The great big thread of Nony vs. Israel

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The great big thread of Nony vs. Israel

For those who read my recommendations of The Jerusalem Post and Haaretz this is old news. For those who have better things to do with their time, such as forming opinion absent knowledge of the subject, the last week has become an admission of the obvious.

The one thing that was the unmentionable 800 lb gorilla in the room for months started being mentioned as an aside about a week ago by both the US and Israel. On Thursday in Israel the PM's Office said that when he spoke to the UN Netanyahu would address both the desire for peaceful negotiations and the 800 lb gorilla.

The gorilla is the fact that a state of Palestine can and presumably will take Israel before the ICJ, the International Court of Justice, for war crimes related to the occupation. Elvis has entered the building! Israelis have no defense. They are guilty as charged.

The gorilla is in the open. Izziehuggers take to the hills. Israel has routed your defense of Israel.

www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/netanyahu-israel-will-agree-to-upgrade-of-palestinian-status-not-statehood-1.384716

Quote:
Netanyahu told his interlocutors that granting the PA the status of a state would allow the Palestinians to go to the International Criminal Court in The Hague over issues like settlement construction. "But as long as it is less than a state, I'm ready to talk about it," a source familiar with the conversation quoted him as saying.

It is an admission of war crimes plain and simple.

Please folks, stop telling me I do not know what is going on but you do. Anyone who follows events in Israel would never have questioned Israel's war crimes.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

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www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


A_Nony_Mouse
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jcgadfly wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
...

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/hague02.asp#art24

My apologies for any confusion in this matter. A ruse to bring a destructive device into a group of members of the military of the occupying power sounds quite reasonable to me.

If there are people present who are not members of the military, the military cannot claim protection from attack by hiding among civilians.

The good news is, as the IDF and Shin Bet and all but politcians havce said is the violence is being as controlled as best it can be so violence is no longer an excuse to avoid ending the criminal occupation.

Again, a ruse or threat to bring a destructive device into a military unit to see how they'd react is different from actually bringing the device and using it.

It does not describe the kind of ruse. Sneaking into the midst of military personnel to kill them is also a ruse.

BTW: When the IDF takes what is left of their bodies hostage for trade they are temporarily buried in military cemeteries. That hardly suggests the IDF considers them other than combatants.

Quote:
I also understand that Israel has mandatory conscription. That doesn't mean that all Israelis are active military. Just like it doesn't mean that all Palestinians are terrorists because some Palestinians put bombs on things.

As I have posted so many times there is no distinction between on and off duty, active or reserve in any of the treaties. As you KNOW that why do you pretend not to know that? Do you post just to waste bandwidth when you know you are posting nonsense?

Quote:
Your cheerleading for the Palestinians to continue the war instead of working towards other solutions is only helping Israel - I thought you didn't want to do that.

Americans have always been against tyranny and in favor of self-determination. You might read up on 1776 and such to learn what that means for Americans.

Quote:
Newsflash - those soldiers and politicians want to continue the conflict as badly as you do so naturally they would lie. Lovely bunch of people you're siding with.

The conflict ENDS when the Jews leave the occupied territories. ONLY the Jews have the power to end the matter at any time they wish. If the politicians wanted to end it they would simply leave. They could walk back to Israel. It isn't that far and would be healthy.

But you know that.

Again you post to waste bandwidth.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


A_Nony_Mouse
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Vastet wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
Section III. Occupied territories
Absolutely irrelevant. That has absolutely nothing to do with my last two posts. But I'll play. The Palestinians are also guilty of war crimes by killing Israeli children. Your ridiculously ignorant attempt at a defence through attacking the Israeli parents for failing to protect their children automatically backfires and subjects the Palestinian parents to the same rules, thereby rendering the entire area as unsuitable for raising children, and making every parent a war criminal. You're so blatantly deluded and bigoted that it makes everything you say comedic.

As you KNOW, it an absolute right to attack any member of the military of the occupying country. They cannot claim to be protected when they hide among children. IDF is a bunch of cowards and the Izzies play the crying game.

So why do your heroes hide among civilians and then whine about collateral damage when they are lawfully killed?

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


A_Nony_Mouse
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Brian37 wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Brian37 wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
It is fortunate for the Republicans that "anyone but Obama" is polling so well as they do not appear to be able to find a candidate worth running. If it continues like this it really might be a Ron Paul moment.

Perhaps the reason is rather simpler. The winner buys the recession.

Why should American politics matter to you either way, all that matters is that a long standing beef continues because neither of the children want to grow up?

It is difficult to imagine you are unaware I am an American.

Quote:
And the irony is that right now, American politics isn't about problem solving, it's about dick measuring, which is the same thing going on between Israel and Palestine.

Palestinians want freedom from Jewish tyranny. Jews want to increase the tyranny not only in occupied territories but also in Israel.

Jews are very KKKlanish in this regard. Show me the Jews who have rejected beyond those I have mentioned if you do not like my use of Jews without the unnecessary mention of a trivially small minority.

Consider Cast Lead, the operation in 2010 where the Israeli jewish foreign minister demanded wanton, discriminant destruction, aka hooliganism. 92% of jewish Israelis supported it. Every survey I found of Jews in other countries put approval in the high 80s.

LETS SAY for example you get the weapons to defeat Israel, how would the non military Jews who remain under your surrender be treated? Would they be welcome to participate in your new government?

No one knows the future. How does this justify jewish tyranny over Palestinians?

Quote:
After all your talk about them being tyrants, and treating them like Nazis, please don't make me laugh. I think you'd string them up like Mussolini.[/quotes]

They ARE tyrants. They FREELY CHOOSE to be tyrants. They can STOP being tyrants at any time they want.

You appear to be arguing that they should stop immediately as I keep saying. Why do you no want them to stop?

Quote:
The problem is THEY ARE NOT Mussolini. They are merely suffering under the same right wing rule the Palestinians are under. They just have a different gang flag they cheer for.

More like Nazis than Fascists actually. Italy annexed nothing. Germany annexed western Poland. Israel annexed the Golan Heights and Jerusalem. Both created huge refugee populations. Both ran criminal occupations.

As you know, Israel has no left wing politics in American terms. Its far left wing is to the right of center in US politics. There is no suffering in a democracy. In a democracy it is a matter of choice. It is called elections.

Quote:
You want to accuse them of wanting to set up gas chambers for Muslims, but the way you talk it wouldn't surprise me if you did the same if you won.

Of course no gas chambers. Bad publicity. Raw sewage onto Palestinian farm land doesn't get the bad press and the diseases are quite a fatal. Restricting water well below minimum sanitary needs also breeds disease. Letting them die at checkpoints instead of letting them get to hospitals is another favorite method of the Jews. Squatters attack Palestinians, Palestinians fight back and the IDF shows up and opens fire on the Palestinians.

There is a lot more if you insist upon going into it.

This is what you are defending.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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EXC wrote:

The problem is only Nony can see that Jews are black on left side, we just can't see it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vi7QQ5pO7_A&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oi97fXRkgss&feature=related

Are the characters in Big Bang Theory modelled on you? The juvenality wisdom of Star Trek is obvious to all but the characters in that show.

Did you enjoy the last Comicon?

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


jcgadfly
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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:jcgadfly

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
...

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/hague02.asp#art24

My apologies for any confusion in this matter. A ruse to bring a destructive device into a group of members of the military of the occupying power sounds quite reasonable to me.

If there are people present who are not members of the military, the military cannot claim protection from attack by hiding among civilians.

The good news is, as the IDF and Shin Bet and all but politcians havce said is the violence is being as controlled as best it can be so violence is no longer an excuse to avoid ending the criminal occupation.

Again, a ruse or threat to bring a destructive device into a military unit to see how they'd react is different from actually bringing the device and using it.

It does not describe the kind of ruse. Sneaking into the midst of military personnel to kill them is also a ruse.

BTW: When the IDF takes what is left of their bodies hostage for trade they are temporarily buried in military cemeteries. That hardly suggests the IDF considers them other than combatants.

Quote:
I also understand that Israel has mandatory conscription. That doesn't mean that all Israelis are active military. Just like it doesn't mean that all Palestinians are terrorists because some Palestinians put bombs on things.

As I have posted so many times there is no distinction between on and off duty, active or reserve in any of the treaties. As you KNOW that why do you pretend not to know that? Do you post just to waste bandwidth when you know you are posting nonsense?

Quote:
Your cheerleading for the Palestinians to continue the war instead of working towards other solutions is only helping Israel - I thought you didn't want to do that.

Americans have always been against tyranny and in favor of self-determination. You might read up on 1776 and such to learn what that means for Americans.

Quote:
Newsflash - those soldiers and politicians want to continue the conflict as badly as you do so naturally they would lie. Lovely bunch of people you're siding with.

The conflict ENDS when the Jews leave the occupied territories. ONLY the Jews have the power to end the matter at any time they wish. If the politicians wanted to end it they would simply leave. They could walk back to Israel. It isn't that far and would be healthy.

But you know that.

Again you post to waste bandwidth.

 

Poor Nony. Butthurt because he doesn't know the conventions he cites. I understand that you want the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians to continue. I mean, what would you do with your pom-poms and your blue and white star of David sweater if they grew up?

Sneaking into an enemy camp to kill them is not a ruse - it is an attack. It also does nothing to gain information about the enemy so your boys are still war criminals by your standards. 

I'm still in favor of ending tyranny on both sides - why do you want it to continue? 

You also have an interesting double standard. Israel has no civilians in your eyes - just off-duty military. The Palestinians have no combatants in your eyes - the guys who strap bombs to themselves or attack enemy camps (directly or by infiltration) are all victims. Do you salute your Israeli flag with one hand or both? Or do you have two flags (one for each hand)?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Vastet
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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:s you

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
s you KNOW, it an absolute right to attack any member of the military of the occupying country

As you apparently DON'T know, children are not a military, economic, or political target.

If hiding amongst children is a crime, then both sides are guilty of it.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Atheistextremist
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Fun thread, everybody.

 

Interesting to hear theist titles used as insults on this site. 

Personally, I think the left tends towards pathological altruism when it comes to fundamentalist religious belief systems. I think it's possible to be so blindly inclusive you embrace intolerance mistaking it for faith. The future is sure to inform us if we did. 

I think you could make a solid case that islam mirrors christianity's discordant past. Islam needs to be completely divorced from government. Where it dominates it prosecutes a bigotry so fundamental no other voices can be permitted to exist. This truth is visible in all islamic societies and it is pointless debating it. Islam even hates and murders itself, just as christians used to do. 

At present Islam seems to me the most culpable of the monotheistic beliefs in terms of encouraging attacks on dhimmis or infidel sects. But Judaism at the fundamental level does, too. The settlements in Palestine are morally inconsistent and apparently rabbis call for fundamentalist jewish people to seize land, destroy crops and all the rest of it. This is clearly wrong. 

Then there's christianity, which thanks to the teachings of the alleged jesus, is the softest of all the monotheistic threat-fests. If you really are following NT doctrine, you're not going to be killing anyone. But there's always the OT to turn to when you want to demonise women, gays, the other guy. 

It takes no great effort to see that monotheism is a form of bigotry that should be demonised and pilloried as the cultural apartheid it undoubtedly is.  

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


Kapkao
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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

Interesting to hear theist titles used as insults on this site. 

Personally, I think the left tends towards pathological altruism when it comes to fundamentalist religious belief systems. I think it's possible to be so blindly inclusive you embrace intolerance mistaking it for faith. The future is sure to inform us if we did. 

I think you could make a solid case that islam mirrors christianity's discordant past. Islam needs to be completely divorced from government. Where it dominates it prosecutes a bigotry so fundamental no other voices can be permitted to exist. This truth is visible in all islamic societies and it is pointless debating it. Islam even hates and murders itself, just as christians used to do.

Go ahead; let them both do it. Self-solving problem. Only, you're left with a multitude of tribes of atheist arabs and caucasians who now hate each other, burn each other at the stake, induce penectomy as punishment, honor kill, drink an enemy's blood from someone's skull (Scythians), wifebeat, rape, rob and dream of one day letting their great grandchildren doing the same.

Point? Religion is partly at fault here. The greater fault, however, lies with the mind itself, and the culture that perpetuates this behavior. One day this culture will shift, and transform into something else.  For now, and for the past several millenia, this is the type of aggressive behavior that has dominated much of western Asia.

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


Atheistextremist
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Agree, Kap.

 

I tend to think monotheistic religious doctrines and cultures allow believers to disengage from the native checks of shame and guilt and instead facilitate the doing of harm to infidels/sinners/gentiles on behalf of the one true god.  

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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jcgadfly wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
...

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/hague02.asp#art24

My apologies for any confusion in this matter. A ruse to bring a destructive device into a group of members of the military of the occupying power sounds quite reasonable to me.

If there are people present who are not members of the military, the military cannot claim protection from attack by hiding among civilians.

The good news is, as the IDF and Shin Bet and all but politcians havce said is the violence is being as controlled as best it can be so violence is no longer an excuse to avoid ending the criminal occupation.

Again, a ruse or threat to bring a destructive device into a military unit to see how they'd react is different from actually bringing the device and using it.

It does not describe the kind of ruse. Sneaking into the midst of military personnel to kill them is also a ruse.

BTW: When the IDF takes what is left of their bodies hostage for trade they are temporarily buried in military cemeteries. That hardly suggests the IDF considers them other than combatants.

Quote:
I also understand that Israel has mandatory conscription. That doesn't mean that all Israelis are active military. Just like it doesn't mean that all Palestinians are terrorists because some Palestinians put bombs on things.

As I have posted so many times there is no distinction between on and off duty, active or reserve in any of the treaties. As you KNOW that why do you pretend not to know that? Do you post just to waste bandwidth when you know you are posting nonsense?

Quote:
Your cheerleading for the Palestinians to continue the war instead of working towards other solutions is only helping Israel - I thought you didn't want to do that.

Americans have always been against tyranny and in favor of self-determination. You might read up on 1776 and such to learn what that means for Americans.

Quote:
Newsflash - those soldiers and politicians want to continue the conflict as badly as you do so naturally they would lie. Lovely bunch of people you're siding with.

The conflict ENDS when the Jews leave the occupied territories. ONLY the Jews have the power to end the matter at any time they wish. If the politicians wanted to end it they would simply leave. They could walk back to Israel. It isn't that far and would be healthy.

But you know that.

Again you post to waste bandwidth.

Poor Nony. Butthurt because he doesn't know the conventions he cites. I understand that you want the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians to continue. I mean, what would you do with your pom-poms and your blue and white star of David sweater if they grew up?

How much more than an apology do you think you are going to get? Americans always root for the underdog, the weak, the oppressed. The Palestinians are the oppressed.

Quote:
Sneaking into an enemy camp to kill them is not a ruse - it is an attack. It also does nothing to gain information about the enemy so your boys are still war criminals by your standards.

It is difficult to believe you actually said that. A spy can sneak into a camp and not attack. The ruse is the means of sneaking in.

Quote:
I'm still in favor of ending tyranny on both sides - why do you want it to continue?

There is no meaning to the word tyranny that applies to the victims of the despotic Jews.

Quote:
You also have an interesting double standard. Israel has no civilians in your eyes - just off-duty military.

And reserve and buses as military assets.

Quote:
The Palestinians have no combatants in your eyes - the guys who strap bombs to themselves or attack enemy camps (directly or by infiltration) are all victims. Do you salute your Israeli flag with one hand or both? Or do you have two flags (one for each hand)?

It appears you think if Israelis bring children into combat no one can shoot at them.

It is the obligation of the military to stay away from civilians so as not to bring on unwanted collateral damage on their own civilians.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


A_Nony_Mouse
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Vastet wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
s you KNOW, it an absolute right to attack any member of the military of the occupying country
As you apparently DON'T know, children are not a military, economic, or political target. If hiding amongst children is a crime, then both sides are guilty of it.

Of course children are not the targets. The military people hiding among children are the targets. The children are lawful collateral damage AS ISRAEL SAYS when it kills children.

It is the obligation to stay away from civilians to avoid unwanted collateral damage to their own side. That they hide among civilians makes they responsible for the collateral damage.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


jcgadfly
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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:jcgadfly

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
...

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/hague02.asp#art24

My apologies for any confusion in this matter. A ruse to bring a destructive device into a group of members of the military of the occupying power sounds quite reasonable to me.

If there are people present who are not members of the military, the military cannot claim protection from attack by hiding among civilians.

The good news is, as the IDF and Shin Bet and all but politcians havce said is the violence is being as controlled as best it can be so violence is no longer an excuse to avoid ending the criminal occupation.

Again, a ruse or threat to bring a destructive device into a military unit to see how they'd react is different from actually bringing the device and using it.

It does not describe the kind of ruse. Sneaking into the midst of military personnel to kill them is also a ruse.

BTW: When the IDF takes what is left of their bodies hostage for trade they are temporarily buried in military cemeteries. That hardly suggests the IDF considers them other than combatants.

Quote:
I also understand that Israel has mandatory conscription. That doesn't mean that all Israelis are active military. Just like it doesn't mean that all Palestinians are terrorists because some Palestinians put bombs on things.

As I have posted so many times there is no distinction between on and off duty, active or reserve in any of the treaties. As you KNOW that why do you pretend not to know that? Do you post just to waste bandwidth when you know you are posting nonsense?

Quote:
Your cheerleading for the Palestinians to continue the war instead of working towards other solutions is only helping Israel - I thought you didn't want to do that.

Americans have always been against tyranny and in favor of self-determination. You might read up on 1776 and such to learn what that means for Americans.

Quote:
Newsflash - those soldiers and politicians want to continue the conflict as badly as you do so naturally they would lie. Lovely bunch of people you're siding with.

The conflict ENDS when the Jews leave the occupied territories. ONLY the Jews have the power to end the matter at any time they wish. If the politicians wanted to end it they would simply leave. They could walk back to Israel. It isn't that far and would be healthy.

But you know that.

Again you post to waste bandwidth.

Poor Nony. Butthurt because he doesn't know the conventions he cites. I understand that you want the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians to continue. I mean, what would you do with your pom-poms and your blue and white star of David sweater if they grew up?

How much more than an apology do you think you are going to get? Americans always root for the underdog, the weak, the oppressed. The Palestinians are the oppressed.

Quote:
Sneaking into an enemy camp to kill them is not a ruse - it is an attack. It also does nothing to gain information about the enemy so your boys are still war criminals by your standards.

It is difficult to believe you actually said that. A spy can sneak into a camp and not attack. The ruse is the means of sneaking in.

Quote:
I'm still in favor of ending tyranny on both sides - why do you want it to continue?

There is no meaning to the word tyranny that applies to the victims of the despotic Jews.

Quote:
You also have an interesting double standard. Israel has no civilians in your eyes - just off-duty military.

And reserve and buses as military assets.

Quote:
The Palestinians have no combatants in your eyes - the guys who strap bombs to themselves or attack enemy camps (directly or by infiltration) are all victims. Do you salute your Israeli flag with one hand or both? Or do you have two flags (one for each hand)?

It appears you think if Israelis bring children into combat no one can shoot at them.

It is the obligation of the military to stay away from civilians so as not to bring on unwanted collateral damage on their own civilians.

 

I know you're a big fan of those who strap things to themselves but why did you have to use your goalposts?

You wrote "Sneaking into the midst of military personnel to kill them is also a ruse."

A sneak attack is not a ruse to get information about your enemy. That is different from the "spying" you now describe.

You can't admit that the conventions you cite makes both sides war criminals (a position I've held from the beginning while you flop about like a hooked fish).

And you still insist that Israel has no civilian population while every Palestinian that straps a bomb to himself is a "helpless victim". Why don't you like the truth?

If you don't want Israeli military to surround themselves with children by being in the cities that your boys decide to attack, shouldn't your boys avoid having children around their combatants as well?

Keep flying that double standard - you amuse me.

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Brian37
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jcgadfly wrote:A_Nony_Mouse

jcgadfly wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
...

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/hague02.asp#art24

My apologies for any confusion in this matter. A ruse to bring a destructive device into a group of members of the military of the occupying power sounds quite reasonable to me.

If there are people present who are not members of the military, the military cannot claim protection from attack by hiding among civilians.

The good news is, as the IDF and Shin Bet and all but politcians havce said is the violence is being as controlled as best it can be so violence is no longer an excuse to avoid ending the criminal occupation.

Again, a ruse or threat to bring a destructive device into a military unit to see how they'd react is different from actually bringing the device and using it.

It does not describe the kind of ruse. Sneaking into the midst of military personnel to kill them is also a ruse.

BTW: When the IDF takes what is left of their bodies hostage for trade they are temporarily buried in military cemeteries. That hardly suggests the IDF considers them other than combatants.

Quote:
I also understand that Israel has mandatory conscription. That doesn't mean that all Israelis are active military. Just like it doesn't mean that all Palestinians are terrorists because some Palestinians put bombs on things.

As I have posted so many times there is no distinction between on and off duty, active or reserve in any of the treaties. As you KNOW that why do you pretend not to know that? Do you post just to waste bandwidth when you know you are posting nonsense?

Quote:
Your cheerleading for the Palestinians to continue the war instead of working towards other solutions is only helping Israel - I thought you didn't want to do that.

Americans have always been against tyranny and in favor of self-determination. You might read up on 1776 and such to learn what that means for Americans.

Quote:
Newsflash - those soldiers and politicians want to continue the conflict as badly as you do so naturally they would lie. Lovely bunch of people you're siding with.

The conflict ENDS when the Jews leave the occupied territories. ONLY the Jews have the power to end the matter at any time they wish. If the politicians wanted to end it they would simply leave. They could walk back to Israel. It isn't that far and would be healthy.

But you know that.

Again you post to waste bandwidth.

Poor Nony. Butthurt because he doesn't know the conventions he cites. I understand that you want the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians to continue. I mean, what would you do with your pom-poms and your blue and white star of David sweater if they grew up?

How much more than an apology do you think you are going to get? Americans always root for the underdog, the weak, the oppressed. The Palestinians are the oppressed.

Quote:
Sneaking into an enemy camp to kill them is not a ruse - it is an attack. It also does nothing to gain information about the enemy so your boys are still war criminals by your standards.

It is difficult to believe you actually said that. A spy can sneak into a camp and not attack. The ruse is the means of sneaking in.

Quote:
I'm still in favor of ending tyranny on both sides - why do you want it to continue?

There is no meaning to the word tyranny that applies to the victims of the despotic Jews.

Quote:
You also have an interesting double standard. Israel has no civilians in your eyes - just off-duty military.

And reserve and buses as military assets.

Quote:
The Palestinians have no combatants in your eyes - the guys who strap bombs to themselves or attack enemy camps (directly or by infiltration) are all victims. Do you salute your Israeli flag with one hand or both? Or do you have two flags (one for each hand)?

It appears you think if Israelis bring children into combat no one can shoot at them.

It is the obligation of the military to stay away from civilians so as not to bring on unwanted collateral damage on their own civilians.

 

I know you're a big fan of those who strap things to themselves but why did you have to use your goalposts?

You wrote "Sneaking into the midst of military personnel to kill them is also a ruse."

A sneak attack is not a ruse to get information about your enemy. That is different from the "spying" you now describe.

You can't admit that the conventions you cite makes both sides war criminals (a position I've held from the beginning while you flop about like a hooked fish).

And you still insist that Israel has no civilian population while every Palestinian that straps a bomb to himself is a "helpless victim". Why don't you like the truth?

If you don't want Israeli military to surround themselves with children by being in the cities that your boys decide to attack, shouldn't your boys avoid having children around their combatants as well?

Keep flying that double standard - you amuse me.

 

Here is the painfully idiotic thing about this bullshit conflict. It simply amounts to "It's ok when I do it, but not when they do it". BOTH SIDE PULL THIS CRAP

It really is the same fucking crap Beyond tries to use in justifying the class monopoly on our politics. He is fine when he wins, but when the "peasants" speak out, he flips out.

If he would ONLY accept that life is not either or, or black or white, he really COULD find the problem solvers on both sides. But since he is stuck on the same "My shit don't stink" crap Israel is stuck on,  both sides seem to like butt fucking each other while claiming to hate it.

Whitie bad, niggers bad, Muslims bad, Jews bad, atheists bad, gays bad.

And what gets lost in this tribal crap, is that life has never been, in our species history, all bad or all good. Jews and Muslims in this conflict are nuts COLLECTIVELY, not as individuals, but nuts in the fact that BOTH sides turn to the people that continue this crap. BOTH SIDES seem to vote or gravitate against their own self interest.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Brian37
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Quote:I have no interest in

Quote:
I have no interest in any type of totaliarian government.

REALLY? I really want to believe you, I do. 

The litmus test then is, if you win this battle, how would the Jews left over fit in to your government? If they all should be treated like shit, then how is that different than you accusing Israel treating you like shit?

Won't wash. YOU and your "enemies" are just a couple of childish brats butt fucking each other. I'd offer you both lube, but I think both sides are fully stocked.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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jcgadfly wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

...

Quote:
The Palestinians have no combatants in your eyes - the guys who strap bombs to themselves or attack enemy camps (directly or by infiltration) are all victims. Do you salute your Israeli flag with one hand or both? Or do you have two flags (one for each hand)?

It appears you think if Israelis bring children into combat no one can shoot at them.

It is the obligation of the military to stay away from civilians so as not to bring on unwanted collateral damage on their own civilians.

I know you're a big fan of those who strap things to themselves but why did you have to use your goalposts?

You wrote "Sneaking into the midst of military personnel to kill them is also a ruse."

A sneak attack is not a ruse to get information about your enemy. That is different from the "spying" you now describe.

If you go to google and enter def:ruse it will give you the correct definition. After you have learned what the word means we can continue this discussion.

Quote:
You can't admit that the conventions you cite makes both sides war criminals (a position I've held from the beginning while you flop about like a hooked fish).

After you have learned the meaning of the word ruse you will realize that in a lawful war it is an approved tactic for both sides. No sides military can hide among civilians and blame anyone but themselves for the deaths of their own civilians.

Quote:
And you still insist that Israel has no civilian population while every Palestinian that straps a bomb to himself is a "helpless victim". Why don't you like the truth?

Why is it the only way you can make a point is to claim I said something I have not said? Clearly you have read me say the IDF cannot hide among Israeli civilians and then blame those who attack them for civilians losses.

However this is not a war. The IDF is using its military to suppress lawful resistance to the jewish occupation. Because of the occupation the Jews are by definition the war criminals and the Palestinians the lawful resistance even by the rules of war.

Quote:
If you don't want Israeli military to surround themselves with children by being in the cities that your boys decide to attack, shouldn't your boys avoid having children around their combatants as well?

It is not a war but a resistance to criminal occupation. I have only stipulated that even if it were a war the methods of the resistance are lawful.

Quote:
Keep flying that double standard - you amuse me.

If you don't like the rules of war you can always dedicate your life to changing them. In the mean time they are what they are.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


A_Nony_Mouse
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Brian37 wrote:
...

Here is the painfully idiotic thing about this bullshit conflict. It simply amounts to "It's ok when I do it, but not when they do it". BOTH SIDE PULL THIS CRAP

I merely point out the respective roles of the combatants. The Palestinians are the lawful resistance and the Jews are the criminal occupiers. The sides are not equal. There are the war criminals and the victims of war crimes. Your shtetl mentality does not permit to you openly admit that.

Quote:
It really is the same fucking crap Beyond tries to use in justifying the class monopoly on our politics. He is fine when he wins, but when the "peasants" speak out, he flips out.

If he would ONLY accept that life is not either or, or black or white, he really COULD find the problem solvers on both sides. But since he is stuck on the same "My shit don't stink" crap Israel is stuck on,  both sides seem to like butt fucking each other while claiming to hate it.

Have you noticed the nearest thing to a defense of the Jews is to say they are no better than the Palestinians?

Not a single person has objected to the recitation of the fact that the Jews are the war criminals in this case.

There has been plenty of condemnation of the victims of jewish war crimes for their methods.

Quote:
Whitie bad, niggers bad, Muslims bad, Jews bad, atheists bad, gays bad.

And what gets lost in this tribal crap, is that life has never been, in our species history, all bad or all good. Jews and Muslims in this conflict are nuts COLLECTIVELY, not as individuals, but nuts in the fact that BOTH sides turn to the people that continue this crap. BOTH SIDES seem to vote or gravitate against their own self interest.

The issue is NOT Muslims but Palestinians. Trying to make it sound like a religious conflict is a popular jewish tactic.

Read my sig. That is all there is to it. There is nothing else involved. The entire matter is completely summed up in 9 words and 2 sentences. Trying to make it more than that is trying to make the facts look different than they are.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


jcgadfly
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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:jcgadfly

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

...

Quote:
The Palestinians have no combatants in your eyes - the guys who strap bombs to themselves or attack enemy camps (directly or by infiltration) are all victims. Do you salute your Israeli flag with one hand or both? Or do you have two flags (one for each hand)?

It appears you think if Israelis bring children into combat no one can shoot at them.

It is the obligation of the military to stay away from civilians so as not to bring on unwanted collateral damage on their own civilians.

I know you're a big fan of those who strap things to themselves but why did you have to use your goalposts?

You wrote "Sneaking into the midst of military personnel to kill them is also a ruse."

A sneak attack is not a ruse to get information about your enemy. That is different from the "spying" you now describe.

If you go to google and enter def:ruse it will give you the correct definition. After you have learned what the word means we can continue this discussion.

Quote:
You can't admit that the conventions you cite makes both sides war criminals (a position I've held from the beginning while you flop about like a hooked fish).

After you have learned the meaning of the word ruse you will realize that in a lawful war it is an approved tactic for both sides. No sides military can hide among civilians and blame anyone but themselves for the deaths of their own civilians.

Quote:
And you still insist that Israel has no civilian population while every Palestinian that straps a bomb to himself is a "helpless victim". Why don't you like the truth?

Why is it the only way you can make a point is to claim I said something I have not said? Clearly you have read me say the IDF cannot hide among Israeli civilians and then blame those who attack them for civilians losses.

However this is not a war. The IDF is using its military to suppress lawful resistance to the jewish occupation. Because of the occupation the Jews are by definition the war criminals and the Palestinians the lawful resistance even by the rules of war.

Quote:
If you don't want Israeli military to surround themselves with children by being in the cities that your boys decide to attack, shouldn't your boys avoid having children around their combatants as well?

It is not a war but a resistance to criminal occupation. I have only stipulated that even if it were a war the methods of the resistance are lawful.

Quote:
Keep flying that double standard - you amuse me.

If you don't like the rules of war you can always dedicate your life to changing them. In the mean time they are what they are.

 

You lost the citation war you started so now you want to play semantic games.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Brian37
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I don't know if Noony has

I don't know if Noony has answered my direct question.

Lets assume Israel, is the only bad guy in this situtation, and go by Noony's claim.

THE litmus test to tell if the end goal of Palestine would be moral is this.

HOW, Noony, would YOU, yourself, treat the Jews left over under your defeat? I'm not talking about the arrested or their soldiers. I am talking about the citizens left over. IF IF IF IF IF IF you suddenly gained control over the population of Israel, how would YOU treat those Jews who would be under your power?

I'd say the way you talk, you'd treat them as badly as you say Palestinians are treated. AND THAT is why I cannot in good conscious support the CURRENT end goal of Palestine.

WW1 and it's reaction to Germany afterwords was immoral. We left them to rot which allowed Hitler to rise. Now if you suddenly got power over Israel the moral high ground would be to treat them better than they have treated you. Unless you want to set up a pluralistic secular government that is inclusive, I have no choice but to reject any other end goal. Regardless of the crimes Israel has committed your ends do not justify the means. SHOW them that you are willing to treat them better than you have been treated, that WILL go a long way in getting the rest of the world on your side.

Pissing contests are worthless and no one has any moral high ground in such cases. It is up to YOU to think of the future, not of Palestine or Israel but of humanity, because what you both do to each other DOES have an affect on the rest of us.

Until you change your attitude you will NEVER get my support.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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I didn't know where to put

I didn't know where to put this but here seems good enough

www.news24.com wrote:

Gaza - A would-be Palestinian suicide bomber freed by Israel in the prisoner swap for soldier Gilad Shalit told cheering schoolchildren in the Gaza Strip the day after her release on Wednesday she hoped they would follow her example.

"I hope you will walk the same path we took and God willing, we will see some of you as martyrs," Wafa al-Biss told dozens of children who came to her home in the northern Gaza Strip.

Biss was travelling to Beersheba's Soroka hospital for medical treatment in 2005 when Israeli soldiers at the Erez border crossing noticed she was walking strangely. They found 10kg of explosives had been sewn into her underwear.

A member of al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, an offshoot of President Mahmoud Abbas's Fatah party, Biss was sentenced to a 12-year term for planning to blow herself up.

After she spoke, the children cheered and waved Palestinian flags and chanted: "We will give souls and blood to redeem the prisoners. We will give souls and blood for you, Palestine."

Biss said she had planned to blow herself up at the checkpoint but her detonator malfunctioned.

"Unfortunately, the button did not work at the last minute before I was to be martyred," Biss told Reuters.

Return to militancy

She said she had not yet adjusted to her freedom and arose early on Wednesday for prison roll call.

"This morning I woke up in my room, wore my scarf and stood up awaiting the line-up time before I realised I was home and not in jail," she said.

Once she settles back to her routine, Biss said she plans to complete university psychology studies but added that she remained defiant in the face of Israeli warnings to act against those who return to militancy.

"We will pursue our struggle and [Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Nentanyahu] knows that. Arrests will not deter us from our strong battles and confrontation in the face of Zionist arrogance in the land of Palestine," she said.

Biss was one of 477 Palestinians freed by Israel on Tuesday in the first stage of an exchange with Gaza's Hamas Islamist rulers that ended Shalit's five years of captivity.

Another 550 Palestinans will be freed in the second stage later this year.

So is asking kids to blow themselves up justified in the face of oppression? I do notice she no longer plans to do it herself... strange. How could one justify asking kids to blow themselves up? I mean surely that is not the answer even if Israel is basically Hitler. I can only assume there is some logical disconnect going on there where they will "god whiling" that they will one day become martyrs, they have some how built it up as a good thing, a noble thing to kill yourself and kill others with you. One would have thought they would have found a better method than strapping a bomb to there chest and hoping for the best.

 

 

Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
No animal shall wear clothes.
No animal shall sleep in a bed.
No animal shall drink alcohol.
No animal shall kill any other animal.
All animals are equal.


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Bad news for Nony

From original at Jerry Coyne's Why Evolution Is True website, Israel allows formal status as “secular Jew”:


Israel allows formal status as “secular Jew”

I repeat the old joke:

Q: What do you call a Jew who doesn’t believe in God?
A:  A Jew.

I’ve maintained before not only that many people —like myself—consider themselves to be both Jewish and nonbelievers, but also that this nonreligious but cultural status is far more pervasive among Jews than among those of other faiths.

Now that status has been given official recognition by the Israeli government.

As the American Prospect reports:

Yoram Kaniuk has won: The prominent Israeli novelist is now very officially a Jew of no religion.

Hundreds of other Israelis, inspired by his legal victory, want to follow his example and change their religious status to “none” in the country’s Population Registry, while remaining Jews by nationality in the same government database. A new verb has entered Hebrew, lehitkaniuk, to Kaniuk oneself, to legally register an internal divorce of Jewish ethnicity from Jewish religion.

. . . Kaniuk certified the change of his religious status this month, after a Tel Aviv District Court judge overruled bureaucratic objections. The writer gave two reasons for his choice: Because his wife is an American-born Christian, his daughters and his infant grandson are registered as having no religion; and besides, he “has no desire to be part of a ‘Jewish Iran,’” a phrase he did not parse but was apparently aimed at any form of state-linked religion.

The author, Gershom Gorenberg, explains the ambiguous status that nonreligious Jews have endured in the U.S.:

Those who migrated to America arrived in a country that was tolerant of religious division than ethnic separatism, Liebman explained. It’s acceptable in America for Catholics to have parochial schools, but separate schools for Italian Americans would be illegitimate. As a result, American Jews switched categories: They identify as a religion but often behave more as an ethnic group. For many, synagogue membership really means belonging to an ethnic club, and Israel functions as a replacement for the lost “old country” of Eastern Europe.

Nevertheless, anti-Semitism has been a strain in America until recently, and I think still contributes to some of the sentiment involved in the “boycott Israel” movement.  My dad wasn’t allowed to join any fraternity except the two all-Jewish fraternities existing at Penn State when he went there in 1936, and even I was called a “dirty Jew” in junior high school by a group of bullies, which involved me in one of the only two fights I’ve had in my life.

So if being Jewish is not a religion, can it be an ethnicity? I previously thought that “ethnicity” was a genetic term, referring to the group from which one descended, but I find in my dictionary that it means belonging to a “social group that has a common national or cultural tradition.” In that sense I can consider myself an ethnic Jew.

(A side note: a genetic analysis of my Y chromosome did show that my DNA on that bit is completely derived from Eastern European Jews. I had myself tested to determine if my name, “Coyne,” denoted that I was descended from the elite and priestly subgroup of Jews, the kohanim, supposedly descended from Aaron and the only ones allowed to perform special rituals in the synagogue.  When I wrote WEIT, I thought that searching for my own ancestry in this way would be a good metaphor for how evolution represents the ultimate search for ancestry.  I didn’t include that story in the book, but I did find out that I’m a garden-variety Cohan, Cohane, or whatever the name was before it was changed in America. But I am not a kohen.)

Golenberg sees the notion of an official “Jewish state”—however one defines “Jewish”—as invidious and unnecessary:

Real freedom of conscience would require the state to stop registering religious and ethnic identity. Actual separation of synagogue and state would mean abolishing the official rabbinate, enacting civil marriage, and ending government involvement in religious education. Kaniuk himself might have contributed more to understanding the confusions of Jewish identity by writing a novel than by hiring a lawyer. But to be fair, he’s 81 years old and said in his suit that he didn’t feel he had much time left to define himself as he chose.

. . . Israel doesn’t need a Palestinian stamp of approval to be a Jewish state. Nor does it need the registration system that Kaniuk used to voice his anger. It needs only a majority that considers itself Jewish in one not-quite-consistent way or another and that has the freedom to conduct a roiling, constant argument about Jewish culture. If Kaniuk’s suit reminds the rest of the tribe of how messy the issue of Jewish identity is, how unsuited it is for sharp delineations, he will have performed a service.

But do we need a “Jewish state” at all? Surely the official trappings and approval of religion should be abolished in Israel, but, as a cultural Jew, I’m not quite sure about abolishing the idea of a “Jewish state” per se, however one defines “Jew.”

Meanwhile, over in Brooklyn, USA, religiosity still reigns among the Orthodox Jews: Jewish women are forced to sit in the back of a bus run and largely used by Jews, even though it’s under a New York City franchise. That’s both immoral and illegal.  Every time I find pride in being a secular Jew, it’s eroded by something like this.

h/t: Michael

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Brian37
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Tapey wrote:I didn't know

Tapey wrote:

I didn't know where to put this but here seems good enough

www.news24.com wrote:

Gaza - A would-be Palestinian suicide bomber freed by Israel in the prisoner swap for soldier Gilad Shalit told cheering schoolchildren in the Gaza Strip the day after her release on Wednesday she hoped they would follow her example.

"I hope you will walk the same path we took and God willing, we will see some of you as martyrs," Wafa al-Biss told dozens of children who came to her home in the northern Gaza Strip.

Biss was travelling to Beersheba's Soroka hospital for medical treatment in 2005 when Israeli soldiers at the Erez border crossing noticed she was walking strangely. They found 10kg of explosives had been sewn into her underwear.

A member of al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, an offshoot of President Mahmoud Abbas's Fatah party, Biss was sentenced to a 12-year term for planning to blow herself up.

After she spoke, the children cheered and waved Palestinian flags and chanted: "We will give souls and blood to redeem the prisoners. We will give souls and blood for you, Palestine."

Biss said she had planned to blow herself up at the checkpoint but her detonator malfunctioned.

"Unfortunately, the button did not work at the last minute before I was to be martyred," Biss told Reuters.

Return to militancy

She said she had not yet adjusted to her freedom and arose early on Wednesday for prison roll call.

"This morning I woke up in my room, wore my scarf and stood up awaiting the line-up time before I realised I was home and not in jail," she said.

Once she settles back to her routine, Biss said she plans to complete university psychology studies but added that she remained defiant in the face of Israeli warnings to act against those who return to militancy.

"We will pursue our struggle and [Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Nentanyahu] knows that. Arrests will not deter us from our strong battles and confrontation in the face of Zionist arrogance in the land of Palestine," she said.

Biss was one of 477 Palestinians freed by Israel on Tuesday in the first stage of an exchange with Gaza's Hamas Islamist rulers that ended Shalit's five years of captivity.

Another 550 Palestinans will be freed in the second stage later this year.

So is asking kids to blow themselves up justified in the face of oppression? I do notice she no longer plans to do it herself... strange. How could one justify asking kids to blow themselves up? I mean surely that is not the answer even if Israel is basically Hitler. I can only assume there is some logical disconnect going on there where they will "god whiling" that they will one day become martyrs, they have some how built it up as a good thing, a noble thing to kill yourself and kill others with you. One would have thought they would have found a better method than strapping a bomb to there chest and hoping for the best.

 

 

Put two baby pictures next to each other without any labels under them and unless the person looking at them knows where they are from, they would have no labels.

There are no Jewish babies, no Muslim babies, no American babies, no Chinese babies. There are merely parents who sell to the babies what was sold to them.

The kids in Palestine simply react to the harm they see and base it on what society and their parents tell them. The kids in Israel simply grow up reacting to the harm to them and do the same based on what society and their parents sell them. I think the rest of the world which is more detached from it because we are not close to it, have much more opportunity to SHOW the youth on both sides that they do not have to buy what their parents sell them.

The cycle of abuse humans inflict on each other can be reduced through getting to the young first before they get infected with tribalism and blind loyalty.

It would be just like removing a child from a home at the first sign of parental abuse. Get them out early and quickly they will be less likely to grow up to do the same to their children.

 

 

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


A_Nony_Mouse
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Tapey wrote:

I didn't know where to put this but here seems good enough

www.news24.com wrote:

Gaza - A would-be Palestinian suicide bomber freed by Israel in the prisoner swap for soldier Gilad Shalit told cheering schoolchildren in the Gaza Strip the day after her release on Wednesday she hoped they would follow her example.

"I hope you will walk the same path we took and God willing, we will see some of you as martyrs," Wafa al-Biss told dozens of children who came to her home in the northern Gaza Strip.

Biss was travelling to Beersheba's Soroka hospital for medical treatment in 2005 when Israeli soldiers at the Erez border crossing noticed she was walking strangely. They found 10kg of explosives had been sewn into her underwear.

A member of al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, an offshoot of President Mahmoud Abbas's Fatah party, Biss was sentenced to a 12-year term for planning to blow herself up.

After she spoke, the children cheered and waved Palestinian flags and chanted: "We will give souls and blood to redeem the prisoners. We will give souls and blood for you, Palestine."

Biss said she had planned to blow herself up at the checkpoint but her detonator malfunctioned.

"Unfortunately, the button did not work at the last minute before I was to be martyred," Biss told Reuters.

Return to militancy

She said she had not yet adjusted to her freedom and arose early on Wednesday for prison roll call.

"This morning I woke up in my room, wore my scarf and stood up awaiting the line-up time before I realised I was home and not in jail," she said.

Once she settles back to her routine, Biss said she plans to complete university psychology studies but added that she remained defiant in the face of Israeli warnings to act against those who return to militancy.

"We will pursue our struggle and [Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Nentanyahu] knows that. Arrests will not deter us from our strong battles and confrontation in the face of Zionist arrogance in the land of Palestine," she said.

Biss was one of 477 Palestinians freed by Israel on Tuesday in the first stage of an exchange with Gaza's Hamas Islamist rulers that ended Shalit's five years of captivity.

Another 550 Palestinans will be freed in the second stage later this year.

So is asking kids to blow themselves up justified in the face of oppression? I do notice she no longer plans to do it herself... strange. How could one justify asking kids to blow themselves up? I mean surely that is not the answer even if Israel is basically Hitler. I can only assume there is some logical disconnect going on there where they will "god whiling" that they will one day become martyrs, they have some how built it up as a good thing, a noble thing to kill yourself and kill others with you. One would have thought they would have found a better method than strapping a bomb to there chest and hoping for the best.

I considered several ways to reply to this and rejected them for the parenthetical reasons.

* Not bad but it doesn't have the impact of Laslo leading the band in Le Marseilles. (too obscure for this audience)

* The price of freedom is never cheap. (trite)

* The tree of liberty must be watered from to time with the blood of tyrants. (have to look up the correct Jefferson quote)

* When the Cuban revolutionaries were seen to be willing to die for the cause Michael Corleone pulled out of the deal. (too Trekkie)

* Batiste called them terrorists. (they probably don't know who he was)

* Maybe if they blew up their own children too like in the Warsaw ghetto it would be OK. (mentioned it before and this audience thought jewish suicide bombing was a great idea)

* Like at Masada. (they thought that was great too - they only dislike it when done to them)

Therefore I settled on simply

>>> Very jewish of her.

and wait to see who is dumb enough to object and who is smart enough to remain silent.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


A_Nony_Mouse
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jcgadfly wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
...

If you don't like the rules of war you can always dedicate your life to changing them. In the mean time they are what they are.

You lost the citation war you started so now you want to play semantic games.

Now that WE agree the Jews are committing war crimes as I have stated your only avenue is to retroactively legalize those crimes.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Brian37 wrote:

I don't know if Noony has answered my direct question.

Lets assume Israel, is the only bad guy in this situtation, and go by Noony's claim.

THE litmus test to tell if the end goal of Palestine would be moral is this.

HOW, Noony, would YOU, yourself, treat the Jews left over under your defeat? I'm not talking about the arrested or their soldiers. I am talking about the citizens left over. IF IF IF IF IF IF you suddenly gained control over the population of Israel, how would YOU treat those Jews who would be under your power?

I have already answered that.

If a single country then a democracy then let the voters decide.

If your imaginary suddenly Palestinians rule, no worse than the 1948 expulsion the Jews visited upon the Palestinians.

Both I have already stated. Both have been ignored. But now the question has been asked as though never answered.

What has not been answered is how any possible consequence justifies the continuation of jewish war crimes in the occupied territories. I have asked that question many times and not one person have even acknowledged it was asked.

Now that I have answered your somewhat ambiguous question AGAIN would you care to answer why the Jews insist upon conducting the occupation in a manner which is criminal?

If you decline to answer please have the courtesy to say so and give your reasons.

Quote:
I'd say the way you talk, you'd treat them as badly as you say Palestinians are treated. AND THAT is why I cannot in good conscious support the CURRENT end goal of Palestine.

Why would you assme the Palestinians are a criminal as Jews?

Why do you acknowledge jewish crimes in such a backhanded manner?

How does justify the CONTINUATION of Jewish crimes?

Quote:
WW1 and it's reaction to Germany afterwords was immoral. We left them to rot which allowed Hitler to rise. Now if you suddenly got power over Israel the moral high ground would be to treat them better than they have treated you. Unless you want to set up a pluralistic secular government that is inclusive, I have no choice but to reject any other end goal. Regardless of the crimes Israel has committed your ends do not justify the means. SHOW them that you are willing to treat them better than you have been treated, that WILL go a long way in getting the rest of the world on your side.

How do you get from that to the continuation of the criminal aspects of the occupation? How does that preclude ENDING the elements of the occupation which make it criminal?

Again, if you decline to answer please say so and give your reasons.

Quote:
Pissing contests are worthless and no one has any moral high ground in such cases. It is up to YOU to think of the future, not of Palestine or Israel but of humanity, because what you both do to each other DOES have an affect on the rest of us.

Until you change your attitude you will NEVER get my support.

The innocent victim always has the moral high ground. There are lawful ways to conduct an occupation. Israel is not conducting a lawful occupation.

As for your support, I never expect a jew to respond rationally to when Israel is involved.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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natural wrote:

From original at Jerry Coyne's Why Evolution Is True website, Israel allows formal status as “secular Jew”:


Israel allows formal status as “secular Jew”

I repeat the old joke:

Q: What do you call a Jew who doesn’t believe in God?
A:  A Jew.

...

 

Bad news for me after "only" 63 years of total theocracy? 63 years of NO Israeli nationality expect on external passports? 63 years of internal passports which, like in Nazi Germany still have a big J stamp for Jew? How many more years before noting this does not affect the internal passports? Speaking of the ancient notion of internal passports there is no intention of changing the internal designation.

If I were you I would not get too excited as the courts are rather toothless in Israel -- no separation of powers -- and have no power of contempt of court nor means of enforcing their decisions nor giving them the power of precedent. And of course I realize you are only talking about something that benefits fake Jews. You know, members of the Fraternal Order of Jews.

All that said one notes a few other things are still lacking in addition to an independent judiciary. There is no secular marriage or divorce. Equal rights as in the end of segregation is also lacking. Equal opportunity protections are absent. Equal housing protections are not only absent, the government builds segregated housing. Discrimination against non-jewish religious rights rivalling Saudi while protecting primitive jewish rights also rivalling Saudi, the rivalry being in their primitiveness. Above all perhaps is the total absence of any protected civil rights for all citizens. It is an apartheid society. Oddly Jews are proud of it. Is it any wonder the last ally of apartheid South Africa was Israel?

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Brian37 wrote:

Put two baby pictures next to each other without any labels under them and unless the person looking at them knows where they are from, they would have no labels.

There are no Jewish babies, no Muslim babies, no American babies, no Chinese babies. There are merely parents who sell to the babies what was sold to them.

The kids in Palestine simply react to the harm they see and base it on what society and their parents tell them. The kids in Israel simply grow up reacting to the harm to them and do the same based on what society and their parents sell them. I think the rest of the world which is more detached from it because we are not close to it, have much more opportunity to SHOW the youth on both sides that they do not have to buy what their parents sell them.

The cycle of abuse humans inflict on each other can be reduced through getting to the young first before they get infected with tribalism and blind loyalty.

It would be just like removing a child from a home at the first sign of parental abuse. Get them out early and quickly they will be less likely to grow up to do the same to their children.

We can also take a random sampling of 1000 babies. In doing so we discover the per capita death rate for the "jewish" is only about 1% of those who died from Jewish actions as compared to non-Jewish actions. Given this kind of kill ratio one has to ask if a dead jewish infant is other than a PR exercise, a good use for a dead piece of kosher meat.

One has to wonder at your holodile, excuse, crocodile tears over the use of an infant metaphor which damns your co-religionists as it begs the question as to how many they have murdered.

It is better to observe the Palestinians do not use their dead infants for propaganda purposes whereas Jews race to the cameras for global coverage -- and they weep and wail on cue so crocodilian the display.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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natural wrote:

From original at Jerry Coyne's Why Evolution Is True website, Israel allows formal status as “secular Jew”:


Israel allows formal status as “secular Jew”

I repeat the old joke:

Q: What do you call a Jew who doesn’t believe in God?
A:  A Jew.

I’ve maintained before not only that many people —like myself—consider themselves to be both Jewish and nonbelievers, but also that this nonreligious but cultural status is far more pervasive among Jews than among those of other faiths.

It is agreed there is a Fraternal Order of Jews and I realize some people take their lodges seriously but pardon if the rest of us do not see your lodge hat any different from Ralph Cramden's lodge hat.

Quote:
Now that status has been given official recognition by the Israeli government.

As the American Prospect reports:

Yoram Kaniuk has won: The prominent Israeli novelist is now very officially a Jew of no religion.

Hundreds of other Israelis, inspired by his legal victory, want to follow his example and change their religious status to “none” in the country’s Population Registry, while remaining Jews by nationality in the same government database. A new verb has entered Hebrew, lehitkaniuk, to Kaniuk oneself, to legally register an internal divorce of Jewish ethnicity from Jewish religion.

. . . Kaniuk certified the change of his religious status this month, after a Tel Aviv District Court judge overruled bureaucratic objections. The writer gave two reasons for his choice: Because his wife is an American-born Christian, his daughters and his infant grandson are registered as having no religion; and besides, he “has no desire to be part of a ‘Jewish Iran,’” a phrase he did not parse but was apparently aimed at any form of state-linked religion.

The author, Gershom Gorenberg, explains the ambiguous status that nonreligious Jews have endured in the U.S.:

Those who migrated to America arrived in a country that was tolerant of religious division than ethnic separatism, Liebman explained. It’s acceptable in America for Catholics to have parochial schools, but separate schools for Italian Americans would be illegitimate. As a result, American Jews switched categories: They identify as a religion but often behave more as an ethnic group. For many, synagogue membership really means belonging to an ethnic club, and Israel functions as a replacement for the lost “old country” of Eastern Europe.

Nevertheless, anti-Semitism has been a strain in America until recently,

Essentially non-existent at any time in history. Groucho Marx remarked on a country club that would have him. The Irish asked what is a country club. The snickers also extend to the "poor us" whining. There hardly were any Jews in the US until the 1890s immigration wave. They spent the mandatory first generation in the barrel time just like all immigrant populations have done. By the third generation the new immigrant problems were largely gone just as for the Italians and the Irish and the rest. For the Jews it was no different than any other group but it is told in the context of a millennia old narrative of hostility. Considering how many times they moved around they should have collected a lot of newbie issues just as in the US.

Quote:
and I think still contributes to some of the sentiment involved in the “boycott Israel” movement.  My dad wasn’t allowed to join any fraternity except the two all-Jewish fraternities existing at Penn State when he went there in 1936, and even I was called a “dirty Jew” in junior high school by a group of bullies, which involved me in one of the only two fights I’ve had in my life.

Denial is a river in Israel. Boycott Israel has the exact same basis as the movement to boycott South Africa and with even greater justification. In South Africa the bantustans were made models of modernity in an attempt to deflect criticism. In the occupied territories they are held in primitive ghetto conditions.

Quote:
So if being Jewish is not a religion, can it be an ethnicity?

Been there, done that. The answer is no.

Quote:
I previously thought that “ethnicity” was a genetic term, referring to the group from which one descended, but I find in my dictionary that it means belonging to a “social group that has a common national or cultural tradition.” In that sense I can consider myself an ethnic Jew.

We have already established there is no single ethnic group which can be described as jewish. (They always come back to repeating the same nonsense as though it had never been refuted.) Or are you telling me you share the cultural traditions of jewish Arabs?

Quote:
(A side note: a genetic analysis of my Y chromosome did show that my DNA on that bit is completely derived from Eastern European Jews. I had myself tested to determine if my name, “Coyne,” denoted that I was descended from the elite and priestly subgroup of Jews, the kohanim, supposedly descended from Aaron and the only ones allowed to perform special rituals in the synagogue.

Imported from Babylon by the Khazars to teach the rituals and taboos to the new, forced converts. However all it shows is the Chohenim were not native to Palestine when they started running the priest scam on the local yokels. [Note how this Yahweh cult has only been spread by the use of force.]

Quote:
When I wrote WEIT, I thought that searching for my own ancestry in this way would be a good metaphor for how evolution represents the ultimate search for ancestry.  I didn’t include that story in the book, but I did find out that I’m a garden-variety Cohan, Cohane, or whatever the name was before it was changed in America. But I am not a kohen.)

Golenberg sees the notion of an official “Jewish state”—however one defines “Jewish”—as invidious and unnecessary:

Real freedom of conscience would require the state to stop registering religious and ethnic identity. Actual separation of synagogue and state would mean abolishing the official rabbinate, enacting civil marriage, and ending government involvement in religious education. Kaniuk himself might have contributed more to understanding the confusions of Jewish identity by writing a novel than by hiring a lawyer. But to be fair, he’s 81 years old and said in his suit that he didn’t feel he had much time left to define himself as he chose.

. . . Israel doesn’t need a Palestinian stamp of approval to be a Jewish state. Nor does it need the registration system that Kaniuk used to voice his anger. It needs only a majority that considers itself Jewish in one not-quite-consistent way or another and that has the freedom to conduct a roiling, constant argument about Jewish culture. If Kaniuk’s suit reminds the rest of the tribe of how messy the issue of Jewish identity is, how unsuited it is for sharp delineations, he will have performed a service.

States must do things incompatible with religion. A Jewish state damns the religion by its national actions. No one is required to make excuses for or to "understand" the difference when the state says there is no difference.

Quote:
But do we need a “Jewish state” at all? Surely the official trappings and approval of religion should be abolished in Israel, but, as a cultural Jew, I’m not quite sure about abolishing the idea of a “Jewish state” per se, however one defines “Jew.”

To which of the many jewish cultureS you established exist by your quote do you consider yourself to belong?

Nothing connects the different cultures but the religion.

Absent the religion the Ashkenazi culture is Slavic.

Quote:
Meanwhile, over in Brooklyn, USA, religiosity still reigns among the Orthodox Jews: Jewish women are forced to sit in the back of a bus

Just like in Israel but so far in NYC none have been beaten for refusing to do so.

Quote:
run and largely used by Jews, even though it’s under a New York City franchise. That’s both immoral and illegal.  Every time I find pride in being a secular Jew, it’s eroded by something like this.

Which is also unlike Israel where the state encourages it while the toothless courts take years to rule against it and its rulings are ignored by the ignorant peasants.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:jcgadfly

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
...

If you don't like the rules of war you can always dedicate your life to changing them. In the mean time they are what they are.

You lost the citation war you started so now you want to play semantic games.

Now that WE agree the Jews are committing war crimes as I have stated your only avenue is to retroactively legalize those crimes.

You mean the way you wish to for the Palestinians? You forget that they violated those conventions also. Do we have to absolve one group of criminals because you like them?

WE apparently agree that the Palestinians are committing war crimes as well.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


A_Nony_Mouse
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jcgadfly wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
jcgadfly wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
...

If you don't like the rules of war you can always dedicate your life to changing them. In the mean time they are what they are.

You lost the citation war you started so now you want to play semantic games.

Now that WE agree the Jews are committing war crimes as I have stated your only avenue is to retroactively legalize those crimes.

You mean the way you wish to for the Palestinians? You forget that they violated those conventions also. Do we have to absolve one group of criminals because you like them?

WE apparently agree that the Palestinians are committing war crimes as well.

Perhaps some day you will be so kind as to describe which crimes of occupation the Palestinians are committing.

You are obviously incapable of understanding the difference between a war and resistance to criminal occupation. Because of that mental impairment or defect you are incapable of conceptualizing a description of what you think you are raving about.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
I have no interest in any type of totaliarian government.

REALLY? I really want to believe you, I do.

No you don't. You think you can bring up Hilter as a show stopper by playing on the near total ignorance of the facts due to the efforts for Orwell and his ilk.

Quote:
The litmus test then is, if you win this battle, how would the Jews left over fit in to your government? If they all should be treated like shit, then how is that different than you accusing Israel treating you like shit?

It is difficult to imagine Jews would want to become citizens of Palestine. One imagines they would be treated at least as well as non-Jews in Israel.

Quote:
Won't wash. YOU and your "enemies" are just a couple of childish brats butt fucking each other. I'd offer you both lube, but I think both sides are fully stocked.

Is there really a need for such homophobic allusions? You could rather take these posts as a  learning exercise in gaining good writing skills.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


Tapey
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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:jcgadfly

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
jcgadfly wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
...

If you don't like the rules of war you can always dedicate your life to changing them. In the mean time they are what they are.

You lost the citation war you started so now you want to play semantic games.

Now that WE agree the Jews are committing war crimes as I have stated your only avenue is to retroactively legalize those crimes.

You mean the way you wish to for the Palestinians? You forget that they violated those conventions also. Do we have to absolve one group of criminals because you like them?

WE apparently agree that the Palestinians are committing war crimes as well.

Perhaps some day you will be so kind as to describe which crimes of occupation the Palestinians are committing.

You are obviously incapable of understanding the difference between a war and resistance to criminal occupation. Because of that mental impairment or defect you are incapable of conceptualizing a description of what you think you are raving about.

 

The entire world is under criminal occupation. I doubt there is a place on earth where some people have not been displaced off some land and other people have settle there.  It is just a matter of going back far enough in most cases.

I do wonder why you use population groups as the measure though. Am I a criminal occupier living in Africa? I live in South Africa, Kwa Zulu Natal to be more precise. I am white, white people displaced black people off the land without compensation. So I am a criminal occupier? It does seem that why doesn't it? I mean nevermind the fact that my family arrived here after Apartheid ended, My parents still purchased land from criminal occupiers and as such became criminal occupiers by living on land once stolen (As stolen as if they had moved to Israel), so by extention, I as there son become a criminal occupier because my parents bought some land that once upon a time was taken away from someone (who Is now dead). At what point does this all become a little silly? Will my children be criminal occupiers, what If I marry a african lady, will they be half criminal occupier? What if I sell the land at a profit and move to England (Where my family is originally from). Will I be hording stolen money? At what point would you say "Fuck it" resist on all this land business? Or is Israel the on place you care about?

 

I think the comparasion between the countries is sound, I am not clued up about how israel came into existance but I think I got the just of it right, forced off the land with no compenstation? This post is half in jest, I do think Israel should be scrapped, but I am interested when would you just say "fuck it" this issue is far to complicated t just say them bad them good, bad GTFO.

 

Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
No animal shall wear clothes.
No animal shall sleep in a bed.
No animal shall drink alcohol.
No animal shall kill any other animal.
All animals are equal.


jcgadfly
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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:jcgadfly

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
jcgadfly wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
...

If you don't like the rules of war you can always dedicate your life to changing them. In the mean time they are what they are.

You lost the citation war you started so now you want to play semantic games.

Now that WE agree the Jews are committing war crimes as I have stated your only avenue is to retroactively legalize those crimes.

You mean the way you wish to for the Palestinians? You forget that they violated those conventions also. Do we have to absolve one group of criminals because you like them?

WE apparently agree that the Palestinians are committing war crimes as well.

Perhaps some day you will be so kind as to describe which crimes of occupation the Palestinians are committing.

You are obviously incapable of understanding the difference between a war and resistance to criminal occupation. Because of that mental impairment or defect you are incapable of conceptualizing a description of what you think you are raving about.

 

Why do you keep strappjng your goalposts on your back?

The conventions you cited concern war crimes - we agree both sides are committing them.

You just can't seem to handle that you have been defeated by your own words. There is no magic exception to the committing of war crimes. WE know this.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Brian37
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jcgadfly wrote:A_Nony_Mouse

jcgadfly wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
jcgadfly wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
...

If you don't like the rules of war you can always dedicate your life to changing them. In the mean time they are what they are.

You lost the citation war you started so now you want to play semantic games.

Now that WE agree the Jews are committing war crimes as I have stated your only avenue is to retroactively legalize those crimes.

You mean the way you wish to for the Palestinians? You forget that they violated those conventions also. Do we have to absolve one group of criminals because you like them?

WE apparently agree that the Palestinians are committing war crimes as well.

Perhaps some day you will be so kind as to describe which crimes of occupation the Palestinians are committing.

You are obviously incapable of understanding the difference between a war and resistance to criminal occupation. Because of that mental impairment or defect you are incapable of conceptualizing a description of what you think you are raving about.

 

Why do you keep strappjng your goalposts on your back?

The conventions you cited concern war crimes - we agree both sides are committing them.

You just can't seem to handle that you have been defeated by your own words. There is no magic exception to the committing of war crimes. WE know this.

He, like Jews and Palestinians, are too simplistic in black and white thinking. They both think that if they can just punch the other guy harder, then the other side will submit. What IS happening in reality is the loss of compassion to the delusional alpha male mentality of both sides.

"If I cant have you no one can" Noony simply cant see that he is no different than those he fights.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Brian37
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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:Brian37

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
I have no interest in any type of totaliarian government.

REALLY? I really want to believe you, I do.

No you don't. You think you can bring up Hilter as a show stopper by playing on the near total ignorance of the facts due to the efforts for Orwell and his ilk.

Quote:
The litmus test then is, if you win this battle, how would the Jews left over fit in to your government? If they all should be treated like shit, then how is that different than you accusing Israel treating you like shit?

It is difficult to imagine Jews would want to become citizens of Palestine. One imagines they would be treated at least as well as non-Jews in Israel.

Quote:
Won't wash. YOU and your "enemies" are just a couple of childish brats butt fucking each other. I'd offer you both lube, but I think both sides are fully stocked.

Is there really a need for such homophobic allusions? You could rather take these posts as a  learning exercise in gaining good writing skills.

 

Really? Out of all the bullshit cop out dodges I can think of.

Now it is a "homophobic issue"

Ok, so if Palestine and Israel had a meat smoker as their  barter baron, this love fest would not be happening?

The peace between the too is no more sexual than it is religious.

Peace requires compassion, debate and protection of dissent.

The Jews you want to kill on sight have as much compassion for you as you do for them. This is problem solving like Galileo's Achemy explains gravity. You are simply as ignorant as those you accuse of being ignorant.

If what was between someone's legs determined dominance, then John Holmes should be God.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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Brian37 wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
I have no interest in any type of totaliarian government.

REALLY? I really want to believe you, I do.

No you don't. You think you can bring up Hilter as a show stopper by playing on the near total ignorance of the facts due to the efforts for Orwell and his ilk.

Quote:
The litmus test then is, if you win this battle, how would the Jews left over fit in to your government? If they all should be treated like shit, then how is that different than you accusing Israel treating you like shit?

It is difficult to imagine Jews would want to become citizens of Palestine. One imagines they would be treated at least as well as non-Jews in Israel.

Quote:
Won't wash. YOU and your "enemies" are just a couple of childish brats butt fucking each other. I'd offer you both lube, but I think both sides are fully stocked.

Is there really a need for such homophobic allusions? You could rather take these posts as a  learning exercise in gaining good writing skills.

Really? Out of all the bullshit cop out dodges I can think of.

Now it is a "homophobic issue"

It is not my responsibility to correct your ignorance of the meaning of the word allusion.

Quote:
Ok, so if Palestine and Israel had a meat smoker as their  barter baron, this love fest would not be happening?

The peace between the too is no more sexual than it is religious.

Peace requires compassion, debate and protection of dissent.

The Jews you want to kill on sight have as much compassion for you as you do for them. This is problem solving like Galileo's Achemy explains gravity. You are simply as ignorant as those you accuse of being ignorant.

If what was between someone's legs determined dominance, then John Holmes should be God.

As to cop out, what does the answer to any of this have to do with the on-going criminal occupation? Please be specific in your response. If you decline to answer please have the courtesy to say you will not answer and give the reasons why you will not answer.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:Vastet

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Vastet wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
s you KNOW, it an absolute right to attack any member of the military of the occupying country
As you apparently DON'T know, children are not a military, economic, or political target. If hiding amongst children is a crime, then both sides are guilty of it.

Of course children are not the targets. The military people hiding among children are the targets. The children are lawful collateral damage AS ISRAEL SAYS when it kills children.

It is the obligation to stay away from civilians to avoid unwanted collateral damage to their own side. That they hide among civilians makes they responsible for the collateral damage.

 

And so the Palestinians build military bases in operational and full hospitals. BOTH SIDES ARE GUILTY.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:
The thread topic is France.

In the future also please move any post which includes words to the effect "as I keep telling Nony in another thread" which then goes to to try to remake the argument which I have refuted in the other thread. I do reserve the right to respond to end-runs around the topic system to win the same debate on another subject. If one desires a level playing field with unbiased moderation this is a reasonable request. There are two such messages for you to find and move to the same thread as mine were moved to.
 

I'll keep an eye out for them and upon finding reply again in that save forum so you can easily move both to the other forum.

Just trying to help.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


A_Nony_Mouse
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Brian37 wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
Watcher wrote:
ZuS wrote:
Look, dude, let's forget the avatar for a while. Yea, religion is a bullshit story, but so is the islamic takeover of the world.

 I agree.   The one topic I am least logical about is Islam.   Burn them all.   They will never reason with non-muslims.   Burn their bodies to the ground.

You make Hitler look like a moderate, a liberal even.

Wow, for someone who  calls me a Jew as a slur, and for someone who equates some support of Israel to total support of Israel "Izziehugers" I find this laughable.

It would fall on def ears(yours) to agree with you that that comment was way out of line.

Hitler in the propaganda sense of course. One can list certainly personality traits which are more common in liberals than conservatives. For example, anti-smoking, tea-totaller, vegetarian, animal rights advocate, universal health care, pro minimum wage and maximum hours per week, pro union, all of which Hitler was. He was also a staunch advocate of the rights of people of German descent in other countries making a human rights advocate albeit a limited one.

So yes, he really was a liberal by his personal and his domestic political policies. Yes, I know they burned books but after the war the Allies conducted the greatest book burning in human history so even there he was a piker.

OTOH we have here a man talking about the mas extermination of 1,200,000,000 people majority of whom have no connection with "arabs" by geography, descent or culture. So in again in comparison to the geopoltiical bugaboo you can divide that number by the magic number and see he is 200 times worse.

So what? you ask. He is from Texas. Look what kind of people they elect. Who knows what he might be when he grows up.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


A_Nony_Mouse
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Watcher wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

One cannot have read the posts of Watcher for long without realizing he is an intolerant racist bigot of either the Christian redneck variety or the Jewish strain. It drips from every post. The hatred of religion is not atheist but directed towards only one, in fact the one that invented monotheism. There is no simple declarative sentence in all the world history of religion prior to "there is no god but God" in Islam. This is not to say I think a Swiss army knife god is better than specialist gods having owned several Swiss army knives I know they are shit.

Personal vendetta aimed against your nemesis that refuses to tolerate your intense, all-consuming hatred of Jews.   So suck a Muslim dick.  Oh, wait.   You never stopped.

Can you explain why intolerance of tyranny is wrong when Jews are the tyrants? Can you explain why intolerance of despotic rule is wrong when Jews are the despots? Can you explain why intolerance of a foreign military dictatorship is wrong when Jews are the military dictators?


I await your explanation. I am certain it will be both schoarly and concise.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


A_Nony_Mouse
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Watcher wrote:
ZuS wrote:

Look, dude, let's forget the avatar for a while. Yea, religion is a bullshit story, but so is the islamic takeover of the world.

 I agree.   The one topic I am least logical about is Islam.   Burn them all.   They will never reason with non-muslims.   Burn their bodies to the ground.

You make Hitler look like a moderate, a liberal even.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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This comment has been moved here.


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Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
in fact the one that invented monotheism.

Actually I believe that Akonaton(sp) was the first ruler to attempt to make Ra the one true god. The Egyptian population at the time did not find it popular and even attempted to rid the monuments he made during his time of this idea after he died.

And Zoroaster is also much older than the Hebrews.

Both of those ideas are history channel quality drek. There is NO statement of monotheism in either case. In the former he simply abandoned his obligations to the other gods. That is what all the archaeological evidence indicates. Zoroaster is only credibly 6th c. BC. Although that makes it older than Judaism by some four centuries The Lord of Light comes from an elder god and the Lord of Dark is essentially his equal. I am aware the popular descriptions all talk about monotheism and its followers do nothing to correct it as it increases their acceptability.

In any event no matter how you wish to view either case the absence the very simple statement to the effect "there is only one god" is not to be found in either. And it it not found in Judaism or Christianity until after the rise of Islam. But I could be in error. If you know of such a clear which can be dated prior to Islam please give me a URL.

Much of my research into these matters has been simply realizing what it not said, things that are believed to be true without basis in physical evidence. I have looked for such statements. The early Christian writings on true and false gods read well in English save that the originals words were in the sense of true and false love or true and false patriotism. When it came to a god, not a fickle one like the other pantheons.

Quote:
Ideas are never "invented" but morph from prior motifs.

If you believe that applies in this case then certainly you can give me some examples of those prior motifs. I can't think of a one.

Quote:
"Deities" have always been around as claims in human history. Changing details, powers or names, and writing books does not change that there were always people before that they competed with. Some continue, all change, and most die  over a changing population.

I don't much grounds for morphing there.

Quote:
2,000 years from now it would not surprise me if the god/s of Abraham morph into something else, or die and get treated like the Egyptian gods. We even have a few nuts today that worship "The Force" from Star Wars as if it were real.

A Jedi does not worship the force. A Jedi raises the issue when asked for his religion so as to levy a fee or tax for the support of their religion's institutions.

Quote:
Myths come and go and grow or fail for the same reason a soda or beer company grows or fails. Marketing and competition.

Mohamed faced a problem which is well expressed elsewhere. Each tribe had its own god. In fact 365 are reported for some reason as it does not make sense there were exactly that many tribes. (In fact they were "un"graven stones as in the condemnation of graven images. The Emperor Gabelia brought his stone to Rome for his brief tour of duty there.) It was a major source of on-going conflicts. The choice was picking one of the 365 and being wiped out by 364 tribes or an an entirely new one although there are some indications it was also an "orphan" god rather like some Christians tried to claim the Roman unknown god was their god.

About that time the Christian attempts to downgrade the old gods to demons was faltering under the placebo effect. If one can be cured by the Christian god or by a demon what is the difference? It was a good idea to adopt as it was selling well in the fact of Muslim spread.

Judaism was always into the god of Abraham. Mohamed said that was also Allah. The jewish kings had tried to exterminate him and his people. Claiming their's was the same god but the people got it mostly wrong hardly mattered as Judaism is not a creedal religion. In any event Mohamed was a compromiser for the most part and the Jews did not have to surrender to him but could join him if Allah was the god of Abraham. And as his rules were judaism lite it was hardly a burden to accept or even convert.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Watcher wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

One cannot have read the posts of Watcher for long without realizing he is an intolerant racist bigot of either the Christian redneck variety or the Jewish strain. It drips from every post. The hatred of religion is not atheist but directed towards only one, in fact the one that invented monotheism. There is no simple declarative sentence in all the world history of religion prior to "there is no god but God" in Islam. This is not to say I think a Swiss army knife god is better than specialist gods having owned several Swiss army knives I know they are shit.=

Personal vendetta aimed against your nemesis that refuses to tolerate your intense, all-consuming hatred of Jews.

I recite the truth about Jews. Not a single statement has been challenged not even by you.

The truth cannot be hate.

Quote:
  So suck a Muslim dick.  Oh, wait.   You never stopped.

Check my post history, Muslim.   I've ripped more Christian assholes open than any other religion.

I won't keep you any longer.   I know you're busy posting about the poor innocent Palestinian suicide bombers blowing up babies on buses and how the Jews are horrible, disgusting pigs for not tolerating that.

And let me make this CRYSTAL CLEAR, how am I racist because I hate people that buy into a belief system?   If you are white, black, yellow, red, orange, purple, polka dotted, and you are an atheist you start off a relationship with me on pretty favorably grounds.   If you are any of these "races" but you subscribe to Islam, you're in the fucking gutter of my opinion of you.  I don't give a fuck what ethnic group you are.

That's being a racist?

Fuck, I'm a racist against Scientologists too.

I refuse to be tolerant of someone killing me because I or my loved ones were simply born in this geographical location.   That's what Muslims do.   They don't kill you because you are a physical threat but just because you exist.   You were born.  And you aren't them, therefore worthy of death.   And they teach them that they will be rewarded for that.

Well fuck you.   Jewish religion doesn't teach that.   The Jews don't even try to make anyone agree with their religious beliefs, there are zero jewish missionaries.   How many Muslim outreach programs are there for killing anyone that is not Muslim?   Can you HONESTLY answer those questions?   No you won't.   You'll obfuscate.   Fucking scum.

You need to learn the meaning of the word race. Most Muslims are caucasians. So are almost all Jews.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


Brian37
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Quote:If a single country

Quote:
If a single country then a democracy then let the voters decide.

BULLSHIT, voting by itself does not protect dissent. Iran has elections and so does China. Mob rule by vote is not pluralistic.

You have to protect dissent otherwise you are no different. Monopoly by vote is still a dictatorship.

NOW AGAIN, unless Palestine is going to write a constitution protecting the voting rights of non-Muslims and the free speech of non-Muslims voting doesn't mean shit.

VOTING by itself doesn't insure freedom. Other tools have to serve besides it. Checks and balances and protection of dissent and protection of minorities are what keep society secular and pluralistic.

You our out of your fucking mind to be an atheist living surrounded by theists to simply think that voting alone does the job.

You damned sure wouldn't subject yourself to the majority if they VOTED to say that atheists have no rights.

The only way you protect your own rights is to protect the rights of those whom with you disagree. A democracy is as only as strong as it's weakest voice.

I will not support Palestine's current goal. I will support them if they do the right thing and protect the rights of minorities and political dissent.

ONCE AGAIN, VOTING BY ITSELF DOES NOT PROTECT FREEDOM.

If a majority of Christians vote to make it legal to arrest atheists, I guess since the majority wanted it, it must be ok.

There are plenty of Christians whom would, in America, if voting was the only thing that determined rights, would shut down this website and have Brian arrested, or worse.

VOTING is only one tool in a pluralistic society, but it should not be the only tool.

And lets say for example, Palestine DOES get a state under it's current attitude. Do you think that state would put up with you or me walking down the street with a sign "Allah is fiction".

If a majority of society wanted to bring back slavery you'd be the fucking idiot that would say "Hey they voted, majority rules".

 

 

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 And you still need to

 And you still need to learn the meaning of "war crimes". Get to work.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Vastet wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Vastet wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
s you KNOW, it an absolute right to attack any member of the military of the occupying country
As you apparently DON'T know, children are not a military, economic, or political target. If hiding amongst children is a crime, then both sides are guilty of it.

Of course children are not the targets. The military people hiding among children are the targets. The children are lawful collateral damage AS ISRAEL SAYS when it kills children.

It is the obligation to stay away from civilians to avoid unwanted collateral damage to their own side. That they hide among civilians makes they responsible for the collateral damage.

And so the Palestinians build military bases in operational and full hospitals. BOTH SIDES ARE GUILTY.

Do you blame the French for such things during WWII?

Do you think this justifies war crimes by millions of jewish war criminals?

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
If a single country then a democracy then let the voters decide.

BULLSHIT

Before I explain it all to you, please tell me how your response justifies war crimes by millions of Jews against millions of Palestinians.


 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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jcgadfly wrote: And you

jcgadfly wrote:
And you still need to learn the meaning of "war crimes". Get to work.

It means the things for which Nazis were hanged at Nuremberg.

Care to explain why Nazis were hanged for moving their civilian population into occupied territory but it is perfectly acceptable for Israel to move Jews (and only Jews) into occupied territory?

Please be specific in your defense of jewish war crimes.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


jcgadfly
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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:jcgadfly

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:
And you still need to learn the meaning of "war crimes". Get to work.

It means the things for which Nazis were hanged at Nuremberg.

Care to explain why Nazis were hanged for moving their civilian population into occupied territory but it is perfectly acceptable for Israel to move Jews (and only Jews) into occupied territory?

Please be specific in your defense of jewish war crimes.

 

And the things that the Palestinians and Israelis would be punished for at the World Court. The conventions you quoted prove that (though I don't think you meant them to).

I'm not defending war crimes. I want to see both groups of criminals punished. Why don't you?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Vastet
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"Do you blame the French for

"Do you blame the French for such things during WWII?"

Sure. But then the French were a lot smarter, and far more successful. And today the relationship between France and Germany is looking pretty good, because both sides stopped their activities.

"Do you think this justifies war crimes by millions of jewish war criminals?"

Justice and legality are two different topics. Pick one and stick with it. Both sides can justify their position. Both sides are committing war crimes.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.