Jesus Lives, and He Loves.

ImAJesusFreak
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Jesus Lives, and He Loves.

Jesus still loves all people. And you can still be saved. Why would you not want to believe in God? There's so much bad in the world that it's amazing to know He is there to protect and love. And after life, I love knowing that I'm going to be in an amazing place called Heaven with all my loved ones that have passed on before me, instead of just going in the ground.

I am praying for each and everyone one of you hoping that you will come to know Christ as your personal savior.

Any questions about Christ? Contact me at karabo95@yahoo.com

God Bless.


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Welcome to the

Welcome to the forum.

ImAJesusFreak wrote:
Why would you not want to believe in God?

It's not a question of wanting to believe or not. It doesn't change whether or not one actually exists.

That said, I do want there to be a nice god that helps people. That's not the Christian God. Sorry. 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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It's nice that you show

It's nice that you show "concern" but this is not a website for people to preach at us like we are lost puppies. You are welcome to stay and try to make a case for the deity you think is real. But after this original post you posted here, please skip the preaching.

We scrutinize and blaspheme all claims we find not to be credible, not just yours. I'd suggest that if you chose to post again your claims will get slapped around. This has nothing to do with your civil rights or you as a person. We take debate very seriously, but we do not take preaching seriously.

We won't eat your babies or barbecue your kittens. If you cannot present evidence that we can chew on, we merely will not adapt your position. But we are not lost puppies for you to save.

We have lots of one time hit and run posters. I hope you are not another one. You do not have to fear debating us. But you will not get away with preaching at us.

You are welcome to stay, but please do not preach.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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And if you think your case

And if you think your case is strong enough you shouldn't have to hide your case in e-mails, you shouldn't be afraid of making your case here where everyone can see  it.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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What a goulash of

ImAJesusFreak wrote:

Jesus still loves all people. And you can still be saved. Why would you not want to believe in God? There's so much bad in the world that it's amazing to know He is there to protect and love. And after life, I love knowing that I'm going to be in an amazing place called Heaven with all my loved ones that have passed on before me, instead of just going in the ground.

I am praying for each and everyone one of you hoping that you will come to know Christ as your personal savior.

Any questions about Christ? Contact me at karabo95@yahoo.com

God Bless.

 

assertions you have inside your head, Citizen Freak.

To wit, jesus exists, loves, protects, there's a heaven, it's amazing, you're going, your loved ones are all there, dead people are aware of going into the ground. 

You are going into the ground, too, whether you like the idea or not. 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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What;s considered Christianity

in the world presently isn't. All are victims of misinterpretation. Europeans retrofitted Christianity to their world. The Europeans of the dark ages were of no likeness of his character. He shouldn't be blamed for their misunderstandings. They definitely weren't existing within his likeness. They claimed the title but not the guy. They claimed his music but sang their song, so to speak.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers


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Old Seer wrote:in the world

Old Seer wrote:

in the world presently isn't. All are victims of misinterpretation. Europeans retrofitted Christianity to their world. The Europeans of the dark ages were of no likeness of his character. He shouldn't be blamed for their misunderstandings. They definitely weren't existing within his likeness. They claimed the title but not the guy. They claimed his music but sang their song, so to speak.

That speaks volumes about the alleged deity that passed down this book.

Takes over 1,000 years and 40 authors. And cant get humans to agree.

Sounds hardly efficient for an all powerful god.

If this alleged god wrote instructions on how to assemble a 12 speed bike, you'd end up with squid for spokes and a starfish for gears and peanut butter covering the seat.

The fact is that there is no wrong way to interpret the bible. I'd say however, the ones who are more fundie and violent are biblical litteralists. So if anyone is taking the words to heart morso they are.

Give me 1 million believers and I'll give you a million different gods.

What you are trying to falsely employ is the "True scottsman" fallacy. Look it up.

Everyone says about other beleivers "They're not doing it right". And you are no different. And lucky us just happened to find the one guy who did get it right. Let me guess you're the only one in human history who claims to have the truth?

Didn't smell this one comming.......oh wait, yes I did. A mile away like a dump truck full of rotted meat.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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Welcome! ImAJesusFreak

Welcome!

ImAJesusFreak wrote:
Jesus still loves all people.

I don't have sufficient reason or evidence to believe your jesus existed.

ImAJesusFreak wrote:
And you can still be saved.

From what? Oh yeah, the very thing that makes me need saving saves me. Talk about circular logic.

ImAJesusFreak wrote:
Why would you not want to believe in God?

Why would I want to?

ImAJesusFreak wrote:
There's so much bad in the world that it's amazing to know He is there to protect and love.

On the contrary. It's scary and disgusting to think a sentient being could be responsible for so many "evils".

ImAJesusFreak wrote:
And after life, I love knowing that I'm going to be in an amazing place called Heaven with all my loved ones that have passed on before me, instead of just going in the ground.

What you believe is not what is.
While you pray for me, I'll think for you.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Vastet wrote: Oh yeah, the

Vastet wrote:
Oh yeah, the very thing that makes me need saving saves me. Talk about circular logic.

Ahhh....the luv of a spousal abuser...

It's quite persnickety, innit?

The devil is in the details, they say...

 

 

 

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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It actually is a question of

It actually is a question of wanting to believe or not. When you were little, you believed in Santa, therefore, he existed. If you believe in God, he will exist.


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I'm sorry to come across as

I'm sorry to come across as preaching, i wasnt meaning that to happen. And i will gladly debate with everyone and i am not afraid. I believe in my God and will stand up for him. I don't need to hide anything in emails. Ask me and question me about anything right here.

I know i'm going into the ground, but my soul isn't. That's what lives on after you die.

I am not afraid.


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Sure

 

ImAJesusFreak wrote:

It actually is a question of wanting to believe or not. When you were little, you believed in Santa, therefore, he existed. If you believe in God, he will exist.

 

In the context of subjective human experience you can momentarily convince yourself there's an undefinable exo-universal entity who can breach the natural laws to help you and who sent his only immortal son to 'die' for our sins rather than just flat out forgiving people in the normal way. But ultimately all these beliefs are assertions unsupported by testable explanation. 

You can imagine that for the dubious and skeptical the idea of invisible beings roaming around and things existing through confirmation shows a lack of personal integrity. It's not the unbelievers are evil. They just aren't convinced by the evidence. Do you ever have doubts, JF?

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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I'm not gonna lie, not all

I'm not gonna lie, not all loved ones are there. You have to be saved and asked for forgiveness to be there and sadly not everyone does.

Is the Bible not enough evidence to believe there's a God? Over thousands of years, tons of different authors wrote that book. It's not possible to believe that they all could have written about the same thing like they did unless there was a God guiding their thoughts and showing them what to write.


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Crikey JF

 

ImAJesusFreak wrote:

I am not afraid.

 

just relax.

There's no satan, no demons and no monsters around here. Just human beings given to independent thought who are not going to believe assertions unsupported by evidence when propped up by threats (believe or be burned!) or ad hominems (you don't believe because you are proud/immoral/evil/possessed by demons/marked for incineration by god), etc, etc, etc.

If anything scares me it's the moral ambiguity and the moral inconsistency of biblical doctrine. 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Of course i have doubts. And

Of course i have doubts. And the way you're putting it isn't exactly correct. Invisible beings don't just roam around. The Holy Spirit lives inside of us. God is in Heaven, looking down on us. God cannot look on sin, which is why His son died for us. His son was perfect, He could look at him.


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Go ahead, tell me about the

Go ahead, tell me about the inconsistency of the Bible.


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How old are you, JF?

ImAJesusFreak wrote:

I'm not gonna lie, not all loved ones are there. You have to be saved and asked for forgiveness to be there and sadly not everyone does.

Is the Bible not enough evidence to believe there's a God? Over thousands of years, tons of different authors wrote that book. It's not possible to believe that they all could have written about the same thing like they did unless there was a God guiding their thoughts and showing them what to write.

 

You sound a lot like I used to when I was a preacher's kid. You need to think about what you consider to be legitimate proof for things. 

Around here we try to have a standard for evidence and we expect things, by degrees, to meet that standard. 

The claims of the bible, many supernatural, are not born out by evidence of any kind. 

This makes holding up the bible as a form of proof a circular fallacy - the bible is true because it says so in the bible.

It's the basis for every marketing campaign, ever. Yet it's utterly worthless from the point of view of objective testing.

What other claims do you absolutely believe about supernatural things on the basis of some book? None, right?

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Ok

 

ImAJesusFreak wrote:

 

The Holy Spirit lives inside of us. God is in Heaven, looking down on us. God cannot look on sin, which is why His son died for us. His son was perfect, He could look at him.

 

 

prove any one of these truth claims without resorting to the unsubstantiated claims of the bible.

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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You make very broad

You make very broad statements, I can't answer them that well.

The things in the Bible are not supernatural. Jesus was a man on Earth. Nothing about that is supernatural.


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Where do I start with unproven claims of the bible

ImAJesusFreak wrote:

Go ahead, tell me about the inconsistency of the Bible.

 

JF? Everything from the talking snake to Noah's Ark, walking on water, rising from death - whatever takes your fancy. Where is the proof by repeatable experiment for one of these events. And before you claim these things could only be carried out by god not by scientists ask yourself how you know this particular assertion to be true. 

 

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html

 

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Scientists believe we came

Scientists believe we came from monkeys. You really want your ancestors to be monkeys? Then fine. Be my guest.


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ImAJesusFreak wrote:You make

ImAJesusFreak wrote:

You make very broad statements, I can't answer them that well.

So, they're teaching you how to avoid being backed into a corner?

Sorry, kid. That's not a legitimate objection to his question, as it wasn't a broad statement, it was a pointed question to see if you can justify your reasons for believing in something that may not exist in reality.

If you feel you can, try, and see how well you can do.

If you can't, then admit that you can't, and maybe you can learn why the bible raises more questions than it answers, as many of the ex theists on here grew up very strongly having faith in the bible till they began to analyze it more and apply critical thinking to the claims in it to see if it could be simply 'man made' mythology.

 

ImAJesusFreak wrote:
The things in the Bible are not supernatural.

That's incorrect.

The bible is both implicit and explicit in defining God as 'not material'.

 

ImAJesusFreak wrote:
Jesus was a man on Earth. Nothing about that is supernatural.

Incorrect.

The bible asserts that Jesus was an immaculate conception, and not the result of a man's sperm fertilizing a woman's egg, but a woman who gave birth to a 'supernatural' deity's son.

That would be 'supernatural' by any definition of the word.

 

That would mean the Virgin Mary gave birth to a male with only one set of DNA.

That would be a 'miracle', another word for 'divine intervention'.

 

So, you are wrong on all counts.

 

Can you tell us how old you are? And how long have you been exposed to bible?

You are going to be encountered here by many who know the bible better than most preachers and priests. So, if you want to learn more about the bible, this is a good place to analyze it carefully, but not a good place if you think you can defend it rationally and logically.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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Mmmm - look

ImAJesusFreak wrote:

You make very broad statements, I can't answer them that well.

The things in the Bible are not supernatural. Jesus was a man on Earth. Nothing about that is supernatural.

 

jesus was conceived by angelic decree, had huge stars chasing him about the surface of the planet, he was endlessly holding conversations with god - when he wasn't chatting with satan in the desert. I'm blowed if I know how those NT commentators knew what jesus said to satan in the desert when they were alone together. Then there's all those miracles. Scampering about on lake galilee. Multiplying the happy meals. These are not normal human behaviours. The claim jesus was just a man when he was in fact an immortal deity and the son of god is unsupportable.

And as I say, none of us can know if any of these claims are true. Instead we are told to believe or be tormented eternally. Imagine if I was having a debate with some one and instead of offering cogent proofs of my bizarre claims I just pulled out a bucket of gasoline and a box of matches and shouted "Believe me or whump!"

What sort of a person do you think I would be? Is arguing by threat moral or immoral, in your opinion, JF?

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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ImAJesusFreak

ImAJesusFreak wrote:

Scientists believe we came from monkeys. You really want your ancestors to be monkeys? Then fine. Be my guest.

 

No, we have a common ancestor with monkeys but we did not come from them. In addition, it's not a matter of wanting, it's a matter of seeing where the evidence leads us. We are genetically nearly identical to chimpanzees and the human fossil record is nearly complete showing a collection of transitional forms. Do you have any evidence for your deity forming all of humanity that isn't a part of your own scriptures? And if you want problems in the bible I have a list if you'd like those.


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Chuckle

 

ImAJesusFreak wrote:

Scientists believe we came from monkeys. You really want your ancestors to be monkeys? Then fine. Be my guest.

 

DNA evidence shows that humans and chimps shared a concestor 5-7 million years ago (we share 98 per cent of our DNA with chimps) and we diverged from rhesus monkeys 25 million years ago (we share 93 per cent of our DNA with rhesus'). Of course, every single one of the cells in your body is related to the first living single-celled organisms on the planet. Think of it, JF. You are directly related to all life on Earth. Not just monkeys.

You are a colony of single celled organisms living together in a dry suit of skin whose body fluids mirror the primordial ocean you evolved in. This is a wonderful and inspiring thing. Thanks to the specialised cells in your brain, you, JF, are currently part of the self awareness of this universe. Maybe god made his creation this way - it's perfectly possible for you to accept organic co-evolution and still retain your belief in god. Of course, you'll need to lose that literal interpretation of the bible you have going on there. 

Additionally, that point you make above is a fallacious appeal to consequences. You know. If you don't believe my unproven god is real then your ancestor was a nasty, stupid monkey. In fact, genetic evidence suggests both our ancestors was an oceanic bacterium. Perhaps god decided to create life in this way but the bible authors had no evidence of this and they talked to god the same as you and I might do - in their heads and with no direct reply. That means they wrote what they felt was true, not what could be proven to be true using a method of testing tailored to eliminate bias. 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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ImAJesusFreak wrote:It

ImAJesusFreak wrote:

It actually is a question of wanting to believe or not. When you were little, you believed in Santa, therefore, he existed. If you believe in God, he will exist.

I never believed in santa. And even if I did that belief doesn't lend corporeal existence to santa. If belief led to reality then the world would be a different place.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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I hate to say that i

I hate to say that i honestly have no evidence other than the Word of God. But that is what i believe and trust with all my life. God's about faith. Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

You're not supposed to have hard evidence. You're just supposed to believe.

I have been raised in church my whole life. At one point, I was not a full believer, but now I am.

I know that this answer will get a lot of beef, but I'm alright with that.


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You can fight back and try

You can fight back and try to make reason all you want. I believe in God. I wish you guys would consider it.


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No

ImAJesusFreak wrote:

I hate to say that i honestly have no evidence other than the Word of God. But that is what i believe and trust with all my life. God's about faith. Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

You're not supposed to have hard evidence. You're just supposed to believe.

I have been raised in church my whole life. At one point, I was not a full believer, but now I am.

I know that this answer will get a lot of beef, but I'm alright with that.

 

JF - no one's going to victimise you for projecting your upbringing. It was my upbringing, too. My old man was an evangelical minister, my mother a missionary in Lebanon for 10 years in the 1950s. I grew up in the manse, church camps, billy graham concerts and was indoctrinated by repeated exposure to all the ideas you cleave to and no others and I believed as you do now.

Perhaps my first doubts came as I realised what god had planned for those who don't believe. Not people who are evil mind you, just people who have legitimate doubts. Over time I thought more about it and began to consider what my basis of evidence should be. I came to think differently. The fact you admit there's no proof for the bible's supernatural claims is not a weakness on your part. There is no proof and it is a faith issue.

Can you see how it might for other people who need proof they can really accept, that believing things that sound far fetched should be difficult if not impossible to do?

To my mind, searching for meaning and trying to understand why things are the way they are is a wonderful thing. Curiosity is not a sin. But parking your brain by the roadside and refusing to drive it for fear of torture after your death based on absolutely no proof is a sad way to live your one precious life.  There's more to truth than bible. That is a certain thing. 

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Living with God and

Living with God and believing him makes your life amazing. Thats why i don't understand why people want to be without him. He has blessed my life so much and has brought me through so many hard times. And now i have the satisfaction of knowing that even after i die, He will bless me.


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Time

ImAJesusFreak wrote:

And age has nothing to do with anything. Age is but a number.

 

does make a difference. When I was a kid it was all about my relationship with my creator. I was a selfish, undeveloped and vapid thing. As I grew older and other people grew in importance in my mind and my understanding of our mutual human self-ness grew I found myself unable to worship a murdering, torturing god concept. When god burned 'sinners' he burned me

I had moved from pre-conventional morality to post conventional morality and felt a sense of universal altruism. No one whose life lasts long enough to really love other human beings can remain a literalist christian without intensely compromising their personal principles. This you will you surely learn in the course of your long life, JF. 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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But's it's not

ImAJesusFreak wrote:

And now i have the satisfaction of knowing that even after i die, He will bless me.

 

knowing is it JF, it's believing.

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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ImAJesusFreak wrote:I am

ImAJesusFreak wrote:

I am praying for each and everyone one of you hoping that you will come to know Christ as your personal savior.

I'm looking for an impersonal savior, you got any?

 

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


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ImAJesusFreak wrote:Living

ImAJesusFreak wrote:

Living with God and believing him makes your life amazing. Thats why i don't understand why people want to be without him. He has blessed my life so much and has brought me through so many hard times. And now i have the satisfaction of knowing that even after i die, He will bless me.

Lets see, living in reality with the wonder and amazement of nature and believing that this is the only life I have to life is what makes my life amazing. Why would you want to have an invisible friend when you can have real friends. Invisible friends like your god bring you nothing, it is merely you believing anything good in your life is due to your non existent god, how about the bad stuff, do you blame god?


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ImAJesusFreak wrote:

ImAJesusFreak wrote:
Scientists believe we came from monkeys.

The evidence is that humans share a common ancestor with them, but evolved to be a different species.

ImAJesusFreak wrote:
You really want your ancestors to be monkeys? Then fine. Be my guest.

You may not 'want' to admit to yourself what the evidence proves, but like not having a choice as to who your parents were, or their parents, etc... wanting it to be one way doesn't change the reality of who our predecessors actually were.

 

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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ImAJesusFreak wrote: I hate

ImAJesusFreak wrote:
I hate to say that i honestly have no evidence other than the Word of God. But that is what i believe and trust with all my life.

We don't doubt your sincerity.

However, atheists value whether their beliefs are true. Stories are unreliable. History teaches us that. 

 

ImAJesusFreak wrote:
You're not supposed to have hard evidence.

Where does that advice come from??

Do you consider that to be good advice??

Is that in your best interest?

 

ImAJesusFreak wrote:
You're just supposed to believe.

That's what a complete liar would try their hardest to convince you to do, and the last thing that the person who loves you most would do.

Which way would you raise your children?

ImAJesusFreak wrote:
I know that this answer will get a lot of beef, but I'm alright with that.
 

You're being honest. You'll get no beef for that.

And we are not telling you that you are 'just supposed to believe'.

That's the last thing we want anyone to do.

 

Do you see the pattern?

 

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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ImAJesusFreak wrote:Living

ImAJesusFreak wrote:

Living with God and believing him makes your life amazing. Thats why i don't understand why people want to be without him. 

I would prefer to live with God in my life.  It's easier, less responsibility, less care, less worry.  I however pride myself on education, reason, and science.  My higher power is the power of science, and I respect it too much to believe in things that have no proof.  

I know that if I am willing to believe in a God without proof, I should be willing to believe in anything without proof.  I wouldn't want that to happen, I wouldn't want to be a hypocrite.

 

 

ImAJesusFreak wrote:

I hate to say that i honestly have no evidence other than the Word of God.

What if it was just words written by men?  Would you want to believe a lie?  Would you want to base your whole life around it if it was a lie?

 

Quote:
You're not supposed to have hard evidence. You're just supposed to believe.

Name 3 other things you believe in that you have no hard evidence of.  I contend you don't have other things you believe in without evidence.  If I'm right, then you certainly shouldn't give god a free pass.


ImAJesusFreak wrote:

Of course i have doubts. 

That's good.  You should research them.  You'll be blown away at what you find.  Dedicate yourself to research perspectives that are opposite of yours.  Engaging us in a discussion can only expand your horizons.  I hope you keep this thread going.

 

 

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To JF

ImAJesusFreak wrote:

You can fight back and try to make reason all you want. I believe in God. I wish you guys would consider it.

 

 

                      Do you realize that you just admitted that your belief in god IS unreasonable.   I have considered it and I simply cannot live my life based on a fairy tale.  Please continue in this vain you will soon come to be rational weather you are ready for it or  not.

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ImAJesusFreak wrote:It

ImAJesusFreak wrote:

It actually is a question of wanting to believe or not. When you were little, you believed in Santa, therefore, he existed. If you believe in God, he will exist.

 If I believe that there are elves made out of chocolate in my closet, will the elves be there when I open my closet? Surely, you understand the concept that people can believe in things that aren't true. Right?

Edit: Ugh, I had a facepalm pic. But, you seem so sincere, unlike most of the people that come to this site, that I decided to edit it out. I wish we could have a more productive discussion now.

Instead of "irrationalities," would you like this thread to be moved to another subforum where the discussion is more tempered?

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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butterbattle

butterbattle wrote:

ImAJesusFreak wrote:

It actually is a question of wanting to believe or not. When you were little, you believed in Santa, therefore, he existed. If you believe in God, he will exist.

Arrrgggghhhh!

Why do you hate his God so much, Butter?

Why are you so angry at his God?... lol

 

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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No, I can't do it. I'm going

No, I can't do it. I'm going to try to be more polite. This person seems sincere.   

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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I'm with you on that. This

I'm with you on that. This poster does seem sincere.

I just wanted to show how someone who is just questioning the reasoning is falsely alleged to be 'angry' or 'hateful' because they don't simply 'believe' a claim.

 

We have to be honest and show all the methods used to convince people to 'believe'.

I also think it's important that the theist really understand those who cannot simply choose to believe.

 

 

 

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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Brian37 wrote:If this

Brian37 wrote:

If this alleged god wrote instructions on how to assemble a 12 speed bike, you'd end up with squid for spokes and a starfish for gears and peanut butter covering the seat.

ROTFLMAO

Funny and true!

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

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Quote:You're not supposed to

Quote:
You're not supposed to have hard evidence. You're just supposed to believe.

I can't believe without evidence. If I had evidence I could at least choose whether or not to believe god is good, but without evidence for god I can't even believe god exists.

I was never subjected to a church or religious life, and have never encountered anything that could bring me to believe a god exists. Why is he hiding from me?

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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redneF wrote:I just wanted

redneF wrote:

I just wanted to show how someone who is just questioning the reasoning is falsely alleged to be 'angry' or 'hateful' because they don't simply 'believe' a claim.

Right.

I really was dumbfounded by the Santa statement though. That just blew my mind.  

Well, now that this poor kid has noted that we are not so easily convinced and his entire world has been put into doubt, he'll probably run away to recharge his Jesus batteries and never come back to this site. Sad.

Psychologically, granting them too much information which contradicts their beliefs at once will often cause them to mentally shut down. I wish there was a better way, but I guess once they're posting in an open forum, this has to be expected.   

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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ImAJesusFreak wrote:It

ImAJesusFreak wrote:

It actually is a question of wanting to believe or not. When you were little, you believed in Santa, therefore, he existed. If you believe in God, he will exist.

Hm, I've never heard it explained that way by a Christian before

Optimism is reality, pessimism is the fantasy that you know enough to be cynical


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Recovering fundamentalist

Recovering fundamentalist wrote:

ImAJesusFreak wrote:

It actually is a question of wanting to believe or not. When you were little, you believed in Santa, therefore, he existed. If you believe in God, he will exist.

Hm, I've never heard it explained that way by a Christian before

Hey if it gives you something to feel content about, then go ahead and believe (it doesn't bother me), just don't try to mix religion and science, because a literal interpretation of the Bible isn't compatible with science, regardless of what the Young Earth Creationists tell you.

Optimism is reality, pessimism is the fantasy that you know enough to be cynical


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Jesus loves everyone? Really?

Let's just skip for a moment over the questions of the Bible's "reliability," and whether or not Jesus was a myth.  Let's go straight to the question of whether or not Jesus, as presented in the Bible, really loves everybody:

"And behold, a Canaanite woman of that district came and called out, 'Have pity on me, Lord, Son of David!  My daughter is tormented by a demon.'  But he did not say a word in answer to her.  His disciples came and asked him, 'Send her away, for she keeps calling out after us.'  He said in reply, 'I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.'  But the woman came and did him homage, saying, 'Lord, help me.'  He said in reply, 'It is not right to take the food of the children and throw it to the dogs.'"

 

Yes, we all know how this story ended.  The woman accepts the "dogs" label, renews her request, and Jesus compliments her faith and heals her daughter.  But isn't it still kind of shocking to see Jesus calling anybody--an entire group of people in this case--"dogs," as an obvious insult?

Conor Wilson

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"Faith does not fear reason."--Pope Pius XII

"But it should!"--Me

EDIT: I should have given the reference: Matt 15:21-26.  Shame on me.


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ImAJesusFreak wrote:I hate

ImAJesusFreak wrote:

I hate to say that i honestly have no evidence other than the Word of God. But that is what i believe and trust with all my life. God's about faith. Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

You're not supposed to have hard evidence. You're just supposed to believe.

I have been raised in church my whole life. At one point, I was not a full believer, but now I am.

I know that this answer will get a lot of beef, but I'm alright with that.

You are one of the few that has basically told the truth, that is very rare here. You admit to not having any evidence. Good for you.

Of course this answer is going to get beef. Why are you supposed to just believe? Because that is what your family sold you? That is what society sells you? That is what an ancient unscientific book says?

Tradition is not a good excuse. The Egyptians believed the sun was a god for 3.000 years.

Popularity is not a good excuse, Muslims have the most numbers around the world, yet you are not a Muslim.

And If I quoted the Koran, you wouldn't simply "poof" become a Muslim. When anyone quotes a holy book, of any label that is called circular reasoning.

Here is what you are doing:

Used car salesman: "I have this pretty blue car for you"

You: "Where do I sign"

On the other hand, here is what the skeptic does.

 

Used car salesman: "I have a pretty blue car for you"

Skeptic, "Can I have an independent mechanic check under the hood"

Used car salesman: " No, it is a pretty blue, lots of people love blue"

Skeptic, "If, I cant have it checked out, I am not going to buy it"

Used car salesman, "President Obama used to drive one"

Skeptic, "Don't care, you wont let me check it out, see ya"

 

You have faith because you see the appeal others have in it, and you want to feel like you are part of something. You mistake the natural evolutionary trait of socializing as making the label of religion real, when what appeals to you is that you can belong to a group.

Most of the world's population does this. Placebo religions exist because it is a way of socializing. But it does not make Allah, or Vishnu or Thor real. It merely means that humans invent super heros because the idea of having one is appealing.

You were indoctrinated at a very young age. No one taught you that it was ok to question. No one allowed you to think for yourself. You can live your life without a deity. You CAN be a decent person without believing in magical invisible super brains. You are good without Allah. You are good without Vishnu. Nothing has to change in being a good person if you see that the God of the Bible is just as much fiction as all other religions. It wont make you evil. It will simply mean that you have faced reality as it is, and you will no longer base it on mere wishful thinking.

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god, for if there be one, surely he would pay more homage to reason than to that of blindfolded fear" Thomas Jefferson(He was a deist)

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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ImAJesusFreak wrote:I hate

ImAJesusFreak wrote:

I hate to say that i honestly have no evidence other than the Word of God. But that is what i believe and trust with all my life. God's about faith. Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

You're not supposed to have hard evidence. You're just supposed to believe.

I have been raised in church my whole life. At one point, I was not a full believer, but now I am.

I know that this answer will get a lot of beef, but I'm alright with that.

Dear JF. Ijust dropped in after many months away. I didn't think it would be a theist who would provoke me to comment and now I hardly know where to begin.

First of all, God does not exist merely because you or anyone else simply wishes him to. This is nothing more than wishful thinking and so far I haven't read the kind of cutting response which might reasonably have been expected. So let us first establish that God either exists as an objective reality or he doesn't.

Then you say you have no evidence to offer. Asking materialists to believe a proposition without empirical evidence would appear to be a lost cause. As you appear to be a Christian, I will have to disagree with you. If you are a Christian you WILL have evidence because the Holy Spirit will be revealing Christ to you and confirming your salvation to you. Your problem in talking to the guys here is that all of that is personal experience and they just ain't predisposed to take your word for it!!!

So, for future reference here are a few pointers, offered with love in Christ.

You have proof but it is personal. The proof arrived AFTER you took a step of faith. Hopefully you took that step of faith having considered the external facts which are open to consideration by everyone. If you didn't, in accepting Christ, you took a leap of blind faith. This is neither advisable nor necessary and is the first point of misunderstanding by the vast majority of atheists. They think that ALL faith is blind faith. This is because:

a] They presume that Christians never take empirical facts into account [a point of view you have unfortunately given unmerited substance to] 

b] They presume that all the empirical facts support an atheist worldview anyway.             

So firstly, if you would like to strengthen you apologetic position, you will need to swat up on a few of the reasons WHY the empirical facts don't support an atheist worldview.

It may then be worth pointing out to them that ALL knowledge is faith based and held subjectively. They tend to like David Hume, so it's sometimes worth quoting him on the point. You may then find it worthwhile to point out that you can cite a source of objective knowledge whereas they can't and therefore have far better grounds for a claim to "proof".........which, after all, is what they all spend so much time saying they want.

Most if not all are adherents of scientism, so it may be worth pointing out that to conjecture regarding the existence of God is no more irrational than any "scientific" conjecture. This may be substantiated on the basis of simple facts such as, 'a code does not exist without a codifier'. After all, a step of faith, is, at the end of the day, an experiment based on a conjecture. You will find that they will resist the simple logic of this at all costs. Unfortunately, that resistance does not stem from an intellectual objection. By this point in the debate you should have unmasked the intellectual objections. This resistance has a spiritual cause and prayer is probably the only answer! You will find that many of them claim abusive "Christian" experience in childhood. Some, but not all will be Catholic, which they confuse with Christianity . I haven't yet worked out why the percentage is so high but it's notable. It probably constitutes a parenting lesson to Christians......don't ram it down yer kids' throats!

All the best......oh, a couple of things.......don't get discouraged if you don't see conversions. Firstly, people won't admit to it on line anyway and secondly, even if a person doesn't get saved, you'll have shown that his worldview couldn't stand against truth. This is important. Most people hear the Gospel several times from different sources before being saved and if they're not, they can never claim not to have heard the truth......that gives God a basis for judgment! The other thing is, don't stay here too long at a stretch........you'll need spiritual refreshment!

 

 

 

 

'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.


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freeminer wrote:This may be

freeminer wrote:
This may be substantiated on the basis of simple facts such as, 'a code does not exist without a codifier'.

Let me guess. And DNA is a code? Please don't be that lame.

Quote:
After all, a step of faith, is, at the end of the day, an experiment based on a conjecture. You will find that they will resist the simple logic of this at all costs.

Resist?

I see exactly what you mean. I just don't agree. The problem is that experiments and their results can, in principle, be observed and reproduced by anyone. E.g. I don't have to take your word that mixing chemicals X, Y, and Z will make a clear, blue liquid; I can watch you do it, and then, do it myself. True, you can argue that anyone can take a step of faith into Christianity and have their own personal experience, but that doesn't make the process objective. The results still can't be observed by all, and they're not even reproduced because everyone has a unique experience.

Generally, the individual just attributes meaning to whatever they feel confirms their step of faith, any small coincidence, interesting event or positive thing could be a sign. Even a thought could be interpreted as 'not their own thought,' but a message from God. Even if your God really did exist and was communicating to people this way, it's completely indistinguishable from a simple clusterfuck of confirmation bias, wishful thinking, illusory correlations, seeing patterns where none exist, and other psychological pitfalls. Other religions do the same thing.      

Quote:
You will find that many of them claim abusive "Christian" experience in childhood. Some, but not all will be Catholic, which they confuse with Christianity . I haven't yet worked out why the percentage is so high but it's notable.

*sigh*

Quote:
The other thing is, don't stay here too long at a stretch........you'll need spiritual refreshment!

Now, this one is called cognitive dissonance.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare