I want to believe in God, but it doesn't work?

SarcasticIndeed
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I want to believe in God, but it doesn't work?

Hello, I'm new and all, and I consider myself an Agnostic Atheist, but I've always wanted to be a theist.

 

I was born in an Orthodox Christian family, but we weren't especially religious. Still, I went to church for a period of my childhood very often, and considered myself as a Christian. However, as time passed, from my 8-10th year, or even earlier, I began to doubt things. I started asking "Does this make sense?" and "Could that really happen?" My mind always rejected religion as someting irrational.

At the time, I watched the Discovery, History and NG chanells which didn't help my theistic side to prevail over the atheistic. It talked about how everything in the bible would be explained with science, the contradictions, false beliefs etc. etc. The last one I saw said how, based on the evidence, Izrael people didn't attack the land (I forgot its name) like the bible says, but they lived there as peasants, and then probably built a new identity. They passed through a town which has a very similar name to the God in bible and probably got their belief from it.  At that point, I would still answer I'm a theist when someone asked me, but deep inside, I knew it wasn't true. I guess I was just scared of hell or something.

One day, I just realized that this "hiding from the truth" cannot continue. If God exists, he knows I don't believe in him and this false Christianity makes little to no sense to me. From that point on, I considered myself an atheist.

Life of an atheist (which I added the tag of "nihilist" later) was okay. I thought everything was created in the Big Bang, evolution happened and we appeared; there is no purpose to our existence and there is no morale. I felt I was free. I immediately joined the Religion discussion on Yahoo! Answers on the side of a sarcastic atheists. And I felt good, but then again, I didn't really like it. I don't want just to "perish from existence" when I die. I want someone to be up there, this world would be better then! I don't want to rot in heaven.

In this "search" for God, I met quite a few people. None would make me believe in God. One of them was incredibly smart, and I liked what he told me, but I still didn't become an atheist.


Vastet
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Welcome. I must admit your

Welcome. I must admit your tale is unique in my experience. Every time I ever wanted god to be real was shortlived, as all the consequences crashed down on me.
I found it better to come up with my own purpose and morality than to buy into someone elses beliefs. And I've been much happier since doing so. It's been a very long time since I desired to believe in a god, even for a moment. So long I can't remember.

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I understand what you mean.

I understand what you mean. However, I really found no way to come up with a purpose on my own or anything similar. Creating my version of "religion" wouldn't make much sense to me, since I can't create a deity out of thin air, and in the atheistic world, I go with the nihilist beliefs. However, I want to go back to the Christian God, since, well, it's my original religion. I just don't know. My mind is a mess when it comes to this. I just wan't to believe, but I can't. It's really frustrating.


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I decided the best thing I

I decided the best thing I can do is enjoy myself as much as possible, and do my best to leave a good impression on those I care about. To fight inequality and injustice by whatever means possible or necessary. And to learn as much as I can about this universe we dwell in.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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SarcasticIndeed wrote:I

SarcasticIndeed wrote:

I understand what you mean. However, I really found no way to come up with a purpose on my own or anything similar. Creating my version of "religion" wouldn't make much sense to me, since I can't create a deity out of thin air, and in the atheistic world, I go with the nihilist beliefs. However, I want to go back to the Christian God, since, well, it's my original religion. I just don't know. My mind is a mess when it comes to this. I just wan't to believe, but I can't. It's really frustrating.

It is not a mess. You are needlessly making it a mess because of your emotions. If you really are having sudden mood shifts between the two, it may be a psychological issue needing to be addressed by a trained professional (not a priest) but a clinical psychologist.

The myths of the God/s of Abraham are old stories written in an unscientific age. You are simply trying to fill a void in something personal in your life. I think it may simply amount to feeling you are "something" or "part of something".

You can only be you. You cannot be what others tell you. And all the atheists here can tell you they don't have your swings. Most here were believers, some were lucky enough to never have been indoctrinated into theism.

Having a hard time finding yourself happens in life. Some people never figure out what they want to do. But that does not mean a myth will fix any gap of meaning you may have. Only you can determine that.

I am dirt poor. I don't know if I will ever find out what it is I want to do. But I do the best I can and I enjoy what I do, and I still help others and still find meaning. This right here to me, making this post, and talking to other atheists is my therapy. And if I can help someone shed their delusion, that too gives me happiness and meaning.

Meaning is what you give it. It isn't in a job title. It isn't in a paycheck. It isn't in being part of a group just to fit in. Life is not a script.

You don't need an ancient myth to live your life. You just need to be you and accept yourself as you are and find happiness in what you want.

I find happiness in making people laugh every day when I can. I find happiness in giving my co-workers rides to work or to the doctor. I find happiness spending time with my mom. I find happiness in posting here. I find happiness having my cat. I find happiness yelling at my TV when my Redskins suck. I find happiness when I talk to my best friend Bob Spense who posts here too.

Happiness is a state of mind it is not something someone buys you or a job title, or fame. Happiness can only be what you make it.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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Welcome to The Rational

Welcome to The Rational Response Squad.

SarcasticIndeed wrote:
And I felt good, but then again, I didn't really like it. I don't want just to "perish from existence" when I die. I want someone to be up there, this world would be better then! I don't want to rot in heaven.

Yay.

I still feel this way to an extent.  

I want there to be a god, as in, it would be great if there was some sentient being who was really nice and intelligent and was powerful enough to help people and stuff. Someone........someone like me, lol, although I'm not really 100% confident that I wouldn't be corrupted if I had that much power. However, I am simply too well informed and skeptical now to ever change my belief system unless I was actually presented with convincing evidence. The bottom line is - I want an endless supply of free Coldstone Creamery ice cream to be available next to my bed, but that doesn't mean it'll actually be there when I wake up in the morning.

In my opinion, if you still sort of want to be a theist, don't be afraid to play around with it. Go to church. Listen to religious music. Whatever you want, as long as you remember why you're here; what you really want to believe in, more than anything else, is reality.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


cj
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I don't know

I tried to believe a couple of times in my life.  And I just can't.  There just isn't any evidence of a loving god/s/dess hanging out with humans. 

So that means we have to do it on our own.  We have to be nice to each other because we live with each other.  We have our own purposes and reasons for getting up in the morning and doing what is necessary.

I don't understand the morality questions people have.  I have been in an adult bible study class and in a university ethics class.  And I can tell you no one agrees with anyone else 100% - not even the christian types who were all attending the same church could agree on something as simple as what it means to "rest on Sunday".  Given that all of us had jobs, children, hobbies, housework and yard work, that wasn't going to wait around for Monday.

I don't understand the "purpose" question, either.  After all, just who gets tweets from god/s/dess a couple of times a day, informing and instructing on said purpose?  Just how does any of those theist types "know" what purpose that collection of deities has in mind?  We find a reason to get up in the morning and put one foot in front of the other.  Doesn't matter what the reason is - mine is as simple as I can make it because I don't want to paint myself in a corner with promises I can't keep.  So I try to make my corner of the world a little better.  Some days, I have problems meeting even that simple goal.

You might look at:

http://www.amazon.com/Reasons-People-Give-Believing-God/dp/1591025672/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1324010309&sr=8-1

50 Reasons People Give for Believing in a God by Guy P. Harrison was also available at my local library.  So you can look at and read it for free. 

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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Brian37 wrote:It is not a

Brian37 wrote:

It is not a mess. You are needlessly making it a mess because of your emotions. If you really are having sudden mood shifts between the two, it may be a psychological issue needing to be addressed by a trained professional (not a priest) but a clinical psychologist.

Perhaps you are right. I don't know, but I can have these swings. I just don't tend to show them on the outside. If this continues, I'll try to visit a psychologist.

Brian37 wrote:

The myths of the God/s of Abraham are old stories written in an unscientific age. You are simply trying to fill a void in something personal in your life. I think it may simply amount to feeling you are "something" or "part of something".

Well, I can't say that is not true. I do want to feel like a part of something or really feel I am something

Brian37 wrote:

You can only be you. You cannot be what others tell you. And all the atheists here can tell you they don't have your swings. Most here were believers, some were lucky enough to never have been indoctrinated into theism.

Having a hard time finding yourself happens in life. Some people never figure out what they want to do. But that does not mean a myth will fix any gap of meaning you may have. Only you can determine that.

Again, you are right, I have nothing to say against that. And... thank you.

cj wrote:

I tried to believe a couple of times in my life.  And I just can't.  There just isn't any evidence of a loving god/s/dess hanging out with humans. 

Exactly my thoughts. There just isn't any evidence...

cj wrote:

So that means we have to do it on our own.  We have to be nice to each other because we live with each other.  We have our own purposes and reasons for getting up in the morning and doing what is necessary.

I don't understand the morality questions people have.  I have been in an adult bible study class and in a university ethics class.  And I can tell you no one agrees with anyone else 100% - not even the christian types who were all attending the same church could agree on something as simple as what it means to "rest on Sunday".  Given that all of us had jobs, children, hobbies, housework and yard work, that wasn't going to wait around for Monday.

I don't understand the "purpose" question, either.  After all, just who gets tweets from god/s/dess a couple of times a day, informing and instructing on said purpose?  Just how does any of those theist types "know" what purpose that collection of deities has in mind?  We find a reason to get up in the morning and put one foot in front of the other.  Doesn't matter what the reason is - mine is as simple as I can make it because I don't want to paint myself in a corner with promises I can't keep.  So I try to make my corner of the world a little better.  Some days, I have problems meeting even that simple goal.

Yeah, I agree with all of this.  With the morality thing, well, I'm not really surprised by that. As for the purpose... I just dunno. But it feels good to have a purpose, I just feel like that. To belong somewhere. Perhaps that is because I never felt like that. I don't know.


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lll

 

Doesn’t everything you know about Christianity indicate if seek god you will find him? Jesus said (Mathew 7:7) "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.” If you honestly are looking to find god, wouldn’t the Christian god respond? You are obviously honestly seeking god and the fact you cannot find him proves he does not exist. A good god would not reject someone who wants faith; he would not send him to hell. It doesn’t make sense and violates the promises of Jesus himself in the gospels. 

I am doing research for a book with the premise that the fact Christianity doesn’t work proves the Christian god doesn’t exist. Does anyone posting here mind if I quote this discussion?

 


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I certainly don't.

I certainly don't.

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@OP:  I'm with you, to an

@OP:  I'm with you, to an extent.  I would like to think there is an afterlife.  The whole moral guidance/ultimate being thing...I'm not so sure that is attractive to me, at least not with the world in the state it currently is in.  Maybe if there was some sort of system of progression, like this whole life turns out to be the ultimate MMORPG and our immortal minds are stuck in it until we hit a level cap Sticking out tongue

 

After I mentally left evangelical Christianity I spent a long time, years, searching for another religion.  I was never able to believe again, in anything.  Eventually I realized I didn't need to.

 

I'm not an atheist hero though...if someone could prove that I could get an eternally blissful afterlife I'd kiss whatever godly ass I needed to kiss to make that happen, and I'd take my family with me.

 

Unfortunately, that isn't likely to happen Smiling

 

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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Quote:I do want to feel like

Quote:
I do want to feel like a part of something or really feel I am something

And the only rational reason to do that is because YOU want to and it is the meaning YOU give yourself. You don't simply buy into anything simply because you see others doing it. That is not a good reason to do anything. Whatever you do it has to be YOU not what others expect of you or what others say you should do.

You can only be yourself and that is all you should be. You'll find you'll stress yourself out a lot less trying to fit the script of other people.

If there really is a hobby or issue you are passionate about, or even if you like helping others, use your spare time to do that. That's what gets me through the tough crap in life. My mom, my cat, my best friend Bob, my poetry, my speaking out here and elsewhere as an atheist. Watching the Redskins. All those things fill me without worrying about what others think I should be.

When you are yourself others see that and if they don't value you because you don't fit their mold, then those are people you really don't need crawling into your head. You may have to deal with those people, and some people you disagree with might even be loved ones or friends. But don't let anyone, not even me, define you, only you can do that.

I was much more depressed and stressed out trying to be everything to others. I am much better off mentally now that I don't let others define me. And even here you can see me battle other atheists who on certain issues want to ring my neck. I think even my dissenters would prefer my honesty than cowering out of fear of life.

Bottom line be yourself accept yourself as you are. Always listen and learn, but don't conform simply to conform.  And never be afraid to be alone. I'd rather be alone in life than live a lie or be part of a lie because it makes others feel good.

Independence isn't built on fear or conformity or "belonging". It is built on seeing yourself as an individual. You will relieve yourself from a lot of needless worry and stress once you accept that. I used to be like you. I used to want so badly to be someone or be part of something. It wasn't until I lost that attitude that I started liking myself and others started liking me.

 

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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SarcasticIndeed wrote:
And I felt good, but then again, I didn't really like it. I don't want just to "perish from existence" when I die. I want someone to be up there, this world would be better then! I don't want to rot in heaven.

I don't understand a few things in this post:

-how is it that you say "I'm happy to be free -- no morals no crap" and then you say "but I don't feel good"?

-how is it that you say "I want to be someone up there" and then "I don't want to rot in heaven"?

I find these words pretty conflicting. Maybe if you described the reality you desire we (I) could understand you better...


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Clearing Up

That should be hell instead of heaven... I mixed stuff. Anyway, the first refers to how I felt I was free. But still, the idea that I will perish and disappear after I die also made me sad. Like a double-edged sword for me.

The second, I see I didn't describe very good. I want someone to be up there, I do believe it would be better like that. The second statement is more like my fear of the chance that God exists, which may be small, but it sure is there, as I cannot disapprove he exists. If he does, I don't want to eternally rot somewhere.

I hope that cleared things up.


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Truth

I was dead for about 13.5 billion years... no pain, no fear and to paraphrase Twain, I didn't feel in the least bit inconvenienced.
The idea of spending an eternity ANYWHERE is repulsive to me. You read it all, see it all, DO it all, and you still have eternity to go.
The universe hums along swimmingly without a hint of magic, nothing that we have seen needs the supernatural to function. I don't therefore see a need for a god. I've had good times, some really bad times and made my share of mistakes, and I've learned from it all and it all has made me who I am for good or ill. No god needed.
I don't fear getting stomped by Godzilla.
I don't fear getting sucked dry by Dracula.
I don't fear getting gang probed by Aliens.
I don't fear the wrath of a god.

Reality is beautiful.
The real universe is awe inspiring.
Your purpose is exactly what you make it.

LC >;-}>
 

Christianity: A disgusting middle eastern blood cult, based in human sacrifice, with sacraments of cannibalism and vampirism, whose highest icon is of a near naked man hanging in torment from a device of torture.


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SarcasticIndeed wrote:Yeah,

SarcasticIndeed wrote:

Yeah, I agree with all of this.  With the morality thing, well, I'm not really surprised by that. As for the purpose... I just dunno. But it feels good to have a purpose, I just feel like that. To belong somewhere. Perhaps that is because I never felt like that. I don't know.

 

Being here on the RationalResponders forums is the closest I have ever come to feeling like I belong.  And the older I get, the less I want to belong to the majority of the world.  I don't need to hang with a bunch of delusional people.  Whatever their delusions may be.

Make up a purpose that you like and feels comfortable for you.  Follow it.  Like it or not, most of us will be forgotten when we are dead, only a few are memorialized to have a lasting place in history.  So whatever you decide to do, to follow, to venerate, will be for your own peace and pleasure. 

You can belong to something, to some greater good without religion - contrary to what most theists will tell you.  Look for it, find it, belong to it.  You may find like minded people to hang with as well.  Never know.

And take some vitamin D supplements - about 2,000 to 4,000 IU a day.  Low vitamin D levels are associated with depression.  The measly 200 IU in most vitamin tablets is not enough.  For comparison, a fair skinned person in a bikini out in the sun just until they turn pink - not sunburned - their skin manufactures 14,000 IU of vitamin D.  4,000 IU is pretty small comparatively.  Lot of research on the subject in recent years - all published in peer reviewed journals if you need to look it up.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


SarcasticIndeed
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 Quote: Being here on the

 

Quote:

 

Being here on the RationalResponders forums is the closest I have ever come to feeling like I belong.  And the older I get, the less I want to belong to the majority of the world.  I don't need to hang with a bunch of delusional people.  Whatever their delusions may be.

Make up a purpose that you like and feels comfortable for you.  Follow it.  Like it or not, most of us will be forgotten when we are dead, only a few are memorialized to have a lasting place in history.  So whatever you decide to do, to follow, to venerate, will be for your own peace and pleasure. 

You can belong to something, to some greater good without religion - contrary to what most theists will tell you.  Look for it, find it, belong to it.  You may find like minded people to hang with as well.  Never know.

And take some vitamin D supplements - about 2,000 to 4,000 IU a day.  Low vitamin D levels are associated with depression.  The measly 200 IU in most vitamin tablets is not enough.  For comparison, a fair skinned person in a bikini out in the sun just until they turn pink - not sunburned - their skin manufactures 14,000 IU of vitamin D.  4,000 IU is pretty small comparatively.  Lot of research on the subject in recent years - all published in peer reviewed journals if you need to look it up."

 

To be honest, I've also felt to belong somewhere the most on the internet, too, and I feel I will continue to be on here for quite some time. I'll try using some vitamin D too. Thanks.

Quote:

I was dead for about 13.5 billion years... no pain, no fear and to paraphrase Twain, I didn't feel in the least bit inconvenienced.
The idea of spending an eternity ANYWHERE is repulsive to me. You read it all, see it all, DO it all, and you still have eternity to go.
The universe hums along swimmingly without a hint of magic, nothing that we have seen needs the supernatural to function. I don't therefore see a need for a god. I've had good times, some really bad times and made my share of mistakes, and I've learned from it all and it all has made me who I am for good or ill. No god needed.
I don't fear getting stomped by Godzilla.
I don't fear getting sucked dry by Dracula.
I don't fear getting gang probed by Aliens.
I don't fear the wrath of a god.

I understand how you don't want to live an eternity, but can you really be indifferent to the 0.0000001% chance that you might go to a place where you will eternally suffer, and not for one second will you feel any kind of joy?

 


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Quote:I understand how you

Quote:
I understand how you don't want to live an eternity, but can you really be indifferent to the 0.0000001% chance that you might go to a place where you will eternally suffer, and not for one second will you feel any kind of joy?

 

I place that just above Dracula and just behind Aliens on my list of concerns....
But to answer you directly, yes, I can be totally indifferent to a superstitious dread of a fantasy dungeon.

 

LC >;-}>

 

Christianity: A disgusting middle eastern blood cult, based in human sacrifice, with sacraments of cannibalism and vampirism, whose highest icon is of a near naked man hanging in torment from a device of torture.


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SarcasticIndeed wrote:I

SarcasticIndeed wrote:
I understand how you don't want to live an eternity, but can you really be indifferent to the 0.0000001% chance that you might go to a place where you will eternally suffer, and not for one second will you feel any kind of joy?

Nobody wants to suffer. But, I am indifferent to it in the sense that I'm not going to worry about how it might be affected by my thoughts and actions.

There's no evidence or criteria for evaluating any afterlife at all, so we can't establish probabilities for a specific scenario. You can only consider every imaginable or unimaginable situation to be equally probable, so you're just as likely to be somewhere sucky if you did believe in a god.  

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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 I had to laugh to the

 I had to laugh to the reply. Well, i understand.


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cj wrote:Being here on the

cj wrote:

Being here on the RationalResponders forums is the closest I have ever come to feeling like I belong.  And the older I get, the less I want to belong to the majority of the world.  I don't need to hang with a bunch of delusional people.  Whatever their delusions may be.

Well said CJ Smiling I feel the same way.  @OP, if your "eternal soul" is immaterial, how is it going to "burn" in hell?  If it is material, how is it going to burn forever? 

The whole idea of hell, a place created by a benevolent creature, the epitome of all that is good, is ridiculous.  Imagine a being that is infinitely good and loving (such as the Abrahamic god is supposed to be), then imagine said creature creating an eternal dungeon for people that have led a good life, but didn't believe in it, to "burn" for eternity.  It's such an obvious and not very well thought of scare tactic...  I would place that a bit lower then getting sucked dry by Dracula.  Then again I from Romania, I was born about 200 Kms from Transilvania.  Smiling

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


cj
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Ktulu wrote:@OP, if your

Ktulu wrote:

@OP, if your "eternal soul" is immaterial, how is it going to "burn" in hell?  If it is material, how is it going to burn forever? 

The whole idea of hell, a place created by a benevolent creature, the epitome of all that is good, is ridiculous.  Imagine a being that is infinitely good and loving (such as the Abrahamic god is supposed to be), then imagine said creature creating an eternal dungeon for people that have led a good life, but didn't believe in it, to "burn" for eternity.  It's such an obvious and not very well thought of scare tactic...  I would place that a bit lower then getting sucked dry by Dracula.  Then again I from Romania, I was born about 200 Kms from Transilvania.  Smiling

 

Cool........ Though my understanding was that Vlad the Impaler lived in said castle.  I think I would rather be sucked dry by some sexy guy than be impaled.  From the pictures I have seen, they didn't seem to care how they impaled you or your current state of consciousness.

 

 

I have this fear of being forced to spend eternity with some of the televangelists.  If I am conscious after I die, I would like to go to where ever they aren't. 

But then, I don't remember being not born, so why should I remember being dead?

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


luca
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fornever

SarcasticIndeed wrote:

That should be hell instead of heaven... I mixed stuff. Anyway, the first refers to how I felt I was free. But still, the idea that I will perish and disappear after I die also made me sad. Like a double-edged sword for me.

The second, I see I didn't describe very good. I want someone to be up there, I do believe it would be better like that. The second statement is more like my fear of the chance that God exists, which may be small, but it sure is there, as I cannot disapprove he exists. If he does, I don't want to eternally rot somewhere.

I hope that cleared things up.

No it didn't. Sticking out tongue

Why 'disappearing' would make you sad? Supposing you are aware that your memories will survive in you friends, I deduce you mean that you want to live like forever?

"You cannot disprove he exists"? Boy, you don't know even "what" to disprove the existance of. That doesn't even make sense. You can say "the christian/hebrew god doesn't exists" because all the evidence is man made. So you have nothing to start with. It's so weak I don't even understand why it should be considered.


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 fornever

 

 

fornever wrote:
 

SarcasticIndeed wrote:

 

That should be hell instead of heaven... I mixed stuff. Anyway, the first refers to how I felt I was free. But still, the idea that I will perish and disappear after I die also made me sad. Like a double-edged sword for me.

The second, I see I didn't describe very good. I want someone to be up there, I do believe it would be better like that. The second statement is more like my fear of the chance that God exists, which may be small, but it sure is there, as I cannot disapprove he exists. If he does, I don't want to eternally rot somewhere.

I hope that cleared things up.

 

No it didn't. Sticking out tongue

Why 'disappearing' would make you sad? Supposing you are aware that your memories will survive in you friends, I deduce you mean that you want to live like forever?

"You cannot disprove he exists"? Boy, you don't know even "what" to disprove the existance of. That doesn't even make sense. You can say "the christian/hebrew god doesn't exists" because all the evidence is man made. So you have nothing to start with. It's so weak I don't even understand why it should be considered.

Indeed, if I perished I wouldn't feel anything, so that's not bad at all. And with the Gods thing, I should agree with that.

 

 


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Who is God? What is God?

What is the purpose of life?
Who am I?
what am I?
Who is God ?
Were does the universe begin?

These are the basic questions that lead man to the moon and to the universe, looking for answers. Great scientist have spent their lifetime looking at the universe for answers. Two examples are Albert Eistein and Issac newton.

Science is the study of the physical natural world using observation and experiments.

What is God? God is spirit, therefore he is more than natural. He is supernatural. There are different bodies in the world. There is the natural human body, animal bodies, fish bodies, and then there is the spiritual body. Example: the body of AIR , you cannot see it, but you can see it's efects when the wind blows the leaves off a tree. 
The human being is limited to the physical world. We can only study the things that we see, hear, smell and feel using our limited technology.
We only know the things that God has revealed.God has revealed that he is eternal, no beginning and no end.The universe and time itself has a bigining and therefore one day an end.God revealed himself to humanity in the form of a man called Jesus. God revealed his words in the book called the word of God or bible.The bible itself is not a regular common Book. Isaac Newton studied the bible and discovered that it was written in a mathematical puzzle or code. This is the reason why we study Jesus and the bible.To discover God in any other way would require the person to be a genius, with the example of Isaac newton or Albert Einstein discovery of God using mathematics and the laws of physics. 
The human being lives in a Three dimensional world or a physical world (check out Einstein  or  Carl Sagan  3 dimension explanation on you tube).God exist in another dimension, but he has the capability to enter our 3 dimension world when he wants to. We the humans are limited to this 3D world and cannot cross over to another dimension.To compare God's world and dimension to our world is like comparing apples and oranges .The use of science to reveal God   Being or existence is not the proper way. But it is the proper way to study Jesus, the bible and Israel. 

Albert Einstein said; "I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangements of the books, but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God."

We are sure that you have heard about Sir Isaac Newton's contributions to Mathematics and Physics. His discovery of Gravity, his formulation of the laws of Motion and of interaction between bodies. Many of you will have heard of his invention of Calculus, of differentiation and of integration. But there is one thing that we are equally sure that most of you will have never heard of. And it is this: 
Sir Isaac Newton knew that the Bible was written in a code. 
He spent around half of his life trying to decode it.

Sir Isaac Newton in his book   Principia said ; "The most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being. 

What did the two world's most intelligent scientists know that we today, do not know?

God Bless.

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


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Quote:Sir Isaac Newton in

Quote:
Sir Isaac Newton in his book   Principia said ; "The most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.

Ahhhhhhhh, platitudes, created out of the young dumb and full of cum. Then the reality of taxes and death bitch slap you into reality. Did that to me too.

I have a sense of "awe"  too. And as smart as Newton was, he also got things wrong too. His idea of Alchemy went nowhere.  Just like, although I ended up dating and getting married, the one girl I pined for in church when I did believe, almost to the point of unhealthy stalking, I got bitch slapped by the reality that she was not interested, no matter how my warm fuzzy feeling of "love" was for her.

Newton, as smart as he was, stopped at a gap and said "God did it". And people who believed in god before thought the earth was flat and had the same sense of "awe" you are trying to falsely attribute to a fictional friend in the sky.

I am quite sure the ancient Egyptians looked at how big the sun was and thought "Wow". But they made the same mental mistake you are making now. They mistook the natural power of the sun and nature as something that had human qualities.

If we always accepted social norms our species never would have left the caves.

Humans make up gods because they are falsely trying to replace their parents and ignore their finite existence. All human myths will die with our species when our species goes extinct because there will be no future generation to sell those superstitions to.

But, knowing that reality does not negate my "sense of awe". It just means I don't attribute it to fictional things.

 

 

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Not credible witnesses

mellestad wrote:

 

I'm not an atheist hero though...if someone could prove that I could get an eternally blissful afterlife I'd kiss whatever godly ass I needed to kiss to make that happen, and I'd take my family with me.

 

 It is completely logical that you would kiss godly ass if you actually believed in eternal bliss (and eternal hellfire). You would do anything necessary to reach salvation.

 

If you follow comparative studies on morality between Christians and atheists, if you compare atheist (Japan, Sweden) against Christian nations, if you look at America’s (self proclaimed most Christian nation on earth) culture (greed, obesity, spouse and child abuse, drugs etc, etc), if you look at murder rates in the countries in the world with the highest % of Christians (El Salvador, Venezuela, Colombia and Mexico),  if you track catholic priest and other religious child rapists you have to conclude Christians do not come close to kissing godly ass. They have their weekly support meetings, peer pressure, bible reading, free counseling and prayer to help them in morality in addition to the promise of heaven and hell yet these do not produce results – then you add gods supernatural support in “being good”.  With all this it is impossible that Christians are not substantially more moral, yet they are not.  They are no more moral than atheists.

 

Proof that the Christian god doesn’t exist rests in the fact Christians, the only witnesses to the existence of their god, do not ACT as if they believe. They are not credible witnesses.

 


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Newton, as smart as he was

The probability of Isaac Newton being correct on the subject of the existence of God far exceeds your probability of the theory of no God. Due to the fact of his qualifications and experience in the subjects of mathematics , physics, cosmology, and theology.

I understand your opposition on this matter. To agree with the subject would be against your very principal. But in the end, there can only be the truth. And what is the truth?

To every action there is always opposed an equal reaction.
Isaac Newton

Like I said before. Without Jesus and the bible, the understanding of this subject requires genius intelligence like in the case of Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein.

I wish you the best in life. And perhaps one day you will understand.

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


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                         Jesus Christ, Jesu Cristo, Yoshuah bar yusuph was fictional by what ever name you misuse.  It is not a name it is a title {the annointed savior of god or some gods annointed savior} the JC charactor is also called a Nazarene, a Pharisee, a rabbi a Gallalean a son of David and a son of Capernaum, a son of a rapeing Greek soldier, a son of Joeseph, a carpenter, a mason, a wine maker, a foot washer an ill-tempered fanatic, a mild mannered teacher, a saint  and a drunken party animal.  Your looking at aspects of 8 or 9 different people combined into one person; none of them were magical and no 1 of them was a Joshua b. Joseph.                      Newton was a brillent scientist but also a woo woo artist straight from the loony bin, a celbate who wrote more on alchemy and astrology then on real science.

 

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Jimenezj wrote:The

Jimenezj wrote:
The probability of Isaac Newton being correct on the subject of the existence of God far exceeds your probability of the theory of no God. Due to the fact of his qualifications and experience in the subjects of mathematics , physics, cosmology, and theology. I understand your opposition on this matter. To agree with the subject would be against your very principal. But in the end, there can only be the truth. And what is the truth? To every action there is always opposed an equal reaction. Isaac Newton Like I said before. Without Jesus and the bible, the understanding of this subject requires genius intelligence like in the case of Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein. I wish you the best in life. And perhaps one day you will understand.

Muslims with PHDs could argue since Arabs invented Algebra that makes Allah the one true god, but yet you are not a Muslim.

Newton no matter how smart he was with one subject does not mean he got it right on everything. Being good and right on one thing does not mean you are right on every claim you make.

Throughout human history very smart people got some things right, The Egyptians were master builders and on that took a lot of knowledge about math and physical shapes to build, But because they built all that from the technology they used at the time did not make their gods real.

Netwon did what far to many humans before him, and to this day still do, they hit a gap and stop and stupidly say "my deity(incert Allah/Jesus/Yahweh/ect ect ect) did it"

What you are doing would be as stupid as a Si Fi fan claiming, AND I HAVE HEARD THIS FROM STAR TREC FANS,.....I have heard them claim that Gene Roddenberry invented the modern cell phone because the show Star Trec depicted the "tricorder" ( a hand held communication device".

Even in this case, just like your claim, what they miss is all the crap that Roddenberry's show depicted that will never be true, such as Tribbles, Klingons and Transporters. Not to mention Roddenberry didn't even really come up with the idea out of the blue. He was aware that science was already postulating the possibility of shrinking microwave communication to that size. But neither he, or the scientists in reality AT THAT TIME, had any clue that it could be a reality AT THAT TIME.

The discoveries Newton got right do not make his personal god real anymore than he was right about Alchemy which he postulated as well. Otherwise Allah is the one true god because Arabs invented Algebra.

But since we are quoting smart people if you want to go that route. Stephen Hawkins, who has now much more data and knowledge of science than Newton did, says that a god(ANY GOD) is not required to explain anything in nature or the universe.

Now ask yourself, would you buy a Muslim's argument if they argued science to say that their god existed? The truth is you would not AND YOU WOULD BE RIGHT. So do not expect us to buy your claims when you are doing nothing differently that we have seen from others as well.

The reality is that all deity/god/God/non material thinking entity claims, in our entire species evolution, are merely our own projections of human qualities on the world around us. It is why humans falsely believed that volcanos were gods. It is why the Egyptians falsely believed that the sun was a god, and you are doing no differently.

All god belief is is a a placebo gap in a false attempt to replace our parents and ignore our finite existence. No amount of science no matter which religion is trying to falsely retrofit and bastardize science, will change the fact that humans merely invent gods because the idea of having a super hero is appealing to them.

 

 

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Newton was a brillent scientist but also Woo woo artist.

You are wrong on Jesus and on Newtons intelligence. Because of him, scientist today study the mathematical formulas to discover laws of physics. Because of him , we have Einstein formulas on the law of general relativity. Today, scientist are still trying to figure out a law that will unite Einstein law of general relativity and the law of quantum mechanics. To believe that Newton is a "woo woo artist " is absurd. What would Einstein educated evaluation be on Jesus?

When interviewed by the Saturday Evening Post in 1929
"You accept the historical existence of Jesus?"

Einstein answered; "Unquestionably! No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life."

If you do not believe that the bible is God's word, read it and let Jesus speak for himself.

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


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Star Trec

You spoke about :

A. Muslims
B. Egyptians
C. Star Treck

Stick to the context.

You rely on Hawkins for your theory. What would Hawkins say about the subject ?

Steven Hawkins:  In his book called "a brief history of time " pages 125-127 ,he said regarding the universe and the creation of life.

"It  would be very difficult to explain why the universe would have begun in just this way, except as the act of a God who intended to create beings just like us. "

It seems that Professor Hawking has changed his mind about the need for God.

Like I said before. Without Jesus and the bible, the undetstanding of this subject requires genius intelligence like in the case of Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein.

I wish you the best in life. And perhaps one day you will understand .

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


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Jimenezj wrote:You are wrong

Jimenezj wrote:

You are wrong on Jesus and on Newtons intelligence. Because of him, scientist today study the mathematical formulas to discover laws of physics. Because of him , we have Einstein formulas on the law of general relativity. Today, scientist are still trying to figure out a law that will unite Einstein law of general relativity and the law of quantum mechanics. To believe that Newton is a "woo woo artist " is absurd. What would Einstein educated evaluation be on Jesus?

I have to oppose here. Isaac is a genius, I don't doubt it. And I know he helped many scientist and geniuses of today's to create theories, however, this doesn't mean he was genuine in every science. Like all people in his time, he was a subject to many false beliefs. Alchemy is one of them. I don't doubt if you met him now, he would make many absurd statements about the world. This was not because he was stupid, but because he lived in the time when people lacked scientifical ways to explain things.

Jimenezj wrote:

When interviewed by the Saturday Evening Post in 1929
"You accept the historical existence of Jesus?"

Einstein answered; "Unquestionably! No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life."

If you do not believe that the bible is God's word, read it and let Jesus speak for himself.

Now you make the assumption that Jesus must exist because a genius said he felt he did. We cannot conclude something based on a feeling a genius got. Einstein, as much as a genius he was, he made many false theories throughout his life. Not everything he thought of was true. In fact, what he believed the universe was was much different from what it came to be.

Also, while I do not have a certain way to explain this, I'll do my best. This "thing" Einstein felt when hearing the gospels is very well in our own blood. When we are subjected to these spiritual things, our mind will 99% find something enlightening in them. Why? Because we search for it, and consciously or unconcsiously want it to happen. Some of us just need to feel what we are hearing. When I'm reading about hell, I'm dead scared of it. I begin to think it is undoubtely there. Then, when I read posts from atheists over here, I feel as the biggest atheist in the world. This is very similar to what Einstein felt. He listened to a gospel and felt the presence of what the gospel told about.

Jimenezj wrote:

You rely on Hawkins for your theory. What would Hawkins say about the subject ?

Steven Hawkins:  In his book called "a brief history of time " pages 125-127 ,he said regarding the universe and the creation of life.

"It  would be very difficult to explain why the universe would have begun in just this way, except as the act of a God who intended to create beings just like us. "

It seems that Professor Hawking has changed his mind about the need for God.

A brief history of time was released in 1988. And a long time passed before that. He learned about many things and many breakthroughs were made in the period up to now. It is normal he changed his opinion on God after science has explained so much. W

Jimenezj wrote:

Like I said before. Without Jesus and the bible, the undetstanding of this subject requires genius intelligence like in the case of Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein.

I find it interesting that you didn't include Stephen there. Why? Is it because he is an atheist?

Anyway, I want to tell you your statement is surely false. Those of genius intelligence don't have any special approach to religion. Their opinions can be just as right and false as ours can be. Just because they are geniuses doesn't mean they are instantaneously right about something. Religion is not a topic that requires genius intelligence to understand. Without bible, they would just have to find another approach to religion, not counting the Christian God. I'm pretty sure I'm not genius, and I believe I have some understanding over religion. It's just wrong to assume only geniuses can understand religion.


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sarcasticindeed

Sir, you are wrong. I will explain why. Some have already been explained.

sarcasticindeed: Those of genius intelligence don't have any special approach to religion.

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.
Albert Einstein, "Science, Philosophy and Religion: a Symposium", 1941

If you read my threads # 24, 27, 30, 31, then perhaps you will have a better understanding of my views and on the views of others based on educated study of the subject.

On Isaac Newton "this doesn't mean he was a genius in every science."

Newton was a Master Genius in Mathematics, and a genius in physics, cosmology, and theology.Read thread #27.

recently, Marcus du Sautoy has called mathematics 'the Queen of Science...the main driving force behind scientific discovery'

Or in other word, mathematics is the building blocks of science and a universal language.

On Einstein "feelings".

Einstein studied the universe better than any other Scientist known today. He discovered the law of general relativity and was part in the discovery of quantum physics. One of the evidence for the existence of God is the universe called the cosmological argument. It is of no surprise that Einstein was quoted saying : I’m not an atheist and I don’t think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many different languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn’t know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God.

-Albert Einstein
His feelings toward God came after his study of the universe and the discovery of some of the universal laws of physics. His feelings are justified by his long life study of the universe.

On Stephen Hawkins not being included on my list.

In my list of the founding fathers of science, i do not consider Hawkins to be part of that group. Hawkins to me is a student compared to the Masters of science.

"I do not have a certain way to explain this, I’ll do my best"

Without the proper education on the subject, you will never know how to explain anything.

I am sorry if it seems like im trying to insult your intelligence, But im not. I am sure you are a very intelligent human being. But to spend your life studying God, mathematics, physics, and the universe is not an easy subject. That is why there exist so much confusion on the subject.

you said "I'll do my best".

I believe that "trying" is all we can do in life. But in trying , we must read all the evidence and become educated on the subject.

I had an excellent time in this discussion with all of you. I do not hate the atheist or any other religion or race. To "Hate" is to go against my principals. I just don’t agree with a lot of philosophies based on the facts and evidence against them. In the end i hope we all learned something about our beliefs. Please do not reply, i will not be answering anymore questions. I have said what was meant to be said. I wish you all the best in life. Merry Christmas and God Bless.

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


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 Jimenezj wrote:Science

 

Jimenezj wrote:

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. 
Albert Einstein, "Science, Philosophy and Religion: a Symposium", 1941

You cannot know this is true just because a genius said it, I believe I explained it. He could've been as wrong as you or me. It's false to assume a genius's opinion is true just because he is a genius. For instance, when Einstein's theory of relativity was still in progress, he believed the universe is stationary and calm, just because he would it logical. Then when a person mathematically concluded this cannot be true, Einstein said "Your mathematics are good, but your physics are horrible." Yet now we know the universe is very different than what Einstein thought it was. The person who opposed him wasn't a genius, but he still proved one wrong.

Jimenezj wrote:

On Einstein "feelings".

Einstein studied the universe better than any other Scientist known today. He discovered the law of general relativity and was part in the discovery of quantum physics. One of the evidence for the existence of God is the universe called the cosmological argument. It is of no surprise that Einstein was quoted saying : I’m not an atheist and I don’t think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many different languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn’t know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God.

-Albert Einstein
His feelings toward God came after his study of the universe and the discovery of some of the universal laws of physics. His feelings are justified by his long life study of the universe.

Don't contradict yourself. You said he concluded Jesus exists from a gospel. Now you are mentioning his universe observation. The part about "feelings" are purely focused on how we have the tendency to feel something that is not there, what is considered spiritual, and what is at the moment being told to us.

Jimenezj wrote:

On Stephen Hawkins not being included on my list.

In my list of the founding fathers of science, i do not consider Hawkins to be part of that group. Hawkins to me is a student compared to the Masters of science.

If you believe so. Hawkings is very well on par with the both you mentioned in terms of intelligence.

Jimenezj wrote:

"I do not have a certain way to explain this, I’ll do my best"

Without the proper education on the subject, you will never know how to explain anything.

I am sorry if it seems like im trying to insult your intelligence, But im not. I am sure you are a very intelligent human being. But to spend your life studying God, mathematics, physics, and the universe is not an easy subject. That is why there exist so much confusion on the subject.


Oh right, I forgot I don't have a degree in emotions, so I shouldn't talk about it. I didn't say I can't explain it because I have no knowledge over it, it can just be hard to explain. I'm pretty sure what I said is true to human's nature. A short explanation would be the tendency that makes most humans feel something spiritual when reading something that is considered or is supposed to be spiritual. We tend to be affected by these things, we liked it or not. Einstein was not an exception.

Jimenezj wrote:

you said "I'll do my best".

I believe that "trying" is all we can do in life. But in trying , we must read all the evidence and become educated on the subject.

I'll try to touch my ear. I did it. Yet I have no much evidence on how my muscle moved and how my brain sent the signals to them to touch my ear. Live by that assumption. Your choice.

 

Using other's quotes to prove your opinion is wrong, it means you just have no yours opinion. So stop quoting others if you want what you think to be taken seriously.

And I do not care you won't reply, I just wanted to point out flaw in your logic.

Cheers.

 

 


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Quote:I had an excellent

Quote:
I had an excellent time in this discussion with all of you. I do not hate the atheist or any other religion or race. To "Hate" is to go against my principals.

That is a childish way of thinking.

Hate is perfectly within the range of human emotions and can be a positive thing in context.

"Hate" in the context of ignorance and bigotry is a mere reflection of human insecurity and selfish narcissism.

However "hate" in the context of responding to a bad claim is quite rational. Wouldn't you hate it if someone went around today claiming the earth to be flat? That kind of positive hate motivates you to challenge such absurdities.

I hate all claims of deities, not in the context that they happen, or in the fact that humans SHOULD have the right to make those claims. I hate deity claims because people want taboos set up for those claims and never want to be challenged on those claims. That "hate" motivates me to challenge them at a minimum, to demonstrate that they are not special and that no human is special.

Deity belief sets up the believer to insert fantasy in as a gap filler. Just like Galileo would have been right to hate the church for putting him under house arrest for telling the truth about the nature of reality.

The other thing I hate about human behavior is that statements yours is that it is a mere attempt to put yourself above nature. No human, not you, not me, no human is above nature. When more and more humans accept themselves as part of nature instead of being above it, that's where our collective problem solving will happen more.

 

 

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Believing

 I'm only seeing this a year later,did u come right with believing?


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 ? to sarcastic 

 ? to sarcastic 


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no worries

I feel for you. When you start learning about biblical errors and how the bible has been translated many many times you start to question the whole thing. I don't think it is important to try and understand what any after life would be like if there is one. Honestly, I would just prepare yourself for anything. That is dignity my friend. But I am guessing that when you die you are dead. To me, this is not sad but reassurance  I need to live this life out to its highest potential. But right on dude, question everything.

Eternity wouldn't be much of an experience.


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have you ever

have you ever tried a large dose of magic mushrooms alone by yourself? very easy to enjoy life after one of those experiences. You see the real importance of living now, than for living for the future.

Eternity wouldn't be much of an experience.