There is only one question to answer.

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There is only one question to answer.

We spend a lot of time tossing around questions on biblical (and other scriptural) accuracy. We indulge in rants and raves over literalism vs allegory. We discuss the science pro and con of creationism vs naturalism.

I contend there is only one question that need be answered, one topic for discussion that supersedes the others.

Is there life after death?

Even if god can be shown to exist, or not. Even if Jesus walked the earth or Mohammad chatted with an angel, unless it can be shown that our consciousness survives our mortal demise, none of the rest of it matters. Doctrine, dogma, scripture, morality, history, myth and legend are all moot points.

This is my contention.


There is no life after death.

Who we are, our consciousness, our personalities, our memories arise from and resides in the physical structure of our brains.

Our consciousness et al, can be altered by physical means. Trauma, chemicals or disease can alter our memories and personalities, the way we think and reason. These changes can be permanent.

Since the core of our being can be shown to be changeable by physical means, it is reasonable to state that our consciousness is a physical attribute, a process that ends when its physical matrix, the brain, ceases to function.

There is no known mechanism, no hypothetical mechanism, not even a good conjecture of a mechanism by which the consciousness can exist outside of the brain itself.

When we die, all that we are dies with us.

LC >;-}>


 

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Except for that which we

Except for that which we shared with those around us.

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Great points

Great points LC and Vastet.

Besides, if there were such a thing as life after death, where would we go ?

I wanted to believe in life after death or at least the possibility of it, even after I became an Atheist.

But the complete and total fallacy of Pascal's Wager cured me of this idea.

I once heard Christopher Hitchens, in a lecture before a university, talk about the idea that even if the afterlife was just some sort of energy oneness, that too was nothing more than wishful thinking and really a horrible idea when you ponder it.

I thought about that and it made sense. I have no desire to be just floating around as part of some force for all eternity, anymore than I would have a desire to sit on a cloud, playing a harp and worshipping god forever.

No thanks, I'll take death as the final and dedicate happiness to THIS life.

I find it tragic that a person would live their whole life for a promise after death and neglect this life.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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The only "after life" there

The only "after life" there is are the memories people have of us after we die. The only biological after life there is is what where our atoms go after we decay or get cremated. But as far as some fictitious utopia, there never was one and never will be one. Nature is all there is. When our brains die we die. Life goes on without us. And ultimately the universe will go on without life on this planet.

The utopias humans invent for gods or the after life is merely the anthropomorphic reflection of the human desire to continue.

The fact is individual humans WONT continue, and neither will our species. When our species goes extinct all our myths and gods and fantasies will die with us because there wont be a future generation to sell our myths to.

 

 

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 if there is an afterlife,

 

if there is an afterlife, i wouldn't want it to be any way but this:

 

 


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Works for me...

Ok, you like Gaelic... we can be friends now.

LC >;-}>

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There can be life after

There can be life after death, if Dark Plasma Theory is correct. It claims the possibility of life forms on the level of dark matter, when it concentrates around our or other planets. There is also further evidence from other sources, that this local dark matter sphere participates on our vital processes. If my estimations are correct, we are a double symbiotic organism, half made of normal matter, half of dark matter. And after death of our dense body the counterpart of dark matter might survive for a while.

Why is dark matter considered non-interacting? Because it doesn't interact. At least the 99% of it in the universe, which is plasma, just like our matter. However, in living organisms the situation may be different. If there is a symbiotic body of dark matter around and within us, then there must be some way for the two to interact. That was already demonstrated by Prof. James DeMeo, who succesfully repeated Wilhelm Reich's experiments with modern technology.

There are other theories, like Dr. Philip Benjamin's, that extend this idea to the universe model of multiple string dimensions through axion physics, whatever it is. A string, if it exists, is basically found in every smallest particle. Fortunately, things aren't the same on quantum and macroscopic scale. While the extra string dimensions may be confusing, even infinitesimal and hard to imagine, particles and objects made of them aren't. They should be, at least from our point of view, reasonably macroscopic and 3D. The main difference will be in interaction with our world on the sub-atomic level, or rather lack of it. In other words, a ghost-like matter.

But it is a matter and there is nothing contradictory about it being live and conscious. When we think of life and consciousness on our planet and elsewhere, we must remember, that the "biologic" or maybe even "biogenic" dark matter was here with us all along. We must ask ourselves, if this all would be true and there always way at least ocassional, sporadic interaction of us with the subtle invisible world around us, what sort of cultural notions would it produce? What kinds of teachings, legends, religions and practices would be invented by people, attempting to explore this hidden aspect of reality around us? (minus of course the subsequent eras of superstitions, scams and delusions)

People interested in this theory often lean towards the Hindu notion of multiple subtle worlds and corresponding subtle bodies interpenetrating each other, forming a person. When the dense body dies, the rest may live on and even re-incarnate. Memories usually don't survive that process, unless they're remembered by some of the subtle bodies. But there seems to be some permanence, some rare but obvious cases of continuity between incarnations. Psychiatrist Ian Stevenson did a thorough study of such cases like testimonies and birthmarks. It took 40 years, but the results are worth it. Of course, the results are neatly divided on Hindu and western ethnicities, children, adults, birthmarks and so on. Plus another book on twenty most suggestive cases. Looks like a solid stuff to me. 

 

Whether you find these sources convincing or not (or completely crazy, for some reason), please try to stay serious and point out any errors you see. Maybe it doesn't work with you, but it makes me feel a great curiosity and fascination about our natural material universe, that may after all include life after death and much more. Isn't materialism awesome?

 

 

harleysportster wrote:

I once heard Christopher Hitchens, in a lecture before a university, talk about the idea that even if the afterlife was just some sort of energy oneness, that too was nothing more than wishful thinking and really a horrible idea when you ponder it.

I thought about that and it made sense. I have no desire to be just floating around as part of some force for all eternity, anymore than I would have a desire to sit on a cloud, playing a harp and worshipping god forever.

No thanks, I'll take death as the final and dedicate happiness to THIS life.

I find it tragic that a person would live their whole life for a promise after death and neglect this life. 


Could you point me at this lecture of Christopher Hitchens?
Well, if the afterlife is an amorphous sea of deceased people's energy just floating around, that would be boring. Fortunately, this doesn't seem to be the case, according to the dedicated literature. Robert Allan Monroe, the spontaneous astral traveller described it quite well. He was a technical kind of a guy and his account of how it all works is quite satisfactory. (plus consistent with other sources) Of course, it must be somewhat boring there, why else would people incarnate :P And I assure you, in my all knowledge there is no real Yahweh or any similar character. There are only people who like to worship. 

Anyway, don't think that this worldview makes people neglect their lives. Quite opposite, I really hate repeating lessons and staying behind. If I do my best in this life, the next might be even more interesting. 

 

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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Drowning in the Woo-Woo stream...

Luminon wrote:

There can be life after death, if Dark Plasma Theory is correct. It claims the possibility of life forms on the level of dark matter, when it concentrates around our or other planets. There is also further evidence from other sources, that this local dark matter sphere participates on our vital processes. If my estimations are correct, we are a double symbiotic organism, half made of normal matter, half of dark matter. And after death of our dense body the counterpart of dark matter might survive for a while.

Why is dark matter considered non-interacting? Because it doesn't interact. At least the 99% of it in the universe, which is plasma, just like our matter. However, in living organisms the situation may be different. If there is a symbiotic body of dark matter around and within us, then there must be some way for the two to interact. That was already demonstrated by Prof. James DeMeo, who succesfully repeated Wilhelm Reich's experiments with modern technology.

There are other theories, like Dr. Philip Benjamin's, that extend this idea to the universe model of multiple string dimensions through axion physics, whatever it is. A string, if it exists, is basically found in every smallest particle. Fortunately, things aren't the same on quantum and macroscopic scale. While the extra string dimensions may be confusing, even infinitesimal and hard to imagine, particles and objects made of them aren't. They should be, at least from our point of view, reasonably macroscopic and 3D. The main difference will be in interaction with our world on the sub-atomic level, or rather lack of it. In other words, a ghost-like matter.

But it is a matter and there is nothing contradictory about it being live and conscious. When we think of life and consciousness on our planet and elsewhere, we must remember, that the "biologic" or maybe even "biogenic" dark matter was here with us all along. We must ask ourselves, if this all would be true and there always way at least ocassional, sporadic interaction of us with the subtle invisible world around us, what sort of cultural notions would it produce? What kinds of teachings, legends, religions and practices would be invented by people, attempting to explore this hidden aspect of reality around us? (minus of course the subsequent eras of superstitions, scams and delusions)

People interested in this theory often lean towards the Hindu notion of multiple subtle worlds and corresponding subtle bodies interpenetrating each other, forming a person. When the dense body dies, the rest may live on and even re-incarnate. Memories usually don't survive that process, unless they're remembered by some of the subtle bodies. But there seems to be some permanence, some rare but obvious cases of continuity between incarnations. Psychiatrist Ian Stevenson did a thorough study of such cases like testimonies and birthmarks. It took 40 years, but the results are worth it. Of course, the results are neatly divided on Hindu and western ethnicities, children, adults, birthmarks and so on. Plus another book on twenty most suggestive cases. Looks like a solid stuff to me. 

 

Whether you find these sources convincing or not (or completely crazy, for some reason), please try to stay serious and point out any errors you see. Maybe it doesn't work with you, but it makes me feel a great curiosity and fascination about our natural material universe, that may after all include life after death and much more. Isn't materialism awesome?

 

 

harleysportster wrote:

I once heard Christopher Hitchens, in a lecture before a university, talk about the idea that even if the afterlife was just some sort of energy oneness, that too was nothing more than wishful thinking and really a horrible idea when you ponder it.

I thought about that and it made sense. I have no desire to be just floating around as part of some force for all eternity, anymore than I would have a desire to sit on a cloud, playing a harp and worshipping god forever.

No thanks, I'll take death as the final and dedicate happiness to THIS life.

I find it tragic that a person would live their whole life for a promise after death and neglect this life. 


Could you point me at this lecture of Christopher Hitchens?
Well, if the afterlife is an amorphous sea of deceased people's energy just floating around, that would be boring. Fortunately, this doesn't seem to be the case, according to the dedicated literature. Robert Allan Monroe, the spontaneous astral traveller described it quite well. He was a technical kind of a guy and his account of how it all works is quite satisfactory. (plus consistent with other sources) Of course, it must be somewhat boring there, why else would people incarnate :P And I assure you, in my all knowledge there is no real Yahweh or any similar character. There are only people who like to worship. 

Anyway, don't think that this worldview makes people neglect their lives. Quite opposite, I really hate repeating lessons and staying behind. If I do my best in this life, the next might be even more interesting. 

 

 

First, I gotta say my overall impression is simply "Oh, Bull-Fucking-Shit."

Prof. James DeMeo's 'work'... on the surface appears to be simple new age (rhymes with 'sewage') crap of the type that infests the web. So he continued Wilhelm Reich's work eh? Would that be the Wilhelm Reich who "...  died on November 3, 1957, in the Federal Penitentiary at Lewisburg, Pennsylvania, where he was sent for criminal contempt. The criminal charge was levied because Reich refused to obey an injunction against selling quack medical devices such as the Orgone Accumulator and orgone "shooters," devices which allegedly could collect and distribute orgone energy, thereby making possible the cure for  just about any medical disorder except, perhaps, megalomania and self-delusion."

You can wrap Woo-Woo crap ideas of 'aether' and
'ectoplasm' in pseudoscience, reference string theory and mention dark matter and dark energy, and it remains Bovine Excrement. I'm seldom inclined to be polite about pseudoscientific crap, it offends me.

LC >;-}>

 

Christianity: A disgusting middle eastern blood cult, based in human sacrifice, with sacraments of cannibalism and vampirism, whose highest icon is of a near naked man hanging in torment from a device of torture.


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Louis_Cypher wrote:Luminon

Louis_Cypher wrote:

Luminon wrote:

There can be life after death, if Dark Plasma Theory is correct. It claims the possibility of life forms on the level of dark matter, when it concentrates around our or other planets. There is also further evidence from other sources, that this local dark matter sphere participates on our vital processes. If my estimations are correct, we are a double symbiotic organism, half made of normal matter, half of dark matter. And after death of our dense body the counterpart of dark matter might survive for a while.

Why is dark matter considered non-interacting? Because it doesn't interact. At least the 99% of it in the universe, which is plasma, just like our matter. However, in living organisms the situation may be different. If there is a symbiotic body of dark matter around and within us, then there must be some way for the two to interact. That was already demonstrated by Prof. James DeMeo, who succesfully repeated Wilhelm Reich's experiments with modern technology.

There are other theories, like Dr. Philip Benjamin's, that extend this idea to the universe model of multiple string dimensions through axion physics, whatever it is. A string, if it exists, is basically found in every smallest particle. Fortunately, things aren't the same on quantum and macroscopic scale. While the extra string dimensions may be confusing, even infinitesimal and hard to imagine, particles and objects made of them aren't. They should be, at least from our point of view, reasonably macroscopic and 3D. The main difference will be in interaction with our world on the sub-atomic level, or rather lack of it. In other words, a ghost-like matter.

But it is a matter and there is nothing contradictory about it being live and conscious. When we think of life and consciousness on our planet and elsewhere, we must remember, that the "biologic" or maybe even "biogenic" dark matter was here with us all along. We must ask ourselves, if this all would be true and there always way at least ocassional, sporadic interaction of us with the subtle invisible world around us, what sort of cultural notions would it produce? What kinds of teachings, legends, religions and practices would be invented by people, attempting to explore this hidden aspect of reality around us? (minus of course the subsequent eras of superstitions, scams and delusions)

People interested in this theory often lean towards the Hindu notion of multiple subtle worlds and corresponding subtle bodies interpenetrating each other, forming a person. When the dense body dies, the rest may live on and even re-incarnate. Memories usually don't survive that process, unless they're remembered by some of the subtle bodies. But there seems to be some permanence, some rare but obvious cases of continuity between incarnations. Psychiatrist Ian Stevenson did a thorough study of such cases like testimonies and birthmarks. It took 40 years, but the results are worth it. Of course, the results are neatly divided on Hindu and western ethnicities, children, adults, birthmarks and so on. Plus another book on twenty most suggestive cases. Looks like a solid stuff to me. 

 

Whether you find these sources convincing or not (or completely crazy, for some reason), please try to stay serious and point out any errors you see. Maybe it doesn't work with you, but it makes me feel a great curiosity and fascination about our natural material universe, that may after all include life after death and much more. Isn't materialism awesome?

 

 

harleysportster wrote:

I once heard Christopher Hitchens, in a lecture before a university, talk about the idea that even if the afterlife was just some sort of energy oneness, that too was nothing more than wishful thinking and really a horrible idea when you ponder it.

I thought about that and it made sense. I have no desire to be just floating around as part of some force for all eternity, anymore than I would have a desire to sit on a cloud, playing a harp and worshipping god forever.

No thanks, I'll take death as the final and dedicate happiness to THIS life.

I find it tragic that a person would live their whole life for a promise after death and neglect this life. 


Could you point me at this lecture of Christopher Hitchens?
Well, if the afterlife is an amorphous sea of deceased people's energy just floating around, that would be boring. Fortunately, this doesn't seem to be the case, according to the dedicated literature. Robert Allan Monroe, the spontaneous astral traveller described it quite well. He was a technical kind of a guy and his account of how it all works is quite satisfactory. (plus consistent with other sources) Of course, it must be somewhat boring there, why else would people incarnate :P And I assure you, in my all knowledge there is no real Yahweh or any similar character. There are only people who like to worship. 

Anyway, don't think that this worldview makes people neglect their lives. Quite opposite, I really hate repeating lessons and staying behind. If I do my best in this life, the next might be even more interesting. 

 

 

First, I gotta say my overall impression is simply "Oh, Bull-Fucking-Shit."

Prof. James DeMeo's 'work'... on the surface appears to be simple new age (rhymes with 'sewage') crap of the type that infests the web. So he continued Wilhelm Reich's work eh? Would that be the Wilhelm Reich who "...  died on November 3, 1957, in the Federal Penitentiary at Lewisburg, Pennsylvania, where he was sent for criminal contempt. The criminal charge was levied because Reich refused to obey an injunction against selling quack medical devices such as the Orgone Accumulator and orgone "shooters," devices which allegedly could collect and distribute orgone energy, thereby making possible the cure for  just about any medical disorder except, perhaps, megalomania and self-delusion."

You can wrap Woo-Woo crap ideas of 'aether' and
'ectoplasm' in pseudoscience, reference string theory and mention dark matter and dark energy, and it remains Bovine Excrement. I'm seldom inclined to be polite about pseudoscientific crap, it offends me.

LC >;-}>

 

Who you gonna call GHOST BUSTERS!

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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Louis_Cypher wrote:You can

Louis_Cypher wrote:


You can wrap Woo-Woo crap ideas of 'aether' and 'ectoplasm' in pseudoscience, reference string theory and mention dark matter and dark energy, and it remains Bovine Excrement. I'm seldom inclined to be polite about pseudoscientific crap, it offends me.

you haven't been here long enough, i think.  most people stopped barkin' up the luminon tree a long time ago.  it's a waste of energy, dark or otherwise.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


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Louis_Cypher wrote:First, I

Louis_Cypher wrote:

First, I gotta say my overall impression is simply "Oh, Bull-Fucking-Shit."

Prof. James DeMeo's 'work'... on the surface appears to be simple new age (rhymes with 'sewage') crap of the type that infests the web.

C'mon! You can do better job than that. Both as a skeptic and as someone who's not a dick. 

James DeMeo is a scientist, he has a laboratory, he performs experiments, lectures and publishes articles. He also builds and sells measuring equipment, including improved Reich's life energy field meter. (based on the principle, that vital field of orgone absorbs the displacement current field around the instrument and therefore is measurable) And by the way, Prof. DeMeo publically denounces the new age conspiratory crap that people spread around orgonomy. 

Louis_Cypher wrote:
So he continued Wilhelm Reich's work eh? Would that be the Wilhelm Reich who "...  died on November 3, 1957, in the Federal Penitentiary at Lewisburg, Pennsylvania, where he was sent for criminal contempt. The criminal charge was levied because Reich refused to obey an injunction against selling quack medical devices such as the Orgone Accumulator and orgone "shooters," devices which allegedly could collect and distribute orgone energy, thereby making possible the cure for  just about any medical disorder except, perhaps, megalomania and self-delusion."
 In case you don't know, Reich was never disproven scientifically. He got locked up, because he healed people with methods not approved by FDA. After that, FDA created an extraordinary effort to confiscate his equipment and destroy his books. Including slandering his persona. Way too much fuss over something that does not exist. The whole story resembles more business mafia practices than free inquiry of science.

So I guess for you there is this signpost on JDM's website: Response to the So-Called "Skeptics", and Irrational Super-Critics of Orgone Research


Louis_Cypher wrote:
 You can wrap Woo-Woo crap ideas of 'aether' and 'ectoplasm' in pseudoscience, reference string theory and mention dark matter and dark energy, and it remains Bovine Excrement. I'm seldom inclined to be polite about pseudoscientific crap, it offends me.

LC >;-}>  
I do not wrap anything in anything. I introduce the work of other scientists. But look at yourself, if certain words work on you like a red rag on a bull, then you're more of a warrior than a thinker. What about a polite response to politely presented claims? What about addressing the claims and disproving them? What about doing your homework on the topic? What about following the evidence wherever it leads? 

Maybe I ask too much, I show you an "apparent and obvious" heap of bull excrement and then ask you to take a dive. How inconsiderate of me. All right, that's not what you signed for. Go get them Christian fundamentalists, that's your natural prey. Please just point me to someone not so hot-blooded, who can actually have a dialogue. Don't worry, I'll not judge the whole skeptical movement by you. I've seen too few responses to have anything to judge by.

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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Luminon wrote:   Could

Luminon wrote:

 

 

 Could you point me at this lecture of Christopher Hitchens?
Well, if the afterlife is an amorphous sea of deceased people's energy just floating around, that would be boring. Fortunately, this doesn't seem to be the case, according to the dedicated literature. Robert Allan Monroe, the spontaneous astral traveller described it quite well. He was a technical kind of a guy and his account of how it all works is quite satisfactory. (plus consistent with other sources) Of course, it must be somewhat boring there, why else would people incarnate :P And I assure you, in my all knowledge there is no real Yahweh or any similar character. There are only people who like to worship. 

Anyway, don't think that this worldview makes people neglect their lives. Quite opposite, I really hate repeating lessons and staying behind. If I do my best in this life, the next might be even more interesting. 

 

I guess ,when I stated about this wordlview causing people to neglect their lives, I was thinking of my own experiences in the church and the experiences of my family, that actually seem to think that everything we do here is for the afterlife. Note:Most of the members of the church I grew up in, did not seem to be very moral people, but they seemed to think that all actions had to do with the afterlife. (When I say afterlife, I do not mean in the sense of which you were speaking, but referring to eternal Heaven vs. eternal Hell).

For instance, I fell out of a tree as a young child and received a broken arm. While laying in the hospital, I was told by family that it must have happened for a reason and god was punishing me in this life, to pay off my sins for the next life.

Although I have been somewhat estranged from my family of origin for awhile, when they found out that my girlfriend and I were living together without being officially married, the attitude that I got was "Your living in sin, you'll pay for that when you die,".(Nevermind the fact that we have been together a long time and long after people said that it would not last).

I think, I was pointing more towards the neverending obsession that people of fanatical religious inclination seem to have towards the idea that everything we do here is about a Heaven vs. Hell attitude.

The Christopher Hitchens lecture that I was referring to, was called The Moral Necessity of Atheism at a college lecture in Nashville. He covers a wide variety of subjects in this lecture. Here is the first video (youtube has them broken down into 8 separate parts) you can follow there:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy6XaHpnkEg

 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Luminon wrote:Louis_Cypher

Luminon wrote:

Louis_Cypher wrote:

First, I gotta say my overall impression is simply "Oh, Bull-Fucking-Shit."

Prof. James DeMeo's 'work'... on the surface appears to be simple new age (rhymes with 'sewage') crap of the type that infests the web.

C'mon! You can do better job than that. Both as a skeptic and as someone who's not a dick. 

James DeMeo is a scientist, he has a laboratory, he performs experiments, lectures and publishes articles. He also builds and sells measuring equipment, including improved Reich's life energy field meter. (based on the principle, that vital field of orgone absorbs the displacement current field around the instrument and therefore is measurable) And by the way, Prof. DeMeo publically denounces the new age conspiratory crap that people spread around orgonomy. 

Louis_Cypher wrote:
So he continued Wilhelm Reich's work eh? Would that be the Wilhelm Reich who "...  died on November 3, 1957, in the Federal Penitentiary at Lewisburg, Pennsylvania, where he was sent for criminal contempt. The criminal charge was levied because Reich refused to obey an injunction against selling quack medical devices such as the Orgone Accumulator and orgone "shooters," devices which allegedly could collect and distribute orgone energy, thereby making possible the cure for  just about any medical disorder except, perhaps, megalomania and self-delusion."
 In case you don't know, Reich was never disproven scientifically. He got locked up, because he healed people with methods not approved by FDA. After that, FDA created an extraordinary effort to confiscate his equipment and destroy his books. Including slandering his persona. Way too much fuss over something that does not exist. The whole story resembles more business mafia practices than free inquiry of science.

So I guess for you there is this signpost on JDM's website: Response to the So-Called "Skeptics", and Irrational Super-Critics of Orgone Research


Louis_Cypher wrote:
 You can wrap Woo-Woo crap ideas of 'aether' and 'ectoplasm' in pseudoscience, reference string theory and mention dark matter and dark energy, and it remains Bovine Excrement. I'm seldom inclined to be polite about pseudoscientific crap, it offends me.

LC >;-}>  
I do not wrap anything in anything. I introduce the work of other scientists. But look at yourself, if certain words work on you like a red rag on a bull, then you're more of a warrior than a thinker. What about a polite response to politely presented claims? What about addressing the claims and disproving them? What about doing your homework on the topic? What about following the evidence wherever it leads? 

Maybe I ask too much, I show you an "apparent and obvious" heap of bull excrement and then ask you to take a dive. How inconsiderate of me. All right, that's not what you signed for. Go get them Christian fundamentalists, that's your natural prey. Please just point me to someone not so hot-blooded, who can actually have a dialogue. Don't worry, I'll not judge the whole skeptical movement by you. I've seen too few responses to have anything to judge by.

He is so famous and qualified that every science textbook teaches his findings. I hate to tell you this, simply using scientific language does not constitute established fact. I give no pass to people simply because they claim a label or degree.

Science that is universal is TAUGHT universally in every accredited  peer reviewed classroom from grade school through college. Lum, you have posted so much woo here in your time here, with different schemes and flavors, to ask us to take what you post seriously is a bit too much.

If you claimed Dawkins supported "The theory of Snarfwidgets" we would be just as skeptical, not that Dawkins ever would.

You've postulated ancient alien woo here too.

Lum, we DO like you. But new age woo is no different to us than the super hero claims of the popular myths written in the ancient ignorance of the past.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Heh. I was wondering when

Heh. I was wondering when Luminon's free pass would expire. The guy is so nice and so harmless that noones bothered putting him through the fire in awhile. But then he survived (stuck around) a hell of a scorching when he first showed up, and I doubt this time will be different.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Vastet wrote:Heh. I was

Vastet wrote:
Heh. I was wondering when Luminon's free pass would expire. The guy is so nice and so harmless that noones bothered putting him through the fire in awhile. But then he survived (stuck around) a hell of a scorching when he first showed up, and I doubt this time will be different.

This should be evidence to those who falsely accuse me of hate, that it is not about labels, but merely what a person claims. The theists and atheists whom. while well intended, with "cant we all just get along" fail to see that it is not about getting along, which should be a given in a civil society, need to understand that claims are a serious matter.

When a claim goes beyond a mere pass time or whim, and gets asserted to a society to the point of affecting politics and science, it is the duty of society to kick the shit out of the claim to insure that it does not fuck up that society.

The best humans will ever be able to do from a pragmatic standpoint, is create a leash on absurd claims  by insisting on anti monopoly concepts in the form of government neutrality in the form of ability to scrutinize any given claim on any subject. It is the only way to insure fascism can be kept at bay.

Without skepticism our species would not have moved forward. We would still be flinging poo and grunting at each other.

If the worst a person's claim gets is "bullshit" we would be a far more peaceful species.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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Luminon wrote:Louis_Cypher

Luminon wrote:

Louis_Cypher wrote:

First, I gotta say my overall impression is simply "Oh, Bull-Fucking-Shit."

Prof. James DeMeo's 'work'... on the surface appears to be simple new age (rhymes with 'sewage') crap of the type that infests the web.

C'mon! You can do better job than that. Both as a skeptic and as someone who's not a dick. 

James DeMeo is a scientist, he has a laboratory, he performs experiments, lectures and publishes articles. He also builds and sells measuring equipment, including improved Reich's life energy field meter. (based on the principle, that vital field of orgone absorbs the displacement current field around the instrument and therefore is measurable) And by the way, Prof. DeMeo publically denounces the new age conspiratory crap that people spread around orgonomy. 

Louis_Cypher wrote:
So he continued Wilhelm Reich's work eh? Would that be the Wilhelm Reich who "...  died on November 3, 1957, in the Federal Penitentiary at Lewisburg, Pennsylvania, where he was sent for criminal contempt. The criminal charge was levied because Reich refused to obey an injunction against selling quack medical devices such as the Orgone Accumulator and orgone "shooters," devices which allegedly could collect and distribute orgone energy, thereby making possible the cure for  just about any medical disorder except, perhaps, megalomania and self-delusion."
 In case you don't know, Reich was never disproven scientifically. He got locked up, because he healed people with methods not approved by FDA. After that, FDA created an extraordinary effort to confiscate his equipment and destroy his books. Including slandering his persona. Way too much fuss over something that does not exist. The whole story resembles more business mafia practices than free inquiry of science.

So I guess for you there is this signpost on JDM's website: Response to the So-Called "Skeptics", and Irrational Super-Critics of Orgone Research


Louis_Cypher wrote:
 You can wrap Woo-Woo crap ideas of 'aether' and 'ectoplasm' in pseudoscience, reference string theory and mention dark matter and dark energy, and it remains Bovine Excrement. I'm seldom inclined to be polite about pseudoscientific crap, it offends me.

LC >;-}>  
I do not wrap anything in anything. I introduce the work of other scientists. But look at yourself, if certain words work on you like a red rag on a bull, then you're more of a warrior than a thinker. What about a polite response to politely presented claims? What about addressing the claims and disproving them? What about doing your homework on the topic? What about following the evidence wherever it leads? 

Maybe I ask too much, I show you an "apparent and obvious" heap of bull excrement and then ask you to take a dive. How inconsiderate of me. All right, that's not what you signed for. Go get them Christian fundamentalists, that's your natural prey. Please just point me to someone not so hot-blooded, who can actually have a dialogue. Don't worry, I'll not judge the whole skeptical movement by you. I've seen too few responses to have anything to judge by.

 

Let's be clear here...

Orgone is a fraudulent concept, utter and complete bullshit.
In its final conception, developed by Reich's student Charles Kelly after Reich's death, Orgone was conceived as the anti-entropic principle of the universe, a creative substratum in all of nature comparable to Mesmer's animal magnetism, the Odic force of Carl Reichenbach and Henri Bergson's élan vital"

Yep, right up there with Animal Magnetism, the Odic Force and Elan Vital as valid science...


Orgone Accumulators... wooden boxes with insulation... the only thing they accumulate is sweat. The original idea was that people should fuck in the boxes to capture the orgone energy of their orgasm... Really?
Cloud Busters... Metal tubes with hoses... Really?... this is the homeopathy of meteorology... point a tube at the sky and call it science...
I bet you wear magnetic bracelets, don't you?

The fact that DeMeo is loud and vociferous doesn't make him less a fraud, any more than other public scam artists, such as Federal Prisoner Kent Hovine, Sylvia Brown or John Edwards... all loud, all vocal...all FRAUDS.

DeMeo has a degree in geology... how that translates into an expertise in cloudbusting (rainmaking, dousing etc) is beyond me... But it translates into medical expertise, apparently...
Yep... if I have cancer, forget all them oncologists, call me a ROCK HOUND!

You are a fundamentalist in the Church of Woo-Woo. Your tenants center on a paranoid ideology that there is an organized conspiracy to suppress your version of 'truth'... You have high priests such as the idiot DeMeo, and canon that includes every lame, silly and 'out there' crackpot notion you can find on the web...

I call it 'Bullshit' because it passes the Waterfowl Test, "If it looks like a duck, quacks, has a bill, little webbed feet and craps in the pond it's a duck."


If it looks, sounds and smells like bullshit, it's Orgone....

 

LC >;-}>

 

Christianity: A disgusting middle eastern blood cult, based in human sacrifice, with sacraments of cannibalism and vampirism, whose highest icon is of a near naked man hanging in torment from a device of torture.


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Brian37 wrote: He is so

Brian37 wrote:
 He is so famous and qualified that every science textbook teaches his findings. I hate to tell you this, simply using scientific language does not constitute established fact. I give no pass to people simply because they claim a label or degree.

Science that is universal is TAUGHT universally in every accredited  peer reviewed classroom from grade school through college. Lum, you have posted so much woo here in your time here, with different schemes and flavors, to ask us to take what you post seriously is a bit too much.

If you claimed Dawkins supported "The theory of Snarfwidgets" we would be just as skeptical, not that Dawkins ever would.

You've postulated ancient alien woo here too.

Lum, we DO like you. But new age woo is no different to us than the super hero claims of the popular myths written in the ancient ignorance of the past.

 Brian. Look what you say. Apparently, I am a house pet that suddenly made a big turd on the carpet. 

You may like me, but don't try to use it as an argument. If you think you do me a favor, you probably don't. I don't remember receiving any theist free pass card nor asking for one. I don't remember claiming that academic degree or scientific language makes things correct. If the title will hint merely that someone is no stranger to academic environment, I'll be content.

I don't exactly need to convert anyone or make anyone agree. People can offer lots of insight and constructive criticism even though they disagree. Some poeple, at least. If you're not interested in other worldviews and maybe improving your own, your bad. But I have a worldview too and if I find evidence for it or against, I need to discuss it. And as Seth from The Thinking Atheist podcast says, what is worldview good for, if we don't examine it? What seems like preaching to your anti-Christian neural circuits, is actually a presentation of claims for examination. If any of these folks is wrong, (including, let's say Jay Alfred with his Dark Plasma Theory who has no academic degree AFAIK) I want to know it. I also want to know why. So I can write him an e-mail and say "Hi Al, here's the spot where you're wrong and why" and if he won't do anything about it, I can stop referring to him as my source. 

I know, you can't examine any weird claim in sight, life's too short for that. But be fair. If you can't give something a fair (thorough) examination, like you don't have time, interest or mood for that, just say so. But don't say it's bullshit because it's bullshit because. That makes a bad impression.  

 

Vastet wrote:
Heh. I was wondering when Luminon's free pass would expire. The guy is so nice and so harmless that noones bothered putting him through the fire in awhile. But then he survived (stuck around) a hell of a scorching when he first showed up, and I doubt this time will be different.

Here's the problem, dammit. I never wanted a free pass. I want to get through the fire as often as I can handle. It's a demanding kind of fun, but fun nonetheless. I live in place full of people who can't do that sort of thing, out of lack of interest, knowledge and methods of critical thinking. So this is a trace element that I go here to replenish. The question is, do I have to be dangerous to get a fair treatment? It seems to work with Christians, who else gets their book so thoroughly examined against all scientific evidence? Smiling I've listened to far too many atheist podcasts and I think there's something good about being unapologetic. Coming out of the closet as a.... extraordinary materialist or something.

Brian37 wrote:
 This should be evidence to those who falsely accuse me of hate, that it is not about labels, but merely what a person claims. The theists and atheists whom. while well intended, with "cant we all just get along" fail to see that it is not about getting along, which should be a given in a civil society, need to understand that claims are a serious matter.

When a claim goes beyond a mere pass time or whim, and gets asserted to a society to the point of affecting politics and science, it is the duty of society to kick the shit out of the claim to insure that it does not fuck up that society.

The best humans will ever be able to do from a pragmatic standpoint, is create a leash on absurd claims  by insisting on anti monopoly concepts in the form of government neutrality in the form of ability to scrutinize any given claim on any subject. It is the only way to insure fascism can be kept at bay.

Without skepticism our species would not have moved forward. We would still be flinging poo and grunting at each other.

If the worst a person's claim gets is "bullshit" we would be a far more peaceful species.

 Why can't we just get along? Because getting along is boring. Discussing ideas and searching for facts is something I want to do often. Look at you, Brian. You're busy fighting the religious threat. You don't have time for non-threats like me. But please say so and don't hide behind dismissals. In case you don't know, the atheist community is terrible at public relations. It is so easy to be condescending, to dismiss claims by outer semblance or, and here I emphasize, to underestimate people.

No, I don't think you hate anyone, I don't remember accusing you of hate. But your attitude gives me one more reason to hate religion, because religion makes skeptics so busy they're like soldiers on the front line. They feel threatened by any outside ideas, so they attack them or defend from them, or ignore them if they're not dangerous.

 

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Luminon quote:[Robert Allan

Luminon quote:

[Robert Allan Monroe, the spontaneous astral traveller ] 

>>>

This Robert Monroe?

http://www.monroeinstitute.org/robert-monroe/

 

OK...I understand now.  Yeah, astral projection/travel...right.

 

You (Luminon) think that by spewing a lot of new/different superstitious tripe is going to make other older/similar superstitious tripe more believable?  Maybe to those affected (adversely) by the 'superstitious gene'.  

 

If you feel the need to believe (grasping at straws) in what cannot be proved to be true and what cannot be proved to exist...I just ask that you do it quietly in your own home.  If you feel the need to flagellate and genuflect, please also do that in the privacy of your own home or preferred place of performing such actions (not in public).  

 

Really, if you are a rational person, you should be ashamed to be contributing to the confusion of those unable to discern delusional thinking and the lack of evidence for a invisible, supernatural super friend.  

>>>

"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)

"A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes"...James Feibleman (1904-1987)

Respectfully, Lyz


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Lyzandra Daria wrote:Luminon

Lyzandra Daria wrote:

Luminon quote:

[Robert Allan Monroe, the spontaneous astral traveller ] 

>>>

This Robert Monroe?

http://www.monroeinstitute.org/robert-monroe/

 

OK...I understand now.  Yeah, astral projection/travel...right.

Yep, his institute works with helping people go on a trip by the Hemi-Sync technology. Which is modulating brain waves by sending a slightly different frequency into ears. Nothing strange about it, the Inca people knew it long ago. They even made special clay flutes with two slightly different resonance chambers.... I don't know how about you, but I find these pieces of trivia interesting.

Lyzandra Daria wrote:
 You (Luminon) think that by spewing a lot of new/different superstitious tripe is going to make other older/similar superstitious tripe more believable?  Maybe to those affected (adversely) by the 'superstitious gene'.  
Certainly not believable, but Monroe's books are a fascinating reading. Skeptics might at least learn something about modern advanced notions of afterlife that are out there. 

Lyzandra Daria wrote:
 If you feel the need to believe (grasping at straws) in what cannot be proved to be true and what cannot be proved to exist...I just ask that you do it quietly in your own home.  If you feel the need to flagellate and genuflect, please also do that in the privacy of your own home or preferred place of performing such actions (not in public).  

Really, if you are a rational person, you should be ashamed to be contributing to the confusion of those unable to discern delusional thinking and the lack of evidence for a invisible, supernatural super friend.  

>>> 

No, I'm not that simple. It's not about belief, rather about experience and what evidence can I find to support it. Or disprove it, whatever goes.

But what you point at makes it all more complicated. Apparently, there is a war of believers and unbelievers. And during war anyone with funny ideas may be seen as a traitor or at least someone unpatriotic. Let it some consolation to you, that I engage Christians in discussion at any opportunity and do a job as any atheist activist would. Hell, this summer I even publically debated with the apologetist Stefan Gustavsson in person. I do it for the thrills, not because theocracy is breathing on my neck. I live a religiously sheltered life and never was militant about anything. Not even about rationality.

But Christians are not enough, with their one book. All my sources including the science tell me, that material universe is not that simple. That there are other kinds of matter than just ours and that they might have, for example, a chemistry of their own, if not outright biology. This is a very compelling line of thought and its implications on everything are fascinating. 

The problem is, there is no escape from the war and sometimes the soldiers of rationality like you come to complain that my thinking is not patriotic enough. You see, I can't even get down to the rational discussion, this official politics or ideology of skeptical movement keeps coming up, don't know how else to name it. "We're in a war and your big mouth is a possible sign you're a saboteur agent of the enemy, because who isn't 100% with us, is against us, cadet."
Hopefully you see my point, don't know what to do about it.

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Louis_Cypher wrote:Let's be

Louis_Cypher wrote:

Let's be clear here...

Orgone is a fraudulent concept, utter and complete bullshit.
In its final conception, developed by Reich's student Charles Kelly after Reich's death, Orgone was conceived as the anti-entropic principle of the universe, a creative substratum in all of nature comparable to Mesmer's animal magnetism, the Odic force of Carl Reichenbach and Henri Bergson's élan vital"

Yep, right up there with Animal Magnetism, the Odic Force and Elan Vital as valid science... 

I might play the Devil's advocate for a while. Why exactly do we think it's utter and complete bullshit? Anyway I feel like I'll have to do certain neglected homework on this topic soon. 

Louis_Cypher wrote:
 Orgone Accumulators... wooden boxes with insulation... the only thing they accumulate is sweat. The original idea was that people should fuck in the boxes to capture the orgone energy of their orgasm... Really?
Cloud Busters... Metal tubes with hoses... Really?... this is the homeopathy of meteorology... point a tube at the sky and call it science...
 Yes, many discoveries started as very silly ideas. But in some of them there is a core of truth.
The principle of Orgone accumulators is not just any insulation, it's layered insulation including metallic layers. Accumulator without metal is used as the fake one for the controls. You can find details of the (succesful) experiment in this document

Louis_Cypher wrote:
 I bet you wear magnetic bracelets, don't you?
I don't, actually. If a living frog can be magnetized so much that it levitates and yet nothing happens, then wearing magnetic bracelets is obviously very silly.

Anyway, I'm kind of a cheap skate. I usually don't pay money for such things, most of stuff I get for free or as a gift from friends. So I got to try out a lot of various new age contraptions and practices mostly for free out of curiosity. There's just no point in telling you.

Louis_Cypher wrote:
 The fact that DeMeo is loud and vociferous doesn't make him less a fraud, any more than other public scam artists, such as Federal Prisoner Kent Hovine, Sylvia Brown or John Edwards... all loud, all vocal...all FRAUDS.

DeMeo has a degree in geology... how that translates into an expertise in cloudbusting (rainmaking, dousing etc) is beyond me... But it translates into medical expertise, apparently...
Yep... if I have cancer, forget all them oncologists, call me a ROCK HOUND!

You call DeMeo vociferous? How's having a website and lab in the forest vociferous? Have you ever seen Westboro Baptist Church? Smiling

Louis_Cypher wrote:
 You are a fundamentalist in the Church of Woo-Woo. Your tenants center on a paranoid ideology that there is an organized conspiracy to suppress your version of 'truth'... You have high priests such as the idiot DeMeo, and canon that includes every lame, silly and 'out there' crackpot notion you can find on the web...

Now what you propose actually sounds like a conspiracy in itself Smiling As for being a fundie, please put your glasses on. Fundies are people who feel threatened by opposing views and act aggressively, probably because deep down there they have doubts and doubts are sinful. If I'd be a fundie, I'd unleash the fury of Caps Lock long ago. I'm not even religious, SBNR, you know.
As for the crackpottery, I already linked you JDM's article where he denounces the crackpots. So do I, although rarely anyone ever sees the difference.

Please, read what I wrote to Lyzandra Daria. This is something that always kept nagging in the back of my mind, that kind of war mentality around here. Only now I can express it better, for what it is. Militant atheism is fun on podcasts, but it prevents us from having a true freethinking conversation. We must always think how do we look like to the believers that might be visiting. Do we look united enough? Or is there an internal strife that they might exploit? Will we still look rational enough for the newcoming atheistic refugees from Bible Belt, if we allow Luminon to have his topic? This is what local folks who know me must be thinking. I hope you see my point.
 

 

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Bovine Excrement in layers...

Luminon wrote:

Louis_Cypher wrote:

Let's be clear here...

Orgone is a fraudulent concept, utter and complete bullshit.
In its final conception, developed by Reich's student Charles Kelly after Reich's death, Orgone was conceived as the anti-entropic principle of the universe, a creative substratum in all of nature comparable to Mesmer's animal magnetism, the Odic force of Carl Reichenbach and Henri Bergson's élan vital"

Yep, right up there with Animal Magnetism, the Odic Force and Elan Vital as valid science... 

I might play the Devil's advocate for a while. Why exactly do we think it's utter and complete bullshit? Anyway I feel like I'll have to do certain neglected homework on this topic soon. 

Louis_Cypher wrote:
 Orgone Accumulators... wooden boxes with insulation... the only thing they accumulate is sweat. The original idea was that people should fuck in the boxes to capture the orgone energy of their orgasm... Really?
Cloud Busters... Metal tubes with hoses... Really?... this is the homeopathy of meteorology... point a tube at the sky and call it science...
 Yes, many discoveries started as very silly ideas. But in some of them there is a core of truth.
The principle of Orgone accumulators is not just any insulation, it's layered insulation including metallic layers. Accumulator without metal is used as the fake one for the controls. You can find details of the (succesful) experiment in this document

Louis_Cypher wrote:
 I bet you wear magnetic bracelets, don't you?
I don't, actually. If a living frog can be magnetized so much that it levitates and yet nothing happens, then wearing magnetic bracelets is obviously very silly.

Anyway, I'm kind of a cheap skate. I usually don't pay money for such things, most of stuff I get for free or as a gift from friends. So I got to try out a lot of various new age contraptions and practices mostly for free out of curiosity. There's just no point in telling you.

Louis_Cypher wrote:
 The fact that DeMeo is loud and vociferous doesn't make him less a fraud, any more than other public scam artists, such as Federal Prisoner Kent Hovine, Sylvia Brown or John Edwards... all loud, all vocal...all FRAUDS.

DeMeo has a degree in geology... how that translates into an expertise in cloudbusting (rainmaking, dousing etc) is beyond me... But it translates into medical expertise, apparently...
Yep... if I have cancer, forget all them oncologists, call me a ROCK HOUND!

You call DeMeo vociferous? How's having a website and lab in the forest vociferous? Have you ever seen Westboro Baptist Church? Smiling

Louis_Cypher wrote:
 You are a fundamentalist in the Church of Woo-Woo. Your tenants center on a paranoid ideology that there is an organized conspiracy to suppress your version of 'truth'... You have high priests such as the idiot DeMeo, and canon that includes every lame, silly and 'out there' crackpot notion you can find on the web...

Now what you propose actually sounds like a conspiracy in itself Smiling As for being a fundie, please put your glasses on. Fundies are people who feel threatened by opposing views and act aggressively, probably because deep down there they have doubts and doubts are sinful. If I'd be a fundie, I'd unleash the fury of Caps Lock long ago. I'm not even religious, SBNR, you know.
As for the crackpottery, I already linked you JDM's article where he denounces the crackpots. So do I, although rarely anyone ever sees the difference.

Please, read what I wrote to Lyzandra Daria. This is something that always kept nagging in the back of my mind, that kind of war mentality around here. Only now I can express it better, for what it is. Militant atheism is fun on podcasts, but it prevents us from having a true freethinking conversation. We must always think how do we look like to the believers that might be visiting. Do we look united enough? Or is there an internal strife that they might exploit? Will we still look rational enough for the newcoming atheistic refugees from Bible Belt, if we allow Luminon to have his topic? This is what local folks who know me must be thinking. I hope you see my point.
 

 

Orgone Energy has never, repeat NEVER been validated in a peer reviewed, really REAL science venue. Never, not once. Here's a tip, when the fraud who is the chief proponent of a bogus, bullshit bit of pseudoscientific quackery writes papers touting his fraudulent bullshit, it isn't really proof.
Aparantly, DeMeo has learned that the best defense, besides heaping the bullshit up to neck level, is a good offense. Thus he writes numerous papers and critiques of government agencies, like the ones who legitimately shut down his icon W. Reich for being a medical FRAUD. The fact that he piously attacks other quacks is just a diversion. He is a fraud, a liar, a fake... a bullshit artist and a flim flam man... Orgone is a demonstrable bit of bullshit, deserving of no more serious consideration than ectoplasm... Oh, and really... it's the METAL insulation that prevents a force that supposedly permeates the universe from escaping... why didn't I think of that.

I've said it before... too often these forums end up like a box of granola... once you shake out the fruit and nuts, all that's left is flakes.

LC >;-}>


 

Christianity: A disgusting middle eastern blood cult, based in human sacrifice, with sacraments of cannibalism and vampirism, whose highest icon is of a near naked man hanging in torment from a device of torture.


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Lol, I remember challenging

Lol, I remember challenging Luminon when I first arrived on some bs or other.  I have to hand it to this guy, he's the most skeptical woo follower I've ever met.  The guy is too nice to dislike.  I just chuck him up with a guy I would enjoy having a beer with and just tune out the crazy talk, because ironically 95% of this we would agree on.  I think he's an agnostic atheist with emphasis on AGNOSTIC.  He just has too much hope, reminds me of a much younger me Smiling

 

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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Luminon wrote:Brian37

Luminon wrote:

Brian37 wrote:
 He is so famous and qualified that every science textbook teaches his findings. I hate to tell you this, simply using scientific language does not constitute established fact. I give no pass to people simply because they claim a label or degree.

Science that is universal is TAUGHT universally in every accredited  peer reviewed classroom from grade school through college. Lum, you have posted so much woo here in your time here, with different schemes and flavors, to ask us to take what you post seriously is a bit too much.

If you claimed Dawkins supported "The theory of Snarfwidgets" we would be just as skeptical, not that Dawkins ever would.

You've postulated ancient alien woo here too.

Lum, we DO like you. But new age woo is no different to us than the super hero claims of the popular myths written in the ancient ignorance of the past.

 Brian. Look what you say. Apparently, I am a house pet that suddenly made a big turd on the carpet. 

You may like me, but don't try to use it as an argument. If you think you do me a favor, you probably don't. I don't remember receiving any theist free pass card nor asking for one. I don't remember claiming that academic degree or scientific language makes things correct. If the title will hint merely that someone is no stranger to academic environment, I'll be content.

I don't exactly need to convert anyone or make anyone agree. People can offer lots of insight and constructive criticism even though they disagree. Some poeple, at least. If you're not interested in other worldviews and maybe improving your own, your bad. But I have a worldview too and if I find evidence for it or against, I need to discuss it. And as Seth from The Thinking Atheist podcast says, what is worldview good for, if we don't examine it? What seems like preaching to your anti-Christian neural circuits, is actually a presentation of claims for examination. If any of these folks is wrong, (including, let's say Jay Alfred with his Dark Plasma Theory who has no academic degree AFAIK) I want to know it. I also want to know why. So I can write him an e-mail and say "Hi Al, here's the spot where you're wrong and why" and if he won't do anything about it, I can stop referring to him as my source. 

I know, you can't examine any weird claim in sight, life's too short for that. But be fair. If you can't give something a fair (thorough) examination, like you don't have time, interest or mood for that, just say so. But don't say it's bullshit because it's bullshit because. That makes a bad impression.  

 

Vastet wrote:
Heh. I was wondering when Luminon's free pass would expire. The guy is so nice and so harmless that noones bothered putting him through the fire in awhile. But then he survived (stuck around) a hell of a scorching when he first showed up, and I doubt this time will be different.

Here's the problem, dammit. I never wanted a free pass. I want to get through the fire as often as I can handle. It's a demanding kind of fun, but fun nonetheless. I live in place full of people who can't do that sort of thing, out of lack of interest, knowledge and methods of critical thinking. So this is a trace element that I go here to replenish. The question is, do I have to be dangerous to get a fair treatment? It seems to work with Christians, who else gets their book so thoroughly examined against all scientific evidence? Smiling I've listened to far too many atheist podcasts and I think there's something good about being unapologetic. Coming out of the closet as a.... extraordinary materialist or something.

Brian37 wrote:
 This should be evidence to those who falsely accuse me of hate, that it is not about labels, but merely what a person claims. The theists and atheists whom. while well intended, with "cant we all just get along" fail to see that it is not about getting along, which should be a given in a civil society, need to understand that claims are a serious matter.

When a claim goes beyond a mere pass time or whim, and gets asserted to a society to the point of affecting politics and science, it is the duty of society to kick the shit out of the claim to insure that it does not fuck up that society.

The best humans will ever be able to do from a pragmatic standpoint, is create a leash on absurd claims  by insisting on anti monopoly concepts in the form of government neutrality in the form of ability to scrutinize any given claim on any subject. It is the only way to insure fascism can be kept at bay.

Without skepticism our species would not have moved forward. We would still be flinging poo and grunting at each other.

If the worst a person's claim gets is "bullshit" we would be a far more peaceful species.

 Why can't we just get along? Because getting along is boring. Discussing ideas and searching for facts is something I want to do often. Look at you, Brian. You're busy fighting the religious threat. You don't have time for non-threats like me. But please say so and don't hide behind dismissals. In case you don't know, the atheist community is terrible at public relations. It is so easy to be condescending, to dismiss claims by outer semblance or, and here I emphasize, to underestimate people.

No, I don't think you hate anyone, I don't remember accusing you of hate. But your attitude gives me one more reason to hate religion, because religion makes skeptics so busy they're like soldiers on the front line. They feel threatened by any outside ideas, so they attack them or defend from them, or ignore them if they're not dangerous.

 

I wasn't accusing you of saying I hate you. Again, this is just as much a benefit for other readers as it is for you. It is all about the attitude of NO CLAIMS getting a free pass. And yes, I do dismiss your claims because the are no more universal than the claims of theists. If they were they would be taught like DNA and mitosis and black holes are in science classes.

Woo is woo, no matter where it comes from or who claims it. I have even blasted Sam Haris(along with Victor Stinger blasting him "The New Atheism&quotEye-wink for interjecting Buddhism in his claims(Sam Harris).

Skeptics should be soldiers, not in a literal "pick up guns and kill people", but in the verbal sense of demanding a high standard to claims to insure that they are not simple crap people sell.

Why shouldn't I defend scientific method? When creationists and IDers continue to dumb down their kids. When a homopathy scam ends up at my mother's retirement home, on top of all the religious politics all over the world with religious people with their hands on weapons, DAMNED RIGHT I am going to question, blaspheme and ridicule.

You have posted stuff here that is just as bad and lacking evidence as a theists claims. That does not make me arrogant or bigoted or hateful. It simply means your claims are not going to get a free pass.

Any ignored woo can grow to be dangerous. The only way to keep that dog on a leash is to question it.

 

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Luminon wrote:Here's the

Luminon wrote:
Here's the problem, dammit. I never wanted a free pass...~snip

I know, but many of the things you talk about are not exactly common knowledge, and without an organised religion that's causing significant harm to provoke me into challenging it I don't really want to bother researching it.
It isn't being pushed in schools, and there aren't and have never been wars fought over it.
Even if it is substanceless, as I suspect strongly enough to further discourage my motivation to research obscure things like this, in this capitalist society it is perfectly acceptable to make money off of anything or nothing as long as it isn't illegal.
So unless you refer to something I already know about I'm unlikely to bother challenging a post you write.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Louis_Cypher wrote:Orgone

Louis_Cypher wrote:

Orgone Energy has never, repeat NEVER been validated in a peer reviewed, really REAL science venue. Never, not once. Here's a tip, when the fraud who is the chief proponent of a bogus, bullshit bit of pseudoscientific quackery writes papers touting his fraudulent bullshit, it isn't really proof.

Really real science venure? Do I sense a no true Scotsman here? Anyway, you can save your hateful preaching. You just know you're right, just like all fundies of the world. And you're just as convincing. 

So let's hear out JDM first:
Starting in 1977, as part of his graduate research at the University of Kansas, DeMeo undertook replication studies of Reich's biophysical research -- specifically, a systematic evaluation of the Reich cloudbuster which yielded positive results. The acceptance of DeMeo's work by the KU faculty constituted the first time any aspect of Reich's controversial biophysical research had been validated by peer-review within a mainstream academic institution.

And really, after digging a while I indeed found on the Kansas University website something about him.

http://www2.ku.edu/~geography/Docs/2002-2003/alumni_news.htm
Looks like if you want something peer-reviewed, you have to do it yourself.

As for his peer-reviewed articles, look at his blog.

Several of my articles have recently been recently published, including within mainstream peer-reviewed science journals and books, on the subject of orgone biophysics or the cosmic ether of space.  Also a few popular-magazine articles, in Korean translations.

 

Louis_Cypher wrote:
Aparantly, DeMeo has learned that the best defense, besides heaping the bullshit up to neck level, is a good offense. Thus he writes numerous papers and critiques of government agencies, like the ones who legitimately shut down his icon W. Reich for being a medical FRAUD. The fact that he piously attacks other quacks is just a diversion. He is a fraud, a liar, a fake... a bullshit artist and a flim flam man... Orgone is a demonstrable bit of bullshit, deserving of no more serious consideration than ectoplasm... Oh, and really... it's the METAL insulation that prevents a force that supposedly permeates the universe from escaping... why didn't I think of that. 
You still haven't explained why do you think it's all fake. You might just as well replace all these words with sinner, brimstone and hellfire, for all the substance there is. You should start from the beginning and patiently explain to me, why do you think there is no aether, orgone, prana and so on. 

I think this question is far from finished. It was never properly settled and the controversy is still going on. On top of that, it seems to be a politically touchy topic. I don't understand this as well as I'd like to, but it seems many people think there's not enough of space on Earth for both Einstein and Reich. Reich or Einstein. Einstein or Reich. Pick one, discard the other. Aether and relativity can not be simultaneously true. Relativity was observed. So aether must be bullshit.

And yet, once aether is politically of the way, we must re-invent it and name it dark matter, or galaxies won't hold together. There seems to be no problem with relativity and dark matter. If dark matter is actually the fabled aether and orgone, acting as concentrated around Earth's gravitational field and interacting with living organisms and so on, that would be a very neat and logical explanation of everything that Reich, JDM and others reported. And for many other things. My personal opinion is, that aether (which is really dark matter) probably never had anything to do with propagation of light in space. It was a wrong idea which nonetheless gave a real result.

The problem is, we already had a long discussion here on this topic some years ago. It was about Michelson-Morley experiment that yielded negative result on aether and other similar experiments that gave a positive result. It's really quite a controversy which I don't remember very well on top of that. It would require one hell of a homework to gather all the resources and verify them. What came first, Silvertooth experiment or NASA COBE report confirming the results? And if I can produce a dozen independent positive studies, you'll just say they're not peer-reviewed or that they are peer-reviewed only by other conspirators. 

Anyway, I don't know why I'm telling you this. You've yet to prove that you can calm down and talk reasonably. Call me whatever you want, go ahead. I was called a liar or worse many times all over by many people. It's just the militant mentality, if it seems weak, attack it, if it's strong defend from it and ignore if it's harmless. So far I'm talking to the militant answering machine, not to the real you as you behave to other people. I hope. You might actually benefit from hearing how your fellow atheists see this radical attitude of yours.  I wouldn't want to see you causing trouble on orgonomy conference like David Mabus on atheist conference. 

 

Ktulu wrote:

Lol, I remember challenging Luminon when I first arrived on some bs or other.  I have to hand it to this guy, he's the most skeptical woo follower I've ever met.  The guy is too nice to dislike.  I just chuck him up with a guy I would enjoy having a beer with and just tune out the crazy talk, because ironically 95% of this we would agree on.  I think he's an agnostic atheist with emphasis on AGNOSTIC.  He just has too much hope, reminds me of a much younger me Smiling

I have to admit, I like comments like that. It keeps me going... Going into the lion's den and insisting on a civil conversation with the human inside, despite of the roaring. 

I must be skeptical, because I want to be right. Being right feels good and I'm used to being right most of the time. But all my certainity comes out of lots of personal experience. We've been through that discussion many times and there's probably no good way to explain it or easy way to imagine it. But the experience is real for me as any daily reality is real for you. So instead of denying it, I investigate it and compare with other research out there. And there are results that make sense.

As for meeting IRL, you wouldn't have to tune out anything. I'd just try to give you a proof. Let's say the topic is energetic new agey stuff like Reiki. I'd grab your hands and give you a strong dose of energy that you just can't overlook. I did that a few times before and so far it worked. But I haven't yet tried on an outspoken skeptic. That would be wonderful. If you'd tell me it worked, I could be skeptical in your face, about your supernatural claim.
Just kidding Smiling But seriously, if I'm succesful, I'd love to watch you confront this experience with your skeptical worldview and maybe see you stew in front of skepticism of others. If you dare to tell them Smiling 

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Luminon wrote:Louis_Cypher

Luminon wrote:

Louis_Cypher wrote:

Orgone Energy has never, repeat NEVER been validated in a peer reviewed, really REAL science venue. Never, not once. Here's a tip, when the fraud who is the chief proponent of a bogus, bullshit bit of pseudoscientific quackery writes papers touting his fraudulent bullshit, it isn't really proof.

Really real science venure? Do I sense a no true Scotsman here? Anyway, you can save your hateful preaching. You just know you're right, just like all fundies of the world. And you're just as convincing. 

So let's hear out JDM first:
Starting in 1977, as part of his graduate research at the University of Kansas, DeMeo undertook replication studies of Reich's biophysical research -- specifically, a systematic evaluation of the Reich cloudbuster which yielded positive results. The acceptance of DeMeo's work by the KU faculty constituted the first time any aspect of Reich's controversial biophysical research had been validated by peer-review within a mainstream academic institution.

And really, after digging a while I indeed found on the Kansas University website something about him.

http://www2.ku.edu/~geography/Docs/2002-2003/alumni_news.htm
Looks like if you want something peer-reviewed, you have to do it yourself.

As for his peer-reviewed articles, look at his blog.

Several of my articles have recently been recently published, including within mainstream peer-reviewed science journals and books, on the subject of orgone biophysics or the cosmic ether of space.  Also a few popular-magazine articles, in Korean translations.

 

Louis_Cypher wrote:
Aparantly, DeMeo has learned that the best defense, besides heaping the bullshit up to neck level, is a good offense. Thus he writes numerous papers and critiques of government agencies, like the ones who legitimately shut down his icon W. Reich for being a medical FRAUD. The fact that he piously attacks other quacks is just a diversion. He is a fraud, a liar, a fake... a bullshit artist and a flim flam man... Orgone is a demonstrable bit of bullshit, deserving of no more serious consideration than ectoplasm... Oh, and really... it's the METAL insulation that prevents a force that supposedly permeates the universe from escaping... why didn't I think of that. 
You still haven't explained why do you think it's all fake. You might just as well replace all these words with sinner, brimstone and hellfire, for all the substance there is. You should start from the beginning and patiently explain to me, why do you think there is no aether, orgone, prana and so on. 

I think this question is far from finished. It was never properly settled and the controversy is still going on. On top of that, it seems to be a politically touchy topic. I don't understand this as well as I'd like to, but it seems many people think there's not enough of space on Earth for both Einstein and Reich. Reich or Einstein. Einstein or Reich. Pick one, discard the other. Aether and relativity can not be simultaneously true. Relativity was observed. So aether must be bullshit.

And yet, once aether is politically of the way, we must re-invent it and name it dark matter, or galaxies won't hold together. There seems to be no problem with relativity and dark matter. If dark matter is actually the fabled aether and orgone, acting as concentrated around Earth's gravitational field and interacting with living organisms and so on, that would be a very neat and logical explanation of everything that Reich, JDM and others reported. And for many other things. My personal opinion is, that aether (which is really dark matter) probably never had anything to do with propagation of light in space. It was a wrong idea which nonetheless gave a real result.

The problem is, we already had a long discussion here on this topic some years ago. It was about Michelson-Morley experiment that yielded negative result on aether and other similar experiments that gave a positive result. It's really quite a controversy which I don't remember very well on top of that. It would require one hell of a homework to gather all the resources and verify them. What came first, Silvertooth experiment or NASA COBE report confirming the results? And if I can produce a dozen independent positive studies, you'll just say they're not peer-reviewed or that they are peer-reviewed only by other conspirators. 

Anyway, I don't know why I'm telling you this. You've yet to prove that you can calm down and talk reasonably. Call me whatever you want, go ahead. I was called a liar or worse many times all over by many people. It's just the militant mentality, if it seems weak, attack it, if it's strong defend from it and ignore if it's harmless. So far I'm talking to the militant answering machine, not to the real you as you behave to other people. I hope. You might actually benefit from hearing how your fellow atheists see this radical attitude of yours.  I wouldn't want to see you causing trouble on orgonomy conference like David Mabus on atheist conference. 

 

 

Ktulu wrote:

Lol, I remember challenging Luminon when I first arrived on some bs or other.  I have to hand it to this guy, he's the most skeptical woo follower I've ever met.  The guy is too nice to dislike.  I just chuck him up with a guy I would enjoy having a beer with and just tune out the crazy talk, because ironically 95% of this we would agree on.  I think he's an agnostic atheist with emphasis on AGNOSTIC.  He just has too much hope, reminds me of a much younger me Smiling

I have to admit, I like comments like that. It keeps me going... Going into the lion's den and insisting on a civil conversation with the human inside, despite of the roaring. 

I must be skeptical, because I want to be right. Being right feels good and I'm used to being right most of the time. But all my certainity comes out of lots of personal experience. We've been through that discussion many times and there's probably no good way to explain it or easy way to imagine it. But the experience is real for me as any daily reality is real for you. So instead of denying it, I investigate it and compare with other research out there. And there are results that make sense.

As for meeting IRL, you wouldn't have to tune out anything. I'd just try to give you a proof. Let's say the topic is energetic new agey stuff like Reiki. I'd grab your hands and give you a strong dose of energy that you just can't overlook. I did that a few times before and so far it worked. But I haven't yet tried on an outspoken skeptic. That would be wonderful. If you'd tell me it worked, I could be skeptical in your face, about your supernatural claim.
Just kidding Smiling But seriously, if I'm succesful, I'd love to watch you confront this experience with your skeptical worldview and maybe see you stew in front of skepticism of others. If you dare to tell them Smiling 

 

Despite my bluster and despite what some might think, I really am a pussycat. I do like you. I like Furry so far. Capt Pineapple, but she didn't really bother me when she was a pantheist. Caposkia is an educated guy, and I am quite sure outside claiming stuff we could hang out and have  a good time doing non debate stuff.

BUT your claims DO drive me nuts so do Caposkia's and Pinapple did as a pantheist. I also like Furry's playful banter about my Skins sucking. But she too drives me nuts with her god claims. So when I beat up on your claims it really is nothing personal and I can and still will like anyone who can separate issues, even if I hate a particular claim they may make.

Even Beyond I am quite sure outside the issue of economics would be fun to have a beer with and watch a game with. But I do pull my hair out and scream when he makes the claims he does.

So rest assured Lum, I may rip your claims to shreds but outside your claims, the fact that you have taken our punches says a lot about you seeing us as individuals. That above everything is at least something we can both get out of it.

Now enough of this love fest, I have a kitten to BBQ.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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His head in the orgone...

Really real... Yep, you self publish a journal and then call it peer review... ethical.

Orgone doesn't exist. No one has found it except for those benighted souls with a vested (financial) interest in doing so.

I've pretty well examined the orgone accumulator plans, the ones DeMeo authorizes. They are beer coolers. Insulated wooden boxes. Pack 'em with ice and keep the beer cold all day...

I know it gives you a little stiffy that someone else suggest there is an unknown type of energy out there...and even have pretty much found dark matter via gravitational lensing... but it isn't 'orgone'. Orgone isn't an alternate to Einstein any more than Genesis is an alternative to Darwin. One is reality, one is fantasy. Both fantasies appeal to the uneducated. Both fantasies are packaged and sold to the gullible. And I'm NOT referring to Einstein or Darwin.

I don't really get the whole 'you are being mean to me' attitude. This is a chat forum, the absolute worse I can do is type in harsh language or the dreaded CAPS LOCK... grow up sonny.

 

LC >;-}>
 

Christianity: A disgusting middle eastern blood cult, based in human sacrifice, with sacraments of cannibalism and vampirism, whose highest icon is of a near naked man hanging in torment from a device of torture.


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Vastet wrote:Luminon

Vastet wrote:
Luminon wrote:
Here's the problem, dammit. I never wanted a free pass...~snip
I know, but many of the things you talk about are not exactly common knowledge, and without an organised religion that's causing significant harm to provoke me into challenging it I don't really want to bother researching it. It isn't being pushed in schools, and there aren't and have never been wars fought over it. Even if it is substanceless, as I suspect strongly enough to further discourage my motivation to research obscure things like this, in this capitalist society it is perfectly acceptable to make money off of anything or nothing as long as it isn't illegal. So unless you refer to something I already know about I'm unlikely to bother challenging a post you write.
That's some straight talk. We all have the right to pass by things we're not interested in. I wouldn't even think of commenting on Brian's football or baseball posts or whatever sport the Red skins play. After all, it's jocks out there on that lawn. 

 

Brian37 wrote:

I wasn't accusing you of saying I hate you. Again, this is just as much a benefit for other readers as it is for you. It is all about the attitude of NO CLAIMS getting a free pass. And yes, I do dismiss your claims because the are no more universal than the claims of theists. If they were they would be taught like DNA and mitosis and black holes are in science classes.

I think the argument "if it were true, we'd already know it" is some kind of fallacy. The same argument could be used by bronze smelters about rumors of a new super-metal or bowmen who heard of that chinese boom powder. Science doesn't have the means nor political will to research everything at once. Plus, there is a heavy prejudice towards the ideas, that the unseen world interacts with us. Probably because the ocassional encounters with the invisible world during human history were the cause of most of superstitions and mystical traditions. Our imagination did the rest. But we should never forget, that 95% of the universe is not visible and only 1% of all matter is matter as we know it, the rest is plasma. Therefore, the ordinary materialism of tangible and visible matter is misleading, at best. The scientific public knows about the dark matter and so on, but it still thinks of it as something far away out there, that has nothing to do with us. I say, well, if this part of nature ever can have something to do with us, the life, then it probably had been involved from the very beginning. This idea needs to be seriously tested. 

Brian37 wrote:
 Woo is woo, no matter where it comes from or who claims it. I have even blasted Sam Haris(along with Victor Stinger blasting him "The New Atheism&quotEye-wink for interjecting Buddhism in his claims(Sam Harris).

Skeptics should be soldiers, not in a literal "pick up guns and kill people", but in the verbal sense of demanding a high standard to claims to insure that they are not simple crap people sell.

Scientific standard is a good thing, but it can't be applied relentlessly. There should be a big sign WORK IN PROGRESS above everything I'm doing. I'm gathering evidence and looking for people's insight, not applying for the final judgement. I'm busy as a student and this is only my hobby. My main instrument is my own perception and I am usually the sole observer. I don't have the kind of evidence you want nor means to get it at the moment. I can only post links to those who did a real research along these lines. Or alternatively, zap people 

Brian37 wrote:
 Why shouldn't I defend scientific method? When creationists and IDers continue to dumb down their kids. When a homopathy scam ends up at my mother's retirement home, on top of all the religious politics all over the world with religious people with their hands on weapons, DAMNED RIGHT I am going to question, blaspheme and ridicule.

You have posted stuff here that is just as bad and lacking evidence as a theists claims. That does not make me arrogant or bigoted or hateful. It simply means your claims are not going to get a free pass.

Any ignored woo can grow to be dangerous. The only way to keep that dog on a leash is to question it. 

You're right, but there is a difference between believers who think they have all the answers and someone like me, who's in the middle of a work in progress. The former folks think they're done and they can go preach and proselytize. I am merely attempting to introduce an idea and get some voluntary brainpower of local folks to check my logic and provide insight and generally show themselves smart. Or point me towards greener pastures of information or people who are more competent to judge. I look for something like a peaceful city square of laid-back, ever-curious Athenian philosophers. Instead I've wandered right into Sparta, in the middle of war preparations Smiling

 

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Lum has something of a point with this

 

Luminon wrote:

 

Religion makes skeptics so busy they're like soldiers on the front line. They feel threatened by any outside ideas, so they attack them or defend from them, or ignore them if they're not dangerous.

 

 

Whatever the nature of reality is, it's bound to be a lot weirder than Lum has ever suggested or we can properly conceive. Undertaken in a zone of speculation or hypothesis, there's no reason why absolutely anything shouldn't go. Personally, I don't feel equipped to venture down this particular rabbit hole but if any of you chaps would like to give it a go...

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Louis_Cypher wrote:Ok, you

Louis_Cypher wrote:

Ok, you like Gaelic... we can be friends now.

LC >;-}>

then I hope you get the 'Transatlantic Sessions".

'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.


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Luminon wrote:Vastet

Luminon wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Luminon wrote:
Here's the problem, dammit. I never wanted a free pass...~snip
I know, but many of the things you talk about are not exactly common knowledge, and without an organised religion that's causing significant harm to provoke me into challenging it I don't really want to bother researching it. It isn't being pushed in schools, and there aren't and have never been wars fought over it. Even if it is substanceless, as I suspect strongly enough to further discourage my motivation to research obscure things like this, in this capitalist society it is perfectly acceptable to make money off of anything or nothing as long as it isn't illegal. So unless you refer to something I already know about I'm unlikely to bother challenging a post you write.
That's some straight talk. We all have the right to pass by things we're not interested in. I wouldn't even think of commenting on Brian's football or baseball posts or whatever sport the Red skins play. After all, it's jocks out there on that lawn. 

 

Brian37 wrote:

I wasn't accusing you of saying I hate you. Again, this is just as much a benefit for other readers as it is for you. It is all about the attitude of NO CLAIMS getting a free pass. And yes, I do dismiss your claims because the are no more universal than the claims of theists. If they were they would be taught like DNA and mitosis and black holes are in science classes.

I think the argument "if it were true, we'd already know it" is some kind of fallacy. The same argument could be used by bronze smelters about rumors of a new super-metal or bowmen who heard of that chinese boom powder. Science doesn't have the means nor political will to research everything at once. Plus, there is a heavy prejudice towards the ideas, that the unseen world interacts with us. Probably because the ocassional encounters with the invisible world during human history were the cause of most of superstitions and mystical traditions. Our imagination did the rest. But we should never forget, that 95% of the universe is not visible and only 1% of all matter is matter as we know it, the rest is plasma. Therefore, the ordinary materialism of tangible and visible matter is misleading, at best. The scientific public knows about the dark matter and so on, but it still thinks of it as something far away out there, that has nothing to do with us. I say, well, if this part of nature ever can have something to do with us, the life, then it probably had been involved from the very beginning. This idea needs to be seriously tested. 

Brian37 wrote:
 Woo is woo, no matter where it comes from or who claims it. I have even blasted Sam Haris(along with Victor Stinger blasting him "The New Atheism&quotEye-wink for interjecting Buddhism in his claims(Sam Harris).

Skeptics should be soldiers, not in a literal "pick up guns and kill people", but in the verbal sense of demanding a high standard to claims to insure that they are not simple crap people sell.

Scientific standard is a good thing, but it can't be applied relentlessly. There should be a big sign WORK IN PROGRESS above everything I'm doing. I'm gathering evidence and looking for people's insight, not applying for the final judgement. I'm busy as a student and this is only my hobby. My main instrument is my own perception and I am usually the sole observer. I don't have the kind of evidence you want nor means to get it at the moment. I can only post links to those who did a real research along these lines. Or alternatively, zap people 

Brian37 wrote:
 Why shouldn't I defend scientific method? When creationists and IDers continue to dumb down their kids. When a homopathy scam ends up at my mother's retirement home, on top of all the religious politics all over the world with religious people with their hands on weapons, DAMNED RIGHT I am going to question, blaspheme and ridicule.

You have posted stuff here that is just as bad and lacking evidence as a theists claims. That does not make me arrogant or bigoted or hateful. It simply means your claims are not going to get a free pass.

Any ignored woo can grow to be dangerous. The only way to keep that dog on a leash is to question it. 

You're right, but there is a difference between believers who think they have all the answers and someone like me, who's in the middle of a work in progress. The former folks think they're done and they can go preach and proselytize. I am merely attempting to introduce an idea and get some voluntary brainpower of local folks to check my logic and provide insight and generally show themselves smart. Or point me towards greener pastures of information or people who are more competent to judge. I look for something like a peaceful city square of laid-back, ever-curious Athenian philosophers. Instead I've wandered right into Sparta, in the middle of war preparations Smiling

 

Lum, there is a huge difference between not knowing everything, and jumping gaps. You ARE doing the same thing theists do with the stuff you post. And you fail to see that the people you quote are debunked quacks.

We will never get to see a fraction of the universe even with all we have seen of the universe. But whether it is ancient myth or new age si fi junk, it is still junk.

Your sources are just as important as admitting not knowing. You cant cherry pick stuff because it sounds nice.

NASA as far as space would be a good source. Neil Degrees Tyson would be a good source. And scientific PEER reviewed sources. Not the si fi junk you post.

This is no different than the "biology professor" at Liberty University arguing for the Christian god with his "everthing has a designer". His degree in biology does not entitle him to twist science to suit his bias position.

I don't give you a pass simply because you don't buy the standard popular myths today.

Seriously, if the stuff you post were credible, there would not be anyone here arguing against it. That should tell you something.

Sticking to science is one thing, everyone should defend science. But you have fallen for simply si fi.

 

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oooh my nose

If there's an afterlife I hope I'll still have a penis. A....a....achoo!

Damn, I accidentally sneezed an anti-gravity device! Oh well...

 


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Brian37 wrote:Lum, there is

Brian37 wrote:

Lum, there is a huge difference between not knowing everything, and jumping gaps. You ARE doing the same thing theists do with the stuff you post. And you fail to see that the people you quote are debunked quacks.

Well, I have to jump the gaps, in order to get coherent hypotheses and thereby know what to look for. Which I then look for and sometimes find. Of course, personally. I rarely go beyond the scope of my personal observation. Which is no objective excuse, but subjectively it is quite compelling. Hell, maybe I'm no better than these theists. I just hope the sources I link are better.

As for them being debunked frauds, it doesn't yet seem to me like that. It's not like any of them was ever caught red-handed like Peter Popoff. Your problem seems to be lack of their support from the side of government and academic institutions. You presume, that responsible people cared to examine that research and found it somehow inadequate and so they did not react on requests for journal space and peer reviews. Well, but that may not have anything to do with their merits! For example, the genial inventor and engineer Jacque Fresco, an American, has virtually zero media attention in USA. As if he would not exist. Even if he has projects in Iceland, Mongolia, south America and cooperates with U.N. I think there must be other factors, for example political. If you think politics has nothing to do with science, just remember how smoothly the stem cell research goes on in USA. 

Brian37 wrote:
We will never get to see a fraction of the universe even with all we have seen of the universe. But whether it is ancient myth or new age si fi junk, it is still junk.

Your sources are just as important as admitting not knowing. You cant cherry pick stuff because it sounds nice.

I can't admit not knowing, because in most cases I know from personal observation. All I need is an objective evidential support. But do I really cherry pick stuff? Is there some contrary evidence I avoid? Or lack of evidence? 

Brian37 wrote:
 NASA as far as space would be a good source. Neil Degrees Tyson would be a good source. And scientific PEER reviewed sources. Not the si fi junk you post.
I see. Although here the astrophysics is somewhat inconvenient. This is a multi-disciplinary question of physics, not out there in space, but here in our biosphere with our vital processes. It's such a controversial approach which nobody took seriously since Semjon Kirlian's experiments with coronary discharge and aura. I'd gladly take a famous credible source, only they're... how to say it... so mainstream.

Brian37 wrote:
This is no different than the "biology professor" at Liberty University arguing for the Christian god with his "everthing has a designer". His degree in biology does not entitle him to twist science to suit his bias position.
It is different, in the aspect that some of the people I link do a real research in laboratory and publish results.

Brian37 wrote:
 I don't give you a pass simply because you don't buy the standard popular myths today.

Seriously, if the stuff you post were credible, there would not be anyone here arguing against it. That should tell you something.

Sticking to science is one thing, everyone should defend science. But you have fallen for simply si fi. 

I think the problem here is not as much scientific, but rather sociologic. The problem is, nobody's arguing about the subject itself. Instead, everyone's pointing at what the scientific media say, which is nothing. So what is a credibility? Can someone unheard of be credible? Is it so easy to get a peer review, that those who have too little of it are automatically branded as frauds? Is it so easy to get a space in journals? 

Everywhere it's the personal connections and lobbyism that get you somewhere or nowhere. Only science is supposedly the world of free inquiry, where all claims are weighed equally, where is no black market, no shady dealings, no dissidents, everyone's done justice, there is no intrusion of business, church and political interests. So anyone who's not popular with this apex of perfection, must have something wrong with him. Is this what you say and can this be called skepticism? Hell, maybe my thinking is influenced by the rampant corruption in my state, which has the most expensive highways in the world. 

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Louis_Cypher wrote:Really

Louis_Cypher wrote:

Really real... Yep, you self publish a journal and then call it peer review... ethical.

Orgone doesn't exist. No one has found it except for those benighted souls with a vested (financial) interest in doing so.

I've pretty well examined the orgone accumulator plans, the ones DeMeo authorizes. They are beer coolers. Insulated wooden boxes. Pack 'em with ice and keep the beer cold all day...

You know what you can do with orgone accumulator plans. They're made of goddamn paper. You won't know from them if that thing itself works or not. But you can take a road trip to Oregon and check it out for yourself. See the experiments, sit in the box to see if it makes you any more vital, try the life energy meter and even look at the anomalous orgone-charged blue glowing vacuum tube that JDM has. 

Louis_Cypher wrote:
 I know it gives you a little stiffy that someone else suggest there is an unknown type of energy out there...and even have pretty much found dark matter via gravitational lensing... but it isn't 'orgone'. Orgone isn't an alternate to Einstein any more than Genesis is an alternative to Darwin. One is reality, one is fantasy. Both fantasies appeal to the uneducated. Both fantasies are packaged and sold to the gullible. And I'm NOT referring to Einstein or Darwin.
No, I don't just think there is some unknown energy out ther. I'm even "crazier" than that. We've been over this here many times. The point is, I claim with all my keyboard that I'm one of these folks for whom this energy is tangible. If you look at these Hindu or Theosophic charts of subtle body, chakra and meridian stuff, I perceive it and a little more than that.

No, the natural explanations don't fit here and no, it isn't a desire for attention either. But I still know very little of what's going on and it drives me crazy with curiosity. I search all sources that have something to say on this topic. And sometimes I find something that's not a total crap. Maybe in the future when I'll have a greater freedom than now I'll get my head scanned and I'll figure out how it works. Where do these interactive sensations come from. Because there isn't any apparent source, no medical condition, nothing like that. So I search. If I'm a believer, I'm a believer in myself, in what I observe and what I'm doing.

Louis_Cypher wrote:
 I don't really get the whole 'you are being mean to me' attitude. This is a chat forum, the absolute worse I can do is type in harsh language or the dreaded CAPS LOCK... grow up sonny.

LC >;-}>

Well, this is really a formal remark. If anything, you could behave a little more mature. The point is, all around the atheism movement they talk about "attacking the dogma, not the people" and that "belief is not important, it's the reasons why they believe". And all the other things, how they call creatards creatards and this attitude of "I'm smarter than you" harms the atheist public image. We should be unapologetic, but not jerks. Mocking and blaspheming is good for you, it's therapeutic and great fun too, but this is not how we win the public on our side. Well, and then there's you, who behaves as if they didn't send you the memo. 

Btw, here's some food for thought for you to chew on. Brian might join you as well. Is this what you want from a reliable scientific source? 

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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Grow up sonny....

Yes they are plans...and I CAN read them. Further, I have enough construction experience, biology background and electronics education to be able to say catagoricaly that anything built using those plans would be a fucking glorified beer cooler...
It's a fraud.
 

Oooooo the 'life energy meter'... wow, that cinches it... because someone relabels an FE Meter and tells the rubes that it measures 'life energy' (very fucking funny, Mr Scott, now beam down my pants...)

And a vacuum tube...that glows BLUE... why didn't you say so, that changes everything. Gee, you really ARE gullible, aren't you?

Yes, and I once ran over my dogma with my karma... I had to get my Chakra's realigned...

I have to say it up front and clearly... You are a new age wanker...a fucking loon.
Should I put that in all caps so you can feel oppressed?

 

LC >;-}>

Christianity: A disgusting middle eastern blood cult, based in human sacrifice, with sacraments of cannibalism and vampirism, whose highest icon is of a near naked man hanging in torment from a device of torture.


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Louis_Cypher wrote:Yes they

Louis_Cypher wrote:

Yes they are plans...and I CAN read them. Further, I have enough construction experience, biology background and electronics education to be able to say catagoricaly that anything built using those plans would be a fucking glorified beer cooler...
It's a fraud.

That doesn't exactly fall into your experience, the construction is simple, it has nothing to do with electronics and only little more with biology. Don't be afraid to say you don't know.
 

Louis_Cypher wrote:
 Oooooo the 'life energy meter'... wow, that cinches it... because someone relabels an FE Meter and tells the rubes that it measures 'life energy' (very fucking funny, Mr Scott, now beam down my pants...) 
What the hell is FE meter? I have some education in electronics but never heard of it. Anyway, all that the life energy meter does is projecting a displacement current field and measuring how much it drops in presence of certain objects. It happens to react mainly to living objects in direct proportion to their aliveness. It should not react to static charge or any other ordinary parameter. Does that mean anything with your expertise? 

Probably not, you've never heard of it, never thought of such an effect and you don't feel like starting that now, Mr. armchair skeptic.

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Really????

Quote:
That doesn't exactly fall into your experience, the construction is simple, it has nothing to do with electronics and only little more with biology. Don't be afraid to say you don't know.

I think I can claim as much expertise in construction as a Geologist can claim in quantum mechanics... (more in fact, I've actually BUILT things )
But I think it's cool that you believe that one doesn't need no stinkin' multi-billion dollar particle accelerator to unlock the basic forces of the universe, a plywood box will do...

Quote:
What the hell is FE meter?

Field Effect Meter.
 

Quote:
Anyway, all that the life energy meter does is projecting a displacement current field and measuring how much it drops in presence of certain objects.

 

Odd, that's the same thing a Metal Detector does... I guess it sounds cooler in Newage-ese.

 

 

Quote:
It happens to react mainly to living objects in direct proportion to their aliveness.

 

< snigger > No really... in direct proportion to their 'aliveness'? So if one is only partially alive... marginally alive... nearly alive...it will read different???

Dude... you are just plain batshit loony....

 

LC >;-}>




 

Christianity: A disgusting middle eastern blood cult, based in human sacrifice, with sacraments of cannibalism and vampirism, whose highest icon is of a near naked man hanging in torment from a device of torture.


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Beyond the graveyard and other postmortem adventures

 We seem to be ignoring "the great cloud of witnesses".

Curious:  some very primitive gravesites indicate a belief in afterlife.  The pyramids of Egypt are a good example.  Many seem a bit confused about the details; but there is still a preponderance of evidence that the tomb of Jesus is empty, Him having resurrected from the dead.  This fact is attested by Romans, Jews and True Christians (most of that which is called Christian is nominal).  Hundreds saw Him alive after having been killed and buried in a tomb guarded by Roman soldiers.  This is a pivotal point of this cosmos.  That is either true or untrue.  Jesus is exactly who He claims to be or He is the greatest imposter ever.  This is the greatest witness.

We are without excuse.

Peace,

Conundrum

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You begin with an appeal to

You begin with an appeal to popularity. Then you follow it with a blatant assertion. And conclude with a false dilemma.

No logic was found.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Let me get my hip waders, the bullshit is getting deep.

Quote:
Curious:  some very primitive gravesites indicate a belief in afterlife.  The pyramids of Egypt are a good example.

And we need to accept what a primitive believed because...?

Quote:
but there is still a preponderance of evidence that the tomb of Jesus is empty, Him having resurrected from the dead.

This is a lie. There is no 'evidence' whatsoever.

Quote:
This fact is attested by Romans, Jews and True Christians

This too is a lie. No Romans whatsoever made any such attestation. A few Jewish/Christian writers of the bible told the story.

Quote:
Hundreds saw Him alive after having been killed and buried in a tomb guarded by Roman soldiers.

One writer saying hundreds saw something doesn't mean hundreds saw anything... sad that you don't understand this crucial difference.

Quote:
Jesus is exactly who He claims to be or He is the greatest imposter ever.

Imposter. A sad little lunatic who perhaps did get lynched.

 

I don't need an excuse.

LC >;-}>

 

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There is evidence for "life

There is evidence for "life after death."  Apparently, you are oblivious to the evidence of NDEs.

 

"Scientists animated by the purpose of proving they are purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study." - Alfred North Whitehead


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Paisley wrote:There is

Paisley wrote:

There is evidence for "life after death."  Apparently, you are oblivious to the evidence of NDEs.

 

 

 

 

                                              Move over FurryCatHerder, you're just an amateur panentheist, Paisley will take over from here.

 

 

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No...

Paisley wrote:

There is evidence for "life after death."  Apparently, you are oblivious to the evidence of NDEs.

 

No, I'm not. Are you oblivious to the fact that they are experienced regularly by Astronauts and Test Pilots who are engaged in the high speed centrifuge training? It seems that when one hits a certain 'G' force and the blood is forced from the brain... they get the Tunnel vision, the euphoria and the whole NDE experience... Hmmmm, I wonder if that indicates a purely physical cause?

LC >;-}>

 

Christianity: A disgusting middle eastern blood cult, based in human sacrifice, with sacraments of cannibalism and vampirism, whose highest icon is of a near naked man hanging in torment from a device of torture.


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Paisley wrote: Apparently,

Paisley wrote:
Apparently, you are oblivious to the evidence of NDEs.

Apparently you're oblivious to the fact you've already been completely refuted.

Nothing to see here.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.