Returning Again

Vitus
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Returning Again

 Hello,

 

I got a newsletter from RRS about a month ago; it reminded me that I'd joined this online community a while back but never really participated because of my studies. I thought I'd give it another shot. (I'm sure the admins will be happy to know that email notices do work!)

 

My name is Vito. I am a Franciscan friar attending school for computer science and philosophy. In a few years, I plan enroll in the Catholic Theological Union here in Chicago as well as the Web Development Master's program at DePaul. With some luck, I'll attend the STS program at Virginia Tech at some point.

 

I will lurk here and there for a bit. If there's a specific question you have or a post that you want me to respond to, feel free to email me. vito@digitalfriar.com

[Note: I'd say to PM me, but apparently one needs to buy a membership, and I saw a post saying "Theist money is no good here!" so email works for now. ]

 

Peace,

-Vito


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Well since you are a friar

Well since you are a friar and into philosophy I promise I wont call you a deep friar.(Did I think that, or type it?)

In any case welcome. You say you have been here before. So you should be aware of how brutal we can be to your claims, YOUR CLAIMS, not you personally.

My mom gageeeated from VT.  I am actually a UVA fan because Jefferson started that college . He also equated the virgin birth to Minerva being born out of the brain of Jupiter. So when VT plays UVA my mom and I go "Nanny nanny boo boo" to each other.

Welcome to the boxing ring. To most of us here it is "love the claimant, not the claim".  LETS GET READY TO MUMBLE!

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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And the other thing,

And the other thing, inviting us to e-mail you makes it look like you are trying to pick off a calf in a herd like a lion. I'd say that if your arguments for your position are as strong as you'd like to believe, you should have no problem debating right here where everyone can see your arguments.

No one here will hate you personally for holding claims we don't find credible. But it kinda makes it look like you have something to hide by only wanting to do it through e-mail.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Vitus
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I didn't know that an

I didn't know that an introduction could be so contentious!

 

I understand that email discussions undermine the function of an open forum and was not implying that my discussions should take place there. If anything, my work and my life keep me extremely busy and, having not developed a habit of regularly checking this website, could easily forget about the site again! My hope would be that if anyone contacted me to discuss a topic, it would be an invitation to discuss my view here. 

I do find the metaphor of "calfs" and "lions" to be interesting. I would venture to guess that a rationalist would not feel the need for protection within a herd, and that a "herd mentality" is better left to followers of religion (e.g. "We are God's people, the flock of the Lord." ). To the contrary, my assumption is that a rationalist could easily stand their ground in a one-to-one discourse. Perhaps I'm the calf walking into the lions' den.

I would simply ask that you not make assumptions based on my affiliation as a theist...a position I offer in return. I'm not here to "convert" or "save" people, or condemn anyone. Nor am I here out of some Messianic or self-martydom complex that, by being scorned for my beliefs, I'm somehow gaining favor with God. Nor am I necessarily here to prove that I am right and you (or anyone here) is wrong. If your welcome is genuine (and I believe it is!) then I hope that my words and my presence here are judged on their own merit and not exclusively through the lens of other theists that have chosen to participate in this online forum. I will do my best to extend the same to others.

That being said, I thank you for the welcome and look forward to participating as time permits.

Peace,

-Vito

 


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Vitus wrote:I didn't know

Vitus wrote:

I didn't know that an introduction could be so contentious!

 

                     Contentiousness depends entirely upon the individual you are dealing with.  Atheists....like theists....manifest widely differing personalities.

 

 

 

Vitus wrote:
I would simply ask that you not make assumptions based on my affiliation as a theist...

 

     

                  That problem of incorrect assumptions is as easily solved as you laying out your specific beliefs.   Sorting through the vast array of differing theistic beliefs just among the Christian community can be a labor intensive activity.    You can save us all the effort by simply laying your doctrinal cards on the table.   We can proceed from there.

 

     PS welcome to the forum.

"Most people are ass holes." Jesus of Nazareth


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Why Virginia Tech?  Isn't

Why Virginia Tech?  Isn't that where people keep shooting at each other?  I'm probably wrong, being a westerner all my life, and I have it confused with some other eastern university.

Any way, welcome, post early and often.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

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Quote:I do find the metaphor

Quote:
I do find the metaphor of "calfs" and "lions" to be interesting. I would venture to guess that a rationalist would not feel the need for protection within a herd,

We already have a one on one option category here, So the e-mail invite says to me the person offering it, AND I have seen this a few times before, that the person offering the debate in hiding has that, something to hide.

In other words anything you would want to debate with us in private you should have no problem debating in the open.

You view us as lost puppies, "calves" which we are not.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Quote:I'm not here to

Quote:
I'm not here to "convert" or "save" people

Unlike you I wont lie to you or myself. I AM here to convince you that what you believe is bologna.

For you to say that is not what you are here for is bull. Especially when you invite people to e-mail you.

You came here to sell something. Don't lie about that. I don't care that is what you are here for. Go for it, try to sell it. I am here for the same thing.

You, "God exists"

Me, "No he doesn't"

That is where we are at. Trying to pretend that is not what you are here for is absurd.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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 This site is a haven for

 This site is a haven for those who are pushing back against the norm, and a place for believers of gods to have their beliefs exposed as false should they want to try their hand at confronting us. 

Your responses are completely in line with the web site's mission statement (for lack of a better term.) It automatically assumes that I am here to convince, coerce, or condemn people. And I'm sure that response comes from previous experiences of people who've done just that...be it online or in real life. 

You are correct, my presence here is an affirmation of something that you and others on this site disagree with. Because of that, I have to be extra careful of what I type, knowing full well that anything I say will be heavily scrutinized. If my purpose here was simply to make myself feel better as a religious, then I am showing no respect to you or anyone here. I'd simply be using you for selfish means. Rather, I am hoping to enter into a dialogue or discourse (a lofty goal for the Web, I know!) and to do that, I have to build a level of respect. 

If you feel my email address somehow shows an ill intent on my part, I will remove it. 

As for what I'm selling, you'll have to wait and see. If my presence here is perceived as adversarial, then I will "play my cards" closely and carefully.

 

-Vito

 

[I am apparently not able to edit my initial post. I imagine a board admin or mod would need to do the removal. My apologies. -V] 


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Stop it. Stop pretending you

Stop it. Stop pretending you are here for anything less than trying to "help" us.

We ARE here to help you snap out of your delusion. We don't pretend that that is not what we are doing here.

Mainly this site is here for atheists. But when you came here what did you think we would try to do, sell you Girl Scout Cookies?

The bottom line is that you wish everyone bought your god. The bottom line is that we wish people would realize they don't need any god to live life. Stop trying to pretend that is not what is going on here.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Quote:As for what I'm

Quote:
As for what I'm selling, you'll have to wait and see

Unless you are flat out lying to me, I would assume it is the Jesus character of the bible.

 

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                                                                                          Geez, Brian let the guy have a little breathing room.  

"Most people are ass holes." Jesus of Nazareth


Vitus
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Brian37 wrote:You, "God

Brian37 wrote:

You, "God exists"

Me, "No he doesn't"

 

I agree with that assumption.

Brian37 wrote:

We ARE here to help you snap out of your delusion.

Initially, I see two interesting points:

1. The discussion, does God (in whatever manifestation one chooses to name or identify) exist or not, abruptly ends there. I think it's safe to assume any positivist or rationalist would consider further discussion on the subject to be unscientific and, without empirical evidence, to possibly be a waste of time. It's only when someone chooses to push the issue, e.g., "God exists and I'll prove why!" that the discussion continues. My choice to be here was not to add more fodder to a hopeless discussion that I'm not interested in carrying on. I'm sure there are plenty of people eager to sell salvation...my a priori is that you (and probably the other atheists here, too) are tired of hearing that.

 

2. Whether or not I'm here to "help" is a rash judgement. The reasons that I joined this site years ago are different than why I chose to see the RRS Newsletter as an opportunity for discussion. Atheism is not the only topic here. I spent time reading posts, articles, and even some papers that have been written about how people chose to define how they think as rationalists, empiricists, etc. There are people with very interesting ideas here, and people with experiences about religion that need to be heard. For example, my best friend bemoans the offensive and invasive actions of some theists who, for "his own good," attempt to "save" him. Will listening to things like that help? I have no clue.

If, in your mind, I cannot have a motive that does not involve me forcing or trying to convince you of something you have already decided not to believe in, then so be it. Personally, I'd see that as meaningless dialogue and a waste both our times.

Peace,

-Vito

 

 

 


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Currently, VT has the best

Currently, VT has the best Science and Technology Studies program in the country, on the post-graduate and the doctrinal level. Of course, getting in and wanting to go there are two different things...and I have other degrees to finish before that.

 

 

 

 


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Hi Vitus. Theists are Welcome.

Hi Vitus,

Welcome.

I dont think including your email makes it look as though you're trying some devious plan on those unsuspecting, innocent, naive atheists so you can take 'em out one by one.

But that lack of paranoia about your motives is because I'm a rational-minded, clear thinker who doesnt jump to conclusions.

 

 


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Vitus wrote:Currently, VT

Vitus wrote:

Currently, VT has the best Science and Technology Studies program in the country, on the post-graduate and the doctrinal level. Of course, getting in and wanting to go there are two different things...and I have other degrees to finish before that.

 

Ah.  I turn 61 in just one more week, and I'm attending Portland State University.  It is in downtown Portland, OR.  I have a BS in Systems Engineering and I think I can scrape out a Master's or Doctorate in what they call Interdisciplinary Studies.  Which means I get to come up with something on my own.  I haven't a clue as to what I'm going to do with said degree, but I'll think of something.

Best wishes on your studies.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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ProzacDeathWish wrote:   

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

                                     

 

 

                                                                                          Geez, Brian let the guy have a little breathing room.  

I'm fine dude. I just don't really like it when someone comes here and tries to say they are not selling something when they really are trying to sell something.

It fine that he is here and if he wants to try to sell us his product, he is more than welcome to try.

I am sure he is a big boy and can defend himself. I'd like to think he can handle it. I wont hate him personally just as I am sure he doesn't hate me personally. Lets just not lie about what is going on here.

He wants us to come to a god belief, and we hold the position that a god is not needed to live life or explain life. That is ultimately what we are debating here. He should not shy away from his position if that is what he believes, and I most certainly will not shy away from mine.

 

 

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Lion IRC wrote:Hi

Lion IRC wrote:

Hi Vitus,

Welcome.

I dont think including your email makes it look as though you're trying some devious plan on those unsuspecting, innocent, naive atheists so you can take 'em out one by one.

But that lack of paranoia about your motives is because I'm a rational-minded, clear thinker who doesnt jump to conclusions.

 

 

Your other posts stand against this claim.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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There's a chance he's just a

There's a chance he's just a guy with questions. Sticking out tongue

Welcome!

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Quote:Whether or not I'm

Quote:
Whether or not I'm here to "help" is a rash judgement.

No it is not. If you didn't think Jesus was medicine for humanity you wouldn't be here.

I don't care that you are trying to sell us your deity. Just don't pretend that is not what you are doing.

That is just as irritating as getting a phone call that starts with "This is not a sales call" and then the person goes into a sales pitch.

Now, here is how it goes.

You, "I believe that Jesus is the son of the one true god and here is why"

That is what you do.

Then I respond with

"No, there is no such thing as a god, and here is why"

Simple enough I think.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Vastet wrote:There's a

Vastet wrote:
There's a chance he's just a guy with questions. Sticking out tongue Welcome!

Vaset, I wish that were merely the case, but they have a deity they think will cure all human problems. They have something to sell ultimately.

I've seen this "It's not what you think" far too many times to know it is merely a facade.

I like it much better when people are simply up front about what they are trying to do.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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Welcome to the forum.  I

Welcome to the forum.  I always welcome an educated theistic view.  I find I always learn most when discussing/debating someone that has the ability to introspectively scrutinize rationale, be that person theist or otherwise.  Smiling

I look forward to reading some of your posts.  

@Brian, we should have a welcome committee on this site, you should head that said committee and change your sig to "if your opinion differs from mine, get the F out!"

 

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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Ktulu wrote:Welcome to the

Ktulu wrote:

Welcome to the forum.  I always welcome an educated theistic view.  I find I always learn most when discussing/debating someone that has the ability to introspectively scrutinize rationale, be that person theist or otherwise.  Smiling

I look forward to reading some of your posts.  

@Brian, we should have a welcome committee on this site, you should head that said committee and change your sig to "if your opinion differs from mine, get the F out!"

 

If I wanted to say "get the F out" then that is what I would say. All I was telling him was to not beat around the bush. I like being direct with people.

If others here want to take the scenic route with him, they most certainly can. There is no right or wrong way to approach debate.

Not trying to spoil the end of the story, or take away people's thunder here. I am just doing my thing. You can do what you wish with him as well. If anything it shows theists that we are individuals and not clones of each other.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Ktulu wrote:Welcome to the

Ktulu wrote:

Welcome to the forum.  I always welcome an educated theistic view.  I find I always learn most when discussing/debating someone that has the ability to introspectively scrutinize rationale, be that person theist or otherwise.  Smiling

I look forward to reading some of your posts.  

@Brian, we should have a welcome committee on this site, you should head that said committee and change your sig to "if your opinion differs from mine, get the F out!"

 

Quote:
It's fine that he is here and if he wants to try to sell us his product, he is more than welcome to try.

Does that sound like "Get the f out"?

All I asked him to do is not lie about what he is doing.

When you go to a business, one of the things the employees are taught is "up selling". You go up to the counter and they suggest something else to go along with what you are buying. Most people don't notice this and often sometimes mistake it as trying to be helpful, and I am sure that is his intent here, but it doesn't change that he has a position that he wishes, at a minimum others would hold.

I want him here and I want to debate him. That is hardly "get the f out".

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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Lion IRC wrote:Hi

Lion IRC wrote:

Hi Vitus,

Welcome.

I dont think including your email makes it look as though you're trying some devious plan on those unsuspecting, innocent, naive atheists so you can take 'em out one by one.

But that lack of paranoia about your motives is because I'm a rational-minded, clear thinker who doesnt jump to conclusions.

 

I am not accusing him of being "devious". I am saying he should not be trying to fool himself as to what he is doing here. Just be straight forward about it.

Pulling someone to the side is the same tactic theists use when trying to "help" a drug attack or homeless person. Offer them a sandwich or a jacket and then pop on them "I helped you so therefore my god is real".

People who believe have the "good intent" of wanting to help others. But more and more people know they cant sell it directly so they try to slip it in the back door without realizing it.

A good example of this is the "Christian Children's Fund". They no longer call it that because it doesn't sell well any more so they now simply call it  "Children's Fund".

Just trying to keep things out in the open where they belong.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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Welcome, Shaman...

Quote:
The profession of shaman has many advantages. It offers high status with a safe livelihood free of work in the dreary, sweaty sense. In most societies it offers legal privileges and immunities not granted to other men. But it is hard to see how a man who has been given a mandate from on High to spread tidings of joy to all mankind can be seriously interested in taking up a collection to pay his salary; it causes one to suspect that the shaman is on the moral level of any other con man. But it is a lovely work if you can stomach it. [Lazarus Long, _Time enough for Love_, by Robert Heinlein]

 

I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, within reason...

LC >;-}>



 

Christianity: A disgusting middle eastern blood cult, based in human sacrifice, with sacraments of cannibalism and vampirism, whose highest icon is of a near naked man hanging in torment from a device of torture.


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Quote:If, in your mind, I

Quote:
If, in your mind, I cannot have a motive that does not involve me forcing or trying to convince you of something you have already decided not to believe in, then so be it. Personally, I'd see that as meaningless dialogue and a waste

No one here is accusing you of putting a gun to our heads, so there is no accusation of "force" on my part.

I did not simply "decide" to not believe. It took me 10 years of deliberate thought and scrutiny and was a slow transition.

All I am saying to you is don't dance around your position.

You are in the "on" position, and think that the "on" position is a better position to hold.

I am in the "off" position and think that the "off" position is the better position to hold.

You, "Jesus exists and is the one true god and here is why I hold that position"

Me, "No, all gods are made up and here is why I hold that position"

No force on my part and I don't think you are trying to force anything down my throat either. Short and sweet, and direct, that's all I am saying.

Nothing to be afraid of. I wont barbecue your kittens. I simply wont adapt your position if I cant find anything credible to sink my teeth into.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Brian37 wrote:Vastet

Brian37 wrote:

Vastet wrote:
There's a chance he's just a guy with questions. Sticking out tongue Welcome!

Vaset, I wish that were merely the case, but they have a deity they think will cure all human problems. They have something to sell ultimately.

I've seen this "It's not what you think" far too many times to know it is merely a facade.

I like it much better when people are simply up front about what they are trying to do.

 

Assuming it's a facade, is he aware of the facade? Most theists, in my experience, are ignorant of the effects their claims can have. Remember they have been trained to proselytise(sp) sub or unconsciously, and aren't necessarily aware of doing it.

That said, I've always been a proponent of challenging theism in every conceivable way, to each their own. So don't let me stop you. I'll be the good cop. Sticking out tongue

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Vastet wrote:Brian37

Vastet wrote:
Brian37 wrote:

Vastet wrote:
There's a chance he's just a guy with questions. Sticking out tongue Welcome!

Vaset, I wish that were merely the case, but they have a deity they think will cure all human problems. They have something to sell ultimately.

I've seen this "It's not what you think" far too many times to know it is merely a facade.

I like it much better when people are simply up front about what they are trying to do.

 

Assuming it's a facade, is he aware of the facade? Most theists, in my experience, are ignorant of the effects their claims can have. Remember they have been trained to proselytise(sp) sub or unconsciously, and aren't necessarily aware of doing it. That said, I've always been a proponent of challenging theism in every conceivable way, to each their own. So don't let me stop you. I'll be the good cop. :P

Do you feel irrational, well do you punk? Go ahead, make a fallacy.(Bad cop here.)(Note to self: Did I think that, or type it)

Thanks Vaset, you get me. And thats really all it amounts to. Believers really have nothing to fear from me or the way I debate. I am a puddy tat really. It's just that I like a direct approach and hate sugar coating my position.

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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Outside the bubble...

Vastet wrote:
Brian37 wrote:

Vastet wrote:
There's a chance he's just a guy with questions. Sticking out tongue Welcome!

Vaset, I wish that were merely the case, but they have a deity they think will cure all human problems. They have something to sell ultimately.

I've seen this "It's not what you think" far too many times to know it is merely a facade.

I like it much better when people are simply up front about what they are trying to do.

 

Assuming it's a facade, is he aware of the facade? Most theists, in my experience, are ignorant of the effects their claims can have. Remember they have been trained to proselytise(sp) sub or unconsciously, and aren't necessarily aware of doing it. That said, I've always been a proponent of challenging theism in every conceivable way, to each their own. So don't let me stop you. I'll be the good cop. :P

I have found over the years that most theists operate in a little safe, secure bubble, in which most of the people with which they have dealings at least tacitly agree with their basic premise. Atheists tend to burst the bubble.
For myself, I refuse to allow them comfort, I refuse to allow any assertion or premise to remain unchallenged.

For instance, how many Atheists have you heard say "Well, yeah, Jesus was  nice Guy and all..."
No, he wasn't. At best, the character depicted was a lunatic, a seriously deluded little man. If we are to take it all as written, then he was a bigot, a racist with violent tendencies. A thief, or at least indifferent to property rights. In all, not a 'good' person at all.
Yet too often, 'we' let them slide on this basic point...

End Rant:

 

LC >;-}>

Christianity: A disgusting middle eastern blood cult, based in human sacrifice, with sacraments of cannibalism and vampirism, whose highest icon is of a near naked man hanging in torment from a device of torture.


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Louis_Cypher wrote:Vastet

Louis_Cypher wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Brian37 wrote:

Vastet wrote:
There's a chance he's just a guy with questions. Sticking out tongue Welcome!

Vaset, I wish that were merely the case, but they have a deity they think will cure all human problems. They have something to sell ultimately.

I've seen this "It's not what you think" far too many times to know it is merely a facade.

I like it much better when people are simply up front about what they are trying to do.

 

Assuming it's a facade, is he aware of the facade? Most theists, in my experience, are ignorant of the effects their claims can have. Remember they have been trained to proselytise(sp) sub or unconsciously, and aren't necessarily aware of doing it. That said, I've always been a proponent of challenging theism in every conceivable way, to each their own. So don't let me stop you. I'll be the good cop. :P

I have found over the years that most theists operate in a little safe, secure bubble, in which most of the people with which they have dealings at least tacitly agree with their basic premise. Atheists tend to burst the bubble.
For myself, I refuse to allow them comfort, I refuse to allow any assertion or premise to remain unchallenged.

For instance, how many Atheists have you heard say "Well, yeah, Jesus was  nice Guy and all..."
No, he wasn't. At best, the character depicted was a lunatic, a seriously deluded little man. If we are to take it all as written, then he was a bigot, a racist with violent tendencies. A thief, or at least indifferent to property rights. In all, not a 'good' person at all.
Yet too often, 'we' let them slide on this basic point...

End Rant:

 

LC >;-}>

All the progress of humanity has in common was because people prior refused to "respect" a social norm.

I really hate the word "respect". I like the word "value" much better. "Respect" as it is popularly abused is merely a way of saying "don't pick on my claim". Claims do not deserve respect. Claims can only be and should only be valued when they are proven. This is still a separate issue than a human rights government protection of dissent issue.

I am glad Galileo VALUED the truth enough to not "respect" the social norm of his time.

And as far as the Jesus Character, I look at it this way. There are moral motifs people can cherry pick out of that book, just like you can find motifs like "loyalty" and "kindness" in Harry Potter and Star Wars. But the entire idea of taking away a person''s autonomy is what the entire God character and Jesus character is all about. It takes the self away and sets up arbitrary rules that are not by consent and all for what? Am unprovable utopia after death which the only goal is to kiss the ass of one being.

And the bottom line is that even if everyone here suddenly agreed that a person named Jesus existed, it still would not make magic babies or zombie god claims of surviving rigor mortis a  scientific possibility.

The entire bible is a perfect manual for a mafia boss.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Welcome Vito.  I have never

Welcome Vito.  I have never conversed with a Friar before I don't believe.

Which Order of Franciscans do you come from?

Keep your distance from Brian37.  He's rabid.

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


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Watcher wrote:Welcome

Watcher wrote:

Welcome Vito.  I have never conversed with a Friar before I don't believe.

Which Order of Franciscans do you come from?

Keep your distance from Brian37.  He's rabid.

Yea, like Luis Black, or Mel Brooks or the South Park creators are rabid.

Not sugar coating a position does not make me rabid. "Rabid" Is Kim Jong Ill, "Rabid" are the Imams who control Iran, "Rabid" was the politics that Stalin used. "That is bullshit" doesn't make me "rabid", it just means I wont sugar coat it.

You probably meant that as a joke, but just saying. I really am a puddy tat. I just pull my hair out when I hear things I find absurd.

"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible proposition"Thomas Jefferson. I guess he was "rabid" too.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Louis_Cypher wrote:I have

Louis_Cypher wrote:
I have found over the years that most theists operate in a little safe, secure bubble,
~
In all, not a 'good' person at all.Yet too often, 'we' let them slide on this basic point...

While in general I agree with you, sometimes when you pop the bubble the theist runs away to church to reinflate it and never return. So I tend to take a more psychological view, interspersed with strategy. I analyse a person based on their words and intuitively choose a tactic I feel is most likely to succeed in permanently dissolving the bubble. Sometimes that tactic is being friendly.

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Vastet wrote:Louis_Cypher

Vastet wrote:
Louis_Cypher wrote:
I have found over the years that most theists operate in a little safe, secure bubble, ~ In all, not a 'good' person at all.Yet too often, 'we' let them slide on this basic point...
While in general I agree with you, sometimes when you pop the bubble the theist runs away to church to reinflate it and never return. So I tend to take a more psychological view, interspersed with strategy. I analyse a person based on their words and intuitively choose a tactic I feel is most likely to succeed in permanently dissolving the bubble. Sometimes that tactic is being friendly.

If they do run away, that is one less person trying to peddle their superstition in public. Plus i don't want someone jumping in the ring who cannot handle it. If you are that sensitive don't do it. But if you chose to jump in the ring you cant really complain because you knew what you were getting into.

And especially with ANYONE "studying" to be a person of the cloth, it is easy to preach to the choir, it is much harder to play the game on the away field. How can you test your argument if you are simply selling it?

I admire Caposkia and Furry because they are not afraid of the debate. They both know I hate what they claim. But they know that it is nothing personal. 

However, I cant stand, for example, Joel Ostein(sp) with is pre packaged angelic smug condescending smile who wont take anyone on in a debate. Pat Robertson is even worse because he does what Faux News does in setting up straw men pretending to "challenge" and look tough.

I hate it more when people preach in public but don't want their claims challenged. I also hate it as much when people go to sites they dont own and then make demands on turf that is not theirs.

I do think there ARE lots of theists who can handle the fray and do like the battle. I don't think we should treat every theist like they are thin skinned.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Vastet wrote:Louis_Cypher

Vastet wrote:
Louis_Cypher wrote:
I have found over the years that most theists operate in a little safe, secure bubble, ~ In all, not a 'good' person at all.Yet too often, 'we' let them slide on this basic point...
While in general I agree with you, sometimes when you pop the bubble the theist runs away to church to reinflate it and never return. So I tend to take a more psychological view, interspersed with strategy. I analyse a person based on their words and intuitively choose a tactic I feel is most likely to succeed in permanently dissolving the bubble. Sometimes that tactic is being friendly.

"Sometimes" is the key word. Nothing can be used as a blanket cure as an absolute. I used to confuse the ignorant bullying of the kids on my street and in high school, with my mother's "Damn it Brian, knock it off, you're being stupid". If I had not been so damned sensitive I would have understood, SOMETIMES, she really was just trying to snap me out of my ridiculous behavior.

It takes a combo of good cop and bad cop. I don't make a good cop. But we do need good cops. I like the boxing ring and by proxy that Caposkia and Furry are still here says there ARE theists who can handle the "bad cop".

There is no one way to go about this and neither approach is always good or always bad.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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I don't for a second believe

I don't for a second believe a theist who ran away will stop peddling theism, they'll just change the location. So some poor gaming or tech forum will be saddled with him/her instead of us. Sad

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.