In response to religion negatively affecting peoples lives

Tapey
atheist
Tapey's picture
Posts: 1474
Joined: 2009-01-23
User is offlineOffline
In response to religion negatively affecting peoples lives

I was going to post this in this thread

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/30676

but considering it is not a negative story it is not appropriate yet I do think it needs to be said. I just don't want to go off topic in the thread. Just treat this as A response to that thread.

 

 

I know this is not exactly what is wanted in this thread but in the interest of balance and not only presenting one side of the coin. Threads like these cause misunderstandings which lead theists to believe that all atheists are atheists because they have had a bad experience with religion and they would believe if they did not have that experience.

 

I had a positive experience with religion, my parents raised me christian. I was never left with the impression that I would burn for ever in hell if I did one thing wrong. Hell my church pretty much said that good people go to heaven christian or not. My parents never forced me to attend church, they gave me the choice to come or not and I chose to go when I believed. I never felt coerced to believe or continue believing when I stopped going to church and stopped believing. My parents messed up in plenty ways but religion really was not one of those areas imo.

Beyond my childhood sure I have run into some nasty pieces of work but I cannot say any of them have negatively affected my life. If you say religion I cannot think of a way I have been negatively affected. I would go so far as to say religion has been a positive force in my life.

How closely what I was raised as to christianity is traditionally meant to be is irrelevant, no matter what, it was religion, and I think it was positive on the whole.

 

The point of this story is I think it is important to keep in mind that not every atheist has some horror story about religion. I also think it is important for atheists to realize that religion does not have to be a negative thing (beyond creating belief in something which doesn't exist). I mean at the end of the day religion is nothing more than a community with common beliefs.

Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
No animal shall wear clothes.
No animal shall sleep in a bed.
No animal shall drink alcohol.
No animal shall kill any other animal.
All animals are equal.


Jeffrick
High Level DonorRational VIP!SuperfanGold Member
Jeffrick's picture
Posts: 2386
Joined: 2008-03-25
User is onlineOnline
I get it Tapey.

I don't have any horror story's from my 'religious' childhood,  I was never realy religious and my religious mother and siblings never bothered me about it, being the oldest son likely had something to do with that dynamic; father was the most UN-religious person you could meet, It was like in 70+ years he never noticed there was religion in the world.

 

What good came to me from religion? Education.   Parochial schools are more advanced then public schools, when I transfered to public school, grade 4, I was suddenly the  smartest kid in class, I was doing work I had done already a year or two before. The work was easy and I was getting board. I managed to contunually piss off my fifth grade teacher because in math I would write down the answers without the work. Because in catholic school the nun teaching 1st & 2nd grade taught us tricks to do the math in our heads. She didn't care about how we got to the answer as long as we got the answer right. The 5th grade teacher wanted to see the work.

By 7th grade I had dumbed down to my peer group, but I still had some tricks and study basics left over from catholic school that kept me slightly above my class mates. I still use some of those tricks today. [edit][ Mod help needed. I clearly finnished school before computers and the internet.

### mod fix format

"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."

VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"

If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?


harleysportster
atheist
harleysportster's picture
Posts: 3311
Joined: 2010-10-17
User is offlineOffline
Tapey wrote:  The point of

Tapey wrote:

 

 

The point of this story is I think it is important to keep in mind that not every atheist has some horror story about religion. I also think it is important for atheists to realize that religion does not have to be a negative thing (beyond creating belief in something which doesn't exist). I mean at the end of the day religion is nothing more than a community with common beliefs.

Truth to be told, I don't think I remember any of the Atheist Four Horsemen, Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris and Dennett ever mentioning a bad experience with religion.

I know that Hitchens has never mentioned it.

Me personally, I had a bad experience with religion. Now, I am not going to repeat it again here, as I have mentioned it so many times on other threads.

I agree that not every Atheist has a bad experience with religion. Some people just come from very secular homes and have never been exposed to it. Others, like you Tapey, have come from ordinary homes and just came to realize there is no god.

 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13600
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
The point of of how religion

The point of of how religion negatively affects people isn't to say that people don't have positive experiences. The placebo of socializing can have a positive effect. I can't tell you how exciting it was when 30,000 promotional seat cushions handed out at a NFC Championship game between the Redskins and the Falcons, back in the 1980s ended up on the field in the 4th quarter when I knew as a Redskins fan, attending that game, we were going to win the game and go to the Super Bowl. It was a celebration of a storm of seat cushions.

I attended a Unitarian Church in Lynchburg Virgina 10 years ago. That was a positive experience for me because it was the first time as an open atheist outside College that I met other atheists. But it will never make the gods of the other church goers real no matter how much I valued their acceptance and companionship.

The reason we need to put these stories out, is not to oppress believers, but to allow those EVEN BELIEVERS, not to feel alone if oppressed by other believers. Gays and non-Shiites in Iran can tell you that they have more in common with us than they do with their government.

But the main reason is simply to say, you do not deserve a pedestal or a taboo. Labels do not prevent people from doing horrible things to others.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


harleysportster
atheist
harleysportster's picture
Posts: 3311
Joined: 2010-10-17
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote:The point of

Brian37 wrote:

The point of of how religion negatively affects people isn't to say that people don't have positive experiences. The placebo of socializing can have a positive effect. I can't tell you how exciting it was when 30,000 promotional seat cushions handed out at a NFC Championship game between the Redskins and the Falcons, back in the 1980s ended up on the field in the 4th quarter when I knew as a Redskins fan, attending that game, we were going to win the game and go to the Super Bowl. It was a celebration of a storm of seat cushions.

I attended a Unitarian Church in Lynchburg Virgina 10 years ago. That was a positive experience for me because it was the first time as an open atheist outside College that I met other atheists. But it will never make the gods of the other church goers real no matter how much I valued their acceptance and companionship.

The reason we need to put these stories out, is not to oppress believers, but to allow those EVEN BELIEVERS, not to feel alone if oppressed by other believers. Gays and non-Shiites in Iran can tell you that they have more in common with us than they do with their government.

But the main reason is simply to say, you do not deserve a pedestal or a taboo. Labels do not prevent people from doing horrible things to others.

 

I think your on to something there.

Humans are social creatures and are naturally going to feel alot better, when they can be in a type of fellowship.

That was one of my biggest problems when I realized I was an Atheist. There was no one around me, in family or in friends, that thought like me.

I got alot of ridicule.

I seriously wondered if I was just going crazy and all these other people were right about me.

Finding sites like these was like, EUREKA, there are other people out there that think like me, there are other people out there and they are NOT mentally ill.

Finding Atheist web pages were a greater experience in my life than all the books could ever be.

Because, no matter how many books a person can read, it can still make you feel like your going crazy when you are surrounded by people that are telling you how evil,sinful and insane that you are.

I may dislike irrational, organized religious claims. But me personally, I don't hate religious people. I just dislike it when they try to use society and law to make everyone believe as they do.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13600
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Quote:I may dislike

Quote:
I may dislike irrational, organized religious claims. But me personally, I don't hate religious people. I just dislike it when they try to use society and law to make everyone believe as they do.

As long as our species exists, there will always be a potential for one label of political party or religion or even atheists to set up a fascist state.

Dont get me wrong, I am of the position that god belief is not needed to live life. But our species has to get passed the idea of utopias. We don't like it when Muslims, Jews, Christians and even political monopolies are set up. I don't think while trying to ween humans off of Santa for adults we should force a utopia either on a planet of 7 billion.

Evolution isn't about perfection it is only about getting to the point of reproduction.

The believer says "love the sinner not the sin"

I say, "love the claimant not the claim"

Humans should have dignity, not through taboos, but through openness and scrutiny in our common condition.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


FurryCatHerder
Theist
FurryCatHerder's picture
Posts: 1253
Joined: 2007-06-02
User is offlineOffline
Thanks for starting this

Thanks for starting this thread.  I've wanted to post to the other, and probably will eventually, but the best thing religion ever did for me was keeping me from offing myself as a teen.  It also ended what was the darkest time in my entire life -- a stretch of at least two years that can only be described as In The Pit of Hell.

I went through some horrible sh*t when I was a pre-teen.  Things that NO ONE EVER should have to go through.  The end result was that for several years I'd go to sleep and pray not to wake up the next day.  This went on, almost every night, for several years.  I still believed in Hell and was convincd that if I actually killed myself, I'd go to Hell.  Which seemed like a really bad idea.

One day I ran into a Charismatic Christian couple who wanted to know if I'd accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior.  I said yes, they invited me to their church.  The minister of the Church we'd been attending as a family preached very watered down Christianity.  I think the head minister (we had two) had even said on more than one occasion that he didn't actually believe in G-d.  Some parts of what they taught at my parent's church I agreed with -- good people go to Heaven, too -- and some parts I disagreed with.  I didn't feel safe telling the minister what was going on in my head because my parents had already shown their indifference, and I'm sure he'd have told them.

This was my first chance to find a new church, so I went.  And somehow or other I actually liked going and stopped going to sleep each night hoping to wake up dead the next morning.  The new church was much bigger on the praying and spirituality aspects, and less on the sitting for an hour and being lectured by the minister and entertained by the choir.  It was a nice church, up until the point where I realized they viewed G-d as the source of All Free Things, including things they could have fixed themselves by simply passing the plate.

Perhaps the best thing about leaving my parent's church was they couldn't =exactly= keep tabs on how far I was deviating from normative Christianity.  Dad and I had always had religious debates before then, but afterwards I'd wandered off into a more "spiritual" (read: Jesus Freak) direction and Dad stopped bothering for the most part.  We'd still get into debates, but he'd been more mainstream Christian his entire life and I wasn't exactly during that time.  By 18 I'd discovered the joy that is Pentecostal Christian hypocrisy and I left the church completely for a couple of years.  I found another church in college, then starting dating a deacon a few months out of college and we wound up going to church together up until we split and I moved to where I live now.

So, I'm still alive today, all thanks to Jesus.

Except that, you know, I ran off and became a JEW!

 

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13600
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
FurryCatHerder wrote:Thanks

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Thanks for starting this thread.  I've wanted to post to the other, and probably will eventually, but the best thing religion ever did for me was keeping me from offing myself as a teen.  It also ended what was the darkest time in my entire life -- a stretch of at least two years that can only be described as In The Pit of Hell.

I went through some horrible sh*t when I was a pre-teen.  Things that NO ONE EVER should have to go through.  The end result was that for several years I'd go to sleep and pray not to wake up the next day.  This went on, almost every night, for several years.  I still believed in Hell and was convincd that if I actually killed myself, I'd go to Hell.  Which seemed like a really bad idea.

One day I ran into a Charismatic Christian couple who wanted to know if I'd accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior.  I said yes, they invited me to their church.  The minister of the Church we'd been attending as a family preached very watered down Christianity.  I think the head minister (we had two) had even said on more than one occasion that he didn't actually believe in G-d.  Some parts of what they taught at my parent's church I agreed with -- good people go to Heaven, too -- and some parts I disagreed with.  I didn't feel safe telling the minister what was going on in my head because my parents had already shown their indifference, and I'm sure he'd have told them.

This was my first chance to find a new church, so I went.  And somehow or other I actually liked going and stopped going to sleep each night hoping to wake up dead the next morning.  The new church was much bigger on the praying and spirituality aspects, and less on the sitting for an hour and being lectured by the minister and entertained by the choir.  It was a nice church, up until the point where I realized they viewed G-d as the source of All Free Things, including things they could have fixed themselves by simply passing the plate.

Perhaps the best thing about leaving my parent's church was they couldn't =exactly= keep tabs on how far I was deviating from normative Christianity.  Dad and I had always had religious debates before then, but afterwards I'd wandered off into a more "spiritual" (read: Jesus Freak) direction and Dad stopped bothering for the most part.  We'd still get into debates, but he'd been more mainstream Christian his entire life and I wasn't exactly during that time.  By 18 I'd discovered the joy that is Pentecostal Christian hypocrisy and I left the church completely for a couple of years.  I found another church in college, then starting dating a deacon a few months out of college and we wound up going to church together up until we split and I moved to where I live now.

So, I'm still alive today, all thanks to Jesus.

Except that, you know, I ran off and became a JEW!

 

You are alive because you bought a placebo. The truth is you would have accepted help from anyone and the truth is they victimized YOU by selling you that myth at your most vulnerable point.

Placebos can work but that does not make them real. YOU are the real reason you are alive today. You simply used that placebo story as a crutch.

It had the positive affect of helping you cope, but it had the negative affect of causing you to be a victim of others selling you that myth.

It seems to me that you did what I did, you sought acceptance and each time you found acceptance you found out that those in that group were human, but didn't want to see nature for what it is because you don't want to associate with bad people.

The truth is that will never happen. Good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people. You say you are Jewish now. Are you going to give up on that too when you find a hypocrite Jew? I can certainly look at Israel and find some of their individuals and some of there politicians and some of their actions as assholish.

Joining clubs is a stupid reason to believe in a god. Depression is not a good reason to believe in a god. "I'm special" is not a reason to believe in a god.

We would not want you to become an "atheist" just because you find some of us cool, or just to be cool, or just to feel part of something. Or just to say "we are not hypocrites"

Evidence, not emotions, not clubs, not fitting in, EVIDENCE.

I think you need to see humans as individuals "Jew" DOESNT make your god real nor does it make you special, nor does it make you good or bad.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


EXC
atheist
EXC's picture
Posts: 3139
Joined: 2008-01-17
User is offlineOffline
Tapey wrote: Hell my church

Tapey wrote:

 Hell my church pretty much said that good people go to heaven christian or not.

This is still coersion because they are the one's to define what is 'good'. They are still trying to control your behavior with threats. It is the equivalent of a business that makes false promises that they don't know they can deliver upon.

Tapey wrote:

My parents messed up in plenty ways but religion really was not one of those areas imo.

But one of the ways religion(probably this church too) sells itself is with 'family values' with creating strong, happy families and teaching parents to be good parents. Obviously, this church didn't live up to it's claims otherwise your parents wouldn't have messed up so much. When your family had problems, why didn't your parents go the pastors and get good advise on how not to mess up? All religions sell themselves as experts on raising children, treating depression, stress and anger when they are not. They sell  parents snake oil.

My hope is that an atheist church would provide parents advise based on what works in the real world. That advise would be based on scientific evidence rather than ancient books with a lot of inaccurate facts in them.

My parents thought they were doing the right thing by sending me to church and Catholic school, that this was about all they needed to do. So they never looked for help from rational science.

Tapey wrote:

The point of this story is I think it is important to keep in mind that not every atheist has some horror story about religion. I also think it is important for atheists to realize that religion does not have to be a negative thing (beyond creating belief in something which doesn't exist). I mean at the end of the day religion is nothing more than a community with common beliefs.

 But this church failed in some ways, right? Otherwise you'd still be going?

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


FurryCatHerder
Theist
FurryCatHerder's picture
Posts: 1253
Joined: 2007-06-02
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote:FurryCatHerder

Brian37 wrote:

FurryCatHerder wrote:

So, I'm still alive today, all thanks to Jesus.

Except that, you know, I ran off and became a JEW!

You are alive because you bought a placebo. The truth is you would have accepted help from anyone and the truth is they victimized YOU by selling you that myth at your most vulnerable point.

Your extreme lack of reading comprehension strikes again.

No, I'd have stayed alive, and extremely miserable, if I hadn't met them.  If I hadn't believed in Hell, I'd be dead.  Absolutely no doubt.  At some point between 10 and 12 or 13, I'd have killed myself.

Would I have accepted help from anyone?  Not if they were offering "Help".  Part of what happened before that time was that my sense of "trust" for people who =should= have helped was destroyed.  They were just a nice couple who offered me an outlet to explore religious beliefs that were already well formed and rapidly veering off from what the church I attended with my family taught.  I'd long since "drunk the Kool-Aid", in other words.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13600
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
FurryCatHerder wrote:Brian37

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

FurryCatHerder wrote:

So, I'm still alive today, all thanks to Jesus.

Except that, you know, I ran off and became a JEW!

You are alive because you bought a placebo. The truth is you would have accepted help from anyone and the truth is they victimized YOU by selling you that myth at your most vulnerable point.

Your extreme lack of reading comprehension strikes again.

No, I'd have stayed alive, and extremely miserable, if I hadn't met them.  If I hadn't believed in Hell, I'd be dead.  Absolutely no doubt.  At some point between 10 and 12 or 13, I'd have killed myself.

Would I have accepted help from anyone?  Not if they were offering "Help".  Part of what happened before that time was that my sense of "trust" for people who =should= have helped was destroyed.  They were just a nice couple who offered me an outlet to explore religious beliefs that were already well formed and rapidly veering off from what the church I attended with my family taught.  I'd long since "drunk the Kool-Aid", in other words.

I have no doubt you felt those emotions. But again ,YOU and other humans got you through it. Fear of hell and them being religious, and your indoctrination of those things was a crutch placebo. You don't want to give yourself a lick of credit? I give you all the credit, not fictional places or fictional beings.

Do you think you are the only human in history to suffer depression on a planet of 7 billion? . My mom flipped her van years ago because I was too lazy to go out and do the chore for her. You can ask Bob Spence here how depressed and scared I was. You think I didn't get depressed and feel guilt. You think I didn't want to kill myself? And that wasn't the only time. She was in the hospital for a bought of pneumonia for a week. That scared the shit out of me too.

BUT my own desire to live and my support group of friends and co-workers and especially Bob Spence here got me through it.

You do not have a monopoly on pain and suffering. No human does, not you not me. But,when you place your survival on fictional beings you demean yourself and you demean my story and everyone else who has gone through what you and I have gone through.

And I was raised in religion. I had far more emotional baggage and depression then then than I do now. Depression is a human condition, not the result of kissing the wrong god's ass or not praying enough. I survived for one reason only, because I wanted to.

I still love life and life still gets tough sometimes, but I don't pawn any good or bad emotion I have on fictional beings. I simply recognize them and deal with them the best I can.

Emotions are a result of our collective life experiences and manifest as electrochemical reactions to stimuli in our brains. People who suffer depression are not suffering it because of a man with a pitchfork or a man with a white robe battling over the neurons in your head. It is merely a medical psychological condition.

I am sure you believed in hell and I am sure the people at that church wanted to help you because they believed that too. But the REAL help was your desire to survive and their real actions, not their words or the god they sold you. Otherwise if surviving depression depended on a god, why am I still here?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


FurryCatHerder
Theist
FurryCatHerder's picture
Posts: 1253
Joined: 2007-06-02
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote:FurryCatHerder

Brian37 wrote:

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

You are alive because you bought a placebo. The truth is you would have accepted help from anyone and the truth is they victimized YOU by selling you that myth at your most vulnerable point.

Your extreme lack of reading comprehension strikes again.

No, I'd have stayed alive, and extremely miserable, if I hadn't met them.  If I hadn't believed in Hell, I'd be dead.  Absolutely no doubt.  At some point between 10 and 12 or 13, I'd have killed myself.

Would I have accepted help from anyone?  Not if they were offering "Help".  Part of what happened before that time was that my sense of "trust" for people who =should= have helped was destroyed.  They were just a nice couple who offered me an outlet to explore religious beliefs that were already well formed and rapidly veering off from what the church I attended with my family taught.  I'd long since "drunk the Kool-Aid", in other words.

I have no doubt you felt those emotions. But again ,YOU and other humans got you through it. Fear of hell and them being religious, and your indoctrination of those things was a crutch placebo. You don't want to give yourself a lick of credit? I give you all the credit, not fictional places or fictional beings.

Brian,

I know it for a fact because I was fortunate enough to learn that too many suicide attempts end in failure before I stopped believing in Hell.  If the order had been reversed, I'd have gotten a rope, tossed it over a beam in the attic, put it around my neck, and stepped off whatever ladder I used.  The great thing about having an engineering background is I understand the whole "impact loading" thing.

Really, for someone who rails against "religion" because religion tells people what to think or do, how about you not tell me what I was thinking, or why I did or didn't do what I did or didn't do.  It's just plain rude.  No, it's worse that rude, it's insulting.  I've never, not once (unless I was being sarcastic, which I've been known to be from time to time ...) told you that the only reason you don't believe in G-d is because Magic Sky Santa didn't bring you enough prezzies for Christmas.  So kindly don't tell me the Atheist equivalent of why I believe in G-d.

Do you know what's really funny?  If I tell this story on Christian boards, I get told it's proof that Jesus loves me.  No, it's not proof of anything of the sort.  It's proof that I had parents who tried to solve problems by ignoring them, or telling =me= to ignore them.

And because you lack reading comprehension, I'll spell this bit out more clearly -- the people at that church did =nothing= to help me with depression.  They didn't take away the causes of it, they didn't "counsel" me, they didn't do anything.  I could have joined a crafts making club and found people who weren't terrorists and it would have had the same effect.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13600
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
FurryCatHerder wrote:Brian37

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

You are alive because you bought a placebo. The truth is you would have accepted help from anyone and the truth is they victimized YOU by selling you that myth at your most vulnerable point.

Your extreme lack of reading comprehension strikes again.

No, I'd have stayed alive, and extremely miserable, if I hadn't met them.  If I hadn't believed in Hell, I'd be dead.  Absolutely no doubt.  At some point between 10 and 12 or 13, I'd have killed myself.

Would I have accepted help from anyone?  Not if they were offering "Help".  Part of what happened before that time was that my sense of "trust" for people who =should= have helped was destroyed.  They were just a nice couple who offered me an outlet to explore religious beliefs that were already well formed and rapidly veering off from what the church I attended with my family taught.  I'd long since "drunk the Kool-Aid", in other words.

I have no doubt you felt those emotions. But again ,YOU and other humans got you through it. Fear of hell and them being religious, and your indoctrination of those things was a crutch placebo. You don't want to give yourself a lick of credit? I give you all the credit, not fictional places or fictional beings.

Brian,

I know it for a fact because I was fortunate enough to learn that too many suicide attempts end in failure before I stopped believing in Hell.  If the order had been reversed, I'd have gotten a rope, tossed it over a beam in the attic, put it around my neck, and stepped off whatever ladder I used.  The great thing about having an engineering background is I understand the whole "impact loading" thing.

Really, for someone who rails against "religion" because religion tells people what to think or do, how about you not tell me what I was thinking, or why I did or didn't do what I did or didn't do.  It's just plain rude.  No, it's worse that rude, it's insulting.  I've never, not once (unless I was being sarcastic, which I've been known to be from time to time ...) told you that the only reason you don't believe in G-d is because Magic Sky Santa didn't bring you enough prezzies for Christmas.  So kindly don't tell me the Atheist equivalent of why I believe in G-d.

Do you know what's really funny?  If I tell this story on Christian boards, I get told it's proof that Jesus loves me.  No, it's not proof of anything of the sort.  It's proof that I had parents who tried to solve problems by ignoring them, or telling =me= to ignore them.

You are looking at my finger while I am pointing at the moon. The believe in hell was a placebo. The fact that you stopped believing in hell does not change that. You simply replaced on distraction with another to act as a coping mechanism.

I rail against all superstitious claims, not just yours and not just religion.

If I had ignored my depression instead of dealing with it I would have killed myself . Humans brains widely very when suffering depression and people cope with it in different ways. So for FOR ME AND ME ONLY it took simply venting to friends, I consider myself lucky. For others it can mean professional clinical(not the religious bullshit) AND EVEN medication The support is what does it, not super heros, not super villains.

If religion always worked in curing depression there would be no suicide. And no one in these religious programs would backslide.

Why do you believe? The short answer is that you want to. The idea of being protected by a super hero appeals to you. That belief did get you through, but "belief" DOES NOT CONSTITUTE THE GOD BEING REAL, it just means you used the belief as a coping mechanism.

The biological evolutionary answer is that humans evolved with the flaw of filling in gaps when answers lack.It is merely the anthropomorphic reflection of an infant wanting to be protected by it's parents. If humans didn't have parents we wouldn't evolve. It is the flaw of anthropomorphism in projecting human qualities on the world around us.

No sane shrink attributes depression to invisible super heros or super villains fighting over the neurons in your brain.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


FurryCatHerder
Theist
FurryCatHerder's picture
Posts: 1253
Joined: 2007-06-02
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote:You are

Brian37 wrote:

You are looking at my finger while I am pointing at the moon. The believe in hell was a placebo. The fact that you stopped believing in hell does not change that. You simply replaced on distraction with another to act as a coping mechanism.

You're really being very rude.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


EXC
atheist
EXC's picture
Posts: 3139
Joined: 2008-01-17
User is offlineOffline
FurryCatHerder wrote:No,

FurryCatHerder wrote:

No, it's worse that rude, it's insulting.  I've never, not once (unless I was being sarcastic, which I've been known to be from time to time ...) told you that the only reason you don't believe in G-d is because Magic Sky Santa didn't bring you enough prezzies for Christmas.  So kindly don't tell me the Atheist equivalent of why I believe in G-d.

Why would any of us be insulted? I'm sure if we saw flying Raindeer and a fat old guy comming down the chimney to deliver presents, we'd start believing in Santa after exhasting other explainations. Beliefs should change with evidence, right?

 

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

You are looking at my finger while I am pointing at the moon. The believe in hell was a placebo. The fact that you stopped believing in hell does not change that. You simply replaced on distraction with another to act as a coping mechanism.

You're really being very rude.

Maybe he is being very blunt, but are you actually disputing the science behind the link between depression and delusions:

http://www.healthyplace.com/depression/main/psychotic-depression/menu-id-68/

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


FurryCatHerder
Theist
FurryCatHerder's picture
Posts: 1253
Joined: 2007-06-02
User is offlineOffline
EXC wrote:FurryCatHerder

EXC wrote:

FurryCatHerder wrote:

No, it's worse that rude, it's insulting.  I've never, not once (unless I was being sarcastic, which I've been known to be from time to time ...) told you that the only reason you don't believe in G-d is because Magic Sky Santa didn't bring you enough prezzies for Christmas.  So kindly don't tell me the Atheist equivalent of why I believe in G-d.

Why would any of us be insulted? I'm sure if we saw flying Raindeer and a fat old guy comming down the chimney to deliver presents, we'd start believing in Santa after exhasting other explainations. Beliefs should change with evidence, right?

I don't know why you'd be insulted, or not.  What I do know is that I generally don't tell other people that what they are thinking is wrong, then after being corrected, persist.

Why I was so screwed up as a kid is pretty private info, but let's just say that certain moral advice, repeated over and over again, resulted in being severely messed up, which was then compounded by being told to just ignore it.  Oh, and then being given the same moral advice, over and over and over again, all of which resulted in being triggered, over and over and over again, with no channel to vent, especially since Hell seemed like a Really Bad Place, compared to being abused on a routine basis.

See, that's what was so yummy about that time -- I had no functional escape.  My parents wouldn't do squat, I got to where I couldn't trust anyone, =and=, to make matters worse, I believed suicide would land me in Hell.  If G-d had just arranged so I didn't wake up the next day, it wouldn't have been my fault, and no going to Hell.  Do you think I believe G-d answers prayers?  Would "No" be the correct answer?

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


FurryCatHerder
Theist
FurryCatHerder's picture
Posts: 1253
Joined: 2007-06-02
User is offlineOffline
Ah!  Five minutes to relax

Ah!  Five minutes to relax before chaos again.

What happened in my family is there was too much abuse going on.  Not my parents, for the most part, though my father believed discipline should be handed out liberally.  It was =other= family members and whenever I went to my parents, I was told either to "deal with it" or if it was something too severe for "dealing with", I should "forgive" the other person.

Now, you'll note that most of the Bible is stuffed inside my head somewhere, and I seemed to recall that Jesus, at some point in time, said that if you harmed someone, you were go to and ask for forgiveness.  This part, of course, was IGNORED.

This wasn't a little abuse either, but the big stuff.  Bad enough stuff that after becoming an adult I looked into the statute of limitations because I was out for my pound of flesh.

One of the attractions of Judaism, other than being pure monotheism, is that in Judaism, if you harm someone, you have to get their forgiveness.  And, they don't have to give it.  They can say "I can't deal with this right now" or "I'm still getting over it" or "I don't think you've changed" and that's just the way that is.  You have to clean up your messes yourself.  G-d absolutely, positively, period, no exceptions, cannot forgive you for a sin against another human being.  It just doesn't work that way.

So, that's one of the ways Christianity, at least, seriously screwed me up.  Because if I'd been able to say "That family member hasn't changed, I don't forgive them." I'd have had some answer other than "You must forgive them.  Forgive and forget!" and all that other crap (and much more!).  I probably dedicated several years on a shrink's couch to coming to grips with the fact that some people are just completely in denial about how unbelievably harmful and destruction their behavior as parents, and as human beings in general, can be.

And now for ProzacDeathWish, because I think I was particularly unfair to you -- I thought you were making light of suicide, because as you've now read, it's a pretty huge part of my life.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13600
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
FurryCatHerder wrote:Brian37

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

You are looking at my finger while I am pointing at the moon. The believe in hell was a placebo. The fact that you stopped believing in hell does not change that. You simply replaced on distraction with another to act as a coping mechanism.

You're really being very rude.

Not rude, just honest. I have suffered from depression myself and there are others here who have/do. 7 billion people and Jews are not the only ones who suffer from depression. Depression is a mental/medical HUMAN condition, not cured or caused by a god or super villain.

Religion does NOT address  the mental and physical reasons. Religon does not address the underlying medical physical phychological reasons. It provides a distraction.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13600
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Quote: What I do know is

Quote:
What I do know is that I generally don't tell other people that what they are thinking is wrong, then after being corrected, persist.

Galelio "The sun does not rotate around the earth"

You, "You've already said that, you're being rude"

I am sorry if you want to percieve my comments as rude, rude no, blunt yes, but for a reason.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


FurryCatHerder
Theist
FurryCatHerder's picture
Posts: 1253
Joined: 2007-06-02
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote:Quote: What I

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
What I do know is that I generally don't tell other people that what they are thinking is wrong, then after being corrected, persist.

Galelio "The sun does not rotate around the earth"

You, "You've already said that, you're being rude"

I am sorry if you want to percieve my comments as rude, rude no, blunt yes, but for a reason.

Oh, my G-d!  I've finally seen the light!  After 30+ years of people telling me THE EXACT SAME THING, I've finally seen the light!  Wow!  There is no such thing as G-d!  I've been deluded.  Fooled.  Hood-winked, brainwashed and otherwise lied to!

Make you feel better?

I'm heading out for a beer or two.

Shabbat Shalom!

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


Cpt_pineapple
atheist
Cpt_pineapple's picture
Posts: 5486
Joined: 2007-04-12
User is offlineOffline
I put positive experience

I put positive experience with religion in the same category as negative experiences with religion. They're just anecdotes.

 

It is amusing however to see the people with negative anectodes fight with the ones with positive anectodes with neither realizing they are using the same logic as the other.

 

 

 


ProzacDeathWish
atheist
ProzacDeathWish's picture
Posts: 3633
Joined: 2007-12-02
User is offlineOffline
FurryCatHerder wrote:And now

FurryCatHerder wrote:

And now for ProzacDeathWish, because I think I was particularly unfair to you -- I thought you were making light of suicide, because as you've now read, it's a pretty huge part of my life.

I've always been able to fall back on "gallows" humor regarding my own situation ( it's a form of stress relief ) but I shall consider your admission as a basis for common ground between us.

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.

"When a man loves cats, I am his friend and comrade, without further introduction." Mark Twain.


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13600
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
FurryCatHerder wrote:Brian37

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
What I do know is that I generally don't tell other people that what they are thinking is wrong, then after being corrected, persist.

Galelio "The sun does not rotate around the earth"

You, "You've already said that, you're being rude"

I am sorry if you want to percieve my comments as rude, rude no, blunt yes, but for a reason.

Oh, my G-d!  I've finally seen the light!  After 30+ years of people telling me THE EXACT SAME THING, I've finally seen the light!  Wow!  There is no such thing as G-d!  I've been deluded.  Fooled.  Hood-winked, brainwashed and otherwise lied to!

Make you feel better?

I'm heading out for a beer or two.

Shabbat Shalom!

No one here is claiming you cant understand science. What we are saying is that science does not prop up myth. Trying to retro fit it to prop up your myth is what you are doing.

FACT, thoughts require a material process. There is no scientific dispute there. There is only you in denial of that fact.

FYI, "thoughts" are not things.  No one is claiming that, but you falsely and willfully ignore our argument.

If you were born with no legs. Or they were amputated to stubs. And you had no artificial limbs or artificial aid, you would have no legs to move yourself in a forward motion.

Running IS NOT A THING, it is an observation of the material process of legs moving forward at a faster pace. RUNNING is not a thing, but it is observable.

Thoughts are the same. They are not things, but the end result of a material process just like running requires legs even though running isn't a thing itself.

God/deity/entity/super natural are merely mythological stories humans invent as a placebo gap answer in place of the parents that cannot protect them throughout their lives. It is merely the infantile desire to want protection. It is an evolutionary flaw in human thinking.

If you are capable of rejecting the pet gods of others then you should have no problem understanding why we reject your pet god as well. The only difference between you and I is that I reject one more pet deity than you do.

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


EXC
atheist
EXC's picture
Posts: 3139
Joined: 2008-01-17
User is offlineOffline
FurryCatHerder wrote:Oh, my

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Oh, my G-d!  I've finally seen the light!  After 30+ years of people telling me THE EXACT SAME THING, I've finally seen the light!  Wow!  There is no such thing as G-d!  I've been deluded.  Fooled.  Hood-winked, brainwashed and otherwise lied to!

Make you feel better?

I'm heading out for a beer or two.

Shabbat Shalom!

Now you get it, just replace your old drug with new ones.

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


FurryCatHerder
Theist
FurryCatHerder's picture
Posts: 1253
Joined: 2007-06-02
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote:FACT, thoughts

Brian37 wrote:

FACT, thoughts require a material process. There is no scientific dispute there. There is only you in denial of that fact.

It does?  Got a proof for that?

Got proof that creating the Laws of Nature even required "thought"?

Yeah, didn't think so.

Quote:
FYI, "thoughts" are not things.  No one is claiming that, but you falsely and willfully ignore our argument.

"Proof by Repeated Assertion" sounds a lot like Religious Belief to me.

Don't make Science a Religion -- bad idea.

Quote:
If you were born with no legs. Or they were amputated to stubs. And you had no artificial limbs or artificial aid, you would have no legs to move yourself in a forward motion.

Yes, but there are a very large number of ways to move, some of which involve moving backwards, others of which involve mechanical devices, others of which might even involve being carried, or subjected to various external forces.

"Legs" are NOT a requirement for "moving", in other words.

Quote:
Thoughts are the same. They are not things, but the end result of a material process just like running requires legs even though running isn't a thing itself.

You seem really hung up on this "thought" thing.  Here's some clues --

1). G-d does not THINK.

2). G-d does not have a BRAIN.

3). G-d's NON-EXISTENT BRAIN does not THINK.

4). Natural Laws do NOT require a BRAIN or THINKING in order to operate.

When your counter-arguments include those little clues, we'll talk some more.  Right now you're using "Proof By Repeated Assertion", and I'm pretty good at that one, too.  The only difference is I admit my beliefs are a "religion" and you seem incapable of doing likewise.

Wonder why.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


FurryCatHerder
Theist
FurryCatHerder's picture
Posts: 1253
Joined: 2007-06-02
User is offlineOffline
ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

FurryCatHerder wrote:

And now for ProzacDeathWish, because I think I was particularly unfair to you -- I thought you were making light of suicide, because as you've now read, it's a pretty huge part of my life.

I've always been able to fall back on "gallows" humor regarding my own situation ( it's a form of stress relief ) but I shall consider your admission as a basis for common ground between us.

I wish that worked with me.

The best thing that happened really was coming to grips with the harsh reality that sometimes people who should be trustworthy just aren't up to the task.  After Mom passed away, Dad and I had a chance to talk about when I grew up.  I found out that some of the same things that happened to me had also happened in their lives and my guess is they were in denial.

But talking about it helps, as I'm sure you're aware.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 10610
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is onlineOnline
I tried to come up with

I tried to come up with something, in the interest of fairness, but I couldn't think of a single good experience I've ever had with any religion. All which weren't bad were simply neutral. Maybe there's something that isn't coming to mind, but it isn't coming to mind.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


ProzacDeathWish
atheist
ProzacDeathWish's picture
Posts: 3633
Joined: 2007-12-02
User is offlineOffline
ProzacDeathWish wrote:I've

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
I've always been able to fall back on "gallows" humor regarding my own situation...

 

 

As an example of my morbid humor ;  since the age of 19 I've been taking various psychiatric medicines in order to correct what's wrong with me.  Now, even at the advanced age of 52 it's remained a search that's always ended in failure.  I thought how funny it would be that after all those wasted years if I finally found a prescription that actually cured me and made me well ...and then I got promptly run over by a bus.

 

I dunno, something about that scenario just strikes me as funny. Irony perhaps ?

 

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.

"When a man loves cats, I am his friend and comrade, without further introduction." Mark Twain.


ProzacDeathWish
atheist
ProzacDeathWish's picture
Posts: 3633
Joined: 2007-12-02
User is offlineOffline
FurryCatHerder wrote:The

FurryCatHerder wrote:

The best thing that happened really was coming to grips with the harsh reality that sometimes people who should be trustworthy just aren't up to the task.  After Mom passed away, Dad and I had a chance to talk about when I grew up.  I found out that some of the same things that happened to me had also happened in their lives and my guess is they were in denial.

But talking about it helps, as I'm sure you're aware.

 

Talking helps me to a lesser degree because my upbringing was fairly pedestrian, no incidents of abuse or cruelty that would have damaged my young psyche.   I was just born "different".  

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.

"When a man loves cats, I am his friend and comrade, without further introduction." Mark Twain.


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13600
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
FurryCatHerder wrote:Brian37

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

FACT, thoughts require a material process. There is no scientific dispute there. There is only you in denial of that fact.

It does?  Got a proof for that?

Got proof that creating the Laws of Nature even required "thought"?

Yeah, didn't think so.

Quote:
FYI, "thoughts" are not things.  No one is claiming that, but you falsely and willfully ignore our argument.

So if God doesn't think or have a brain, then the only thing you have is "poof" ABRAKADABRA.

If the universe and biological life does not need a consciousness then there is no need for God.

"Proof by Repeated Assertion" sounds a lot like Religious Belief to me.

Don't make Science a Religion -- bad idea.

Quote:
If you were born with no legs. Or they were amputated to stubs. And you had no artificial limbs or artificial aid, you would have no legs to move yourself in a forward motion.

Yes, but there are a very large number of ways to move, some of which involve moving backwards, others of which involve mechanical devices, others of which might even involve being carried, or subjected to various external forces.

"Legs" are NOT a requirement for "moving", in other words.

Quote:
Thoughts are the same. They are not things, but the end result of a material process just like running requires legs even though running isn't a thing itself.

You seem really hung up on this "thought" thing.  Here's some clues --

1). G-d does not THINK.

2). G-d does not have a BRAIN.

3). G-d's NON-EXISTENT BRAIN does not THINK.

4). Natural Laws do NOT require a BRAIN or THINKING in order to operate.

When your counter-arguments include those little clues, we'll talk some more.  Right now you're using "Proof By Repeated Assertion", and I'm pretty good at that one, too.  The only difference is I admit my beliefs are a "religion" and you seem incapable of doing likewise.

Wonder why.

Quote:
Natural Laws do NOT require a BRAIN or THINKING in order to operate

Agreed. But natural laws will not produce a non material conciousness. Natural law can only produce a consciousness through natural biological evolution.

So if God doesn't think or have a brain, then the only thing you have is "poof" ABRAKADABRA.

If the universe and biological life does not need a consciousness then there is no need for God.

So this merely amounts to you wanting a diety to exist.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


FurryCatHerder
Theist
FurryCatHerder's picture
Posts: 1253
Joined: 2007-06-02
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote:Agreed. But

Brian37 wrote:

Agreed. But natural laws will not produce a non material conciousness. Natural law can only produce a consciousness through natural biological evolution.

So if God doesn't think or have a brain, then the only thing you have is "poof" ABRAKADABRA.

If the universe and biological life does not need a consciousness then there is no need for God.

So this merely amounts to you wanting a diety to exist.

The problem is that you keep trying to create a person-god or god-person and then you knock it down.  So, we have a folk-story --

One day Abraham is in his father's idol making workshop.  He decides he's going to smash all the idols, except for the biggest one.  When his father gets back he asks Abraham what happened.  Abraham points to the last remaining idol and say "He did it."  His father tells him that's impossible because he made the idols himself.

But mostly, it's Proof By Repeated Assertion.  Science can't prove G-d exists, and Science can't disprove G-d exists, and you keep trying to do one of those two, and you've completely fixated on the god you've created.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13600
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Quote:It does?  Got a proof

Quote:
It does?  Got a proof for that?

In reference to thoughts requiring a material process.

SINCE the discovery of evolution and DNA there is not one  life form capable of thought even at a lower level, such as a fly or cockroach, that does not have a material thing that acts as a regulatory system(brain).

You're use of logic sucks.

"Prove to me there is not a giant invisible teapot orbiting Jupiter"

"Prove to me snarfwidgits do not exist"

"Prove to me I cannot fart a Lamborghini out of my ass"

What you are suggesting would be like suggesting a human with no legs can run.

The reality you do not want to face is that ALL claims of invisible friends are merely human projections of human qualities of non human things. It is merely a reflection of a baby's desire to have a parent protect them. Dawkins moth. It is nothing but anthropomorphic gap filling. Your deity belief is merely YOU projecting your own wishful thinking on the world around you.

You are trying falsely to shift the burden of proof which is not how good logic works;

Otherwise all claims humans make would be true by default. You don't do that in reality.

"Prove to me Allah is not the one true god"

"Prove to me Ouija boards don't work"

"Prove to me Thor does not make lightening"

Thoughts require a material process. Thinking life forms exist inside biological evolution, nowhere else. Everything outside our evolution is the result of a WHAT not a who. And even evolution is a result of a what, not a who. A who is not needed to explain any reality of our existence or even that of the universe.

The universe existed billions of years before the first strands of DNA on this planet, and it will continue long after our extinction. Your myth and every myth of invisible friends will go extinct with our species when it goes extinct because there will not be any future generation to sell the myth to. The universe will continue without us and there will be no trace of us and there will not be any non material after life ghosts of our "spirits" continuing on without us.

That is what our species needs to face. You and every person who makes these claims.  It may hurt you or offend you to hear that, but I will not back off of that. It will do you good to face that reality.

No human invented myth or superstition holds a candle to reality. No gap filling, no matter how natural that flaw is, does anything good to explain the nature of reality. It is merely humans making a mistake in their thought process through the guise of tradition because their placebo gives them a false sense of comfort.

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37