Bama for President?

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Bama for President?

 I know there are plenty of people on here who voted for Bama last time around. I consider most of you on here to be fairly intelligent and more informed than your average voter so I have a few questions. I don't intend to get in a debate here, just looking for some honest opinions because I am curious.

 

First, are you satisfied with Obama's job so far? What areas do you think he has done well in? What areas do you find lacking? Why?

 

Are you inclined to support Obama in the next election?

 

Would you seriously consider voting 3rd party?

 

If Obama faced a legitimate primary contender would you be more favorable towards him or the challenger assuming they had similar stands on the major issues?

 

Are there any particular democrats you would like to see challenge him?

 

Do you think Obama could do more to repair the economy? How much blame does he hold for our current economic conditions?

 

Do you support Obama's foreign policy? Why or why not?

 

Has Obama been an effective leader of the democrat party? What if anything would you like to see him do differently?

 

 

 

I just usually go with my own taste. If I like something, and it happens to be against the law, well, then I might have a problem.- Hunter S. Thompson


Vastet
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Though not qualified to

Though not qualified to participate in the election, obviously, I still have some views on the matter.
I'm not particularly satisfied with Obama. He's given too much ground on too many issues. It's possible that he could have been great under other circumstances, but he's let the ball drop too many times to be an effective leader in today's world.
That said, I can't think of a single active and eligible politician that I would have more confidence in at this time. Too bad Weiner suicided his career. He had some real balls (I couldn't come up with a way to not pun there).

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Vastet wrote:That said, I

Vastet wrote:
That said, I can't think of a single active and eligible politician that I would have more confidence in at this time.

I think you've summed up America's dilemma in a nutshell.

We spend all our time trying to figure out which candidate isn't going to screw everything up as bad as the other candidate.

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????

Beyond Saving wrote:

 I know there are plenty of people on here who voted for Bama last time around. I consider most of you on here to be fairly intelligent and more informed than your average voter so I have a few questions. I don't intend to get in a debate here, just looking for some honest opinions because I am curious.

 

First, are you satisfied with Obama's job so far? What areas do you think he has done well in? What areas do you find lacking? Why?

 

Are you inclined to support Obama in the next election?

 

Would you seriously consider voting 3rd party?

 

If Obama faced a legitimate primary contender would you be more favorable towards him or the challenger assuming they had similar stands on the major issues?

 

Are there any particular democrats you would like to see challenge him?

 

Do you think Obama could do more to repair the economy? How much blame does he hold for our current economic conditions?

 

Do you support Obama's foreign policy? Why or why not?

 

Has Obama been an effective leader of the democrat party? What if anything would you like to see him do differently?

 

 

 

 

 

 

                             I grew up in the U.S.of A., eh?   New England Yankees are the least likely of peoples to change their birthright [citizenship]. I'm a New England YANKEEE;   Yet my birthright is CANADIAN,,eh?

 

 

                               1)  Not satisfied  with Obama  or his leadership.

 

 

                               2)  I  would support Obama in the next election;  only because the Rep. candidates scare the crap out me.      "Better the devil you know then the one you don't.

 

 

                               3) NO!!!!!!    Here  in Canada  the 3rd party is viable;  and worth the effort:  if only to supply a vocal opposition in parliment to the governing party.  In the U.S. of A.   it  IS a waste of time.

 

 

                                4)   A democrate  who runs against Obama would be called  "disloyal";    if he won  ANY primaries,  it  could only deflate the eventual winner   and weaken the democrates, i.e. 'vote someone else'  QUICK!!!!!!!!

 

 

                                 5)  Yes!!!!! but if they run against an INCUMBANT   they ain'tta  gonna winnah; [I'm a damn Yankee]

 

 

                                6)   YES!!!!!!!!!!    Ignor the republicans, and think rationaly.   (It's why I joined  the rational response squad and not the atheist response squad.)

 

 

                                 7)   I'm   wishy-washy on foreign policy, since I never respond to such things in the forums.  Obama is STUCK  with  2 wars and HOW TO pay for them BEFORE he took office!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   I think he IS doing well considering how FEW options he has under the circumstances.

 

 

                                  8)  Effective leader;    NO!!!!!!!!!  he should ignor  compromise {the republicans have shown no interest in it} and LEAD,   He IS  the commander-in-cheif,  he should act like IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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p { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }

p { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }

Well, I am a tea party guy, so obviously I don't much care for him. Even so, I will provide some comments.

 

Foreign policy. Don't make me laugh. On of the major points of his presidency was that both wars would be over a couple of years ago. Today, we have seen a troop surge far larger that what W. did. It has not helped anywhere near as much as the original plan. That and we are in a third war but one that by design is going nowhere.

 

Would I vote third party? Well, I did in '92 and '96. That turned out to be nothing past a vote of no confidence. Billy boy went ahead and did what he felt like, including an undeclared war in eastern Europe. That and an economic bubble, the effect of which led to the housing bubble.

 

What would I do if he had a decent primary contender? Matters not as I can only vote in the republican primary. It could get interesting if the dems actually field a decent candidate though. But only because the republicans don't seem to have their act together.

 

Romney wears magical underwear.

 

Huckabee is a preacher.

 

Palin makes W. seen smart.

 

McCain would probably do best to stay out this time. If he does jump in, well he will still be a rino.

 

In all honesty, my favorite would be Bobby Jindal but he has not made any noises yet. When our primary comes around, I think the smart money is on Newt. A Gingrich/Jindal ticket has the potential for 16 years of sane government.

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My take

OK I will answer these in short order obviously these questions require more than a short answer but I do not feel like typing all day.

Am I satisfied with Obama's job so far? Well yes and no. Obviously he could have done more about jobs and the economy but he has given up to much to the GOP he needs to be a stronger president and not so much of a bystander or cheerleader. He needs to drive harder and be more vocal on the things that need to be done such as an infrastructure package. Much Much more to what I think about this. All in all I think he has done an acceptable job giving the political climate we are in now.

I will absolutely support Obama in the next election I am a big part of the fund raising team for out PAC fund.

Well the problem with voting for a 3rd party is there is no legitimate 3rd party. I would absolutely vote for a labor party if it existed and many of us would like to see a strong labor party but voting for a labor party would split the vote for the democrats and hand the election to the republicans under our current election rules.

Unless the challenger had very strong labor position I likely would not support them.

Same as above there are really no strong democrats to challenge Obama. Honestly I would love to see Dick Durbin as a contender but that will not happen so the answer is no one. 

Economy wise I think the stimulus could have been much better handled. I think it was an excellent idea just poorly executed and overseen. It should have only been for infrastructure projects. There are so many roads, bridges, sewers, and other construction projects that are in dire need in this country. Also the electrical grid is in dire shape. Obviously there is alot more on my mind in this area but I will leave it at this.

Foreign policy - Not going to really go there as this is not an area I follow other than trade agreements and the likes.

As for being a leader of the democratic party I really never saw him as the leader of the party. He is too weak on issues that are important to alot of us (FYI I am a Union laborer and I am union strong and union proud). Like most politicians that get into the presidency they tend to move more to the center as it is to position were they can get the most independents and moderates.

 

I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you.

You see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb.


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All right, here's my

All right, here's my half-informed overseas rant on how strong is here the hate of American government, and that's a middle of Europe, more south it gets worse.

Obama is a weak president. All his cabinet is Wall Street lobby, who basically paid for all his publicity. He paid them back, by pumping tons of money into their dead "banking", which is basically a huge money-forging industry. Maybe that's what he has to do, to keep his family safe. 

But please, don't call this repairing economy. The only thing that can repair American economy by now is renouncing dollar and creating a whole new currency. Controlled by state, not private group of bankers, this time.
As for the economy itself, every nation that is not braindead is at this very moment extremely defensive. For example, German or Swiss businessmen accept only German materials and offers. They refuse 100% of all foreign offers, no matter how many times cheaper. In Britain, the Queen advises to buy the local product to support the farmers, for example and everyone's buying it, unless they're really poor. So it is in Spain, people listen to the king and don't care what the parliament says. If the king says riot, they riot. This is real leadership and patriotism. 

Are there still troops in Iraq? Something tells me, that they are, only about 40,000 or so, compared to the million before. Hopefully they'll be out by December as promised and leaving behind more than just nicely working oil pumps. Better late than never, eh, Barrack? Do that and hope that the Chinese will not want their money back so soon.

And who still keeps protecting Israel's ass from serious whipping by United Nations?
I know they wrote the American bestseller, but they're Jewish people, not stray puppies, FFS. 

Who's the best replacement? My nostalgy can't decide between Al Gore and John Kerry, but I doubt they're still in the business. 

But dear Americans, don't let it repeat the farce that the last three elections were. No electronic vote machine tampering, no court machinations and no deus ex Wall Street. In proper medieval would-be states they actually pull vagons into the country, full of money, good food and booze, to bribe people to vote for this or that candidate. That's how the real elections are done.

I wonder what kind of president Obama would be, if he would actually get to pick his own cabinet or have any actual power and no wife and daughter to fear for. That dream might come closer to true, if the current protests on Wall Street succeed in catching a number of bankers or stock market gamblers and decorating them in tar and feathers.
 

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.

There is no credible alternative in either party that is better than Obama.

Rick Perry is a crazy theocrat

Quote:
“As a Christian I have a clear directive to support Israel, from my perspective its pretty easy both as an American and a Christian. I am going to stand with Israel.”

This is as bad as when Bush claimed he was on a mission from god to conquer Iraq.

He would bring his religion into US foreign policy. Most all the other candidates have uttered the same treason in the name of religion.

 

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

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Answers in Gene Simmons

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

p { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }

Well, I am a tea party guy, so obviously I don't much care for him. Even so, I will provide some comments.

 

Interesting.

So would you agree with the  guys in the audience of the Tea Party Republican debate when Ron Paul was asked should a guy just be left to die who didn't get health care and they yelled 'YES'?

(The party that started because of fear of obama death panels and now....)

 

 

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

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Yes, I will vote for

Yes, I will vote for Obama.  No, I'm not interested in 3rd party candidates.  No, I am not interested in another democratic candidate.  It just doesn't work that way.  As someone else pointed out, another dem would just make it worse.  There isn't a republican candidate who has 2 brain cells to rub together as near as I can tell.  Including Newt.

Could Obama do a better job?  Hard to say.  I'm not there, I don't have an inside source. 

The wars - well, yeah, it is going to take a while to pull everyone out safely.  Do we really want another scramble like Saigon?  It was obvious he was going to have to listen to his generals even before he took the oath of office.

What is this that people expect an elected official to waltz in and turn it all upside down?  Wishful thinking.

The economy.  I have no idea how to fix the mess made by the last 30 years, starting with Reagan and "tinkle" down economics.  And now that the economy is in an even deeper hole, I don't have much hope for a short turn around.  I'm thinking it will be another decade before the US is sort of on its feet - and it may be another country that is the world power by then.  Not all empires last forever.

Increase interest rates so the banks can make some money loaning money.  Inflation?  Just what do you think we have going now?  You been to the grocery store lately?  I just got notice my garbage pickup cost is increasing.  The car insurance goes up every year even though we have no tickets or accidents on our records.  Yes, it is "stagflation" - welcome to the real world.  A repeat of the 70s.  (I realize there are many of you who don't remember, but I do and it was remarkably similar to what is going on now.)

Fully fund government agencies - what, you think all those people aren't paying mortgages, buying cars and large household appliances, going on vacations, paying insurance (health, car, home, life) premiums?  What millionaire is going to buy 2 million HDTVs?  But keep all those people employed, and it won't be difficult to find that many buyers.  You think having all those government workers losing their homes and declaring bankruptcy is going to help the economy?

If you can get just one sector of the economy on track with people buying as well as saving - guess what, you have other sectors coming on line as demand creates jobs.  It is easiest for the government to influence government jobs.  It is way harder to influence the private sector.

And a chunk of the national debt is the money held in reserve for stimulus spending that was never paid out.  Pull that money back into the general fund, and life won't seem as bad as people seem to believe it is.

And for pete's sake, get real on taxes.  During WWII, people in the highest bracket paid 90% to support the war effort.  We are at war.  Why did we lower taxes?

 

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All right, here's my

Luminon wrote:
All right, here's my half-informed overseas rant on how strong is here the hate of American government, and that's a middle of Europe, more south it gets worse.

Obama is a weak president. All his cabinet is Wall Street lobby, who basically paid for all his publicity. He paid them back, by pumping tons of money into their dead "banking", which is basically a huge money-forging industry. Maybe that's what he has to do, to keep his family safe. 

But please, don't call this repairing economy. The only thing that can repair American economy by now is renouncing dollar and creating a whole new currency. Controlled by state, not private group of bankers, this time.

We're on equal ground here, Lum, cause "politics" I.E. arguing with the retard at the other desk that is currently calling you a retard exhausts me.  Alright, you guys go.   I'll peak in every once in a while but I'm pretty sure it's going to be ugly no matter what.


Luminon wrote:

As for the economy itself, every nation that is not braindead is at this very moment extremely defensive. For example, German or Swiss businessmen accept only German materials and offers. They refuse 100% of all foreign offers, no matter how many times cheaper. In Britain, the Queen advises to buy the local product to support the farmers, for example and everyone's buying it, unless they're really poor. So it is in Spain, people listen to the king and don't care what the parliament says. If the king says riot, they riot. This is real leadership and patriotism. 

It's been a few years, are you Canadian?   I have that lingering thought about you, or are you some type of Euro person?   Belgium?

Kings and queens?   Us...let my mouth utter the word...us Americans, referred by Euros as..."Yanks" I'm a southern person and we use the term "Yankee" in a very degatory way, we've branched off slightly.

In Southern America it's "Those Rich Bastards" or something similar.   We don't care about birthrights but about what they did to get filthy rich even if their parents were dirt poor.  We don't consider them rich peasants.   They become noblility with the accumulation of wealth five minutes after they get it.

Luminon wrote:
Are there still troops in Iraq? Something tells me, that they are, only about 40,000 or so, compared to the million before. Hopefully they'll be out by December as promised and leaving behind more than just nicely working oil pumps. Better late than never, eh, Barrack? Do that and hope that the Chinese will not want their money back so soon.

I agree in a small way.  However, are you aware of the fact that Americans are in possession of more than twice as much of the USA's national debt than all of China?  It's really true.  I was shocked because all we hear is that China is the "number one FOREIGN owner of the USA's debt".

Luminon wrote:
And who still keeps protecting Israel's ass from serious whipping by United Nations?

The people that protect Israel's ass from a serious whipping from the Islamists are those that realize Israel is the only hint of a western, free democracy in the Middle East.   And to sit back an tolerate any Muslims to slaughter a people that agree with everything that America is fundamentally based on is equivalent to cutting our own throat.

I'm sure all the PETA pussies, well the same mentality type of people,  would applaud Israel's destruction.

If you are an American, or a Western European, or a Christian, or an Atheist, you are fucking yourself by NOT supporting Israel.  Islam is a religion of peace?

Bullshit.  They are a violent ideology commanded to wait when weak, to feign tolerance until they have enough power to take over by force.  Their "religion" tells them to do this.

Look this up.

Everyone throws out both violent and tolerant verses from the Koran.

Now us Westerners are used to conflicting verses in the bible.  So we consider this just the same old hat.\

Do you know what makes Islam different than Christianity?

And check me on this.   Call me out.

Abrogation.

Not only Abrogation but the fact that the Koran, Quran, whatever, is not organized in chronological order.

The "Koran" clearly states that if an earlier verse says say, "Love your neighbor" but a later verse says, "Chop your fucking neighbor's head off", this is NOT a contradiction.

This is an "Abrogation".  The old rules don't apply.  They are superceded by the new verse.

And it's all confusing to us, because the Quran isn't in chronological order.  So if you read it in an unabridged version you're confused and chalk it up to a normal religion.

Islam isn't like that.

A Christian that bombs an Abortion Clinic is an abheration (sp?).   A "peaceful" or "non-violent" or "non-radical" muslim is a BAD muslim.  Or ignorant of their own reiligion.

The goal of Islam is to make the entire planet Islam.  Not through peaceful means, but by force.   Act tolerant when weak, you are allowed to lie to the infidels, then, when you have the power, take over violently and kill or subjugate those not muslim.

If you think I'm being paranoid I will fully research any points any of you would like me to investigate.

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Beyond Saving wrote:Would

Beyond Saving wrote:
Would you seriously consider voting 3rd party?

Obama has majorly fucked up since the first moment he compromised with the nutbars. Which was basically Day 1.

Okay, basically, a hugely disappointed Obama-campaign fan. Great campaign. Fucking shitty presidency, fucker.

If only the majority of Democrat-leaning voters did this:

  • All the way up to the final days before the election, everyone swears an oath NOT to say they would vote for Obama, if they are ever surveyed/polled by any agency/group.
  • Instead, each person should pick an alternative candidate (other Democrat or a third part candidate) who truly best-represents their interests, and always respond to polls with this alternative
  • If no viable *actual* alternative makes it to the final round, then on election day, everyone votes for the lesser evil, Obama.

Reason: A coordinated action like this would set off massive alarm bells in the Democratic campaign. There needs to be a strong signal to Obama that he's got to shape up or ship out. If some no-name alternative suddenly starts making waves, or if there is simply a surprising lack of support for his campaign, then maybe, just MAYBE, he might wake the fuck up, grow some balls, and do some good in a second term. Who knows? At least it would be better than NOT sending a signal, and fakely 'supporting' his campaign of hypocrisy.

Bonus: In the long odds that an actual third party alternative rises out of nowhere and actually gets some visible support, who knows? Pigs could fly. It's worth a fucking shot, anyway. Like getting a lottery ticket for your birthday. I fucking HATE that! Just give me $2, man! At least I could buy a fucking bag of chips or something! But yeah, I'm going to fucking play the fucking lottery ticket, asshole. Might as fucking well!

 

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First, are you satisfied

First, are you satisfied with Obama's job so far? What areas do you think he has done well in? What areas do you find lacking? Why?

I'm not happy with his performance overall. With the exception of DADT repeal he  has not achieved anything significant. He and the other Democrats squandered one of the largest political majorities in US history. He has continually allowed the Republicans to frame every debate in their own terms. Their incredibly fucking stupid terms.

 

Are you inclined to support Obama in the next election?

No. If the Republicans are going to get their way then they might as well be in charge. At least that way it won't feel so dirty.

 

Would you seriously consider voting 3rd party?

Yes.

 

If Obama faced a legitimate primary contender would you be more favorable towards him or the challenger assuming they had similar stands on the major issues?

It depends on the challenger. If it's another spineless wimp then I'll stay out of it.

 

Are there any particular democrats you would like to see challenge him?

Alan Grayson. He has balls. Huge brass balls. This country needs a leader that is willing to tell the Republicans straight to their face that their ideas are bad for the country and that unless they can put together a majority they will have to play ball. Obama just doesn't have the guts to do it.

 

Do you think Obama could do more to repair the economy? How much blame does he hold for our current economic conditions?

He could if he used the power of his office and the Senate majority to his benefit. The Republicans can't get anything out of the house without Democratic support.

The only responsibility he bears for the economy is that he hasn't been aggressive enough with economic stimulus. Bush and the Republicans and their conservative philosophies are still primarily responsible for this mess, and their continued obstruction has only made it worse.

 

Do you support Obama's foreign policy? Why or why not?

Eh.

 

Has Obama been an effective leader of the democrat party? What if anything would you like to see him do differently?

No. He needs to quit being such a pussy.

"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon

Nothing this hard should taste so beefy.


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Watcher wrote:It's been a

Watcher wrote:

It's been a few years, are you Canadian?   I have that lingering thought about you, or are you some type of Euro person?   Belgium?


Nope, Czech Republic, the land where everything is possible. The northernmost banana republic. As they sing in that song:
I change my name from Bill to Novak
and when we steal that small country away
then I return to my home Colorado
and tell everyone about the gold vein...

Yeah, and we loved America twice, after WW2 and second time after the revolution. The first time Commies stopped that love ideologically and the second time it was the consumerism and wars. And that radar for Polish missile silo base, which USA wanted to build in the Brdy mountains, despite of 70% of the nation being against that, which of course the politicians joyfully ignored.

Watcher wrote:
 Kings and queens?   Us...let my mouth utter the word...us Americans, referred by Euros as..."Yanks" I'm a southern person and we use the term "Yankee" in a very degatory way, we've branched off slightly.

In Southern America it's "Those Rich Bastards" or something similar.   We don't care about birthrights but about what they did to get filthy rich even if their parents were dirt poor.  We don't consider them rich peasants.   They become noblility with the accumulation of wealth five minutes after they get it.

Don't underestimate royal families. I've got this book written by Hans-Adam from Liechtenstein and looks like he's a genius. He has figured out how to manage the state so that it makes money AND takes care of the people AND nobody can steal the money. Furthermore, his monarchy doesn't take a single swiss franc of the government, he earns all the money on his own. 
European monarchy usually doesn't have any legal power, it is a cultural symbol of leadership and moral standard. That would be a very useful thing in my state, where everyone knows the politicians steal 20% of state budget every year and nobody has the guts to kick them out of the palace. (well, except of some protesters recently) That's what happens you take down communism peacefully, without executions or lynchings. Business mafia is already there, ready to appoint their own politicians.

Watcher wrote:
 I agree in a small way.  However, are you aware of the fact that Americans are in possession of more than twice as much of the USA's national debt than all of China?  It's really true.  I was shocked because all we hear is that China is the "number one FOREIGN owner of the USA's debt".
Do you want to say that China's loan for the Iraq adventure was relatively small to the debt USA already had? The debt owner is the Bank of America, I guess. Which is a private institution, at least the federal reserve is. 

Watcher wrote:
 
Luminon wrote:
And who still keeps protecting Israel's ass from serious whipping by United Nations?

The people that protect Israel's ass from a serious whipping from the Islamists are those that realize Israel is the only hint of a western, free democracy in the Middle East.   And to sit back an tolerate any Muslims to slaughter a people that agree with everything that America is fundamentally based on is equivalent to cutting our own throat.

If you think I'm being paranoid I will fully research any points any of you would like me to investigate.

Of course, the punishment of Israel was meant from the objective side of UN, by finally applying the dozens of sanctions that were vetoed before. It's not a good idea to let locals settle their problems with each other, as EXC suggested before. It tends to get really very disgusting, just like with Serbs and Albanians. 

It's the same problem as with EXC... There's all kind of bullshit in holy books. We don't read them as robots, we choose which passages to read and obey. If we feel good, we read the good passages. If we feel bad, we joyfully read about chopping off heads, pillaging and burning stuff. The trick is to make people feel good.  When they feel good, they start to behave in a whole different way. Men lose something of  their power to women and children. And women don't like guns. 
Israel is not a symbol of freedom either, it's full of rich bastards, poor protesters and a several awesome psytrance DJs. 

Instead, take the example of USA after WW2, specifically the Marshall plan. Did USA threaten Europe, estabilish a nuclearly-armed colony in there and persecuted the local inhabitants? Nope. USA gave out resources and generous loans. And it worked, there is today a good life standard and no extremists who would want to attack and destroy American citizens. And there was a hell a lot of extremism before, enough for two world wars. See? Works like a magic, well, a multi-generational magic. 
Israel, as it is today does more harm that good, it might protect us if you think so, (I can't imagine how) but it also keeps the hostility in there. Democracy? Are you kidding me? Today's democracy is just voting for the men lobbyists choose for us and keeping people running in monetary treadmill, which by the way, inflates endlessly. Even extremists know they can't afford that. There is another way and that is, join the protesters in Israel, New York, London, Spain, Iceland (already succeeded) and Prague, overthrow the governments and estabilish governments that are responsible to their people. If they do good, they stay in chairs. If they do bad, they fall from the chairs. If you have that, it doesn't matter how do you call it.

People can overthrow the oppression and organize themselves intelligently. The citizens of Iceland already proved that. Hopefully Egypt and the rest of the world will follow. Every new protests give me hope. 

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This horse I voted for got a

This horse I voted for got a slow start out of the gate after racing to the finish(getting ellected).

I wish he had not pussyfooted with rethuglicans from the get go. In that sense I think when he got to Washington, Washington changed him instead of him changing Washington.

But would I vote for a third party or another Dem if they ran against him. I will say this, if he doesn't start kicking ass like he is now finally hinting at, I would.

I've had enough of the past 30 years of lies that "If you just keep taxes low, they will make jobs". All I have fucking seen is jobs and factories go overseas and the ones they do create are crappy and people cant live off of. I have seen the cost of living go up, prices(ESPECIALLY IN THE PAST 5 YEARS) explode while wages stagnate and profits rise.

I will vote for ANYONE who is brave enough to do what MOST people want, RAISE TAXES ON THE RICH, and create policies that create a better standard of living FOR ALL and a lower pay gap. And the sad fact is that the rich SHOULD want TO pay higher wages and more taxes. If they would do that then the people that work for them would not need to be on the government dime. The less people have to depend on government, the less govenrment has to get invovled. AND the more people can buy the things that the rich sell.

 

But right now, BOTH parties seem more interested in staying in power than actually doing shit.

 

Obama has been a disappointment so far. But if he is all I've got next year against what the economic rapist right wants, it would simply amount to the same old "lesser of the two evils".

 

Rick Perry is a fucking lier and a con artist. He brags about balancing the Texas budget, but what he doesn't tell people is that HE DID THAT BY ACCEPTING A FEDERAL BAIL OUT.

IF he wins the nomination. I sincerely hope that the Democratic party nails him on this and every add campaign asks "Why is it ok for Republicans to accept money but not Dems"?

 

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cj wrote:Yes, I will vote

cj wrote:

Yes, I will vote for Obama.  No, I'm not interested in 3rd party candidates.  No, I am not interested in another democratic candidate.  It just doesn't work that way.  As someone else pointed out, another dem would just make it worse.  There isn't a republican candidate who has 2 brain cells to rub together as near as I can tell.  Including Newt.

Could Obama do a better job?  Hard to say.  I'm not there, I don't have an inside source. 

The wars - well, yeah, it is going to take a while to pull everyone out safely.  Do we really want another scramble like Saigon?  It was obvious he was going to have to listen to his generals even before he took the oath of office.

What is this that people expect an elected official to waltz in and turn it all upside down?  Wishful thinking.

The economy.  I have no idea how to fix the mess made by the last 30 years, starting with Reagan and "tinkle" down economics.  And now that the economy is in an even deeper hole, I don't have much hope for a short turn around.  I'm thinking it will be another decade before the US is sort of on its feet - and it may be another country that is the world power by then.  Not all empires last forever.

Increase interest rates so the banks can make some money loaning money.  Inflation?  Just what do you think we have going now?  You been to the grocery store lately?  I just got notice my garbage pickup cost is increasing.  The car insurance goes up every year even though we have no tickets or accidents on our records.  Yes, it is "stagflation" - welcome to the real world.  A repeat of the 70s.  (I realize there are many of you who don't remember, but I do and it was remarkably similar to what is going on now.)

Fully fund government agencies - what, you think all those people aren't paying mortgages, buying cars and large household appliances, going on vacations, paying insurance (health, car, home, life) premiums?  What millionaire is going to buy 2 million HDTVs?  But keep all those people employed, and it won't be difficult to find that many buyers.  You think having all those government workers losing their homes and declaring bankruptcy is going to help the economy?

If you can get just one sector of the economy on track with people buying as well as saving - guess what, you have other sectors coming on line as demand creates jobs.  It is easiest for the government to influence government jobs.  It is way harder to influence the private sector.

And a chunk of the national debt is the money held in reserve for stimulus spending that was never paid out.  Pull that money back into the general fund, and life won't seem as bad as people seem to believe it is.

And for pete's sake, get real on taxes.  During WWII, people in the highest bracket paid 90% to support the war effort.  We are at war.  Why did we lower taxes?

 

Here is what the corporate class are doing. We all go out to dinner, the rich order everything on the menue and throw scraps at the middle class and poor, and then bail out on the bill. It's a dine and dash.

 

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Luminon wrote:That's what

Luminon wrote:
That's what happens you take down communism peacefully, without executions or lynchings. Business mafia is already there, ready to appoint their own politicians.

Fuckin' A.

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Brian37 wrote:Here is what

Brian37 wrote:

Here is what the corporate class are doing. We all go out to dinner, the rich order everything on the menue and throw scraps at the middle class and poor, and then bail out on the bill. It's a dine and dash.

Fuckin' A.

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Luminon wrote:That's what

Luminon wrote:
That's what happens you take down communism peacefully, without executions or lynchings. Business mafia is already there, ready to appoint their own politicians.

Well, this misses the point too, and will lead people like Beyond to say something stupid like "So Communist Russia was a good thing?"

I think you need to clarify this, because I am damned sure glad that oppressive government failed.

How about this? Corruption is corruption, be it a monopoly of criminals or a monopoly of a government and the only cure is regulation and anti-monopoly laws

I no more value the former Soviet Union than I do our current corporate monopoly. I do value the free market, NOT in it's current state, which is a manipulated extraction market. But I would not want government run economy that merely gave Stalin and the Communist party a monopoly.

So please clarify that statement because someone might think yo support what Stalin set up. I don't.

 

 

 

 

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Luminon wrote:It's the same

Luminon wrote:

It's the same problem as with EXC... There's all kind of bullshit in holy books. We don't read them as robots, we choose which passages to read and obey. If we feel good, we read the good passages. If we feel bad, we joyfully read about chopping off heads, pillaging and burning stuff. The trick is to make people feel good.  When they feel good, they start to behave in a whole different way. Men lose something of  their power to women and children. And women don't like guns.

Islam is much more militant than the other Judeo-religions.  Islam is a special case.  Deviation is not tolerated.  Sharia way or the highway.

Luminon wrote:

Israel is not a symbol of freedom either, it's full of rich bastards, poor protesters and a several awesome psytrance DJs.

What do you think freedom is?  Equal distribution of the wealth?

Wat?

Luminon wrote:

Instead, take the example of USA after WW2, specifically the Marshall plan. Did USA threaten Europe, estabilish a nuclearly-armed colony in there and persecuted the local inhabitants? Nope. USA gave out resources and generous loans. And it worked, there is today a good life standard and no extremists who would want to attack and destroy American citizens. And there was a hell a lot of extremism before, enough for two world wars. See? Works like a magic, well, a multi-generational magic. 

You can't compare Europe to the Middle East.  Well you can.  I can compare a Hippo to an Aardvark.  Lots of extremely important differences there.

Luminon wrote:

Israel, as it is today does more harm that good, it might protect us if you think so, (I can't imagine how) but it also keeps the hostility in there.

If the Jihadists are attacking Israel they aren't shooting up my house.  Plus, if things really get bad and Israel is about to go down they'll nuke the living shit out of half the Muslim countries around them.

Go Israel!

Luminon wrote:

Democracy? Are you kidding me? Today's democracy is just voting for the men lobbyists choose for us and keeping people running in monetary treadmill, which by the way, inflates endlessly. Even extremists know they can't afford that. There is another way and that is, join the protesters in Israel, New York, London, Spain, Iceland (already succeeded) and Prague, overthrow the governments and estabilish governments that are responsible to their people. If they do good, they stay in chairs. If they do bad, they fall from the chairs. If you have that, it doesn't matter how do you call it.

We tried to to reinvent our government.  Oh.  Well us Southern states did.  Ended up killing about 620,000 Americans, destroying the South, and leaving us in abject poverty for a century.

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I read recently a new study

I read recently a new study that suggests the number of dead in the civil war may have been closer to 750,000. Sad

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Watcher wrote:Islam is much

Watcher wrote:

Islam is much more militant than the other Judeo-religions.  Islam is a special case.  Deviation is not tolerated.  Sharia way or the highway.

Sure, but it's the Muslims who must liberalize themselves, that can't be done from the outside by violence. This problem needs hell a lot of moral credit and diplomatic leverage and start to work on the very basic things, like social security for the people, etc. We may have different religions, but even Muslims need to eat, live in houses, get educated, have medical care and be secure. That much we can agree upon and start working from there.
Once Muslims soften out by reasonable living, it's a chance to support arts, sciences and diverse society. They need to be reminded, that hookahs, hasheesh and belly dancers were once also known in Islamic culture Smiling

Watcher wrote:
 What do you think freedom is?  Equal distribution of the wealth?
Wat?
If you mean wealth as material resources, yes, they must be distributed. Not equally but fairly, according to individual needs, not by the unfair criteria of money and speculation. If you mean money, there are many things necessary to decrease their exaggerated role in society and make them actually safe and useful for most of people.

For a start, I mean guaranteed three meals a day, a place to live in privacy, free schools, affordable doctors and no bullets flying around. That's the basic freedom from having to compete against greater forces with no chance to win. There is a lot to improve beyond that, but these go first.

Watcher wrote:
 You can't compare Europe to the Middle East.  Well you can.  I can compare a Hippo to an Aardvark.  Lots of extremely important differences there.
Not so much, we have the same basic needs, which I already mentioned. People tend to behave badly, if they don't have food, security, education, housing and health. After you give it to them, they become much more reasonable. But I don't like to see you painting horns and tails on Muslims or Jews. That's dehumanization and it's very dangerous.  Do you have to study psychology, to see that? 

These thoughts come to me easily, because I'm a dreamer, which is a deeper motivation than the intellectual curiosity. But this is also the reason why I'm learning on how people, money, laws and states work. And it's not that diffcult to do things right. People often do things wrong on purpose, to gain advantages over others, or they don't know any better.

Watcher wrote:
 If the Jihadists are attacking Israel they aren't shooting up my house.  Plus, if things really get bad and Israel is about to go down they'll nuke the living shit out of half the Muslim countries around them.

Go Israel!

And why do you think Jihadists attack, in the first place? They want their land back and they feel right for wanting it. And there are more ways to wage war, than by weapons. Western nation fight economically, poor Muslims by immigration and taking over European governments. Israel won't do anything about that, besides making it worse. Divide Israel, punish the leaders, get it to knees with international sanctions, cooperate with Muslim governments on economic and social restoration and see the positive changes. If Muslim leaders won't be willing to cooperate even on such a fair terms, then find some that will and support them. I don't say it will work for sure or immediately or without working out many details, but it's the only thing that can help.

And if Israel is actually willing to use nuclear weapons on anyone, it should be immediately invaded by international forces and all the leaders locked up and examined by a psychiatrist. 

Watcher wrote:
 We tried to to reinvent our government.  Oh.  Well us Southern states did.  Ended up killing about 620,000 Americans, destroying the South, and leaving us in abject poverty for a century.

That's what the inventions are for, it takes lots of experiments to make it work. Perhaps this time it would be wise to leave out slavery, include more education and start on smaller scale. Politics is the most important thing just after science, so where is the theory of designing and estabilishing a well-designed system? People think of the system as something that just happens to them, instead of a mechanism that needs to be designed to work. Estabilishing such a system is the question of working with public opinion, not only emotional hype but also educating the people and making them think. And blocking out of power those, who can't think no matter what.

Basically, look at this short video. Very wise words, very inspirative.  It's about crisis, the second half is about crisis and progress. It says why we do it, why should we find new ways of solving old problems. Because things change.

 

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Luminon wrote:Sure, but it's

Luminon wrote:

Sure, but it's the Muslims who must liberalize themselves, that can't be done from the outside by violence. This problem needs hell a lot of moral credit and diplomatic leverage and start to work on the very basic things, like social security for the people, etc. We may have different religions, but even Muslims need to eat, live in houses, get educated, have medical care and be secure. That much we can agree upon and start working from there.
Once Muslims soften out by reasonable living, it's a chance to support arts, sciences and diverse society. They need to be reminded, that hookahs, hasheesh and belly dancers were once also known in Islamic culture Smiling

You're an optimist.  I disagree with your plan.

Luminon wrote:
 If you mean wealth as material resources, yes, they must be distributed. Not equally but fairly, according to individual needs, not by the unfair criteria of money and speculation. If you mean money, there are many things necessary to decrease their exaggerated role in society and make them actually safe and useful for most of people.

For a start, I mean guaranteed three meals a day, a place to live in privacy, free schools, affordable doctors and no bullets flying around. That's the basic freedom from having to compete against greater forces with no chance to win. There is a lot to improve beyond that, but these go first.

I'm going to quote Brian37 here.  "COMMIE!  DIE COMMIE!  DIE!"

Luminon wrote:
Not so much, we have the same basic needs, which I already mentioned. People tend to behave badly, if they don't have food, security, education, housing and health. After you give it to them, they become much more reasonable. But I don't like to see you painting horns and tails on Muslims or Jews. That's dehumanization and it's very dangerous.  Do you have to study psychology, to see that? 

These thoughts come to me easily, because I'm a dreamer, which is a deeper motivation than the intellectual curiosity. But this is also the reason why I'm learning on how people, money, laws and states work. And it's not that diffcult to do things right. People often do things wrong on purpose, to gain advantages over others, or they don't know any better.

A Hippo and Aardvark are both vertebrates.  They both need oxygen, food, a place to sleep, a mate.  Hey go grab me that aardvark.  Oops.  Sorry about getting you killed.  Well you have to admit they're similar, right?

Luminon wrote:
And why do you think Jihadists attack, in the first place? They want their land back and they feel right for wanting it.

Please.  Palestine was a backwater armpit of a chunk of dirt sparsely populated with a nomadic people that never stayed in one location longer than a couple months before the Jews actually made it something worth fighting and dieing for.  The Palestinians are just violent, xenophobic assholes.

The Jews are the ones that populated it with trees and fields of crops.  And they bought their land legally from distant landlords who could give a shit less about that area.  Then the Palestinians start fighting them because they are xenophobe and see a people with industry and a plan.  Later on it becomes flooded with more Arabs trying to occupy the land before the Jews completely take over.

It was such a big joke watching the "Palestinian President" at the UN this week.  President?  He's just a leader of a bunch of terrorist thugs in a suit.

These Muslims lie.  They are masters of deceit and horror.  And they prey on others that fall for their illusions and treat them like they deserve some kind of respect or goodwill.

Luminon wrote:
If Muslim leaders won't be willing to cooperate even on such a fair terms, then find some that will and support them. I don't say it will work for sure or immediately or without working out many details, but it's the only thing that can help.

The Palestinians will ALWAYS, and I literally mean ALWAYS, refuse any agreement with Israel except for the jews to all march into the sea in a massive suicide.  Quote me on that.  It's all a big show.  They are trying to gather some kind of sympathy and international support for their terrorism.  Screw 'em.

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If ALL Palestinians felt

If ALL Palestinians felt that way things would be much worse than they are I think. I believe the Palestinians have a similar problem as America. The biggest assholes and scum bags get all the attention, while the average joe trying to get by is invisible in the background. I don't believe the moslem religion is inherrantly more violent than the christian one, I think it's just more primitive and unshackled by secularism. I've known good people who were moslems. They just haven't got the majority ignoring all the fire and brimstone in the quran like the average christian does today with the bible.

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Personally, I can't

Personally, I can't understand blanket statements like that. As much as I would cheer the end of Israeli aggression, I still don't believe every Israeli is a war monger. Let alone every jew like anony believes.

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Vastet wrote:I don't believe

Vastet wrote:
I don't believe the moslem religion is inherrantly more violent than the christian one, I think it's just more primitive and unshackled by secularism. I've known good people who were moslems. They just haven't got the majority ignoring all the fire and brimstone in the quran like the average christian does today with the bible.

Well just look at the central prophets of the religions, dude.  Jesus.  Love thy neighbor, turn the other cheek.  Mohammad.  Has sex with children, wears women clothing, kills people and then rapes their daughter next to the corpse.

I mean holy crap.

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Yeah but jesus is just a

Yeah but jesus is just a messenger. The god itself is a bit of a different story. Mass killings, threats of apocalypse, destroying "sinners", etc. I admit I've never read ANY of the "holy" books of a religion. The reason I have as much familiarity with the bible as I do is because it has disgustingly inundated Western society. I've read and heard plenty of bible passages without ever even opening a bible. And plenty of said passages were anything but peace loving.

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Vastet wrote:Yeah but jesus

Vastet wrote:
Yeah but jesus is just a messenger. The god itself is a bit of a different story. Mass killings, threats of apocalypse, destroying "sinners", etc. I admit I've never read ANY of the "holy" books of a religion. The reason I have as much familiarity with the bible as I do is because it has disgustingly inundated Western society. I've read and heard plenty of bible passages without ever even opening a bible. And plenty of said passages were anything but peace loving.

Same god for both Islam and Christianity.

The main difference is the mouthpiece for that Jewish god.  Jesus contradicted.   Muhammad expanded.

Don't get me wrong, I despise Christianity too.   And I'm very angry at it.   But if Islam starts taking over the world I'm nestling myself so tight between the Christian hordes that you won't even recognize me as having an issue with them any longer.

Christianity irks me.  Islam scares the living fuck out of me.

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Watcher wrote:The

Watcher wrote:

The Palestinians will ALWAYS, and I literally mean ALWAYS, refuse any agreement with Israel except for the jews to all march into the sea in a massive suicide.  Quote me on that.  It's all a big show.  They are trying to gather some kind of sympathy and international support for their terrorism.  Screw 'em.

Really? How fair offers do you think they received? Stuff like that?

Was Yasser Arafat foolish not to accept the peace plan proposed by former President Ehud Barak of Israel? 
No. It was not a fair or just plan. Barak claimed that the Palestinians were offered 90 per cent of the West Bank territories whereas, in fact, they were offered 42 per cent of the West Bank area plus Gaza. Even then the West Bank would be covered with Israeli settlements, each of which would be defended with an Israeli garrison. Roads connecting the settlements would therefore provide fast communication for the Israeli army, thereby cutting up the so-called Palestinian areas into pieces remote from each other. It was hailed as “most generous”, “perhaps too generous”, by the Israeli propaganda machine. In fact it was a travesty of justice.

 

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moslems might scare me more

moslems might scare me more if I thought they had a chance in hell of taking over, but I don't think they do. I think that if push comes to shove the christians will wipe the floor with them. Though I'd much rather see atheists knock them both down. So I'll be in the mountains growing an army while the christians and moslems rip each other apart. Sticking out tongue

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Luminon wrote: Really? How

Luminon wrote:

 Really? How fair offers do you think they received? Stuff like that?

Was Yasser Arafat foolish not to accept the peace plan proposed by former President Ehud Barak of Israel? 
No. It was not a fair or just plan. Barak claimed that the Palestinians were offered 90 per cent of the West Bank territories whereas, in fact, they were offered 42 per cent of the West Bank area plus Gaza. Even then the West Bank would be covered with Israeli settlements, each of which would be defended with an Israeli garrison. Roads connecting the settlements would therefore provide fast communication for the Israeli army, thereby cutting up the so-called Palestinian areas into pieces remote from each other. It was hailed as “most generous”, “perhaps too generous”, by the Israeli propaganda machine. In fact it was a travesty of justice.

Really?   Name one other time in humanity's history where an enemy attacked another people, the people who were attacked kicked their  enemies ass in self-defense and in the process took over some  of their land.  And then...

...the Israelites offered to give that land back to them as an agreement.

They just  offered to give it back.   To the...not only the aggressors, but the losers of a war the Muslims instigated.  Point out in history where any country just hands back the land they won in a war to the other losing country that started the war in the first place.

The winner is saying, "ok, here's your shit back even though you attacked us.  Let's have peace."

And how do they respond?

"Unacceptable!"

Fuck them.  God, what pricks.   They'll never peacefully coexist with any non-moslems.  The Jews destruction first, you're fucking next in their crosshairs.  You damn Euro-arabian.

They're coming for you next.

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And that's why I cheer when

And that's why I cheer when France starts banning Muslims taking over their country.   That's why I cheer.  Because I'm on the other side of the pond.   And when Europe falls to these Hitler adoring fucks maybe someone will wake up.  And realize you can't peacefully coexist with these people.

They refuse.   Their stipulations are plain.   "Die.  Go away."  There's no tolerance among them.

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You may want to consider the

You may want to consider the fact that holding territory against native will has destroyed more nations than any other activity, and that no nation has successfully subjected people to occupation over any significant period of time.
Palestine will have its freedom regardless of actions intended to prevent it. The harder they have to fight for it, the worse it will be for their detractors.

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I'd also like to point out

I'd also like to point out that hamas is against this. Why? Because it makes THEM liable to be dragged in front of a world court.

I think the fact that Israel, hamas, and the US want the same thing is ridiculously ironic.

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Vastet wrote:You may want to

Vastet wrote:
You may want to consider the fact that holding territory against native will has destroyed more nations than any other activity, and that no nation has successfully subjected people to occupation over any significant period of time.

They could kill off 99% of the "natives" and then put the survivors on reservations.  It's worked for America for the past two and a half centuries.

This isn't some distant country sending troops to squat on foreign soil.   Israel is the homeland for the Jews regardless of the arguments about who used to be there or who it belongs to.   That's where their country is now.   They aren't sending people off somewhere.

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Watcher wrote:Really?  

Watcher wrote:

Really?   Name one other time in humanity's history where an enemy attacked another people, the people who were attacked kicked their  enemies ass in self-defense and in the process took over some  of their land.  And then...

...the Israelites offered to give that land back to them as an agreement.

They just  offered to give it back.   To the...not only the aggressors, but the losers of a war the Muslims instigated.  Point out in history where any country just hands back the land they won in a war to the other losing country that started the war in the first place.

The winner is saying, "ok, here's your shit back even though you attacked us.  Let's have peace."

And how do they respond?

"Unacceptable!"

Of course it's unacceptable, it wasn't a fair offer. It was a trick to divide Palestinian territories. How are they gonna live, if they can't get from home to job or fields, orchards and so on, because there is a freakin' road full of soldiers in between? OSN would say, you already accepted the offer, now shut up. Nope, that wasn't going to happen. 

As for history, fuck it. We're supposed to be better than history. We've got this new culture, education and global communications, so what about doing something to show the difference? Historical fuck-ups are no excuse. We can't afford anything like that anyway, with weapons of today and tomorrow. We've got these nuclear power-plants and having them on the same planet with people willing to blow themselves up is scary. 
This can not be solved with violence. Both Jews and Palestinians must be kept alive and well somehow, otherwise this is not going to work. As it was in that old film, "there must be security for all, or no-one is secure." It is a question of survival on this planet. 

Watcher wrote:
 Fuck them.  God, what pricks.   They'll never peacefully coexist with any non-moslems.  The Jews destruction first, you're fucking next in their crosshairs.  You damn Euro-arabian.

They're coming for you next.

What defended us from Muslim invasion before the estabilishment of Israel? Nothing, they just didn't feel like invading. Neither they do now, except by numerous poor immigrants and that is not a military threat. 
As for destruction of Jews, that is never going to happen, with the kind of army they have. 

 

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Indeed Watcher, the Palestinians were not well regarded in the middle east before the emergence of Israel. Basically, sand niggers who live in the least useful scrap of dessert in the region. They had, through honest work, developed the region about as well as Africans.

 

Then too, as I constantly remind Nony, the fact of international law is that any scrap of land belongs to whomever won the last battle, not to the losers. That being said, they did not fight all that much for it. They kind of had the lion's share handed to them by the zombie League of Nations that was trying to establish that the UN was capable of useful activity.

 

I have a couple of thoughts on how the international community can actually fix this.

 

One: Bring Israel into NATO. Under the NATO treaty, an attack on any NATO nation is an attack on all NATO nations. The Turks will be extremely displeased because they will be the first responders when Hamas decides to wave their dicks.

 

It also brings Russia into the deal. When they had middle eastern terrorism, they sent a bunch of commandos in to take a school full of kids. Then they started mailing body parts home until they had a “diplomatic solution”.

 

 

Two, a Jeffersonian democracy. Include Gaza ant the west bank with the population number being half a million people. Then Gaza becomes one state and the west bank becomes three states. The rest of the country will be fourteen states with an average of 20% Arab population.

 

One nation, one capital. Play nice because you can't leave the sandbox and take your shovel with you.

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I'm not sure how easily

I'm not sure how easily Israel could join NATO. I'm also not entirely sure they'd want to. They are very prideful in standing on their own, and they might not take kindly to some of NATOs regulations.
On the other hand, sending NATO troops into the area would end in a far different situation than when the Israelis go in. NATO has the strongest and most capable combined military forces on Earth at its disposal. And that wouldn't even be the greatest advantage they had.
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Beyond Saving wrote: I know

Beyond Saving wrote:

 I know there are plenty of people on here who voted for Bama last time around. I consider most of you on here to be fairly intelligent and more informed than your average voter so I have a few questions. I don't intend to get in a debate here, just looking for some honest opinions because I am curious.

This ought to be good.

Beyond Saving wrote:

First, are you satisfied with Obama's job so far? What areas do you think he has done well in? What areas do you find lacking? Why?

Absolutely not satisfied. He has done well in the area of being a republican troyan horse paralyzing the democratic party. A complete corporatist sellout.

Beyond Saving wrote:

Are you inclined to support Obama in the next election?

No.

Beyond Saving wrote:

Would you seriously consider voting 3rd party?

Absolutely.

Beyond Saving wrote:

If Obama faced a legitimate primary contender would you be more favorable towards him or the challenger assuming they had similar stands on the major issues?

If they had similar stands, that would make the contender a corporatist swine. No, I would view both of them with disdain.

Beyond Saving wrote:

Are there any particular democrats you would like to see challenge him?

Senator Bernie Sanders, ex. senator Russ Feingold, Elizabeth Warren,... people like these are there, although few and far apart.

Beyond Saving wrote:

Do you think Obama could do more to repair the economy? How much blame does he hold for our current economic conditions?

Are you kidding me? Obama doesn't run the economy, banks do. Obama stepped to the side at annoguration.

He didn't create the conditions, but the people he appointed did. One look at his economic team is all you need to know about the direction of the 'administration'.

Beyond Saving wrote:

Do you support Obama's foreign policy? Why or why not?

Yes, mass murder of civilians by drones is awesome. Assassination of US citizens is great too. Continuation of general fascist policies world wide is exactly what people elected him to do. Are you kidding me? The man is a war criminal and should be tried together with most of the Bush administration.

Beyond Saving wrote:

Has Obama been an effective leader of the democrat party? What if anything would you like to see him do differently?

Yes, he has been brilliant. He should take a break from all the hard work and let an actual democrat lead for a bit. Get out of the way, Mr. Obama.

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Watcher wrote:And that's why

Watcher wrote:

And that's why I cheer when France starts banning Muslims taking over their country.   That's why I cheer.  Because I'm on the other side of the pond.   And when Europe falls to these Hitler adoring fucks maybe someone will wake up.  And realize you can't peacefully coexist with these people.

They refuse.   Their stipulations are plain.   "Die.  Go away."  There's no tolerance among them.

"these people"... Didn't know Hank Williams Jr was with us on the forum. I can't peacefully coexist with inbreds like you.

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There comes a time when you

There comes a time when you just have to accept that there is no one you can in good  conscience vote for. No matter who you vote for they are just going to dig the hole deeper. Not voting or purposfully spoiling your ballet becomes the only option avaliable.  Not that I am from America or anything.

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 Would I support Obama in

 Would I support Obama in the next election? Probably not.

Do I see any viable candidates who would actually help the country on the horizon? Definitely not.

Looks like I'm not voting this cycle...

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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jcgadfly wrote: Would I

jcgadfly wrote:

 Would I support Obama in the next election? Probably not.

Do I see any viable candidates who would actually help the country on the horizon? Definitely not.

Looks like I'm not voting this cycle...

I hate the fact that our politics has basically been reduced to "lesser of the two evils". But if you don't vote against the republicans, things will get far worse. At least with Obama there is a cracked door that can only open wider.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Brian37 wrote:jcgadfly

Brian37 wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

 Would I support Obama in the next election? Probably not.

Do I see any viable candidates who would actually help the country on the horizon? Definitely not.

Looks like I'm not voting this cycle...

I hate the fact that our politics has basically been reduced to "lesser of the two evils". But if you don't vote against the republicans, things will get far worse. At least with Obama there is a cracked door that can only open wider.

 

Or get slammed back in our faces unless we kick it in...

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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jcgadfly wrote:Brian37

jcgadfly wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

 Would I support Obama in the next election? Probably not.

Do I see any viable candidates who would actually help the country on the horizon? Definitely not.

Looks like I'm not voting this cycle...

I hate the fact that our politics has basically been reduced to "lesser of the two evils". But if you don't vote against the republicans, things will get far worse. At least with Obama there is a cracked door that can only open wider.

 


 

Or get slammed back in our faces unless we kick it in...

We need to kick it in. And the sad thing is that the fear mongers on the right dont even know that if we do, we would NOT end the free market.

What I do fear is even if we craw out of this recession, the middle and poor will simply get complacent and suffer another band aid bubble, and in 10-15 years we will just be dealing with another recession, higher pay gap and more poverty.

This is class warfare and I have no problem with that. The middle and poor in this country are getting screwed but we were not the ones who started this war, but we damned sure are going to finish it.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Brian37 wrote:jcgadfly

Brian37 wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

 Would I support Obama in the next election? Probably not.

Do I see any viable candidates who would actually help the country on the horizon? Definitely not.

Looks like I'm not voting this cycle...

I hate the fact that our politics has basically been reduced to "lesser of the two evils". But if you don't vote against the republicans, things will get far worse. At least with Obama there is a cracked door that can only open wider.

 

 

 

Or get slammed back in our faces unless we kick it in...

We need to kick it in. And the sad thing is that the fear mongers on the right dont even know that if we do, we would NOT end the free market.

What I do fear is even if we craw out of this recession, the middle and poor will simply get complacent and suffer another band aid bubble, and in 10-15 years we will just be dealing with another recession, higher pay gap and more poverty.

This is class warfare and I have no problem with that. The middle and poor in this country are getting screwed but we were not the ones who started this war, but we damned sure are going to finish it.

The solution then cannot be to vote for the lesser of two evils. Neither can it be to just not vote. Short of doing anything drastic the best thing is to just spoil your ballot on purpose. Any election where there is an unsually high number of spoiled ballots the validity of the election comes under question. Get Twenty percent of the population writing "none of the above" on the ballot and people have to start paying attention. America has a huge amount of people who do not vote 20% is not an unrealistic number when looking at people who cannot support either party. In an election like this where everyone is kind of going well I don't like obama but who else is there? I am certain with the right motivation the point can be gotten across to the powers that be.

Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
No animal shall wear clothes.
No animal shall sleep in a bed.
No animal shall drink alcohol.
No animal shall kill any other animal.
All animals are equal.


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Tapey wrote:Brian37

Tapey wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

 Would I support Obama in the next election? Probably not.

Do I see any viable candidates who would actually help the country on the horizon? Definitely not.

Looks like I'm not voting this cycle...

I hate the fact that our politics has basically been reduced to "lesser of the two evils". But if you don't vote against the republicans, things will get far worse. At least with Obama there is a cracked door that can only open wider.

 

 

 

Or get slammed back in our faces unless we kick it in...

We need to kick it in. And the sad thing is that the fear mongers on the right dont even know that if we do, we would NOT end the free market.

What I do fear is even if we craw out of this recession, the middle and poor will simply get complacent and suffer another band aid bubble, and in 10-15 years we will just be dealing with another recession, higher pay gap and more poverty.

This is class warfare and I have no problem with that. The middle and poor in this country are getting screwed but we were not the ones who started this war, but we damned sure are going to finish it.

The solution then cannot be to vote for the lesser of two evils. Neither can it be to just not vote. Short of doing anything drastic the best thing is to just spoil your ballot on purpose. Any election where there is an unsually high number of spoiled ballots the validity of the election comes under question. Get Twenty percent of the population writing "none of the above" on the ballot and people have to start paying attention. America has a huge amount of people who do not vote 20% is not an unrealistic number when looking at people who cannot support either party. In an election like this where everyone is kind of going well I don't like obama but who else is there? I am certain with the right motivation the point can be gotten across to the powers that be.

And I have been feeling helpless up until now. It sucks that it even got to this point. But take a good look republicans. We outnumber you. And the absurd thing is, if they hadn't been bent on ignoring the pay gap, this never would have gotten to this point.

I am less afraid now than I was. And the truth is, even if my my mindset wins(people who think like me), our freedom, and the free market will remain in tact, despite the bullshit the right sells. It will simply be corrected to the anti-monopoly position the founders intended.

It takes all classes for our market to work. No middle class or poor person I know wants that to end. We simply do not want to be priced out of survival.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Tapey
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Brian37 wrote:Tapey

Brian37 wrote:

Tapey wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

 Would I support Obama in the next election? Probably not.

Do I see any viable candidates who would actually help the country on the horizon? Definitely not.

Looks like I'm not voting this cycle...

I hate the fact that our politics has basically been reduced to "lesser of the two evils". But if you don't vote against the republicans, things will get far worse. At least with Obama there is a cracked door that can only open wider.

 

 

 

Or get slammed back in our faces unless we kick it in...

We need to kick it in. And the sad thing is that the fear mongers on the right dont even know that if we do, we would NOT end the free market.

What I do fear is even if we craw out of this recession, the middle and poor will simply get complacent and suffer another band aid bubble, and in 10-15 years we will just be dealing with another recession, higher pay gap and more poverty.

This is class warfare and I have no problem with that. The middle and poor in this country are getting screwed but we were not the ones who started this war, but we damned sure are going to finish it.

The solution then cannot be to vote for the lesser of two evils. Neither can it be to just not vote. Short of doing anything drastic the best thing is to just spoil your ballot on purpose. Any election where there is an unsually high number of spoiled ballots the validity of the election comes under question. Get Twenty percent of the population writing "none of the above" on the ballot and people have to start paying attention. America has a huge amount of people who do not vote 20% is not an unrealistic number when looking at people who cannot support either party. In an election like this where everyone is kind of going well I don't like obama but who else is there? I am certain with the right motivation the point can be gotten across to the powers that be.

And I have been feeling helpless up until now. It sucks that it even got to this point. But take a good look republicans. We outnumber you. And the absurd thing is, if they hadn't been bent on ignoring the pay gap, this never would have gotten to this point.

I am less afraid now than I was. And the truth is, even if my my mindset wins(people who think like me), our freedom, and the free market will remain in tact, despite the bullshit the right sells. It will simply be corrected to the anti-monopoly position the founders intended.

It takes all classes for our market to work. No middle class or poor person I know wants that to end. We simply do not want to be priced out of survival.

If you want to feel hopeless try moving countries, I know there is a lot of poverty In America but you still have it pretty good. Even in poverty. First World poverty Is Third world Luxery.

Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
No animal shall wear clothes.
No animal shall sleep in a bed.
No animal shall drink alcohol.
No animal shall kill any other animal.
All animals are equal.


Brian37
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Tapey wrote:Brian37

Tapey wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Tapey wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

 Would I support Obama in the next election? Probably not.

Do I see any viable candidates who would actually help the country on the horizon? Definitely not.

Looks like I'm not voting this cycle...

I hate the fact that our politics has basically been reduced to "lesser of the two evils". But if you don't vote against the republicans, things will get far worse. At least with Obama there is a cracked door that can only open wider.

 

 

 

Or get slammed back in our faces unless we kick it in...

We need to kick it in. And the sad thing is that the fear mongers on the right dont even know that if we do, we would NOT end the free market.

What I do fear is even if we craw out of this recession, the middle and poor will simply get complacent and suffer another band aid bubble, and in 10-15 years we will just be dealing with another recession, higher pay gap and more poverty.

This is class warfare and I have no problem with that. The middle and poor in this country are getting screwed but we were not the ones who started this war, but we damned sure are going to finish it.

The solution then cannot be to vote for the lesser of two evils. Neither can it be to just not vote. Short of doing anything drastic the best thing is to just spoil your ballot on purpose. Any election where there is an unsually high number of spoiled ballots the validity of the election comes under question. Get Twenty percent of the population writing "none of the above" on the ballot and people have to start paying attention. America has a huge amount of people who do not vote 20% is not an unrealistic number when looking at people who cannot support either party. In an election like this where everyone is kind of going well I don't like obama but who else is there? I am certain with the right motivation the point can be gotten across to the powers that be.

And I have been feeling helpless up until now. It sucks that it even got to this point. But take a good look republicans. We outnumber you. And the absurd thing is, if they hadn't been bent on ignoring the pay gap, this never would have gotten to this point.

I am less afraid now than I was. And the truth is, even if my my mindset wins(people who think like me), our freedom, and the free market will remain in tact, despite the bullshit the right sells. It will simply be corrected to the anti-monopoly position the founders intended.

It takes all classes for our market to work. No middle class or poor person I know wants that to end. We simply do not want to be priced out of survival.

If you want to feel hopeless try moving countries, I know there is a lot of poverty In America but you still have it pretty good. Even in poverty. First World poverty Is Third world Luxery.

So the solution is to lower our standards to third world standards?

Yes, a race to the bottom is the way to compete. Got it.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Tapey wrote:
If you want to feel hopeless try moving countries, I know there is a lot of poverty In America but you still have it pretty good. Even in poverty. First World poverty Is Third world Luxery.

I put a Christian in a quandary many years ago. He was claiming it was a virtue to help the poor. I said put me in charge of setting the poverty level and I can eliminate poverty with the stroke of a pen.

In the US the current poverty level is $24,000 for a family of four for which food stamps, Medicaid and all the rest are extras in fact estimated to be equal to an income nearly double that. Don't snicker before pricing total health insurance coverage for a growing family which includes both employer and employee contributions. Also consider the differences in income tax.

In most of the US no single person can live on $6000 a year but in those same places a single person can live a very comfortable life on $24,000 a year. It is all in the minimum costs contributors for living. Housing. A family of four needs at least two bedrooms. A single person can do find with an efficiency apartment. A smaller place and utility costs are lower. One person no kids means you are not running errands seven days a week so why have a car? Public transportation and cabs are always cheaper. But on only $6000 a year, $400 per month for housing is $4800 per year leaving not much for utilities. So it is real US poverty. Utilities in the 3rd world are a luxury.

Of course in the 3rd world you grow your own food. Who needs food stamps? All kinds of international agencies and NGOs drop by to provide all the health you can handle without screaming. And your expectations are so low this is all gravy. Your only real problem is malaria but Bill Gates is on it. Of course this all makes your population problems worse but who is counting?

On the other side the third world has so many things that the west thinks are important like organic food. Sarcasm ended.

There is a very practical problem to declaring poverty in real terms. In poetic terms is enjoins interest and sympathy. But when you start analyzing it you realize it is not what you thought it was.

Nothing can solve poverty because you cannot define it. When you try to define X years ago as Y dollars per year for a certain family size then X+1 years ago food stamps were added the definition does not change. It becomes the definition for qualifying for food stamps. I know how to do the math to deal with this kind of problem but it is not something you can explain to voters so it is not worth the effort. In common terms you have stick with dollar value instead of imputed worth.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

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