Matthew 19:21 GIve up your riches.

Jack_Glass_1903
atheist
Jack_Glass_1903's picture
Posts: 28
Joined: 2011-10-26
User is offlineOffline
Matthew 19:21 GIve up your riches.

Let's see how the theists try and wriggle their way out another silly teaching from primitive men 1000's of years ago, people that most likely did not have much to give up anyway. This will be another Theist cherry picking episode. Matthew 19:21.

See link: http://bible.cc/matthew/19-21.htm

The teaching of Jesus suggests that we should give up all our riches to follow him and give to the poor. Right! Given Jesus / God's word is eternal, this statement is as relevant now as it was back then and literally means you give up your comfortable life for that of poverty and only follow Christ & help the poor.

Ok Theists, I don't expect you to be back online once you GIVE your computer to a poor person. In fact I expect you to give a homeless person shelter in your home or give the house to them. Sell your car and give the cash to charity. By doing this you are gathering riches in heaven... so crack on.

Another biblical errancy.

 


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13549
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
I hate the claim that the

I hate the claim that the bible is moral and is absolutely moral.

You can find people on both sides of the economic isle that use the bible to justify their positions.

Should anyone give up their riches? IT FUCKING DEPENDS.

If the majority of a society is doing well then no. But if far too many people are hurting then the people at the top SHOULD WANT TO. Because the chain is only as strong as it's weakest link.

The motif, the idea, the morality claim in the verse you mentioned IS noble. But it is not absolute all the time, nor does that idea need to be handed down by a fictional super hero and written in a comic book.

It simply amounts to, when someone is hurting, you help them, regardless if others notice and do it because you want to, don't do it out of expectation.

Our natural evolutionary ability to be compassionate to the less fortunate, is twisted by the bible, because it ultimately is handed down by a cosmic dictator whose only goal is to get people to suck up to him. In the context of the bible it sets the reader up to only do it because they want attention or want to win brownie points to insure they get into an exclusionary club where outsiders, even if their only "mistake" is picking the wrong god, get tortured forever. It turns the reader into a selfish minion. A mere gang member.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Jack_Glass_1903
atheist
Jack_Glass_1903's picture
Posts: 28
Joined: 2011-10-26
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote:I hate the

Brian37 wrote:

I hate the claim that the bible is moral and is absolutely moral.

You can find people on both sides of the economic isle that use the bible to justify their positions.

Should anyone give up their riches? IT FUCKING DEPENDS.

If the majority of a society is doing well then no. But if far too many people are hurting then the people at the top SHOULD WANT TO. Because the chain is only as strong as it's weakest link.

The motif, the idea, the morality claim in the verse you mentioned IS noble. But it is not absolute all the time, nor does that idea need to be handed down by a fictional super hero and written in a comic book.

It simply amounts to, when someone is hurting, you help them, regardless if others notice and do it because you want to, don't do it out of expectation.

Our natural evolutionary ability to be compassionate to the less fortunate, is twisted by the bible, because it ultimately is handed down by a cosmic dictator whose only goal is to get people to suck up to him. In the context of the bible it sets the reader up to only do it because they want attention or want to win brownie points to insure they get into an exclusionary club where outsiders, even if their only "mistake" is picking the wrong god, get tortured forever. It turns the reader into a selfish minion. A mere gang member.

 

 

 

Nicely said. I'm finding myself getting a lot of wisdom from many posters on here. I was a pentecostal follower in my youth for about 10yrs so i have a little insight into religion. I used to wonder when this verse was mentioned then see the minister drive off in his nice expensive car, t his even better 3 floored house. Things just did not add up, one of the many I may add.

One thing I have always pondered; there are many good people on earth who don't believe in a god but give most of their life to helping others. It seems bizarre they would go to any sort of hell when some well off Christians live in luxury & give much less to society by comparison.

Personally I felt amazing since being rid of the self loathing & stress of religion. It literally was a crucifix on my back.

Scotland The Brave


harleysportster
atheist
harleysportster's picture
Posts: 3273
Joined: 2010-10-17
User is offlineOffline
Jack_Glass_1903

Jack_Glass_1903 wrote:

 

Nicely said. I'm finding myself getting a lot of wisdom from many posters on here. I was a pentecostal follower in my youth for about 10yrs so i have a little insight into religion. I used to wonder when this verse was mentioned then see the minister drive off in his nice expensive car, t his even better 3 floored house. Things just did not add up, one of the many I may add.

One thing I have always pondered; there are many good people on earth who don't believe in a god but give most of their life to helping others. It seems bizarre they would go to any sort of hell when some well off Christians live in luxury & give much less to society by comparison.

Personally I felt amazing since being rid of the self loathing & stress of religion. It literally was a crucifix on my back.

Jesus seemed to preach alot of silly and contradictory ideas.

There seems to be a cultural meme that we have been unable to shake in our society. Where I have noticed that even non-believers of religion (not necessarily Atheists) just non-religious people, will try to assert that Christ had a "good" message. This is one of those memes that people mindlessly repeat without any real substance or thought behind the statement. For instance, statements like "I do not believe in organized religions, but I believe there was a Jesus and he was a great man,".

ARRRGGGGGGHHHHHHH.

I always tell those people to read the New Testament. Jesus curses and kills a freaking FIG tree in a childish display of temper tantrum. Jesus actually grew angry with people that did not immediately walk away from their wives and children. I mean, there is nothing great or moral about the teachings of Jesus.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


Beyond Saving
Silver Member
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 4438
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is offlineOffline
 I know some theists who

 I know some theists who have done exactly that- sold everything and decided to devote their lives to helping to poor and praying to god. Charitable giving is an area where atheists have failed in the past. While the gap has been getting smaller in recent years, religious charities still provide substantially more support to the truly destitute than secular ones and people who attend church regularly consistently donate more to charity. I would love to see more secular food shelves, homeless shelters and especially orphanages. 

I just usually go with my own taste. If I like something, and it happens to be against the law, well, then I might have a problem.- Hunter S. Thompson


Jack_Glass_1903
atheist
Jack_Glass_1903's picture
Posts: 28
Joined: 2011-10-26
User is offlineOffline
Beyond Saving wrote: I know

Beyond Saving wrote:

 I know some theists who have done exactly that- sold everything and decided to devote their lives to helping to poor and praying to god. Charitable giving is an area where atheists have failed in the past. While the gap has been getting smaller in recent years, religious charities still provide substantially more support to the truly destitute than secular ones and people who attend church regularly consistently donate more to charity. I would love to see more secular food shelves, homeless shelters and especially orphanages. 

 

What evidence do you have to support atheists give less to charity?

Religious organisations have to be seen doing this to an extent, comes with the job so to speak and thus we see their groups doing 'gods work' apparently. That's not to say atheists don't donate more via direct debits through their bank, so how can we possibly assume christians give more? Are you basing this on the fact that because it's churches there's more of them?

Atheism is not an organisation like christianity, so it's unfair to compare their charitable efforts on a par with the churches.

Scotland The Brave


ex-minister
atheistHigh Level ModeratorSilver Member
ex-minister's picture
Posts: 1708
Joined: 2010-01-29
User is offlineOffline
Christians meet every

Christians meet every sunday. They are easily organized and are used to opening their wallets and purses. I bet far more of their money has gone to building monolithic churches, preachers and evangelism than helping the poor and needy. It would be a comparative drop in the bucket. Meanwhile atheist have no buildings, no preachers on payroll and no worldwide organization doing evangelism. I would not be surprised that their contributions as individuals is about the same as the religious. It is just not promoted.
Isn't the red cross essentially secular? There must be others.

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


ex-minister
atheistHigh Level ModeratorSilver Member
ex-minister's picture
Posts: 1708
Joined: 2010-01-29
User is offlineOffline
Jack...great minds think

Jack...great minds think alike. Eye-wink


Christians will tell you the rich man story was not for everyone. Jesus knew this man's problem was he loved money more than god. So for him to be saved he needed to give away all his money. The LOVE of money is the root of ask evil.


My issue is a clear directive from Jesus. He said "My kingdom us not of this world" and demonstrated it in word and deed. At least that is how the story goes. Yet Christians live as if they are here to stay, big houses, expensive cars, large churches, well heeled ministers and for me worst of all heavily involved in politics. Jesus and Paul never told their sheeple to get so involved in this world. It was passing away. The investment is in heaven. Render unto Caesars what is Caesars, but give unto god what is gods. Pay your taxes but little else related to this world.

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


Jack_Glass_1903
atheist
Jack_Glass_1903's picture
Posts: 28
Joined: 2011-10-26
User is offlineOffline
ex-minister

ex-minister wrote:
Jack...great minds think alike. Eye-wink

Christians will tell you the rich man story was not for everyone. Jesus knew this man's problem was he loved money more than god. So for him to be saved he needed to give away all his money. The LOVE of money is the root of ask evil.

My issue is a clear directive from Jesus. He said "My kingdom us not of this world" and demonstrated it in word and deed. At least that is how the story goes. Yet Christians live as if they are here to stay, big houses, expensive cars, large churches, well heeled ministers and for me worst of all heavily involved in politics. Jesus and Paul never told their sheeple to get so involved in this world. It was passing away. The investment is in heaven. Render unto Caesars what is Caesars, but give unto god what is gods. Pay your taxes but little else related to this world.

Spot on!

This verse in Mathew is a great example of christian cherry picking. If it don't suit them they shift the goal posts till it does and alter it's original meaning & intended purpose. Many of the Christians in the church i went to where nice / kind people, no denying that, but many were comparatively rich compared to the 3rd world. We're talking well paid professionals like scientists & doctors etc living in the best areas of the town. They did help people out when they could, but they certainly never gave up their home / car or lives general luxuries. Not one of them took a homeless person to their house, the church was used as a barrier for this. None of them went to Ethiopia or Somalia to help the poor, but they did pray for them.

Selective interpretation of the bible really annoys me. If it says something in clear black & white but it's not what Christians want to hear, they start using modern day morality to alter it's parameters. They don't want to help the poor every day, they don't want to be associated with the bibles negatives, which there are plenty of and they for the most part definitely don't want to give up their luxury lifestyles and lay up treasure in heaven.

Scotland The Brave


ex-minister
atheistHigh Level ModeratorSilver Member
ex-minister's picture
Posts: 1708
Joined: 2010-01-29
User is offlineOffline
There are around 500 bible

There are around 500 bible texts related to helping the poor and none related to abortion and only a handful related to homosexuality. Google the Christian Post and look at what subcategories show up.

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


harleysportster
atheist
harleysportster's picture
Posts: 3273
Joined: 2010-10-17
User is offlineOffline
Atheist Charities

 For some reason, my google is acting up on me this morning. ( I really want to throw this laptop through the window sometimes).

Anyway. I googled Atheist Charities and came up with several sites, like ThinkAtheist.org and positiveatheism.org that have lists of all the secular and atheist charities.

If I get a chance, I'll try to put some of the links up later.

Perhaps we could compile a list of Atheist charities and the next time that a theist uses this argument, we can hit him with the list.

 

 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


ex-minister
atheistHigh Level ModeratorSilver Member
ex-minister's picture
Posts: 1708
Joined: 2010-01-29
User is offlineOffline
Another one to watch is

Another one to watch is Worldmag


http://www.worldmag.com/


Exactly what are they focused on? Same as the christian post, lots of politics and making this country safe for Jeebus, since he is not too capable in that area. Makes you wonder if they truly believe.

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


Beyond Saving
Silver Member
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 4438
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is offlineOffline
 http://www.hoover.org/publi

 http://www.hoover.org/publications/policy-review/article/6577

 

Whether you look at the SCCBS, the Giving USA study or any of a dozen other studies you can find people who attend church regularly give more money and volunteer more than people who do not. There have been blind studies done to test charitableness such as putting someone in a room, handing them some money and allowing them to split it between themselves and an anonymous person. Those studies have indicated there is no difference based on religious affiliation. The difference also disappears with organizations like Doctors Without Borders which focuses its recruiting in a professional setting rather than a religious one. Basic fundraising psychology, the more often you ask someone to give the more likely they are to give. 

 

That leads me to the conclusion that the primary reason regular church attendees donate more is because of the organization. When you ask people to donate more, they donate more. Hell, when I do attend a church service I almost always end up donating a little for something. When you attend church, they are always asking for money for some charity or another. Since we don't have that kind of organization to raise funds, I think it is our personal responsibility to make an extra effort to make sure we are being charitable.

 

I do think that we have an opportunity to provide more real help since many "charitable" donations go to build fancy churches and such. Of course, secular charities are not immune to similar scams. The bottom line is that we all should make a better individual effort to give what we can to charity whether we are being asked to or not. 

 

I just usually go with my own taste. If I like something, and it happens to be against the law, well, then I might have a problem.- Hunter S. Thompson


BobSpence
High Level DonorRational VIP!ScientistWebsite Admin
BobSpence's picture
Posts: 5810
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
There are soem silly aspects

There are some silly aspects of some of those commands, if you read them literally.

If you give away everything, you are now poor, so now will be dependent on charity yourself.

Obviously some common sense is required.

As a group, clearly religious charities give more, because there are more of the groups and more individual religious individuals, so we need to compare average individual giving vs religiosity to have some idea of how much that influences individual "charitableness".

And then, as BS suggests, we need to look at the practicalities of how easily individuals can "give", and how often and how strongly they are encourages to donate.

WIthin the context of regular church attendance, that tends to maximize the rate of donation. Of course there is the caveat, what proportion of that donation reaches people in serious need.

I know personally I am a "sucker" for donating to charitable organizations when prompted by phone, and I give based on my knowledge of the organization and my assessment of the neediness of their target, and of course my own financial circumstances, which have been quite 'tight' over recent years. 

People often warn me, especially people I communicate with in the US, that I should beware of scams.

I feel that if some way of certifying such calls, and requests by email and on web-sites, in a truly satisfactory and relatively simple way that could allay the suspicions of the average person more, then this would be a way to maximize contributions without regard to church attendance or religiosity.

Another observation is that national rate of assistance to poor nations is quite high in low-religiosity nations of Northern Europe where it is not dependant so much on individuals, but part of Government commitments, and most people are happy with it coming out of their taxes. If one party is perceived to be either over-generous or stingy in that regard, sufficiently to come to public attention, that will influence voters.

Of course that wouldn't work in a hyper-libertarian, anti-government society like much of the US.

 

 

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


ex-minister
atheistHigh Level ModeratorSilver Member
ex-minister's picture
Posts: 1708
Joined: 2010-01-29
User is offlineOffline
I give regularly to local

I give regularly to local things like the volunteer fire department and a no-kill animal shelter.

One that used to sucker me in was for the police. I actually went up to a cop one day and asked him about an organization. He told me yes they do get a small part just to keep it legal. Now when I get those calls I ask them what percentage actually goes to who they are calling for. It is shockingly low and they are required to provide that information.

You can go here to find out if the charity is worth contributing to

http://www.charitynavigator.org/

What to fi when a charity calls

http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm/bay/content.view/catid/68/cpid/224.htm

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


Old Seer
Theist
Posts: 768
Joined: 2011-11-12
User is offlineOffline
To adhere to all things or anything

in Christianity is voluntary. We say ( the team I'm with) you're not being asked to go to an extreme. Riches are that beyond what one needs. What is being ask is, to share. One of the properties of a Christian is to give up materialism. Riches are normally acquired from a materialistic state of mind that a Christian gives up. . Also, a Christian is one who pursues a simpler life. There is no instruction to give away everything. The idea is to live in moderation. Riches are that which is the acquisition of material things beyond reason. At the same time, it is a request to the people of "his" kind and beliefs not for the entire world. Any request intended for the world not his, is merely to be understood that to be his way this is one of the things necessary. Evidence of this can be derived from-at that time there were plenty of his followers that had an abundance of material things. They weren't required to give all away. Christianity doesn't create absolute law, that is a purpose of civilized leaders (government). Even though there were those with abundance they would have gave to others on grounds of compassion, not solid "have to do" laws. Christianity and civil government are not related. That is one reason "the team" finds that Christianity after about 50 AD was no longer Christianity. The "church" if you will, was taken over by authoritarians  and Christianity doesn't operate by authority over others. After the death and/or removal of the Apostles it went south, so to speak. Today it is the same. Christianity will again return at some time. Even today (for instance0 the middle class has abundance of material things, but aren't considered rich. Most of the middle class today have what lends to their comfort and material stability.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.


Old Seer
Theist
Posts: 768
Joined: 2011-11-12
User is offlineOffline
Brovo

Bob Spence.


iwbiek
atheistSuperfan
iwbiek's picture
Posts: 3284
Joined: 2008-03-23
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote:Should anyone

Brian37 wrote:

Should anyone give up their riches? IT FUCKING DEPENDS.

actually, i think that's spot-on.  what many people forget regarding this particular bit of christic instruction is that it was addressed to a specific person (a rich young man) who had a specific problem (an undefined dissatisfaction with his religious observances).  when he asks what good thing he has to do to get eternal life, jesus tells him to keep the ten commandments.  he protests that he's done this, asking what he "lacks," even though jesus doesn't seem to imply he lacks anything.  so jesus tells him if he wants to be perfect, to give up his riches and follow him as a disciple. 

it's interesting to note, too, the cryptic remark jesus makes when his disciples protest that this is too stringent for any man to be saved: "with man it is impossible, but with god all things are possible" (paraphrase).  ultimately, most exegetes have come to the conclusion that this episode illustrates how futile it is for a man, especially a rich man, to try to enter the kingdom of god by his own efforts.

part of the inconsistency of the gospels is the fact that jesus seemed to want to gravitate away from a one-size-fits-all spirituality.  also, we cannot forget the apocalyptic element in the synoptic gospels, especially mark and matthew.  the episode of the rich young man is a synoptic episode.  if giving away all one's riches would make one dependent on charity, that dependence wouldn't last long, as the kingdom of heaven was coming within a few years.

contrast this with the much more contemplative and spiritualized teachings of the gospel of john, where we see jesus accepting the patronage of the wealthy, such as lazarus and his household, and clearly putting them on an equal spiritual footing with his poor disciples.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen