Anti bullying laws and good intent.

Brian37
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Anti bullying laws and good intent.

Having suffered as a kid and in high school from getting beaten up for no other reason than that I was awkward, I can understand the need for these laws.

HOWEVER, I do not want to see this good intent wipe out ridicule blasphemy. I do not want to see things like this website or comedy like South Park or literature like Huckleberry Finn taken out of society because of insecurity. I do not want to see the quotes of Jefferson who blasted pulpit politics pushed underground because some cant handle criticism.

If the scope is limited to repeated repeated harassment and against any form of physical assault, I can live with that. I just don't want political correctness to create such a monopoly that no one can be offended. We all have the right to be free from the physical harm of others in a civil society. But claims do not deserve blind value by themselves as claims.

Simply saying "that is absurd" OR "that is bullshit" DOES NOT constitute bullying. Being offended by someone does not by itself constitute bullying.

I write this because more and more laws are being made to prevent what happened to me in school. Good idea, no doubt, but it must be written with care and regards to the right to bitch. If me, our my detractors AS ADULTS do not have the right to bitch, long term, for all of us, the road to a political or religious monopoly can take hold.

Be careful with this lawmaking. Kids should not live in fear of others at school. But we also should not teach them to always keep their mouth shut either. Along with this kids should read 1984 and Animal Farm and the Constitution and Jefferson's quotes about the "wall". It cannot simply be, "only say nice things". Empathy is one thing, but that should not come at the cost of the entire society setting up taboos to protect the insecurities of others.

Having been insecure myself and the victim of bullying myself, I am not against these laws as long as they don't take away people's right to offend.

 

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Has anyone ever gotten

Has anyone ever gotten through school without being bullied? Valuable lessons learned. I don't think bullying is something that needs legislation, leave it to the schools to deal with it.

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Tapey wrote:Has anyone ever

Tapey wrote:

Has anyone ever gotten through school without being bullied? Valuable lessons learned. I don't think bullying is something that needs legislation, leave it to the schools to deal with it.

Well, the common thing all humans have in common is they don't like getting physically assaulted. Having been hit by people I could not defend myself from with no way to report it without being seen as a snitch, is very hard to deal with.

The idea is to not pick on people weaker than you, which I am for. Our own First Amendment which says "the right to petition the government for a redress of grievance" Reflects protection of dissent(the weaker)

It is also a reflection of our evolutionary compassion.

So while ultimately it does merely amount to not beating people up, which is even illegal if you do it to a weaker adult, kids have it much harder in school because of peer pressure to fit in.

As long as such legislation does not foster a climate of political correctness, I am for it. I didn't have a big brother or best friend to stand up for me and I was not physically strong enough to defend myself. I spent most my school years running from bullies. Teasing I am fine with, and even from people who don't like me. But a hostile environment that creates fear is not good.

It is not either or but a balance. How do you allow kids the normal teasing. How do you teach a kid the difference between teasing and bullying? Balance is what I am talking about. Balance is not what I had at school. I did get through it but it did have a negative affect on me both physically and emotionally.

 

 

 

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Schools can't be trusted to

Schools can't be trusted to deal with bullying. They proved it by failing to address it until kids started killing themselves and shooting schools up. If I hadn't dropped out of high school I'd probably have done so myself. I'd certainly considered it (not suicide).

That said, careful consideration must be applied to ensure that anti-bullying laws don't suffer the same flaw as hate-crime legislation. The problem is physical and mental abuse in general. Tacking on sentences due to semantics won't solve anything.

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 You're never going to

 You're never going to outlaw everything in the world that hurts you. My wife divorced me, hurt like hell, I went on a bender drinking, smoking and generally destroying myself. Shit happens in life and there is nothing you, or anyone else, can do to prevent all of it. There is no reason why schools need special laws. Assault is illegal, if a situation gets to the extent where assault is occurring the offender can, and should be, prosecuted under existing law.

 

For non-physical bullying, live with it. People are going to bully you in all walks of life, and groups are going to gang up on you. Everyone has to learn to deal with it in your own way. Protecting kids from bullying does them no favors. When they go into the real world they will find that they are unprepared.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Vastet wrote:Schools can't

Vastet wrote:
Schools can't be trusted to deal with bullying. They proved it by failing to address it until kids started killing themselves and shooting schools up. If I hadn't dropped out of high school I'd probably have done so myself. I'd certainly considered it (not suicide). That said, careful consideration must be applied to ensure that anti-bullying laws don't suffer the same flaw as hate-crime legislation. The problem is physical and mental abuse in general. Tacking on sentences due to semantics won't solve anything.

I dont like "hate crime" as words for describing law either. Their are concepts without such terms that make sense. Dont hit people and when they say "enough" back off.

You are just as dead if shot for your wallet as you would be for being a Jew or atheist or spouse shot for insurance. The crime isn't the emotion, the crime is the act.

 

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Quote:For non-physical

Quote:
For non-physical bullying, live with it.

There is ample evidence that non-physical bullying causes more harm than physical bullying. Rather than accept that people are assholes, punish the assholes.

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Beyond Saving wrote: You're

Beyond Saving wrote:

 You're never going to outlaw everything in the world that hurts you. My wife divorced me, hurt like hell, I went on a bender drinking, smoking and generally destroying myself. Shit happens in life and there is nothing you, or anyone else, can do to prevent all of it. There is no reason why schools need special laws. Assault is illegal, if a situation gets to the extent where assault is occurring the offender can, and should be, prosecuted under existing law.

 

For non-physical bullying, live with it. People are going to bully you in all walks of life, and groups are going to gang up on you. Everyone has to learn to deal with it in your own way. Protecting kids from bullying does them no favors. When they go into the real world they will find that they are unprepared.

That is the part of you I cannot stand.  You cannot treat every individual the same nor does someone deserve to be physically assaulted because you personally think they should just "stand up for yourself' WE in reality never do that in a blanket manor.

Otherwise why do we react when a kid gets raped or an old women gets assaulted. You have to take into account the individual, that is where compassion comes in.

You know damned well if you were strong enough knowing I admit I cant fight, and we were at a bar, and despite my pleading for to the guy I spilled the beer on by accident, not to hit me, OR AT LEAST I WOULD HOPE, if you knew I did nothing wrong and this guy was just looking to pick a fight, you'd step in because you know I would be hurt. (not everyone would do that,, but the way you talk here, that would be you)

Saying bullying happens is merely stating the obvious. Saying we should never step in is absurd. Blanket solutions do not work. It is true that sometimes bullies get their ass handed to them by the person being bullied. But that is not the case all the time, because humans are a range of size and psychology, not an absolute.

I can only say that my own insecurities didn't help, but I didn't know better and I was not strong enough physically to handle everyone.

Being picked on is not the worst thing in the world, but having been beaten up by bigger and much stronger kids did not mean I didn't want or need the help at the time.

 

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Vastet wrote:Quote:For

Vastet wrote:
Quote:
For non-physical bullying, live with it.
There is ample evidence that non-physical bullying causes more harm than physical bullying. Rather than accept that people are assholes, punish the assholes.

You realize that what you want is impossible right? With non violent stuff it is pretty much always just someones word against some one elses.

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That isn't true. Bullying

That isn't true. Bullying often leaves evidence. That's why people have developed strategies to discover when a child is being bullied. That's why bullying has become a societal issue in the first place.

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Vastet wrote:That isn't

Vastet wrote:
That isn't true. Bullying often leaves evidence. That's why people have developed strategies to discover when a child is being bullied. That's why bullying has become a societal issue in the first place.

Look all I know in my school they did punish people for bullying but they never really could prove there was bullying going on unless caught red handed which almost never happened despite having multiple teachers patroling the lunch areas and any real gathering of students. The other concern is that what also happened in my school was the bully blames the victim for being caught and bullies worse. Now that is obviously not a reason not to punish the bully but if the purpose of the punishment is to stop the bullying it is something to keep in mind.

Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
No animal shall wear clothes.
No animal shall sleep in a bed.
No animal shall drink alcohol.
No animal shall kill any other animal.
All animals are equal.


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Brian37 wrote:Beyond Saving

Brian37 wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

 You're never going to outlaw everything in the world that hurts you. My wife divorced me, hurt like hell, I went on a bender drinking, smoking and generally destroying myself. Shit happens in life and there is nothing you, or anyone else, can do to prevent all of it. There is no reason why schools need special laws. Assault is illegal, if a situation gets to the extent where assault is occurring the offender can, and should be, prosecuted under existing law.

 

For non-physical bullying, live with it. People are going to bully you in all walks of life, and groups are going to gang up on you. Everyone has to learn to deal with it in your own way. Protecting kids from bullying does them no favors. When they go into the real world they will find that they are unprepared.

That is the part of you I cannot stand.  You cannot treat every individual the same nor does someone deserve to be physically assaulted because you personally think they should just "stand up for yourself' WE in reality never do that in a blanket manor.

Otherwise why do we react when a kid gets raped or an old women gets assaulted. You have to take into account the individual, that is where compassion comes in.

You know damned well if you were strong enough knowing I admit I cant fight, and we were at a bar, and despite my pleading for to the guy I spilled the beer on by accident, not to hit me, OR AT LEAST I WOULD HOPE, if you knew I did nothing wrong and this guy was just looking to pick a fight, you'd step in because you know I would be hurt. (not everyone would do that,, but the way you talk here, that would be you)

Saying bullying happens is merely stating the obvious. Saying we should never step in is absurd. Blanket solutions do not work. It is true that sometimes bullies get their ass handed to them by the person being bullied. But that is not the case all the time, because humans are a range of size and psychology, not an absolute.

I can only say that my own insecurities didn't help, but I didn't know better and I was not strong enough physically to handle everyone.

Being picked on is not the worst thing in the world, but having been beaten up by bigger and much stronger kids did not mean I didn't want or need the help at the time.

 

 

And ASSAULT is illegal whether you are a kid in school or an old geezer in a nursing home or anywhere in between. Assault is and should be illegal. And any school incidents of assault are and should be, open to legal action. Now if it is just a fist fight between a couple kids and no one gets hurt, common sense in deciding whether or not to press charges should be applied. 

 

On that note, harassment is also illegal. If a kid goes to school authorities and repeatedly makes requests for a certain person to stop harassing them, legal options are and should be available. But if your crazy ex is harassing you, you have and should have legal options. All I'm saying, is there is no reason to create a special class of laws. We have laws against assault and harassment. Enforce them.

 

@Vastet

Suicide is almost always related to psychological problems that need to be addressed. Kids with depression might attract more bullying because they are usually act "different" or have problems fitting in socially, but suicide is usually caused by underlying problems that should be addressed. Someone who is prone to be suicidal might commit suicide even without external bullying because such people tend to see even the most innocent teasing as evidence that they are hated.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Quote:And ASSAULT is illegal

Quote:

And ASSAULT is illegal whether you are a kid in school or an old geezer in a nursing home or anywhere in between. Assault is and should be illegal. And any school incidents of assault are and should be, open to legal action. Now if it is just a fist fight between a couple kids and no one gets hurt, common sense in deciding whether or not to press charges should be applied. 

 

On that note, harassment is also illegal. If a kid goes to school authorities and repeatedly makes requests for a certain person to stop harassing them, legal options are and should be available. But if your crazy ex is harassing you, you have and should have legal options. All I'm saying, is there is no reason to create a special class of laws. We have laws against assault and harassment. Enforce them

Agreed. So we are on the same page. I guess what you are saying is lose the "bullying" part of the law language. Ok, I get that. So what can you do to enforce those laws because they certainly didn't work for me in school.

You act on the act, not the emotion, not the words(unless it is a call to violence), But the climate a lot of the time is "don't be a snitch" and that too was even the case when I was in school.

So, without the word "hate crime" OR "anti-bullying" in the language, how do you make better the environment , because simply saying "enforce what we have already" isn't enough. Do we need conflict resolution taught? Do we need more parental involvement? Do we need more hall monitors? How do we improve AND simply stick to don't hit don't harass?

You actually pointed out my error, thanks, AND you did show your compassion by agreeing with don't hit dont harass? But simply saying it doesn't solve the problem of improving bad environments.

AND I also agree say for example, two jocks go "I'm going to kick your ass" AND they go into it mutually and all they get is a black eye or bloody nose and neither wants to press charges, yea, that too I agree. Although once you reach a certain age I think it is childish and always thinking just because you didn't kill someone and they agreed to it doesn't mean the next time you get into a mutual fight you wont accidentally kill them by mistake. Laws for that too, but still not a good idea to fight because you never know what you might do or what the other person might do.

But that is not what I am talking about. HOW, do you improve schools so that weaker kids don't suffer psychologically or physically with "don't hit don't harass" which we already have? Not looking for a utopia, just suggestions.

Teasing is one thing, but fear can be crippling.

 

 

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I detest political

I detest political correctness.....

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Let the schools and the

Let the schools and the right government agency handle bullying in schools however it should be the parent's ultimate responsibility to teach their kids how to cope with it and it should begin in our own households.


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Squady wrote:Let the schools

Squady wrote:

Let the schools and the right government agency handle bullying in schools however it should be the parent's ultimate responsibility to teach their kids how to cope with it and it should begin in our own households.

Unfortunately society requires everyone to get a licence or permission for ever any activity except having babies. So the most irresponsible people have the most children.

This method obviously has not worked. There is no accountability in our schools. The other problem is students that constantly create distractions in the classrooms that prevent everyone from learning.

The only solution is technology. We need to have hidden cameras and microphones in the schools and on victim's bodies. Isolate the bullies and problem creators from victims, fire teachers that tolerate bulling.

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Tapey wrote:Vastet

Tapey wrote:

Vastet wrote:
That isn't true. Bullying often leaves evidence. That's why people have developed strategies to discover when a child is being bullied. That's why bullying has become a societal issue in the first place.

Look all I know in my school they did punish people for bullying but they never really could prove there was bullying going on unless caught red handed which almost never happened despite having multiple teachers patroling the lunch areas and any real gathering of students. The other concern is that what also happened in my school was the bully blames the victim for being caught and bullies worse. Now that is obviously not a reason not to punish the bully but if the purpose of the punishment is to stop the bullying it is something to keep in mind.

And in my school they looked the other way unless they had no choice. I remember getting dragged into a meeting with some asshole senior jock that I was ready to kill, and a counsellor (who happened to be a..

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..senior herself). The topic

..senior herself). The topic of conversation was what it'd take for the asshole to leave me alone. The reason for it was I'd had enough and had started fucking the asshole over every way I could (sabotage his school work, etc.). It wasn't because he'd been bullying me for a year or two and wouldn't leave me alone. He was just pissed off because I was smarter than him and he couldn't get me alone anymore.
I walked out of the meeting, because noone was interested in helping me, just helping the asshole.
It was around that time I started carrying a knife with me everywhere. I still do. I could only count on myself.

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Vastet wrote:..senior

Vastet wrote:
..senior herself). The topic of conversation was what it'd take for the asshole to leave me alone. The reason for it was I'd had enough and had started fucking the asshole over every way I could (sabotage his school work, etc.). It wasn't because he'd been bullying me for a year or two and wouldn't leave me alone. He was just pissed off because I was smarter than him and he couldn't get me alone anymore. I walked out of the meeting, because noone was interested in helping me, just helping the asshole. It was around that time I started carrying a knife with me everywhere. I still do. I could only count on myself.

Everyone who plays morality police when it comes to defending themselves with weapons is great at talk but are not lawyers. Talking tough is one thing, and the idea of "defending one's self" is understandable. But unless you are a lawyer with a recorded video of the confrontation when you take a chance using a weapon, you are playing a game of "he said she said".

I have no weapons or guns. I figure that if anyone wants to get me, just like a shark sneaking up on a seal, I wont see it coming anyway. What I have done to protect myself is to avoid places that get rowdy or are known for crime. And the times I have been confronted I tell the person, "I am sure you could kick my ass, but if you lay one hand on me, I wont fight you, but you will be the person going to jail." Their response is "wimp, sissy".  I say "That may be true, but I wont be going to jail".

I am not a lawyer. Neither are you. My default position is to stay out of places or situations where egos and testosterone can get to the level of violence. The few times I have been confronted I simply tell them I am not a challenge to them, they call me names and walk away.

 

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Brian37 wrote: Having

Brian37 wrote:

Having suffered as a kid and in high school from getting beaten up for no other reason than that I was awkward, I can understand the need for these laws.

Side comment with a few references: I wasn't beat up, but I got everything else. Not from jocks, as the stereotype goes, but just about every other clique. Jocks struck me as ok if a bit noisy. That changed by about 10th grade, but I still had problems here and there. Apparently, the key is to simply look the bully in the eyes. The moments I successfully pulled off a "don't fuck with me" stare, I felt good about myself for the rest of the week. In 11th grade, body language was (apparently) enough to scare off one kid who knocked the wind out of my stomach in early elementary school. This ironic because I was passive enough to get bullied by teachers and even one principal, if you can imagine it.

Quote:
If the scope is limited to repeated repeated harassment and against any form of physical assault, I can live with that. I just don't want political correctness to create such a monopoly that no one can be offended.

Semantics problem... "create" isn't much of a word in an environment were many schools are already PC and socially conformist. This was the case throughout school districts I was enrolled in during the 80s and 90s. Social conformism has dropped a bit since the already nonconformist 80s and 90s, but harm from teachers has, in fact, increased. It tends to get even worse in "special needs" schools and nonsecular grade schools, if news reports are any indication.

Quote:
If me, our my detractors AS ADULTS do not have the right to bitch, long term, for all of us, the road to a political or religious monopoly can take hold.

You had me until this line. I'm not seeing strict controls and what ideas you are allowed to express, unless it's at someone's dinner table. Even with the contracts and 'unwritten' rules of continued employment, you can still drop an anonymous line at any millions of blogs and websites about office politics or whatever topic is weighing you down.

You, Brian37, were allowed to weigh in on workplace issues a few months ago. Did you break any laws to do so? Did you piss of the site's owner (sapient) doing that? Did you get banned and have to make multiple sock puppets to post about your boss here? Did you PM anyone with classified info on how to manufacture, store, and use NBC agents?

No, you didn't. You haven't broken any laws here, to my knowledge. At that, there isn't IMO sufficient reason to think your "right to offend" is going away any time soon.

Quote:
Be careful with this lawmaking. Kids should not live in fear of others at school. But we also should not teach them to always keep their mouth shut either. Along with this kids should read 1984 and Animal Farm and the Constitution and Jefferson's quotes about the "wall". It cannot simply be, "only say nice things". Empathy is one thing, but that should not come at the cost of the entire society setting up taboos to protect the insecurities of others.

I agree fully. Add to that Janis Ian's remarks on political correctness, and Sinatra's comment on religion:

[quoten= Frank Sinatra] "I'm for anything that gets you through the night, be it prayer, tranquilizers, or a bottle of Jack Daniels. But to me religion is a deeply personal thing in which man and God go it alone together, without the witch doctor in the middle."

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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I don't give a rats ass

I don't give a rats ass about lawyers or the law. My ethics are contrary to the majority in a number of ways. What I care about is defending myself. And rest assured there's no "tough talk" here. I am fully capable of ending someone who threatens me. Especially if they are taking advantage of the requirement that I be somewhere at a certain time.
I'm a predator by nature, and have never been taken completely by surprise. I see threats I can deal with coming (obviously assassination isn't on the list, but there's not much you can do with someone using such methodology).
I'll make an effort at avoiding confrontation, but avoidance isn't always possible.
You can take comfort knowing your persecutor is in prison for a year. I'll take comfort knowing that my persecutor will never bother me or anyone else again. And if I go to jail for defending myself, pity society for all the new tricks I'll learn coupled with the end of my non-criminal life (since a criminal record would end it).

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Vastet wrote: And in my

Vastet wrote:
And in my school they looked the other way unless they had no choice. I remember getting dragged into a meeting with some asshole senior jock that I was ready to kill, and a counsellor (who happened to be a..

That's pretty much what happened in my schools growing up.

When I was a little kid, I remember one of the older ones that made my life a living hell.

Went to a teacher about it, nothing happened. It got worse, went to the principal, who called the bully into the office and gave him a stern lecture. Which only made the situation even worse.

Finally I had enough and bloodied the kid's nose on the playground. I got detention and a letter sent to my parents, but it was well worth it because the trouble with that bully finally stopped.

The letter to my parents proved an interesting result. My dad told me if he ever heard of me going to teachers for help, instead of fighting the bullies, HE would kick my ass worse than any bully.

Since I was more terrified of my dad than other children, I always fought them.

I did not have to fight that much, for once alot of them see that you will stand up for yourself, they will leave you alone. The problem comes in, when some new bully comes to school, hears that you will fight and decides to try you out.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
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Vastet wrote:I don't give a

Vastet wrote:
I don't give a rats ass about lawyers or the law. My ethics are contrary to the majority in a number of ways. What I care about is defending myself. And rest assured there's no "tough talk" here. I am fully capable of ending someone who threatens me. Especially if they are taking advantage of the requirement that I be somewhere at a certain time. I'm a predator by nature, and have never been taken completely by surprise. I see threats I can deal with coming (obviously assassination isn't on the list, but there's not much you can do with someone using such methodology). I'll make an effort at avoiding confrontation, but avoidance isn't always possible. You can take comfort knowing your persecutor is in prison for a year. I'll take comfort knowing that my persecutor will never bother me or anyone else again. And if I go to jail for defending myself, pity society for all the new tricks I'll learn coupled with the end of my non-criminal life (since a criminal record would end it).

Not quite sure what that last line means, but correct me if I am wrong.

You'd rather risk someone trumping up charges on you, and they can in "he said she said cases", kill someone in self defense with no way to prove it, and then end your own life because you don't want to go to prison? Maybe I am reading something wrong here?

I cant stop you from taking that risk, but it would seem to be easiest not to put yourself into situations where that might happen. Basically the first time someone shows they are willing to get physical with you, don't associate yourselves with them, especially if they are the only ones with witnesses.

Quote:
I see threats I can deal with coming

Yea, lots of people think that. But reality is never e100% everything we see all the time. False senses of security combined with ego lead people into things they never expect all the time. I am not saying you have a huge ego. I am saying that none of us are perfect nor can we be.

You see some threats, but you'll never be able to see all threats all the time, not even the ones you have observed before.

A good driver drives "defensively". That does not mean flip people off or run them off the road or tailgate them. It means to assume the guy in front of you or behind you is going to do something stupid so keep your distance and get out of their way if they are doing something stupid. I think that is the attitude you take when you say "I see threats I can deal with coming".

But the reality, even if you are keeping your distance, and obeying traffic laws you still can end up in an accident that is not your fault, even if you spot the threat.

For myself, when anyone starts physically threatening me, or implying threats, I get away from them as fast as I can and don't deal with them. But if someone really wants to get me, I most likely wont see it coming.

 

 

 

 

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Quote:You'd rather risk

Quote:
You'd rather risk someone trumping up charges on you, and they can in "he said she said cases", kill someone in self defense with no way to prove it, and then end your own life because you don't want to go to prison? Maybe I am reading something wrong here?

You are. If a criminal record were assigned to me it would no longer be in my best interest to be a law abiding citizen. Suicide isn't an option.
But I'm not going to let a low probability scenario interfere with my intent to defend myself.

I don't ever have a sense of security. I'm constantly watching my surroundings. Even at home I have a hair trigger reflex. It's already saved my life and the lives of others on multiple occasions.
It doesn't hurt that I have at least twenty years of training in watching my surroundings, reinforcing an innate skill.
Noone can avoid trouble better than I, but noone is more vicious and cruel than I when cornered either. I won't care or think about anything but ending the threat until the threat is ended.

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Beyond Saving wrote: You're

Beyond Saving wrote:

 You're never going to outlaw everything in the world that hurts you. My wife divorced me, hurt like hell, I went on a bender drinking, smoking and generally destroying myself. Shit happens in life and there is nothing you, or anyone else, can do to prevent all of it. There is no reason why schools need special laws. Assault is illegal, if a situation gets to the extent where assault is occurring the offender can, and should be, prosecuted under existing law.

 

For non-physical bullying, live with it. People are going to bully you in all walks of life, and groups are going to gang up on you. Everyone has to learn to deal with it in your own way. Protecting kids from bullying does them no favors. When they go into the real world they will find that they are unprepared.

Bullying interferes with the learning processes, including verbal. You're paying for these schools, don't you want them to do their job? Or would you prefer to pay for the welfare bill of all bullies and bullied students that failed to develop any job skill in our schools that tolerate this behavior?

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EXC wrote:Beyond Saving

EXC wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

 You're never going to outlaw everything in the world that hurts you. My wife divorced me, hurt like hell, I went on a bender drinking, smoking and generally destroying myself. Shit happens in life and there is nothing you, or anyone else, can do to prevent all of it. There is no reason why schools need special laws. Assault is illegal, if a situation gets to the extent where assault is occurring the offender can, and should be, prosecuted under existing law.

 

For non-physical bullying, live with it. People are going to bully you in all walks of life, and groups are going to gang up on you. Everyone has to learn to deal with it in your own way. Protecting kids from bullying does them no favors. When they go into the real world they will find that they are unprepared.

Bullying interferes with the learning processes, including verbal. You're paying for these schools, don't you want them to do their job? Or would you prefer to pay for the welfare bill of all bullies and bullied students that failed to develop any job skill in our schools that tolerate this behavior?

 

Part of learning is learning how to cope with the real world. If the purpose of schools is to prepare kids enough that they can take care of themselves in the real world, dealing with bullies is part of that and I don't see why we should be hyper paranoid about protecting kids from it. When you get a job in the real world, chances are you will run across a bully at some point. (As if schools actually do shit to teach anyone, anything about working/surviving in the real world)

 

Really the most sensible thing to do would be to scrap our entire education system and build something new because anyone with any sense can see our current system is a complete failure.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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For your information, bullys

For your information, bullys in the real world are not the norm, and not something kids need daily exposure to. Every single place I've worked or associated with in the last 15 years across all of Canada and much of the US has had strict human resources departments which will fire you on the spot for bullying behaviour. And pretty soon bullys'll be risking jail too.
All your suggestion does is suggest letting kids torture each other only to spend their lives on your tax dollars in prison or on welfare when they find out as an adult that it isn't tolerated.

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Beyond Saving wrote:Part of

Beyond Saving wrote:

Part of learning is learning how to cope with the real world.

In the real world, adults can get lawyers, police and guns. So there is not much bullying going on.

Bullying and harassment is not tolerated in the workplace. In the 'real' world, one can get a lawyer and sue the employer that tolerates an environment of harassment. So bullies are fired in the real world. Unfortunately kids can't get a lawyer, can't get the schools to kick out the bullies.

In Jr. High, I had to bring a knife to school because I couldn't go the police, lawyers or teachers to make it stop. I was just supposed to 'deal with it' I was told.

Beyond Saving wrote:

If the purpose of schools is to prepare kids enough that they can take care of themselves in the real world, dealing with bullies is part of that and I don't see why we should be hyper paranoid about protecting kids from it.

So you would tolerate a co-worker harassing you. Why not sue the shit out of your employer if they don't stop it?

So we should teach kids to secretly videotape the harrasment and get a lawyer to sue the school since this is how it's done in the 'real' world?

Beyond Saving wrote:

When you get a job in the real world, chances are you will run across a bully at some point. (As if schools actually do shit to teach anyone, anything about working/surviving in the real world)

They are not going to bully me because I'll get their ass fired for not behaving professionally. So, why don't we teach kids to report all incidents and get the bullies away from victims until they change? That's the real world, isn't it?

Beyond Saving wrote:

Really the most sensible thing to do would be to scrap our entire education system and build something new because anyone with any sense can see our current system is a complete failure.

Well yes. That is a topic for another post. The main problem is we tolerate a culture of failure. Schools and teachers get to keep their income even when they fail to produce trained graduates with work and learning skills. But, this culture of failure is due to people like you that tolerate an environment of bullying instead of an environment of learning.

 

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EXC wrote:Beyond Saving

EXC wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

Part of learning is learning how to cope with the real world.

In the real world, adults can get lawyers, police and guns. So there is not much bullying going on.

Bullying and harassment is not tolerated in the workplace. In the 'real' world, one can get a lawyer and sue the employer that tolerates an environment of harassment. So bullies are fired in the real world. Unfortunately kids can't get a lawyer, can't get the schools to kick out the bullies.

In Jr. High, I had to bring a knife to school because I couldn't go the police, lawyers or teachers to make it stop. I was just supposed to 'deal with it' I was told.

Beyond Saving wrote:

If the purpose of schools is to prepare kids enough that they can take care of themselves in the real world, dealing with bullies is part of that and I don't see why we should be hyper paranoid about protecting kids from it.

So you would tolerate a co-worker harassing you. Why not sue the shit out of your employer if they don't stop it?

So we should teach kids to secretly videotape the harrasment and get a lawyer to sue the school since this is how it's done in the 'real' world?

Beyond Saving wrote:

When you get a job in the real world, chances are you will run across a bully at some point. (As if schools actually do shit to teach anyone, anything about working/surviving in the real world)

They are not going to bully me because I'll get their ass fired for not behaving professionally. So, why don't we teach kids to report all incidents and get the bullies away from victims until they change? That's the real world, isn't it?

Beyond Saving wrote:

Really the most sensible thing to do would be to scrap our entire education system and build something new because anyone with any sense can see our current system is a complete failure.

Well yes. That is a topic for another post. The main problem is we tolerate a culture of failure. Schools and teachers get to keep their income even when they fail to produce trained graduates with work and learning skills. But, this culture of failure is due to people like you that tolerate an environment of bullying instead of an environment of learning.

 

 

I mostly agree with you. But I fail to see how that draws a conclusion that we need special laws. If kids are doing things that break the law, it is enforceble. If schools are failing to pursue legal action with current laws, what makes you think they would with new laws? Most cases of bullying can, and should be dealt with at the school admin level. Creating a new law isn't going to make the school administers do their job better. If a school is failing to provide a safe environment, fire the dip shits running it and hire new people. You don't need a bunch of new laws that will be ignored like you are saying the current ones are ignored.

 

And yeah, if a kid has to videotape and sue, that needs to be done. Saw an incident recently where a teacher was harassing a student and the student recorded it. That teacher/school should be sued like crazy.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Quote:That is a topic for

Quote:
That is a topic for another post. The main problem is we tolerate a culture of failure.

No, that mindset sells the idea that it is ok to look down on those with less as if they are failures.

Doing the best at whatever you do, no matter how low on the pay scale is honest and is undervalued in our society which is why we have the pay gap we do and why we have an increasing lack of education at that level.

No one who does the best they can at an honest job is a failure. PERIOD!

If all the people at my pay scale had my education crap like this would not sell and the middle class and poor would not get dumped on and devalued and demonized like this.

I am damned good at what I do. Making less does not make me less important. It just means I make less.

You think a trash collector is such a loser, I bet if they went on strike and your trash piled up in your yard you'd change your tune.

The reality that this mindset doesn't want to face is that class and pay doesn't automatically equal moral or good. It takes all of us and all of us should be educated at a minimum at a A B grade high school level. Even if we ever get to that point which I hope we do, there would STILL be a three class system, as there should be.

This mentality however is fostering the race to the bottom by the stupid and pathetic attitude that "if you don't make what I make you are a piece of shit"

EVERYONE should have a decent education and EVERYONE should always do their best at whatever job they have. But that does not mean every human has to be a clone of you or wants the same thing as you.

I am sick of this shit. THIS mentality is what is causing the pay gap. This mentality is keeping the poor uneducated and by proxy maintaining the cheap labor big business masturbates over.

THE poor in Germany and Europe and Canada are far more educated and WOULD NOT put up with your demonizing honest work.

I am glad to see that the streets are full of the middle class and poor who are sick of this bullshit attitude that they are lazy or should be treated like criminals because they don't have or dont want what you want.

LIFE IS NOT A SCRIPT and we are not clones of each other. Every class is needed and even the poor should have an education, but there would still be poor people even with that education.

Please, if you really think low pay jobs are unskilled or make the person losers, fire those people and on top of your own job, do theirs as well. Otherwise be happy that there is someone doing a job you yourself don't want to do.

LOOK AT THE  STREETS ALL OVER THE COUNTRY AND ALL OVER THE WORLD, money is what fucked up our global economy. MONEY is what has corrupted global politics. The middle class and poor who protest DO NOT want to end the open market, they just want those at the top to stop thinking they are the only one with rights or the only ones who exist.

So please, lose your judgmental attitude in thinking your status is the only thing that is important in life.

 

 

 

 

 

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Beyond Saving wrote:  I

Beyond Saving wrote:

 

 

I mostly agree with you. But I fail to see how that draws a conclusion that we need special laws. If kids are doing things that break the law, it is enforceble. If schools are failing to pursue legal action with current laws, what makes you think they would with new laws? Most cases of bullying can, and should be dealt with at the school admin level. Creating a new law isn't going to make the school administers do their job better. If a school is failing to provide a safe environment, fire the dip shits running it and hire new people. You don't need a bunch of new laws that will be ignored like you are saying the current ones are ignored.

 

And yeah, if a kid has to videotape and sue, that needs to be done. Saw an incident recently where a teacher was harassing a student and the student recorded it. That teacher/school should be sued like crazy.

I think it's more a question of training than a lot of new laws. The law just needs to be schools will be bully free zones and provisions for removing the worst offenders. The children need to be trained at an early age how to report and stop bullying. The bullies need to understand their behavior will not be tolerated and what their punishment will be. The teacher, parerents, police and administrators need to be trained as well.

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


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Brian37 wrote:No, that

Brian37 wrote:

No, that mindset sells the idea that it is ok to look down on those with less as if they are failures.

Doing the best at whatever you do, no matter how low on the pay scale is honest and is undervalued in our society which is why we have the pay gap we do and why we have an increasing lack of education at that level.

No one who does the best they can at an honest job is a failure. PERIOD!

This mentality however is fostering the race to the bottom by the stupid and pathetic attitude that "if you don't make what I make you are a piece of shit"

THE poor in Germany and Europe and Canada are far more educated and WOULD NOT put up with your demonizing honest work.

So please, lose your judgmental attitude in thinking your status is the only thing that is important in life.

 

I'm not "demonizing" or "looking down' anyone. I don't have or want any 'status' in this world. I just want to keep some of what I earn to enjoy life a bit and not give it all to people that just blame instead of learn how to move up the economic ladder. If these people you defend are so hard working, why can't they study for the jobs in demand?

Pay is based on supply and demand, not sympathy. The fact is people like you are the poor's worst enemy. You tolerate a culture of failure to do the things to get out poverty. Life is just a pity party and blame everyone else but yourself. Your attitude is the reason our society tolerates failure of schools and welfare programs to make people self-sufficient.

 

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


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Tapey wrote:Has anyone ever

Tapey wrote:

Has anyone ever gotten through school without being bullied? Valuable lessons learned. I don't think bullying is something that needs legislation, leave it to the schools to deal with it.

 

Pass out loaded handguns to all the kids when they enter the school.   Then every nerd is the equal to any foot ball jock.  A level playing field if there ever was one. 

Taking an analogy from the Cold War, it would be the scholastic equivalent of MAD ( ie, Mutually Assured Destruction ).  The risk is the same for all sides,  hence no has the guts to pull the trigger.    You die, I die.  A most unappealing scenario to a potential bully.

"Most people are ass holes." Jesus of Nazareth


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ProzacDeathWish wrote:Tapey

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Tapey wrote:

Has anyone ever gotten through school without being bullied? Valuable lessons learned. I don't think bullying is something that needs legislation, leave it to the schools to deal with it.

 

Pass out loaded handguns to all the kids when they enter the school.   Then every nerd is the equal to any foot ball jock.  A level playing field if there ever was one. 

Taking an analogy from the Cold War, it would be the scholastic equivalent of MAD ( ie, Mutually Assured Destruction ).  The risk is the same for all sides,  hence no has the guts to pull the trigger.    You die, I die.  A most unappealing scenario to a potential bully.

 

That gives the suicidal kids an unfair advantage.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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 Tapey wrote:Has anyone

 

Tapey wrote:

Has anyone ever gotten through school without being bullied? Valuable lessons learned. I don't think bullying is something that needs legislation, leave it to the schools to deal with it.

In my POS school, if you were a lazy dumb shit, they would hold you back. So it was a reward for them to bully kids 2-3 younger than themselves, they get to bully and not be bullied.

Teachers don't deal with, people often become teachers because the don't want to work that hard, they don't see stopping bulling to be part of their job. If the adults are not going to stop it, the victims have no choice but to bring weapons to school.

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca