France bans Muslim public prayers

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France bans Muslim public prayers

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/france-bans-public-muslim-prayers/story-e6frg6so-1226138737349

 

Quote:

MUSLIMS will be banned from praying outdoors in France from today in the latest move by officials to remove Islam from the public sphere.

The ban, announced by the government yesterday, infuriated French Muslim leaders, one of whom accused President Sarkozy's government of treating them like cattle.

They say that Muslims, who pray outdoors only because of a lack of space in mosques in France, feel stigmatised.

But Claude Gueant, the Interior Minister, said that the sight of hundreds of people gathering in the streets of Paris and other cities for Friday prayers was "shocking".

It comes after laws to prohibit pupils from wearing headscarves in schools and women from wearing the niqab, the full Muslim veil, in public.

Mr Gueant described outlawing street prayers as the latest brick in the wall that is shoring up the secular nature of the French state. He said that he had nothing against Islam, but wanted it out of the public eye.

"Street prayers must stop because they hurt the feelings of many of our compatriots who are shocked by the occupation of the public space for a religious practice," he said.

Police could be asked to arrest Muslims who continue to pray in the street, Mr Gueant warned, but officials will initially try to persuade them to move into a mosque.

Debate has focused on the Goutte d'Or district in northern Paris. Dozens and sometimes hundreds of Muslims pray in the surrounding streets.

Marine Le Pen, the leader of the National Front, was accused of racism when she said that the worship amounted to an "occupation" - a word that for many French is associated with the Nazi invasion during the Second World War.

But the government now appears to be on the same wavelength, with Mr Gueant agreeing that street prayers would "upset" his fellow countrymen.

He said that officials had made available a disused fire station in the Goutte d'Or with room for 2700 people for a rent of €30,000 ($A40,330) a year.

But Muslim leaders said that the site would be open to worshippers only on Fridays.

Mohamed Salah Hamza, imam at a mosque in the Goutte d'Or district, said: "We are not cattle. Our demands have not entirely been satisfied."

He said that he feared worshippers would continue to pray outside.

"I am in an uncomfortable position and I am afraid there will be a climate of anarchy," he said.

THE TIMES

 

 

 

I mean really? The Interior Minister has nothing against Islam, but he doesn't want to see it?

 

 


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Grow up ZuS. Watcher used to be a mod here before his life got complicated. He knows how to do battle on the internet. Your avatar is nearly gay porn.

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ZuS wrote:You get all that

ZuS wrote:

You get all that from an avatar photo? Wow.

No, the reason you won't have an adult conversation with me is because you grew into an adult who doesn't have adult conversations. Still, try to do your kids a favor and stop advocating global war. I hope a date-rapist and an inbred redneck can at least agree that uncontrolled mayhem is not good.

No, I don't get "all that" from an avatar photo.  That would involve me not taking your post into consideration.

Try to keep up.

You throw out ideas that other people thought out for you.   Because you accepted it as being...tolerant or accepted or something...without exerting anything of yourself.   There's no original ideas coming from you.   You're a crowd pleaser.

In the early days a lot of theists made comments on my avatar pic.   Because I was a pissed off atheist attacking their ideas and I had a retarded avatar pic of me showing myself with no shirt on.   That reinforced their preconceived ideas that atheists are arrogant and only care for themselves.   They are selfish.

That's the stereotype they used against me like a weapon.   So I changed it to a more realistic picture.

A loving and devoted father dozing with his firstborn child on a couch.

So then I could call them stupid.  I could call them idiots.   And they look at my representative picture for my avatar and it DOES NOT fit in their preconcieved ideas of what a bastard jerk asshole of an atheist should look like.   It added weight to my argument.

I have to explain this nuance of human nature to you because of why?

Because I'm retarded but you've got it all figured out, yeah right.

Well I'm all ears.

No one is going to take you serious as any kind of a mental heavy-weight, in this type of discussion, meaning mental, if the only visual image that you allow anyone to see is your physical.

You can grasp this simple concept right?   I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, because, hell, you're an atheist, so you should, maybe, have some thinking power.

Do I have to be this blunt?

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Answers in Gene Simmons

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

p { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }

Grow up ZuS. Watcher used to be a mod here before his life got complicated. He knows how to do battle on the internet. Your avatar is nearly gay porn.

 

I am not here to "do battle" or issue gay porn. My appologies, your Grownupness.

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Watcher wrote:ZuS wrote:You

Watcher wrote:

ZuS wrote:

You get all that from an avatar photo? Wow.

No, the reason you won't have an adult conversation with me is because you grew into an adult who doesn't have adult conversations. Still, try to do your kids a favor and stop advocating global war. I hope a date-rapist and an inbred redneck can at least agree that uncontrolled mayhem is not good.

No, I don't get "all that" from an avatar photo.  That would involve me not taking your post into consideration.

Try to keep up.

You throw out ideas that other people thought out for you.   Because you accepted it as being...tolerant or accepted or something...without exerting anything of yourself.   There's no original ideas coming from you.   You're a crowd pleaser.

In the early days a lot of theists made comments on my avatar pic.   Because I was a pissed off atheist attacking their ideas and I had a retarded avatar pic of me showing myself with no shirt on.   That reinforced their preconceived ideas that atheists are arrogant and only care for themselves.   They are selfish.

That's the stereotype they used against me like a weapon.   So I changed it to a more realistic picture.

A loving and devoted father dozing with his firstborn child on a couch.

So then I could call them stupid.  I could call them idiots.   And they look at my representative picture for my avatar and it DOES NOT fit in their preconcieved ideas of what a bastard jerk asshole of an atheist should look like.   It added weight to my argument.

I have to explain this nuance of human nature to you because of why?

Because I'm retarded but you've got it all figured out, yeah right.

Well I'm all ears.

No one is going to take you serious as any kind of a mental heavy-weight, in this type of discussion, meaning mental, if the only visual image that you allow anyone to see is your physical.

You can grasp this simple concept right?   I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, because, hell, you're an atheist, so you should, maybe, have some thinking power.

Do I have to be this blunt?

Look, dude, let's forget the avatar for a while. Yea, religion is a bullshit story, but so is the islamic takeover of the world. US has bases in over 130 countries, we kill/torture/maim civilians at will world wide (including US citizens) and are currenty turning the US into a third world country. Does that sound like muslim takeover of the world to you? No, but it sure as shit sounds like they need a convenient red scare type of story to sell to the disenfranchised angry average man. That's you'r muslim threat right there - bullshit divide-and-conquer tactics of our corporate government.

Also, I am not particularly tolerant. I call you ignorant not because I am tolerant, right? Let me try to speak to the redneck in you Smiling I know, some cultural degenerates with particular ethnic/religious affiliation can be annoying when they get their hard-on in groups, I've tried it. I've been a bouncer in big cities since I was 16 (pushing 34 now), I've dealt with groups of these punks, they ain't shit one-on-one, which pisses me off even more. But don't be afraid of that stuff - that's just the street. The stupid culturally impoverished masses like you and I. They are just insecure cunts, just like the average Tea Party-goer. It's not the real problem and we can deal with it locally. Just don't be afraid and try to think straight. And occupy wall street. Once the religious minorities are the problem, trust me, I will come occupy a temple of Mithra with you.

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.

ZuS wrote:

Watcher wrote:

ZuS wrote:

You get all that from an avatar photo? Wow.

No, the reason you won't have an adult conversation with me is because you grew into an adult who doesn't have adult conversations. Still, try to do your kids a favor and stop advocating global war. I hope a date-rapist and an inbred redneck can at least agree that uncontrolled mayhem is not good.

No, I don't get "all that" from an avatar photo.  That would involve me not taking your post into consideration.

Try to keep up.

You throw out ideas that other people thought out for you.   Because you accepted it as being...tolerant or accepted or something...without exerting anything of yourself.   There's no original ideas coming from you.   You're a crowd pleaser.

In the early days a lot of theists made comments on my avatar pic.   Because I was a pissed off atheist attacking their ideas and I had a retarded avatar pic of me showing myself with no shirt on.   That reinforced their preconceived ideas that atheists are arrogant and only care for themselves.   They are selfish.

That's the stereotype they used against me like a weapon.   So I changed it to a more realistic picture.

A loving and devoted father dozing with his firstborn child on a couch.

So then I could call them stupid.  I could call them idiots.   And they look at my representative picture for my avatar and it DOES NOT fit in their preconcieved ideas of what a bastard jerk asshole of an atheist should look like.   It added weight to my argument.

I have to explain this nuance of human nature to you because of why?

Because I'm retarded but you've got it all figured out, yeah right.

Well I'm all ears.

No one is going to take you serious as any kind of a mental heavy-weight, in this type of discussion, meaning mental, if the only visual image that you allow anyone to see is your physical.

You can grasp this simple concept right?   I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, because, hell, you're an atheist, so you should, maybe, have some thinking power.

Do I have to be this blunt?

Look, dude, let's forget the avatar for a while. Yea, religion is a bullshit story, but so is the islamic takeover of the world. US has bases in over 130 countries, we kill/torture/maim civilians at will world wide (including US citizens) and are currenty turning the US into a third world country. Does that sound like muslim takeover of the world to you? No, but it sure as shit sounds like they need a convenient red scare type of story to sell to the disenfranchised angry average man. That's you'r muslim threat right there - bullshit divide-and-conquer tactics of our corporate government.

Also, I am not particularly tolerant. I call you ignorant not because I am tolerant, right? Let me try to speak to the redneck in you Smiling I know, some cultural degenerates with particular ethnic/religious affiliation can be annoying when they get their hard-on in groups, I've tried it. I've been a bouncer in big cities since I was 16 (pushing 34 now), I've dealt with groups of these punks, they ain't shit one-on-one, which pisses me off even more. But don't be afraid of that stuff - that's just the street. The stupid culturally impoverished masses like you and I. They are just insecure cunts, just like the average Tea Party-goer. It's not the real problem and we can deal with it locally. Just don't be afraid and try to think straight. And occupy wall street. Once the religious minorities are the problem, trust me, I will come occupy a temple of Mithra with you.

One cannot have read the posts of Watcher for long without realizing he is an intolerant racist bigot of either the Christian redneck variety or the Jewish strain. It drips from every post. The hatred of religion is not atheist but directed towards only one, in fact the one that invented monotheism. There is no simple declarative sentence in all the world history of religion prior to "there is no god but God" in Islam. This is not to say I think a Swiss army knife god is better than specialist gods having owned several Swiss army knives I know they are shit.

 

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                    Look what is calling the kettle black.  It takes it's usual anti-semetic BS and directs it at watcher for the sake of ignorence & hatred; your pathetic.

 

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There are two intolerant

There are two intolerant bigots pointing at each other in this topic. Not one.

It's also pretty fucking childish to attack the avatar someones used for two years just because you don't like something he said. Attack the argument, don't be a whiny little bitch.

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ZuS wrote:Look, dude, let's

ZuS wrote:

Look, dude, let's forget the avatar for a while.

(Not speaking as a mod, just me.)

I agree. Irrelevant, IMO. I think this mini-conflict is more about miscommunication than actual major differences of opinion.

I seem to recall ZuS from before and I'm pretty sure-ish he's a reasonable-ish guy.

I bet if you guys reduced the amount of personal stuff in this discussion, things would quickly simmer down and make for a good discussion of the issues.

I'm basing my opinion here on the recent experiences I've had which I explain in this post: http://www.rationalresponders.com/still_unapologetic

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Quote:in fact the one that

Quote:
in fact the one that invented monotheism.

Actually I believe that Akonaton(sp) was the first ruler to attempt to make Ra the one true god. The Egyptian population at the time did not find it popular and even attempted to rid the monuments he made during his time of this idea after he died.

And Zoroaster is also much older than the Hebrews.

Ideas are never "invented" but morph from prior motifs.

"Deities" have always been around as claims in human history. Changing details, powers or names, and writing books does not change that there were always people before that they competed with. Some continue, all change, and most die  over a changing population.

2,000 years from now it would not surprise me if the god/s of Abraham morph into something else, or die and get treated like the Egyptian gods. We even have a few nuts today that worship "The Force" from Star Wars as if it were real.

Myths come and go and grow or fail for the same reason a soda or beer company grows or fails. Marketing and competition.

 

 

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 I've never seen Watcher

 I've never seen Watcher say anything about Muslims that was even bordering on reasonable. Concerning this issue though, I think it's wrong to even call it civil disobedience. To try to frame it as an invasion is just stupid.

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Gauche wrote: I've never

Gauche wrote:

 I've never seen Watcher say anything about Muslims that was even bordering on reasonable. Concerning this issue though, I think it's wrong to even call it civil disobedience. To try to frame it as an invasion is just stupid.

While it is true that far too much of Islam is still in the Dark Ages, you don't use oppression to pull them into pluralism. You instead use the free market which includes BOTH blasphemy and the promotion of pluralism AND the equal enforcement of common law.

So in reality, if a bunch of Christians are blocking a public street illegally to the point cars and pedestrians cant pass, THAT is the crime, not their Christianity. If they are violating private property laws, THAT is the crime, not the Christiantiy. If they are violating noise laws. THAT IS THE CRIME. If they are advocating violence, THAT is the crime.

A Muslim merely praying on a mat in your view when they are not violating any laws, is not a crime. If you want to combat their superstition, use the same free market they are using to pray.

The very thing the Age Of Enlightenment produced is the very thing France will destroy by attempting this and it will do nothing but create a deeper divide between Islam and the west.

Using laws to oppress thoughts is stupid. You combat absurdity by using the same market of ideas they use to spread their absurdity.

 

 

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Watcher wrote:Cpt_pineapple

Watcher wrote:

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

and Sandy it offends you? So what? You don't have a right to not be offended, and they have freedom of speech.

Sandy has every right to be offended.  And you don't have the right to tell her she doesn't.

She DOES have a right to be offended. You missed his point. "SO WHAT"?

You don't have a right to pass laws telling him he cant respond to her claims. If you open your mouth, and someone responds to it, you DONT have a right to pass laws saying they cant respond to it.

It works like this.

"Person a claims x or says x"

"Person b responds to it"

That is all he was saying. She IS entitled to express her emotions, and HE is entitled to call "bullpucky". No one is suggesting here that laws be created to stop others from expressing their emotions.

His only point was, "you are offended, so what".

 

 

 

 

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Gauche
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Brian37 wrote:While it is

Brian37 wrote:

While it is true that far too much of Islam is still in the Dark Ages, you don't use oppression to pull them into pluralism. You instead use the free market which includes BOTH blasphemy and the promotion of pluralism AND the equal enforcement of common law.

So in reality, if a bunch of Christians are blocking a public street illegally to the point cars and pedestrians cant pass, THAT is the crime, not their Christianity. If they are violating private property laws, THAT is the crime, not the Christiantiy. If they are violating noise laws. THAT IS THE CRIME. If they are advocating violence, THAT is the crime.

A Muslim merely praying on a mat in your view when they are not violating any laws, is not a crime. If you want to combat their superstition, use the same free market they are using to pray.

The very thing the Age Of Enlightenment produced is the very thing France will destroy by attempting this and it will do nothing but create a deeper divide between Islam and the west.

Using laws to oppress thoughts is stupid. You combat absurdity by using the same market of ideas they use to spread their absurdity.

Well, I'm not in favor of it. I think it's unnecessary. To me it's a problem for the Muslim community to resolve by renting space. If people discriminate and won't let space for them then the government should take action. In a secular society though government funding of religious places of worship is banned so I don't think people should be allowed to make public spaces their places of worship.  In a way it does violate the law.

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Brian37
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Gauche wrote:Brian37

Gauche wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

While it is true that far too much of Islam is still in the Dark Ages, you don't use oppression to pull them into pluralism. You instead use the free market which includes BOTH blasphemy and the promotion of pluralism AND the equal enforcement of common law.

So in reality, if a bunch of Christians are blocking a public street illegally to the point cars and pedestrians cant pass, THAT is the crime, not their Christianity. If they are violating private property laws, THAT is the crime, not the Christiantiy. If they are violating noise laws. THAT IS THE CRIME. If they are advocating violence, THAT is the crime.

A Muslim merely praying on a mat in your view when they are not violating any laws, is not a crime. If you want to combat their superstition, use the same free market they are using to pray.

The very thing the Age Of Enlightenment produced is the very thing France will destroy by attempting this and it will do nothing but create a deeper divide between Islam and the west.

Using laws to oppress thoughts is stupid. You combat absurdity by using the same market of ideas they use to spread their absurdity.

Well, I'm not in favor of it. I think it's unnecessary. To me it's a problem for the Muslim community to resolve by renting space. If people discriminate and won't let space for them then the government should take action. In a secular society though government funding of religious places of worship is banned so I don't think people should be allowed to make public spaces their places of worship.  In a way it does violate the law.

HOW?

Even outside the issue of religion. If I am standing on the street corner claiming to be Napolean and all it is doing is irritating you, what line have I crossed?

Just because the public paid taxes to build that sidewalk doesn't mean they have the right to stop minorities from using it. If someone thinks praying on a mat to a god they don't believe in is nuts, then use the same sidewalk to tell them they are nuts, just don't stop them from using the same sidewalk you us and BOTH of you paid for.

NOW if there is a common law that prevents ANYONE from sitting or praying on a sidewalk for safety reasons, there again, if its applied equally to all no matter what they are doing , even if they were protesting for animal rights, then the law is being applied equally.

Like I said, if everyone goes by common law, and no one is violating common law, thats all you need.

France is not applying common law, they are institutionalizing censorship out of fear and aiming that censorship at one label. That is a dangerous game long term. Government should never play morality or thought police.

 

 

 

 

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Gauche
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Brian37 wrote:Gauche

Brian37 wrote:

Gauche wrote:

Well, I'm not in favor of it. I think it's unnecessary. To me it's a problem for the Muslim community to resolve by renting space. If people discriminate and won't let space for them then the government should take action. In a secular society though government funding of religious places of worship is banned so I don't think people should be allowed to make public spaces their places of worship.  In a way it does violate the law.

HOW?

Even outside the issue of religion. If I am standing on the street corner claiming to be Napolean and all it is doing is irritating you, what line have I crossed?

Just because the public paid taxes to build that sidewalk doesn't mean they have the right to stop minorities from using it. If someone thinks praying on a mat to a god they don't believe in is nuts, then use the same sidewalk to tell them they are nuts, just don't stop them from using the same sidewalk you us and BOTH of you paid for.

NOW if there is a common law that prevents ANYONE from sitting or praying on a sidewalk for safety reasons, there again, if its applied equally to all no matter what they are doing , even if they were protesting for animal rights, then the law is being applied equally.

Like I said, if everyone goes by common law, and no one is violating common law, thats all you need.

France is not applying common law, they are institutionalizing censorship out of fear and aiming that censorship at one label. That is a dangerous game long term. Government should never play morality or thought police.

Well, if you block the sidewalk without a permit obviously that's not allowed. For the sake of argument let's say you're not on the sidewalk. Let's say that you're in the public garden or park, then you wouldn't be blocking anyone and you'd have the same right to use it as everyone else but the government doesn't have the right to use public funds to build and maintain religious places of worship. That has been illegal in France since 1905.

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
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Gauche wrote:Brian37

Gauche wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Gauche wrote:

Well, I'm not in favor of it. I think it's unnecessary. To me it's a problem for the Muslim community to resolve by renting space. If people discriminate and won't let space for them then the government should take action. In a secular society though government funding of religious places of worship is banned so I don't think people should be allowed to make public spaces their places of worship.  In a way it does violate the law.

HOW?

Even outside the issue of religion. If I am standing on the street corner claiming to be Napolean and all it is doing is irritating you, what line have I crossed?

Just because the public paid taxes to build that sidewalk doesn't mean they have the right to stop minorities from using it. If someone thinks praying on a mat to a god they don't believe in is nuts, then use the same sidewalk to tell them they are nuts, just don't stop them from using the same sidewalk you us and BOTH of you paid for.

NOW if there is a common law that prevents ANYONE from sitting or praying on a sidewalk for safety reasons, there again, if its applied equally to all no matter what they are doing , even if they were protesting for animal rights, then the law is being applied equally.

Like I said, if everyone goes by common law, and no one is violating common law, thats all you need.

France is not applying common law, they are institutionalizing censorship out of fear and aiming that censorship at one label. That is a dangerous game long term. Government should never play morality or thought police.

Well, if you block the sidewalk without a permit obviously that's not allowed. For the sake of argument let's say you're not on the sidewalk. Let's say that you're in the public garden or park, then you wouldn't be blocking anyone and you'd have the same right to use it as everyone else but the government doesn't have the right to use public funds to build and maintain religious places of worship. That has been illegal in France since 1905.

Well, America has ignored the establishment clause and Jefferson's religious freedom act, which Madison used to write the First Amendment. I am glad France bans public funds to support religion. But again, maybe I am not getting it.

This law seems to be aimed solely at Muslims. THAT is my problem. Is France applying this law to all religions? If they are, then I don't have a problem with it. If they are only applying it to Muslims, then it ceases to be common law and becomes censorship.

If I am missing something, please explain.

 

 

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Brian37 wrote:Well, America

Brian37 wrote:

Well, America has ignored the establishment clause and Jefferson's religious freedom act, which Madison used to write the First Amendment. I am glad France bans public funds to support religion. But again, maybe I am not getting it.

This law seems to be aimed solely at Muslims. THAT is my problem. Is France applying this law to all religions? If they are, then I don't have a problem with it. If they are only applying it to Muslims, then it ceases to be common law and becomes censorship.

If I am missing something, please explain.

I think it's unfair to Muslims, not necessarily because of prejudice but because they arrived late. Catholic and Protestant churches were built with public funds and some are maintained with public funds because they were built before 1905.  Muslims face a situation where many people want to go to a mosque because they are immigrants - every successive generation experiences a reduction in church attendance- but have no public funds to help build or maintain these places and a now very secular government that is completely unsympathetic to that. 

Strangely, I experienced nearly the exact situation in the US. Parishioners of a Catholic church in my neighborhood were blocking the street with their cars because of lack of parking spaces. It was tolerated for a long time because the priest at this church had been murdered. Eventually they raised enough money to buy the adjacent property and build a parking lot.

I think what was done in both situations was appropriate. It was tolerated for a while. People had time to raise funds. They use those funds to resolve the problem.

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natural wrote:I seem to

natural wrote:

I seem to recall ZuS from before and I'm pretty sure-ish he's a reasonable-ish guy.

That is the nicest thing anyone has ever said about me...

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ZuS wrote:natural wrote:I

ZuS wrote:

natural wrote:

I seem to recall ZuS from before and I'm pretty sure-ish he's a reasonable-ish guy.

That is the nicest thing anyone has ever said about me...

Nice arms, ZuS.

 

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ZuS wrote:Look, dude, let's

ZuS wrote:

Look, dude, let's forget the avatar for a while. Yea, religion is a bullshit story, but so is the islamic takeover of the world.

 I agree.   The one topic I am least logical about is Islam.   Burn them all.   They will never reason with non-muslims.   Burn their bodies to the ground.  

I realize this is probably an illogical and insane viewpoint, however I'm begging for a reason to draw me away from this extreme.   I hope desperately that such a reason makes it's presence known to me soon.

 

ZuS wrote:

US has bases in over 130 countries, we kill/torture/maim civilians at will world wide (including US citizens)

 Ok you keep bringing up some idea that the US military is on a hunt to slaughter not just non-US citizens but US citizens themselves.

Where is this idea coming from?  What the hell did you read?

The US is expending time, effort, and boatloads of money for the jollies of killing, torturing, and maiming...us, US citizens, their own law abiding people?

You've got to provide me with some source material on this.   Please.

I was in the US military for six years.   We bombed the living fuck out of Yugoslavia during the Kosovo campaign, we also fucked up Afghanistan right after 9/11.   I was there.  We fucked up a lot of people.

Guess how many people we tortured?   Uh, fucking none.

Guess how many Americans we did ANYTHING to but support and defend?   Fucking not a single one.

What the fuck are you talking about?   Do you have so little of an opinion of your fellow Americans (are you American?) that you think they will cheerfully torture other Americans, or indiscriminately kill them or maim them for...what reason exactly?   What the fuck are you talking about?

I pulled a lot of scared women, children, and old men out of stranded boats in the Adriatic during the Kosovo thing.   If anyone, ANYONE, so much as punched any of them in my presence I would have 1) been shocked; 2) attacked the person doing the punching.

We were normal people.   We weren't some bloodthirsty killers that didn't have mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, cousins, children, wives, husbands, that we all loved.   We weren't some gang of serial killers brought together because of our disdain for human life.   We were sheltered Americans, living in a gentle, well regulated safe country.   Where violence on non-threatening and innocent people is simply NOT tolerable.  The military never tried to counteract that basic component of how we were raised.

Why do you think we'd magically turn into some kind of monsters because we donned a uniform or went to bootcamp?

ZuS wrote:

and are currenty turning the US into a third world country.

*grins*  That's cute.  You don't understand what "First World", "Second World", or "Third World" means.

Those terms were created during the Cold War between the US and the USSR.   The "First World" was the US and allies.   The "Second World" was the USSR and it's allies.   A "Third World" was ANY country that remained neutral.

There is a big difference between "Third World" and undeveloped or primitive. 

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:One

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

One cannot have read the posts of Watcher for long without realizing he is an intolerant racist bigot of either the Christian redneck variety or the Jewish strain. It drips from every post. The hatred of religion is not atheist but directed towards only one, in fact the one that invented monotheism. There is no simple declarative sentence in all the world history of religion prior to "there is no god but God" in Islam. This is not to say I think a Swiss army knife god is better than specialist gods having owned several Swiss army knives I know they are shit.=

Personal vendetta aimed against your nemesis that refuses to tolerate your intense, all-consuming hatred of Jews.   So suck a Muslim dick.  Oh, wait.   You never stopped.

Check my post history, Muslim.   I've ripped more Christian assholes open than any other religion.

I won't keep you any longer.   I know you're busy posting about the poor innocent Palestinian suicide bombers blowing up babies on buses and how the Jews are horrible, disgusting pigs for not tolerating that.

And let me make this CRYSTAL CLEAR, how am I racist because I hate people that buy into a belief system?   If you are white, black, yellow, red, orange, purple, polka dotted, and you are an atheist you start off a relationship with me on pretty favorably grounds.   If you are any of these "races" but you subscribe to Islam, you're in the fucking gutter of my opinion of you.  I don't give a fuck what ethnic group you are.

That's being a racist?

Fuck, I'm a racist against Scientologists too.

I refuse to be tolerant of someone killing me because I or my loved ones were simply born in this geographical location.   That's what Muslims do.   They don't kill you because you are a physical threat but just because you exist.   You were born.  And you aren't them, therefore worthy of death.   And they teach them that they will be rewarded for that.

Well fuck you.   Jewish religion doesn't teach that.   The Jews don't even try to make anyone agree with their religious beliefs, there are zero jewish missionaries.   How many Muslim outreach programs are there for killing anyone that is not Muslim?   Can you HONESTLY answer those questions?   No you won't.   You'll obfuscate.   Fucking scum.

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


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Vastet wrote: Attack the

Vastet wrote:
Attack the argument, don't be a whiny little bitch.

 

Wow!  Fucking wow.

You whined, completely emotionally, and 100 percent illogically about the US nuking Japan during WWII being somehow the most evil thing ever done in the history of humanity.

Like you said, don't be a whiney little bitch.

Holy fuck...

Wow.

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


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Gauche wrote: I've never

Gauche wrote:

 I've never seen Watcher say anything about Muslims that was even bordering on reasonable. Concerning this issue though, I think it's wrong to even call it civil disobedience. To try to frame it as an invasion is just stupid.

Gauche, I mean the following statement as both a compliment and an insult.

You remind me of Chomsky.   I don't agree with your opinions, but I respect your ideas.   And I take your comment seriously.

I both agree and disagree with your first statement quoted above.

To indiscriminately slaughter any people whether a nationality, race, or religion is unreasonable.

To protect yourself by correctly identifying  and eliminating people that subscribe to an ideology that causes those people to want to slaughter you and everyone you love is not unreasonable.

To try and reason with an unreasonable adversary at the expense of your life is unreasonable.

 “We love death. The U.S. loves life. That is the big difference between us.” -Osama Bin Laden

Let's give each other what we love.

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


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Gauche wrote: I've never

Gauche wrote:

 I've never seen Watcher say anything about Muslims that was even bordering on reasonable.

Be very careful my friend.   You are thinking yourself into a corner.   In your "open minded" attempt to be tolerant to someone because of their skin color or gender, proving to everyone and yourself what an intelligent and fair person you are, you are blithely walking into a death trap.

Oriana Fallaci.   You should read her writings on this.

There is an old saying, "Bravery will get you so far.   Then it will get you killed."   The same thing can be modified about tolerance.

This isn't the intelligent, enlightened way of giving everyone a fair chance no matter what physical characteristics they have like sexual organs or skin color.   We're talking about their religion, their personal philosophy.   You do understand that discriminating against genetically assigned physical characteristics is utterly wrong but discriminating any people, regardless of physical characteristics but only based on their philosophy, especially a philosophy that preaches death to all people that don't agree with them are hugely different things, right?

Don't walk cheerfully into that death trap all proud of how progressive and enlightened you are.

Oriana Fallaci.   The Rage and the Pride.   She didn't form my opinions.   She reinforced opinions that I already held.

 

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


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 Are you suggesting that

 Are you suggesting that French Muslims want to slaughter the rest of the non-Muslim population? That's exactly the kind of wild accusation I was talking about.

 According to CFCM 59% of French Muslims are non-practicing, 22% of which claim to be Muslims only by birth and neither practice nor believe. Do you really think it's credible that they subscribe to murdering all their neighbors and more than 90% of the tax paying population in a country that provides one of the world's highest living standards through social services?

 Hell, only 25% of French Muslims attend mosque weekly. Do you expect me to believe that Muslims take their religion so seriously that they subscibe to mass genocide but not seriously enough to even attend a weekly religious service?

 This is nothing but conspiracy theory.

 

 http://www.lecfcm.fr/?p=2705

 

 

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Watcher wrote: I agree.  

Watcher wrote:

 I agree.   The one topic I am least logical about is Islam.   Burn them all.   They will never reason with non-muslims.   Burn their bodies to the ground.  

I realize this is probably an illogical and insane viewpoint, however I'm clutching for a reason to draw me away from this extreme.   I hope desperately that such a reason makes it's presence known to me soon.

 

I can suggest a line of reasoning to keep that irationality in check: every time you think that over a billion people world wide should be burned to death, including many US citizens, soldiers and their families, just because they belong to a specific ethnic minority or religion, remember that you are a jouvenile and that you should not trust yourself with decisions involving other people's lives.

 

Watcher wrote:

 Ok you keep bringing up some idea that the US military is on a hunt to slaughter not just non-US citizans but US citizans.

Where is this idea coming from?  What the hell did you read?

http://www.beaufortobserver.net/Articles-c-2011-09-30-256112.112112-Can-the-U-S-government-execute-a-U-S-citizen-without-a-trial.h...

I don't know why I bothered looking for that. The significance is lost on you. You see a dude with a beard on that photo. I see anyone the corporate government doesn't like. 4th amendment was there for a reason. Now it's gone.

Watcher wrote:

The US is expending time, effort, and boatloads of money for the jollies of killing, torturing, and maiming...us, US citizens, their tax base.

You've got to provide me with some source material on this.   Please.

I was in the US military for six years.   We bombed the living fuck out of Yugoslavia during the Kosovo campaign, we also fucked up Afghanistan right after 9/11.   I was there.  We fucked up a lot of people.

Guess how many people we tortured?   Uh, fucking none.

Guess how many Americans we did ANYTHING do but support and defend?   Fucking not a single one.

What the fuck are you talking about?   Do you have so little of an opinion of your fellow Americans that they will cheerfully torture other Americans, or indiscrimanetly kill them or maime them for...what reason exactly?   What the fuck are you talking about?

 

Not sure where to start. I suppose you consider Bradley Manning a traitor? http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/10/bradley-manning-legal-scholars-letter

I guess the private prison system that institutionalizes slavery is what black and poor people deserve anyway? http://motleynews.net/category/private-prisons/

Executing people for some investigator's promotion is cool too? http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/cases/usa-troy-davis

Don't worry about my opinion, it is sky-high regarding many US citizens and servicemen. Look at Wisconsin & Wall St. protests. Pure unadalturated goodness facing off Satan. Could you do us a favor and, if you don't want to help, at least stop embarrasing us?

Watcher wrote:

*grins*  That's cute.  You don't understand what "First World", "Second World", or "Third World" means.

Those terms were created during the Cold War between the US and the USSR.   The "First World" was the US and allies.   The "Second World" was the USSR and it's allies.   A "Third World" was ANY country that remained neutral.

There is a big difference between "Third World" and undeveloped or primitive. 

I can see that the intended meaning came across fine, you just chose not to comment it. US is not developing, but devolving instead; being smothered by money interest and is on the brink of becoming a full-blown fascist state. That has nothing to do with Muslims. They could have used your fear of communists or twinkies, and the result would be the same.

Watcher wrote:

 Yeah, tell me about all the guys you've beaten up.   *rolls eyes*

I'm willing to forget about your gay ass, obviously insecure, seeking some kind of reaction of what a big and strong dude you are, if you can just chill out.   Just chill out.

I was insecure for a long time.   I got over that.   Because I did things I never thought I could do back when I was insecure.   I got over my insecurities.   And I learned I'm...cool with myself, and a few other people think I'm kinda cool too.  And I got over it.

Yea, that's what I was trying to convey, how tough I am. You're a child.

Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.


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Watcher wrote:Vastet wrote:

Watcher wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Attack the argument, don't be a whiny little bitch.

 

Wow!  Fucking wow.

You whined, completely emotionally, and 100 percent illogically about the US nuking Japan during WWII being somehow the most evil thing ever done in the history of humanity.

Like you said, don't be a whiney little bitch.

Holy fuck...

Wow.

Rofl. Only a complete moron could equate the biggest terrorist attack in all of Earth history with whining about an avatar. Especially since YOU were the irrational and illogical one in that discussion.
Just fucking WOW.
And that's even ignoring your hypocrisy! Killing a few hundred thousand Japs? No prob! 3 thousand Americans die? Omgtdcfrttgghhtrre2wsccff1!!!1!

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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So pathetic.

So pathetic.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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A_Nony_Mouse

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/france-bans-public-muslim-prayers/story-e6frg6so-1226138737349

MUSLIMS will be banned from praying outdoors in France from today in the latest move by officials to remove Islam from the public sphere.

As Mark Twain observed, Man is a human animal some place between the angels and the French.

 

I have no idea what is going on in France. Here in the US I have worked with and done business with and socialized with Muslims in both DC and Tampa. I only noticed one praying standing, turned away, head tilted upwards. It was explain with a casual remark to the effect, in the head is good enough. These folks were from SE Asia with Pakistan the furthest west.

Were I to guess what it going on I would note almost all of them came from Algeria and there was a two decade long war of independence. The friction is still there. There is open friction between the Muslims from Algeria and the Jews from Algeria because the Jews sided with France in the war. (I have nothing against self interest but don't whine when it bites you in the butt.)

Maybe Algerians do not accept "in your head is good enough" but maybe also they are making a political point of being obnoxious about it. I have no idea. I know the French have made of fetish of their Egalite so perhaps they are the cause.

If it frightens you, like it does me, that France is doing this to Muslims, what makes you think that the Muslim majority of Palestine wouldn't do the same to non-Musilms? The way you talk you'd at least treat Jews the way you say these French Muslims are being treated.

If your hypocrisy were any more loud you'd drowned out a Super Bowl.

THIS is why I keep telling you that voting by itself cannot be the only tool in a society. The Muslims in America have tools to fight things like what France is doing. It could not be done as easily in the states.

Separation of powers, the ability of the minority to "petition the government for a redress of grievance".

NOW, I don't know what tools Muslims in France have to combat this, but like I said, in the states, it would be much harder.

We don't just have "majority rules" in the states and I am damned glad we don't. We have Jews, Muslims and even Atheist Pete Stark in our government because of separation of powers and the ability for the minority to be protected from an over zealous majority.

IF YOU WOULD skip the fucking labels you'd see I am talking about HOW a government should be set up, not who should or should not run it.

IF Palestine had our Constitution I would not fear being an atheist living there. But that is not what they want. If you want to prove me wrong, I would love it. I would love to see Palestine protect atheists, Jews, Christians, gays, lesbians.

DONT blast France for "voting" because that seems to be the only thing you think should count.

If you accept this as "mob rule" which it is, then you should understand why I will not support Palestine with it's current mindset.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Kapkao wrote:
...Again, what do the researchers have to say about the remaining functionality of these dated bombs? What about dated bombs vs. recently developed antimissile defenses? Are ABMs are as ineffective or effective as currently claimed?

I'm betting they don't know, either. In the end, it doesn't matter what you or I are willing to test. It simply matters what the people in control of the expensive toys in question are willing to develop, use, re-use, and retaliate against. My strong belief is that nuclear MAD will soon become an artifact of the past. The willingness to remain largely at peace may disappear as well, however I can't be so sure of that.

The effectiveness of any defense system is a bit of a joke. It is a rule of thumb which has yet to be violated that a defensive system costs at least ten times the cost of the weapon it is intended to counter. Even things as simple as anti-personnel mines are at least ten times cheaper than metal detectors and can be deployed in the thousands.

You can look at a hugely expensive ballistic missile system. Cold war experience says each group of silos requires only two men per shift and about ten total per group for the entire system of groups. And mostly the sit around reading porn and jerking off. An ABM system starts with a network of radar systems that must be manned 24/7. The system must launch anti-missiles which can hit a target about 1 sq meter in size 50 miles up at a closing speed of 30+ thousand miles per hour. The attacking ICBM needs only get within a mile or so of the center of a target that is not moving. Obviously the ICBM is cheaper than the defense.

For the record in high altitude bombing during WWII, a bomb that landed within a mile of its target was considered a success. Today ICBMs which are only a mile off target are considered room for improvement.

Even if the defensive system is perfect one on one the response has been known since before anyone was dumb enough to start thinking about funding ABM systems. One simply overwhelms the defensive system. Pick a cost ratio you like. Ten to one is just a rule of thumb but it is by experience never cheaper than that to defend. It is not an average. So one only has to spend 1/10th on the ICBMs as on the ABMs to be equal. We are talking nuclear weapons here. Spend 1/9th and the ABM system is overwhelmed and all targets are destroyed. It is really this simple.

This is why laser systems have been such a high priority since decades before it was possible to harm a fly at ten miles. It is the only approach which offers a hope of beating the 10:1 cost ratio. It is not certain that it will.

Also, the attacking country has to be able to afford the 1:9 ratio which is what broke the back of the Red Army towards the end of the Cold War.

So if laser systems can lower the ratio they also increase the cost of capital outlay by any potential attacker which is equally effective in preventing attack.

All of the above is why MAD is the best defense -- the attacker cannot survive the counter-attack. It is overall cheaper.

For the record the perfect ABM system was developed in the 1950s, the Nike Zeus system. It was simply to set off a nuclear warhead somewhat near incoming missiles and kill them. Then the EMP phenomenon was discovered at it was realized high altitude nukes over the US would shut down the power grid and wipe out most electronics and so forth. It also prevented the Nike Zeus system from responding to second and subsequent waves of attacks.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

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www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Kapkao wrote:
K, Physics Geek... tell me, what are the numbers for accelerating a REALLY FREAKING BIG projectile using orbital magnetic rails into Earth? The projectile is as massive and roughly as dense as the Chicxulub Impact bolide, moving at about x km/s, where x is the velocity of a potential impactor the size that the Chicxulub bolide is currently estimated to be hurling towards Earth's surface.

Just out of curiosity...

Despite the crap Hollywood keeps spewing out there is no such thing as an "orbital magnetic rail" as the very elementary rules say whatever it launches, no matter how fast, always comes back to hit it in the ass.

The real ideas require something be launched with a rocket system which at the apogee, highest point, it can slow the launch vehicle so that when it returns it misses the atmosphere and stays in orbit. After that it is more rocket fuel expended to get into the desired orbit. The point of the rail idea is to supply a large fraction of the required lift energy without a first stage. Given the presently impossible difficulties with such a system the best possible configuration is to have the lightest possible payload meaning to eliminate both the first and second stage but still impractical to the point of impossible with current technology.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Watcher wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

One cannot have read the posts of Watcher for long without realizing he is an intolerant racist bigot of either the Christian redneck variety or the Jewish strain. It drips from every post. The hatred of religion is not atheist but directed towards only one, in fact the one that invented monotheism. There is no simple declarative sentence in all the world history of religion prior to "there is no god but God" in Islam. This is not to say I think a Swiss army knife god is better than specialist gods having owned several Swiss army knives I know they are shit.=

Personal vendetta aimed against your nemesis that refuses to tolerate your intense, all-consuming hatred of Jews.   So suck a Muslim dick.  Oh, wait.   You never stopped.

Check my post history, Muslim.   I've ripped more Christian assholes open than any other religion.

I won't keep you any longer.   I know you're busy posting about the poor innocent Palestinian suicide bombers blowing up babies on buses and how the Jews are horrible, disgusting pigs for not tolerating that.

And let me make this CRYSTAL CLEAR, how am I racist because I hate people that buy into a belief system?   If you are white, black, yellow, red, orange, purple, polka dotted, and you are an atheist you start off a relationship with me on pretty favorably grounds.   If you are any of these "races" but you subscribe to Islam, you're in the fucking gutter of my opinion of you.  I don't give a fuck what ethnic group you are.

That's being a racist?

Fuck, I'm a racist against Scientologists too.

I refuse to be tolerant of someone killing me because I or my loved ones were simply born in this geographical location.   That's what Muslims do.   They don't kill you because you are a physical threat but just because you exist.   You were born.  And you aren't them, therefore worthy of death.   And they teach them that they will be rewarded for that.

Well fuck you.   Jewish religion doesn't teach that.   The Jews don't even try to make anyone agree with their religious beliefs, there are zero jewish missionaries.   How many Muslim outreach programs are there for killing anyone that is not Muslim?   Can you HONESTLY answer those questions?   No you won't.   You'll obfuscate.   Fucking scum.

 

Let me only comment that my response to the above crap was banished to "THERE" but the cause still remains here.

I request ONLY equal treatment. I have no problem with cut an paste of my response before THERE back to HERE in the interests of equal treatment.

This applies to ALL such posts where my replies were removed but the personal attacks are permitted to remain public without reply in their place of origin.

I have mentioned this before. I thought we had an agreement.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Brian37 wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/france-bans-public-muslim-prayers/story-e6frg6so-1226138737349

MUSLIMS will be banned from praying outdoors in France from today in the latest move by officials to remove Islam from the public sphere.

As Mark Twain observed, Man is a human animal some place between the angels and the French.

 

I have no idea what is going on in France. Here in the US I have worked with and done business with and socialized with Muslims in both DC and Tampa. I only noticed one praying standing, turned away, head tilted upwards. It was explain with a casual remark to the effect, in the head is good enough. These folks were from SE Asia with Pakistan the furthest west.

Were I to guess what it going on I would note almost all of them came from Algeria and there was a two decade long war of independence. The friction is still there. There is open friction between the Muslims from Algeria and the Jews from Algeria because the Jews sided with France in the war. (I have nothing against self interest but don't whine when it bites you in the butt.)

Maybe Algerians do not accept "in your head is good enough" but maybe also they are making a political point of being obnoxious about it. I have no idea. I know the French have made of fetish of their Egalite so perhaps they are the cause.

If it frightens you, like it does me, that France is doing this to Muslims, what makes you think that the Muslim majority of Palestine wouldn't do the same to non-Musilms? The way you talk you'd at least treat Jews the way you say these French Muslims are being treated.

What does this have to do with Jewish War Criminals and why do you think it matters? How does it justify 44 years and counting of jewish war crimes? 

And why will only my response be moved while your nonsense attack remains here as though there were no response?

 

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Normally, I would be

Normally, I would be bothered by this on the grounds that's it's discriminatory. That's something I abhor and fight against above most all else. I think what this comes down to, though, is that the devout are using public space that should be freely enjoyed by everyone. I don't know how very disruptive it is, but at the time of these prayers, if other people are prevented from carrying on their daily business unimpeded, then that is insensitive, even greedy and rude.