Jesus Lives, and He Loves.

ImAJesusFreak
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Jesus Lives, and He Loves.

Jesus still loves all people. And you can still be saved. Why would you not want to believe in God? There's so much bad in the world that it's amazing to know He is there to protect and love. And after life, I love knowing that I'm going to be in an amazing place called Heaven with all my loved ones that have passed on before me, instead of just going in the ground.

I am praying for each and everyone one of you hoping that you will come to know Christ as your personal savior.

Any questions about Christ? Contact me at karabo95@yahoo.com

God Bless.


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freeminer wrote:Quote:You

freeminer wrote:

Quote:
You claim that Jesus said none was good but god. 

Quote:
read it for yourself

I did, that's why I can quote it - your point is?

Quote:
Apologies for the stream of consciousness responses and for not bothering to keep track of the quote tags.

no problem.

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You didn't cite Christ - you cited Paul's convert who wrote those words and attributed them to Christ.

1] This irrationally presupposes [ie it is contra all the historical and scholarly evidence] that the writer's testimony is inaccurate

2] All the evidence is that the writer was NOT a convert of Paul.

3] Your assertion irrationally presupposes that the Bible is not God's communication to Man and therefore trustworthy.  

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Huge difference.

were it true

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It's not a gift - it's contingent on unconditional obedience. Gifts are given without expectation of return.

1] scripture terms it a "gift". Therefore, in God's view it is a gift.

2] No man is capable of consistent obedience, unconditional or otherwise.

3] Scripture asks what man can give to God [I can quote if you like]. I do the same. The idea stems from hubris and constitutes the ROOT of religiosity.

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I never said the law didn't continue to exist - it just doesn't apply to believers. Romans 4:15, remember?

ok, Paul is expounding on the functioning of Law and Grace. 

 Here's Romans 4:14.

 5For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.

Let's look at the sense in which the Law does and does not apply to the believer.

In the above quote Paul asserts that the existence of the law CREATES sin - simple example.....it was not sin for Cain to marry his sister because, at the time there was no law against it. ie. sin is what God says it is.........and as Paul says, HAS TO [legally and philosophically] fall under God's judgment.

When someone chooses to live under Grace, God "imputes" the righteousness of Christ to him ie. God says he will remember his sin no more. He considers Christ to have paid for that sin at Calvary. The Christian can't be condemned for sin because from God's point of view his sin, past, present and future, no longer exists.

BUT

God says , "I will write my law on their hearts" In other words,  the Christian is to live under the constant direction of the indwelling Holy Spirit who shows him what is sin for HIM. So it is possible for the Christian to grieve the Spirit by his behaviour and, until he deals with the issue, to damage his effectiveness and his relationship with God.

Thus, as you say, the written law does not apply to the believer. Then you say:

Quote:
All you have done by quoting that section from Romans 2 is show that Paul can't keep his stories straight (he changes again in Romans 6). 

I think I quoted this:

12     For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13     (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14     For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15     Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one anotherEye-wink

then in Romans 6 Paul writes:

1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

You're not explicit, but I think you're complaining that one moment Paul is asserting that the Christian cannot sin and the next plainly stating that he can. I hope I've explained this above.  As Paul says in ch.6, the power of sin is broken because it is human nature to do things he is told not to do. The Christian is to be drawn into obedience by his OWN willingness to become more like Christ [ie, by the power of love] not cajoled into it by a set of rules - which is the definition of religion.

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I agree that the 603 other laws are impossible to keep. Why do you want to get rid of the ten easy ones (many of which atheists keep better than Christians).

Firstly, the problem with law is once you break one of them your fox is shot. Secondly, do people find it easy to keep the "ten"? - I see little sign  of this.

 

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Paul didn't become a Christian.

a Christian is someone who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit [Biblical definition]. Paul clearly was.

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The creator of a religion can't be a follower as well.

false premise.

  1. Romans 1:9
    For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I mention you
    Romans 1:8-10 (in Context) Romans 1 (Whole Chapter)

 

Quote:
You keep forgetting that Jesus never started a religion as he was still an observant Jew and would have slapped Paul for what he wanted to do if they met.

Paul was an observant Jew. Many Christians are also observant Jews. Paul's ministry was explicitly approved by the Jerusalem church, which was packed with Jews. 

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Funny how there is nothing about Jesus establishing Paul's church that wasn't written by Paul's Greek converts, huh?

because the assertion is based on a false premise having absolutely zilch evidence.

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Paul created Christianity because Christian doctrine came from his epistles and the gospels that his converts wrote - Jesus was a Jew.

people on sites such as this choose their delusion..........this is obviously yours. It's a shame that you consider your eternal welfare worthy of so little basic study. 

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You like to keep forgetting this. It had nothing to do with Greeks calling Paul's followers Christians in Antioch. After all, they were called atheists in Rome but I don't see you claiming that title.

what a Christian IS has nothing to do with the label. We term Jewish "Christians", 'Messianic Jews', their spiritual status is identical. Your notion is a religious one.

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Christianity is not popular because of the rules. It is popular because of the forgiveness that allows its adherents to break them continually as long as they come back and "confess" as needed.

this is also a religious idea. If you knew the Holy Spirit, you would understand that he has ways and means of achieving sanctification! 

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Incidentally, christians never needing to repent after sinning is quite Calvinistic.

Calvinistic or not, it's a Biblical one. The Christian "confesses" ie. he recognises his 'sin' for what it is.

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I may not be able to teach you church history but you definitely aren't qualified to teach me the Bible.

I apologise for my lack of qualification.........I'll continue  to do my best.

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I can see that you're sola fidei but you need to actually read the scripture instead of cherrypicking it becfore you are sola scriptura.

unless one is sola scriptura from the outset, it implies that one perceives some other text to be inspired in toto. This would be a presumption without theological or philosophical, historical or textual basis. Rationally, one expects an exegesis to be consistent with other scriptures and to present, with them, coherent doctrine and worldview. When an exegesis fails this test, THEN one might bring a charge of "cherrypicking". As it is, YOU are the one failing ,  by your own admission, to recognise its coherence. This may be due to justifiable lack of knowledge, understanding or both but there is no point in claiming to understand while  simultaneously demonstrating that you don't. The question is.........do you think it important enough?

Paul was a pagan - he made up his "I'm a Pharisee" story. He wanted to be but didn't have the intellectual chops. If he were a Pharisee, he would not have gone into the employ of the High Priest at that time (who was a Sadducee).

Bible history tells me that though we don't know the names of the authors the dates of the writings show they were Pauline converts.

The Christian recognizes his sin for what it is, asks for forgiveness, and commits the sin again when it it convenient. Isn't forgiveness wonderful?

If I knew your version of the holy spirit I'd have to be in full agreement with you. I don't want you as my God.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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freeminer wrote:Vastet

freeminer wrote:

Vastet wrote:
That's rich, seeing as you're the one with an invisible friend.

 

Is this supposed to be masquerading as an argument? You don't believe in love because it' invisible; you don't believe in creativity, honor, truth, morality or any human values because they're "invisible" so you define your life by tiny parameters because most of the entities which make it worthwhile are "invisible" This is your poverty and deep irrationality.

The Greeks anthromophosized many of these attributes, Love = Aphrodite, Creativity = The Muses, Honor = Athena etc...
I'm not willing to ceed the existence of the Olympian pantheon, perhaps you are.

But, your bad analogy goes no where near showing the possibility or probability that an invisible, intangible sentient being exists. Yes, some things are 'invisible'... concepts and abstractions... like your god, derived entirely from the mind.

LC >;-}>

 

Christianity: A disgusting middle eastern blood cult, based in human sacrifice, with sacraments of cannibalism and vampirism, whose highest icon is of a near naked man hanging in torment from a device of torture.


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Quote:Is this supposed to be

Quote:
Is this supposed to be masquerading as an argument?

It was an observation, not an argument. And you and every theist like you fails to address it every single time.

Also, love, creativity, honour, truth, morality and all other human values are directly observable. Not invisible at all.

The only absentee is god, for which there is no observable evidence.

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Quote:First of all, God does

Quote:
First of all, God does not exist merely because you or anyone else simply wishes him to.

BINGO! Now, take your own advice in rejecting the claims of others and aim it at yourself.

"Allah does not exist merely because you or anyone else simply wishes him to"

"Vishnu does not exist merely because you or anyone elese simply wishes him to"

"Yahweh does not exist merely because you or anyone else simply wishes him to"

"Thor does not exist merely because you or anyone else simply wishes him to"

How about this?

God does not exist. God/s/deity/s/entities/super natural, are merely the adult version of an infant wanting a parent to protect them. Sugar pills by any name are STILL sugar pills.

I cannot take any claim of a thinking being seriously when it involves making claims that this claimed being has no material to think with.

If you want to go around claiming such absurdities, I won't stop you, but do not expect me to simply go "it must be true because he said so". I don't do that for other people's claims of their pet gods and I will not do it for you either.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Quote:Paul was a pagan - he

Quote:
Paul was a pagan - he made up his "I'm a Pharisee" story.

evidence? It is because you regard the existence of God as a 'wild assertion' that you regard the idea as irrational.

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He wanted to be but didn't have the intellectual chops.

whatever status one ascribes to the Bible, this claim is trashed by his body of writing. 

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If he were a Pharisee, he would not have gone into the employ of the High Priest at that time (who was a Sadducee).

scripture shows both groups working together where there was a common agenda.

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Bible history tells me that though we don't know the names of the authors the dates of the writings show they were Pauline converts.

Bible history tells you no such thing. Even in secular terms such an idea is irrational.........and a joke in terms of Biblical scholarship.

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The Christian recognizes his sin for what it is, asks for forgiveness, and commits the sin again when it it convenient.

your ignorance of how the Spirit operates is only to be expected. 

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Isn't forgiveness wonderful?

yes...............get it.

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If I knew your version of the holy spirit I'd have to be in full agreement with you.

 

get the Bible's version, then...........yes you would.

 

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I don't want you as my God.

 

it isn't on offer.

'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.


freeminer
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Quote:First of all, God does

Quote:
First of all, God does not exist merely because you or anyone else simply wishes him to.

Quote:
BINGO! Now, take your own advice in rejecting the claims of others and aim it at yourself.

this is bizarre! I reject the "claims of others" as a consequence of personal epistemology. I direct you to the source of that knowledge. I cannot help that you choose not to avail yourself of it. Your implied contradiction of my subjective knowledge is simultaneously a contradiction of your OWN claimed empiricism...........you do it constantly.......you can't help yourself!

Quote:
"Allah does not exist merely because you or anyone else simply wishes him to"

"Vishnu does not exist merely because you or anyone elese simply wishes him to"

"Yahweh does not exist merely because you or anyone else simply wishes him to"

"Thor does not exist merely because you or anyone else simply wishes him to"

but the implication that my "knowledge" is merely wish fulfillment is just another unevidenced assertion and denial of empiricism. The challenge is whether it is rational to check it for yourself! 

Quote:
How about this?

God does not exist. God/s/deity/s/entities/super natural, are merely the adult version of an infant wanting a parent to protect them. Sugar pills by any name are STILL sugar pills.

as someone just said, an assertion is NOT an argument......pseudo-psychology won't plug the gap.

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I cannot take any claim of a thinking being seriously when it involves making claims that this claimed being has no material to think with.

this is just an admission of lack of imagination..........

you believe in all sorts of things you can't see.

why do you presume that 'thought' can only ride on neurons?........you must be aware that we can show that you know what you are going to do before you are conscious of  knowing it. Music can ride on vinyl, magnetic tape, plastic, air, light..........the Bible says, "God is light and in him is no darkness at all". 

Quote:
If you want to go around claiming such absurdities,

the problem for you is that you can't identify a basis on which to show that the God conjecture is "absurd". ie. irrational - thus it remains something you just presume  because it fits your personal predilections, which may have been caused by anything........an abusive religious upbringing; bad potty training.......who knows?........pseudo-psychology abounds. 

Quote:
I won't stop you, but do not expect me to simply go "it must be true because he said so". I don't do that for other people's claims of their pet gods and I will not do it for you either.

no I don't expect this. My hope would be that you would assess all the evidence rationally and conclude that it is not irrational to conjecture that the Bible is God's communication with Man and put it to the test. 20th century philosophy concluded that the alternative is absurd.

'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.


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Quote:the problem for you is

Quote:
the problem for you is that you can't identify a basis on which to show that the God conjecture is "absurd".

No such thing as a non material super brain with magical super powers. Never was, never will be. Claims of such by any name are the same as claiming Klingons are real an vampires are real. No such thing,

No Allah, No Vishnu no Jesus, no Thor, nadda, ziltch, zero..................All comic book claims invented by humans as a gap fill to placate their emotions and egos.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Quote:That's rich, seeing as

Quote:
That's rich, seeing as you're the one with an invisible friend.

 

Quote:
Is this supposed to be masquerading as an argument? You don't believe in love because it' invisible; you don't believe in creativity, honor, truth, morality or any human values because they're "invisible" so you define your life by tiny parameters because most of the entities which make it worthwhile are "invisible" This is your poverty and deep irrationality.

Quote:
The Greeks anthromophosized many of these attributes, Love = Aphrodite, Creativity = The Muses, Honor = Athena etc...
I'm not willing to ceed the existence of the Olympian pantheon, perhaps you are.

the Greeks anthropomorphised them precisely BECAUSE they understood the very philosophical problem which modern materialists seek to deny! Anthropomorphising it didn't solve it..........that's because they ended up with a basis for diversity but none for unity.

Quote:
But, your bad analogy goes no where near showing the possibility or probability that an invisible, intangible sentient being exists.

the proof is for you, not me...........if something is a "possibility", rationally, we test it. This site claims that the IDEA is absurd.............I'm waiting for it to be proved since it is such a tenet of your faith. 

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Yes, some things are 'invisible'... concepts and abstractions...

ah.........you mean "immaterial".........and where pray is the universal which gives meaning to all these "abstractions"? It isn't in my head because my head is just a particular head and it ain't in yours for the same reason. Congratulations!..........you've just shown that without God all communication is just presumed as an act of faith.........a bit late, others realised this way back in the 60's.

Quote:
like your god, derived entirely from the mind.

evidence?..........point me to the man who suggested the Trinity.

 

 

'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.


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Brian37 wrote:Quote:the

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
the problem for you is that you can't identify a basis on which to show that the God conjecture is "absurd".

No such thing as a non material super brain with magical super powers. Never was, never will be. Claims of such by any name are the same as claiming Klingons are real an vampires are real. No such thing,

No Allah, No Vishnu no Jesus, no Thor, nadda, ziltch, zero..................All comic book claims invented by humans as a gap fill to placate their emotions and egos.

 

keep telling yourself this Brian.........don't make the corner of that comfort blanket soggy!

'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.


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Vastet wrote:*Victory by

Vastet wrote:
*Victory by concession* And another one bites the dust.
Quote:
The principle of energy loss for useful work still applies in an open system, since there is no benefit unless there is a mechanism to use the energy added, as my post pointed out. I await your solution with interest.
Guess this guy never heard of ophotosynthesis. But at least he's entertaining in his ignorance of science and logic.

 

oh dear, I was just longing for someone to fall for this...........just point me to any scientist who proposes photosynthesis as the mechanism by which the proto-organism dirrected energy!!!!!!! Have you ANY clue of its chemical complexity?.........obviously not and btw, logic is immaterial, atheists don't believe in immaterial entities.........but then, you thiink love is observable...........go on, pull out a lump and show us! 

 

'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.


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freeminer wrote:Brian37

freeminer wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
the problem for you is that you can't identify a basis on which to show that the God conjecture is "absurd".

No such thing as a non material super brain with magical super powers. Never was, never will be. Claims of such by any name are the same as claiming Klingons are real an vampires are real. No such thing,

No Allah, No Vishnu no Jesus, no Thor, nadda, ziltch, zero..................All comic book claims invented by humans as a gap fill to placate their emotions and egos.

 

keep telling yourself this Brian.........don't make the corner of that comfort blanket soggy!

You say while looking through the holes of your security blanket - way to go Linus.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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jcgadfly wrote:freeminer

jcgadfly wrote:

freeminer wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
the problem for you is that you can't identify a basis on which to show that the God conjecture is "absurd".

No such thing as a non material super brain with magical super powers. Never was, never will be. Claims of such by any name are the same as claiming Klingons are real an vampires are real. No such thing,

No Allah, No Vishnu no Jesus, no Thor, nadda, ziltch, zero..................All comic book claims invented by humans as a gap fill to placate their emotions and egos.

 

keep telling yourself this Brian.........don't make the corner of that comfort blanket soggy!

You say while looking through the holes of your security blanket - way to go Linus.

He's the one postulating the naked assertion of a magical invisible super brain with a magic wand, but I am the one fooling myself? I want to be shocked and surprised but unfortunately Dawkins moth seems to be the norm and over rides reason far more often than not.

He dismisses the magic wands of other god/s without a second thought, but cant apply that same logic to his own claims. It is a sad part of our evolution that this placebo gap filling continues.

I only hope for his sake he wakes up before he wastes his entire life on a myth.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Two victories in one topic.

Two victories in one topic. I'm on a roll.

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How fascinating to again

freeminer wrote:

Vastet wrote:
That's rich, seeing as you're the one with an invisible friend.

 

Is this supposed to be masquerading as an argument? You don't believe in love because it' invisible; you don't believe in creativity, honor, truth, morality or any human values because they're "invisible" so you define your life by tiny parameters because most of the entities which make it worthwhile are "invisible" This is your poverty and deep irrationality.

 

come face to face with the christian belief that only jesus lovers are completely human. The rest of us writhe in the squalor of lives sucked dry of a sense of goodness. Creativity, honor, truth, morality and human values are concepts derived from the human brain. In case it's escaped your attention, we all have one. 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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 Quote:You say while

 

Quote:
You say while looking through the holes of your security blanket - way to go Linus.

 

"it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God"

'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.


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Quote: come face to face

Quote:

 

come face to face with the christian belief that only jesus lovers are completely human.

your capacity for missing the point is, in the true sense of the word, wonderful! YOU are the the ones who go around not only avowedly  HOLDING but actively promoting a perverted idea of what a human being IS, to the detriment of the unsuspecting.

Quote:
The rest of us writhe in the squalor of lives sucked dry of a sense of goodness.

it's an interesting admission but no, I don't think you're "sucked dry of a sense of goodness". You have a sense of morality, you just don't know why. 

Quote:
Creativity, honor, truth, morality and human values are concepts derived from the human brain.

classic reductionism which tells us nothing. If "honor" is just electro-chemical activity, it has no more significance attached to it than the signal in your ipod.  

Quote:
In case it's escaped your attention, we all have one. 

  you make me question it.

'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.


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Vastet wrote:Two victories

Vastet wrote:

Two victories in one topic. I'm on a roll.

 

"tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies"........there is no deluded like the self-deluded.

'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.


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 Quote:He's the one

 

Quote:
He's the one postulating the naked assertion of a magical invisible super brain with a magic wand, but I am the one fooling myself?

1]"magic" is still a misapprehension

2] You believe in the invisible too.

3] A "naked assertion" would be an 'unevidenced assertion' - you have so far failed to demonstrate this.

Quote:
I want to be shocked and surprised but unfortunately Dawkins moth seems to be the norm and over rides reason far more often than not.

prove the postulate to be unreasonable.

 

Quote:
He dismisses the magic wands of other god/s without a second thought,

untrue, but if you'd care to compile a shortlist of those you consider rationally worthy of consideration I'm sure it would make fascinating reading. 

 

Quote:
but cant apply that same logic to his own claims.

 

you've implied disapproval of my "dismissal" of "other gods" without sufficient thought and then implied that I should apply the same treatment to the God of the Bible. You term this "logic"!!! I suppose it does at least constitute preaching what you actually practice! Incidentally, I thought atheists were defined by their lack of belief in gods!!

Quote:
It is a sad part of our evolution that this placebo gap filling continues.

there isn't a part which isn't sad.......but for pseudo-science we'd call it 'adaptation' and be done with it

 

Quote:
I only hope for his sake he wakes up before he wastes his entire life on a myth.

thanks but it's ok..........I have another.

 

'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.


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freeminer wrote:Vastet

freeminer wrote:

Vastet wrote:

Two victories in one topic. I'm on a roll.

 

"tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies"........there is no deluded like the self-deluded.

The only one telling lies is you and it is you doing it to yourself.

It is a flat out lie that cognition can exist outside biological evolution. There is no such thing as a disembodied brain with magical super powers.

You are doing the same anthropomorphism that the Egyptians did in falsely believing the sun was a god. Invisible friends are merely the evolutionary flaw in placebo gap filling to comfort oneself and shelter oneself that they are finite. It is the human flaw of conflating our natural need for a parent and needlessly turning it into a utopia fictional super hero. You merely want a super hero, the problem is there is no such thing.

This is it. I am sorry you cant see that. Reality is much more awe inspiring than any ignorant ancient myth written in an unscientific past.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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freeminer wrote:Vastet

freeminer wrote:

Vastet wrote:

Two victories in one topic. I'm on a roll.

 

"tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies"........there is no deluded like the self-deluded.

If you really wanted to prove my claim wrong you'd address my arguments instead of leaving them unchallenged and projecting onto me the very action you are participating in.

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freeminer wrote:  "it is a

freeminer wrote:

 

 

 

"it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God"

 

                  ....the true motivation for all professing Christians stripped down to its bare essentials.......their relationship to God is simply a system of reward and punishment, like lab rats.  Take away the carrot on a stick ( the promise of rewards ) and watch Christianity disappear in a puff of smoke.

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.

"The best government is a benevolent tyranny tempered by an occasional assassination." Voltaire ( 1694-1778 )


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freeminer wrote: Quote:You

freeminer wrote:

 

Quote:
You say while looking through the holes of your security blanket - way to go Linus.

 

"it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God"

Is that your polite way of saying, "My daddy will show you when you meet him"?

Sorry. If a Muslim threatened you with Allah, you wouldn't take that seriously. You might worry what they would do to you, but not their fictional god.

Threatening me with a fictional being would be like threatening me with Lex Luthor. I might have to be afraid of the people who believe these myths, but I have no reason to be afraid of a non material brain concept. Non material brains do not exist.

And from strictly a moral standpoint, that would make your god character a bully and a tyrant. In real life in western society a man cannot threaten his wife if she wants to leave him.

So on top of threatening me with a myth, you value tyranny too. If you want to worship a being that uses fear to control you, I cant stop you. But the "fear" you actually try to sell me, is actually your own fear you inflict on yourself by buying such a horrible myth.

Healthy relationships are by consent not bribery or threats. The character of the bible is fiction and I am glad it is fiction for if such a being were real it would horrify me to think my mind and my body only exist by the force and whims of someone I cannot reason with or leave if I chose.

 

 

 

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Quote:The only one telling

Quote:

The only one telling lies is you and it is you doing it to yourself.

you just can't show it Brian

Quote:
It is a flat out lie that cognition can exist outside biological evolution.

1] "It is a flat out lie" presupposes the existence of truth. You are unable to propose a basis for truth.

2] Your statement evinces an ignorance of scientifically proven fact.

3] "biological evolution" remains undefined in this exchange. 

Quote:
There is no such thing as a disembodied brain with magical super powers.

1] Do you mean it is irrational to conjecture the existence of an intelligence superior to that of Man?  Why?

2]  "There is no such thing as" is a statement which:

a] you have no evidence for.

b] all the extant evidence suggests is untrue.

3] The Christian does not believe impersonal power ie. "magic".     

Quote:
You are doing the same anthropomorphism that the Egyptians did in falsely believing the sun was a god.

It is correct to say that Egyptian deification of impersonal entities was anthropomorphism. The idea that the Jews "anthropomorphised"   an invisible entity WITHOUT evidence is, of course ridiculous. The first person to have come up with such a notion would have been laughed out of court for PRECISELY the same reasons that YOU consider it ridiculous.ie. you irrationally consider the evidence not to BE evidence. BUT the historical record shows that this invisible  entity evidenced himself to the whole nation on multiple occasions. When we come to the New Testament, God anthropomorphised himself! For me to do so would be superfluous!  

Quote:
Invisible friends are merely the evolutionary flaw in placebo gap filling to comfort oneself and shelter oneself that they are finite.

pseudopsychology abounds.......I have many friends whom, just at this moment, are invisible to me. For me to doubt their existence on this basis would be highly irrational. You irrationally presuppose that an epistemological shift is impossible merely on the basis that you've never experienced one. It's akin to asserting that enjoyment of opera is impossible for others because you've never experienced it. 

Quote:
It is the human flaw of conflating our natural need for a parent and needlessly turning it into a utopia fictional super hero. You merely want a super hero, the problem is there is no such thing.

more pseudopsychology. This bit ignores a fundamental characteristic of human nature, that each wants to be his OWN super-hero.

Quote:
This is it. I am sorry you cant see that. Reality is much more awe inspiring

you are in "awe" of a cosmic accident? You irrationally mock the "invisible" while we empirically conclude that 90 per cent of matter is invisible. You are totally blind to your own contradictions. 

 

Quote:
than any ignorant ancient myth written in an unscientific past.

then.......you turn around and impliedly lay claim to a basis in science!! The Bible, that "ancient myth from an unscientific past" spoke of the "fabric" of space, thousands of years before Einstein; of the "fountains of the deep" thousands of years before the invention of the submarine, of the "circle of the earth" thousands of years before spaceflight. How did Job know the earth is suspended on nothing?

Job 26:7
He stretches out the north over empty space; He hangs the earth on nothing.
Job 26:6-8 (in Context) Job 26 (Whole Chapter)

Your pseudopsychology is a refuge from the empirical facts; a comfort blanket between you and a holy God.  

 

'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.


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 Quote:You say while

 

Quote:
You say while looking through the holes of your security blanket - way to go Linus.

 

"it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God"

Quote:
Is that your polite way of saying, "My daddy will show you when you meet him"?

I shouldn't have credited you with so much discernment Brian. It is an EXPLANATION for why I don't regard God as a comfort blanket.

Furthermore, I don't threaten you. Nobody appointed me as your judge.

Furthermore God does that which he ALWAYS does........he gives people what they want.

'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.


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freeminer wrote:  "it is a

freeminer wrote:

 

 

 

"it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God"

 

Furthermore God does that which he ALWAYS does........he gives people what they want.

 

Yes, God gives people what they want in much the same way the Italian Mafia did.  But nobody ever suggested worshiping John Gotti. 

 

                                 (   ...it's an analogy, so if that significance is lost on you, that's not my fault. )

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.

"The best government is a benevolent tyranny tempered by an occasional assassination." Voltaire ( 1694-1778 )


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freeminer wrote:you just

freeminer wrote:
you just can't show it Brian

Whether he can or can't, did or didn't is irrelevant. I did, and so have others, so he's still right.

freeminer wrote:
1] "It is a flat out lie" presupposes the existence of truth. You are unable to propose a basis for truth.

The definition of truth was already provided to you. You failed to respond, and lost the point by default. Attempting the same shit with someone else in the same topic significantly reduces my estimation of your intelligence.

I'd continue, but most of that could be refuted by a third grader. And you won't respond when I defeat your points anyway, you'll just keep repeating the same lies over and over again.

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More unsupported assertions

freeminer wrote:

Quote:

 

come face to face with the christian belief that only jesus lovers are completely human.

your capacity for missing the point is, in the true sense of the word, wonderful! YOU are the the ones who go around not only avowedly  HOLDING but actively promoting a perverted idea of what a human being IS, to the detriment of the unsuspecting.

Quote:
The rest of us writhe in the squalor of lives sucked dry of a sense of goodness.

it's an interesting admission but no, I don't think you're "sucked dry of a sense of goodness". You have a sense of morality, you just don't know why. 

Quote:
Creativity, honor, truth, morality and human values are concepts derived from the human brain.

classic reductionism which tells us nothing. If "honor" is just electro-chemical activity, it has no more significance attached to it than the signal in your ipod.  

Quote:
In case it's escaped your attention, we all have one. 

  you make me question it.

 

If mind is not matter, if feelings are not chemical, then what are they? Provide definitions and data, please. Specifically, if honour is not a human concept, derived biochemically inside the human brain, what actually is it?

So far, you have added nothing to the debate, you just keep moaning out an appeal to consequences while indulging in sly adhom. You don't make a coherent case Freeminer, you simply deny the only material evidence we have in favour of your own motivated reasoning with a fringe of insult. 

And please stop appealing to complexity. If you don't know the answer, just admit it. This is a thing called intellectual integrity.  

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Vastet wrote:freeminer

Vastet wrote:
freeminer wrote:
you just can't show it Brian
Whether he can or can't, did or didn't is irrelevant.

truth may well be irrelevant to you....it comes as no surprise 

[quoteI did, and so have others, so he's still right.

is this supposed to be a statement of truth?

Quote:
 "It is a flat out lie" presupposes the existence of truth. You are unable to propose a basis for truth.

Quote:
The definition of truth was already provided to you. You failed to respond, and lost the point by default.

Truth  requires an absolute .....neither you nor anyone else has been able to provide one. In fact, based on your performance so far, I doubt you understand the question. 

Quote:
Attempting the same shit with someone else in the same topic significantly reduces my estimation of your intelligence. I'd continue, but most of that could be refuted by a third grader.

there speaks a man who thought photosynthesis would be a great source of dircted energy!!!! 

Quote:
And you won't respond when I defeat your points anyway,

you appear to be inhabiting a parallel universe........I must have got the feeling early on that you just weren't up to it..........you haven't put in the greatest performance have you? 

Quote:
you'll just keep repeating the same lies over and over again.

how would you tell?

 

'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.


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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

freeminer wrote:

 

 

 

"it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God"

 

                  ....the true motivation for all professing Christians stripped down to its bare essentials.......their relationship to God is simply a system of reward and punishment, like lab rats.  Take away the carrot on a stick ( the promise of rewards ) and watch Christianity disappear in a puff of smoke.

 

a precious insight to be treasured for all time...........you guys really do get confused about whether he exists or not don't you?!!

'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.


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Vastet wrote:freeminer

Vastet wrote:
freeminer wrote:

Vastet wrote:

Two victories in one topic. I'm on a roll.

 

"tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies"........there is no deluded like the self-deluded.

If you really wanted to prove my claim wrong you'd address my arguments instead of leaving them unchallenged and projecting onto me the very action you are p

articipating in.

Sorry, I haven't noticed anything from you that begins to look like an argument.

'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.


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Quote:truth may well be

Quote:
truth may well be irrelevant to you....it comes as no surprise 

Projecting your own lying nature onto me just reduces what little credibility you have left.

Quote:
Truth  requires an absolute

No, truth requires ACCURACY. Absolutes are irrelevant and examples of ridiculously irrational thinking in the hands of a theist. You can't even explain why you need absolutes for truth. Subjectivity is more than sufficient.

Quote:
there speaks aq man who thought photosynthesis would be a great source of dircted energy!!!! 

More lies. You must follow the god of liars. I said photosynthesis was a mechanism capable of absorbing energy from the sun when you claimed there was nothing on earth which could utilise the energy the sun provided.

It's like talking to a two year old! LOL

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Quote:you appear to be

Quote:
you appear to be inhabiting a parallel universe........I must have got the feeling early on that you just weren't up to it..........you haven't put in the greatest performance have you?

Says the guy who's been getting his ass handed to him every time he fires up the computer provided by the very science he decries.

You are an example of that which is too stupid to avoid extinction. That makes me happy. Smiling

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freeminer wrote:Quote:The

freeminer wrote:

Quote:

The only one telling lies is you and it is you doing it to yourself.

you just can't show it Brian

Quote:
It is a flat out lie that cognition can exist outside biological evolution.

1] "It is a flat out lie" presupposes the existence of truth. You are unable to propose a basis for truth.

2] Your statement evinces an ignorance of scientifically proven fact.

3] "biological evolution" remains undefined in this exchange. 

Quote:
There is no such thing as a disembodied brain with magical super powers.

1] Do you mean it is irrational to conjecture the existence of an intelligence superior to that of Man?  Why?

2]  "There is no such thing as" is a statement which:

a] you have no evidence for.

b] all the extant evidence suggests is untrue.

3] The Christian does not believe impersonal power ie. "magic".     

Quote:
You are doing the same anthropomorphism that the Egyptians did in falsely believing the sun was a god.

It is correct to say that Egyptian deification of impersonal entities was anthropomorphism. The idea that the Jews "anthropomorphised"   an invisible entity WITHOUT evidence is, of course ridiculous. The first person to have come up with such a notion would have been laughed out of court for PRECISELY the same reasons that YOU consider it ridiculous.ie. you irrationally consider the evidence not to BE evidence. BUT the historical record shows that this invisible  entity evidenced himself to the whole nation on multiple occasions. When we come to the New Testament, God anthropomorphised himself! For me to do so would be superfluous!  

Quote:
Invisible friends are merely the evolutionary flaw in placebo gap filling to comfort oneself and shelter oneself that they are finite.

pseudopsychology abounds.......I have many friends whom, just at this moment, are invisible to me. For me to doubt their existence on this basis would be highly irrational. You irrationally presuppose that an epistemological shift is impossible merely on the basis that you've never experienced one. It's akin to asserting that enjoyment of opera is impossible for others because you've never experienced it. 

Quote:
It is the human flaw of conflating our natural need for a parent and needlessly turning it into a utopia fictional super hero. You merely want a super hero, the problem is there is no such thing.

more pseudopsychology. This bit ignores a fundamental characteristic of human nature, that each wants to be his OWN super-hero.

Quote:
This is it. I am sorry you cant see that. Reality is much more awe inspiring

you are in "awe" of a cosmic accident? You irrationally mock the "invisible" while we empirically conclude that 90 per cent of matter is invisible. You are totally blind to your own contradictions. 

 

Quote:
than any ignorant ancient myth written in an unscientific past.

then.......you turn around and impliedly lay claim to a basis in science!! The Bible, that "ancient myth from an unscientific past" spoke of the "fabric" of space, thousands of years before Einstein; of the "fountains of the deep" thousands of years before the invention of the submarine, of the "circle of the earth" thousands of years before spaceflight. How did Job know the earth is suspended on nothing?

Job 26:7
He stretches out the north over empty space; He hangs the earth on nothing.
Job 26:6-8 (in Context) Job 26 (Whole Chapter)

Your pseudopsychology is a refuge from the empirical facts; a comfort blanket between you and a holy God.  

 

I certainly can SHOW you.

Here:

"My book of snarfwidget says"

There, I just made a claim. So it must be true by default because I strung some letters together.

You have inflicted yourself with a delusion. You fail to consider the reason you believe is merely because the idea of having a super hero protect you is appealing to you.

Popularity of a claim doesn't make it true by default, otherwise Allah would be real because he has the most fans.

Popularity of tradition doesn't make something true by default, otherwise the earth really would be flat.

The reality is very simple to explain in biological evolution. Our species did not evolve with all the answers. Along with that we evolved constantly having to make split second decisions to survive. Unfortunately that evolution produced psychological gap filling. That trait manifests itself through our anthropomorphic imaginations and produce superstitions as a placebo way to cope with our own ignorance of reality.

You believe in your pet god claim for the same reason every human today and in our species history has. You want to believe it so badly despite the scientific fact that there is no such thing as a consciousness outside biological evolution. There never has been, or ever will be such a thing as a non material thinking entity OF ANY KIND BY ANY NAME.

It is merely our own stupid attempt to replace our parents and avoid the reality that we are finite.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Quote:If mind is not matter,

Quote:
If mind is not matter, if feelings are not chemical, then what are they?

the "if" isn't quite good enough is it? Your speaker cable is not, itself the music, but then neither is the electro-magnetic signal which rides on them. Clearly neither are the same thing as the music.

Quote:
Provide definitions and data, please.

if you want experimental data in the field, I'd have to go looking. I know a lot of work has been going on in the field at a university near me. The question is, what techniques does materialistic science have to investigate the non-material? The most fundamental question is, what definition does one accept of what a man IS and why?

Yours and mine are obviously very different. I accept the Bible's definition of Man as more than his material constituents. So for me, the brain is simply the interface between the spirit and the body whereas you have somehow to find "consciousness" within the brain which is basically the question you ask here:

Quote:
Specifically, if honour is not a human concept, derived biochemically inside the human brain, what actually is it?

this is the problem for evolutionary atheism........until it can explain a non-material entity, which runs counter to its whole world view, residing within a material entity, it cannot assert the existence of ANY values, including honor. Values are always JUST electro-chemical activity - why should one attach meaning to them by which we justify expectations of ourselves or other people? And this only deals with the physical/material aspects. We could then move on to the philosophical aspects.

This is why the atheist, when in debate, appears to live a very constrained life! It always seems one is talking to someone for whom the full range of human needs and emotions is just foreign territory...........it really is like talking to 'hollowed out' people. Obviously that is not the case, but what IS the case is that you don't have anywhere to put all those human experiences which your worldview doesn't accommodate/explain. Basically, it forces you to live dichotomous lives and I'm sorry if it sounds patronising but I feel sympathy for you.

I am not putting this forward as a reason why anyone should accept the Bible. I don't hold with "God of the Gaps" arguments........I don't see the need to. The fact that atheism has problems both empirical and philosophical is not OF ITSELF a reason to believe that the Bible is the communication of a super-intelligence.  I complained to AiG about this and ended up in a brief discussion with Jason Lyle their cosmologist. I'm not convinced that he understood the point in the end. AiG's approach is to take the Bible as a priori fact. They don't seem to have noticed that atheists complain about this all the time. I think the atheist is perfectly entitled to a rationale for conjecturing  that the Bible is what it claims to be.

That in short is why I hold to the Bible's definition of Man. Not because it gives me a scientific explanation but because I came to believe on rational grounds that it is the communication of a super-intelligence whom I can trust.

Quote:
So far, you have added nothing to the debate, you just keep moaning out an appeal to consequences while indulging in sly adhom.

with respect, much of my time has to be spent in trying to get atheists to think straight!!!! They really are crammed full of, "magic" "leprechauns", "fairies and invisible friends" that it is a real struggle to get them to focus on the simple concept that a reasonably intelligent person can hold a contrary view, the absurdity of which they're utterly convinced of.........and some of their adhoms are not so sly. I have to treat it as foreplay and hope the real thing will follow.           

Quote:
You don't make a coherent case Freeminer, you simply deny the only material evidence we have in favour of your own motivated reasoning with a fringe of insult.

no I don't deny material evidence, though you and I could debate what constitutes evidence and how we know it is. 

Quote:
And please stop appealing to complexity. If you don't know the answer, just admit it. This is a thing called intellectual integrity.
 

I regard the whole "complexity" thing as a total red herring........we can have that debate if you like. 

 

 

'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.


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Brian37 wrote:If you want to

Brian37 wrote:

If you want to go around claiming such absurdities, I won't stop you, but do not expect me to simply go "it must be true because he said so". I don't do that for other people's claims of their pet gods and I will not do it for you either.

You've avoided the conversation between Ktulu and me, haven't you?!?

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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freeminer engages in

freeminer engages in repetition of refuted arguments and still has no evidence. The hole just keeps getting deeper.

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freeminer wrote:Quote:You

freeminer wrote:

Quote:
You say while looking through the holes of your security blanket - way to go Linus.

"it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God"

Yes, it sure is.  That would be the same Living G-d who has commanded you NOT to engage in paganism and polytheism.  Your three-in-one scheme, fabricated out of whole clothe by an ex-communicated Pharisee wannabe, falls far short of "You will have no other gods besides me".

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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freeminer wrote: Quote:You

Translation, "I am going to hide behind my veiled threat and pretend I wasn't doing that".

"He gives people what they want"

BULLSHIT, so why isn't Angelina Jolie sucking my dick right now? Why do my Redskins suck? But even more importantly why is my own mother suffering mobility problems? I am sure she loves not being able to drive or walk . I am sure she loved having to give up her house and depend on others at a retirement home. My mom said to god "Thats what I want".

There is no god. There is only you swallowing an absurd and patiently immoral concept as a claim.

Simple human psychology, not some stupid myth, explains reality and WHY you buy such absurdities. You merely like the idea of having a super parent with a magic wand. You merely don't want to face your own finite existence. Deity belief in human evolution exists because humans default to filling in gaps with placebos as a coping mechanism.

You have nothing and you base your morality and existence on fantasy. You might as well be arguing for the existence of Luke Skywalker and "The Force" and you'd have the same amount of evidence.

I am being harsh on you because I know you and our species can do better than to wallow in myth and superstition. You don't by the myths or gods of others. Understand why you don't and then you'll understand why I reject yours as well.

 

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Quote: Job 26:7He stretches

Quote:
 Job 26:7
He stretches out the north over empty space; He hangs the earth on nothing.
Job 26:6-8 (in Context) Job 26 (Whole Chapter)

Your pseudopsychology is a refuge from the empirical facts; a comfort blanket between you and a holy God.  

 

Quote:
I certainly can SHOW you.

Here:

"My book of snarfwidget says"

There, I just made a claim. So it must be true by default because I strung some letters together.

it's at times like this I have to convince myself I'm talking to an intelligent person.

I made no claim for the authority of Job's words. I simply asked what you considered the basis of his assertion given that we know them to occur in an ancient text.............and you REALLY think your answer worthy of a person with a claim to intelligence?!

ok, so you don't know the answer.

Now, let's look at the 'Book of Snarfwidget'. Please tell us about its origin, its claims and the basis for your faith in it.

 

Quote:
You have inflicted yourself with a delusion. You fail to consider the reason you believe is merely because the idea of having a super hero protect you is appealing to you.

the reason I believe is that I saw the rationality of the proposition that a super-intelligent creator would communicate with his creation. Given the concurrence of the Bible with the facts of the external world and its non-mystical character, it looked like a likely candidate. I put its claims to the test and found them to be true. 

Quote:
Popularity of a claim doesn't make it true by default, otherwise Allah would be real because he has the most fans.

true.....Jesus agreed with you.

Quote:
Popularity of tradition doesn't make something true by default, otherwise the earth really would be flat.

true .........Jesus agreed with you. Though you must surely be aware that the whole 'flat earth' thing is a myth.

Quote:
The reality is very simple to explain in biological evolution.

"the popularity of a claim doesn't make it true by default."

Quote:
Our species did not evolve with all the answers.

this is true.

Quote:
Along with that we evolved constantly having to make split second decisions to survive. Unfortunately that evolution produced psychological gap filling.

were you there or do you have faith in someone who told you?

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That trait manifests itself through our anthropomorphic imaginations and produce superstitions as a placebo way to cope with our own ignorance of reality.

yes, we wrap them up in stories.........like this one. The issue is, which story corresponds with the facts.

Quote:
You believe in your pet god claim for the same reason every human today and in our species history has.

 

Quote:
You want to believe it so badly despite the scientific fact that there is no such thing as a consciousness outside biological evolution.

this is a very confused statement. It implies acceptance of unproven and undefined biological evolution as an a priori fact. It also denies empiricism by claiming special insight into my personal epistemology without providing any other basis. It then oddly presupposes that empirical science is an effective tool for establihing the nature of a non-material entity. Show us a lump of 'consciousness'.                   

 

Quote:
There never has been, or ever will be such a thing as a non material thinking entity OF ANY KIND BY ANY NAME.

you poverty-stricken soul.............no love, beauty, morality, creativity............what a dark, miserable place you inhabit.

Quote:
It is merely our own stupid attempt to replace our parents and avoid the reality that we are finite.

we are indeed finite, the fact that we have a need for an infinite reference point is equally undeniable.

 

 

'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.


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FurryCatHerder

FurryCatHerder wrote:

freeminer wrote:

Quote:
You say while looking through the holes of your security blanket - way to go Linus.

"it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God"

Yes, it sure is.  That would be the same Living G-d who has commanded you NOT to engage in paganism and polytheism.  Your three-in-one scheme, fabricated out of whole clothe by an ex-communicated Pharisee wannabe, falls far short of "You will have no other gods besides me".

READ YOUR OWN WORDS,

Is that what you want to live under? Is that what you want to subject your mind to? Seriously?

"commanded"

That is what a dictator does.

In real life we don't submit to commands. We communicate through advise and consent to what we agree to.

The "God" concept is an authoritarian, with the absolute final say, regardless if we object. We cannot change it we cannot go somewhere else if we don't like it.

THAT as a concept is what you are subjecting yourself to mentally.

If a police officer or judge breaks the law we can have them arrested. If we don't like our government laws we can attempt to change them long term, and we often have.

"Final say" is what a dictator has. I subject myself to what I consent to, not what someone "commands" me to.

This concept is born out of our own species desire to have a parent. Parents are our first form of regulation. But When we grow up we form our own thoughts and seek to be independent of our parents. The god claim as a concept was born in an age of dictators who thought their god fortune was because of a sky daddy who favored them.

The problem with this concept is that it is like a parent who gets off on watching his kids fight over him. It is as horrible as a Jerry Springer episode where to fat redneck chicks fight over a skinny toothless guy.

You worship a dictator mafia boss by virtue of the word "command". Where is your consent in all this? What happens to you if decide "I don't want to hang out with you"? In the real world, people go their separate ways. This concept of "God" strictly as a claim, does not allow you to do that.

Seriously. Pick up your texts and read them as if you never heard of this god and picked it up for the first time. You should see that this literary character is not a nice guy when you dissent and clamors for your attention like a celebrity stalker.

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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1. Infinite reference point?

1. Infinite reference point? Shame you don't have one. Yahweh was created by the people of Canaan.

2. As I said before to you and to others - my morality (and likely the morality of the person you quote) is superior to that of the god of the Bible. Creativity? You can't think of your own God story so you had to borrow one. Where's your creativity again? Love? You get love from a God who command that you love him? Beauty? Well, you might consider some of his killing beautiful - most of us believe them to be reprehensible.

3. Evolution has been proven, defined and observed.

4. Which stories in the Bible match the facts? 

5. Continuation of the species shows that our ancestors made the right decisions.

6. You don't want to base the truth of a claim on its popularity? So...you're not a creationist?

7. Unfortunately Jesus didn't agree with you - he was Jewish.

8. Man is a super-intelligent creator. Creating gods doesn't require super-intelligence.

9. Job was wrong - Gravity is not nothing and the earth isn't hanging anywhere.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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jcgadfly wrote:1. Infinite

jcgadfly wrote:

1. Infinite reference point? Shame you don't have one. Yahweh was created by the people of Canaan.

2. As I said before to you and to others - my morality (and likely the morality of the person you quote) is superior to that of the god of the Bible. Creativity? You can't think of your own God story so you had to borrow one. Where's your creativity again? Love? You get love from a God who command that you love him? Beauty? Well, you might consider some of his killing beautiful - most of us believe them to be reprehensible.

3. Evolution has been proven, defined and observed.

4. Which stories in the Bible match the facts? 

5. Continuation of the species shows that our ancestors made the right decisions.

6. You don't want to base the truth of a claim on its popularity? So...you're not a creationist?

7. Unfortunately Jesus didn't agree with you - he was Jewish.

8. Man is a super-intelligent creator. Creating gods doesn't require super-intelligence.

9. Job was wrong - Gravity is not nothing and the earth isn't hanging anywhere.

I love it when believers try to bring science into it.

"you cant see gravity, just like god, but you know it is there"

No, unlike god which merely requires an imagination and "faith", You can test gravity by jumping off the tallest building with no aid to break your fall. Funny how no sane people will use their "faith" in that context.

It is as stupid an argument as "You cant see air but you know it exists".

And you hit the nail on the head. Creating gods does not take any intelligence at all. I will say, just like multi level marketing scams, it does take intelligence to sell snake oil. But it also requires gullibility to buy it.

Humans have yet to widely understand how easily the human brain can swallow bad claims. Even P.T. Barnum understood this, "There is a sucker born every minute".

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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freeminer wrote:    "it

freeminer wrote:

 "it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God"

 

                  ....the true motivation for all professing Christians stripped down to its bare essentials.......their relationship to God is simply a system of reward and punishment, like lab rats.  Take away the carrot on a stick ( the promise of rewards ) and watch Christianity disappear in a puff of smoke.

 

freeminer wrote:
a precious insight to be treasured for all time
   

 

                                        Really ? you'll treasure the insights as "precious" of an atheist ( me ! )    .....for all time ?     

                                    Wow, I wish I could say the same for you freeminer but you'll be forgotten by me soon

                                   after you've logged off of this forum for the last time.  Kind of funny, isn't it ?

 

freeminer wrote:
...........you guys really do get confused about whether he exists or not don't you?!!

 

                                    Actually, no I don't get confused concerning such matters but you apparently get completely confused 

                                 about how atheists view the alleged existence of God.   ( I had to throw the qualifier "alleged" in so that you

                                 wouldn't again fail to understand that when an atheist mentions "God" it's no different than when a Christian

                                 mentions "Thor."  Understand, or should I dumb it down even more ? )

 

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.

"The best government is a benevolent tyranny tempered by an occasional assassination." Voltaire ( 1694-1778 )


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 Well, what an interesting

 Well, what an interesting few days I've had reading this thread. I can't even tell you how I came across it to be honest (maybe it was divine intervention).

I'm not a stupid man, but neither am I particularly intelligent. Most of what has been written in this thread has gone straight over my head. The arguments and counter arguments do however look impressive to the casual onlooker.

So, why am I even bothering posting if I'm clearly out of my depth? Well I think I just wanted to give my somewhat simpler explanation as to why God doesn't exist. I'm sorry if it doesn't carry the same weight of argument as most of the posts on here but I'd still like to think it's a valid point. Ok here goes...

God doesn't exist because my beautiful  innocent sinless two year old daughter died a slow, painful and harrowing death.

I'm not looking for sympathy or condolences or messages of support. I'm just trying to point out how for me, no more proof is needed that God doesn't exist than my experience. Have I come to this conclusion purely from an emotional standpoint? Maybe when it happened many years ago, but now I actually believe it's a very objective argument based on Gods supposed omnipotence.

I have nothing more to say on that and thank you for listening.

 


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 Well, what an interesting

 Well, what an interesting few days I've had reading this thread. I can't even tell you how I came across it to be honest (maybe it was divine intervention).

I'm not a stupid man, but neither am I particularly intelligent. Most of what has been written in this thread has gone straight over my head. The arguments and counter arguments do however look impressive to the casual onlooker.

So, why am I even bothering posting if I'm clearly out of my depth? Well I think I just wanted to give my somewhat simpler explanation as to why God doesn't exist. I'm sorry if it doesn't carry the same weight of argument as most of the posts on here but I'd still like to think it's a valid point. Ok here goes...

God doesn't exist because my beautiful  innocent sinless two year old daughter died a slow, painful and harrowing death.

I'm not looking for sympathy or condolences or messages of support. I'm just trying to point out how for me, no more proof is needed that God doesn't exist than my experience. Have I come to this conclusion purely from an emotional standpoint? Maybe when it happened many years ago, but now I actually believe it's a very objective argument based on Gods supposed omnipotence.

I have nothing more to say on that and thank you for listening.

 


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Arkwright wrote: Well, what

Arkwright wrote:

 Well, what an interesting few days I've had reading this thread. I can't even tell you how I came across it to be honest (maybe it was divine intervention).

I'm not a stupid man, but neither am I particularly intelligent. Most of what has been written in this thread has gone straight over my head. The arguments and counter arguments do however look impressive to the casual onlooker.

So, why am I even bothering posting if I'm clearly out of my depth? Well I think I just wanted to give my somewhat simpler explanation as to why God doesn't exist. I'm sorry if it doesn't carry the same weight of argument as most of the posts on here but I'd still like to think it's a valid point. Ok here goes...

God doesn't exist because my beautiful  innocent sinless two year old daughter died a slow, painful and harrowing death.

I'm not looking for sympathy or condolences or messages of support. I'm just trying to point out how for me, no more proof is needed that God doesn't exist than my experience. Have I come to this conclusion purely from an emotional standpoint? Maybe when it happened many years ago, but now I actually believe it's a very objective argument based on Gods supposed omnipotence.

I have nothing more to say on that and thank you for listening.

 

A little warning here. Emotional reactions to life are not the CORE reason, the most solid reason, to reject a deity claim. This can only address the "problem with all loving and all powerful" strictly as a claimed attribute. It does address a morality inconsistency. But it is not the core reason. It is just one reason.

Look up Epicurus problem with Evil. Today as old as that refutation is, I have yet to see a valid counter to it.

The core reason I reject ALL claims of invisible friends is very simple. Biological evolution is the ONLY place we see the manifestation of a cognition(thinking life). Non material objects do not think.

As horrible as life can be and is sometimes, emotions are not the best gauge to base a position on.

But it would be horrible IF there really was a god up there watching a helpless child die like that and does nothing.

I like to use this metaphor example. How many people would give a good review to a Superman movie if in the movie Superman discovered a man raping a woman in an ally, but sat and watched and waited until the man finished and slit her throat, and then only after that did something?

It is absurd to concoct such a deadbeat character and call that moral. Humans have an excuse because we are not super human. The god of Abraham STRICTLY as a literary character is the most horrible fictional being ever invented and inflicted on society.

I also warn you not to simply say "this happened, it was bad, so therefor there is no god'.

That is only one reason.

You need to educate yourself on lots of things to make your position more solid.

1.Problem withInfinite regress

2. Ocham's Razor

3. Bentrand Russell's teapot

4. Fallacy of Pascal's wager

5. Problems with argument from complexity

Thats just the short list.

I would suggest reading the following books.

1. The God Delusion Richard Dawkins

2. God Is Not Great, Christopher Hitchens

3. The New Atheism, Victor Stinger

4. The End of Faith, Sam Harris

It took me ten years to soak all this in being on line. Time will help you through your strife, but your emotions will cripple you if you dwell on them.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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 Maybe I didn't make myself

 Maybe I didn't make myself clear and I apologise if that is the case...

It is no longer an emotional reason, I've been there and done that. I don't need to seek any reason other than the fact that God in all faiths and religions is omnipotent and therefore had the power to save my daughter. The very fact he chose not to is proof enough for me that he doesn't exist. 

I'm not looking to arm myself with hundreds of reasons so I may refute anything thrown at me by God loving people and I didn't particularly want to enter the debate. I was just trying to give a somewhat simplistic, though in my opinion still valid reason for my beliefs. 

It's been fascinating reading this thread and I feel honoured to have been temporarily in the company of people who have clearly committed a great deal of time and effort to their cause, but I'm quite happy spending the rest of my life knowing God doesn't exist and I have no views one way or another on those that do believe.


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I somewhat disagree. For

I somewhat disagree. For someone who has little experience debating religion, the only guaranteed topic of specialty will be their emotions and morality. It is therefore a logical starting point. I'd guess a significant percentage of atheists initially rejected belief on ethical grounds.

The anti-ethical nature of some religions practically beg such a response. As morality wouldn't even exist without emotions, that gives emotions a powerful argument against religion. Especially any religion which claims people are born knowing god and good and evil.

Granted it isn't a good idea to focus on it alone in perpetuity, but emotions are the very tool the theist uses to justify their belief. Can't hurt to turn it back on them here and there. Like fighting fire with fire.

Just expect to lose a few battles to those theists who specialise in debating religion. But in the process, you'll learn new arguments that are more solid.

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Quote:The very fact he chose

Quote:
The very fact he chose not to is proof enough for me that he doesn't exist.

We agree that it is a reason and does bring up the problem with claiming "all loving" and "all powerful" as a claim. That is certainly a broken concept that does not work ethically or morally. If we were pretending this god with these claimed traits were true, you could only come to the conclusion that such a god is a fucking prick.

But that is NOT the only nail in the coffin nor the biggest nail.

The biggest nail to ANY invisible magical sky daddy claim is that cognition exists only in biological evolution. It does not exist outside evolution. Anyone claiming that has their heads up their asses.

Believe me when my mother was in the hospital after she flipped the van, my believing friends, well intended as they were said stupid shit like, "I'll say a prayer for her", and it took every thing for me not to shout at them "NO YOU FUCKING IDIOT, I TRUST THE DOCTORS, NOT FICTIONAL BEINGS".

So yea, I get it. But that reaction goes in combo with lots of other nails too.

 

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Quote:Just expect to lose a

Quote:
Just expect to lose a few battles to those theists who specialise in debating religion. But in the process, you'll learn new arguments that are more solid.

Totally agree. I was wet behind the ears and ignorant when I first called myself an atheist. I knew absolutely nothing compared to what I know now. I don't like it when someone using that label simply goes "it doesn't make sense". Agreed, but there is a lot more to the on/off debate of atheists vs theists than "it doesn't make sense".

I used to have this fear of theists handing me bible quotes. And back then I wondered needlessly if I was wrong. There isn't anything they can throw at me now that can shake me. It takes lots of learning to hold a position. And that would be true even outside the issue of god/s.

Even in the NFL the offense of one team studies the defense of the other team and vice versea. If the coach said, "Fuck it, you don't need to study them" that coach wouldn't have a job. And even in reality, there are times in that league where a better team will take the lousy team for granted and have their asses handed to them because they slacked off.

There are lots of elaborate claptrap apologists peddle. It isn't wise to simply ignore it, even if you never buy it, because they are selling it to others as well.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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