Creationists unwittingly aiding atheist efforts

Lyzandra Daria
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Creationists unwittingly aiding atheist efforts

 

Creationists Drive Young People out of the Church

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/karl-giberson-phd/creationists-and-young-christians_b_1096839.html

 

Survey results recently reported by Christianity Today clarify once again the sober truth thatevangelicals are not making much progress in accepting well-established mainstream scientific ideas about origins. Particularly disturbing is the finding that only 27 percent of evangelical pastors "strongly disagree" with the statement that the earth is 6,000 years old. A higher number "strongly agree" that the earth is just 6,000 years old, a conclusion supported by mountains of evidence. Seven in 10 evangelical pastors "strongly disagree" that "God used evolution to create people."

Also out this fall is a survey by the Barna Group, a Christian polling organization, explaining why most evangelical Christians "disconnect either permanently or for an extended period of time from church life after age 15." It turns out that science is a major factor. Barna identified six reasons for the disconnection:

1. Churches seem overprotective.
2. Teens and 20-somethings' experience of Christianity is shallow.
3. Churches come across as antagonistic to science.
4. Young Christians' church experiences related to sexuality are often simplistic, judgmental.
5).They wrestle with the exclusive nature of Christianity.
6. The church feels unfriendly to those who doubt.

Barna elaborates on item three -- Churches come across as antagonistic to science -- as follows:

One of the reasons young adults feel disconnected from church or from faith is the tension they feel between Christianity and science. The most common of the perceptions in this arena is "Christians are too confident they know all the answers" (35%). Three out of ten young adults with a Christian background feel that "churches are out of step with the scientific world we live in" (29%). Another one-quarter embrace the perception that "Christianity is anti-science" (25%). And nearly the same proportion (23%) said they have "been turned off by the creation-versus-evolution debate." Furthermore, the research shows that many science-minded young Christians are struggling to find ways of staying faithful to their beliefs and to their professional calling in science-related industries.

I have been teaching science to evangelical college students for more than 25 years, and all this rings true. The students in my classes have had hundreds of hours of religious education growing up before they came to college. Most of them attended Sunday School regularly, listened to sermons at least once a week, spent time at summer Bible camps and weekends away with their youth groups. They read religious books, watched religious videos and subscribed to religious magazines (or, as is more likely, were given gift subscriptions by relatives).

Many evangelicals grow up in a sort of "parallel culture," running alongside and often at odds with the larger, secular culture. The educational component of this parallel culture, which Randall Stephens and I describe in detail in "The Anointed: Evangelical Truth in a Secular Age," contains strategies and techniques for undermining and even challenging secular culture, particularly science. Young earth creationist Ken Ham is the best and most influential example of this. In videos and writings that are widely consumed by evangelicals, he encourages students to ask their science teachers "Were you there?" when they talk about the past. The biology teacher says "Life first appeared on earth about 4 billion years ago," and the student is to ask "Were you there?" The physics teacher says "The universe originated in a Big Bang almost 14 billion years ago" and the students is to ask "Were you there?"

In a recent piece titled "Nine Year Old Challenges Nasa," Ham blogged proudly about "Emma B" who, when told that a NASA moon rock was 3.75 billion years old, asked "Were you there?"

The suggestion that scientists cannot speak about the past unless "they were there" is a strange claim. The implication is that we cannot do something as simple as count tree rings and confidently declare "This great pine was standing here 2,000 years ago." As a philosophy of science, such a restriction would completely rule out the scientific study of the past. This, of course, is precisely what the creationists want.

Many bright evangelical young people are, fortunately, not impressed with the suggestion that only "eyewitnesses" can speak about the past. Just this past spring I taught an honors seminar on science and religion at an evangelical college. The class included a couple of bright students who had grown up in fundamentalist churches that showed Ken Ham videos in their Sunday School class. Both of them recalled the encouragement to ask their teachers "Were you there?" And both of them, a few years older and wiser than "Emma B," thought this suggestion was ridiculous and wondered what kind of ideas required the embrace of such nonsense on their behalf. These students -- in fact, most of the students I have had over the years -- will graduate from college accepting contemporary science and its various explanations for what has happened in the past. But unless the leadership in their churches does a better job with its teaching ministry, such students will have a hard time returning to their home churches.

The dismissive and even hostile approach to science taken by evangelical leaders like Ken Ham accounts for the Barna finding above. In the name of protecting Christianity from a secularism perceived as corrosive to the faith, the creationists are unwittingly driving the best and brightest evangelicals out of the church -- or at least into the arms of the compromising Episcopalians, whom they despise. What remains after their exodus is an even more intellectually impoverished parallel culture, with even fewer resources to think about complex issues.

 

 

"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)

"A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes"...James Feibleman (1904-1987)

Respectfully, Lyz


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The bigger irony is that

The bigger irony is that neither Judaism nor Islam are as hostile towards Science as the Evangelical Christians are.  There's nothing wrong with a Jew or Muslim believing in the Big Bang =or= Evolution, and once again it would appear that the Church is going to enter a brand new age of Darkness while the other two Abrahamic faiths (ahem) don't ...

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


Lyzandra Daria
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FurryCatHerder wrote:The

FurryCatHerder wrote:

The bigger irony is that neither Judaism nor Islam are as hostile towards Science as the Evangelical Christians are.  There's nothing wrong with a Jew or Muslim believing in the Big Bang =or= Evolution, and once again it would appear that the Church is going to enter a brand new age of Darkness while the other two Abrahamic faiths (ahem) don't ...

>>>

I don't envision many evangelical christians converting to either Judaism or Islam (or Catholicism, which doesn't have a good track record with regards to evolution)...do you?  

>>>

"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)

"A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes"...James Feibleman (1904-1987)

Respectfully, Lyz


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Lyzandra Daria

Lyzandra Daria wrote:

FurryCatHerder wrote:

The bigger irony is that neither Judaism nor Islam are as hostile towards Science as the Evangelical Christians are.  There's nothing wrong with a Jew or Muslim believing in the Big Bang =or= Evolution, and once again it would appear that the Church is going to enter a brand new age of Darkness while the other two Abrahamic faiths (ahem) don't ...

>>>

I don't envision many evangelical christians converting to either Judaism or Islam (or Catholicism, which doesn't have a good track record with regards to evolution)...do you?  

>>>

Actually, yes.  There's a saying around Jewish converts -- Judaism gets the best and brightest Christianity has to offer, and they get our worst, typically disaffected Jews who are too lazy to =be= Jews and want to know Jesus is going to make it all better.

There are two reasons people convert to Judaism -- some boyfriend or girlfriend is a Jew, or they've managed to deduce that Christianity is a Roman pagan cult religion that is based on a highly perverted form of Judaism.  I've run into a former Atheist or two who became Jewish, but mostly we get ex-Christians.  The Israelis occasionally get a Muslim, but that's because they are surrounded by Muslim Arabs.

The same thing happens on the Islamic side -- people who have a firm belief in G-d, managed to reason their way through all the corruptions of the early Christian Church and realize that First Century Christianity bears little or no resemblance to modern Pauline Christianity.  Conversion to Islam is a =lot= easier -- recite the Shahadah in front of witnesses and you're in.

If they don't give up on G-d completely, they'll typically look around and see which religions are less whacked.  If they are just upset with the anti-Science attitudes, Liberal Protestant Christianity is one likely path, but if they are upset with the theology, there's a good chance their next stop is Moses or Muhammed (peace and blessings upon him and his noble family ...).

In my case, I was raised in a Liberal Protestant tradition, joined a number of more Evangelical / Charismatic churches in my late teens, before settling back into Protestant Christianity, and ultimately winding up a Jew.  I was chatting with some Muslim friends a few years back and told them that if they'd gotten to me sooner, I'd be a proper Hijabi by now Eye-wink  Musa rasul Allah, and all that.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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Islam seems more hostile

Islam seems more hostile towards science to me.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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butterbattle wrote:Islam

butterbattle wrote:

Islam seems more hostile towards science to me.

Than Evangelical / Conservative Christianity?

No.  Not by a long shot.

They do tend to make weird claims about science, based on very heavily twisted interpretations of the Qur'an, but full-on discussions of Science with the Muslims I know (mostly Shi'a, but many Sunnis as well) has never led to the bizarre "Science is from Satan!" reactions I've seen from Conservative Christians.

Remember that if it weren't for the early Muslims, much of what we knew during the "Dark Ages" would have been relegated to the scrap bin of human existence.

Surely there have been periods within Islamic cultures where science was frowned upon, and there are predominantly Muslim countries today that have issues with science, but as a whole, Science is alive and well within the Islamic world.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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That whole were you there

That whole were you there really is lame and worse undermines jesus for that matter. How do you know jesus was the messiah? Were you there? How do you know the gospels were written by the apostles? Were you there? I could see a smart ass kid in sunday school driving their teacher mad. Don't know if Ken Ham has young kids but how funny would that be if they turned such a dumb question back on him.

Also if there was a murder scene but no direct witnesses then there would be no reason to look for a murderer. The judge would ask WYT? No? Case dismissed. Sticking out tongue

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


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Yeah, Ex-min

 

 

'Were you there' is the greatest push for empiricism these nut bags have come up with yet. I approve. Believe nothing that is not demonstrated right in front of you. It's like the birth of the Royal Society of London. Well done, Mr Ham. 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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FurryCatHerder

FurryCatHerder wrote:

butterbattle wrote:

Islam seems more hostile towards science to me.

Than Evangelical / Conservative Christianity?

No.  Not by a long shot.

They do tend to make weird claims about science, based on very heavily twisted interpretations of the Qur'an, but full-on discussions of Science with the Muslims I know (mostly Shi'a, but many Sunnis as well) has never led to the bizarre "Science is from Satan!" reactions I've seen from Conservative Christians.

Remember that if it weren't for the early Muslims, much of what we knew during the "Dark Ages" would have been relegated to the scrap bin of human existence.

Surely there have been periods within Islamic cultures where science was frowned upon, and there are predominantly Muslim countries today that have issues with science, but as a whole, Science is alive and well within the Islamic world.

Labels labels labels.

If it weren't for people being born.

Survival of anything is a result of climate of the time not an invention of a label. If you are going to give Muslims credit then why are you not a Muslim?

If things survive like this, it is because the value is in the observation and compassion, not the label. Humans existed before Christianity, and Islam even Hebrews. There is lots lost to history because of superstition and our advancement as a species is hindered, not by labels, but by credulous people, of all labels. When a society is stuck on a label, they will do anything to hide the truth.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Not the brightest, IMO

 FCH wrote:

"Actually, yes.  There's a saying around Jewish converts -- Judaism gets the best and brightest Christianity has to offer, and they get our worst, typically disaffected Jews who are too lazy to =be= Jews and want to know Jesus is going to make it all better."

>>>

They can't be the brightest, if by that you mean most intelligent, if they will give up one fallacious religion for another.  

Just as the books of the Christian 'holey' book (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Revelations) weren't written by the Apostles...neither were the first five books of the Torah written by Moses (if Moses ever existed at all).

If Jews can rewrite their 'holey' books and then have them re-written and edited why should anyone believe they are the 'word of god'?

If Christians can editorially decide which of the Jewish books make it into the Christian 'bible' and then write more drivel that can't be proved either...why should anyone believe that those are the 'word of god'?

 

They (converts to Judaism) may be bright in some area of expertise...but their reasoning/critical thinking skills are sadly lacking, IMO.

These morons (converts to Judaism), instead of choosing one less god...have given up the so-called loving Jesus (who can't be proved to have lived) for the misogynistic, murdering, psychopath of a previous despotic religion.  Not smart, IMO.

You got the 'lazy' ones...who think, because they convert, their work is done.  They believe their have become one of 'god's chosen people'.  In reality...they are just sad, deluded, mentally ill and pathetic.  

>>>

"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)

"A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes"...James Feibleman (1904-1987)

Respectfully, Lyz


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Lyzandra Daria wrote: FCH

Lyzandra Daria wrote:

 FCH wrote:

"Actually, yes.  There's a saying around Jewish converts -- Judaism gets the best and brightest Christianity has to offer, and they get our worst, typically disaffected Jews who are too lazy to =be= Jews and want to know Jesus is going to make it all better."

>>>

They can't be the brightest, if by that you mean most intelligent, if they will give up one fallacious religion for another. 

Says you.

Quote:
Just as the books of the Christian 'holey' book (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Revelations) weren't written by the Apostles...neither were the first five books of the Torah written by Moses (if Moses ever existed at all).

And yet, here we are, thousands of years later.  I'm going with "The proof is in the pudding."

Quote:
If Jews can rewrite their 'holey' books and then have them re-written and edited why should anyone believe they are the 'word of god'?

You do know (or maybe not) that rewriting the Torah is frowned upon and that we have evidence it hasn't been changed in millenia.

Quote:
If Christians can editorially decide which of the Jewish books make it into the Christian 'bible' and then write more drivel that can't be proved either...why should anyone believe that those are the 'word of god'?

Because they have no evidence that it hasn't been changed in millenia.

Quote:
They (converts to Judaism) may be bright in some area of expertise...but their reasoning/critical thinking skills are sadly lacking, IMO.

So, the people with the highest number per capita, by wide margins, of Nobel Prize winners in the sciences are lacking in reasoning and critical thinking skills?  Arrogant much?

What's your CV look like?  Would you like to stack it up against mine?

Quote:
These morons (converts to Judaism), instead of choosing one less god...have given up the so-called loving Jesus (who can't be proved to have lived) for the misogynistic, murdering, psychopath of a previous despotic religion.  Not smart, IMO.

You've been paying too much attention to anti-Semetic clap-trap.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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Brian37 wrote:If you are

Brian37 wrote:
If you are going to give Muslims credit then why are you not a Muslim?

LOL!  You're starting to sound like my Muslim friends.

Believe me, they'd like to get their hands on me, and I don't mean that in some kind of evil "hands around her neck" way, either.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


Lyzandra Daria
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FurryCatHerder

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Lyzandra Daria wrote:

 FCH wrote:

"Actually, yes.  There's a saying around Jewish converts -- Judaism gets the best and brightest Christianity has to offer, and they get our worst, typically disaffected Jews who are too lazy to =be= Jews and want to know Jesus is going to make it all better."

>>>

They can't be the brightest, if by that you mean most intelligent, if they will give up one fallacious religion for another. 

Says you.

xxx

Says me...and a lot of Secular Scholars...

 

Authorship of the Bible (Old/New Testament)

 

The various books of the Jewish and Christian Bibles were the work of many persons over many centuries. While most biblical books have traditional authors ascribed to them, biblical scholars regard few of the books in either the Jewish or Christian Bibles as being the work of the individuals whose names have been attached to them by tradition.

According to Rabbinic tradition the five books of the Torah were written by Moses (who has not been proved to have existed), with the exception of the last eight verses of Deuteronomy which describe his death.  Today, the majority of secular scholars agree that the Pentateuch does not have a single author, and that its composition took place over centuries.

Since I only mentioned the first five books of the Torah…I won’t elaborate on the other books of the Jewish bible being added, by other authors. 

There is general agreement among scholars that the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke) show a high level of cross-reference. The usual explanation, the Two-source hypothesis, is that Mark was written first and that the authors of Matthew and Luke relied on Mark and the hypothetical Q document. Scholars agree that the Gospel of John was written last, using a different tradition and body of testimony. In addition, most scholars agree that the author of Luke also wrote the Acts of the Apostles, making Luke-Acts two halves of a single work.

 

The author of the Book of Revelation was traditionally believed to be the same person as both John the apostle of Jesus and John the Evangelist, the traditional author of the Fourth Gospel - the tradition can be traced to Justin Martyr, writing in the early 2nd century.  Most biblical scholars now believe that these were separate individuals.  The name "John" suggests that the author was a Christian of Jewish descent, and although he never explicitly identifies himself as a prophet it is likely that he belonged to a group of Christian prophets and was known as such to members of the churches in Asia Minor. Since the 2nd century the author has been identified with one of the Twelve Apostles of Jesus. This is commonly linked with an assumption that the same author wrote the Gospel of John. Others, however, have argued that the author could have been John the Elder of Ephesus, a view which depends on whether a tradition cited by Eusebius was referring to someone other than the apostle. The precise identity of "John" therefore remains unknown.

 xxx

 

Quote:
Just as the books of the Christian 'holey' book (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Revelations) weren't written by the Apostles...neither were the first five books of the Torah written by Moses (if Moses ever existed at all).

And yet, here we are, thousands of years later.  I'm going with "The proof is in the pudding."

xxx

The proof is that people have been brainwashing their children in their particular delusion for thousands of years.  Time for the criminal behavior to end, IMO.  Terrorizing children is an abhorrent activity that only the mentally ill 'religious' segment of the community still seem to find an acceptable behavior.  Not me.

xxx

Quote:
If Jews can rewrite their 'holey' books and then have them re-written and edited why should anyone believe they are the 'word of god'?

You do know (or maybe not) that rewriting the Torah is frowned upon and that we have evidence it hasn't been changed in millenia.

Quote:
If Christians can editorially decide which of the Jewish books make it into the Christian 'bible' and then write more drivel that can't be proved either...why should anyone believe that those are the 'word of god'?

Because they have no evidence that it hasn't been changed in millenia.

xxx

Millenia, huh.  The first four books (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers) were created c.450 BCE by combining four originally independent sources, known as the Jahwist, Elohist, Deuteronomist and the Priestly source(s).  The books were combined gradually over time by the slow accumulation of "fragments" of text, or that a basic text was supplemented by later authors/editors. 

Deuteronomy is often treated separately from Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers.  Its place in the documentary hypothesis is anomalous, as it, unlike the other four, consists of a single "source". The process of its formation probably took several hundred years, from the 8th century to the 6th.

Lest we forget, the Moses story is actually plagiarized from the Babylonian Gilgamesh story...which is also a myth.

XXX

Quote:
They (converts to Judaism) may be bright in some area of expertise...but their reasoning/critical thinking skills are sadly lacking, IMO.

So, the people with the highest number per capita, by wide margins, of Nobel Prize winners in the sciences are lacking in reasoning and critical thinking skills?  Arrogant much?

You are inferring that the converts to Judaism from the Evangelical Church are 'Nobel Prize winners in the sciences'.  Prove It.

What's your CV look like?  Would you like to stack it up against mine?

Trying to deflect isn't happening. This isn't about you or me.

XXX

Quote:
These morons (converts to Judaism), instead of choosing one less god...have given up the so-called loving Jesus (who can't be proved to have lived) for the misogynistic, murdering, psychopath of a previous despotic religion.  Not smart, IMO.

You've been paying too much attention to anti-Semetic clap-trap.

Now I'm an anti-Semite?  No.  I'm anti-mental illness.  IMO, anybody who believes in an invisible superfriend without proof; anybody who claimed to hear the voice of an invisible superfriend telling him to kill his son (Abraham, who can't be proved to have existed); anybody who believes that their invisible superfriend requires animal sacrifice (and I can go on), and anybody who still believes the drivel written in either of those so-called 'holy' books...is mentally ill.  

xxx

"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)

"A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes"...James Feibleman (1904-1987)

Respectfully, Lyz


Lyzandra Daria
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 Moving on...

 Moving on...


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Lyzandra Daria

Lyzandra Daria wrote:

 Moving on...

Probably a good idea, because the "four sources" you postulated above haven't been proven to be four of anything.

Oh, and 450 BCE -- that would be about 2,500 years, which counts as "Millenia".  Might wanna bone up on what "millenia" means, along with what "BCE" means, along with what "hypothesis" and "unproven" mean.

There'll be a test, I promise!

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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FurryCatHerder

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Lyzandra Daria wrote:

They (converts to Judaism) may be bright in some area of expertise...but their reasoning/critical thinking skills are sadly lacking, IMO.

So, the people with the highest number per capita, by wide margins, of Nobel Prize winners in the sciences are lacking in reasoning and critical thinking skills?

In other areas. What part of that did you miss?

They didn't get their Nobel Prizes for proving that their religious beliefs are true.

FurryCatHerder wrote:
 Arrogant much?

It's not arrogance when you're right. You're simply right, when you are right.

FurryCatHerder wrote:
 What's your CV look like? 

What's that got to do with her statement? But if you're just curious in general, mine is actually very impressive, as is my financial portfolio.

FurryCatHerder wrote:
Would you like to stack it up against mine?

The one with the most toys, wins. Or didn't you know that already??

I'm not sure what the point would be, because stacking mine up with any other 'self made' person doesn't prove that I couldn't do better under their circumstances, and vice versa.

But that's neither here nor there in regards to the statement that Lyz made. 

Your CV is not even germane to the topic. You're obviously feeling under appreciated for your 'stats' for some reason. Are you on LinkedIn? Not getting enough recognition on there or something?

I caught your comments in the other thread where you mentioned you were really needed to get back to work on some PCB's. Is that supposed to impress people or get you the win in the debate?

As a matter of fact, I'm setting up for testing some of my own designed prototype PCB boards I just got in today, and I've got the aluminum heatsinks they'll be mounted on up on my CNC for drilling, tapping and fin removal.

Any recommendations on sources for production PCB's? How about custom step down transformers?

If you need any industrial design done, 3D modeling, FEA analysis, materials testing, alloy welding, CNC machining, CNC toolpathing, CNC Plasma Cutting, SMP, LCTC tooling, pre-preg and RI Mil spec carbon composite work, and urethane spin casting or autoclave pressure casting, feel free to PM me, as we do that all in house.

However, based on your comments in the other thread regarding your financial solvency, I'll need to do a personal/company history and credit check before I'll agree on setting your company up on billing terms, so first orders are 50% upfront, the balance to clear our bank before we ship. We do business internationally.

You can send us DXF's or DWG's for 2D stuff, but you'll have to tell me what software you're running for 3D models so I can tell you which file type I prefer that you convert them to as we use NURBS exclusively.

And, I don't come cheap.

Did I mention I read and write 3 languages fluently, and only did 2 yrs in college in a second language studying psychology and don't even have a degree, have a conservatory level training in classical music, and can play electric guitar with my teeth?

No, I guess I didn't.

Because none of that makes me qualified to know things for certain, that I couldn't know for certain. Like knowing for certain how this universe and the life contained in it, formed.

 

Now, what could some Jews (you think) know for certain about the cosmos that non Jews or non Nobel Prize winners don't?

And how did they check to determine if they weren't wrong?

 

 

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


Lyzandra Daria
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FurryCatHerder

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Lyzandra Daria wrote:

 Moving on...

Probably a good idea, because the "four sources" you postulated above haven't been proven to be four of anything.

Oh, and 450 BCE -- that would be about 2,500 years, which counts as "Millenia".  Might wanna bone up on what "millenia" means, along with what "BCE" means, along with what "hypothesis" and "unproven" mean.

There'll be a test, I promise!

FCH

You are such a religio-tard that you didn't notice that I also said:

 

“The proof is that people have been brainwashing their children in their particular delusion for thousands of years.  Time for the criminal behavior to end, IMO.  Terrorizing children is an abhorrent activity that only the mentally ill ‘religious’ segment of the community still seem to find an acceptable behavior.  Not me.”

Thereby acknowledging that Jews have been brainwashing their children for 'millenia'.  You think that makes your particular superstitious sect more 'right' than other superstitions?

The article I quoted also said:

"...or at least into the arms of compromising Episcopalians, whom they despise."  

When did Episcopalians become a Jewish Sect?  To the best of my knowledge Episcopalians are still a denomination of the Christian superstition.  So much for your comment that these Evangelists are becoming Jews.

Answer my question...how many of these red-necked christian evangelists that have defected to Judaism have been awarded a Nobel prize in anything?

 

 

"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)

"A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes"...James Feibleman (1904-1987)

Respectfully, Lyz


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I suspect the furbrain

I suspect the furbrain didn't see every response in your long post. She has a history of ignoring arguments via intellectual laziness.

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Vastet wrote:I suspect the

Vastet wrote:
I suspect the furbrain didn't see every response in your long post. She has a history of ignoring arguments via intellectual laziness.

>>>

You are being too kind.  

FCH is just another rabid, superstitious, mentally ill, moron.  Let's hope she can't breed.

>>>

"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)

"A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes"...James Feibleman (1904-1987)

Respectfully, Lyz


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Kind? Nah. I just can only

Kind? Nah. I just can only rip on someone so much before I need further provocation to continue. And, like the last time she had a burst of activity, I've owned her so completely that she started ignoring me. Makes it hard to call up a vengeful fury when she isn't starting shit with me.

If I remember correctly, she's claimed an age beyond the capacity for procreation, and has claimed lesbian tendencies as well. If true, breeding won't be a problem. Eye-wink

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I feel that how tolerant you

I feel that how tolerant you are towards other people seems to be affected a lot more by your environment and upbringing rather than whether you're a Christian, Muslim or Jew. So, the much of the discussion is moot. In the end, a religion is a religion and, many religions, given the hellhole that is currently much of the Middle East, would be extremely violent and dangerous, even if not as dangerous as fundamentalist Islam. The only kind of people where virtually everyone could be trusted to contribute positively in almost any society would be non-religious that value science and skepticism above all, as I am sort of assuming that they would never consistently base actions on irrational beliefs.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Vastet wrote:Kind? Nah. I

Vastet wrote:
Kind? Nah. I just can only rip on someone so much before I need further provocation to continue. And, like the last time she had a burst of activity, I've owned her so completely that she started ignoring me. Makes it hard to call up a vengeful fury when she isn't starting shit with me. If I remember correctly, she's claimed an age beyond the capacity for procreation, and has claimed lesbian tendencies as well. If true, breeding won't be a problem. Eye-wink

>>>

Ahhh!  That explains a LOT.  She couldn't be fully accepted in a Christian superstitious sect because of her sexual orientation.  Jews don't care (as much) about that.  Muslims care a LOT.  Her inference to being desired by Muslims is very funny, IMO.  She also probably doesn't realize that I'm not a (complete) novice on this site.  I've been here before.  Just not recently.

I had the same experience on another website from a RCC female who was in a relationship with (yet another) Muslim.  She also said that she was a very intelligent and wealthy individual (as if that was impressive) and had a great career.  

She and I got 'into it' (basically) over my view that the Catholic Church was just as reprehensible a superstitious sect as Islam and my suggestion that she work from within the RCC to have the Pope (his popeness) stand for election by the entire congregation...not just the Cardinals, among other opinions I expressed.  

She also didn't like my opinion that 'religion' was a mental disease or defect and that people who believed in invisible superfriends should be medicated.  Eventually, I'm guessing, she blocked herself from seeing any of my posts so that she wouldn't get upset and feel the need to respond and get put down...again.

I'm not stupid.  When I took one of those 'IQ (type) what-would-be-my-best-employment-prospect' tests when I was younger, I scored so high that the counselor suggested that I enroll at Salve Regina (Newport, RI) and go for my PhD in anything I wanted.  Can't you just see me at a Catholic Institution of Higher Learning?  I laughed and asked just who was going to pay for that...the Pope?  

I may not have a college degree (but I have some college education).  Just because I left college w/o a degree doesn't mean that I stopped learning about topics of interest.  Just because I'm not 'financially set', doesn't mean that I'm not successful.  I'm not driven to be a greedy consumer...therefore my needs are fairly simple.  I have to make some compromises, but on my terms.  Usually, that doesn't require that I compromise my values.  That is important to me.  

FHC 'copped out', IMO.  Her problem...not mine.

>>>

"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)

"A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes"...James Feibleman (1904-1987)

Respectfully, Lyz


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Heh. Memories... Furry made

Heh. Memories...
Furry made an attempt on my credibility and education last time around. Didn't work too well, of course, because I was still right and she was still wrong. But then, she doesn't let logic get in the way.
I find theists who pursue such strategies to be easy prey. Just keep them talking and noone can dispute their flawed logic. Eventually they burn out and vanish for awhile, or start ignoring the people who owned them (leading to them vanishing when there's noone left that they aren't ignoring).
You and I have some things in common. I only dabbled a bit in college, being largely unimpressed with the quality of education offered. I have never pursued riches, and hold strong to my principles. If I were to pursue riches, I'd be betraying those principles. So when attacked for being less than a corporate gold mine, I take it as a compliment. Eye-wink

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redneF wrote:FurryCatHerder

redneF wrote:

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Lyzandra Daria wrote:

They (converts to Judaism) may be bright in some area of expertise...but their reasoning/critical thinking skills are sadly lacking, IMO.

So, the people with the highest number per capita, by wide margins, of Nobel Prize winners in the sciences are lacking in reasoning and critical thinking skills?

In other areas. What part of that did you miss?

They didn't get their Nobel Prizes for proving that their religious beliefs are true.

No, but asserting that people who believe in G-d have some major lack of critical thinking skills should be measurable against their general skill set in areas where critical thinking is required.  To wit, hard sciences.

If your response is a laundry list of business goodies, that's not exactly what I'd call a demonstration of superior critical thinking skills.  Dittos for how many languages you've learned or how well you can play chello or whatever.

You don't believe in G-d, sort of makes me wonder where those critical thinking skills went ...

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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Vastet wrote:I suspect the

Vastet wrote:
I suspect the furbrain didn't see every response in your long post. She has a history of ignoring arguments via intellectual laziness.

No, I don't read all the posts because I have a real life and this website has one of the absolute WORST interfaces going.

You're also utterly incapable of "owning" me and "she left, I owned her" is another example of how f*cking stupid you are.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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Lyzandra Daria wrote:Vastet

Lyzandra Daria wrote:

Vastet wrote:
I suspect the furbrain didn't see every response in your long post. She has a history of ignoring arguments via intellectual laziness.

>>>

You are being too kind.  

FCH is just another rabid, superstitious, mentally ill, moron.  Let's hope she can't breed.

>>>

Too late, already bred!  Kid's an Atheist and in college already!  So's his girlfriend!

Let's check out your critical thinking skills.

A school guidance counselor told you to stay in school.  You started college, then dropped out, but continued to "learn" on your own.  You think that "learning on your own" is the same (somehow) as having a college degree, or working within a system that has a formal method of recognizing people for their critical thinking abilities, to wit, hard sciences and the peer review process, or any system other than the professional journal publication mechanism.

IQ is a test of "general intelligence" and has NO relationship to the ability to get a PhD in "anything you want", and no reputable counselor would suggest such a thing.  Research into General Intelligence -- what's measured by IQ tests -- has found a very strong correlation between having a high IQ and reaction speed.  That is, how high your IQ is, and how fast you can push a button in response to a light, are positively correlated.

Based on that, I say you flunk Critical Thinking 101.

For you -- become a Southern Baptist!  They also seem to lack critical thinking skills.

You sound like my brother who went to college for a few WEEKS.  WEEKS.  And tells people he "went to college".  Well, the people who mop the floors at night also "went to college", though in their cases, they are at least "still going to college."

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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FurryCatHerder wrote:redneF

FurryCatHerder wrote:

redneF wrote:

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Lyzandra Daria wrote:

They (converts to Judaism) may be bright in some area of expertise...but their reasoning/critical thinking skills are sadly lacking, IMO.

So, the people with the highest number per capita, by wide margins, of Nobel Prize winners in the sciences are lacking in reasoning and critical thinking skills?

In other areas. What part of that did you miss?

They didn't get their Nobel Prizes for proving that their religious beliefs are true.

No, but asserting that people who believe in G-d have some major lack of critical thinking skills should be measurable against their general skill set in areas where critical thinking is required.  To wit, hard sciences.

Ok, that's a valid objection.

I think it's a bit of a strawman, though; just hear me out...

You are sharp. There's no doubt about it, and I have little reason to doubt that you are well educated and well read overall. But, why do you seem to have a bias for supernatural theories to make sense of reality?

Because I just don't see any reason to not give high probability that the universe(sic) and the 'life' that formed in it, could not simply have occurred by the odds, naturally.

FurryCatHerder wrote:
If your response is a laundry list of business goodies, that's not exactly what I'd call a demonstration of superior critical thinking skills. 

I didn't claim it was a demonstration of superior critical thinking skills. It was just pointing out that having a degree or winning a Nobel prize doesn't mean that one can walk and chew gum at the same time.

FurryCatHerder wrote:
Dittos for how many languages you've learned or how well you can play chello or whatever.

See my previous response, with the caveat that being fluent in 3 languages does afford me some additional understanding on how to translate and transpose ideas and concepts faithfully from one language to another, and the other being that I am a lifelong classical musician who really tried long and hard to understand and reconcile how 'creativity' arises.

This included Transcendental Meditation, experimenting with hallucinogens, hanging out with Buddhists and Taoists and training in Martial Arts.

I've made 'spiritual journeys'.

FurryCatHerder wrote:
You don't believe in G-d, sort of makes me wonder where those critical thinking skills went ...

But, I'm not one to ever say 'I know G-d does NOT exist'.

For all intents and purposes, I live my life as though there isn't one, much the same way I live my life as if there aren't extraterrestrials, even though I think the odds of them not existing is slim to none.

Just so there's no misunderstanding, I agreed with your overall approach to being a 'good' person, and (for what it's worth) I see more similarities in disposition between us than not, so, I can't say that I don't like you, and still be honest with myself.

I do like your spirit, but I see a bit of a contradiction in your description of your apathy to others not believing as you do. I don't personally care that FCH believes in G-d, because I don't think you use that as a basis to do much other than believe G-d was the 'Prime Mover' or whatever.

On my scale of 'problem theists', IMHO, I don't think you'd even register.

A few of my best friends have some version of 'belief' in a god, and they know exactly my take on it, and we can even debate it, with zero after effects whatsoever, afterwards, both short term and long term.

My issue with theism is mainly dogma, preaching that there are 'objective morals' that are transcendent, and simply people 'projecting' their beliefs of 'truth' on children before the child has the autonomy to hear all the other 'truth' claims and use the best means they can find to develop their own personal conclusions.

I was raised in a secular home, and exposed to all major religions in History class, with no bias at all.

I've given serious thought to the probablities, but have found serious problems implicit in the premises of the monotheistic Abrahamic G-d claims. I reject the premises as unsound, even at the most stripped down level of the ontological or cosmological arguments, and the premise of our physical bodies being occupied by a 'soul/spirit' that lifts off the body at death.

 

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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LMAO! The problem is the

LMAO! The problem is the crazy Christian creation story sounds too much like this:

The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree

You have to be INSANE to believe any of it!

Click here to find out why Christianity is the biggest fairy tale ever created!! www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm www.JesusNEVERexisted.com


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Why do I believe G-d

Why do I believe G-d exists?  As in, my personal, subjective, firm and unshakable belief?

Because it has historically worked for me to the point that it is part of "Who I am".

Things have happened that others might say "Ah-ha!  Proof of G-d!" or "G-d spoke to me" or "I've come to know Jesus in a deep and personally meaningful way" (I was a Jesus Freak as a teen ...).  To me, not so much.  I've had those things happen -- some =very= profoundly disturbing events that others I know think is "G-d spoke to you."  Maybe G-d did, but not so much on too many other topics.

A number of things that people you might describe as "Problem Theists" do are absolutely stupid to me.  Some of them have been borne out by the behavior of those "Problem Theists" and others make no sense because they take away =our= responsibility for making this a better planet or living up to the Tenets Of Our Faith.  If one believes, as I do, that G-d gave us "Free Will", we need to own that and do something with it and not expect G-d to pop on in and fix things up.

For example, I belonged to a Charismatic Christian Church when I was 14.  I was dealing with severe depression (physical abuse as a kid), this Christian couple invited me to their church, it was much more "uplifting" than the mainstream Liberal Protestant Church I attended, so I went for a few years -- I think it was 3 or 4.  For several weeks there was a couple there who was praying for Jesus to give them a new refrigerator.  Within that sect this was pretty common behavior -- "I need a new car" and then the minister would pray REALLY REALLY HARD.  No new fridge.  This was one of those times when I realized that if there is a message in the Bible, it's not that G-d gives free goodies from Heaven, it's that we're stuck on this rock and we only have each other.  What informed THAT was actually a sermon about five years earlier at a completely different church -- Heaven and Hell are the same place, the only difference is that in Heaven people help each other and in Hell they don't.  But because of the "environment" in both places, the only way to be happy was to help each other.  That was the entire difference.  There was no other difference, only the behavior of the individuals.

Now you might say "Well, I'm sure that some nice Atheist could come up with all these really nice platitudes about helping Your Fellow Man", but I'm not seeing it, and I'm not that young.  Not quite ancient yet, but I'm on the downstroke of life.  I hope -- too many body parts are suffering the ravages of time.  Do NOT think in your youth "This is okay" because when you get old you will look back and go "Wow, wish I hadn't done that!"  But, I have no regrets.

What does this have to do with the existence of G-d?

Well, I see this "Atheism United" effort that's going on here, and the conversations about making Atheists more visible in certain ways that might help people understand Atheists Aren't Bad People.  This is definitely a good idea in my mind -- see my earlier comment about being stuck on this rock together.  What I see the Atheism United people doing strikes me as being in the early stages of crafting what might be called "a new religion".  For some reason those people want others to think of them as "Good People".  Not asking for Free Stuff From Heaven, which I agree -- stupidity -- but genuinely Good People.

This gets back to the entire "Does G-d Exist?" thing because it's been my observation that most people want some kind of social approval.  There are sociopaths and psychopaths and even the odd megalomaniac, but most people seem to want to think they are "good" and have others like them.  We're a social species, makes sense to me.  But the only "force" that has the ability to bind subatomic particles =and= say "we're all stuck on this rock together and we all need to look out for each other OR ELSE" is ... something "supernatural".  Without something more persistent than an organization like Atheism United, along comes the next person and says "This is all really stupid, let's just spend our money on gaming consoles", and then back you slide into social disapproval, misery, people not having their basic needs met, and social decay.

To me it seems =reasonable= that some "higher authority" has to exist, the same way that Gravity can't just be ignored.  Social Rules or Norms exist outside the Physical Reality of Quantum Mechanics or General Relativity.  There's no Pauli Exclusion Principle driving "Sharing is Caring!", but there does seem to be =something= no less real.

Does it have to be "G-d"?  No, it absolutely doesn't, but G-d is forever and "Gee, we should get people to think we're nice people" isn't.  If I had to point to something and say "That!  That thing there!  That is proof!", there's the proof for me.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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JesusNEVERexisted

JesusNEVERexisted wrote:

LMAO! The problem is the crazy Christian creation story sounds too much like this:

The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree

You have to be INSANE to believe any of it!

Watch videos by Islamic apologists.  They do an incredible job of lampooning Christianity.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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FurryCatHerder wrote:Vastet

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Vastet wrote:
I suspect the furbrain didn't see every response in your long post. She has a history of ignoring arguments via intellectual laziness.

No, I don't read all the posts because I have a real life and this website has one of the absolute WORST interfaces going.

You're also utterly incapable of "owning" me and "she left, I owned her" is another example of how f*cking stupid you are.

See? Just like I said. Intellectual laziness wrapped in a package of stupidity. She can't even consider the possibility that she's wrong, despite being VERY wrong. Sad, but also funny.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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FurryCatHerder wrote:Vastet

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Vastet wrote:
I suspect the furbrain didn't see every response in your long post. She has a history of ignoring arguments via intellectual laziness.

No, I don't read all the posts because I have a real life and this website has one of the absolute WORST interfaces going.

You're also utterly incapable of "owning" me and "she left, I owned her" is another example of how f*cking stupid you are.

>>>

If, as you say, this website is one of the absolute WORST interfaces going...don't let the door hit your stupid ass on your way out.

I had to leave because I also have a life...responsibilities.  

I started this thread and all you've done is try and derail it.  Hence, your 'troll' epithet under your screen name.  

If you have nothing salient to contribute...don't bother posting.

You haven't answered my question...how many of these evangelicals who you insist are converting to judaism (despite the statement to the fact that they are joining another protestant denomination of christianity) have earned a Nobel prize in any area?

I won't debate whether or not Israeli's might have the most Nobel prizes.  Can you prove that all of the Israeli's were Jewish (there is a difference).  I submit there is the possibility that some Israeli's could have been Christian or even Atheists.  That doesn't detract from the fact that they are/were Israeli citizens.

You are a mindless drone.

>>>

"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)

"A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes"...James Feibleman (1904-1987)

Respectfully, Lyz


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FurryCatHerder wrote:Why do

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Why do I believe G-d exists?  As in, my personal, subjective, firm and unshakable belief?

Because it has historically worked for me to the point that it is part of "Who I am".

Things have happened that others might say "Ah-ha!  Proof of G-d!" or "G-d spoke to me" or "I've come to know Jesus in a deep and personally meaningful way" (I was a Jesus Freak as a teen ...).  To me, not so much.  I've had those things happen -- some =very= profoundly disturbing events that others I know think is "G-d spoke to you."  Maybe G-d did, but not so much on too many other topics.

That still sounds like a 'feel good' thing, or a 'Hope' thing. That's about emotions.

FurryCatHerder wrote:
A number of things that people you might describe as "Problem Theists" do are absolutely stupid to me. 

I agree. The problem is the more they 'hope' that God exists, the more irrational they needed to become.

It's proportional. The more irrational they are=the more hopeful they are.

FurryCatHerder wrote:
What does this have to do with the existence of G-d?

Nothing. The conversation seems to have derailed into 'why' people 'hope' there is a god, which is not what I'm after.

I'm questioning if there is any actual evidence that such a thing is real, outside the minds and hopes of certain people.

FurryCatHerder wrote:
What I see the Atheism United people doing strikes me as being in the early stages of crafting what might be called "a new religion". 

Then you might be unaware that what some prominent individuals are doing is starting organizations like 'Project Reason' .

http://www.project-reason.org/

******************************

 

"Project Reason is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit foundation devoted to spreading scientific knowledge and secular values in society. Drawing on the talents of the most prominent and creative thinkers across a wide range of disciplines, Project Reason seeks to encourage critical thinking and wise public policy through a variety of interrelated projects. The foundation will convene conferences, produce films, sponsor scientific studies and opinion polls, publish original research, award grants to other charitable organizations, and offer material support to religious dissidents and public intellectuals — all with the purpose of eroding the influence of dogmatism, superstition, and bigotry in our world.

While the foundation is devoted to fostering critical thinking generally, we believe that religious ideas require a special focus. Both science and the arts are built upon cultures of vigorous self-criticism; religious discourse is not. As a result, religious dogmatism still reigns unchallenged in almost every society on earth—dividing humanity from itself, inflaming conflict, preventing wise public policy, and diverting scarce resources. One of the primary goals of Project Reason is to change this increasingly unhealthy status quo."

 

***********************

FurryCatHerder wrote:
This gets back to the entire "Does G-d Exist?" thing because it's been my observation that most people want some kind of social approval. 

Most people like to be liked, I will agree. However, the desire, or the 'disease to please' can tip the scales into dysfunction.

Luckily, I don't seem to have those genes, and I'm glad...

FurryCatHerder wrote:
 ... but most people seem to want to think they are "good" and have others like them. 

This is all about superficial 'subjective' personal feel good 'morals'. There's the larger scope of 'morals' that deals with being 'humane' to humans, which is a distinctly different thing, and that we must not conflate the two.

FurryCatHerder wrote:
We're a social species, makes sense to me.  But the only "force" that has the ability to bind subatomic particles =and= say "we're all stuck on this rock together and we all need to look out for each other OR ELSE" is ... something "supernatural". 

You mean it's external, universal and occupies our bodies?

I disagree.

For some people, it's like breathing.

FurryCatHerder wrote:
Without something more persistent than an organization like Atheism United, along comes the next person and says "This is all really stupid, let's just spend our money on gaming consoles", and then back you slide into social disapproval, misery, people not having their basic needs met, and social decay.

I don't know why you're misanthropic and jaded to that extent. We're not feral.

If we were by and large inclined to be that way without a dogma or explicit belief in the supernatural, or transcendent objective morals, you'd see examples of what you describe in Denmark and Sweden (for example).

We see the 'reverse' of that in those societies.

FurryCatHerder wrote:
To me it seems =reasonable= that some "higher authority" has to exist, the same way that Gravity can't just be ignored.  Social Rules or Norms exist outside the Physical Reality of Quantum Mechanics or General Relativity. 

I disagree.

And Neurophysics is going to provide us with many, many scientific studies why there's no reason to indulge in conclusions that you and so many others are drawing about 'The Human Condition' They've been studying stuff like this waaaaay before I studied psychology in the 80's.

The most famous example that began to seriously study the human condition was from Pavlov

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_conditioning

There's also this little known study of how and why "Good People Do Bad Things"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

 

FurryCatHerder wrote:
Does it have to be "G-d"?  No, it absolutely doesn't...

Then I don't have to waste any time and effort convincing you of that.

Good.

But my question of why someone like yourself, who is educated, well read, and sharp, not get behind organizations that are trying to firmly set the groundwork for a better global society and 'humanity' based on what we do know and can know with a higher degree of certainty, rather than arguing about things we can't know don't exist for certain, like *drum roll please*......GODS...?

FurryCatHerder wrote:
... but G-d is forever

That's presuppositionalism. That's a 'top down' methodology, aka: Confirmation Bias.

Like Astrology.

I don't care if people want to argue that it has it's 'uses'; that it can 'offer explanations' for things we don't understand yet.

It's fucking useless, and it's been scientifically shown to be useless and fallacious. Just like 'G-d'.

AFAIC, that makes it an objective fact that it's as fucking productive as a placebo.

 

That is not a sound and valid argument why humans should drink the Koolaid in the 21st century...

 

 

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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Last call...

Just to further demonstrate that FHC lacks critical thinking skills...

 

All she had to do was point out that Creationists weren't doing Atheists job by referring to the quote I pointed out to her.  I even gave her the ammunition and she couldn't pull the trigger.  

Lyzandra Daria wrote:

 

Creationists Drive Young People out of the Church

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/karl-giberson-phd/creationists-and-young-christians_b_1096839.html

 

 

The very last paragragh...

The dismissive and even hostile approach to science taken by evangelical leaders like Ken Ham accounts for the Barna finding above. In the name of protecting Christianity from a secularism perceived as corrosive to the faith, the creationists are unwittingly driving the best and brightest evangelicals out of the church -- or at least into the arms of the compromising Episcopalians, whom they despise. What remains after their exodus is an even more intellectually impoverished parallel culture, with even fewer resources to think about complex issues.

 

 

Creationists are driving the 'best and brightest' (not saying much) into the arms of the still christian, still protestant Episcopalian Church.

I would have conceded...yeah, that's what the article states.  

However, FHC is such a 'drooling' religio-tard, she couldn't even grasp the obvious.  

I've never felt that Evangelicals had an intellectual culture...at least not in science and (specifically) evolutionary theory.  

 

But...to have FHC go after me with her Judaic slant was just too much for me to resist 'yanking her chain'.  

And to think, somebody w/ a college degree and fabulous career/life (as FHC professes to have) missed something so simple.  Just goes to show, IMO, what religion/superstition does to ones critical thinking skills.

>>>

"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)

"A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes"...James Feibleman (1904-1987)

Respectfully, Lyz


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Let's examine FHC's allegation...a little

 I’m still looking for any information to prove or disprove FHC’s allegation that:

  Israel has the highest number of Nobel Laureates and  that the Israeli Nobel Laureates are all religious i.e., practicing Jews.

 

However, I did come across this article…which seems to dispute FHC’s allegation that the majority of Nobel Laureates are religious at all.  It is dated, but I really don't believe it's my job to prove FHC's claims

 

Leading Scientists Still Reject God

 

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/sci_relig.htm

 

The popular media balyhoo the fiction that science is supportive of religion. A recent issue of Newsweek (July 20, 1998) featured a cover story "Science finds God" which gave many innocent readers the impression that scientists in droves were finding scientific "evidence" allowing for God and an afterlife and were jumping on the religion bandwagon. Some of these 1998 reports were stimulated by a June 1998 Science and the Spiritual Quest Conference organized by Robert John Russell, and sponsored by The Center for Theology and the Natural Sciences (CTNS) at the Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley. Since this is an organization devoted to the reconcilation of science and religion it's no surprise the the speakers were supportive of the idea of the possibility of god and/or an afterlife, though some of the papers were so speculative and abstruse that it's hard to tell whether they were profound philosophy or mere moonshine. One wonders whether some speakers came just for the stipend provided by the John Templeton Foundation. Several Nobel-Prize winning scientists gave papers at this meeting. The papers were mostly philosophical and speculative. No new hard evidence was produced. News reports failed to put these wishful speculations in perspective by pointing out that most scientists are, in fact, not religious. And the percent of "leading" scientists who hold religious beliefs has been declining from around 30% in 1914 to less than 10% in 1998. Wayne Spencer, editor of The Skeptical Intelligencer (a publication of the Association for Skeptical Inquiry) has provided me with this summary of an article in the journalNature which documents this fact.

 

[Links to the CTNS are provided above, but this does not mean that I in any way endorse the opinions expressed at those web sites. For a detailed critique of these bogus science rationalizations, see Victor Stenger's excellent Has Science Found God?, a draft of an article for Astronomy magzaine. For a broader perspective on the science/religion questions, see these Religion and Philosophy links and these Science, Religion and Philosophy links. I also highly recommend Michael Koller's Essays on Science, Philosophy, and Religion. Also see the skeptic links on my web page.] — Donald E. Simanek.

 

[Summary of a paper that appeared in the 23 July 1998 issue of Nature by Edward J. Larson and Larry Witham: "Leading Scientists Still Reject God." Nature, 1998;394, 313.]

 

Larson and Witham present the results of a replication of 1913 and 1933 surveys by James H. Leuba. In those surveys, Leuba mailed a questionnaire to leading scientists asking about their belief in "a God in intellectual and affective communication with humankind" and in "personal immortality". Larson and Witham used the same wording [as in the Leuba studies], and sent their questionnaire to 517 members of the [U.S.] National Academy of Sciences from the biological and physical sciences (the latter including mathematicians, physicists and astronomers). The return rate was slightly over 50%.

 

The results were as follows (figures in %):

     BELIEF IN PERSONAL GOD          1914   1933    1998

     Personal belief                                      27.7    15       7.0

     Personal disbelief                                 52.7    68      72.2

     Doubt or agnosticism                           20.9    17      20.8

 

     BELIEF IN IMMORTALITY           1914    1933    1998

     Personal belief                                    35.2    18       7.9

     Personal disbelief                               25.4    53      76.7

     Doubt or agnosticism                         43.7    29      23.3

 

Note: The 1998 immortality figures add up to more than 100%. The misprint is in the original. The 76.7% is likely too high.

 

The authors elaborated on these figures:

 

Disbelief in God and immortality among NAS biological scientists was 65.2% and 69.0%, respectively, and among NAS physical scientists it was 79.0% and 76.3%. Most of the rest were agnostics on both issues, with few believers. We found the highest percentage of belief among NAS mathematicians (14.3% in God, 15.0% in immortality). Biological scientists had the lowest rate of belief (5.5% in God, 7.1% in immortality), with physicists and astronomers slightly higher (7.5% in God, 7.5% in immortality).

 

Larson and Witham close their report with the following remarks:

 

As we compiled our findings, the NAS issued a booklet encouraging the teaching of evolution in public schools.  The booklet assures readers, 'Whether God exists or not is a question about which science is neutral'. NAS president Bruce Alberts said: 'There are many very outstanding members of this academy who are very religious people, people who believe in evolution, many of them biologists.' Our survey suggests otherwise."

 

There is a review of earlier studies of the religiosity of scientists at pp 180ff of:

Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi and Michael Argyle. The Psychology of Religious Behaviour, Belief and Experience. London & New York: Routledge, 1997. ISBN: 0-415-12330-5 (hbk) or 0-415-12331-3 (pbk).

 

On the subject of eminent scientists, they mention unpublished data collected by one of the co-authors: "Beit-Hallahmi (1988) found that among Nobel Prize laureates in the sciences, as well as those in literature, there was a remarkable degree of irreligiosity, as compared to the populations they came from." The reference is to: Beit-Hallahmi, B. (1988). The religiosity and religious affiliation of Nobel prize winners. Unpublished data.

>>>

This will come as no surprise to most posters on this forum...except those superstitious 'believers' who put their heads in the sand.

"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)

"A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes"...James Feibleman (1904-1987)

Respectfully, Lyz


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Thanks for your detective

Thanks for your detective work, Lyz.

 

 

 


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 You are quite welcome.Next

 You are quite welcome.

Next post...Israeli Nobel prize winners.


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Israeli Nobel Prize Winners

 

Israel

See also: List of Jewish Nobel laureates
  1. Daniel Shechtman, Chemistry, 2011
  2. Ada E. Yonath, Chemistry, 2009
  3. Robert Aumannborn in Germany, Economics, 2005
  4. Aaron Ciechanover, Chemistry, 2004
  5. Avram Hershkoborn in Hungary, Chemistry, 2004
  6. Daniel Kahneman, Economics, 2002
  7. Yitzhak Rabin, Peace, 1994
  8. Shimon Peresborn in what was then Poland, now Belarus, Peace, 1994
  9. Menachem Beginborn in what was then Russia, now Belarus, Peace, 1978
  10. Shmuel Yosef Agnonborn in what was then Austria-Hungary, now Ukraine, Literature, 1966

That's it...10.  Because...I'm sure someone will point out...there was no Country of Israel before 1947.  There may have been Jews who won the Nobel Prize before 1947, but they weren't Israeli.  

Since 1947 (to be fair) the US has 297 Nobel Prize Winners

So now...I'll go back and find out how many Nobel Prize Winners were Jewish from any country.

Nobel Prizes have been awarded to over 800 individuals, of whom at least 20% were Jews. Got to admit that seems like a high percentage.  

 

Literature - 13% of World Total Nobel Prizes awarded to Jews 
1910 - Paul Heyse1927 - Henri Bergson1958 - Boris Pasternak
1966 - Shmuel Yosef Agnon 
1966 - Nelly Sachs
1976 - Saul Bellow
1978 - Isaac Bashevis Singer 
1981 - Elias Canetti 
1987 - Joseph Brodsky 
1991 - Nadine Gordimer World 

Chemistry – 19% of World Total Nobel Prizes awarded to Jews

1905 - Adolph Von Baeyer
1906 - Henri Moissan
1910 - Otto Wallach
1915 - Richard Willstaetter
1918 - Fritz Haber
1943 - George Charles de Hevesy
1961 - Melvin Calvin
1962 - Max Ferdinand Perutz
1972 - William Howard Stein
1977 - Ilya Prigogine
1979 - Herbert Charles Brown 1980 - Paul Berg1980 - Walter Gilbert
1981 - Roald Hoffmann
1982 - Aaron Klug
1985 - Herbert Hauptman
1985 - Jerome Karle
1989 - Sidney Altman
1992 - Rudolph Marcus
2004 - Avram Hershko, Aaron Ciechanover & Irwin Rose
2006 - Roger Kornberg

Physics - 26% of World Total Nobel Prizes awarded to Jews
1905 - Adolph Von Baeyer 
1906 - Henri Moissan
1907 - Albert Abraham Michelson 
1908 - Gabriel Lippmann 
1910 - Otto Wallach 
1915 - Richard Willstaetter 
1918 - Fritz Haber 
1921 - Albert Einstein 

 

 

1922 - Niels Bohr 

 

1925 - James Franck 
1925 - Gustav Hertz 
1943 - Gustav Stern 
1943 - George Charles de Hevesy 
1944 - Isidor Issac Rabi 
1952 - Felix Bloch 
1954 - Max Born 
1958 - Igor Tamm 
1959 - Emilio Segre 
1960 - Donald A. Glaser 
1961 - Robert Hofstadter 
1961 - Melvin Calvin 
1962 - Lev Davidovich Landau 
1962 - Max Ferdinand Perutz 
1965 - Richard Phillips Feynman 
1965 - Julian Schwinger 
1969 - Murray Gell-Mann 
1971 - Dennis Gabor 
1972 - William Howard Stein 
1973 - Brian David Josephson 
1975 - Benjamin Mottleson 
1976 - Burton Richter 
1977 - Ilya Prigogine 
1978 - Arno Allan Penzias 
1978 - Peter L Kapitza 
1979 - Stephen Weinberg 
1979 - Sheldon Glashow 
1979 - Herbert Charle S Brown 
1980 - Paul Berg 
1980 - Walter Gilbert 
1981 - Roald Hoffmann 
1982 - Aaron Klug 
1985 - Albert A. Hauptman 
1985 - Jerome Karle 
1986 - Dudley R. Herschbach 
1988 - Robert Huber 
1988 - Leon Lederman
1988 - Melvin Schwartz 
1988 - Jack Steinberger 
1989 - Sidney Altman 
1990 - Jerome Friedman 
1992 - Rudolph Marcus 
1995 - Martin Perl 
2000 - Alan J. Heeger 

Economics - 41% of World Total Nobel Prizes awarded to Jews
1970 - Paul Anthony Samuelson 
1971 - Simon Kuznets 
1972 - Kenneth Joseph Arrow 
1975 - Leonid Kantorovich 
1976 - Milton Friedman 
1978 - Herbert A. Simon 
1980 - Lawrence Robert Klein 
1985 - Franco Modigliani 
1987 - Robert M. Solow 
1990 - Harry Markowitz 
1990 - Merton Miller 
1992 - Gary Becker 
1993 - Robert Fogel

Medicine - 28% of World Total Nobel Prizes awarded to Jews
1908 - Elie Metchnikoff 
1908 - Paul Erlich 
1914 - Robert Barany 
1922 - Otto Meyerhof
1930 - Karl Landsteiner 
1931 - Otto Warburg 
1936 - Otto Loewi 
1944 - Joseph Erlanger 
1944 - Herbert Spencer Gasser 
1945 - Ernst Boris Chain 
1946 - Hermann Joseph Muller 
1950 - Tadeus Reichstein 
1952 - Selman Abraham Waksman 
1953 - Hans Krebs 
1953 - Fritz Albert Lipmann 
1958 - Joshua Lederberg 
1959 - Arthur Kornberg 
1964 - Konrad Bloch 
1965 - Francois Jacob 
1965 - Andre Lwoff 
1967 - George Wald 
1968 - Marshall W. Nirenberg 
1969 - Salvador Luria 
1970 - Julius Axelrod 
1970 - Sir Bernard Katz 
1972 - Gerald Maurice Edelman 
1975 - Howard Martin Temin 
1976 - Baruch S. Blumberg 
1977 - Roselyn Sussman Yalow 
1978 - Daniel Nathans 
1980 - Baruj Benacerraf 
1984 - Cesar Milstein 
1985 - Michael Stuart Brown
1985 - Joseph L. Goldstein 
1986 - Stanley Cohen & Rita Levi-Montalcini 
1988 - Gertrude Elion 
1989 - Harold Varmus 
1991 - Bert Sakmann 
1993 - Richard J. Roberts 
1993 - Phillip Sharp 
1994 - Alfred Gilman 
1995 - Edward B. Lewis 

Peace - 9% of World Total Nobel Prizes awarded to Jews 
1911 - Alfred Fried 
1911 - Tobias Michael Carel Asser 
1968 - Rene Cassin 
1973 - Henry Kissinger 
1978 - Menachem Begin 
1986 - Elie Wiesel 
1994 - Shimon Peres 
1994 - Yitzhak Rabin 

 I'll just pick one...Albert Einstein...don't believe he was a practicing Jew.  

"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)

"A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes"...James Feibleman (1904-1987)

Respectfully, Lyz


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My elaboration on #20 ButterBattle's post

 Religiosity and intelligence

Studies comparing religious belief and I.Q

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence

 

In 2008, intelligence researcher Helmuth Nyborg examined whether IQ relates to denomination and income, using representative data from the National Longitudinal Study of Youth, which includes intelligence tests on a representative selection of white American youth, where they have also replied to questions about religious belief. His results, published in the scientific journal Intelligence demonstrated that on average, Atheists scored 1.95 IQ points higher than Agnostics, 3.82 points higher than Liberal persuasions, and 5.89 IQ points higher than Dogmatic persuasions. 

 

Nyborg also co-authored a study with Richard Lynn, emeritus professor of psychology at the University of Ulster, which compared religious belief and average national IQs in 137 countries.  The study analyzed the issue from several viewpoints. Firstly, using data from a U.S. study of 6,825 adolescents, the authors found that atheists scored 6 g-IQ points higher than those adhering to a religion.

 

Secondly, the authors investigated the link between religiosity and intelligence on a country level. Among the sample of 137 countries, only 23 (17%) had more than 20% of atheists, which constituted “virtually all... higher IQ countries.” The authors reported a correlation of 0.60 between atheism rates and level of intelligence, which is “highly statistically significant.”

 

Gallup surveys have found that the world's poorest countries may be the most religious. Some social scientists believe this is because religion plays a more functional role (helping people cope) in poorer nations. Because poverty is also correlated with IQ, this could make matters of IQ and religion more complex. That was an idea expressed by Gordon Lynch, a Professor at Birkbeck College in London. He worries that findings simply correlating IQ and religion neglect various relevant factors, especially social, historical and economic factors - each of which has been shown to interact with religion and IQ in different ways.

 

>>> 

Which I would suggest infers that the more tolerant a person is, the more irreligious that person might be and, therefore, the more intelligent the person is. 

 

It’s stretching the evidence…but it works for me.

>>> 

"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)

"A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes"...James Feibleman (1904-1987)

Respectfully, Lyz


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Holy crap, Lyz!Awesome

Holy crap, Lyz!

Awesome follow up!


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redneF wrote:Holy crap,

redneF wrote:

Holy crap, Lyz!

Awesome follow up!

>>>

Thank you.  Did I make my point?  

PS:  Another (IMO) non-Jewish recipient on the list of Nobel Laureates...Henry Kissinger

Here:  Kissinger in '72: Jews 'self-serving bastards'

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4150018,00.html

I don't believe he could count himself a Jew while describing them (Jews) as 'self-serving bastards'.  Or is this an example of self-criticism?  The article refers to him (Kissinger) as a Jewish-American.  I'd describe Kissinger as a naturalized German-American of Jewish ancestry.

Anyway, thanks again.

>>>

"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)

"A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes"...James Feibleman (1904-1987)

Respectfully, Lyz


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Lyzandra Daria wrote:redneF

Lyzandra Daria wrote:

redneF wrote:

Holy crap, Lyz!

Awesome follow up!

>>>

Thank you.  Did I make my point?  

PS:  Another (IMO) non-Jewish recipient on the list of Nobel Laureates...Henry Kissinger

Here:  Kissinger in '72: Jews 'self-serving bastards'

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4150018,00.html

I don't believe he could count himself a Jew while describing them (Jews) as 'self-serving bastards'.  Or is this an example of self-criticism?  The article refers to him (Kissinger) as a Jewish-American.  I'd describe Kissinger as a naturalized German-American of Jewish ancestry.

Anyway, thanks again.

>>>

 

Well, I don't know about Jewish Nobel Laureates but Jews have certainly cornered the market as comedians.  Look at FurryCatHerder her very existence is a joke.

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaE66cl4Bz8


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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Lyzandra Daria wrote:

redneF wrote:

Holy crap, Lyz!

Awesome follow up!

>>>

Thank you.  Did I make my point?  

PS:  Another (IMO) non-Jewish recipient on the list of Nobel Laureates...Henry Kissinger

Here:  Kissinger in '72: Jews 'self-serving bastards'

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4150018,00.html

I don't believe he could count himself a Jew while describing them (Jews) as 'self-serving bastards'.  Or is this an example of self-criticism?  The article refers to him (Kissinger) as a Jewish-American.  I'd describe Kissinger as a naturalized German-American of Jewish ancestry.

Anyway, thanks again.

>>>

 

Well, I don't know about Jewish Nobel Laureates but Jews have certainly cornered the market as comedians.  Look at FurryCatHerder her very existence is a joke.

>>>

Good thing she had a male child.  Her Mitochondrial DNA won't be passed on.  She is 'dead' (her line) and she doesn't even realize it.  

I agree, Furball is a joke...somebody needs to cough her up and spit her out.  Her contributions only serve to prove my point...atheists are smarter or at least have the capability of being smarter given the resources than religio-tards like her.

>>>

"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)

"A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes"...James Feibleman (1904-1987)

Respectfully, Lyz


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Lyzandra Daria wrote: I'll

Lyzandra Daria wrote:

 I'll just pick one...Albert Einstein...don't believe he was a practicing Jew.  

Wow.  Trying really  hard to invalidate the whole "Jew" thing.

Clue #1: "Jew" and "Atheist" aren't mutually exclusive.  There is no "Must Believe In G-d" commandment.  We aren't Christians =or= Muslims.  My goddaughter's parents are both Atheists.  They know the plans I have for their daughter.  And they =knew= the plans when I was made her godmother.  And guess what -- both parents are practicing Jews =and= are raising both of their children to be practicing Jews.

Clue #2: Judaism is also a CULTURE.  The Religion and the History are one.  I think it was AtheistExtremist who put it best -- for non-Jews, the "Old Testament" is a religious text, for Jews it's a History Book.  My ancestors did all that stuff.  Sort of like the Americans kicked British butt in 1776 and again in 1812.

Clue #3: Jews are also a PEOPLE.  You can be an Atheist and hate what the Israeli government is up to these days, and still identify with the Jewish people.

Clue #4: There are about 7 billion people on this rock at the moment and about 12 million Jews.  What's the per-capita ration of "Jews of all sorts of Jew-ness" in that list you put up there?  It's a heck of a lot more than the percentage of Nobel prizes awarded to Jews, that's for sure!

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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Lyzandra Daria wrote:Good

Lyzandra Daria wrote:

Good thing she had a male child.  Her Mitochondrial DNA won't be passed on.  She is 'dead' (her line) and she doesn't even realize it.

Pesky parasitic bacterium -- good riddance!

He got my smarts, tho, and I'd rather he got my smarts than some parasite that infects all our cells Laughing out loud

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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FurryCatHerder

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Lyzandra Daria wrote:

Good thing she had a male child.  Her Mitochondrial DNA won't be passed on.  She is 'dead' (her line) and she doesn't even realize it.

Pesky parasitic bacterium -- good riddance!

He got my smarts, tho, and I'd rather he got my smarts than some parasite that infects all our cells Laughing out loud

>>>

Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is the DNA located in organelles called mitochondria, structures within eukaryotic cells that convert the chemical energy from food into a form that cells can use, adenosine triphosphate (ATP). Most other DNA present in eukaryotic organisms is found in the cell nucleus.

Mitochondrial DNA can be regarded as the smallest chromosome, and was the first significant part of the human genome to be sequenced. In most species, including humans, mtDNA is inherited solely from the mother.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_DNA

Bacteria (/bækˈtɪəriə/ (


//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/21/Speaker_Icon.svg/13px-Speaker_Icon.svg.png
 listen); singular: bacterium) are a large domain ofprokaryotic microorganisms. Typically a few micrometres in length, bacteria have a wide range of shapes, ranging from spheres to rods and spirals. Bacteria are present in most habitats on Earth, growing in soil, acidic hot springs, radioactive waste,[2] water, and deep in the Earth's crust, as well as in organic matter and the live bodies of plants and animals, providing outstanding examples of mutualism in the digestive tracts of humans, termites and cockroaches. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacteria

For a 'parasitic bacterium, mtDNA seems pretty beneficial, IMO.

So...ok.  How you show your appreciation to your mother for allowing you to be born is your business.  I certainly don't care to get into your personal business.  

 

I'll bet your son is pleased to (not having to worry about your mtDNA infecting his daughters should he ever procreate and be blessed with a female child).

>>>

"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)

"A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes"...James Feibleman (1904-1987)

Respectfully, Lyz


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FurryCatHerder

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Lyzandra Daria wrote:

 I'll just pick one...Albert Einstein...don't believe he was a practicing Jew.  

Wow.  Trying really  hard to invalidate the whole "Jew" thing.

Clue #1: "Jew" and "Atheist" aren't mutually exclusive.  There is no "Must Believe In G-d" commandment.  We aren't Christians =or= Muslims.  My goddaughter's parents are both Atheists.  They know the plans I have for their daughter.  And they =knew= the plans when I was made her godmother.  And guess what -- both parents are practicing Jews =and= are raising both of their children to be practicing Jews.

Clue #2: Judaism is also a CULTURE.  The Religion and the History are one.  I think it was AtheistExtremist who put it best -- for non-Jews, the "Old Testament" is a religious text, for Jews it's a History Book.  My ancestors did all that stuff.  Sort of like the Americans kicked British butt in 1776 and again in 1812.

Clue #3: Jews are also a PEOPLE.  You can be an Atheist and hate what the Israeli government is up to these days, and still identify with the Jewish people.

Clue #4: There are about 7 billion people on this rock at the moment and about 12 million Jews.  What's the per-capita ration of "Jews of all sorts of Jew-ness" in that list you put up there?  It's a heck of a lot more than the percentage of Nobel prizes awarded to Jews, that's for sure!

>>>

IMO, considering that Judaism can 'proudly' claim to be the forefather of both Christianity and Islam...two of the three most virulent and hateful religions/superstitions ever conceived by a bunch of equally mentally ill practitioners...all I have to say is good job...well done.

Lest I forget...Abraham was married to his half-sister.  Therefore, Isaac was an inbred moron.  At least Muslims can be happy that Ismael (although the product of Abraham's relationship with his wife's slave) were just bastards and not inbred morons.

>>>

"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)

"A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes"...James Feibleman (1904-1987)

Respectfully, Lyz


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Lyzandra Daria

Lyzandra Daria wrote:

 

Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is the DNA located in organelles called mitochondria, structures within eukaryotic cells that convert the chemical energy from food into a form that cells can use, adenosine triphosphate (ATP). Most other DNA present in eukaryotic organisms is found in the cell nucleus.

Mitochondrial DNA can be regarded as the smallest chromosome, and was the first significant part of the human genome to be sequenced. In most species, including humans, mtDNA is inherited solely from the mother.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_DNA

 

You might want to look up theory regarding the origins of mitochondria --

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endosymbiotic_theory

The rest was tongue-in-cheek.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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Lyzandra Daria wrote:IMO,

Lyzandra Daria wrote:

IMO, considering that Judaism can 'proudly' claim to be the forefather of both Christianity and Islam...two of the three most virulent and hateful religions/superstitions ever conceived by a bunch of equally mentally ill practitioners...all I have to say is good job...well done.

Lest I forget...Abraham was married to his half-sister.  Therefore, Isaac was an inbred moron.  At least Muslims can be happy that Ismael (although the product of Abraham's relationship with his wife's slave) were just bastards and not inbred morons.

>>>

Judaism isn't the forefather of either religion.  Neither are consistent with having their origins within Judaism.

That said, several hundred million people are descendents of Abraham.  You may well be one of those off-spring of an inbred moron or a mere bastard!

But for inbred morons, we is rily smart and gots lots of book learnin'.  I saw me one of them gold medals in a box of chocolates, so I ate it!

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


Lyzandra Daria
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FurryCatHerder

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Lyzandra Daria wrote:

 

Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is the DNA located in organelles called mitochondria, structures within eukaryotic cells that convert the chemical energy from food into a form that cells can use, adenosine triphosphate (ATP). Most other DNA present in eukaryotic organisms is found in the cell nucleus.

Mitochondrial DNA can be regarded as the smallest chromosome, and was the first significant part of the human genome to be sequenced. In most species, including humans, mtDNA is inherited solely from the mother.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_DNA

 

>>>

You might want to look up theory regarding the origins of mitochondria --

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endosymbiotic_theory

The rest was tongue-in-cheek.

Might not. 

Unless it can be proved that an alien species mated with early hominids...don't care.

>>>

"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)

"A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes"...James Feibleman (1904-1987)

Respectfully, Lyz


Lyzandra Daria
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FurryCatHerder

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Lyzandra Daria wrote:

IMO, considering that Judaism can 'proudly' claim to be the forefather of both Christianity and Islam...two of the three most virulent and hateful religions/superstitions ever conceived by a bunch of equally mentally ill practitioners...all I have to say is good job...well done.

Lest I forget...Abraham was married to his half-sister.  Therefore, Isaac was an inbred moron.  At least Muslims can be happy that Ismael (although the product of Abraham's relationship with his wife's slave) were just bastards and not inbred morons.

>>>

Judaism isn't the forefather of either religion.  Neither are consistent with having their origins within Judaism.

That said, several hundred million people are descendents of Abraham.  You may well be one of those off-spring of an inbred moron or a mere bastard!

But for inbred morons, we is rily smart and gots lots of book learnin'.  I saw me one of them gold medals in a box of chocolates, so I ate it!

>>>

Sorry to disappoint you...Semitic people didn't get as far north as my family came from.

Both Christianity and Islam are considered Abrahamic religions...IIUC.  

Maybe because you don't remember or choose to forget...I'll provide your own words...#1 response to my post

FHC wrote:

The bigger irony is that neither Judaism nor Islam are as hostile towards Science as the Evangelical Christians are.  There's nothing wrong with a Jew or Muslim believing in the Big Bang =or= Evolution, and once again it would appear that the Church is going to enter a brand new age of Darkness while the other two Abrahamic faiths (ahem) don't ...

Was I wrong to assume you were inferring that Christianity and Islam are separate superstitions from the same 'root' i.e., Judaism?

Or were you just trying to say that Evangelist Christians and Episcopalian Christians 'are the other two Abrahamic faiths'?  That wouldn't make sense, would it?

So...I can only assume that you need a good dose of oxytocin

My advice...go masturbate.  You will feel much better.

>>> 

"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)

"A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes"...James Feibleman (1904-1987)

Respectfully, Lyz