Ghetto Mentality

Beyond Saving
Silver Member
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 4565
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is offlineOffline
Ghetto Mentality

 

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
The ghetto mentality

The only one between the two of us who has a "ghetto mentality" is you.

Thats how drug dealers think. That is how gang members think. As long as they get what they want, fuck everyone else.

If "every man for themselves" is your mentality your mindset fits that "ghetto mentality", not mine.

Again, Germany has janitors and dish washers too. But they have less of a pay gap and far better education and less of a crime rate. WHY? Because their government and their top money makers care and build and the workers are treated as important, not trash like you treat the poor.

What scares you? That the middle class and working poor are finally saying enough? Are you scared that if more people get educations you wont be able to treat them like shit?

YOU are the problem, not the middle class and poor. YOU and your selfish attitude that as long as you make money you have no duty or loyalty to the community you live in. THAT is what creates ghettos.

Keep it up, maybe we can have shanty towns and mountains covered in trash just like Tijuana. It would be fantastic if the entire nation looked like that.

YOU are the one setting the standards low and you are too deluded to realize it. You are merely perpetuating the global economic race to the bottom.

 

By ghetto mentality I meant the type of thinking that permeates people who are unable to get themselves out of it. Generally, it is the attitude that they are unable to earn more money, unable to own part of the means of production and unable to improve their personal lives. Instead of looking at what they are doing and trying things differently they point the finger at others. Namely, those who have succeeded. They believe that success in capitalism is based mainly on exploiting/taking advantage of others. So if their life sucks, it is because someone exploited them. Since they believe it is impossible to improve their lot in life, they don't try. You and your ideology supports that type of thinking.

 

When I tell people with ghetto mentality what things they could do to succeed they usually respond by declaring me delusional or say "its not that easy" or "you don't know what you're talking about". I don't know why people resist advice so much. People on this site have routinely asserted "you don't understand what it is like" etc. Yeah, I know what its like not having enough money for food. Especially when you are too proud/stubborn to get government aid. I ate my share of ramen. Once a week I went to a church that had a charity dinner. I remember having a romantic candle lit dinner on a park bench eating Wendy's as an anniversary dinner with my girlfriend. I have been at both ends of the tax bracket. About the only thing that I have no experience with is having kids to take care of. Which I admit would have been a fucking nightmare back then. 

 

Yet while those with the ghetto mentality tell me I have no clue what its like to live on an income I have in fact lived on, they have all sorts of advice on how to run a business even though they never ran one. It is kind of like an Amish telling you how to drive a car. If you think the pay gap is a problem, I can tell you specific things you can do to increase your own income and therefore decrease the pay gap. If you refuse to do those things, then you really only have yourself to blame. Those with the ghetto mentality will refuse to accept that they could increase their income.

 

This mentality is strong and seems to be spreading to much of the lower middle class as well. When I ask people specifically, "what prevents you from making more money" I rarely get an answer at all. If I do get an answer it is some made up problem like "it takes money to make money" or "I don't have the training". When I offer a solution to those problems, it is almost always rejected as "impossible" even if I point out specific examples of people who did what I am suggesting. Obviously those people got "lucky". Well the only way to get "lucky" and shoot a hoop playing basketball is to throw the damn ball. If you never throw the ball, you don't have a basis for bitching about never making a basket.

 

You are right that it is about attitude. Those with ghetto mentality will always have the attitude that every problem is someone else's fault and a reason to not try. Those with entrepreneur mentality look at every problem as a temporary obstacle and find ways around it. When someone with the ghetto mentality fails in an endeavor, they look at it as evidence they were doomed from the start. People with ghetto mentality are pessimistic and use any hardship as an excuse to give up. When they fail, they point the finger and say "I couldn't help it" or "there is nothing I could do". 

 

When someone with entrepreneur mentality fails, they look at it as a learning experience and try again. People who are financially successful almost always have confidence, optimism and persistence, even in the face of unexpected disasters. They accept their failures as lessons and move on. Externally caused hardships are viewed as obstacles that will be overcome. They have a clear and definite vision of what they want to achieve and they find a way to get there. If any business venture I am involved in fails, I don't run around pointing fingers. Even if external parties are involved, I look at the decisions I made and consider what I could have done differently. 

 

If you are sitting around blaming others for your financial situation, you have ghetto mentality. If you are one of those that tells people who dare to dream of great things that they need to be "realistic" about their expectations, you are part of the culture that is pushing ghetto mentality. If you aren't happy with your income level or career or employer, you can change it. You can work for someone else. I've had my share of shitty employers. It was a running joke among those who knew me that I had a new job every pay period. Every time I saw someone I hadn't seen for awhile they would ask "So what job are you doing now?" 

 

The mentality that makes people look at employers as if they have so much power, like they are slave owners and your the slave. It doesn't make sense to me. And if people feel that way, I don't know why the continue going to work. I would rather live on very little money than put up with feeling enslaved/exploited by an employer. You are giving an employer your most valuable asset- time. Don't give it to them lightly. Demand the money and respect you believe your time is worth, and if you don't get it, go elsewhere. If no one is offering you a job, create your own. 

 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


FurryCatHerder
Theist
FurryCatHerder's picture
Posts: 1253
Joined: 2007-06-02
User is offlineOffline
I'm currently on the

I'm currently on the "heading upwards" end of "poverty", having been fairly far up the tax brackets a few years ago, so I understand 100% of what you're saying, but I still disagree with you.

One part you're missing out on is =dependents=.  When I was in my mid-30's and had more obligations than I have now (I'm pushing 50 ...), my choices were constrained by my obligations.  It's not an accident that people like Michael Dell, Bill Gates and Steve Jobs got their big breaks when they were young and childless.  The last time I was in a situation as financially messed up as the present one I didn't have the luxury of making many of the choices I make today.

Much of what people are objecting to, in so far as I can tell what people are actually objecting to, is the way that the people in power are exploiting the hell out of everything they can exploit the hell out of.  I was in a staff meeting 25 years ago and one of the employees (he was a department head, more or less) had just bought an expensive new truck that he actually needed for his work.  One of the upper level managers joked that the company "had him where they wanted him" because he couldn't just up and leave.  They didn't do any of what is common place today to him 25 years ago.

These days, it seems that all employers, banks, suppliers, clients etc. want to do is get people "where they want them."  Boeing just got spanked for moving construction of an airplane from one state to another in order to bust the union they have.  High-tech companies have been sending jobs to India and China as fast as they can get their employees to train their own replacements, letting them know they'd better work obscene amounts of overtime or they're next.  Wal-Mart has bankrupted a number of suppliers by squeezing every single last cent of profit possible out of them by threatening to dump them as a supplier if they don't accept making too little money to survive.

I don't have a single friend who has a "high tech" job who is working anything close to a 40 hour week.  Most work more than 50 hours a week, many work 60 hours, and a few have been regularly working 70 hour weeks for =months= on end.  I was working on a project a year before I was laid off where I was so short-staffed that (I was the lead) I worked 108 hours one week.  For anyone doing the math, there are 168 hours in a week.  And if you want to know how I did it, I worked quadruple shifts -- 32 hours STRAIGHT.  A project I lead several years before that was de-staffed.  When I warned management "bad things are going to happen", I was reprimanded for being a "trouble maker".  I was right about what was going to happen, but management didn't care -- all they cared about was that they didn't have to pay for the two or three additional programmers I wanted for my staff.

Yes, I know people who'd rather keep up with their favorite television show than do anything to get ahead in life, but for people who =are= trying to get ahead, there really does seem to be a "I got mine, f*ck you" mentality that throws obstacles in the way of everything.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


EXC
atheist
EXC's picture
Posts: 3139
Joined: 2008-01-17
User is offlineOffline
FurryCatHerder wrote:One

FurryCatHerder wrote:

One part you're missing out on is =dependents=.  When I was in my mid-30's and had more obligations than I have now (I'm pushing 50 ...), my choices were constrained by my obligations.  It's not an accident that people like Michael Dell, Bill Gates and Steve Jobs got their big breaks when they were young and childless.  The last time I was in a situation as financially messed up as the present one I didn't have the luxury of making many of the choices I make today.

How can something be an 'obligation' if you voluntarily decided to take on having children? Are one of the many people that live with the delusion that they had no choice in having children. Last time I checked it was voluntary.

If what you're saying is true, don't you think the government should not allow people like yourself to have children until they are prepared to take on the 'obligation'. If we're going to force people to be responsible citizens by paying taxes, why not force them to be responsible about when and with whom to have children? Shouldn't your argument be for force mandatory birth control and not higher income taxes to pay for other peoples' "obligations"?

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13663
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
I got an idea, the poor are

Quote:
The mentality that makes people look at employers as if they have so much power, like they are slave owners and your the slave.

Then they should stop acting like slave owners. And they do have too much power. Especially in the right to fuck the employee states. Do you have pictures of sweat shops that take up three pages, unfold and have a staple in the center hanging over your bed? Maybe you'd like us to look like China and India, but that will never be my idea of success.

I got an idea, the poor are worthless, lets just set up some ovens and stick them in them. Oh crap, that was tried before. Don't think that turned out too well.

Sorry Beyond, you are not the only person on the face of the planet and you are not the only class in this country. Get over it.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13663
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Quote:. Those with ghetto

Quote:
. Those with ghetto mentality will always have the attitude that every problem is someone else's fault

Really? The banks and car companies WE bailed out, but that is our fault? I didn't know I set their company policies. So now I am a CEO?

Sorry, but you still are stuck on thinking that ones own actions don't affect others and are stupidly applying that to an entire economy.

THE RICH CAUSED THIS PERIOD! People like you voted long term that allowed the look the other way policies that caused the auction of our government.

Now you get pissy when people at my scale want a voice too. Cry me a river.

I want everyone even at the lowest pay at a minimum to have As and Bs with a HS degree AT A MINIMUM. You know what that would do. It would prevent the bullies a the top from pushing them around. YOU want people poor and uneducated so they cant fight back.

Educated societies like Germany don't have our problems. You don't want an educated society because it would you couldn't keep the desperate and dependent on you.

"Let them eat cake" has caused our socialized losses that we pay for.

I have no sympathy for your mindset.

 

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Beyond Saving
Silver Member
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 4565
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote:Quote:. Those

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
. Those with ghetto mentality will always have the attitude that every problem is someone else's fault

Really? The banks and car companies WE bailed out, but that is our fault? I didn't know I set their company policies. So now I am a CEO?

Sorry, but you still are stuck on thinking that ones own actions don't affect others and are stupidly applying that to an entire economy.

THE RICH CAUSED THIS PERIOD! People like you voted long term that allowed the look the other way policies that caused the auction of our government.

Now you get pissy when people at my scale want a voice too. Cry me a river.

I want everyone even at the lowest pay at a minimum to have As and Bs with a HS degree AT A MINIMUM. You know what that would do. It would prevent the bullies a the top from pushing them around. YOU want people poor and uneducated so they cant fight back.

Educated societies like Germany don't have our problems. You don't want an educated society because it would you couldn't keep the desperate and dependent on you.

"Let them eat cake" has caused our socialized losses that we pay for.

I have no sympathy for your mindset.

 

 

Know how many people I voted for supported the bailouts? None, zero, nada. I believe in sink or swim. My economic theory leads me to say let them fail. There is no such thing as "too big to fail". How many people that you voted for and will continue to vote for supported the bailouts? I bet damn near every one.

 

You are a walking example. You vote for the people who cause the problem, then blame everyone who has money.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


EXC
atheist
EXC's picture
Posts: 3139
Joined: 2008-01-17
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote: THE RICH

Brian37 wrote:

 

THE RICH CAUSED THIS PERIOD! People like you voted long term that allowed the look the other way policies that caused the auction of our government.

 

When the prices of homes were skyrocketing, what class of people were clamoring for the government to make no-down or low-down mortgages available? What group of people pressured Washington to make credit easy? What group of people continue to pressure for more government spending while we're $15T in debt?

Will you ever get that there are greedy rich and greedy poor?

You're basic politics is 'the rich steal from the poor, therefore the poor need us government to steal from the rich'. Congratulations, you've become what you hate.

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


Sage_Override
atheistBlogger
Sage_Override's picture
Posts: 582
Joined: 2008-10-14
User is offlineOffline
Until we get off our

Until we get off our collective asses and create solutions that the rich can't argue with, where we have the upper hand over them instead of the other way around, we'll be deadlocked with these financial misunderstandings, this economic jargon that has permeated the English language for far too long and the disorientation that we are separate from each other.  That divide and conquer mentality is what gives us this fear about matters that shouldn't pertain to a modern society where technology should be reigning supreme.  

 

Argue about "ghetto" this and "bail out" that or even refer to the health care reform or foreign policies; it means shit, boys and girls.  Just a facade.  We're all being fucked by those that laugh when we try to talk about the issues that these pricks created in the first place and know damn well there's no solution to what they have placed into the populace, watched their seeds grow and now sit back and watch us slowly destroy each other. 

 

Anything involving money (conversations, debates, policies, etc.) can only lead to one outcome; futility.

"When the majority believes in what is false, the truth becomes a quest." - Me


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 10687
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
It doesn't work that way

It doesn't work that way when the top of the food chain does everything it can to stop you.
Regardless of what you say, IT ISN'T that easy. Capital is required to make capital, and your best suggestion is to meet people, which is neither easy to accomplish nor will necessarily mean something. I could spend all year trying and accomplish 0, then winter hits and I wasted all my money and time on gambles instead of food and shelter, which is all I can afford.
If I lose my home, I die. Living in a car or shed isn't an option save for a few months a year.

All while some asshole makes a mint while lazing around a golf course throwing money at politicians to keep the min wage low, education poor, and increase police on the streets.

Fuck him. He never earned it. 90%+ of these dicks inherited their wealth, and I say we take our earnings back. Over their corpses if necessary. It will be. It always has been.
They won't be able to blame us anymore, and we'll have done what we needed to in order to survive.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


jcgadfly
SuperfanBronze Member
Posts: 6789
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
 "Will you ever get that

 "Will you ever get that there are greedy rich and greedy poor?"

Greedy poor - have nothing and want something.

Greedy rich - have much and want more.

They're exactly the same.

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13663
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
jcgadfly wrote: "Will you

jcgadfly wrote:

 "Will you ever get that there are greedy rich and greedy poor?"

Greedy poor - have nothing and want something.

Greedy rich - have much and want more.

They're exactly the same.

 

With one exception. One has more money and power than the other.

Recognizing that humans have self interests does not mean we have to pit each other against each other economically.

But money seems to be the undue factor in both cases.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13663
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Quote: I believe in sink or

Quote:
I believe in sink or swim.

No you don't.  Your Dirty Harry bluster to life is just your own testosterone.

After telling me that poor people like me have the emergency room is good enough, why even that? If it is all sink or swim why not leave me to die on the street because i didn't manage to reach your pay scale? Why even scrape my mangled flee infested, ghetto body off the street and give me "sink or swim" emergency room, you and I don't want to be a default to medical care?

You don't believe in sink or swim. I would hope you are not that heartless to let me die on the street because am poor. You know that is not the case, so drop that bullshit argument.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


EXC
atheist
EXC's picture
Posts: 3139
Joined: 2008-01-17
User is offlineOffline
jcgadfly wrote:Greedy poor -

jcgadfly wrote:

Greedy poor - have nothing and want something.

No. They have time, they have opprotunities. All they do is waste them on their own pity party and blame. Just as a greedy rich person never has enough money, they never have enough excuses.

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


Beyond Saving
Silver Member
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 4565
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote:Quote: I

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
I believe in sink or swim.

No you don't.  Your Dirty Harry bluster to life is just your own testosterone.

After telling me that poor people like me have the emergency room is good enough, why even that? If it is all sink or swim why not leave me to die on the street because i didn't manage to reach your pay scale? Why even scrape my mangled flee infested, ghetto body off the street and give me "sink or swim" emergency room, you and I don't want to be a default to medical care?

You don't believe in sink or swim. I would hope you are not that heartless to let me die on the street because am poor. You know that is not the case, so drop that bullshit argument.

 

 

There is a huge distinction between what I do in my personal life and what I believe government should do. While I would willingly help out a person I believed was in dire straights, it is not governments role to do so. I also fuck my girlfriend, and would not accept the government sending someone to do that on my behalf. We are not talking about what I do or do not do, we are talking about what government should do or not do. Just because government doesn't do something, does not mean that it goes undone. Government is not a magical solution to every problem and in practice, often makes the problem worse.

 

And yes, if you find yourself in a position where you are relying on charity, then I believe you are not in a position to be demanding. You should be thankful for what people willingly give you rather than pulling a gun on them and demanding more. That particular bit of your mentality I will never understand. You are so fucking greedy and self centered that you think whatever issues you have are sooooo important that other people should be forced to give to you regardless of whether you offer anything in return, instead of being appreciative for any help and support that is offered.

 

Newsflash, you live a pretty damn comfortable life compared to the vast majority of the world's population. Your particular problems aren't that important to me. So yeah, if something unfortunate happens go to the emergency room. They will see to it you survive to the best of their ability. If you want more than that, you should probably start looking for a higher paying job or work a second one since your hours have been cut. I can think of many people I'd rather give money to other than you and they won't insult me or demand more.

 

All I desire is for the government to leave me alone and leave me with as many of my resources as possible so I can put those resources towards more production thereby creating more real wealth in my little corner of the country. What do you want? The government to take resources from me and give them to you and other people like you for health or education or whatever the issue of the day is. Yet you call me greedy.

 

Why? I have my money, given to me voluntarily by my customers because they received something from me that they determined was worth the value they gave me. I give them something of value and they give me money. And I just want to be the one who decides where that money goes, whether it goes to someone else who provides me something of value, or if I decide to be generous and just give it away (which also provides me something of value). 

 

What do you give me of value when you take my money to pay for your healthcare? What do I get in return? Nothing. You want something without giving anything else in return. Who is more greedy, the person who offers something of value in exchange for money or the person who simply demands money without offering anything in exchange? I consider the latter person greedy, the amounts of money involved in either transaction is irrelevant. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


Beyond Saving
Silver Member
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 4565
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is offlineOffline
Vastet wrote:It doesn't work

Vastet wrote:
It doesn't work that way when the top of the food chain does everything it can to stop you. Regardless of what you say, IT ISN'T that easy. Capital is required to make capital, and your best suggestion is to meet people, which is neither easy to accomplish nor will necessarily mean something. I could spend all year trying and accomplish 0, then winter hits and I wasted all my money and time on gambles instead of food and shelter, which is all I can afford. If I lose my home, I die. Living in a car or shed isn't an option save for a few months a year. All while some asshole makes a mint while lazing around a golf course throwing money at politicians to keep the min wage low, education poor, and increase police on the streets. Fuck him. He never earned it. 90%+ of these dicks inherited their wealth, and I say we take our earnings back. Over their corpses if necessary. It will be. It always has been. They won't be able to blame us anymore, and we'll have done what we needed to in order to survive.

 

Whoever said it was easy? Wasn't easy for me to get where I am today. If it was, people like me would't be so irritated when everyone tries to take what we earned. You have to take a risk to start a business and you risk losing everything. Those of us who took the gamble reap the rewards when things work out. We also suffer for the failures. 

 

And once again you throw out a random fact that is demonstrably wrong. 90% of rich people did not inherit their wealth. Indeed, the trend is that those who inherit get more poor over time. Some businesses go for a couple of generations, but usually they fall by the wayside. Rockefellar owned 20% of the US economy, while the family is still wealthy, they are nowhere near as wealthy as they were in the Standard Oil days. If you look at the list of the 400 richest people, you will see that many came from middle class beginnings. In the top 20 the only ones that really inherited it are the Koch brothers and the Waltons. The former have dramatically increased their fathers wealth while I believe the Walton fortunate is smaller than it was when Sam Walton died at least when inflation is factored in. Not to say that inheriting large sums of money isn't a huge leg up. It certainly is. But it is hardly an excuse for you being unable to get there if that is your goal.

 

And in what way are any of those earnings "ours". What did you do to earn that money? Did Walmart send a thug to your door to take your money or force you into their store? Funny, my local Walmart doesn't have those. They just have an old lady who says "Hi welcome to Walmart". Hardly something worth killing people over.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13663
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
EXC wrote:jcgadfly

EXC wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Greedy poor - have nothing and want something.

No. They have time, they have opprotunities. All they do is waste them on their own pity party and blame. Just as a greedy rich person never has enough money, they never have enough excuses.

Ok, then try doing their work along with what you do right now. Otherwise don't bitch that there are people willing to do what you don't want to do.

Seriously, if you think people like me are such losers, next time you go into a Wal Mart or Micky Ds tell the person behind the counter they are a piece of shit just wanting a "pity party". I dare you.

Your private insurance should pay for the emergency room visit, which you should be happy for since you don't want people getting a free ride.

 The middle class and poor are not lazy and I am tired of that bullshit argument.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13663
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Quote:Whoever said it was

Quote:
Whoever said it was easy? Wasn't easy for me to get where I am today.

Oh crap, I am sooooooooooooooo sorry to demean your accomplishments. Well, what I meant to say is "NO ONE WAS DOING THAT!"

All I am saying is get the fuck off your stupid script thinking. I think it is great that you have what you have if that is what you want. But you do the same stupid fucking shit theists do in projecting themselves on others and worse, an entire economy full of diverse people.

You are as dogmatic about economics as a Jerry Falwell was with Jesus.

You are not special and no one wants a pity party. But we DO have a pay gap and money monopoly on politics that IS screwing all of us. You are just to dense to see that if this keeps up it will affect you as well.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


EXC
atheist
EXC's picture
Posts: 3139
Joined: 2008-01-17
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote:Ok, then try

Brian37 wrote:

Ok, then try doing their work along with what you do right now. Otherwise don't bitch that there are people willing to do what you don't want to do.

I did that. I worked as a janitor and in hot factory in the summer. I didn't care for it, mainly because of teh boredom. But I saw some people prefered that over learning anything technically complicated. A lot of the factory workers were offered training for technical jobs and management by the employer, few of them took up the offer. Most of them learned to be content with manual labor jobs and didn't want to move up in the world. Their big mistake was thinking they had a permentent job and wages wouldn't stagnate. So a lot of these jobs were automated or moved to other places were there was cheaper labor/fewer unions.

 

 

Brian37 wrote:

Seriously, if you think people like me are such losers, next time you go into a Wal Mart or Micky Ds tell the person behind the counter they are a piece of shit just wanting a "pity party". I dare you.

I don't know any of these peoples' life stories, and what do I have to gain from it anyways. If you are a loser, it's because you don't take advantage of opprotunities and would rather always blame others and look for a handout from rich people that aren't going to help you anyways.

Brian37 wrote:

Your private insurance should pay for the emergency room visit, which you should be happy for since you don't want people getting a free ride.

What the government should do is offer people medical insurance while they complete job training programs. Then after people get a job they can pay for it themselves. If you'd rather live in a tent and blame the "1%", then yes let people die in street.

If you're so concerned that everyone has good medical care, why don't you train to become a nurse? What is stopping you? Why does everyone else have to solve the healthcare crisis but not you?

 

Brian37 wrote:

The middle class and poor are not lazy and I am tired of that bullshit argument. 

Explain why all these factory workers wouldn't take advantge of free training and college by their employer. Why don't the OWS protesters get out of their tents, get a job and take night classes?

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13663
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Quote:Most of them learned

Quote:
Most of them learned to be content with manual labor jobs and didn't want to move up in the world.

That was only one portion the entire population you dealt with at the time. Still does not change that they are needed. Still does not mean they should be treated like shit because they don't move up.

EVERYONE is needed. And since life is not a script we should not devalue those who don't have what we have.

My only issues are cost of living, pay gap and health care and education.

Do your thing, be happy with your life. Just don't project your script of how you think life should go on others.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13663
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Quote:Explain why all these

Quote:

Explain why all these factory workers wouldn't take advantge of free training and college by their employer. Why don't the OWS protesters get out of their tents, get a job and take night classes?

Lets keep thinking like that. Lets get to the point where the poor have to work 40 1 hour jobs. Who needs a middle class. The poor and middle class are lazy fucks.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 10687
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
People like you are the

People like you are the minority of a minority. The vast majority of rich people inherited their money, doing nothing to earn it.

And most small business owners are subject to the same problems the workers are. The rich have monopolised commerce to the point most owners have little more than their employees.

If it were demonstrably wrong, you'd have demonstrated it. You didn't.

I produced the products they got rich on. I had no choice but to take shitty wages if I wanted to eat and have a place to live. And while I did more than 90% of the work and made them tens of thousands of dollars, I got less than 1% of the money I made.

I am the majority of the entire population. I WILL take whats mine, just like the French did when they revolted. It's only a matter of time.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13663
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Vastet wrote:People like you

Vastet wrote:
People like you are the minority of a minority. The vast majority of rich people inherited their money, doing nothing to earn it. And most small business owners are subject to the same problems the workers are. The rich have monopolised commerce to the point most owners have little more than their employees. If it were demonstrably wrong, you'd have demonstrated it. You didn't. I produced the products they got rich on. I had no choice but to take shitty wages if I wanted to eat and have a place to live. And while I did more than 90% of the work and made them tens of thousands of dollars, I got less than 1% of the money I made. I am the majority of the entire population. I WILL take whats mine, just like the French did when they revolted. It's only a matter of time.

To Vaset and Beyond.

Vaset's reaction is NATURAL even on an evolutionary scale. If an alpha male dominates to the point where resources are monopolized the subordinates will react.

Having said that Vaset. I DO NOT  want to end up with what the French did in Napoleon.

I am totally with you that our current economy seeks to mimic the sweat shops of India and China. But I am not with you that because abuse of power because of money that we should scrap private business ownership.

You said it yourself and it explains Beyond's mentality. Beyond is like the moderate Muslim who will default to siding with the nutcases because they are both Muslim.  He sides with big business because he is a business owner. He is totally ignorant to what money is doing to all of us.

Monopolies of power are what Napoleon had. Monopolies of power are what Beyond unwittingly supports because of script thinking. Life is never either/or. I am for keeping the private sector. I just want checks and balances on it like we have with or politicians. Neither you or I would want to live under Napoleon. I do not think we have to become Cuba to correct the horrible mentality Beyond has.

Address the  following things and Beyond and I and you can all be happy.

1. Pay gap.

2. Cost of living

3 Health care

4. Education.

Where we disagree is HOW to do that. But if we do fix all that we won't be at each others throats.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 10687
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
I'd rather do without

I'd rather do without violence too, but they aren't listening, and history shows they won't listen. Which leaves only violent uprising as an option. The rich never give up on greed until their heads start rolling. It's probably going to be repeated as long as humans exist.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13663
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Vastet wrote:I'd rather do

Vastet wrote:
I'd rather do without violence too, but they aren't listening, and history shows they won't listen. Which leaves only violent uprising as an option. The rich never give up on greed until their heads start rolling. It's probably going to be repeated as long as humans exist.

Vaset, I do not think we need to get to that point. I do think people are listening, the protesters in the streets should show that.

Plus, the crap Beyond spewed caused the Great Depression and we got through that. Those people had it far worse then we do now.

All we need to do is keep raising our voices. It is working and it will take time. Just like the atheist movement. I can remember the difference between 10 years ago and today.

I don't think we need to fall for the same fear Beyond does in clinging to his bad ideas.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 10687
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
The protests are the first

The protests are the first step in an uprising. Rather than showing the rich are listening, it shows they aren't.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Beyond Saving
Silver Member
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 4565
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote:Address the 

Brian37 wrote:

Address the  following things and Beyond and I and you can all be happy.

1. Pay gap.

2. Cost of living

3 Health care

4. Education.

Where we disagree is HOW to do that. But if we do fix all that we won't be at each others throats.

 

 

1. I do so every day. I pay people therefore reducing the money I have and increasing the money they have. Of course, when I give money to someone who has more money than me I'm actually increasing the pay gap..... oh well. Why is the pay gap so important? Do you deny that you could make more money IF you wanted to?

 

2. Walmart addresses that. It is precisely the "race to the bottom", the large corporations and outsourcing that makes most of what you buy so cheap. In Mexico it costs $35 for a can of coffee. Keep in mind that most Mexicans outside of drug cartels live on less than what you make. It is everything you bitch about that leads the US to having one of the lowest cost of livings relative to income in the world.

 

3. Force anyone who has money to pay for their own healthcare. Let charity take care of the rest. Get rid of the government regulations that drive up costs and reduce competition like laws that prevent you from buying health insurance across state lines.

 

4. I'm trying to educate but the ignorance is staggering. Really? Comparing modern economies to pre-revolution France? Claiming laissez faire economics led to the great depression?!? Comparing laissez faire economics to the economies of China and India? (as if the economies of China & India are even the same) Saying 90% of the wealthy inherited their wealth? Claiming that money is made primarily through luck? Claiming our government could "easily" pay for universal healthcare when it can't cover its current bills? Claiming that laissez faire economics is what we have been doing in our country the last 30 years? Really, you guys make up random shit, state it as fact then refuse to provide sources when questioned directly.

 

Obviously our free public education system has failed in a spectacular fashion. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 10687
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
Unsupported assertions are

Unsupported assertions are your specialty. Whereas my comments are all verifiable through the internet, and you haven't invalidated a single thing I've said.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Beyond Saving
Silver Member
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 4565
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is offlineOffline
Vastet wrote:Unsupported

Vastet wrote:

Unsupported assertions are your specialty. Whereas my comments are all verifiable through the internet, and you haven't invalidated a single thing I've said.

Go through the Forbes 400 and show me the 90%. I did the top 20 for you. You have the two Koch's and three Waltons. 2+3=5 5/20 is 25% no where near 90%. I can't be bothered to go through the rest of the list since you obviously are not interested in reality. And since you are the one who made an affirmative assertion it is your place to back it up with evidence.

 

If you want some reality you could look at the Federal Reserve report made by Professor Wolff a few years ago where it was determined that approximately 10% of the top 1%'s money was inherited. I looked it up once and provided the link on this site. Obviously, you ignored it so I won't waste my time again.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13663
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
All Hail our economic lord

All Hail our economic lord Beyond.

Our money

Who art invested

Hollowed by thy name

Thy monopoly come

On Wall Street as it is

In Main Street

Give no one mercey

As no one showed you mercy

Forgive no one

And throw them in the garbage

Unless they make what you make

 

Pontificate all you want Beyond, the world has woken up and you are behind the times.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Burnedout
Posts: 165
Joined: 2007-05-14
User is offlineOffline
Beyond Saving

Beyond Saving wrote:

 

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
The ghetto mentality

The only one between the two of us who has a "ghetto mentality" is you.

Thats how drug dealers think. That is how gang members think. As long as they get what they want, fuck everyone else.

If "every man for themselves" is your mentality your mindset fits that "ghetto mentality", not mine.

Again, Germany has janitors and dish washers too. But they have less of a pay gap and far better education and less of a crime rate. WHY? Because their government and their top money makers care and build and the workers are treated as important, not trash like you treat the poor.

What scares you? That the middle class and working poor are finally saying enough? Are you scared that if more people get educations you wont be able to treat them like shit?

YOU are the problem, not the middle class and poor. YOU and your selfish attitude that as long as you make money you have no duty or loyalty to the community you live in. THAT is what creates ghettos.

Keep it up, maybe we can have shanty towns and mountains covered in trash just like Tijuana. It would be fantastic if the entire nation looked like that.

YOU are the one setting the standards low and you are too deluded to realize it. You are merely perpetuating the global economic race to the bottom.

 

By ghetto mentality I meant the type of thinking that permeates people who are unable to get themselves out of it. Generally, it is the attitude that they are unable to earn more money, unable to own part of the means of production and unable to improve their personal lives. Instead of looking at what they are doing and trying things differently they point the finger at others. Namely, those who have succeeded. They believe that success in capitalism is based mainly on exploiting/taking advantage of others. So if their life sucks, it is because someone exploited them. Since they believe it is impossible to improve their lot in life, they don't try. You and your ideology supports that type of thinking.

 

When I tell people with ghetto mentality what things they could do to succeed they usually respond by declaring me delusional or say "its not that easy" or "you don't know what you're talking about". I don't know why people resist advice so much. People on this site have routinely asserted "you don't understand what it is like" etc. Yeah, I know what its like not having enough money for food. Especially when you are too proud/stubborn to get government aid. I ate my share of ramen. Once a week I went to a church that had a charity dinner. I remember having a romantic candle lit dinner on a park bench eating Wendy's as an anniversary dinner with my girlfriend. I have been at both ends of the tax bracket. About the only thing that I have no experience with is having kids to take care of. Which I admit would have been a fucking nightmare back then. 

 

Yet while those with the ghetto mentality tell me I have no clue what its like to live on an income I have in fact lived on, they have all sorts of advice on how to run a business even though they never ran one. It is kind of like an Amish telling you how to drive a car. If you think the pay gap is a problem, I can tell you specific things you can do to increase your own income and therefore decrease the pay gap. If you refuse to do those things, then you really only have yourself to blame. Those with the ghetto mentality will refuse to accept that they could increase their income.

 

This mentality is strong and seems to be spreading to much of the lower middle class as well. When I ask people specifically, "what prevents you from making more money" I rarely get an answer at all. If I do get an answer it is some made up problem like "it takes money to make money" or "I don't have the training". When I offer a solution to those problems, it is almost always rejected as "impossible" even if I point out specific examples of people who did what I am suggesting. Obviously those people got "lucky". Well the only way to get "lucky" and shoot a hoop playing basketball is to throw the damn ball. If you never throw the ball, you don't have a basis for bitching about never making a basket.

 

You are right that it is about attitude. Those with ghetto mentality will always have the attitude that every problem is someone else's fault and a reason to not try. Those with entrepreneur mentality look at every problem as a temporary obstacle and find ways around it. When someone with the ghetto mentality fails in an endeavor, they look at it as evidence they were doomed from the start. People with ghetto mentality are pessimistic and use any hardship as an excuse to give up. When they fail, they point the finger and say "I couldn't help it" or "there is nothing I could do". 

 

When someone with entrepreneur mentality fails, they look at it as a learning experience and try again. People who are financially successful almost always have confidence, optimism and persistence, even in the face of unexpected disasters. They accept their failures as lessons and move on. Externally caused hardships are viewed as obstacles that will be overcome. They have a clear and definite vision of what they want to achieve and they find a way to get there. If any business venture I am involved in fails, I don't run around pointing fingers. Even if external parties are involved, I look at the decisions I made and consider what I could have done differently. 

 

If you are sitting around blaming others for your financial situation, you have ghetto mentality. If you are one of those that tells people who dare to dream of great things that they need to be "realistic" about their expectations, you are part of the culture that is pushing ghetto mentality. If you aren't happy with your income level or career or employer, you can change it. You can work for someone else. I've had my share of shitty employers. It was a running joke among those who knew me that I had a new job every pay period. Every time I saw someone I hadn't seen for awhile they would ask "So what job are you doing now?" 

 

The mentality that makes people look at employers as if they have so much power, like they are slave owners and your the slave. It doesn't make sense to me. And if people feel that way, I don't know why the continue going to work. I would rather live on very little money than put up with feeling enslaved/exploited by an employer. You are giving an employer your most valuable asset- time. Don't give it to them lightly. Demand the money and respect you believe your time is worth, and if you don't get it, go elsewhere. If no one is offering you a job, create your own. 

 

 

I agree 100% with you.  I have lived on piss poor wages in my life.  I finally got into business for myself back in 2000.  It has not always been easy but I never regret it.  You are right, no obstacle is a permanent one and it is quite temporary and with a reasonable ability to think and even a mildly  positive attitude can be over come.  Some people want to sit around and wait for people to tell them what to do.  That is a slave mentality.  When I got into business for myself, I did it on less than $300.  I don't get rich but I do make a living and I do it on my terms and I work for what I call the 'Holy Trinity'....ME, MYSELF, and I.  I will never go back to working for someone else if I have any say about it. 


Gauche
atheist
Gauche's picture
Posts: 1565
Joined: 2007-01-18
User is offlineOffline
They say there's no pride

They say there's no pride like that of a beggar grown rich. I wouldn't try to minimize the accomplishments of anyone who gains financial independence through hard work. With that said however, I think it's a mistake to let that experience lead to a belief that resources are distributed based on merit.

We can identify a variety of non-merit factors that suppress the effects of merit or provide advantages beyond those that exist due to merit. Even if that were not possible the highly skewed distribution of wealth would lead us to believe that merit is not distributed normally in the population.

And it's from there that we come to the belief that poor people are poor because of poor thinking or poor attitude since the reality of the current distribution and the factors involved would seem to allow no other argument to salvage the idea of meritocracy. One valid question is if people really have these anti-success values anyway or do they adjust their ambitions according to realistic assessments of their more limited opportunities.

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 10687
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
100 people do not represent

100 people do not represent 90% of the worlds wealth. 1000 people don't. So your evidence is reduced to commentary on a fraction of the rich, and inapplicable.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Beyond Saving
Silver Member
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 4565
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is offlineOffline
Vastet wrote:100 people do

Vastet wrote:
100 people do not represent 90% of the worlds wealth. 1000 people don't. So your evidence is reduced to commentary on a fraction of the rich, and inapplicable.

 

What does that have to do with anything? About 500 billion people have 90% of the worlds wealth (most likely you are part of that 500 billion simply because you live in Canada). So are you saying that 500 billion people only have anything because 90% of them inherited all their wealth? I thought we were talking solely first world economies, not the entire world. From the worlds perspective, you sir are rich and it really was luck in that you happened to be born in the right country.

 

So exactly 90% of which group inherited everything? Fiddle with the numbers however you want, I doubt you could get close to the number you asserted. If you try real hard, you might be able to get to 30-40% by being generous as to what counts as inherited and not doing anything to earn it. For example, if someone inherits a modest sized family business and turns it into a multi-billion dollar corporation would you say they inherited all their money? I wouldn't. Certainly their inheritance gave them a big head start, but tons of people inherit family businesses and never make them that successful. 

 

So clarify for me exactly 90% of which group inherited all their money and never did anything to earn it. Exactly which group is it that you are so eager to murder because you think they somehow cheated you? 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


Beyond Saving
Silver Member
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 4565
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is offlineOffline
Gauche wrote:We can identify

Gauche wrote:

We can identify a variety of non-merit factors that suppress the effects of merit or provide advantages beyond those that exist due to merit. Even if that were not possible the highly skewed distribution of wealth would lead us to believe that merit is not distributed normally in the population.

No doubt. Certain people have advantages over others whether it is receiving a large inheritance, a better education as a child, having a supportive family, being more intelligent etc. But simply because you don't have those advantages doesn't mean you are dead in the water and powerless. And there are probably a ton of people who would simply be incapable of being Bill Gates, they just aren't smart enough. But you don't have to be Bill Gates and most people really don't want to be. I believe it is very possible for pretty much everyone without a severe mental handicap to make it solidly in the middle class, be able to pay for their basic needs and live a comfortable life while still saving some of their money for the future.

 

Gauche wrote:

And it's from there that we come to the belief that poor people are poor because of poor thinking or poor attitude since the reality of the current distribution and the factors involved would seem to allow no other argument to salvage the idea of meritocracy. One valid question is if people really have these anti-success values anyway or do they adjust their ambitions according to realistic assessments of their more limited opportunities.

A valid question. I draw my conclusion because I see people simply refuse to try. Vastet for example, I offered specific advice to him on where to go, on which date, and who to talk to in order to have a shot at getting funding for a start-up business. I freely offer similar advice to people all the time. The vast majority of people I talk to reject it out of hand.  I might not be able to guarantee that you will succeed in a given endeavor, but I can guarantee that if you don't try, you will never succeed. Most people who sit around bitching and have what I'm calling "ghetto mentality" never try. If I saw them trying, I would probably have more sympathy for them. But I have worked in too many places where management positions open and no one inside the company even applies and it is extremely rare to see a job applicant who has a job and is trying to improve their career. People become complacent where they are, and only move forward when circumstances force them to. Is it any wonder that those who constantly push themselves have more lucrative careers?

 

But when someone like Brian freely states that he isn't interested in working a different job or even a different employer while constantly bitching about not being paid enough, I have no sympathy. If you keep doing the same thing day in and day out, your financial situation is going to stay remarkably the same. If you are happy with that, great. If you are not happy, you should try doing something else, and I would think that listening to the advice of those who were successful at whatever you are trying to do would be a good start. If you want to make more than minimum wage, don't work in a minimum wage field.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


Burnedout
Posts: 165
Joined: 2007-05-14
User is offlineOffline
There is a big question here

There is a big question here that nobody appears to have answered in all this back and forth.   How do you define wealth?  How is wealth produced?  Before there is even an argument, you need to define it or everyone has an idea in their head that may or may not be what everyone else is defining it to themselves.  At that point, you are just pissing in the wind to each other. 


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 10687
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
First I'll assume you meant

First I'll assume you meant million.
Second that's not true. My net worth is negative, which puts lots of people in third world countries ahead of me at this time.
Third, hundreds of millions in the west are in my exact shoes, further deflating your ridiculous hypothesis.
Fourth, you've still provided nothing to support your claims.
Fifth, I'm not eager to murder anyone. But my survival instinct overrides my ethics, so I am willing. So are others. And the numbers grow daily.
Finally, I reject nothing out of hand. I analyzed and calculated that your suggestions are equal to suggesting I play the lottery.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Rich Woods
Rational VIP!
Rich Woods's picture
Posts: 868
Joined: 2008-02-06
User is offlineOffline
Without reading this entire

Without reading this entire thread, because frankly, I'd rather chew tinfoil...I'll toss in this tidbit.... There is a book titled "Rich Dad, Poor Dad", which outlines the approach to entreprenuership that wealthy parents empart to their children, and that working class and poverty stricken parents tend not to provide.... There are many socio/economic reasons for this, the first of which is knowledge... but even so, a pedestrian understanding of how money works often accords a certain "mentality" where is concerns how those *with* money are viewed....

For instance, I have a very good friend who is worth a whole lot of money (I couldn't even take a good guess) ... One day a mutual aquaintence of ours asked him to go into business with him... What do you have in Mind?, my wealthy friend asked.... "I thought you could tell me, You're the one with all the connections." my aquaintence replied... "Well what do you have to invest"?.... "Not Much, but I was hoping that you could help turn it into more"

The term I've invented for this kind of business approach is "pizza man".... most people don't understand finance beyond "I Make a Pizza...You give me a dollar, and I'll give you a slice"...and personally, I believe that he controlling interests in this country want it that way... they don't want you to know the rules, so its not taught in schools.... However, since life is not fair, its incumbant upon all of us to be responsible for what we know... The money --if you have the balls-- will follow. 


Lion IRC
Theist
Lion IRC's picture
Posts: 158
Joined: 2011-03-16
User is offlineOffline
Henry Bloget

 

  • It’s headed…”What The Wall Street Protesters Are So Angry About” but a better title would be …...”The stuff Occupy Protesters aren’t articulate enough (or educated sufficiently) to explain…”
 
  • It’s a short slide presentation of charts. Pretty interesting.
 http://www.businessinsider.com/what-wall-street-protesters-are-so-angry-about-2011-10#lets-start-with-the-obvious-unemployment-three-years-after-the-financial-crisis-the-unemployment-rate-is-still-at-the-highest-level-since-the-great-depression-except-for-a-brief-blip-in-the-early-1980s-1

 


Lion IRC
Theist
Lion IRC's picture
Posts: 158
Joined: 2011-03-16
User is offlineOffline
Grapes of Wrath

Look at slide 16

The Tent City guy.

Anyone read The Grapes of Wrath?


Lion IRC
Theist
Lion IRC's picture
Posts: 158
Joined: 2011-03-16
User is offlineOffline
"There is a sorrow here that weeping cannot symbolize.”

“…And the failure hangs over the State like a great sorrow.

The works of the roots of the vines, of the trees, must be destroyed to keep up the price, and this is the saddest, bitterest thing of all. Carloads of oranges dumped on the ground.

The people came for miles to take the fruit, but this could not be. How would they buy oranges at twenty cents a dozen if they could drive out and pick them up?

And men with hoses squirt kerosene on the oranges, and they are angry at the crime, angry at the people who have come to take the fruit. A million people hungry, needing the fruit—and kerosene sprayed over the golden mountains.

And the smell of rot fills the country. Burn coffee for fuel in the ships. Burn corn to keep warm, it makes a hot fire. Dump potatoes in the rivers and place guards along the banks to keep the hungry people from fishing them out. Slaughter the pigs and bury them, and let the putrescence drip down into the earth.


There is a crime here that goes beyond denunciation. There is a sorrow here that weeping cannot symbolize.

The Grapes of Wrath - John Steinbeck

Viking Press 1939
 

 

 


Lion IRC
Theist
Lion IRC's picture
Posts: 158
Joined: 2011-03-16
User is offlineOffline
In the souls of the people

...In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage."


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13663
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Rich Woods wrote:Without

Rich Woods wrote:

Without reading this entire thread, because frankly, I'd rather chew tinfoil...I'll toss in this tidbit.... There is a book titled "Rich Dad, Poor Dad", which outlines the approach to entreprenuership that wealthy parents empart to their children, and that working class and poverty stricken parents tend not to provide.... There are many socio/economic reasons for this, the first of which is knowledge... but even so, a pedestrian understanding of how money works often accords a certain "mentality" where is concerns how those *with* money are viewed....

For instance, I have a very good friend who is worth a whole lot of money (I couldn't even take a good guess) ... One day a mutual aquaintence of ours asked him to go into business with him... What do you have in Mind?, my wealthy friend asked.... "I thought you could tell me, You're the one with all the connections." my aquaintence replied... "Well what do you have to invest"?.... "Not Much, but I was hoping that you could help turn it into more"

The term I've invented for this kind of business approach is "pizza man".... most people don't understand finance beyond "I Make a Pizza...You give me a dollar, and I'll give you a slice"...and personally, I believe that he controlling interests in this country want it that way... they don't want you to know the rules, so its not taught in schools.... However, since life is not fair, its incumbant upon all of us to be responsible for what we know... The money --if you have the balls-- will follow. 

It is not as simple as that. Life is a range and people are a range. Economics cannot be treated like a checkbook. It is as much about climate, psychology, what other countries are doing, evironmental disasters, natural disasters, crime. ect ect ect.

And the simple fact that the higher up you go the more competition and fewer spots. The best most people achieve is a basic stability.

Human individuals do not exist in a vacuum and cannot physically do everything by themselves. You cant clean your house without buying cleaning products that someone else made. You also cannot use one cleaning product on all the things you want to clean. Economics is much the same. It has to take into account the range of the population and it also has to take into account that actions can happen beyond one's own control that affect others.

Everyone should do what they want in life and everyone should do the best they can. But not everyone will become rich and some people will stay poor. The best thing to do is decrease the gap so it provides more stability.

The NFL employees this socialistic attitude.  They split their profits in a ratio to some degree. And they also have a salary cap on the players to insure that they have enough money to pay all the players. Now, why is it that socialistic mentality is good for a private company but not a government?

Government does not have to become like Cuba or get rid of the private sector. It could even reduce the size of government if the private sector took more of an attitude towards society like the NFL does with it's teams. But it should institute a better check on income inequality. Just like one NFL team could not give all it's money away to one player.

The point is the money is going up, not down, the charts that show the gap from the 80s to now SHOW that this trend is unhealthy and will even end up affecting those at the top.

Much like if only one NFL team was sucking all the money from the other teams. The tax cuts are one huge problem. Those tax cuts get pilphered out of the needs of the middle class and poor to go to rich politicians to line the pockets of big business CEOs and Shareholders.

Now if the "job creators" were doing such a great job, then why do we have 30 million unemployed an even more, like me, having their hours cut back? There is one reason and one reason only, greed.

The attitude cutting labor first has for far too long been the default. We have lost most of our manufacturing base because of that.

Of course life is not fair, but we don't need to get to the point where we are willing to starve others to make a buck. But that is the trend in this country, and if it continues even those at the top will be affected.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 10687
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
Indeed. That was a great

Indeed. That was a great post Brian.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


EXC
atheist
EXC's picture
Posts: 3139
Joined: 2008-01-17
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote:The NFL

Brian37 wrote:

The NFL employees this socialistic attitude.  They split their profits in a ratio to some degree. And they also have a salary cap on the players to insure that they have enough money to pay all the players. Now, why is it that socialistic mentality is good for a private company but not a government?

Bad analogy. The NFL's product is entertainment, not a football team. People do not pay to watch a single good food team. Otherwise the Packers could charge $300 just to watch a practice. The fans pay to see good entertainment, that requires more than one good team. The NFL is a monopoly, an entertainment conglomerate. I don't remember them sharing with XFL or caring that they went under. The NFL doesn't share revenue with competing conglomerates such as MLB, NBA or Hollywood. The NFL can impose salary caps because it has no direct competitor, so the top stars have to take whatever management tells them or go on strike.

 

Within a private company, there is a contract. You don't work or do what the employer asks you get fired. I don't have a 'right' to a paycheck or any benefits. With socialist governments, there is no contract. You get free medical and welfare just for being conceived. It's just a scam to get something for nothing.

If there was a social contract requiring people to work, study and limit family size, then I could support the government providing benefits for a limited time to those in job training programs. But there is still no political movement supporting this rational agenda. It's just the right wing entitlements and leftist entitlements.

 

BTW, Isn't 'suck for Luck', messed up?

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


Beyond Saving
Silver Member
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 4565
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is offlineOffline
 Not to mention that the

 Not to mention that the NFL is hardly socialist. Tom Brady gets paid more in one year than many players will get their entire career before you even account for the massive amounts he makes doing advertisements and such. Those who sit on 3rd and 4th string often count their salaries in the hundreds of thousands, while the successful stars get multi-millions. 

 

And as EXC pointed out, the NFL is probably the closest thing we have to a MONOPOLY!!!!! in this country. If you want to play football and make any meaningful money you have to go through the NFL and do whatever they tell you. If you want to own a football team, you have to get the permission of the NFL even if the current owners are willing to sell. That's what happened to Rush Limbaugh. 

 

But suppose the NFL decided it was going to be socialist and pay those who do most of the work and take the most punishment (which is obviously the line) at a rate more similar to a star quarterback. It is their choice and I don't have a problem with it. I don't have an issue with socialism per se. If you want to start a company and run it in a socialist manor more power to you. My issue is with force. When you socialize government, you have to forcibly take from those who have what you deem too much and give it to those who have less. If you want to run a socialist company and everyone who works for it is working voluntarily I have no problems with that. If you want to start a nationwide socialist healthcare plan that is voluntary to join, I have no problem. If you want a social security program that is voluntary, no problem.

 

When you come to me with the force of government and tell me I have to participate whether I like it or not, I have a problem. I don't force you to do business with me. You can come or go as you please. I don't force any of my employees to work for me, I offer a wage they agree to accept and they are free to leave at anytime for any reason. My customers can buy from me, or if they feel I don't give them enough value they are free to go elsewhere. The programs you support all require force and the threat of jail time to exist. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


Lion IRC
Theist
Lion IRC's picture
Posts: 158
Joined: 2011-03-16
User is offlineOffline
Vastet wrote:Indeed. That

Vastet wrote:
Indeed. That was a great post Brian.

Yep. A good post makes the typos/grammar slips practically disappear.


Burnedout
Posts: 165
Joined: 2007-05-14
User is offlineOffline
There is a common running

There is a common running fallacy among many.  There is this belief and attitude that the world owes you something.  Where is that written?  Just because you are born, just means you were born.  Simple enough.  The world owes you nothing and what you get out of this world is what you put forth in effort and creativity.  Quit whining and start thinking of ways to do something.  There is another phrase for it....GROWING UP!


FurryCatHerder
Theist
FurryCatHerder's picture
Posts: 1253
Joined: 2007-06-02
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote:That was only

Brian37 wrote:
That was only one portion the entire population you dealt with at the time. Still does not change that they are needed. Still does not mean they should be treated like shit because they don't move up.

EVERYONE is needed. And since life is not a script we should not devalue those who don't have what we have.

My only issues are cost of living, pay gap and health care and education.

Do your thing, be happy with your life. Just don't project your script of how you think life should go on others.

If you ever want to become a Jew, there's an entire religion out there dedicated to the way you think.

The only requirements are you have to be willing to get murdered because you think there is more to life than greed.  Oh, and the funny hat, right-to-left writing, and learning to sing in weird minor keys.  We have great holidays, too.

But seriously -- you sound like a Reform or Reconstructionist Jew so much of the time I =swear= I saw you on Mt. Sinai ...

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


FurryCatHerder
Theist
FurryCatHerder's picture
Posts: 1253
Joined: 2007-06-02
User is offlineOffline
Burnedout wrote:There is a

Burnedout wrote:

There is a common running fallacy among many.  There is this belief and attitude that the world owes you something.  Where is that written?  Just because you are born, just means you were born.  Simple enough.  The world owes you nothing and what you get out of this world is what you put forth in effort and creativity.  Quit whining and start thinking of ways to do something.  There is another phrase for it....GROWING UP!

And there is this other fallacy -- rich people got there on their own.

When I'm in a store and a delivery person is struggling to get the merchanise in the door, before the door whacks them upside the head, I hold the door because without them, there is nothing to buy.  I thank the men who pick up my trash once a week, because without them, my trash would pile up.

The worker ant is no less important that the queen.  No queen, no more workers.  No workers, no food for the queen, no more queen.  The mentality you have is that you can go it alone, or that you got there "alone" somehow.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 10687
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
Burnedout wrote:There is a

Burnedout wrote:

There is a common running fallacy among many.  There is this belief and attitude that the world owes you something.  Where is that written?  Just because you are born, just means you were born.  Simple enough.  The world owes you nothing and what you get out of this world is what you put forth in effort and creativity.  Quit whining and start thinking of ways to do something.  There is another phrase for it....GROWING UP!

The world owes me nothing. The rich thieves, on the other hand, owe me a LOT. I intend to collect.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Burnedout
Posts: 165
Joined: 2007-05-14
User is offlineOffline
FurryCatHerder

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Burnedout wrote:

There is a common running fallacy among many.  There is this belief and attitude that the world owes you something.  Where is that written?  Just because you are born, just means you were born.  Simple enough.  The world owes you nothing and what you get out of this world is what you put forth in effort and creativity.  Quit whining and start thinking of ways to do something.  There is another phrase for it....GROWING UP!

And there is this other fallacy -- rich people got there on their own.

When I'm in a store and a delivery person is struggling to get the merchanise in the door, before the door whacks them upside the head, I hold the door because without them, there is nothing to buy.  I thank the men who pick up my trash once a week, because without them, my trash would pile up.

The worker ant is no less important that the queen.  No queen, no more workers.  No workers, no food for the queen, no more queen.  The mentality you have is that you can go it alone, or that you got there "alone" somehow.

 

Actually, people work together for selfish reasons.  You do a job because you get paid and you agree to get paid that level and you agree to do the work.  That situation is mutually beneficial.  If it is not, sooner or later the relationship ends.  Even a whore gets benefit from her service and her client gets a benefit from it and it is paid for.  We are all whores of some kind, just some are cheaper than others.