Revelation

Louis_Cypher
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Revelation

All religions can be reduced in essence to revelation, that is to say, one person communing with ‘god’ or his agents to gain knowledge. A religion may be based on a singular revelation, or on a series of revelations from a string of ‘prophets’. Revelation is then passed down as oral tradition, which becomes written tradition, or, as in more ‘modern’ situations, passed directly to written tradition.

 


My question would be, is revelation a valid source of knowledge?

What differentiates revelation from imagination or delusion? LC >;-}>

 

Christianity: A disgusting middle eastern blood cult, based in human sacrifice, with sacraments of cannibalism and vampirism, whose highest icon is of a near naked man hanging in torment from a device of torture.


Ktulu
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FurryCatHerder

FurryCatHerder wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

  So reason it out with him.  Tone down the ANGER IN YOUR POSTS BECAUSE IT MAKES PEOPLE TUNE YOU OUT !!!!!!

+1.

+2

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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FurryCatHerder wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
FurryCatHerder wrote:
...Wow.  You are illiterate.

To give you a little help I have two examples of the archaeological evidence for ancient civilizations. First I give you two typical images from Egypt, Luxor to be precise.

Just show me some equivalent images from biblical Israel.

Thanks for the pictures, it's always nice to look at photos of ancient temples to false gods that are lying in ruins.

One of your previous statements was that the truth cannot differ from the Torah. In the Torah all gods are real. You are imposing post Islamic ideas upon polytheist material.

The idea of true and false gods was pioneered by the Christions. Those words meant as in true and false patriotism or true and false love. They did not mean as in real and not real.

You should have no trouble verifying those two statement. If either is false you should have no problem producing physical evidence rather than mere assertion. If you can produce a simple declarative sentence prior to Islam equivalent to "There is no god but Allah" from the Torah or any other place prior to Mohamed you will have falsified that statement.

Quote:
I'd love to show you lots of photos of ancient temples in Israel for all of the false gods that were being worshiped, with all of their temples scattered throughout the country, all lying in ruins, but there's this small problem with Judaism -- there's only one G-d, and only one place for the Temple for G-d.  Not one city, not one province -- one place, on top of one hill, on top of one rock.

The ruins are still there -- sacked by the Romans in 70CE.  It was in all the papers.  A mosque was built on the same site and it's still there, today.

The unprovenanced religious tradition that Herod's temple was on that hill cannot be traced to a time before the mid-19th c. so far as I can find. If you can produce a statement of its location on that hill prior to that time you will have shown that statement is false. The Dome of the Rock is eight sided as was the temple of Astarte so the hill is likely the location her temple rather than that of Yahweh.

Quote:
But you know that.  You also know that the one place on top of one hill has been the site of the Temple in Jerusalem since Solomon's Temple was built, and destroyed.  And that after Solomon's Temple was rebuilt, Herod had a new Temple rebuilt.  Right on top of the same rock, on the same hill, in the same town, in the same province.

The issue of the mythical Solomon is the one I raised with the photos. Biblical Israel ran from the Nile to the Euphrates. Where is all the monumental construction that goes with such a kingdom -- even if you introduce the cop out that it was a different but mythical river in Egypt.

Where is the archaeological evidence, the artifacts, which support your religious belief in biblical Israel? By biblical Israel I mean Israel as described in the bible not some handwaving trying to avoid admitting there is no evidence for your religious belief. Percentagewise Israel is the most dug place in the world. There is no place left for the evidence to be hiding.

If there are in fact finds which demonstrate biblical Israel existed then you should have no problem posting URLs to the evidence instead of pretending your religious beliefs are self-evident. Citing the opinion of others is no different from citing the opinion of anyone.

The archaeological evidence must be sufficient to reconstruct the history of the civilization in bibleland just as the finds in Egypt, Babylon, Ur and other places have been sufficient to do so without reference to any written material.

Rotsa ruck!

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


A_Nony_Mouse
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Brian37 wrote:

Noony's taking to "one of them" and his dick isn't falling off. AMAZING!

I do not share your stereotype of the emasculating Yiddisha.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


A_Nony_Mouse
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FurryCatHerder wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
Have you gotten Hebrew Is Greek from the message I posted yet? It is certainly worth a quick read.

I've learned that you are an idiot and a bigot based on what you've written.

All atheists are familiar with believers who have nothing but mere assertion to support their cherished religious beliefs. You are being a stereotype.

Quote:
The origins of Hebrew are very well understood, and the answer isn't "Greek".

Nothing but mere assertion for which you are the sole authority. Thus spake the Nerfherder.

Quote:
Nor is Aramaic a single language that you could say "THIS is Aramaic, and nothing else is."  Nor are all Aramaic dialects uniformly consistent such that minor phonetic differences are all that's required to translate between dialects.  The same can be said of Arabic, though less so than with Aramaic.

As I said, Hebrew is an invented language of Aramaic heavily influenced by Greek. You brought up a primary influence with number and gender consistency between noun and verb. It is the only semitic language with this Aryan grammar.

What you should know is that prior to the DSS discovery the Masoretic and the Mishna were the only documents in "hebrew."  If I am in error you can easily present the other documents in "hebrew."

If would seem reasonable that you would learn what you are talking about before you substitute your beliefs for facts and attempt to survive on mere assertion. If your beliefs are facts then there must be physical evidence in support of them. Please present it.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


A_Nony_Mouse
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FurryCatHerder wrote:

Just a quick note --

I had thought that is thread had some promise, but it has drifted so far from the original topic that it's pointless.  It's either yet another forum for certain people to shout about Atheism, or one for certain other people to make outlandish claims that =might= be interesting in another thread, but are completely unrelated to =this= thread.

Anything related to your claims about Judaism are fair game. It is hardly outlandish to observe you believe in the inherent moral superiority of goatherds simply because they codified slavery in the Torah. According to you no prophet could be against slavery because that would be contrary to the Torah.

It is beyond question there is no physical evidence of a literate culture in bibleland until about a century after it came to be ruled by the Greeks. That merely establishes the earliest possible date at which the Old Testament books could have been created. It does not address who are where.

The fact that the oldest known material containing the persons and stories is the Septuagint in Greek.

Quote:
I don't normally bow out of threads, but this was one I'd hoped would have gone somewhere and it has gone in a completely different direction.

To the people who derailed the topic, congratulations.  Whatever perverse satisfaction you get from doing so, I hope you enjoy it.

The subject of the thread is revelation. As the revelation is in writing challenging the origin of your "holy" books is as much on topic as challenging the origin of the Book of Mormon or the Koran and Dianetics. Pointing out just how much you do not know about your chosen books goes with the territory. For Islam it would be pointing out the Surahs fit in no rational chronological order. For Christians it would be the arbitrary and capricious selection of a small number of the available gospels and epistles. For Scientology Hubbard as much as said he was imitating the psychoanalysis scam.

For Jews it is as I have done. You on the other hand wanted to talk about modern theology imposed upon the OT rather than the OT itself. You cannot talk about monotheism in the OT because it simply is not there to talk about.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


A_Nony_Mouse
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FurryCatHerder wrote:
ProzacDeathWish wrote:
FurryCatHerder wrote:
I don't normally bow out of threads, but this was one I'd hoped would have gone somewhere and it has gone in a completely different direction.

Call it a form of "mission creep" when topics drift.  It happens all the time.  Don't bail.  Academically speaking, I like the higher level of debate between you and Nony.  He's the "matter" to your "anti-matter" and that makes for an interesting debate.   You're both educated and with strong opinions.  That's a good combination.

I'd have preferred not to name-names, but Nony is very poorly educated and seems to be following more of a "any anti-Jewish / anti-Israel conspiracy is a good conspiracy!" approach.

If it is a true statement that I am poorly educated then it should be incredibly simple for you to cite proper authority to contradict my statements. I have invited that. You have remained silent. Surely you can cite things from your superior education off of the top of your head.

Quote:
Any time someone says "go read this bittorrent feed" instead of "Here are a list of scholarly works that have been subjected to peer review" they are trying an approach that's closer to "baffle them with bullshit" than reasoned debate.

To add to your education, the bittorrent feed IS as you appear to wish as support for the Hebrew is Greek assertion which your post partially supported. I told you it was exactly that.

However, citations are only for reference to points raised in debate not a substitute for debate. I have no problem continuing with the creation of the OT storiest no earlier than the 2nd c. BC absent physical evidence to the contrary. I am also very interested in discussing any physical evidence you know of which demonstrates an older origin.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


A_Nony_Mouse
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ProzacDeathWish wrote:

...

 

edit:  as far as the tactic of "baffling with bull shit" well sorry to say but that seems to be the major tactic that most theists of any category throw at  atheists.  But really, what else have they got to fall back on ?  ....yet the dialog continues between us.

Theists are so easily baffled by logic, reason and the absolute necessity for physical evidence. Those are things they have to abandon to be theists.

I find interesting the posts she chose to ignore such as the trivial observation that the morality and ethics of her chosen(ite) books are primitive, savage and morally bankrupt. The Big Ten commandments are barely suited for children under the age of ten. Depending how you count the last six or seven belong in the "tell me something I didn't know" category for all adults who are not sociopaths.

The conceit that monotheism is in some manner superior to polytheism is nothing but mere assertion. And it is worthless to debate as none, one or many is what it is and is completely beyond human control and unswayed by human beliefs. That is, one may be intellectually superior in some sense to many but reality is unaffected by human opinion of which is superior. Which is all OBE because the OT is polytheist.

The people are clearly polytheists in the stories. The priests of the Yahweh cult won by military force not moral suasion. They were merely against the priests of the other god cults.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


A_Nony_Mouse
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FurryCatHerder wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

  Well suit yourself.  I thought calling people out on their bullshit is what happens here almost daily.  Look at the level of debate that occurs here from most theists that come here, especially regarding hard science supposedly "proving" their particular god belief.  Yet they are engaged by the atheist science nerds almost ad infinitum.

We atheists here are subjected to an anti-atheist bigotry almost from the get-go.  We are reviled by most all of the "True Believers™"   We deserve to go to Hell, we have no real Morals....blah blah.

edit:  as far as the tactic of "baffling with bull shit" well sorry to say but that seems to be the major tactic that most theists of any category throw at  atheists.  But really, what else have they got to fall back on ?  ....yet the dialog continues between us.

Nony could provide a limited number -- let's call it 2 or 3 -- of peer-reviewed scholarly articles on the subject of the supposed Greek origins of Hebrew.  What's happened instead is repeated assertions and references to some "bittorrent stream" of documents.

You did not even look at it as if you had you would have seen it is one book which does in fact satisfy what you pretend to want but really do not want.

Quote:
Hebrew "works" like other Semetic languages and the amount of effort needed to go from, say, Hebrew to Arabic, is far less than the effort needed to go from Hebrew to Greek.  That the LXX is NOT a representation of some originally Greek document is proven by errors in idiomatic translation between "some original language" and the LXX where the Hebrew makes sense and the Greek does not.  That's "jacks or better to open".  The rest of the proof has long since been provided by linguists which, to this very day, place Hebrew within a specific set of Semetic languages and the Afro-Asiatic language family, and NOT within any form of Greek or the Indo-European language family.

Errors? That would be a shock to the priest Josephus as well as those who advised the Emperor Julian as well as the Talmud writers. The Letter of Aristeas (although a forgery) claims perfect translation. Josephus cites it as evidence of a perfect translation. It is only after the Masoretic appears, which is a condensation of the DSS version which in turn is a condensation of the Septuagint, that there are claims of errors. As there were no claims of errors prior to the abbreviated Masoretic version one must reasonably conclude the errors are in the Masoretic. Certainly Josephus nor the advisors of Julian mentioned errors in translation. One would expect to read of errors from the beginning if at the time Judean priests knew of such errors.

There is nothing new in that paragraph. It is all quite well known. You will have to do a lot more to explain why there are no claims of errors in translation until after the Masoretic appears and the exact opposite prior to the Masoretic.

=====

The Aristeas letter gives a rather rational description of the translation process. It is the later Mishna and Talmud which introduce miracles into the translation story to account for the miraculous accuracy of the Septuagint translation.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


A_Nony_Mouse
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Brian37 wrote:
...

Prozac, Noony IS a bigot, he is going way beyond merely saying "bullshit". He has had a few years here blaming Jews for everything. It is conspiracy crap on the level of faked moon landing.

Personal attack is not adding to the discussion.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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FurryCatHerder wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
Ktulu wrote:
This thread is losing focus fast... 

           Well the majority of exchanges between Furry and Nony are quite interesting and a little drama from Brian with some ALL CAPS thrown in, what's the big deal ?

He has yet to fully grasp that failing to damn Zionism is like praising the Nazis or the Klan.

Anti-zionism is a moral imperative.

Believe me, if Zionism were even remotely on par with the NAZIs or the Klan, I'd be all over Zionism like white on rice.  And having mentioned the NAZIs, according to Godwin's Law, you've now lost the debate, so kindly STFU.

I brought up the Nazis because they copied Herzl's basic premise, that Jews could never assimilate into Europe. As my alter ego says

Jewish people, German people
Chosen people, Herrnvolk
Zionists, Neonazis
Its all the same in practice.
        -- The Iron Webmaster, 4369

Quote:
"Zionism" is nothing more than the realization that there is only =one= place on this entire planet where we have enough of a legitimate claim to "belong there" that we can go that doesn't involve being murdered because we don't "belong" wherever else we happen to be.

If one were to take that claim seriously it would be Judea only, not Samaria, the Galilee or Iodumaea. There is no evidence of the Yahweh cult being extended beyond Judea save by military conquest as described by Josephus.

That said, Palestine is the most dangerous place in the world for Jews today. It never was very safe with the constant risk of revolt by Galileans and Samaritans. And their original scheming playing off the Ptolemys and Seleucids is what started their problems. Believers really should read 1,2 Macabes and Josephus. They would learn something beyond the pablum their rebbes feed them.

That said, the zionists chose Palestine for political reasons. It was so they could sell the ancestral home idea, the Vaterland idea they cribbed from the late 19th c. Germany of Bismarck.

Now imagine if the Taglit trips were to tell the real history instead of being an indoctrination campaign.

Quote:
Contrary to whatever bogus propaganda you've read -- the same bogus propaganda that has you completely lost when it comes to fundamental laws of Physics -- the problem of Jews in Eretz Yisrael is NOT NOT NOT caused, in any way, shape or form, by Zionism.  The problems are caused by theological imperatives with Islam.  There is a THEOLOGICAL belief that once a land has been conquered by Muslims, it must be protected and defended, at any and all costs, against the loss of that land to any other religion.  Furthermore, because Islam is a displacement theology, there is a THEOLOGICAL belief that Judaism is wrong and that Jews need to convert or be subjected to discriminatory practices as well as military action.  Failure to drive out the "infidel" from lands that were once conquered by Muslims is a SIN within Islam.

That is similar to the line of BS I get from Brian. There is no theology in the matter. The Palestinian issue was and still is ownership of the land. The issue is theft of the land beginning in 1949 with the absentee owners law. It quite simple. If a Palestinian was absent from his property for two years (it varied) their land reverted to the state. On the other hande if they tried to return to their land they were murdered as infiltrators if from outside Israel or for violating curfew if they were outside their ghettos after hours if they were inside Israel.

That is called theft under color of law.

Beside Ben Gurion knew and stated what is well known. The Palestinians at least from the region of Judea were converts from Judaism to Islam and Christianity. Religion has no bearing upon property ownership. The Invention of the Jewish People, by Sand, an Israeli and Jewish historian is available from Amazon is well established and did not need him to expose it. His credentials merely made it more difficult for the Zionists to ignore. It took them years to pretend all the documention of Zionist expulsion of Palestinians in 1948 by historians both Israeli and Jewish using Israeli government records did not exist.

Quote:
But more to the historical point, what created the earliest conflicts between Zionists and Muslims in Eretz Yisrael is that we did whatever they wanted when we went to buy land because they thought "Hey, it's okay to screw the Jews!"

It is simple to get people to agree that the Indians should have united after 1492 to keep the Europeans out of the Americas. The same argument applies to the Palestinians when the Europeans arrived. Same principle save the Jews openly stated they were going to take over and throw out the Palestinians. That can be traced to Herzl's diaries, rabbis in Palestine in 1917 and Jabotinsky's Iron Wall. Call it a Joshua complex. (We stole it before and we can steal it again!)

Quote:
We bought marsh and swamp land, malaria-infested parts of Eretz Yisrael, from the Ottoman Turks as well as Arabs, and turned in into productive land.

When one looks at the facts, it was one small tract of land. Draining it was financed by Lord Rothschild and used Palestinian labor. You should research propaganda before spouting it.

Propaganda == Hasbara == Isreality

Quote:
And this caused the next religious showdown -- the only way a non-Muslim, according to Islamic THEOLOGY, prospers is by theft, fraud, deceit, etc.  As we recovered more and more land, they jacked up the prices, and Jews outside of Eretz Yisrael poured money into the Zionist movement to pay what they were demanding -- that's why so much land, all with valid records for PURCHASING the land from its rightful Ottoman or Arab land-owners, was bought by the Jewish National Fund.

Brian has NEVER posted a single theological issue supporting such a claim despite numerous challenges. I hereby challenge you to produce the Palestinians claims based upon theology. Feel free to quote extensively. You are free to use all of the PLO and their predecessor Christians resistance leaders as well as Fatah, Hamas and the present Palestinian Authority as sources. CITE the theological statements, produce the evidence, else have the courtesy to admit you are making it up.

That said, the amount of land purchased is recognized by everyone as being around 7% of Mandate Palestine. Where are you going to go with so little?

Quote:
But it gets better -- as we developed the land for agricultural purposes, many of the Jewish families who'd contributed to BUY the land and PAY for its reclamation, moved to Eretz Yisrael.  Arabs, who saw the new kibutzim as opportunities for agricultural work, flocked to Eretz Yisrael and then discovered that the people who PAID to BUY the land that was RECLAIMED were intending to work it.  This created intense animosity which resulted in frequent attacks on Jews who were living on land they had BOUGHT and PAID FOR, often at significant multiples to it's price, had it been offered for sale to a Muslim.

The one ex-swamp was not all the large, well 1/10 of 1%, and used as a propaganda showcase. Were you really suckered into believing an arid land had enough swamps to be noticeable? Taglit? Or do you just want to believe? Or do you think I am dumb enough to fall for the propaganda that is regularly ridiculed in the Jerusalem Post and Haaretz? 

As to the attacks, some did in fact listen to the wannabe cowboys who thought the American West was a role model and did try to get rid of the Europeans. Manhattan may have been bought for beads but still killing them off to discourage the rest would have been a wise thing for the natives to do. Same thing applies in Palestine.

Quote:
The final coup de gras, they thought, was the attack in 1948 by the surrounding Arab states.  After several decades of continual attacks by Arab Muslims against the Jewish population, including aligning with Germany in both WWI and WWII, the Arab states tried to destroy the newly declared State of Israel.  Arabs that stayed put and didn't attack or pose a threat to Israel were left alone, for the most part -- that's why there is a large Arab population =inside= of Israel today.  Many Arabs living in Israel were promised that they'd be given Jewish property if they'd just kindly get out of the way of the advancing Arab armies.  So they did -- they FREELY CHOSE to side with the aggressors in the 1948 war and tried to aid in the destruction of Israel.  When the war was over they wanted to move home, but they'd demonstrated their willingness to help destroy Israel and, thankfully, haven't been allowed back in.  Our victory in the '48 war, and every other war since, continues to be seen through the lens of Islam -- we only won those wars because we "cheated" -- non-Muslims cannot have anything "good" happen unless we "cheat" somehow.

Rather one can look at it rather more simply, the land was not the UN's to give. Besides, Um Shmum, why should they care any more about the UN than Jews? (If you do not know the Um Shmum reference you really are ignorant of Israel.) For a country that owes its existence to the UN it is certainly disrespectful of it.

As for the "promises" and being told to leave the war zone and such no one has ever produced a single bit of physical evidence of such. They are all Israeli propaganda absent physical evidence to the contrary.

BTW: if they had not been expelled, if the Arabs had done nothing, Zionism would have been shitcanned in the first elections. That is why Benny Morris, one of the historians who exposed the expulsion by terrorist zionists, has said it was a good thing else Israel would not exist.
 

Of course it is not reasonable to say you zionists cheat any more than to say the squatters in the Americas cheated because the folks back in Europe supported European colonists against the native population. The issue is simply that the Palestinians like the Indians should have started killing off the Europeans from day one. A tragic mistake on the part of both. Foreigners showing up en masse are always up to no good.

Quote:
Since the '48 war, the same types of antics that prevailed from about 1890 through the '30s and '40s continued.  We'd buy something from an Arab, and actually expect to get to live in or use our property.  They'd engage in acts of violence, the same as from the 1890's through the 1920's when Great Britain tried to straighten things out, and when the negative consequences of their actions happened, they'd cry "Foul!" and want a do-over.  When the Jews who bought and paid for whatever it was we bought and paid for, Arabs would be further infuriated because we actually expected to use what we actually bought and paid for, many times at greatly inflated prices.  As a result of violence wherever Jews and Muslims interacted, more moderate Arabs would sell out, almost invariably to Jews, who'd then be accused of whatever crime was en vogue at the moment.  And if Jews engaged in self-defense, we'd be accused of still more crimes.

First off if one is dumb enough to pay inflated prices then don't whine about it later. Stupid is as stupid does.

Second when the centuries old custom of buying rental property is to continue to rent it, throwing out the renters is something new that pisses off the renters. The ownership customs of masse/ from Europe notwithstanding. The natives do not have to like it any more than the Indians like European ideas of ownership.

Third, ownership by purchase was never more than 7% so it is immaterial to the discussion.

Quote:
This is where we stand today.  Arab Muslims attack Jews, Jews engage in self-defense, this creates conflict at the borders of the conflict, Arabs sell out to Jewish buyers, Jews move in to their property, more attacks, more violence, more selling out.  If you look at land ownership patterns throughout Judea and Samaria, there is a gradual erosion of Arab land ownership as their co-religionists' violent acts drive them from their own land.  Because the problem is that Jews refuse to convert to Islam, it's our fault, period.  It is simply never the fault of the Muslims who are turning their children into walking bombs and it is never the fault of their political and religious leaders who've not pointed out that the Qur'an also says that when Muslims =don't= prevail, it really can be their own damned fault.  Which it is, and which it has been, for well over 100 years now.

Where you stand today is the recognized absolute right in international law to resist military occupation with indiscriminate lethal force without limit or reservation. If Israel would end the occupation, end the military dictatorship it might be different.

As to your favored ideas of morality, read my sig. Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. The theft refers to the absentee owners laws which are clearly theft under color of law in any legal code and grossly immoral by all versions of human rights in property.

And of course it is a zionist lie that claims are based upon Islam. Please feel free to quote those who have based their claims upon Islam. I have read of hundreds. All have involved land deeds and have involved legal property rights. If you are unfamiliar with such subjects please learn then instead of BSing me with simplistic zionist propaganda.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


A_Nony_Mouse
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Ktulu wrote:
FurryCatHerder wrote:
ProzacDeathWish wrote:
  So reason it out with him.  Tone down the ANGER IN YOUR POSTS BECAUSE IT MAKES PEOPLE TUNE YOU OUT !!!!!!
+1.
+2

It would be good to have replies from those who disagree with me to do other than repeat their previous assertions in other than all caps. If the wogs don't understand, speak louder. That is all I usually get.

Any way to encourage discussion of facts is greatly appreciated.

This stuff has been sort of a hobby of mine for more decades than most here have been alive. I simply collected facts over the years and made sense of them. (Pulling both rank and senility at the same time is not always wise.) This is not the first forum in which I have discussed these ideas. What I usually find is people becoming very pissed when I will not concede their premises particularly when their premises are culturally shared religious traditions.

For example, whether or not one is religious the idea that the Old Testament was written in bibleland is nothing more than a religious tradition. When one examines that tradition one finds it rests solely upon the long exposed forgery known as the Letter of Aristeas. Period. There is no other basis for the belief. There is no physical evidence supporting the belief.

When I looked further into it I did not find what I expected to find. I expected to find the OT viewed in ancient times as Jews view it today. I found only evidence that it was not considered differently from stories of the Greek and Roman gods, never cited as authoritative in context where it should have been invoked as such as in Against Apion.

I found similar problems with Chrisianity. (Pardon it is late but I think--) It was Marcion who said the god of Jesus was so different from the god of Abraham that it had to be a different god. The one most obvious response which one would rationally expect of monotheists is absent. We do not find, "Marcion you idiot! Everyone knows there is only one god." All the arguments are that it has to be the same god. These are supposed to be monotheists?

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Quote:"Zionism" is nothing

Quote:
"Zionism" is nothing more than the realization that there is only =one= place on this entire planet where we have enough of a legitimate claim to "belong there

No you don't. That is just as bad as Noony's sig. Which does give him an argument. My point to him has been whatever argument he may have, the past is the past, and it would be like America giving back land to Native Americans. You are just as stuck in the past as he is.

Our species has been around for 500,000 years. There is only one planet and one species. No one is special. If Israel gets wiped off the face of the planet, our species will continue. If China Nukes America and wipes us off the face of the planet, our species will continue.

WHAT causes all human conflict is this type of narcissism. Both you and Noony pick arbitrary points in history and say "THIS GIVE ME THE RIGHT'.

No, no one owns this planet, there is only one planet and one species.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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FurryCatHerder wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
Ktulu wrote:
This thread is losing focus fast... 

           Well the majority of exchanges between Furry and Nony are quite interesting and a little drama from Brian with some ALL CAPS thrown in, what's the big deal ?

He has yet to fully grasp that failing to damn Zionism is like praising the Nazis or the Klan.

Anti-zionism is a moral imperative.

Believe me, if Zionism were even remotely on par with the NAZIs or the Klan, I'd be all over Zionism like white on rice.  And having mentioned the NAZIs, according to Godwin's Law, you've now lost the debate, so kindly STFU.

Except of course calling Nazi is what anti-zionist Jews in Israel do all the time, at least once a month it makes the news. This is just yesterday's example.

www.haaretz.com/news/national/israeli-politicians-decry-ultra-orthodox-protesters-use-of-holocaust-imagery-1.404855

These are real Jews not you Reform wannabes, not you European fake Jews. These are the same real Jews who campaign against the Zionists which I linked in another post to which you did not respond. If I have lost real Jews have lost.

 

Real Jews means as described in the OT meaning compliance with all 613 laws of the Torah. (Your count will vary.) The OT is repleat with "Those who keep MY (613) laws" and such. If you do not then you are not. End of discussion.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
"Zionism" is nothing more than the realization that there is only =one= place on this entire planet where we have enough of a legitimate claim to "belong there

No you don't. That is just as bad as Noony's sig. Which does give him an argument. My point to him has been whatever argument he may have, the past is the past, and it would be like America giving back land to Native Americans. You are just as stuck in the past as he is.

Our species has been around for 500,000 years. There is only one planet and one species. No one is special. If Israel gets wiped off the face of the planet, our species will continue. If China Nukes America and wipes us off the face of the planet, our species will continue.

WHAT causes all human conflict is this type of narcissism. Both you and Noony pick arbitrary points in history and say "THIS GIVE ME THE RIGHT'.

No, no one owns this planet, there is only one planet and one species.

Did you ever notice you post like a 15 year old girl looking for something to care about to be accepted as caring? It sounds so silly giving out "we are the world" from the 1970s. Have you considered growing up?

In any event 100 to 130 kyr max for our species by present estimates.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:In any

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

In any event 100 to 130 kyr max for our species by present estimates.

   I'm can't help but be curious as to when homo sapiens finally goes the way of the Dodo bird.  The death of humanity will mean our "gods" die with us.


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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:Ktulu

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Ktulu wrote:
FurryCatHerder wrote:
ProzacDeathWish wrote:
  So reason it out with him.  Tone down the ANGER IN YOUR POSTS BECAUSE IT MAKES PEOPLE TUNE YOU OUT !!!!!!
+1.
+2

It would be good to have replies from those who disagree with me to do other than repeat their previous assertions in other than all caps. If the wogs don't understand, speak louder. That is all I usually get.

Any way to encourage discussion of facts is greatly appreciated.

I'll be the first to admit I don't know much (other then headlines and passing interest) regarding the whole middle eastern conflict.  I see you have a lot of time and energy invested in this.  You also seem too emotionally invested.  It sort of puts one on the defense, especially in an environment like this (RRS).  

I also admit I don't care as much, in the grand scheme of things.  I don't see this particular conflict to be special, considering all the other active conflicts (Africa comes to mind)... I just don't see why you care sooooo much unless there's more to it then meets the eye.

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:Brian37

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
"Zionism" is nothing more than the realization that there is only =one= place on this entire planet where we have enough of a legitimate claim to "belong there

No you don't. That is just as bad as Noony's sig. Which does give him an argument. My point to him has been whatever argument he may have, the past is the past, and it would be like America giving back land to Native Americans. You are just as stuck in the past as he is.

Our species has been around for 500,000 years. There is only one planet and one species. No one is special. If Israel gets wiped off the face of the planet, our species will continue. If China Nukes America and wipes us off the face of the planet, our species will continue.

WHAT causes all human conflict is this type of narcissism. Both you and Noony pick arbitrary points in history and say "THIS GIVE ME THE RIGHT'.

No, no one owns this planet, there is only one planet and one species.

Did you ever notice you post like a 15 year old girl looking for something to care about to be accepted as caring? It sounds so silly giving out "we are the world" from the 1970s. Have you considered growing up?

In any event 100 to 130 kyr max for our species by present estimates.

"She's one of them", your words, not mine. If anyone needs a lesson in maturity you do.

BOTH of you have picked arbitrary starting points in history to justify your positions.

Now, again, it seems neither of you understand "I was here first" has a shelf life. What seems to be lost on BOTH of you is the entirety of human evolution in that powers shift and geopolitical landscapes changed.

If you are going to be consistent with "Jews stole the land" then why don't you advocate Native Americans blowing up buses and terrorist tactics? Their land was stolen too.

Now Furry doesn't get a pass either. She thinks via proxy of her label or "race" that Jews are entitled to that region.

Both you and she are being as stupid as any black person  who uses the word "brother" as if they are all directly related. Reggie AKA Infidel Guy, who is black doesn't even like the word black. He considers his complexion dark brown. And most certainly he does not think, outside his DNA family, does he think he is related to another black person because of label.

Palestinians are not made up of little green men based on Allah or DNA.  Israel is not made up of poisonous vipers based on Yahweh or DNA. There are merely humans who think that a label means entitlement.

Muslims siding with Muslims only means they side with Muslims, it does not mean they are related or that their god is real. Jews are the same. Holding a label only means you share a label.

Jews are not a family, Muslims are not a family, atheists are not a family, blacks are not a family. There are merely people who flock together because of labels, which has constantly allowed our species to be divided.

BOTH sides need to try what has worked for the west for the past 200 years. A little more secular neutral government(on the issue of religion) and a little less dogmatism and "MY LAND" based on tradition and religion.

"THE JEWS STOLE THE LAND"

Yea and "She's one of them"

And you want to give me a lesson on how to be mature. Laughable.

How about this for "we are the world"?

BOTH OF YOU ARE BEING FUCKING STUPID.

"My land my land my land my land" We are NOT the world dumbass, and neither of you have peace because you are both (collectively, not as individuals) too damned stupid to see each other as the same species.

If both sides skipped the damned religious labels, and skipped the history, and looked to the future together, things would get better.

I.m not looking for a fucking Hall Mark card. Just trying to get BOTH sides to let go of the past. Don't forget the past, just at some point since BOTH SIDES say they want peace, then HOW FUCKING HARD CAN THAT BE?

I'd say the history of this conflict wont let either side give an inch. And you want to give me a lesson on maturity?

I am not looking for a Candy Land. Palestine is, Israel is. And until you BOTH get to a secular resolution together each side trying to seek a utopia is what is fucking things up.

"We are the world" yea except one thing, I wasn't selling that as Candy Land. In the real world when a human is hungry, they are hungry. In the real world when a human has no job, they have no job. In the real world if you kill someone's family member, they feel pain. In the real world if they kill your family member you feel pain.

I'm not looking for a utopia, just looking for both sides to end their pissing contest. She says "My land", you side with Palestine and their "my land".

BIG WHOOPTY doo. If this were in America it would be the Hatfield's and McCoys.

 

 

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

In any event 100 to 130 kyr max for our species by present estimates.

   I'm can't help but be curious as to when homo sapiens finally goes the way of the Dodo bird.  The death of humanity will mean our "gods" die with us.

That would mean the pimple of the universe would be lanced. I wish the universe was a god so it could pop this needless shit right now. But since I live in reality, I accept the ride of delusion is popular and there is no god, nor is the universe a god itself.

You said it, when we go extinct no Hindu, or Muslim, Or Christian, or Jewish god will be around. Our myths will die with us.

Now since we live in reality, atheists DO have to accept that these delusions will happen. I think the best humans can do for the future, is not to strive for utopias where others don't annoy us, but to use scrutiny and questioning to keep any potential harm at a minimum.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
"Zionism" is nothing more than the realization that there is only =one= place on this entire planet where we have enough of a legitimate claim to "belong there

No you don't.

Nope, that really is all that Zionism is.  The only part of this rock that we've had any historical claim to occupation is "Eretz Yisrael".  The only way to guarantee that future generations of Jews aren't driven out of their country -- as my ancestors were in the 19th century on at least two different occasions, is to go back to where we came from.

That Jews have occupied the Land of Israel =continuously= for the past 3,500 to 5,000 years (or more ...) is reason enough to say "this is our homeland".

We know, with absolute certainty, how the current situation got to where it is.  That's one of the major advantages of having a religion that is also a "nation" and a "people" -- popes come and popes go, and bishops come and go, and sects come and go.  But Jews share a culture, land, language, history, religion, "nationhood", etc.

"Baptist" and "Catholic" and "Muslim" all fit that "label" thing you've got going.  We aren't a "label".  We're a people, and Nony can shove that where the sun doesn't shine, and you're more than welcome to join him in that shoving if you don't understand the difference between a =people= and a religion.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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Brian37 wrote:Jews are not a

Brian37 wrote:

Jews are not a family, Muslims are not a family, atheists are not a family, blacks are not a family. There are merely people who flock together because of labels, which has constantly allowed our species to be divided.

The hell we aren't!

Jews are more closely related to other Jews than to any other group, period.  Our next closest relatives are Arabs.

Those are both =facts=.  Not religious myths, not "labels", not "wishful thinking".

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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Quote:Nope, that really is

Quote:
Nope, that really is all that Zionism is.  The only part of this rock that we've had any historical claim to occupation is "Eretz Yisrael".  The only way to guarantee that future generations of Jews aren't driven out of their country

Right. Same stupid mistake Christians make in claiming "Christian nation" in laying claim to America.

Neither you or he get it. "Claims" to land have a shelf life. An expiration date.

Evolution is about competing for resources, so we have to accept that will happen.

But way after the fact when EITHER SIDE is bitching about what their ancestors lost seems absurd. Or laying claims to what our ancestors established is FUCKING ABSURD!

All humans have is NOW, and the future. Neither of you seem to want to get that.

And what makes you think Muslims want to be driven out of their land? And what makes you think what Europeans did to Native Americans in driving them out of their land was right?

All I hear from both of you is "I am a Jew, I am right"

"I am a Palestinian, I am right"

And what happens? More people die.

Kudos to both sides to pandering to the worst humanity has to offer.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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Quote:Those are both

Quote:
Those are both =facts=.  Not religious myths, not "labels", not "wishful thinking".

ANY claim of a thinking life without an evolutionary process is a MYTH.

If either Palestinian Muslims or Israeli Jews understood they were fighting over fiction, there would be no conflict.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Brian37 wrote:Quote:Those

Brian37 wrote:

 

ANY claim of a thinking life without an evolutionary process is a MYTH.

If either Palestinian Muslims or Israeli Jews understood they were fighting over fiction, there would be no conflict.

 

 

Do you believe that in Northern Ireland that the Catholic IRA and the Protestant Loyalists are actually fighting over religious differences ?


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Real Politic

Just a question...

There are a little over 14 million Jews worldwide.
There are over a Billion Muslims.

Whose ass should we be kissing, politically speaking?

 

LC >;-}>

 

Christianity: A disgusting middle eastern blood cult, based in human sacrifice, with sacraments of cannibalism and vampirism, whose highest icon is of a near naked man hanging in torment from a device of torture.


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Brian37 wrote:Quote:Those

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
Those are both =facts=.  Not religious myths, not "labels", not "wishful thinking".

ANY claim of a thinking life without an evolutionary process is a MYTH.

If either Palestinian Muslims or Israeli Jews understood they were fighting over fiction, there would be no conflict.

It is NOT a fiction, you ignorant f*ck, that the Jewish people are a =people=.

Go study Genetic Genealogy, then come back and tell me that we're fighting for a "fiction".

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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ProzacDeathWish wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
In any event 100 to 130 kyr max for our species by present estimates.

I'm can't help but be curious as to when homo sapiens finally goes the way of the Dodo bird.  The death of humanity will mean our "gods" die with us.

Gods undergo regular extinction events.

Who mourns Adonis?

Up until likely no more than 10,000 years ago all of our ancestors were gods. Do we mourn their passing?

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Ktulu wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
Ktulu wrote:
FurryCatHerder wrote:
ProzacDeathWish wrote:
  So reason it out with him.  Tone down the ANGER IN YOUR POSTS BECAUSE IT MAKES PEOPLE TUNE YOU OUT !!!!!!
+1.
+2

It would be good to have replies from those who disagree with me to do other than repeat their previous assertions in other than all caps. If the wogs don't understand, speak louder. That is all I usually get.

Any way to encourage discussion of facts is greatly appreciated.

I'll be the first to admit I don't know much (other then headlines and passing interest) regarding the whole middle eastern conflict.  I see you have a lot of time and energy invested in this.  You also seem too emotionally invested.  It sort of puts one on the defense, especially in an environment like this (RRS).  

I also admit I don't care as much, in the grand scheme of things.  I don't see this particular conflict to be special, considering all the other active conflicts (Africa comes to mind)... I just don't see why you care sooooo much unless there's more to it then meets the eye.

More politics than emotion. I'm in the US. Izziehugging is part and parcel with the craze for forcing religion onto the political system. The country is filled with brain-dead rednecks backing Israel. If Americans were to swear their undying support for Spain they would rightly be considered to have suspect loyalties. Dual citizens are not only considered suspect but are prohibited by law from holding security clearances. The same applies to all the supporters of Israel and the malignancy of dual citizenship with any other country.

It did in fact apply and for many still does apply to Catholics. It made more sense before Garibaldi when the Pope was the head of state of most of central Italy.

That said the situation is not going to change any time soon and certainly not on my account. In which case the ungrateful little shits need to be brought to heel. They own their existence to the US. They get at least 3% of their "federal" budget from the US every year and it has gone over 10% in some years, 13% in one year. And they refuse to do as they are told. And the US takes it because of all those supporting that foreign country.

It does not help the US position to support Israel regardless of their war crimes. It operates the longest running tryannical military dictatorship in modern history. Maybe even since military dictatorships were invented. Certainly longer than those run by Italy and Germany.

Support of Israel is of no benefit to the US despite the ignorant who make up benefits they do not understand and which anyone who thinks about it can see are nonsense.

I merely shoot down the nonsense about Israel wherever it rears its ugly head.

 

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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FurryCatHerder wrote:
Brian37 wrote:
Jews are not a family, Muslims are not a family, atheists are not a family, blacks are not a family. There are merely people who flock together because of labels, which has constantly allowed our species to be divided.

The hell we aren't!

Jews are more closely related to other Jews than to any other group, period.  Our next closest relatives are Arabs.

Those are both =facts=.  Not religious myths, not "labels", not "wishful thinking".

Only a diehard believer could accept the oddball idea that religion can be passed by ancestry. It is equally absurd to hold ancestry means more than something for casual conversation. The idea of a nation was invented after the Treaty of Westphalia and did not exist before that time.

The Ashkenazi and Mizrani are no closer genetically than their different geographic origin suggest. The Ashkenazi are closely related to their fellow eastern Europeans while the other are most closely related to their fellow Palestinians.

BTW: The oldest mention of Palestinians in history was in the mid 5th c. BC by Herodotus who makes seven mentions of them. He also makes two lists of the named groups in the region. There are no Judeans on either list. Considering one of the lists is of groups who practice circumcision the absence of mention of Judeans means there is no rational reason to assume they existed in the 5th c.

Thus IF we make the absurd assumption that having lived in a region grants a claim to ownership of the region then the Palestinians have the oldest historical claim.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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FurryCatHerder wrote:Brian37

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
Those are both =facts=.  Not religious myths, not "labels", not "wishful thinking".

ANY claim of a thinking life without an evolutionary process is a MYTH.

If either Palestinian Muslims or Israeli Jews understood they were fighting over fiction, there would be no conflict.

It is NOT a fiction, you ignorant f*ck, that the Jewish people are a =people=.

Go study Genetic Genealogy, then come back and tell me that we're fighting for a "fiction".

 

Furry, take a chill pill.  And go read these studies.

http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=600

The people who call themselves "Jewish" are not unique from the other populations in the Middle East.  They are not even genetically the same within the group - Ashkenazi is a different population from Sephardic and so on.  This goes for Noony as well, the Palestinians are indistinguishable from the Jewish population.

Also, Moses did not exist, the Passover didn't happen and neither did the Exodus.  Canaanite peoples were not monotheists until about 600 BCE long after Moses supposedly lived in Egypt.  The word "Jew" is younger than that.  No mention of a Canaanite foster brother for any pharaoh, no evidence the pyramids were built by slaves from any nation (actually archaeological evidence is to the contrary - the builders were very well treated), no sign of thousands of people roaming the desert for any length of time let alone 40 years, no evidence of a global flood, no evidence of an economic downturn in Egypt as one would expect if the populace had suffered many plagues.  And so on and so forth.  Interesting myths, but that is all the OT is.

See The Bible Unearthed by Finkelstein and Silberman and most any recent archaeology text on ancient Egypt.  I say recent as for a long time, archaeologists kept trying to fit data into the bible stories - they have given it up as a bad deal.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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Louis_Cypher wrote:

Just a question...

There are a little over 14 million Jews worldwide.
There are over a Billion Muslims.

Whose ass should we be kissing, politically speaking?

LC >;-}>

Neither. Treat them all the same. Instead Muslims can be labeled terrorists while the jewish terrorists get a pass. Admittedly their Brooklyn accents might have something to do with it.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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FurryCatHerder wrote:
Brian37 wrote:
Quote:
Those are both =facts=.  Not religious myths, not "labels", not "wishful thinking".
ANY claim of a thinking life without an evolutionary process is a MYTH.

If either Palestinian Muslims or Israeli Jews understood they were fighting over fiction, there would be no conflict.

It is NOT a fiction, you ignorant f*ck, that the Jewish people are a =people=.

Go study Genetic Genealogy, then come back and tell me that we're fighting for a "fiction".

I have read the papers on genetics and what I can find of Sforzi on the subject. European Jews are Europeans save for the Cohenim which matches the story about the Khazars importing rabbis to teach the new religion. BTW: It is not discredited. Jews simply started saying it was discredited after research confirmed the matter.

Sidebar: Last year archaeologists announced the discovery of what they think was the capital of the Khazars.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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cj wrote:
...

Furry, take a chill pill.  And go read these studies.

http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=600

The people who call themselves "Jewish" are not unique from the other populations in the Middle East.  They are not even genetically the same within the group - Ashkenazi is a different population from Sephardic and so on.  This goes for Noony as well, the Palestinians are indistinguishable from the Jewish population.

Also, Moses did not exist, the Passover didn't happen and neither did the Exodus.  Canaanite peoples were not monotheists until about 600 BCE long after Moses supposedly lived in Egypt.  The word "Jew" is younger than that.  No mention of a Canaanite foster brother for any pharaoh, no evidence the pyramids were built by slaves from any nation (actually archaeological evidence is to the contrary - the builders were very well treated), no sign of thousands of people roaming the desert for any length of time let alone 40 years, no evidence of a global flood, no evidence of an economic downturn in Egypt as one would expect if the populace had suffered many plagues.  And so on and so forth.  Interesting myths, but that is all the OT is.

See The Bible Unearthed by Finkelstein and Silberman and most any recent archaeology text on ancient Egypt.  I say recent as for a long time, archaeologists kept trying to fit data into the bible stories - they have given it up as a bad deal.

There is no evidence the idea of monotheism existed before it was invented by Mohamed.

If you like the 600BC date you are probably thinking of the idea popular in the 1990s that it was brought back when the Jews returned from captivity in Babylon. The captivity thing is also a myth. There is no evidence to support it. It is a discredited idea.

Josephus clearly states the Jews are called that because the came from Judea. Jews only means Judeans.

There is no evidence for the existence of Judea prior to the mid 2nd c. BC. The Yahweh cult was imposed upon Judea by the Maccabes with the support of the Ptolemeys at that time.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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FurryCatHerder wrote:
...

It is NOT a fiction, you ignorant f*ck, that the Jewish people are a =people=.

Go study Genetic Genealogy, then come back and tell me that we're fighting for a "fiction".

www.amazon.com/Invention-Jewish-People-Shlomo-Sand/dp/1844676234/ref=sr_1_1

 

The Invention of the Jewish People [Paperback]

Shlomo Sand (Author), Yael Lotan (Translator)

 

Bestselling new analysis of Jewish history by a leading Israeli historian.

A historical tour de force, The Invention of the Jewish People offers a groundbreaking account of Jewish and Israeli history. Exploding the myth that there was a forced Jewish exile in the first century at the hands of the Romans, Israeli historian Shlomo Sand argues that most modern Jews descend from converts, whose native lands were scattered across the Middle East and Eastern Europe.

In this iconoclastic work, which spent nineteen weeks on the Israeli bestseller list and won the coveted Aujourd'hui Award in France, Sand provides the intellectual foundations for a new vision of Israel’s future.

Shlomo Sand studied history at the University of Tel Aviv and at the École des hautes études en sciences sociales, in Paris. He currently teaches contemporary history at the University of Tel Aviv. His books include The Invention of the Jewish People, L'Illusion du politique: Georges Sorel et le débat intellectuel 1900, Georges Sorel en son temps, Le XXe siècle à l'écran and Les Mots et la terre: les intellectuels en Israël.

=====

The idea of a people as a nationalist group was invented in the late 19th c., AD of course. As the author notes the Jews only considered others to be Jews if they were observant of the Torah, period, no exceptions, prior to that time. The idea of Jews as a people was cribbed mainly from Bismarck but he did not invent but rather was one of the implementers uniting the German people under a single government.

It was published in 2008. To date none of his detractors have found a single example to contradict him. It would only take one. But since everyone who has studied the history of Europe and geopolitics knows when the idea was invented so no knowledgeable person is wasting time looking. Mostly he is rehashing old news for reading by the general public.
 

You are the one who claimed to want references. Why not try reading them some day?

 

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


cj
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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:cj

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

cj wrote:
...

Furry, take a chill pill.  And go read these studies.

http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=600

The people who call themselves "Jewish" are not unique from the other populations in the Middle East.  They are not even genetically the same within the group - Ashkenazi is a different population from Sephardic and so on.  This goes for Noony as well, the Palestinians are indistinguishable from the Jewish population.

Also, Moses did not exist, the Passover didn't happen and neither did the Exodus.  Canaanite peoples were not monotheists until about 600 BCE long after Moses supposedly lived in Egypt.  The word "Jew" is younger than that.  No mention of a Canaanite foster brother for any pharaoh, no evidence the pyramids were built by slaves from any nation (actually archaeological evidence is to the contrary - the builders were very well treated), no sign of thousands of people roaming the desert for any length of time let alone 40 years, no evidence of a global flood, no evidence of an economic downturn in Egypt as one would expect if the populace had suffered many plagues.  And so on and so forth.  Interesting myths, but that is all the OT is.

See The Bible Unearthed by Finkelstein and Silberman and most any recent archaeology text on ancient Egypt.  I say recent as for a long time, archaeologists kept trying to fit data into the bible stories - they have given it up as a bad deal.

There is no evidence the idea of monotheism existed before it was invented by Mohamed.

If you like the 600BC date you are probably thinking of the idea popular in the 1990s that it was brought back when the Jews returned from captivity in Babylon. The captivity thing is also a myth. There is no evidence to support it. It is a discredited idea.

Josephus clearly states the Jews are called that because the came from Judea. Jews only means Judeans.

There is no evidence for the existence of Judea prior to the mid 2nd c. BC. The Yahweh cult was imposed upon Judea by the Maccabes with the support of the Ptolemeys at that time.

 

The 600 BCE date is from Finkelstein, based on internal evidence from the bible.  Camels, for instance were not used much before then.  And so on.  I do not remember all the details as it has been a couple of years since I read it.  I could be off on the date, but not by millennia. 

The people in Canaan were polytheistic when the bible was written.  I believe Finkelstein mentions that the earliest temple found at the time this book was written was obviously polytheistic.  Father, mother and children gods figurines, no windows, and definitely no gold or jewels or arks or any thing fancy.  It was a few hundred years after the bible was written that the people became monotheistic. 

Finkelstein was not concerned with why the people became monotheistic.  He was busy debunking the OT myths.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


ProzacDeathWish
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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:Gods

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Gods undergo regular extinction events.

Who mourns Adonis?

Up until likely no more than 10,000 years ago all of our ancestors were gods. Do we mourn their passing?

 

 

 I agree, but I was looking forward to the ultimate and final chapter of the whole god making process.  Extinction. 


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cj wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
cj wrote:
...Furry, take a chill pill.  And go read these studies.

http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=600

The people who call themselves "Jewish" are not unique from the other populations in the Middle East.  They are not even genetically the same within the group - Ashkenazi is a different population from Sephardic and so on.  This goes for Noony as well, the Palestinians are indistinguishable from the Jewish population.

Also, Moses did not exist, the Passover didn't happen and neither did the Exodus.  Canaanite peoples were not monotheists until about 600 BCE long after Moses supposedly lived in Egypt.  The word "Jew" is younger than that.  No mention of a Canaanite foster brother for any pharaoh, no evidence the pyramids were built by slaves from any nation (actually archaeological evidence is to the contrary - the builders were very well treated), no sign of thousands of people roaming the desert for any length of time let alone 40 years, no evidence of a global flood, no evidence of an economic downturn in Egypt as one would expect if the populace had suffered many plagues.  And so on and so forth.  Interesting myths, but that is all the OT is.

See The Bible Unearthed by Finkelstein and Silberman and most any recent archaeology text on ancient Egypt.  I say recent as for a long time, archaeologists kept trying to fit data into the bible stories - they have given it up as a bad deal.

There is no evidence the idea of monotheism existed before it was invented by Mohamed.

If you like the 600BC date you are probably thinking of the idea popular in the 1990s that it was brought back when the Jews returned from captivity in Babylon. The captivity thing is also a myth. There is no evidence to support it. It is a discredited idea.

Josephus clearly states the Jews are called that because the came from Judea. Jews only means Judeans.

There is no evidence for the existence of Judea prior to the mid 2nd c. BC. The Yahweh cult was imposed upon Judea by the Maccabes with the support of the Ptolemeys at that time.

The 600 BCE date is from Finkelstein, based on internal evidence from the bible.  Camels, for instance were not used much before then.  And so on.  I do not remember all the details as it has been a couple of years since I read it.  I could be off on the date, but not by millennia. 

The people in Canaan were polytheistic when the bible was written.  I believe Finkelstein mentions that the earliest temple found at the time this book was written was obviously polytheistic.  Father, mother and children gods figurines, no windows, and definitely no gold or jewels or arks or any thing fancy.  It was a few hundred years after the bible was written that the people became monotheistic. 

Finkelstein was not concerned with why the people became monotheistic.  He was busy debunking the OT myths.

I have been over what Finkelstein has to say on the subject and AS YOU NOTE he present ZERO physical evidence for that position. It is all based upon "internal evidence" which is like analyzing the Wizard of Oz, rejecting the magical parts, to determine what Dorothy really did.

Going simply from what you posted there is a mention of an earliest temple and then BANG he reads the bible to say there was a difference.

Perhaps you missed it so let me repeat, there is not a single statement of monotheism in the bible. Even taking it to be sort of as religious tradition would have it, it is the record only of the priests of the Yahweh cult. If we had records of the Ba'al cult we would likely have similar exhortions against the people worshipping Yahweh. It would make no intrinsic difference.

The religion of the priests is not the religion of the people. Among a polytheist people the different priests of the different gods are all going to be trying to get the greatest number of followers and railing against all the other gods and their priests.

Consider the town market where one priest shouts "You are all the chosen people of Yahweh" and another shouts "You are all the chosen people of Ba'al" and a third and fourth and fifth and so on. The constant railing against the people worshiping other gods clearly shows the people were polytheists. The fact that the priests of one god were promoting only their god does not make the people other than polytheists.

Lets imagine a post-apocalyptic future where only the writing of the Baptists survived. They would say the other demoninations were wrong. That the Baptists had only true religion. That the people should stop worshipping at other churches and only in Baptist churches. Sound about right? Who in their right mind would assume that all the people were Baptists but occasionally tempted away to other demoninations?

Yet that is exactly analogous to what is in the bible. There is only one written record that survived -- which I disagree with but which is a different discussion. It says all the other gods are wrong. It says the priests of Yahweh had the only real god of the people. It says the people should stop worshipping at other temples.

Now who in their right mind would conclude that the people were monotheists?

Is it not clear in both cases that the priests are simply promoting their own cult?

The bottom line here is Islam produces a simple, unambiguous, declarative sentence, There is no god but Allah. Show me any other simple declarative sentence saying the same thing prior to Islam. There is no such statement in the bible, old or new testament. I have not found it in any of the dozens of ancient texts I have read. I have asked in other forums for years for some similar statement older than Islam and not a single response.

When one brings an unacknowledged assumption to a subject one is certain to find that assumption confirmed.

 

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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ProzacDeathWish wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
Gods undergo regular extinction events.

Who mourns Adonis?

Up until likely no more than 10,000 years ago all of our ancestors were gods. Do we mourn their passing?

 I agree, but I was looking forward to the ultimate and final chapter of the whole god making process.  Extinction.

Patience is all that is required. Up until three centuries ago, more or less, the gods or The God depending upon your tastes, ruled almost every aspect of this world from pushing planets and the sun and moon around the heavens to disease to lightning to fate. These days believers are desperate to find gaps where they god can still hide and rule.

With every passing day science narrows those gaps. In fact from its status in the good old days of running the entire show, today it is down to tipping the odds in favor of a desired result of a questionable action and being before the Big Bang and that is about it.

We may not be getting rid of the currently popular gods but their "contribution" to daily life continues to shrink towards insignificance. Before Ben Franklin people prayed when the devil sent lightning to destroy churches. After Franklin they installed lightning rods. Prayer lost a big audience in that. In fact it was so oddly significant that I have only found one minister who damned lightning rods because they resulted in a loss of faith in providence. It was a major change but almost no one noticed it.

Do people pray to be saved from malaria or do they drain the swamps? When I was a kid I was literally taught to pray to be saved from polio. Not so much a vaccine wiped out the prayers but that my parents had been taught to pray to be saved from diseases for which I had been vaccinated. Most of our remaining diseases are mainly associated with old age. A child dying of cancer and being killed by a car are newsworthy because most of afflicted are adults and in the case of cancer associated with old age. Who needs a god here unless praying for immortality?

We here are hardly a vanguard. We are the product of our times. I view atheism more as a spectator sport as it is effectively advancing with every scientific and technological advance and nothing is can stop it at this point save an extinction event. My political interest is keeping the American fundies under control. And when confronted even they would have been burned at the stake a few centuries ago for their heretical beliefs.

Evolution is a showcase issue but we are safe from legislating the cause of the weather or crop failure which were well known to be acts of god barely more than a century ago.

What I have discovered is there is a wealth of belief systems unrelated to gods and religion that exist in our western civilization because their adherents have refused to adopt or accept a physical evidence based approach to reality. Science based upon physical evidence has been the ONLY means of progress for the last few centuries after millennia of crap. If you want to watch icons fall and enjoy screaming believers require physical evidence for everything. It is amazing what you will find that is nothing but social myth. It is not limited to religion.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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A_Nony_Mouse

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

FurryCatHerder wrote:
Brian37 wrote:
Quote:
Those are both =facts=.  Not religious myths, not "labels", not "wishful thinking".
ANY claim of a thinking life without an evolutionary process is a MYTH.

If either Palestinian Muslims or Israeli Jews understood they were fighting over fiction, there would be no conflict.

It is NOT a fiction, you ignorant f*ck, that the Jewish people are a =people=.

Go study Genetic Genealogy, then come back and tell me that we're fighting for a "fiction".

I have read the papers on genetics and what I can find of Sforzi on the subject. European Jews are Europeans save for the Cohenim which matches the story about the Khazars importing rabbis to teach the new religion. BTW: It is not discredited. Jews simply started saying it was discredited after research confirmed the matter.

Do you make it a point to just flat out lie?

There are countless studies, all of which support what I wrote, and that includes supporting what I wrote for Jews who are not Kohenim and completely debunking the "Ashkenazi Jews are Khazars" claim.

It's also very important to understand that Kohenim are a very small minority of Jews, being a subset of the tribe of Levi -- only the male offspring of the brother of Moses are Kohenim -- which is only one of 12 total tribes.  If what you claim is true -- that the rabbis are what is showing up, keeping in mind that there is =no= requirement that a rabbi be a Kohen -- there'd be just about no signal at all.  Instead, this is what's found, as an example --

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/10/80/abstract

Quote:

Background

Genetic studies have often produced conflicting results on the question of whether distant Jewish populations in different geographic locations share greater genetic similarity to each other or instead, to nearby non-Jewish populations. We perform a genome-wide population-genetic study of Jewish populations, analyzing 678 autosomal microsatellite loci in 78 individuals from four Jewish groups together with similar data on 321 individuals from 12 non-Jewish Middle Eastern and European populations.

Results

We find that the Jewish populations show a high level of genetic similarity to each other, clustering together in several types of analysis of population structure. Further, Bayesian clustering, neighbor-joining trees, and multidimensional scaling place the Jewish populations as intermediate between the non-Jewish Middle Eastern and European populations.

Conclusion

These results support the view that the Jewish populations largely share a common Middle Eastern ancestry and that over their history they have undergone varying degrees of admixture with non-Jewish populations of European descent.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:What I

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

What I have discovered is there is a wealth of belief systems unrelated to gods and religion that exist in our western civilization because their adherents have refused to adopt or accept a physical evidence based approach to reality. Science based upon physical evidence has been the ONLY means of progress for the last few centuries after millennia of crap. If you want to watch icons fall and enjoy screaming believers require physical evidence for everything. It is amazing what you will find that is nothing but social myth. It is not limited to religion.

Right, how about that physical evidence that Ashkenazi Jews are really Khazari?

Doesn't exist, now does it?

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


Brian37
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Quote:You're right, there is

Quote:
You're right, there is neither Jew nor Gentile in the garden of Eden nor in the Kingdom of God.

If labels don't ultimately matter, as implied here above, then that is further proof that your invisible friend is not a requirement.

Here is what you are saying without realizing it. You are literally mentally taking the good side of human evolution in the real empathy as seeing your fellow human as such, and falsely making it the invention of a mythical super hero.If you are willing to accept your fellow human as such, which is noble, and what humanity DOES need more of, and we are individuals, then you DONT need a tribal myth rooted in an ignorant age to do that.

But if you insist on a super hero with a magic wand, then I DO have a problem with that. You might as well claim the sun is a thinking being and you'd have just as much evidence for such. If you accept that  Muslim can be a decent person then it wouldn't matter if you were Muslim. If you can accept that a Jew is a decent person then there is nothing stopping you from being a Jew. If you can accept that I can be decent as an atheist, then there is nothing stopping you from being an atheist.

Which says to me your personal pet deity is just that, a gap you stuck into natural human behavior which always existed in all of us.

The only difference between the atheist and the Muslim and the Jew and the Christian is that the atheist has one less god belief than the others.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Brian37
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Quote:The hell we

Quote:
The hell we aren't!

THAT is exactly what gives Muslims the excuse to act like dicks.

A few years back I went to a REAL family reunion. THAT WAS MY OWN BLOOD, but other than my direct sister, because I have nothing in common with my father, who was a dick, and my brother who IS a fundy, and the rest of my family whom I was not raised around, unlike you I don't have a stupid fucking blind loyalty to any of them. I still, even with direct family, don't blindly follow them "just because".

"Jew" is the only fucking thing you have in common. Your blood does not give you magical super powers anymore than it gives the dead Muslims your side kills. Their blood is no more magical than yours and wont magically prevent them from dying either.

My biological father was a prick and abandon me. I don't owe him shit just because he is blood. This is why you and Noony are locked in this needless bullshit.

And besides, is that how you want Jews to be viewed, as inbred and always related? That means if you marry a Jewish man you'll be fucking a family member. I don't know about you, but when I went to my family reunion I didn't look for dates.

I am loyal to my adoptive mom, but NOT BLINDLY . But if I found out she robbed a bank or murdered someone in her retirement home, what kind of human would I be to say "gotta protect my mom" just because.

YOU and NOONY if you value peace need to look at individuals and find individuals where ever they exist, that want something different than more of the same. I think both of you act like a married couple that fights all the time and want the police to side with each other when called.

YOUR JEWISHNESS is as fucking tribal as Palestine's bullshit. Both sides think they are a family and are blindly loyal to their family. Same stupid shit different sky friend.

Why is it America doesn't have the religious violence that region does? Because we have a much more secular attitude that does not make loyalty blind. We have a constitution that allows individuals to be individuals and that we CAN and do seek more like minded people outside of labels.

It is why WE have Jews, a Muslim and an atheist serving in OUR congress. Because there is no religious litmus test. You cant do that anymore than Palestine can, which makes both sides fucked as far as I am concerned.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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FurryCatHerder

FurryCatHerder wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

What I have discovered is there is a wealth of belief systems unrelated to gods and religion that exist in our western civilization because their adherents have refused to adopt or accept a physical evidence based approach to reality. Science based upon physical evidence has been the ONLY means of progress for the last few centuries after millennia of crap. If you want to watch icons fall and enjoy screaming believers require physical evidence for everything. It is amazing what you will find that is nothing but social myth. It is not limited to religion.

Right, how about that physical evidence that Ashkenazi Jews are really Khazari?

Doesn't exist, now does it?

I wouldn't give on rats ass if it were true. The magic of blood is a bullshit claim. The tradition of tribalism is bullshit. You look at progress of humans in the west and civil societies where pluralism and dissent is protected, the value is not based on label, but common law. Blind loyalty ESPECIALLY based on religious or political labels without the ability to see individuals as such is what keeps fucking up that region.

You are not special because you are Jewish, your blood is just as red as mine. A dead Jew is the same as a dead Muslim is the same as a dead Hindu is the same as a dead atheist. If both you and Noony understood that and more people in both camps understood that, this bullshit conflict based on tribal myth and bullshit tradition based on litmus tests and blind loyalty, this shit could end very easily.

I AM being harsh on you and noony in hopes to embarrass the fuck out of both of you. I have seen this beef in the fucking news since I was a kid, and being a person who has lived in a society that does not have religious violence and does value pluralism, I am sick of both sides.

YOU ARE BOTH HUMAN BEINGS, your fucking labels don't give you special rights or magic powers. There is no chosen people. There is no "virtue of the oppressed". And neither Jews or Palestinians invented human suffering and neither is entitled to a monopoly as to what suffering is.

SO CUT THE FUCKING BULLSHIT both of you.

Noony, stop being a childish bigiot. Furry stop claiming blood rights or divine rights. If being a dick myself to both of you will get you to get along and see each other as humans first, I do hope damned well I am pissing you off, BOTH OF YOU. Because I am fucking tired of that conflict.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

 

ANY claim of a thinking life without an evolutionary process is a MYTH.

If either Palestinian Muslims or Israeli Jews understood they were fighting over fiction, there would be no conflict.

 

 

Do you believe that in Northern Ireland that the Catholic IRA and the Protestant Loyalists are actually fighting over religious differences ?

If it is not, then why is it called "Catholic/Protestant"? Because no matter how secular each side wands to claim it the politics is ruled by the underlying ignorance that religion wants political protection through favoritism . The solution isn't for politics to play favorites, which causes it. Once you insist on a pecking order, or special "catholic" town were others are mere guests, that favoritism causes the division. Common law can fix that problem. Same ignorance of special pleading and special rights that causes the Israeli/ Palestine conflict.

The claim that it is a secular beef is a dodge in all cases. It still amounts to a group of people asking government for a special top spot in politics. "No religious test' was the best attempt in law language to decrease monopolies of this mindset. The attitude that religion is best protected when government stays neutral on the issue.

Palestine/ Israel is just as much  special pleading for special rights as the conflict in Ireland with Catholic/Protestant.

The respective conflicts have those names because of label and "us vs them". instead of common law which does not play favorites.

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Brian37
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FurryCatHerder wrote:Brian37

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
Those are both =facts=.  Not religious myths, not "labels", not "wishful thinking".

ANY claim of a thinking life without an evolutionary process is a MYTH.

If either Palestinian Muslims or Israeli Jews understood they were fighting over fiction, there would be no conflict.

It is NOT a fiction, you ignorant f*ck, that the Jewish people are a =people=.

Go study Genetic Genealogy, then come back and tell me that we're fighting for a "fiction".

You still don't get it. I don't give one fuck about genes. If my family members are assholes I am going to call them assholes. I America someone can bitch about Bush and someone else can bitch about Obama. I am not loyal to someone merely based on labels, OR BLOOD.

Like I said, my dad was prick, he abandon me. I don't owe him shit merely because he donates his jizz to me.

The only thing I am loyal to is the attitude that humans should be treated as individuals and common law, and since life changes over time, even in that context blind loyalty is bad. You take people as they are, not who they are or what they claim or where they are from.

WHEN both of you fucking learn that, you'll have peace.

Unlike you I don't owe any atheist here a damned thing simply because we are atheists. I owe it to my fellow human to look at them as humans FIRST. Something your blood theory wont let you get past. I don't care if you are basing you loyalty on blood or a god, tribalism is tribalism and the same stupid tribalism Palestine suffers from.

Get the fuck over yourself. You are a HUMAN FIRST. NOONY IS A HUMAN FIRST, I am a HUMAN FIRST, and none of us are special or deserve blind loyalty.

I really do hope I am pissing you off and him too. I want that conflict to end and if making both of you out to be the children fighting over the sandbox needlessly is what it takes, I hope it is working.

BOTTOM LINE, NO ONE IS SPECIAL "JUST BECAUSE". When anyone starts doing that I don't give one fuck who they are, even if they are an atheist, NO YOU ARE NOT.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


A_Nony_Mouse
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FurryCatHerder wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
What I have discovered is there is a wealth of belief systems unrelated to gods and religion that exist in our western civilization because their adherents have refused to adopt or accept a physical evidence based approach to reality. Science based upon physical evidence has been the ONLY means of progress for the last few centuries after millennia of crap. If you want to watch icons fall and enjoy screaming believers require physical evidence for everything. It is amazing what you will find that is nothing but social myth. It is not limited to religion.

Right, how about that physical evidence that Ashkenazi Jews are really Khazari?

Doesn't exist, now does it?

You cited a genetic study which linked the two. Did you not read beyond the abstract?

www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/10/80/abstract

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


Brian37
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A_Nony_Mouse

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

FurryCatHerder wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
What I have discovered is there is a wealth of belief systems unrelated to gods and religion that exist in our western civilization because their adherents have refused to adopt or accept a physical evidence based approach to reality. Science based upon physical evidence has been the ONLY means of progress for the last few centuries after millennia of crap. If you want to watch icons fall and enjoy screaming believers require physical evidence for everything. It is amazing what you will find that is nothing but social myth. It is not limited to religion.

Right, how about that physical evidence that Ashkenazi Jews are really Khazari?

Doesn't exist, now does it?

You cited a genetic study which linked the two. Did you not read beyond the abstract?

www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/10/80/abstract

 

And how is your stupid loyalty any better than hers? If both of you are human then please fucking skip the damned labels.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


FurryCatHerder
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Brian37 wrote:A_Nony_Mouse

Brian37 wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

FurryCatHerder wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
What I have discovered is there is a wealth of belief systems unrelated to gods and religion that exist in our western civilization because their adherents have refused to adopt or accept a physical evidence based approach to reality. Science based upon physical evidence has been the ONLY means of progress for the last few centuries after millennia of crap. If you want to watch icons fall and enjoy screaming believers require physical evidence for everything. It is amazing what you will find that is nothing but social myth. It is not limited to religion.

Right, how about that physical evidence that Ashkenazi Jews are really Khazari?

Doesn't exist, now does it?

You cited a genetic study which linked the two. Did you not read beyond the abstract?

www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/10/80/abstract

And how is your stupid loyalty any better than hers? If both of you are human then please fucking skip the damned labels.

His stupid loyalty is based on bullshit, that's how mine is better than his.

This is the conclusion of that study.  A "conclusion", since Nony doesn't seem to understand what words mean, is the "answer" to the "question".  But here's the conclusion --

Quote:

Conclusion

These results support the view that the Jewish populations largely share a common Middle Eastern ancestry and that over their history they have undergone varying degrees of admixture with non-Jewish populations of European descent.

Not "a little", not "a small minority", not "just those that were the rabbis to the Kahzars".  "Largely".

Nony needs to be ignored and banned.

Period.

That is also a "Conclusion".

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


A_Nony_Mouse
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FurryCatHerder wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
FurryCatHerder wrote:
Brian37 wrote:
Quote:
Those are both =facts=.  Not religious myths, not "labels", not "wishful thinking".
ANY claim of a thinking life without an evolutionary process is a MYTH.

If either Palestinian Muslims or Israeli Jews understood they were fighting over fiction, there would be no conflict.

It is NOT a fiction, you ignorant f*ck, that the Jewish people are a =people=.

Go study Genetic Genealogy, then come back and tell me that we're fighting for a "fiction".

I have read the papers on genetics and what I can find of Sforzi on the subject. European Jews are Europeans save for the Cohenim which matches the story about the Khazars importing rabbis to teach the new religion. BTW: It is not discredited. Jews simply started saying it was discredited after research confirmed the matter.

Do you make it a point to just flat out lie?

There are countless studies, all of which support what I wrote, and that includes supporting what I wrote for Jews who are not Kohenim and completely debunking the "Ashkenazi Jews are Khazars" claim.

This is the real world. Everything can be counted. Even the one you cite supports what I said. You should read beyond the abstract. It should be on a DVD around here some place. Pardon if it takes a while to find. Even though I have 18TB online some things have to migrate offline.

Quote:
It's also very important to understand that Kohenim are a very small minority of Jews, being a subset of the tribe of Levi -- only the male offspring of the brother of Moses are Kohenim -- which is only one of 12 total tribes.

Are you trying to look like an idiot by talking about mythical people or are you really an idiot and believe such nonsense? Please be specific in your answer. Moses is a myth you pathetic idiot believer. Myths do not have brothers you tool. Even your own book says brother in law does it not?

The rational question is where the Y mutation came from. I am guessing on the hinterlands of Macedonia myself as John (Judah) Maccabe is also certainly a Greek. His children have Greek names as does he. The name Hyrcania comes from a minor conquest of Alexander on the northest coast of the Caspian. Of course you are free to explain by a Judean would have the name Hyrcania any time your believer besotted mind is able.

Or are you going to claim your god mutated Aaron's Y chromosome just to leave evidence for us to find? That would be smarter than most rednecks. But then you would have to explain why you believe in miracles and that should embarrass you but you would not realize it. I say that because you just imvoked a miracal in this post.

Quote:
If what you claim is true -- that the rabbis are what is showing up, keeping in mind that there is =no= requirement that a rabbi be a Kohen -- there'd be just about no signal at all.  Instead, this is what's found, as an example --

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/10/80/abstract

Quote:

 

You appear to miss the point from 1,2 Maccabes and from Josephus that priests post Maccabes were of his clan not of the fictitious Levy tribe. Ever heard of the Hasmodeans? They became the priest kings of Judea. They are the rulers when Judea first appears in history in 78 BC. with the arrival of Pompey. They were the only priests. As the entire Mose/Aaron thing is a myth it is unsurprising the priests of the Yahweh cult are Macedonians. After all, what would the simpleton goat herders of Judea know? They were likely just pissed off that their savage rulers started another war with them in the middle.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


A_Nony_Mouse
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Brian37 wrote:

...

Noony, stop being a childish bigiot. Furry stop claiming blood rights or divine rights. If being a dick myself to both of you will get you to get along and see each other as humans first, I do hope damned well I am pissing you off, BOTH OF YOU. Because I am fucking tired of that conflict.

Stop pretending anyone gives a rat's ass what  you post.

You are not a moderator. You are not in charge.

Drop the annoying attitude.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


FurryCatHerder
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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:You

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

You appear to miss the point from 1,2 Maccabes and from Josephus that priests post Maccabes were of his clan not of the fictitious Levy tribe. Ever heard of the Hasmodeans? They became the priest kings of Judea. They are the rulers when Judea first appears in history in 78 BC. with the arrival of Pompey. They were the only priests. As the entire Mose/Aaron thing is a myth it is unsurprising the priests of the Yahweh cult are Macedonians. After all, what would the simpleton goat herders of Judea know? They were likely just pissed off that their savage rulers started another war with them in the middle.

You =are= an idiot.

Kings are from the TRIBE of Judah, priests are from the TRIBE of Levi.  Tribal membership is purely patrilineal -- the sons of Judah are in that tribe and can't magically become sons of Levi and vice versa.  And if you aren't in a tribe, you're just a generic Jew.

Besides being a bigot, you're an idiot.  You are, beyond a shadow of a  doubt, one of the least well educated, and most grossly misinformed of all the posters here, bar none.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."