Recently saw Yoav Shamir's "Checkpoint"

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Recently saw Yoav Shamir's "Checkpoint"

Folks, the news is abuzz about the Palestinian Authority seeking statehood via the UN and it's high time. What I'm about to say is a 180 degree reversal of my previously held views. I am no supporter of Islamic fundamentalism anywhere but after seeing the movie "Checkpoint" my heart does bleed for the the Palestinians. Frankly, I couldn't care less if they are fundies who hate atheists, homosexuals, etc.. but I just could not bear watching Israeli soldiers herding Palestinians like cattle at various checkpoints. There were several scenes of the soldiers callously turning away families who desperately needed to cross to go to the emergency room. Two scenes literally brought tears to my eyes. One was of a pregnant Palestinian women suffering from uterine bleeding who was asked to go home. An ambulance arrived and was turned away. Another scene was a woman with her 3 children trying to cross the checkpoint. She did not have a proper "ID card" and was denied entry. She sent her small children (who don't require IDs) to cross on their own. The cries of the children would break any sane human being's heart. I don't care if this is all in the interest of Israeli "security". No human being deserves this kind of treatment. Those painful images bring to my mind the atrocities of Bosnia, Darfur, Rwanda and yes I'll say it--Nazi Germany!!

Is it any wonder that a few of those Palestinians will then fervently turn towards Allah and then strap grenades to their chests?


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I've never seen it, but I'll

I've never seen it, but I'll have to check it out. I've heard a lot of stories of what Israelis do to Palestenians.

 

Quote:

Is it any wonder that a few of those Palestinians will then fervently turn towards Allah and then strap grenades to their chests?

 

It's unlikely that anybody who goes through the checkpoints and is humiliated will become a suicide bomber, however others VIEWING people going through the checkpoint will become suicide bombers.

 

But that's why I think we need to take a serious look at the "solutions" for problems like terrorism. It's a self perpetrating cycle. When suicide bombings increase, they inact actions that actually increase them, which is why I am a staunch advocate of empirical research into the area.

 

 

 

 


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ragdish wrote:and yes I'll

ragdish wrote:
and yes I'll say it--Nazi Germany!!

Thank you. This is one of my biggest problems with Israel, their total blindness to hypocrisy.

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I haven't seen this, but

I haven't seen this, but doubt I could sit through it after some of the other documentaries and news stories I've seen coming from Palestine regarding their occupiers.

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I have no stake in this

I have no stake in this issue at all, in fact I'm quite ignorant of it other than the occasional news story, but considering the number of suicide bombers that Israel had to put up with over the years, its a wonder they allow any individuals to cross over.  

Also, if you don't have the proper ID card, you try crossing the "free" Canadian/US border.  You will see how concerned the people in charge of protecting the border are regarding your uterine bleeding.  

This whole thing is an issue due to more then religion, but I bet all the change in my left pocket, if these two peoples were discussing this from secular standpoint there may not even be an issue.  All the money and energy invested in religion can better be invested in building more hospitals for example.  

 

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I can get better and free

I can get better and free care here, so why the hell would I want to cross the border for crappy care that puts me in debt the rest of my life?

Palestine, on the other hand, as the occupee, depends on Israel for health care. What few hospitals they have get bombed constantly. So it becomes ridiculous for Israel to deny the health care and education they took responsibility for by occupying Palestine in the first place.
Clearly your admitted ignorance of the situation makes your opinions irrelevant to the discussion or reality.

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Vastet wrote:I can get

Vastet wrote:
I can get better and free care here, so why the hell would I want to cross the border for crappy care that puts me in debt the rest of my life? Palestine, on the other hand, as the occupee, depends on Israel for health care. What few hospitals they have get bombed constantly. So it becomes ridiculous for Israel to deny the health care and education they took responsibility for by occupying Palestine in the first place. Clearly your admitted ignorance of the situation makes your opinions irrelevant to the discussion or reality.

Them's fightin' werds! hehe. 

I've admitted ignorance of any true depth in the issue.  I am aware of what is going on superficially.  I was just trying to point out some logical inconsistencies in the appeal to emotion the movie has made.  I'm also a Canadian, and quite proud of it, my analogy was regarding crossing ANY border, let alone a near wartime checkpoint, without proper identification.  And yes, it is a shitty situation, I agree with you about most everything regarding that.  As for my opinion being irrelevant to reality... of course lol, I have never considered the parties involved looking for a resolution to the conflict on the RRS website.  As for it being irrelevant to the discussion, if it were, you would have ignored it Smiling  My opinion may be wrong, but it's obviously not irrelevant.

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Ktulu wrote:Also, if you

Ktulu wrote:
Also, if you don't have the proper ID card, you try crossing the "free" Canadian/US border.  You will see how concerned the people in charge of protecting the border are regarding your uterine bleeding. 

Whuh? I guarantee you they wouldn't fucking turn her away and prevent an ambulance from getting to her. I guarantee you they would CALL a fucking ambulance. Maybe with a police escort or something, but they wouldn't just fucking turn her away. WTF?!

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I stop ignoring irrelevance

I stop ignoring irrelevance when it seems to follow me. That doesn't mean it stops being irrelevant. Eye-wink

For my part, I've studied the situation in depth and followed it closely since Arafat was in charge. I won't ever say that Palestine is blameless in the conflict, but I can compare Palestine with Israel and crunch the numbers to see Israel has everything Palestine does not have (military, allies, funding, technology, healthcare, education, food, water, hell even status as a nation). I can also compare casualties between the two and find Palestine has the definite disadvantage in every single scenario.

There is no justification for the treatment they receive, and they will never stop fighting back until they are dead, Israel is gone, or they get treated as human beings with rights as promised by the UN to all people. The sooner people realise this, the better.

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natural wrote:Ktulu

natural wrote:

Ktulu wrote:
Also, if you don't have the proper ID card, you try crossing the "free" Canadian/US border.  You will see how concerned the people in charge of protecting the border are regarding your uterine bleeding. 

Whuh? I guarantee you they wouldn't fucking turn her away and prevent an ambulance from getting to her. I guarantee you they would CALL a fucking ambulance. Maybe with a police escort or something, but they wouldn't just fucking turn her away. WTF?!

 

Ok, I was going to ignore this thread moving forward, because as I've said, I have no stake or in depth knowledge on the subject.  I want to state my position so it is clear, I don't condone abuse of human rights or any other conflict, especially this conflict.  I believe that the Palestinians should be given back the majority of the land, and if a peaceful resolution is not possible, the post 1948 borders should be seriously considered.  It is a big turd sandwich and everyone is having a good ole bite of it.  

Now, @ natural, if you were at the border having a heart attack, they would definitely call an ambulance and give you a police escort.  If you claimed that you suffer from uterine bleeding, and save any other test (I doubt border guards would check for that) they would tell you to go back to whatever country you came from, Canada or US respectively.  If you don't trust me, go and test that theory, leave all your ID at home, and claim that you MUST cross the border because you pee blood.  Of course it is a heartbreaking fucking moment with a pregnant woman involved, but considering that there is a conflict, you can't just jump on emotional propaganda without considering some analogies. Would I have left her through? most likely, but I understand why some asshole wouldn't want to let her though.  That was my whole 

Vastet wrote:

 

I can get better and free care here, so why the hell would I want to cross the border for crappy care that puts me in debt the rest of my life?

Palestine, on the other hand, as the occupee, depends on Israel for health care. What few hospitals they have get bombed constantly. So it becomes ridiculous for Israel to deny the health care and education they took responsibility for by occupying Palestine in the first place.
Clearly your admitted ignorance of the situation makes your opinions irrelevant to the discussion or reality.

I'm going to be the better man here and not respond with the same tone. Smiling The definition of irrelevant is that it is not connected or applicable.  For example when you say that you can get "free care here" as an answer to my border policy objection, that's an IRRELEVANT point.  I would have otherwise ignored it except that it becomes relevant to point out the definition of the word Smiling  When I state an opinion that you disagree with, or plain WRONG, or even stupid, it is connected to the issue, and thus relevant, do you see the difference?  

As I have stated we argue from the same point of view regarding the conflict, I was trying to point out that emotional propaganda is just that... 

Why can't we all just get along?

Edit: fixed quote

 

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The definition of irrelevant

The definition of irrelevant is that it is not connected or applicable.

See bold, and then justify how what you said was applicable.

If you don't know what the situation is, then no opinion you have is applicable, so your opinion is IRRELEVANT.

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Vastet wrote: The definition

Vastet wrote:
The definition of irrelevant is that it is not connected or applicable. See bold, and then justify how what you said was applicable. If you don't know what the situation is, then no opinion you have is applicable, so your opinion is IRRELEVANT.

I'm going to let this one slide because I don't want to douchejack this thread with a pissing contest.  I will justify my reasoning for making any comment, and it's relevance, and will leave it at that.  The only reason I'm replying is so that I will not come across as defensive and pointless.  

I have read the OP as a comment on an emotional movie, he has even stated how his opinion on the subject was changed.  He had also gone on to list the reasons why his opinion has changed and they were all emotional scenarios.  My reason for commenting was not to change his opinion, or even claim it irrelevant, was to point out that there are two sides to every story.  Any emotionally charged evidence raises flags of propaganda in my view.  That's how it was connected. I also tied in the whole religion sux thing, and is at least in part to blame for the current shit storm...  all of those were relevant points, again, even if I were COMPLETELY wrong,  they were still on point, or connected, or addressing what the OP had said.  If I were to comment on the price of crude oil, or the growth on my left big toe, that would be irrelevant.  The points were "applicable" because they "addressed" the OP.

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So you assume it is an

So you assume it is an emotional movie, instead of finding out whether or not it actually is (many educational documentaries use emotion, which doesn't necessarily mean they are lies or propaganda), and you use that assumption to think your comments are relevant?

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Vastet wrote:So you assume

Vastet wrote:
So you assume it is an emotional movie, instead of finding out whether or not it actually is (many educational documentaries use emotion, which doesn't necessarily mean they are lies or propaganda), and you use that assumption to think your comments are relevant?

Your level of reading comprehension, makes this argument an exercise in futility.  I will concede that in spite of the definition of the word relevant, my comment was completely irrelevant and thus retract it.  Smiling happy now?

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No.

No.

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Ktulu wrote:natural

Ktulu wrote:

natural wrote:

Ktulu wrote:
Also, if you don't have the proper ID card, you try crossing the "free" Canadian/US border.  You will see how concerned the people in charge of protecting the border are regarding your uterine bleeding. 

Whuh? I guarantee you they wouldn't fucking turn her away and prevent an ambulance from getting to her. I guarantee you they would CALL a fucking ambulance. Maybe with a police escort or something, but they wouldn't just fucking turn her away. WTF?!

Now, @ natural, if you were at the border having a heart attack, they would definitely call an ambulance and give you a police escort.  If you claimed that you suffer from uterine bleeding, and save any other test (I doubt border guards would check for that) they would tell you to go back to whatever country you came from, Canada or US respectively.  If you don't trust me, go and test that theory, leave all your ID at home, and claim that you MUST cross the border because you pee blood.  Of course it is a heartbreaking fucking moment with a pregnant woman involved, but considering that there is a conflict, you can't just jump on emotional propaganda without considering some analogies. Would I have left her through? most likely, but I understand why some asshole wouldn't want to let her though.  That was my whole

First, I couldn't test that theory, because I'm not a pregnant woman. Second, notice I didn't say anything about letting her across the border. Just about not turning her away. I suppose that could sound like 'letting her through', but it is a difference. They would have had the option to have her wait at the border for an ambulance and/or police, and let the medics figure out what to do. There would have been lots of options. My point was that the US/Canada border would never (I desperately hope, anyway; it would seriously fuck my mind up if it did) just turn her away and prevent an ambulance from reaching her. That's just fucked up. That's treating her like she's a non-person. (Not to mention the baby, but I don't know enough about it to really go there.)

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Ktulu wrote:Vastet wrote:

Ktulu wrote:

Vastet wrote:
The definition of irrelevant is that it is not connected or applicable. See bold, and then justify how what you said was applicable. If you don't know what the situation is, then no opinion you have is applicable, so your opinion is IRRELEVANT.

I'm going to let this one slide because I don't want to douchejack this thread with a pissing contest.  I will justify my reasoning for making any comment, and it's relevance, and will leave it at that.  The only reason I'm replying is so that I will not come across as defensive and pointless.  

I have read the OP as a comment on an emotional movie, he has even stated how his opinion on the subject was changed.  He had also gone on to list the reasons why his opinion has changed and they were all emotional scenarios.  My reason for commenting was not to change his opinion, or even claim it irrelevant, was to point out that there are two sides to every story.  Any emotionally charged evidence raises flags of propaganda in my view.  That's how it was connected. I also tied in the whole religion sux thing, and is at least in part to blame for the current shit storm...  all of those were relevant points, again, even if I were COMPLETELY wrong,  they were still on point, or connected, or addressing what the OP had said.  If I were to comment on the price of crude oil, or the growth on my left big toe, that would be irrelevant.  The points were "applicable" because they "addressed" the OP.

I really think you should watch the film, Ktulu. If you think the flick is emotional propoganda then do you feel the same about Holocaust images? Although my OP was emotional, here's my objective take on it. The situation at the checkpoints is a classic example of the Stanford Experiment. Most sane Israelis and Palestinians are normal ordinary folks like you and me. But put them in the context of an occupation then at encouters such as the checkpoints, the Israeli wardens lose empathy in their treatment of the Palestinian prisoners. Even if both parties were atheist, the outcome at the checkpoints would be no different. And there are many atheist Israeli and Palestinians (some of whom I personally know) who would agree with me on this.


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ragdish wrote:

Folks, the news is abuzz about the Palestinian Authority seeking statehood via the UN and it's high time.

You say "via" which is not the case. The UN does not confer statehood. Never has. That is no place in its charter.

Palestine is already a state. More nations recognize Palestine than recognize Kosovo for example despite the fact the US recognizes Kosovo as a state. The count is 117 or so nations that already recognize Palestine. The US does not require UN membership prior to recognition of a state as a state, nor does any other state.

Becoming a member state of the UN or even an observing state is the objective as it would give Palestine unquestioned access to the UN created courts particularly the International Criminal Court. The key word is state.


===

BTW: If you want a real chuckle look for Danny Ayalon's three part Hasbara promo. Talk about lame script and zero production values ...

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

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Cpt_pineapple wrote:

...

It's unlikely that anybody who goes through the checkpoints and is humiliated will become a suicide bomber, however others VIEWING people going through the checkpoint will become suicide bombers.

How about the families of those who have died because their ambulance was held up at a checkpoint for hours? Might they become terrorists? How about the men and women whose infants have died at birth in ambulances because they were held up?

How about people who are just pissed at pimply-faced teenagers with guns ordering them around just for fun and putting the videos on Youtube?

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

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This is NOT about BORDER crossing

Ktulu wrote:
...

Now, @ natural, if you were at the border having a heart attack, they would definitely call an ambulance and give you a police escort.  If you claimed that you suffer from uterine bleeding, and save any other test (I doubt border guards would check for that) they would tell you to go back to whatever country you came from, Canada or US respectively.  If you don't trust me, go and test that theory, leave all your ID at home, and claim that you MUST cross the border because you pee blood.  Of course it is a heartbreaking fucking moment with a pregnant woman involved, but considering that there is a conflict, you can't just jump on emotional propaganda without considering some analogies. Would I have left her through? most likely, but I understand why some asshole wouldn't want to let her though.  That was my whole

There appears to be some serious confusion here. The subject is checkpoints NOT border crossings. These things all happen in the West Bank with the West Bank on both sides of the checkpoint. This is not about getting to hospitals in Israel. It is about getting to Palestinian hospitals in the West Bank.

These checkpoints are solely for the purpose of harassing and demeaning the Palestinians by the military dictators. They are intended to make normal life in the West Bank impossible.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

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ragdish wrote:
...

I really think you should watch the film, Ktulu. If you think the flick is emotional propoganda then do you feel the same about Holocaust images? Although my OP was emotional, here's my objective take on it. The situation at the checkpoints is a classic example of the Stanford Experiment. Most sane Israelis and Palestinians are normal ordinary folks like you and me. But put them in the context of an occupation then at encouters such as the checkpoints, the Israeli wardens lose empathy in their treatment of the Palestinian prisoners. Even if both parties were atheist, the outcome at the checkpoints would be no different. And there are many atheist Israeli and Palestinians (some of whom I personally know) who would agree with me on this.

One has to wonder if his was a deliberate attempt to defuse the issue by implying it was about crossing into Israel or if he really did not know it was about arbitrary checkpoints in the West Bank.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

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Ktulu wrote:
He had also gone on to list the reasons why his opinion has changed and they were all emotional scenarios.  My reason for commenting was not to change his opinion, or even claim it irrelevant, was to point out that there are two sides to every story.

Fair enough. Would you care to take the time to explain the other side of this jewish military dictatorship Israel runs in the West Bank? Or is it not military? Or is it not jewish? Or did the Palestinians elect the Jews to rule them? Is there something you know about it that no one else knows?

Where is it written only the Palestinians have no right to resist a military dictatorship? Why should they not kill of the foreigners? Did not the Poles and the French do the same in WWII? Should they also be condemned?

Get your frigging civilians back in Israel where they belong.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

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You're twisting yourself up.

You're twisting yourself up. You don't recognise Israel as a legitimate state, yet you want the colonists to return to it. Pick one, you can't have both.

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Vastet wrote:
You're twisting yourself up. You don't recognise Israel as a legitimate state, yet you want the colonists to return to it. Pick one, you can't have both.

Cititzenship remains what it is. Now about the rest...

Fair enough. Would you care to take the time to explain the other side of this jewish military dictatorship Israel runs in the West Bank? Or is it not military? Or is it not jewish? Or did the Palestinians elect the Jews to rule them? Is there something you know about it that no one else knows?

Where is it written only the Palestinians have no right to resist a military dictatorship? Why should they not kill of the foreigners? Did not the Poles and the French do the same in WWII? Should they also be condemned?

 

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

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www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Lobbing strawmen and

Lobbing strawmen and irrelevant questions at me doesn't repair your irreconcilable mental division. If you would have Israel be destroyed, you can't simultaneously demand Israeli colonists return to Israel.
Unless perhaps you're planning a second holocaust. Cause the first one, and other attempts to violently remove a religion from existence, worked so well. /sarcasm

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Vastet wrote:
Lobbing strawmen and irrelevant questions at me doesn't repair your irreconcilable mental division. If you would have Israel be destroyed, you can't simultaneously demand Israeli colonists return to Israel. Unless perhaps you're planning a second holocaust. Cause the first one, and other attempts to violently remove a religion from existence, worked so well. /sarcasm

If Palestine can be destroyed, wiped off the map, exterminated, without harm after 2500 years I do not see a problem with getting rid of a shitty little country filled with religious fruitcakes after less than 70. If you do, please explain exactly what that problem is.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

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www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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I don't agree with

I don't agree with destruction when rehabilitation is an option. And screwing the guy who screwed you just makes the guy screw you harder, vengeance isn't a solution.

I'd send the UN into the entire middle east, conquer the entire region (Israel included), and start moving people out. After all the people willing to leave left, I'd carpet bomb the area with nukes to render it uninhabitable for millenia. By the time the radiation dissipates the former residents descendants will have ended their now pointless war, and the absence of a holy land would drive all three of the abrahamic religions into sharp decline.

Sometimes when children fight over a toy, you have to break the toy.

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Vastet wrote:
I don't agree with destruction when rehabilitation is an option. And screwing the guy who screwed you just makes the guy screw you harder, vengeance isn't a solution. I'd send the UN into the entire middle east, conquer the entire region (Israel included), and start moving people out. After all the people willing to leave left, I'd carpet bomb the area with nukes to render it uninhabitable for millenia. By the time the radiation dissipates the former residents descendants will have ended their now pointless war, and the absence of a holy land would drive all three of the abrahamic religions into sharp decline. Sometimes when children fight over a toy, you have to break the toy.

If you wish to be taken seriously, if you expect to have an exchange of ideas, you should express ideas instead of feigned frustration in the form of a proposal.

We have all seen the "the absurd cannot be done therefore Israel can keep what it stole" before. We have also seen it in the form of "the situation is impossible so maintain the status quo,"

It is not even clever. The Jews are not absolved of their crimes while the crimes are still in progress.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


Vastet
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If you wish to have a

If you wish to have a serious conversation, and be taken seriously, you won't make snide digs that weren't provoked, or presume things aren't serious when they are. I was completely serious. Give me an army and I'll do it tomorrow.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


A_Nony_Mouse
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Vastet wrote:
If you wish to have a serious conversation, and be taken seriously, you won't make snide digs that weren't provoked, or presume things aren't serious when they are. I was completely serious. Give me an army and I'll do it tomorrow.

Which is interesting but you are still NOT telling me why Judaism should be treated differently from any other religion nor its members differently from the members of any other religion.

Please tell me why.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


Vastet
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It shouldn't. You think I'm

It shouldn't. You think I'm not including Israel in my solution? I'd START with Israel.

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A_Nony_Mouse
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Vastet wrote:
It shouldn't. You think I'm not including Israel in my solution? I'd START with Israel.

If neither Jews nor Israel is what you see as an example of what you call my bigotry, just what is?

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


Vastet
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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:Vastet

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Vastet wrote:
It shouldn't. You think I'm not including Israel in my solution? I'd START with Israel.

If neither Jews nor Israel is what you see as an example of what you call my bigotry, just what is?

Excuse me? You aren't making any sense at all. I never said that, or anything remotely like it. Quit making shit up.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.