Scientific Advancement vs. Encroaching on God

Marty Hamrick
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Scientific Advancement vs. Encroaching on God

Often when I post of certain breakthroughs in science, some theist will warn of the dangers of "playing god". When I posted of Dr. Persinger's succes with the "God Helmet", many theists were quick to tell me that Dr. Persinger wasn't really re creating religious and mystical experiences because a "real" RE would "transcend" what Persinger was creating in his lab. Persinger believes that all RE's are produced WITHIN the brain and nothing external. He believes this because this is what his finding show, no evidence of anything external. Theists seem to get agitated by things like this as it is looked upon as an attempt to "debunk" or least challenge their faith.

But what if medical "miracles" such as those claimed at places like Lourdes, France were linked to a recessant gene found in some people? What if this explained the extremely small number of so called "bonifide miracles"? What if the action could be duplicated and successful treatments for things like cancer or Parkinson's Disease were found this way? I'm sure theists would be divided into two camps, those that saw it as God sharing his widom with science and pouring his miracles out to more people and there would be those who would see it as an encroachment upon God's wisdom, that God "knew what he was doing" with the small number of "miracles" and science was messing around where it shouldn't. Which camp would you be in and why?

There are many things in science that make theists nervous. Cloning, genetic manipulation, weather control and others things. What makes you nervous and why? Christian science fiction and fantasy writer, CS Lewis saw any attempts man might make at interstellar space flight to be blasphemy because of the vast distances God put between stars. How do you feel about this and why? Should science be harnessed in what it's allowed to reveal about the "mysteries" of life? Are some areas of knowledge sacred? Why or why not? Many theists see science as one of God's blessings while others see it as satanic "competetiton" Still others see it as both, where do you stand?     

"Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings."


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Lee2216 wrote:jcgadfly

Lee2216 wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:
1. Logical absolutes exist without God

Please explain how?

jcgadfly wrote:
2. There are certain things that are harmful to the continuation of the species. If that's not objective enough for you and you need magic man, fine. It's close enough for me.

What certain things?

 

 

1. A has always been A and will never be ~A. The logical absolutes didn't need God's mind to think of them as God was created much later when humans came on the scene.

2. You don't know what would be harmful to you? I don't know if you should go to church either. It would be safer if you didn't leave the house. The Golden Rule did not come from Jesus originally. It was old when the guys who wrote the OT were young.

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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Louis_Cypher wrote:I don't

Louis_Cypher wrote:

I don't waste my time discussing algebra with my dog, Milo, in spite of the fact that he will sit politely for hours as I talk to him, only interjecting occasionally, or endangering the stuff on my coffee table with his tail. I don't waste my time because in the end, he still won't be able to graph a function... he's a dog.

I don't waste my time discussing science with creationists for the same reason, in the end, they won't get it because they believe in magic and magical solutions.

So, Lee... tell me how the magic works?
How did your god do it?
Can you describe the process of creation from a magical standpoint?

LC >;-}>

 

+1 I request permission to paraphrase this in the future. Smiling

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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I won't discredit the

I won't discredit the evidence based on the source. Though if the evidence is faulty, or the conclusions mistaken, I'll point it out to you.
If you don't provide it at all, however, you concede the point.

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Vastet wrote:I won't

Vastet wrote:
I won't discredit the evidence based on the source. Though if the evidence is faulty, or the conclusions mistaken, I'll point it out to you. If you don't provide it at all, however, you concede the point.

In his defense, he did mention we're not worth it (pearls to the swine).  I believe that's actually a legal process of evidence.  "Your honor, I would provide evidence that my client is innocent, but you're not really worth it.  Please do your own fucking research!".  This guy is a waste of time, I believe that creationists will be eliminated from our species in a few generations as they find less and less females willing to carry the genetic material of such low standard.  How is that for irony, evolution gets proven by eliminating idiots that attempt to disprove it Smiling

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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The greatest irony I've ever

The greatest irony I've ever encountered. Laughing out loud

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Lee2216 wrote:Vastet

Lee2216 wrote:

Vastet wrote:
You have still failed to provide evidence of this despite the fact it's been requested.

I'm not going to give you evidence. The evidence that I would supply would be discredited due to the source. I don't throw pearls to the swine! The evidence is out there you just don't want to believe it due to your presuppositions.

Anyone else guessing the 'source' is the bible?


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HumanVuvuzela wrote:Lee2216

HumanVuvuzela wrote:

Lee2216 wrote:

Vastet wrote:
You have still failed to provide evidence of this despite the fact it's been requested.

I'm not going to give you evidence. The evidence that I would supply would be discredited due to the source. I don't throw pearls to the swine! The evidence is out there you just don't want to believe it due to your presuppositions.

Anyone else guessing the 'source' is the bible?

I was going to guess Star Wars, "Return of the Jedi".

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Louis_Cypher wrote:How did

Louis_Cypher wrote:
How did your god do it? Can you describe the process of creation from a magical standpoint?

How did God create the universe? Nobody knows how God DID it. Science can't explain the origin of life either. God created the universe is more logical than answering nothing created the universe you fool.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


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Lee2216 wrote:Louis_Cypher

Lee2216 wrote:

Louis_Cypher wrote:
How did your god do it? Can you describe the process of creation from a magical standpoint?

How did God create the universe? Nobody knows how God DID it. Science can't explain the origin of life either. God created the universe is more logical than answering nothing created the universe you fool.

Again, until you show God to exist, "God created the universe" and "Nothing created the universe" are identical statements.

Or are you equating God with the logical absolutes?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Brian37 wrote:HumanVuvuzela

Brian37 wrote:

HumanVuvuzela wrote:

Lee2216 wrote:

Vastet wrote:
You have still failed to provide evidence of this despite the fact it's been requested.

I'm not going to give you evidence. The evidence that I would supply would be discredited due to the source. I don't throw pearls to the swine! The evidence is out there you just don't want to believe it due to your presuppositions.

Anyone else guessing the 'source' is the bible?

I was going to guess Star Wars, "Return of the Jedi".

Blasphemer! Die in a bbq!

Lee2216 wrote:

Louis_Cypher wrote:
How did your god do it? Can you describe the process of creation from a magical standpoint?

How did God create the universe? Nobody knows how God DID it. Science can't explain the origin of life either. God created the universe is more logical than answering nothing created the universe you fool.

You just failed horribly. lol. And here I thought we might actually go somewhere.

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Vastet wrote:I won't

Vastet wrote:
I won't discredit the evidence based on the source. Though if the evidence is faulty, or the conclusions mistaken, I'll point it out to you. If you don't provide it at all, however, you concede the point.

The information in DNA is evidence although I know you'll dismiss it. Information can only be produced by an intelligent sender and not natural random processes.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


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Lee2216 wrote:Vastet wrote:I

Lee2216 wrote:

Vastet wrote:
I won't discredit the evidence based on the source. Though if the evidence is faulty, or the conclusions mistaken, I'll point it out to you. If you don't provide it at all, however, you concede the point.

The information in DNA is evidence although I know you'll dismiss it. Information can only be produced by an intelligent sender and not natural random processes.

On what basis do you claim that there is information in DNA and that it had to have come from a God?

Oh and evolution is not random - you keep forgetting that "natural selection" stuff.

Your argument is going from:

1. DNA

2.

3. God

You need to do some work in the middle.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Lee2216 wrote:Louis_Cypher

Lee2216 wrote:

Louis_Cypher wrote:
How did your god do it? Can you describe the process of creation from a magical standpoint?

How did God create the universe? Nobody knows how God DID it. Science can't explain the origin of life either. God created the universe is more logical than answering nothing created the universe you fool.

There was a point when we didn't know what vocanos actually were. There was a point when we did not know what caused hurricanes. When we finally scientifically figured out what they were we found NO cognition behind them. We found that those natural events were a matter of a process, NOT A WHO. Why the fuck should what we don't know about what came before the big bang be any different?

"God did it" is merely our species flaw in gap filling. It is merely our own self projection of human qualities on the world around us. It is a flaw in our evolution mistaking an infant's desire to be protected by a parent.

THAT is literally the root psychology behind why god belief exists. It is not because gods are real or a scientific possibility, but because we as a species, default far too often than not, to projecting our own desires on the world around us, rather than test our observations to insure quality of data.

Every time we look scientifically at biology and see something cognitive there is always a MATERIAL PROCESS involved. Cognition is a product of evolution, not fictional mythological gods. The universe is a product of a WHAT NOT A WHO. A common house fly and cockroaches have brains(physical locations that control their bodies). That is more than your fictional god.

Your god cannot logically scientifically explain anything other than the fact that people are capable of making up and believing absurd crap. It is absurd to believe that the sun is a god, and even more absurd to believe in a non material brain with magical super powers.

I am sorry it frightens you that there is no god. But we are not the ones who made up those absurd claims. We are simply the ones going "that is not true'.

Cognition is not required for evolution or the cause of the universe. The universe was around before life on this planet and it will be around long after our planet dies.

If you are going to believe that there really is a non material thinking entity pulling the strings of our existence then you should believe that Neptune controls the oceans as well. You know Neptune is not real, so it should not be that much of a stretch for you to reject your pet deity as well.

Tradition is not an excuse. Popularity is not an excuse. If our species never questioned social norms our species never would have left the caves.

TRY PLEASE TRY aiming the same logic you use to reject the pet gods of others and aim it at your own claims. If you can do that, you'll understand why we reject your claim as well.

 

 

 

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jcgadfly wrote:Again, until

jcgadfly wrote:
Again, until you show God to exist, "God created the universe" and "Nothing created the universe" are identical statements.

Or are you equating God with the logical absolutes?

They are not identical statements! I know you can't understand the concept because your ignorant of the truth. Jcgadfly has no parents he was just created out of thin air.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


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Lee2216 wrote:jcgadfly

Lee2216 wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:
Again, until you show God to exist, "God created the universe" and "Nothing created the universe" are identical statements.

Or are you equating God with the logical absolutes?

They are not identical statements! I know you can't understand the concept because your ignorant of the truth. Jcgadfly has no parents he was just created out of thin air.

First off "ignorance" when you use it means "bigot!". "Ignorance" when we use it simply means lacking good information and data.

Now if you insist on using that word I'd say "ignorant" is buying into an ancient comic book that is not close to being a science textbook. It was written in an uninformed age by scientifically ignorant people. It was written over a 1,000 year period, by over 40 authors with books left out.

Genesis alone is laughable. It claims adult women popped out of a man's rib. It creates adult plants without photosynthesis. It treats the sun and moon as separate sources of light. Every page of that comic book reads like that.

Not to mention it claims that a baby can be born without two sets of DNA. It also claims that a man survived rigor mortis.

It is completely understandable WHY those things were once believed. There is absolutely no excuse to cling to such myth now that we know better. It would be like teaching today that the earth is flat  while knowing it is not.

Do not try to blame us for crap we did not write. The Church tried to blame Galileo for telling the truth and we all know how that turned out.

You are not special because you quote the bible. You are not special because you claim a non material magical invisible super brain. You are not doing anything differently than the Ancient Egyptians did in falsely believing the sun was a god.

It is 2011, not 329. We have much better information and data about the nature of reality now.

Airplanes and computers and cell phones and medicine and even social equality came about because of sheding social norms and questioning the superstitions of the past. You can claim your pet deity all you want, we will not stop you from doing that. But do not expect us to refrain from knocking your claims around considering where the source came from.

You have a pet god, big whoopty doo. No one is going to hate you for believing such absurdities, but we are going to knock your claims around in hopes you snap out of your delusion.

 

 

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Lee2216 wrote:jcgadfly

Lee2216 wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:
Again, until you show God to exist, "God created the universe" and "Nothing created the universe" are identical statements.

Or are you equating God with the logical absolutes?

They are not identical statements! I know you can't understand the concept because your ignorant of the truth. Jcgadfly has no parents he was just created out of thin air.

I can prove the existence of my parents to any who ask. They are approachable without the need for magic. Bring proof for this God you know exists. Or do you want to follow the infinite regress to the creator of gods?

Me - I don't have to work that hard. Man created god - worship the creator instead of the creation.

If we're ignorant, enlighten us as you were commanded to do in Mark 16:15.

You know that contradicts Matthew 7:6  that you quoted earlier, right?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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Lee2216 wrote:Vastet wrote:I

Lee2216 wrote:

Vastet wrote:
I won't discredit the evidence based on the source. Though if the evidence is faulty, or the conclusions mistaken, I'll point it out to you. If you don't provide it at all, however, you concede the point.

The information in DNA is evidence although I know you'll dismiss it. Information can only be produced by an intelligent sender and not natural random processes.

A DNA strand doesn't contain information, it is information. It contains processes. Interactions. It does not contain blue prints or hardware specifications or libraries or anything else that can be equated with the term information as it is commonly defined.

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Lee2216 wrote:butterbattle

Lee2216 wrote:

butterbattle wrote:
  Edit: Okay, how about this? In your opinion, if evolution were true, would that falsify Christianity?

Evolution is not true! And that is not my opinion.

The Church during Galileo's time "The sun rotates around the earth, and that is not my opinion"

Yea, we all know how that turned out.

Hate to disappoint you, but evolution IS true and is backed up by DNA.

Your book of myth explains nothing about the nature of reality. It is merely your comic book club.

You know damned well you wouldn't buy your own argument if it were a Muslim said "Evolution is not true therefor Allah is the one true god".

Facts are not dependent on your superstition. All life on this planet started from DNA, not magic. Adult women did not pop out of a man's rib. We did not write that crap and we will treat such claim with the scorn it deserves.

The computers humans use do not require belief in Thor or Vishnu. Airliners humans fly on don't require prayer to Allah or Yahweh. The doctor you see does not require an education in Buddhist meditation.

Evolution IS TRUE.

Adenine

Guanine

Thymine

Cytosine

That is not myth or si fi crap. The scientific method and scientists who discovered it did not need any specific religion or specific god or specific holy book to find those things.

You can quote any holy book. You can point to the sun and claim the sun is a god. You can claim that your dog is a god. You can claim that snarfwidgets exist. Making up myth no matter who does it or what myth they desire to be true, will not change the FACTS of reality.

You are simply clinging to a myth and refuse to accept that.  We want you to wake up before you waste your entire life on a myth. The reality that science has uncovered is far more fantastic and "awe inspiring" than the childish myths of the past.

Einstein like the Jewish tradition but called the book a childish myth non the less. Hawkins said that a god is NOT required to explain anything. And most certainly Dawkins understands why biological god belief exists purely as a flaw in our evolution in the form of gap filling, "The moth mistaking the light bulb for moon light".

The fact it takes 100,000 years for one ray of light to travel across our galaxy is amazing to me, and gives me a much bigger picture of how big our universe is, AND THAT IS JUST ONE GALAXY.

I find it more amazing that a red giant sun could, if in place of our sun, have a surface that would extend out past the orbit of Saturn.

I find it incredible that even time is affected by gravity in that our GPS trackers in space have to be adjusted to sink up with time on the surface of the earth with more gravity.

I find the strength of a black hole far more interesting than a stupid book of myth.

ANY MYTH, Mayan, JFK, Big Foot, ect ect ect ect. Woo is woo and superstition is superstition and it will NEVER hold a candle to the reality science continues to uncover.

Please, don't waste your life on "lets pretend". The universe and life in it is far more incredible without making up invisible friends.

It was not true when people believed that volcanos were gods. It was not true when they thought the sun was a god. It was not true when the Church believed that the sun rotated around the earth. It is not true today when Muslims claim Allah picks the sex of the baby based on a verse talking about congealed blood. And your pet god is not needed to explain reality either.

All this sounds harsh to you. I am sorry but while the truth may hurt, you are far better off accepting reality than clinging to a myth. We are trying to help you here escape the grips of your superstition.

 

 

 

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jcgadfly wrote:I can prove

jcgadfly wrote:
I can prove the existence of my parents to any who ask.

I didn't ask you to prove the existence of your parents. I was simply demonstrating a logical concept. You exist because of parents that created you which is analagous to the universe existing because God created it.

jcgadfly wrote:
If we're ignorant, enlighten us as you were commanded to do in Mark 16:15. You know that contradicts Matthew 7:6  that you quoted earlier, right?

If taken out of context it seems to contradict. I guess you forgot why Jesus used parables didn't you? God sends strong delusion to the people that do not believe the truth and have pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


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Lee2216 wrote:jcgadfly

Lee2216 wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:
I can prove the existence of my parents to any who ask.

I didn't ask you to prove the existence of your parents. I was simply demonstrating a logical concept. You exist because of parents that created you which is analagous to the universe existing because God created it.

jcgadfly wrote:
If we're ignorant, enlighten us as you were commanded to do in Mark 16:15. You know that contradicts Matthew 7:6  that you quoted earlier, right?

If taken out of context it seems to contradict. I guess you forgot why Jesus used parables didn't you? God sends strong delusion to the people that do not believe the truth and have pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

1. And you haven't defined God or shown that such a being actually exists so we're back to "This thing for which you can provide no evidence of its existence created the universe" which I maintain means exactly the same as "Nothing created the universe" until you can show that your God exists.

2. Your other problem is that you think that the Great Commission was a parable. My Christian teaching and study tells me it was Jesus' last command before his ascension. What makes that a parable in your eyes?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Vastet wrote:A DNA strand

Vastet wrote:
A DNA strand doesn't contain information, it is information. It contains processes. Interactions. It does not contain blue prints or hardware specifications or libraries or anything else that can be equated with the term information as it is commonly defined.

BS!! If you care to take the time to read.

http://www.trueorigin.org/dawkinfo.asp

http://radaractive.blogspot.com/2010/11/where-does-information-come-from-darwin.html

 

 

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


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Lee2216 wrote:Vastet wrote:A

Lee2216 wrote:

Vastet wrote:
A DNA strand doesn't contain information, it is information. It contains processes. Interactions. It does not contain blue prints or hardware specifications or libraries or anything else that can be equated with the term information as it is commonly defined.

BS!! If you care to take the time to read.

http://www.trueorigin.org/dawkinfo.asp

http://radaractive.blogspot.com/2010/11/where-does-information-come-from-darwin.html

 

 

Ah, the old "Evolution adds no information" canard. 

Nylonase. Thank you. Or are you saying that God cared more for this bacterium to give it this than for the poorly designed pinnacle of his creation?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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Quote:I didn't ask you to

Quote:
I didn't ask you to prove the existence of your parents. I was simply demonstrating a logical concept. You exist because of parents that created you which is analagous to the universe existing because God created it.

Now, here is where I shine the flashlight on you and you run(back peddle) under the sink like a cockroach.(not you being the cockroach, just you running away from your bad logic pretending it is not bad)

You, "Everything has a creator" Lets forget we've seen this dead argument a billion times I'll humor you.

Do you really want to cop to that bullshit argument? Really?

If your god created everything then it is ALSO responsible for cancer, ecoli, tsunami's, downs syndrome, ect ect ect. If god started everything then it cannot escape the responsibility of the bad it created too.

In addition,

You know damned well if a Muslim were using this same argument you would not simply say "Allah created everything so therefor Allah is the one true god".

Here is the other reason your argument is utter bullshit.

The ancient polytheists thought that Neptune controlled the oceans but yet you don't claim that Neptune created Hurricanes. You know damned well that hurricanes were NOT created by a cognitive being. You know that a hurricane is merely a result of non cognitive conditions in the atmosphere.

Your problem, and the problem with all believers of all labels is that you assume a WHO in as the cause when nature, like a hurricane, SHOWS us that all it takes is a process, not thought. The universe is no different. Evolution is no different. A who is not needed to explain anything, otherwise Neptune is real and makes hurricanes. Since you know that Neptune is not needed to make hurricanes take it one step further and accept that your pet god claim is not required to explain anything either.

A WHO is not needed as a cause to nature or the universe. Especially a claim that defies scientific logic that tells us cognition is only found in biological evolution.

Otherwise your super hero also created all the nasty stuff on this planet and in the universe as well. Since I know you won't cop to that I'd suggest you throw this argument in the trash can.

 

 

 

 

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Vastet
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Lee2216 wrote:Vastet wrote:A

Lee2216 wrote:

Vastet wrote:
A DNA strand doesn't contain information, it is information. It contains processes. Interactions. It does not contain blue prints or hardware specifications or libraries or anything else that can be equated with the term information as it is commonly defined.

BS!! If you care to take the time to read.

http://www.trueorigin.org/dawkinfo.asp

http://radaractive.blogspot.com/2010/11/where-does-information-come-from-darwin.html

 

 

It's not bs, which is the reason that argument is invalid.
You want to throw links around, this one refutes every single claim yours makes:

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.