is a religion and that religious believers often share certain values, but to claim that "Jews" are a race would include a lot of people who don't practice that faith or share those values. Of course, there's no requirement that all members of a race share anything beyond appearance...

Keep in mind that neither Islam nor Judaism are creedal religions. Observant Jews can believe anything they want including that Abraham and Moses were deluded drug users and/or charlatan con artists. However they must perform the rituals and avoid the taboos. That is the requirement the only requirement for membership. It is a ritual/taboo religion. Muslims must believe, There is no god but Allah and Mohamed is his prophet. Beyond that it is also a ritual/taboo religion. Islam is Judaism Lite.

Quote:
Why should a person who doesn't want war be forced to pay for it?

If most people don't want wars, why should we have wars?

If most people want to "get along", why shouldn't we?

Because we live in a free country under the delusion of democracy.

There is ruling class in a democracy. There is a wannabe ruling class that kisses it ass. Fact, 80% of Americans were against the 2003 war against Iraq at the time it started. Find that mentioned any place today. It was only 60% or so against the first Iraq war. I agreed with the first war for a lot of reasons but not the second which was a total waste of lives and money and only benefited Iran as I said it would.

Clearly no American who fought in Iraq fought for their country other than in the sense of an employee. No one died for their country. Iraq was never a threat to the US, period. Every Iraqi killed was murdered by Americans and there is no way out of that as it was a war of aggression by the US. There was no defense involved in any sense even the most drug induced. Find that mentioned any place.

Those that fought have my sympathies because they were deluded into thinking it was a cause worth fighting. However most of them knew it was crap while they were there and just enjoyed the fighting and killing. And that is a fact you can read as the subtext of literally hundreds of direct quotes. The grunts say fighting for, the official press releases are the ones that say defending. And those who compose the press releases know the reason the use of the word "defend" is required. In knowing the reason they know it was not defense.

This is exactly the sort of thing Orwell wrote about in 1984 but was using WWII Britain as his model. His job during that war was being the Winston character and doing what Winston did.

For the record, I did twenty years with DOD in DC headquarters. I have nothing whatsoever against war per se. I am not a pacifist in any sense of the word. I am against wars for ideological reasons. They are a waste and solve nothing. There are legitimate wars of national interest. The US has not been in one since the Spanish-American war.

WWII has been raised to mythical proportions which do not mention preserving the British and French empires and expanding the Soviet empire which were its only causes and consequences. The legitimate US interest was replacing the British dominance of the world. The error was not following Patton's advice to draft the German POWs and destroy the communists. Had that been done consider the world without a Cold War, no communist China and no world power capable of changing the US interest in free trade as a rule of international relations. 3000 years ago that was the course of western civilization and wars disrupted the mutual dependency on free trade and were discouraged. It is where we are hopefully headed today despite the Cold War hiatus.

Quote:
This last part is primarily directed to FurryCatHerder, but anyone can respond if they wish:

Furry, you make fun of atheists for complaining about the problems of the world, and I think I understand your point of view. Now, if you'll read what I've written below, perhaps you'll come to understand my perspective on the issue.

If I had the power and knowledge necessary to solve the world's problems without harming the planet or anything on it, I would do it in an instant. If I was an all-powerful being, I would possess that power and knowledge. THAT is probably the biggest reason why I cannot fathom the existence of an all-powerful and all-loving God.

The Jewish god by its own description of itself is NOT all powerful, all knowing nor all loving. By its own description is it petty, spiteful, jealous, venganceful,  knows little and does not control much of anything. That is the Jewish god prior to the Reform movement christianizing it. RTFB. Read The Fine Bible. That it what it says about itself. That is the god of the Jews. It is phrased several ways but all to the effect 'my people are those who obey my laws' and there are no exceptions even to the most arcane laws.

As to the modern world, real Jews are polygamists which is the point of the Latter Day Saints on polygamy. Israel arrests real Jews. And in response real Jews do not recognize the zionist government. Real Jews get along fine with Muslims who also recognize polygamy with the limitation of being able to support them.

The Furry Syndrome is christianizing Judaism as Christians romanized Judaism. Greeks and Romans were monogamous. If Furry does not support polygamy she is not a Jew she is rather a christianized Jew.

The Furry cop out on the nonsense "science" in the bible is it was the most the goat herders could understand but at the least suggestion the morality was the most they could understand she rises to her pulpit.

Which of the "noatic laws" are not in the "tell me something new" category? Which of the big ten are not in that same category?

Years ago someone sent me and I lost track of a 4000 year old letter of father to son upon his coming of age whatever that meant at the time. Other than dwelling upon avoid lawyers it essentially recounted the ten commandments in a much more human style. Honor thy father and mother was more like we raised you as best we could and hope you will do the same for your children. We made mistakes but we tried our best. It was not stone the brat that is not respectful. This is one of the really big hints that the OT was meant as entertainment rather than rules back when it was created but that is another thread.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Louis_Cypher wrote:Yes. The

Louis_Cypher wrote:

Yes. The theist has no other source of information, I want one or more of them to defend it.

Revelation is the ONLY source of religious 'knowledge'. Everything else is apologetics.

 

LC >;-}>

 

W.L. Craig agrees. Argument & evidence takes a backseat to a ghost giving you tingly feelings.

“Should a conflict arise between the witness of the Holy Spirit to the fundamental truth of the Christian faith and beliefs based on argument and evidence, then it is the former which must take precedence over the latter, not vice versa.” William Lane Craig  ‘Reasonable Faith: Christian Truth and Apologetics (1984). 

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


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blacklight915 wrote:Furry,

blacklight915 wrote:
Furry, you make fun of atheists for complaining about the problems of the world, and I think I understand your point of view. Now, if you'll read what I've written below, perhaps you'll come to understand my perspective on the issue.

If I had the power and knowledge necessary to solve the world's problems without harming the planet or anything on it, I would do it in an instant. If I was an all-powerful being, I would possess that power and knowledge. THAT is probably the biggest reason why I cannot fathom the existence of an all-powerful and all-loving God.

That's because the god you don't believe in is a puppet-master.  I don't believe G-d is a puppet-master who solves all our problems for us and makes sure we never fall down and skin a knee.

There are parents who behave the way the god you don't believe in behaves.  They are called "helicopter parents".

The number of Atheists who don't believe in a god who is a puppet-master is truly alarming.  It's like you are angry that you aren't able to get whatever you want by asking your non-existent Sky Daddy Santa Geppetto to give it to you, so you're going to stamp your feet, pick up your ball, and go home.

There is a concept, which while not formally part of Judaism (because it's a Latin term ...) seems to be the case, called "Imitatio Dei".  See here --

Quote:

Judaism

The concept of imitatio Dei - generally taken to be a mitzvah - in Judaism is derived, in part, from the concept of imago Dei - being made in the image of God. Not only do people in the Torah aspire to take on godly virtues, they are aided by the depiction of God as a man - anthropomorphism. The concept is arguably best expressed in the following quote, taken from Leviticus:

Speak to the entire assembly of Israel and say to them: 'Be holy because I, the LORD your God, am holy.[3]

This concept was later to become part of the basis of rabbinic Judaism. Jews are exhorted to perform acts of kindness similar to the ones ascribed to God. Examples are burying the dead (as God buried Moses), visiting the sick (as God visited Abraham) and some very similar mitzvot.[4] The Talmud states: "So as He is merciful, so should you be merciful".[5]

Guess what?  Not only do you have the power and the knowledge, but if you set your mind to it, you could actually do things that =would= work to solve the world's problems.  And if everyone followed the instructions given above from Leviticus and the Talmud, the world's problems would actually =get= solved.  Just as if G-d really existed, without G-d having to be Sky Daddy Santa Geppetto who makes sure you never learn how to do anything on your own or take responsibility for your actions.

I think I'll stick with the G-d I believe in and leave you to the god you don't believe in.  I like mine a lot better.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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blacklight915 wrote:There's

blacklight915 wrote:

There's not exactly a lot of historical documentation for the existence of Abraham outside of the Old Testament...

 

Actually, there is absolutely none.  There is no way to tell one goat herder from another by the archaeological record.  Best we can say is there is evidence of pastorialism and no evidence of a formal government.

 

blacklight915 wrote:

Also, wouldn't that make a lot of people who don't actually practice Judaism Jewish? I mean, I've had a number of people tell me I look Jewish and I'm an atheist whose family has lived on the eastern seaboard of North America since the 1700's and moved here from Austria, France and Germany. I know that Judaism is a religion and that religious believers often share certain values, but to claim that "Jews" are a race would include a lot of people who don't practice that faith or share those values. Of course, there's no requirement that all members of a race share anything beyond appearance...

 

There is no such thing biologically as "race".  Humans have comparatively very little genetic diversity.  Most people focus on a few obvious characteristics such as skin color, hair color, hair color and so on.  But those variants can be found within any population you choose.  And I found a couple of articles that say that Sephardic Jews are indistinguishable from Palestinians genetically.  Someone should give up this argument.

 

blacklight915 wrote:

Why should a person who doesn't want war be forced to pay for it?

If most people don't want wars, why should we have wars?

If most people want to "get along", why shouldn't we?

This last part is primarily directed to FurryCatHerder, but anyone can respond if they wish:

Furry, you make fun of atheists for complaining about the problems of the world, and I think I understand your point of view. Now, if you'll read what I've written below, perhaps you'll come to understand my perspective on the issue.

If I had the power and knowledge necessary to solve the world's problems without harming the planet or anything on it, I would do it in an instant. If I was an all-powerful being, I would possess that power and knowledge. THAT is probably the biggest reason why I cannot fathom the existence of an all-powerful and all-loving God.

 

Well, I agree with you.  Not that anyone gives a rat's ass about my opinion.  If god/s/dess/g-d is so all fricking powerful and benevolent, s/he/it/they can get off their ass and straighten things out.  Free will my ass.  Otherwise, I have to conclude the entity(ies) is/are malignant thugs and Furry, et al, are welcome to spend eternity licking their toes.

Personally, I'd rather not.

 

PS - I will be happy to repeat my story about the 5 year old girl.  She didn't have free will and sure as hell didn't ask for what happened to her.  And she isn't the only innocent who suffers because of "free will" and god/s/dess/g-d's laziness.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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ex-minister wrote:

Louis_Cypher wrote:

Yes. The theist has no other source of information, I want one or more of them to defend it.

Revelation is the ONLY source of religious 'knowledge'. Everything else is apologetics.

 

LC >;-}>

 

W.L. Craig agrees. Argument & evidence takes a backseat to a ghost giving you tingly feelings.

“Should a conflict arise between the witness of the Holy Spirit to the fundamental truth of the Christian faith and beliefs based on argument and evidence, then it is the former which must take precedence over the latter, not vice versa.” William Lane Craig  ‘Reasonable Faith: Christian Truth and Apologetics (1984). 

 

But if you challenged a Christian as to how they know it's the Holy Spirit talking to them, they'll probably say it's because it conforms to scripture, or that they "just know," or that it's as absurd to doubt the presence of the Holy Spirit as it is to doubt that the visual experience of a tree corresponds to an mind-external tree. 

I remember seeing Craig say that quote from Reasonable Faith on YouTube.  I shuddered.  Or cringed, I don't remember.  It looked to me like he cared more about the emotional high than truth. 

 


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cj wrote:

blacklight915 wrote:

This last part is primarily directed to FurryCatHerder, but anyone can respond if they wish:

Furry, you make fun of atheists for complaining about the problems of the world, and I think I understand your point of view. Now, if you'll read what I've written below, perhaps you'll come to understand my perspective on the issue.

If I had the power and knowledge necessary to solve the world's problems without harming the planet or anything on it, I would do it in an instant. If I was an all-powerful being, I would possess that power and knowledge. THAT is probably the biggest reason why I cannot fathom the existence of an all-powerful and all-loving God.

 

Well, I agree with you.  Not that anyone gives a rat's ass about my opinion.  If god/s/dess/g-d is so all fricking powerful and benevolent, s/he/it/they can get off their ass and straighten things out.  Free will my ass.  Otherwise, I have to conclude the entity(ies) is/are malignant thugs and Furry, et al, are welcome to spend eternity licking their toes.

Personally, I'd rather not.

 

PS - I will be happy to repeat my story about the 5 year old girl.  She didn't have free will and sure as hell didn't ask for what happened to her.  And she isn't the only innocent who suffers because of "free will" and god/s/dess/g-d's laziness.

 

 

It's funny, because Jews and Christians say to atheists, who are supposedly severely less powerful than God, "Why don't you do something about it?!!", and then they blame humans when things go bad.  So when things go good, praise God; when things go bad, blame people.  The God character has no responsibility.  Like George Carlin said, "Results like these do not belong on the resume of a supreme being.  If God lived in Brooklyn He'd be out on His all-powerful ass a long time ago."

We shouldn't be held to the same standards as an all-perfect being when we're all so powerless in comparison.  I agree with Furry that we have to do the best we can to improve humanity though.  A religion should be based on good works.


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FurryCatHerder wrote:That's

FurryCatHerder wrote:

That's because the god you don't believe in is a puppet-master.  I don't believe G-d is a puppet-master who solves all our problems for us and makes sure we never fall down and skin a knee.

There are parents who behave the way the god you don't believe in behaves.  They are called "helicopter parents".

The number of Atheists who don't believe in a god who is a puppet-master is truly alarming.  It's like you are angry that you aren't able to get whatever you want by asking your non-existent Sky Daddy Santa Geppetto to give it to you, so you're going to stamp your feet, pick up your ball, and go home.

Just as if G-d really existed, without G-d having to be Sky Daddy Santa Geppetto who makes sure you never learn how to do anything on your own or take responsibility for your actions.

I think I'll stick with the G-d I believe in and leave you to the god you don't believe in.  I like mine a lot better.

Well, you clearly still don't understand my perspective... *sigh* whatever, it's not really necessary anyway...

More importantly, what you've written here will definitely help me to better understand YOUR perspective.

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Guess what?  Not only do you have the power and the knowledge, but if you set your mind to it, you could actually do things that =would= work to solve the world's problems.  And if everyone followed the instructions given above from Leviticus and the Talmud, the world's problems would actually =get= solved.

I already do minor things to improve the world and the lives of those around me every day. I'd love to do major things too. However, there are also lots of things in my life that I would be quite reluctant to give up. In addition, the sheer magnitude and complexity of problems in the world is often overwhelming and discouraging.

So why doesn't everyone follow these instructions?

 


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 Philosophicus wrote:W.L.

 

Philosophicus wrote:

W.L. Craig agrees. Argument & evidence takes a backseat to a ghost giving you tingly feelings.

“Should a conflict arise between the witness of the Holy Spirit to the fundamental truth of the Christian faith and beliefs based on argument and evidence, then it is the former which must take precedence over the latter, not vice versa.” William Lane Craig  ‘Reasonable Faith: Christian Truth and Apologetics (1984).

 

How can such a well-educated person say and believe such stupid things!? I doubt he uses such thinking in the majority of his daily activities...

Philosophicus wrote:

So when things go good, praise God; when things go bad, blame people.  The God character has no responsibility.  Like George Carlin said, "Results like these do not belong on the resume of a supreme being.  If God lived in Brooklyn He'd be out on His all-powerful ass a long time ago."

Now that I think about it, it is pretty odd that people praise an omnipotent being when good things happen, but blame such (comparatively) powerless ones when bad things happen.

Also, is George Carlin a comedian? I really like comedy; laughing always makes me feel better.

Philosophicus wrote:

I agree with Furry that we have to do the best we can to improve humanity though.

I definitely agree with that too. I was thinking, if everybody did that, wouldn't all the world's problems just disappear?

cj wrote:

There is no such thing biologically as "race".  Humans have comparatively very little genetic diversity.  Most people focus on a few obvious characteristics such as skin color, hair color, hair color and so on. But those variants can be found within any population you choose.

Interesting...so, assuming the differences in appearance based on geographical location are just the result of (relatively) isolated groups breeding only among themselves, does that mean the more people start interbreeding, the more those superficial differences will fade? That'd be kinda cool...

cj wrote:

PS - I will be happy to repeat my story about the 5 year old girl.  She didn't have free will and sure as hell didn't ask for what happened to her.  And she isn't the only innocent who suffers because of "free will" and god/s/dess/g-d's laziness.

I'm assuming that it is a rather unpleasant story; nevertheless, I would like to hear it.

 


ex-minister
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helicopter G-d

FurryCatHerder wrote:

blacklight915 wrote:
Furry, you make fun of atheists for complaining about the problems of the world, and I think I understand your point of view. Now, if you'll read what I've written below, perhaps you'll come to understand my perspective on the issue.

If I had the power and knowledge necessary to solve the world's problems without harming the planet or anything on it, I would do it in an instant. If I was an all-powerful being, I would possess that power and knowledge. THAT is probably the biggest reason why I cannot fathom the existence of an all-powerful and all-loving God.

That's because the god you don't believe in is a puppet-master.  I don't believe G-d is a puppet-master who solves all our problems for us and makes sure we never fall down and skin a knee.

There are parents who behave the way the god you don't believe in behaves.  They are called "helicopter parents".

The number of Atheists who don't believe in a god who is a puppet-master is truly alarming.  It's like you are angry that you aren't able to get whatever you want by asking your non-existent Sky Daddy Santa Geppetto to give it to you, so you're going to stamp your feet, pick up your ball, and go home.

There is a concept, which while not formally part of Judaism (because it's a Latin term ...) seems to be the case, called "Imitatio Dei".  See here --

 

 

 

BIBLE PROMISE - FAIL. That G-d is such a kidder. psych

Psalms 91

1 He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High will rest in the shadow of the Almighty.

2 I will say of the Lord, “He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.”

3 Surely he will save you from the fowler’s snare and from the deadly pestilence.

4 He will cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.

5 You will not fear the terror of night, nor the arrow that flies by day,

6 nor the pestilence that stalks in the darkness, nor the plague that destroys at midday.

7 A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near you.

8 You will only observe with your eyes and see the punishment of the wicked.

9 If you make the Most High your dwelling— even the Lord, who is my refuge—

10 then no harm will befall you, no disaster will come near your tent.

11 For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways;

12 they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.

13 You will tread upon the lion and the cobra; you will trample the great lion and the serpent.

14 “Because he loves me,” says the Lord, “I will rescue him; I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name.

15 He will call upon me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble, I will deliver him and honor him.

16 With long life will I satisfy him and show him my salvation.”

 

Scripture is dope. Its the bomb.

 

 

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


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tingly feelings vs the scientific method

Philosophicus wrote:

But if you challenged a Christian as to how they know it's the Holy Spirit talking to them, they'll probably say it's because it conforms to scripture, or that they "just know," or that it's as absurd to doubt the presence of the Holy Spirit as it is to doubt that the visual experience of a tree corresponds to an mind-external tree. 

I remember seeing Craig say that quote from Reasonable Faith on YouTube.  I shuddered.  Or cringed, I don't remember.  It looked to me like he cared more about the emotional high than truth. 

 

And how funny that there are 30k different Christian denominations & at least 5 Jewish denominations that see scripture differently. They each look gaze into its crystal ball and see something different and fight over it. Religion is divergent. Science is convergent. One relies on a fucking old book that can be read just about anyway and the other relies real evidence and solid peer review (i.e. tingly feelings vs the scientific method).

 

So right about WLC, he is an oral master-de-bater. It is all about WINNING.

 

 

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


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blacklight915 wrote:

Philosophicus wrote:

So when things go good, praise God; when things go bad, blame people.  The God character has no responsibility.  Like George Carlin said, "Results like these do not belong on the resume of a supreme being.  If God lived in Brooklyn He'd be out on His all-powerful ass a long time ago."

Now that I think about it, it is pretty odd that people praise an omnipotent being when good things happen, but blame such (comparatively) powerless ones when bad things happen.

Also, is George Carlin a comedian? I really like comedy; laughing always makes me feel better. 

 

Yeah, George Carlin was a comedian; he died in 2008.  I got that quote from a clip of one of his stand-up routines on YouTube.  It's awesome.  Jesse Ventura actually became an atheist after he watched it, and the video now has 11,599,484 views.  Here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o  (George Carlin - Religion is Bullshit)

Pass it along.

 

 

 

 


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George Carlin

blacklight915 wrote:

Also, is George Carlin a comedian? I really like comedy; laughing always makes me feel better.

 

He help me see the ridiculous in religion and started my path to atheism. I will surely shake his hand in hell vigorously and he will say to me "Get the fuck out of here". 

Couple of his videos here

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/search/label/George%20Carlin

 

 

 

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/