The great big thread of Nony vs. Israel

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The great big thread of Nony vs. Israel

For those who read my recommendations of The Jerusalem Post and Haaretz this is old news. For those who have better things to do with their time, such as forming opinion absent knowledge of the subject, the last week has become an admission of the obvious.

The one thing that was the unmentionable 800 lb gorilla in the room for months started being mentioned as an aside about a week ago by both the US and Israel. On Thursday in Israel the PM's Office said that when he spoke to the UN Netanyahu would address both the desire for peaceful negotiations and the 800 lb gorilla.

The gorilla is the fact that a state of Palestine can and presumably will take Israel before the ICJ, the International Court of Justice, for war crimes related to the occupation. Elvis has entered the building! Israelis have no defense. They are guilty as charged.

The gorilla is in the open. Izziehuggers take to the hills. Israel has routed your defense of Israel.

www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/netanyahu-israel-will-agree-to-upgrade-of-palestinian-status-not-statehood-1.384716

Quote:
Netanyahu told his interlocutors that granting the PA the status of a state would allow the Palestinians to go to the International Criminal Court in The Hague over issues like settlement construction. "But as long as it is less than a state, I'm ready to talk about it," a source familiar with the conversation quoted him as saying.

It is an admission of war crimes plain and simple.

Please folks, stop telling me I do not know what is going on but you do. Anyone who follows events in Israel would never have questioned Israel's war crimes.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

 

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:
OK, you did not address my question. Who gets to control of the 2.5 stage nuclear weapons?

 

Now you know the real and only reason the US supports the Jewish tyranny over the Palestinians.

 

Well, actually, that was directed at Luminon. Even so, it does make a point. Nobody is going to let Hammas have control of them. They will get used, probably within weeks. That is just the way that they roll.

 

That being said, I don't buy the idea that that is the sole reason. We were backing them long before we knew. I am actually thinking that we back them also because our next friend in the area is Turkey and they can't really be counted on in a pinch. One more egg in the basket is a direct advantage to us. Especially one that tends to create an impression in Ankara that they need to play ball.

 

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Luminon wrote:Ethics is not

Luminon wrote:

Ethics is not tradeoff, it's a sacrifice of the primitive behavior in favor of the advanced. It's tough, but worth it.

I took one Ethics class, when you analyze arguements and situations, it's always a questions of tradeoffs and the value you assign to various outcomes.

I don't believe humans are capable of any real sacrifice. We analyze situations both consciously and unconsciously and decide based on 'what's in it for me'. What you call 'advanced' behavior is really  a strategy of delayed satisfaction or cooperation with a group. We don't have freewill to be anything ego-centric hedonists, but we can put on the act of being empathetic and feel good about it.

Luminon wrote:

Of course I want to see the real results in the world. Maybe I am a junkie of brain chemistry, but my main drug is not empathogen, it's just plain endorphine triggered by music. Empathy is an inner motivation, but what I really want is harmony (people getting along reasonably well) achieved through order in the system and motivating people to want to fit in. 

But our biological imperative is to survive and reproduce. 'Fitting in' is only a useful strategy in this context.

People believe what they want to believe to make themselves feel good. That's why music and prayer are so important in religion. Music makes people feel they should believe. Prayer makes them feel they are being empathic toward those they pray for.

Rationality can't rule the day because humans are basically junkies for some combination of drugs like music and empathy. If you had less oxytocin in you brain, you might see things as I do.

Luminon wrote:

The world is in disorder, because our key elements in the system are set to create inequality and expansion.  That wasn't a problem in the past, because the nature and unconquered or weaker countries acted as a buffer, which is gone by now. Now we need to radically change most of areas of our lives, by deliberately focusing on what's best in us and getting organized in such a way, that it will be viable. You already mentioned sharing of resources. That is the essential first step. 

Sharing with rational people. The Palestinians are telling women to have 12 children for God and country. The Palestinians need to be told to live by rational rules if they really want peace and prosperity.

Luminon wrote:

 And why do you think I'm not in favor of this? Who propagates the two greatest promoters of resource sharing, The Zeitgeist Movement (and Venus Project) and Ben Creme's Share International? Who studies public administration and laws? My country is in disorder, because the people on the top use the disorder to cover their thievery. Don't mind my idealism, it's the best protection agaist bribery. If outer values lead to corruption or dependence on status quo, we must derive pleasure from inner values. If I ever get anywhere public, I want to play on public opinion with spotless white shield, while still showing brains enough to organize things correctly. 

People are thieves because thiervery works. They have a biological imperative to attain things needed for survival. It a competitive world due to population pressures. Unless we address this problem directly, people will keep on stealing because this is what works.

Luminon wrote:

This is why, when I'm finished with the public administration, I want to study sociology, plus related areas, psycho-and politology. You may see people realistically, but you don't influence people with magnetic and electric fields. System and science is one thing, but you galvanize and magnetize them with charisma, good will, art, shared purpose, vision of an ideal and trust in regular delivery of results. That is a science, or should be. 

Yes you can influence people with magnetic and electric fields:

http://www.suffolktmsandbehavioraltreatmentcenter.com/

Neurotransmitter chemicals as well influence people, that's why cocaine is so expensive.

So your method of choice to 'influence' people is with music and propaganda(al la religion and politicians). It's primitive technology for mood control, soon to be obsoleted. Why not study neuroscience?

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


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EXC wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
All I have seen is the lawful use of force against a foreign enemy. Terrorism is the use of violence to achieve political ends. I have only seen the use of violence to achieve lawful and moral ends, specifically the return of private property to its lawful owners.

In the matter of the Apaches, they signed treaties which they have sued to enforce rather than overturn.

In the matter of Mexico, only sovereignty changed NOT ownership. Sovereignty and ownership are completely different things.

Why do you post nonsense?

So the Jews should just put a gun to the heads of the Palestinian leaders and force them to sign a treaty making themselves the lawful owners. Then they can kick out all the Palestinians because their leaders signed this treaty just like the Indians and Mexicans.

Treaties signed under duress are not held to be lawful but rather null from moment of creation as though they had never existed. You need to learn much about internatioal law also.

Quote:
Who the fuck is to say what is lawful, it's just whoever has the biggest guns make the laws.

In this case the Hague V and Geneva IV are the governing treaties. Israel is a signatory to both of them. The world has progressed greatly since you were last on the planet some two centuries ago. I can only suggest you catch up on the relevant events which occurred while you were away.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

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www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:
EXC, I am inclined to agree with you. But see my comment in post #10. Ownership of that land is vested in whomever won the most recent battle.

You know that has never been true. Sovereignty passes with conquest not ownership. You know the two concepts are not related. Why do you say what you know is not true?

Quote:
Even so, while I rarely agree with Nony, he does have a point here. The Israelis have passed bizarre laws on property ownership. If you do not occupy your own house continuously, they can move a family in. As far as I know, there is no clear definition of how long you have to be gone for that to happen.

As little as one year after the Jews evict the owner it can be declared abandoned so another Jew can move in if the matter procedes according to law. In the wild West Bank Jews generally just throw out the owners and move in immediately. If the lawful owners can afford to appeal to the military dictatorship for justice the kangaroo rat courts accept even the crudest forgeries as lawful bills of sale.

Quote:
Also, any “military commander” (I have no clue what rank you must have to qualify) can declare any scrap of ground to be a no enter and no leave zone. So if they pick some public event to do this, they can shoot people trying to go home at the end of the day. Then your property is effectively abandoned and people can move in.

Absent someone willing to take the fall the shooting comes first and the declaration created later to paper over the murders.

Quote:
Take over most of a town that way and nobody is going to want to live there. So they leave, thus opening up the rest of the community to settlers.

One of the more popular methods is to build the sewage system so that the runoff is onto Palestinian lands. Human sewage using human sewage as a weapon. Quite Medieval. Who would have thought anyone would sink so low these days.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:
OK, you did not address my question. Who gets to control of the 2.5 stage nuclear weapons?

Now you know the real and only reason the US supports the Jewish tyranny over the Palestinians.

Well, actually, that was directed at Luminon. Even so, it does make a point. Nobody is going to let Hammas have control of them. They will get used, probably within weeks. That is just the way that they roll.

Hamas has such a bad rap when their sole crime is openly refusing to make peace with Israel. We also note Israel brags about violently over-reacting to any attack, about being a mad dog, about being insane so that no one will mess with it. Clearly much worse a threat to the world than Hamas.

Quote:
That being said, I don't buy the idea that that is the sole reason. We were backing them long before we knew. I am actually thinking that we back them also because our next friend in the area is Turkey and they can't really be counted on in a pinch. One more egg in the basket is a direct advantage to us. Especially one that tends to create an impression in Ankara that they need to play ball.

The US backed Israel after the 1967 war as part of the Cold War propaganda effort. Nothing more. When the Cold War ended that should have also as it did in Somalia and so many other countries.

As for being counted on, for what? The US has has had two wars in the region, both Bush wars. Israel was useless in both cases. In fact in the first Iraq war Israel blackmailed the first Bush with the threat to attack Iraq on its own. That is the action of an enemy not a friend.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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OK, by your logic, we stole Europe from the Neanderthals. It does not matter that there are none of them around to press the claim. It was an act of theft and it can only be put right by abandoning the continent.

 

Presumably, the homo sapiens should all go back to Africa where they came from.  Umm, they already tried to conquer Africa once and that did not work out so well.

 

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Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:
I have the report as well. I see that you are taking uncritically the Turkish part of the report. I am working from the findings.

To cut and paste from my OP

Quote:
1) For those who say it exonerates Israel, it specifically states it is not a legal opinion.

Whatever its conclusions they have no legal merit whatsover. As you missed this point let me quote it.

Quote:
The Panel reviewed these reports and further information and clarifications it received in written form and through direct meetings with Points of Contact appointed by each government. In light of the information so gathered, the Panel has examined and identified the facts, circumstances and context of the incident and considered and recommended ways of avoiding similar incidents in the future. In so doing it was not acting as a Court and was not asked to adjudicate on legal liability. Its findings and recommendations are therefore not intended to attribute any legal responsibilities. Nevertheless, the Panel hopes that its report may resolve the issues surrounding the incident and bring the matter to an end.

Regardless of its conclusions they have no standing in law.

This leaves us with your agreement in at least the following matters.

1) the attack was in international waters which is a crime

2) the ship was headed towards Egypt not Gaza

3) there was no order to stop or any order of any kind issued to the ship

These agreements negate any consideration of the NON-LEGAL opinion as to the validity of the blockade.

Quote:
104. We have made it clear that we consider that Israel was entitled to impose the

naval blockade. It follows that Israel was also entitled to enforce it. The manner of its

enforcement, however, raises serious issues of concern.

105. Although it has been suggested that an understanding was reached through

diplomatic channels that the flotilla would, if necessary, divert to the Egyptian port of Al-

Arish 335 any such understanding was not reflected in the port records or the responses the

Israeli Navy received from the ships of the flotilla when they were challenged. Port

Authority Records supplied by Turkey state that the intended destination of the vessels

was Gaza. 336 Material in both national reports confirms that repeated messages were

transmitted from the flotilla that they were sailing to Gaza and that the Israeli Navy had

no power to stop or order them to change course while they were in international

waters. 337

106. The first warning radioed by the Israeli Navy to the flotilla invited the vessels to

head for Ashdod port where the humanitarian supplies could be delivered. 338 The second

warning requested them to change course and not enter the blockade area. 339 Two

subsequent warnings were delivered emphasizing that “all necessary measures” would be

taken to enforce the blockade, including through the boarding of the vessels. 340

107. Material before the Panel indicates that between 10.58 p.m. and 11.58 p.m. on 30

May 2010 the Mavi Marmara changed course from a bearing of 222o to one of 185o. 341

However, there is dispute about the significance of this. The Turkish report states that

this course was directed towards a point between Al-Arish and the Suez Canal; 342 while

Israel maintains it in fact turned the vessels more directly towards Gaza. 343 Given the

distance of the vessels from shore, it is hard to draw a firm conclusion as to their

intention from their course alone. Significantly, although the Israeli Navy continued to issue warnings, no radio message was transmitted by the flotilla indicating that its course

or intended destination had been changed.

108. On the best view we can form of the matter we believe it was reasonable in the

circumstances for the Israeli Navy to conclude that the vessels of the flotilla intended to

proceed to Gaza. That is what they repeatedly said. That intention was consistent with

an intention to breach the blockade.

109. For Israel to maintain the blockade it had to be effective, so it must be enforced.

That is a clear legal requirement for a blockade.344 Such enforcement may take place on

the high seas and may be conducted by force if a vessel resists. To this point in the

analysis no difficulty arises. But the subsequent steps taken raise serious questions as to

whether the enforcement was executed appropriately in the circumstances.

As there was no order to stop there was no resistance.

As for being enforced two aid ships had previously entered Gaza without being stopped so the requirement that everything always be prevented from entering was not met.

===

I have it on the best authority that there are only two kinds of Jews, those who love Israel and those who hate themselves.

For an atheist you appear to be working rather hard at appearing to be a Jew. Are you trying to defame Jews?

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

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Right. Got you. Israel did not violate any international laws. The blockade runners did not change course until exactly when they had intended to make the run in and the course change was exactly to be a clear intent to run the blockade. They ignored four warnings over several hours. The fact they did not finish the course change is to be ignored.

 

At the exact moment of the raid, they were not pointed toward the direction which they had been stating to be the intention for many months must be ignored because the ship that had the goods could have possibly been pointed to a viable port. The other ships were pointed to nowhere at all.

 

Really, I can agree with you on some of this. The Israelis are a bunch of assholes. They pulled a drumhead trial. Drumhead trials are not regulated by international law. In this case, the Turks were bigger assholes that the Israelis. If you want to run a blockade, you keep the plan to yourself. If you want to make a huge damned splash in the media, then tell the world that you intend to run the blockade. Then make a big fucking stink over the matter.

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How many times have we

How many times have we already been down this road?  The only thing we need is for the terrorists to cut it the fuck out,

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Cpt_pineapple wrote:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-14924778

Really? Why is the US opposing this? Maybe if Palestine gets regonized as a state, the people may get human rights, and who would want that?

A two state solution is formal US policy. After the vote there will be two states. It is unclear why the US is against its own policy.

Saying Palestine should become a state only after it makes peace with Israel is like saying 1939 Poland should only become a state again after it makes peace with the Nazis. Foreign dictators are all alike and can do no right.

Israel's concern appears to be that Palestine can file war crimes charges against Israel for the occupation. There are literally tens of thousands of such war crimes and Israel has no defense at all against any of them. Diplomatic and executive immunity do not apply to war crimes. 500,000 Jew squatters in the West Bank all become war criminals not just ALL the poltiical leaders, government functionaries and military personnel who have served in occupied territory.

In fact the magnitude of the concern is such that head of the legal department of Israel's military said that going to the ICC with war crimes charges would be considered an act of war against Israel. The only question is will there be an all out attack (going mad with indiscriminate destruction) or simply the cold-blooded murder of a few dozen top officials? Both are common Israeli actions.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

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Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:
How many times have we already been down this road?  The only thing we need is for the terrorists to cut it the fuck out,

In 1978 Israel signed a peace treaty with Egypt which promised a free state of Palestine in five years. Nothing happened.

in 1993 Israel signed the Oslo Accords promising a free state of Palestine in five years. Nothing happened.

For all this time Arafat was all that stood between the occupation and a free state of Palestine. He died. Nothing happened.

After his death it was only terrorism that stood between the occupation and a free state of Palestine. The terrorism ended. Nothing happened.

Now that ALL the fake excuses are gone izziehuggers pretend things still haven't changed.

To all impartial observers there is only one thing to negotiate and that is the schedule for the total withdrawal of Israel to the 1948 border. Israel refuses to admit there were borders in 1948.

Israel does not want peace. Israel wants land. Honesty would be a novelty for izziehuggers.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

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Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

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Right. Got you. Israel did not violate any international laws. The blockade runners did not change course until exactly when they had intended to make the run in and the course change was exactly to be a clear intent to run the blockade. They ignored four warnings over several hours. The fact they did not finish the course change is to be ignored.

What is there about

31.At approximately 11.30 p.m., however, the Mavi Marmara did change course to a bearing of 185º directed towards the coast of Egypt.

    that you do not understand?

Quote:
At the exact moment of the raid, they were not pointed toward the direction which they had been stating to be the intention for many months must be ignored because the ship that had the goods could have possibly been pointed to a viable port. The other ships were pointed to nowhere at all.

I can make up things too. If you can find your invention in the report please feel free to quote it. If you cannot find it at least have the courtesy to admit you made it up.

Quote:
Really, I can agree with you on some of this. The Israelis are a bunch of assholes. They pulled a drumhead trial. Drumhead trials are not regulated by international law.

Although a slang term drumhead trial has a meaning it does not apply in this case. However, if you can provide a transcript of that trial please feel free to do so. It is difficult to understand how there can be a claim to a trial when there is no jurisdiction.

Quote:
In this case, the Turks were bigger assholes that the Israelis. If you want to run a blockade, you keep the plan to yourself. If you want to make a huge damned splash in the media, then tell the world that you intend to run the blockade. Then make a big fucking stink over the matter.

The point of a 12 mile blockade is so that AFTER a ship crosses it there is time to stop it. If you need more time you make it bigger BEFOREhand.

We still have all three points of agreement between us so I do not see why you continue. The attack was a crime for our points of agreement.

That is sufficient to establish the crime. That it was a crime makes all subsequent deaths felony murders not just the five who were clearly murdered with head shots.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

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EXC
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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

 

Treaties signed under duress are not held to be lawful but rather null from moment of creation as though they had never existed. You need to learn much about internatioal law also.

So you agree that treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo is invalid and the US southwest should be returned to Mexico? The rightful 'owners'.

Why do you think ownership of land is a rational concept to begin with? It's just a way for one group of people to prosper at the expense others. A way for people to get wealth without work or any real contribution to the economy. If land use was viewed as a privledge one should pay for rather than a birthright, people wouldn't be fighting over the land.

 

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

In this case the Hague V and Geneva IV are the governing treaties. Israel is a signatory to both of them. The world has progressed greatly since you were last on the planet some two centuries ago. I can only suggest you catch up on the relevant events which occurred while you were away.

You seem to have this concept that law and ownership are some kind of sacred and mystical entities. Like they were ordained by God. The concept that has led to this conflict in the first place. Just like the right to breed is some sacred blessing from the Divine, when it's actually the root cause coming from both sides.

Law is just a set rules that and army or police enforces. The Hague doesn't have an army, they have to ask countries that do to enforce their rulings. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. So the real law comes from the people that control the armies and police.

I can say my law is that your hometown is my property. Unless I have an army to enforce my law, it's meaningless.

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


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EXC wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
Treaties signed under duress are not held to be lawful but rather null from moment of creation as though they had never existed. You need to learn much about internatioal law also.

So you agree that treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo is invalid and the US southwest should be returned to Mexico? The rightful 'owners'.

How do you get that? It is a peace treaty. That means its terms continue else hostilities resume. It is not a contract as there is no outside enforcement. Retention of the Southwest by the US is a condition of not kicking Mexico's butt again.

Quote:
Why do you think ownership of land is a rational concept to begin with? It's just a way for one group of people to prosper at the expense others. A way for people to get wealth without work or any real contribution to the economy. If land use was viewed as a privledge one should pay for rather than a birthright, people wouldn't be fighting over the land.

What makes you think rational is a criteria? It is a reasonable criteria in that it keeps the peace among people. Otherwise they kill each other over ownership which is the reason Palestinians kill Jews. Jews are thieves.

You appear to be attempting to exonerate thieves by claiming thieves have greater rights. Otherwise your rant makes no sense at all as there is no rational application to this subject.

Quote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
In this case the Hague V and Geneva IV are the governing treaties. Israel is a signatory to both of them. The world has progressed greatly since you were last on the planet some two centuries ago. I can only suggest you catch up on the relevant events which occurred while you were away.

You seem to have this concept that law and ownership are some kind of sacred and mystical entities. Like they were ordained by God. The concept that has led to this conflict in the first place. Just like the right to breed is some sacred blessing from the Divine, when it's actually the root cause coming from both sides.

Nothing mystical about ownership. It is very practical. Take what is mine and I will kill you. Nothing mystical in that.

Quote:
Law is just a set rules that and army or police enforces. The Hague doesn't have an army, they have to ask countries that do to enforce their rulings. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. So the real law comes from the people that control the armies and police.

I can say my law is that your hometown is my property. Unless I have an army to enforce my law, it's meaningless.

Again you fail to addres the OP. Palestinians live under a tyrannical jewish military dictatorship REGARDLESS of ownership or your inability to grasp that concept. As in WWII the victims have an indiscriminate right to slaughter any and all members of the oppressor's society at any time and in any manner. So also do those who ally with the oppressed.

I fail to see why you support a jewish tyranny. Can you explain?

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

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Vastet
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How about the US just takes

How about the US just takes the nukes? It's not like most or all of those nukes don't have "Made in USA" branded on them somewhere. Or give them to China, or Russia, or France, or England, or Germany; or even Canada or Japan; or just throw it all into the sun.

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Vastet
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The US is effectively

The US is effectively delusional in this case. It knows it can't stop Palestine from being recognised as a state, but it's going to give its all to prevent it anyway. It's long overdue in my book. You will never have peace as long as there is an occupation going on. But you can't be a scum of the Earth occupier if the location you're trying to occupy is a recognised state. Welcome to the Hague, Israel and Palestine. I think we'll be seeing a parade of people from both nations answering to all sorts of fun stuff in war crimes tribunals soon. Finally.

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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:EXC

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

EXC wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
Treaties signed under duress are not held to be lawful but rather null from moment of creation as though they had never existed. You need to learn much about internatioal law also.

So you agree that treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo is invalid and the US southwest should be returned to Mexico? The rightful 'owners'.

How do you get that? It is a peace treaty. That means its terms continue else hostilities resume. It is not a contract as there is no outside enforcement. Retention of the Southwest by the US is a condition of not kicking Mexico's butt again.

Quote:
Why do you think ownership of land is a rational concept to begin with? It's just a way for one group of people to prosper at the expense others. A way for people to get wealth without work or any real contribution to the economy. If land use was viewed as a privledge one should pay for rather than a birthright, people wouldn't be fighting over the land.

What makes you think rational is a criteria? It is a reasonable criteria in that it keeps the peace among people. Otherwise they kill each other over ownership which is the reason Palestinians kill Jews. Jews are thieves.

You appear to be attempting to exonerate thieves by claiming thieves have greater rights. Otherwise your rant makes no sense at all as there is no rational application to this subject.

Quote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
In this case the Hague V and Geneva IV are the governing treaties. Israel is a signatory to both of them. The world has progressed greatly since you were last on the planet some two centuries ago. I can only suggest you catch up on the relevant events which occurred while you were away.

You seem to have this concept that law and ownership are some kind of sacred and mystical entities. Like they were ordained by God. The concept that has led to this conflict in the first place. Just like the right to breed is some sacred blessing from the Divine, when it's actually the root cause coming from both sides.

Nothing mystical about ownership. It is very practical. Take what is mine and I will kill you. Nothing mystical in that.

Quote:
Law is just a set rules that and army or police enforces. The Hague doesn't have an army, they have to ask countries that do to enforce their rulings. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. So the real law comes from the people that control the armies and police.

I can say my law is that your hometown is my property. Unless I have an army to enforce my law, it's meaningless.

Again you fail to addres the OP. Palestinians live under a tyrannical jewish military dictatorship REGARDLESS of ownership or your inability to grasp that concept. As in WWII the victims have an indiscriminate right to slaughter any and all members of the oppressor's society at any time and in any manner. So also do those who ally with the oppressed.

I fail to see why you support a jewish tyranny. Can you explain?

Once again, you seem to miss that whatever problems MANY HAVE with Israel, and we do, do not negate the end goal of Palestine. It is absurd to ask me to support a society that allows theocratic nutcases to rule them who are bent on taking out the one western style country in the region.

You want to paint all Israelis as having the same politics. Unlike you I know not all Palestinians are religious nuts. I would suggest the secular among them get control over Palestine and demand a non-violent approach to the wrongful land grab Israel commits.

Until Palestine proclaims itself secular and loses it's attitude of wiping Israel off the map, they wont get any sympathy from me, even if I DO have sympathy for those who are the secular among them.

So stop just bitching at Israel and demand that those in Palestine lose their tribal Allah bullshit violent tactics.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:Answers

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:
How many times have we already been down this road?  The only thing we need is for the terrorists to cut it the fuck out,

In 1978 Israel signed a peace treaty with Egypt which promised a free state of Palestine in five years. Nothing happened.

in 1993 Israel signed the Oslo Accords promising a free state of Palestine in five years. Nothing happened.

For all this time Arafat was all that stood between the occupation and a free state of Palestine. He died. Nothing happened.

After his death it was only terrorism that stood between the occupation and a free state of Palestine. The terrorism ended. Nothing happened.

Now that ALL the fake excuses are gone izziehuggers pretend things still haven't changed.

To all impartial observers there is only one thing to negotiate and that is the schedule for the total withdrawal of Israel to the 1948 border. Israel refuses to admit there were borders in 1948.

Israel does not want peace. Israel wants land. Honesty would be a novelty for izziehuggers.

 

If one drug dealer shoots another drug dealer and claims self defense does that mean the one claiming self defense is not a drug dealer?

I am well aware of the history between the two. But again, how the fuck you think Israel is going to give one fuck about taking land when the other side is ruled by gang minions for Allah bent on wiping Israel off the face of the planet. You think if they get a state they wont continue that attitude?

I am sick of you thinking that some of us don't know what is going on. I am not an "izzyhugger" but it seems you blindly want to be an "Allah huger" pretending the rulers of Palestine aren't off their rockers.

There is PLENTY of stink on both sides.

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Vastet
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One major difference between

One major difference between them that you don't seem to realise is that not all Palestinians are suicide bombing terrorist scum. But ALL of Israel is military. There are actually some, believe it or not, Palestinian civillians who never pick up a weapon and aim it at Israel. The reverse is not true.

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Vastet wrote:
The US is effectively delusional in this case. It knows it can't stop Palestine from being recognised as a state, but it's going to give its all to prevent it anyway. It's long overdue in my book. You will never have peace as long as there is an occupation going on. But you can't be a scum of the Earth occupier if the location you're trying to occupy is a recognised state. Welcome to the Hague, Israel and Palestine. I think we'll be seeing a parade of people from both nations answering to all sorts of fun stuff in war crimes tribunals soon. Finally.

When it comes to diplomatic recognition of reality it is difficult to say the US is ever leading the way. Bolshevik Russia was not recognized until 1933, mainland China not until 1982 (1?, Nixon anyway.) But it was the first to recognize Israel and we have the original text with the word "jewish" struck from the statement showing not even the US recognizes it as a jewish state.

Given the repeated excesses in favor of Israel the many conspiracy theories attempting to explain it are quite understandable although the fundamentally bible-thumping nature of the US probably explains it all. It is all just another damning consequence of theism.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Brian37 wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:
How many times have we already been down this road?  The only thing we need is for the terrorists to cut it the fuck out,

In 1978 Israel signed a peace treaty with Egypt which promised a free state of Palestine in five years. Nothing happened.

in 1993 Israel signed the Oslo Accords promising a free state of Palestine in five years. Nothing happened.

For all this time Arafat was all that stood between the occupation and a free state of Palestine. He died. Nothing happened.

After his death it was only terrorism that stood between the occupation and a free state of Palestine. The terrorism ended. Nothing happened.

Now that ALL the fake excuses are gone izziehuggers pretend things still haven't changed.

To all impartial observers there is only one thing to negotiate and that is the schedule for the total withdrawal of Israel to the 1948 border. Israel refuses to admit there were borders in 1948.

Israel does not want peace. Israel wants land. Honesty would be a novelty for izziehuggers.

If one drug dealer shoots another drug dealer and claims self defense does that mean the one claiming self defense is not a drug dealer?

However when a bank robber is confronted by an armed guard it is considered felony murder not self-defense. The occupation is a crime. ALL actions consequent to the occupation are also crimes save those conducted in strict accordance with Geneva IV to which Israel is a signatory.

Quote:
I am well aware of the history between the two. But again, how the fuck you think Israel is going to give one fuck about taking land when the other side is ruled by gang minions for Allah bent on wiping Israel off the face of the planet. You think if they get a state they wont continue that attitude?

I am sick of you thinking that some of us don't know what is going on. I am not an "izzyhugger" but it seems you blindly want to be an "Allah huger" pretending the rulers of Palestine aren't off their rockers.

There is PLENTY of stink on both sides.

If you knew what was going on you would know simply by READING haaretz.com and jpost.com, both impeccably jewish and israeli, that the motivations of the Palestinians are not religious in any respect. I do read those and others. There is no basis for any claim of primarily religious motivation of the Palestinians. HOWEVER, should you have authoritative citations of such sources not only would I be interested but I am certain those two Israeli newspapers would like to know what they have missed over the decades. Please post your sources here and email to their editors.

All of which is beside the point. In the eyes of the law it is as much a crime to steal from a widow as from Al Capone. The crime remains a crime regardless of the nature of who it was committed against. This is elementary law. You should acknowledge it and include it in your thinking.

Bad mouthing the  victims, lying about them (absent those sources you are going to provide real soon) does not mitigate either the crime nor the injustice of refusing to return stolen property. Nor does saying they are both thieves negate the crimes of either.

BTW: It is izziehugger. The "ie" makes it appear a bit more effeminate as I intended when inventing the word.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:Vastet

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Vastet wrote:
The US is effectively delusional in this case. It knows it can't stop Palestine from being recognised as a state, but it's going to give its all to prevent it anyway. It's long overdue in my book. You will never have peace as long as there is an occupation going on. But you can't be a scum of the Earth occupier if the location you're trying to occupy is a recognised state. Welcome to the Hague, Israel and Palestine. I think we'll be seeing a parade of people from both nations answering to all sorts of fun stuff in war crimes tribunals soon. Finally.

When it comes to diplomatic recognition of reality it is difficult to say the US is ever leading the way. Bolshevik Russia was not recognized until 1933, mainland China not until 1982 (1?, Nixon anyway.) But it was the first to recognize Israel and we have the original text with the word "jewish" struck from the statement showing not even the US recognizes it as a jewish state.

Given the repeated excesses in favor of Israel the many conspiracy theories attempting to explain it are quite understandable although the fundamentally bible-thumping nature of the US probably explains it all. It is all just another damning consequence of theism.

What the ........You are not making your argument to Christians here, and I find it condescending that you would think the atheists here who side with Israel are blindly buying into what you think theism is peddling. To me it is the lesser of the two evils.

IF Palestine were to proclaim secularism and pluralism PUBLICLY and denounce violence they would leave Israel with no leg to stand on.

Of course I am going to side with Israel, not because I agree with everything they do, but because they reflect vastly more of what the west reflects. But that does not mean I am blind to their stupid claim to the same divine right to that land Muslims claim. Nor does it mean I agree with their land grabs.

Seriously, you have your head on backwards if you think this is all one sided.

The only thing I understand is that you blindly side with the Palestinians as if they have never threatened Israel and by "virtue of the oppressed" that makes them moral by default. No, what you have in reality is two bat shit insane parties who claim moral superiority.  I don't find land grabs moral AND I don't think blowing up buses moral. So you have two immoral pricks claiming to be moral.

If I could send both sides to their own planet I'd let them blow each other up.

 

 

 

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Brian37 wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
...I fail to see why you support a jewish tyranny. Can you explain?

Once again, you seem to miss that whatever problems MANY HAVE with Israel, and we do, do not negate the end goal of Palestine. It is absurd to ask me to support a society that allows theocratic nutcases to rule them who are bent on taking out the one western style country in the region.

At this point I propose to defer all discussion of your fantasies about "theocratic nutcases" until such time you present evidence they are the political leaders of the Palestinians. This is hardly the first time I have challenged such false assertions. Please be the first to show they are true.

Quote:
You want to paint all Israelis as having the same politics. Unlike you I know not all Palestinians are religious nuts. I would suggest the secular among them get control over Palestine and demand a non-violent approach to the wrongful land grab Israel commits.

I am fully aware all Israelis do not have the same politics but that is not a mitigating factor. I am also aware the varying politics of Germans or Japanese or Italians during WWII was not mitigating factor either.

BTW: Both Haaretz and the Jerusalem Post have search engines so IF there is evidence of religious nut cases ruling the Palestinians you should be able to find it easily.

Quote:
Until Palestine proclaims itself secular and loses it's attitude of wiping Israel off the map, they wont get any sympathy from me, even if I DO have sympathy for those who are the secular among them.

Unless I have managed to miss something, which is highly unlikely, the Palestinians have not declared other than an intent to have a state for Palestinians regardless of religion. On the other hand, Israel has declared itself a theocratic and democratic state. Specifically "Jewish and democratic" but a recent law establishes the Torah as the fundamental principle of law in Israel. Palestine has not proposed the Koran as the foundation of its laws.

Quote:
So stop just bitching at Israel and demand that those in Palestine lose their tribal Allah bullshit violent tactics

The Allah part remains your fantasy until shown to the contrary. Palestinians have refrained from their lawful right to kill Israelis at any time, by any means for any reason, for no reason even just for sport. In signing the 4th Geneva convention, Israel acknowledged the Palestinians have such rights.

http://www.giwersworld.org/israel/bombings.phtml

Please read the above so I will not have to repeat myself such as regarding Israel making civilians lawful targets by putting its military among the civilian population.

The world acknowledges they have ceased to use violence. The IDF and Shin Bet both acknowledge it. Among the current political mantras against statehood for Palestine is the RESUMPTION of violence.

So you make up, fantasize, imagine both theocratic rule and violence. Is this deliberate or is it because you know things no one else knows? Please demonstrate you know what no one else knows. Post all the URLs you need.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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You want me to quote

You want me to quote sources? While Fox most certainly is a right wing propaganda machine the other news sources who have been reporting this conflict for decades, are NOT blind to the plight of some of the Palestinians, but like rational people also are not going to side with the religious nuts that rule them. Hamas IS NOT a secular organization and they ARE bent on the destruction of Israel.

For you to claim that our entire country including all the reporters in mass media, are deluded has got to be the biggest "fake moon landing" conspiracy claim I have ever heard. You want me to believe that every reporter in every newspaper and every tv sation on every major network is on the payroll of Fox and Israel?

I am sympathetic to ANY secularist among them but I am NOT sympathetic to suicide bombers or Hamas. But you are certifiably nuts if you think I am going to support their rulers. Israel has blood on it's hands too, but like I said, between the two it wants to be part of the west and is most like the west. The same cannot be said for Palestine.

 

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Vastet wrote:
One major difference between them that you don't seem to realise is that not all Palestinians are suicide bombing terrorist scum. But ALL of Israel is military. There are actually some, believe it or not, Palestinian civillians who never pick up a weapon and aim it at Israel. The reverse is not true.

Remember those cute little jewish girls writing messages on artillery shells before being fired into Lebanon a few years ago? There really are some who have not attacked Palestinians but that is for lack of opportunity not desire. Even little girls are taught to hate by that malignant culture.

Jews started bombing Palestinian markets in 1923, women and children be damned. They kept it up until 1948 when they destroyed the markets and switched to using their new military to slaughter non-Jews. Jews are only against it when it is being done to them. Much like the vaunted jewish interest in minority rights it exists only when Jews are a minority. It is not selfless interest. It is self-interest.

As for suicide bombing, a modest perusal of WWII movies will reveal the heroism attributed to people who go on suicide missions against evil. You might also recall the IDF swearing in ceremony because that is where Judeans murdered their wives and children and then committed suicide -- a noble IDF goal. You might also recall the IDF policy of killing a person to prevent him from being kidnapped. Gilad Shalit is lucky to be alive. So again, suicide is great when Jews do it but evil when done to them. Hypocrisy anyone?

Then of course we have to ask what other method they have. Shall we give them artillery, tanks, F-16s and see if they abandon suicide bombing?

But what is little remarked upon in Israel is the infrastructure of Jewish violence which in other countries Israel calls a terrorist infrastructure. Thus the rabbi who said killing even infants was required if they might grow up to harm Jews is a part of the jewish, terrorist infrastructure.

The entire squatter enterprise and everyone involved in it is part of the jewish, terrorism infrastructure. There is an entire flock of rabbis who are part of the infrastructure and were well identified when it lead to the death of Rabin. Jews act alone. Non-Jews have infrastructures. How curious.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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It's stupid, the US is

It's stupid, the US is bascially saying they oppose a formation of two states, because they want a two state solution.

 

 


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Brian37 wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Vastet wrote:
The US is effectively delusional in this case. It knows it can't stop Palestine from being recognised as a state, but it's going to give its all to prevent it anyway. It's long overdue in my book. You will never have peace as long as there is an occupation going on. But you can't be a scum of the Earth occupier if the location you're trying to occupy is a recognised state. Welcome to the Hague, Israel and Palestine. I think we'll be seeing a parade of people from both nations answering to all sorts of fun stuff in war crimes tribunals soon. Finally.

When it comes to diplomatic recognition of reality it is difficult to say the US is ever leading the way. Bolshevik Russia was not recognized until 1933, mainland China not until 1982 (1?, Nixon anyway.) But it was the first to recognize Israel and we have the original text with the word "jewish" struck from the statement showing not even the US recognizes it as a jewish state.

Given the repeated excesses in favor of Israel the many conspiracy theories attempting to explain it are quite understandable although the fundamentally bible-thumping nature of the US probably explains it all. It is all just another damning consequence of theism.

What the ........You are not making your argument to Christians here, and I find it condescending that you would think the atheists here who side with Israel are blindly buying into what you think theism is peddling. To me it is the lesser of the two evils.

If you wish to invoke an all-powerful jewish conspiracy to explain the unexplainable please feel free to do so. I do not have an explanation for it. I have traced official US support back to a 1923 congressional resolution endorsing Balfour and there I find a bible based motivation. I of many explicit political actions by the traitors as AIPAC solely for the benefit of a foreign power. And no, I am not concerned with the possibility of dual loyalties. I am concerned there might not be dual loyalties.

Quote:
IF Palestine were to proclaim secularism and pluralism PUBLICLY and denounce violence they would leave Israel with no leg to stand on.

Inventing requirements for the victims such as getting rid of Arafat or ending violence and then claiming all will go well if they comply and when they do nothing happens has been going on since 1978. Vioence HAS BEEN denounced and ended and even Israel agrees they have ended the violence. So they get a state now, right? Of course not. Israel invented another demand that it be recognized as a theocracy.

Now you invent a requirement which has no basis whatsoever in fact and pretend it has meaning. Israel has in fact declared it is NOT secular nor pluralistic and in fact not a democracy in the accepted meaning of the word. But you imagine Israel will suddenly agree to end the occupation if the Palestinians utter one more magical incantation. Your bluff sucks.

REAL SOON you are going to produce evidence the political leaders of the Palestinians are religious nutcases, right? I do not want you to have to admit you are lying in this matter. You can, of course, claim honest error at any time and be done with it.

Quote:
Of course I am going to side with Israel, not because I agree with everything they do, but because they reflect vastly more of what the west reflects. But that does not mean I am blind to their stupid claim to the same divine right to that land Muslims claim. Nor does it mean I agree with their land grabs.

I can agree Israel reflects the pre-civil rights South but I do  not see why you support open discrimination in law, public policy and practice. The West does not accept that these days.

That said siding with Israel is separate from consigning the Palestinians to more decades of living under the jewish tyranny. Excuse me. I forgot something. Since when does supporting a military dictatorship reflect western values? According to the 20th c. history texts I have consulted there were two world wars against foreign dictatorships and in favor of self-determination and democracy.

Seems to me israeli values are the very antithesis of western values. Would you care to recite which israeli values out-weigh its devotion to de jure segregation and tyrannical dictatorship?

Quote:
Seriously, you have your head on backwards if you think this is all one sided.

That I oppose tyranny over the human spirit is something I get from Thomas Paine. I don't use such flowery expressions so I steal from the best. My kind of words are, Why should Palestinians have to kiss the ass of every pimply-faced jewish kid in uniform? Why must they submit to the murderous, thieving, destructive whims of even civilian jewish war criminals?

Can you answer how this reflects western values?

Quote:
The only thing I understand is that you blindly side with the Palestinians as if they have never threatened Israel and by "virtue of the oppressed" that makes them moral by default. No, what you have in reality is two bat shit insane parties who claim moral superiority.  I don't find land grabs moral AND I don't think blowing up buses moral. So you have two immoral pricks claiming to be moral.

If I could send both sides to their own planet I'd let them blow each other up.

I only recite the nature of international law and elementary moral principles. By international law buses are always lawful targets as the IDF uses them making them a military asset. If Israel wants to claim the moral high ground on buses it can renounce the use of them by the military. And if a single on or off duty, active or reserve member of the military is one a bus then even if not used by the military the bus becomes a lawful target. Israel AGREES with this. Israel has used the same things as justification for its mad dog, hooligan rampages against Palestinians.

I am not claiming the bus example is moral. I am claiming it is 1) LAWFUL under international law to which Israel has affixed its signature and 2) has been used by Israel. Therefore as both sides have used it they balance out and we are left only with the land thefts and the murders attendent to the thefts.

There is no moral position for the zionists. Their plans were criminal from the beginning.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Brian37 wrote:
You want me to quote sources? While Fox most certainly is a right wing propaganda machine the other news sources who have been reporting this conflict for decades, are NOT blind to the plight of some of the Palestinians, but like rational people also are not going to side with the religious nuts that rule them. Hamas IS NOT a secular organization and they ARE bent on the destruction of Israel.

For you to claim that our entire country including all the reporters in mass media, are deluded has got to be the biggest "fake moon landing" conspiracy claim I have ever heard. You want me to believe that every reporter in every newspaper and every tv sation on every major network is on the payroll of Fox and Israel?

I am sympathetic to ANY secularist among them but I am NOT sympathetic to suicide bombers or Hamas. But you are certifiably nuts if you think I am going to support their rulers. Israel has blood on it's hands too, but like I said, between the two it wants to be part of the west and is most like the west. The same cannot be said for Palestine.

No citations of religious leadership there. So you were making it all up, lying as we say. Do you have the common courtesy to retract your false statements? Or will you choose to continue to recite your deliberately false statements with full knowledge that they are false?

My money is on the latter.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Cpt_pineapple wrote:
It's stupid, the US is bascially saying they oppose a formation of two states, because they want a two state solution.

As this is election season one need only read the dozens of political analyses of the situation to read the threatened veto is solely motivated by the political power of Jews. Even israeli commentators talk about it. No US politician denies it.

And as surveys of jewish Americans show the majority of them are in favor of Palestinians statehood. So if the issue were simply a matter of getting the jewish vote the US would be promoting it. That leaves the jewish political organizations as the opposition which sways US policy.

I am not concerned there might be dual loyalties. I am concerned there might not be.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Because good American

Because good American Christians want the Jews just as dead as the Muslims without getting their hands dirty?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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jcgadfly wrote:
Because good American Christians want the Jews just as dead as the Muslims without getting their hands dirty?

Sic Semper Tyranis as they say in Virginia.

If they do not want to be dead stop working so hard to merit death as foreign tyrants.

BTW: I know the shell game so you can keep trying to play it all you want. I was expecting the shell game response to religious declarations by Palestinian political leaders to be a quote from some unknown Imam in Yemen as CAMERA is always doing. I don't let that happen.

Similarly when the discussion is ONLY and solely the recognition of Palestine shoddy attempts to respond as though it were about the existence of Israel and the destruction of only jewish Israelis won't happen on my watch either.

It comes as a surprise to most people to learn Czechoslovakia was wiped off the map back in 2004 because so few people have noticed. More people noticed when Yugoslavia was wiped off the map. Back in 1948 Palestine was wiped off the map by Jews no less.

So what is all this hysteria about wiping Israel off the map? Is it because Palestinian motives are more sinister than Jewish motives? If so upon what evidence? Jewish motives are about as sinister as you can get. Turn about it always fair play. Or is it another example of Jews only caring about injustice when it happens to them?

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:How do

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

How do you get that? It is a peace treaty. That means its terms continue else hostilities resume. It is not a contract as there is no outside enforcement. Retention of the Southwest by the US is a condition of not kicking Mexico's butt again.

A peace treaty signed under duress, which you said invalidates it. What happened in 1848 between the US and Mexico is substantially what happend in 1967 with Israel. Abraham Lincoln said the war was illegal, the US army occupied Mexico City and told them to sign the treaty. Israel keeping the 67 borders is a condition of no one kicking it's butt.

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

I fail to see why you support a jewish tyranny. Can you explain?

I don't. The Jews are pretty much doing to the Palestines what was done to them by the Nazis(without the gas chambers). The Jews need change just like the Palestinians for there to be peace.

The root cause of the conflict is this irrational belief that people have rights granted by their god just for being born. Demonizing the Jews while ignoring all the irrational shit of Islam and the Palesinians. If the Arabs killed all the Jews, there would only be peace for a little while, then they'd start killing each other.

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


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EXC wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

How do you get that? It is a peace treaty. That means its terms continue else hostilities resume. It is not a contract as there is no outside enforcement. Retention of the Southwest by the US is a condition of not kicking Mexico's butt again.

A peace treaty signed under duress, which you said invalidates it.

Are you literate? A PEACE treaty is for the cessation of hostilities only. Can you not read that?

Quote:
What happened in 1848 between the US and Mexico is substantially what happend in 1967 with Israel.

If you ignore the fact that there are no treaties of any kind related to 1967 you can say that. No rational person can ignore the fact there are no similarities.

Quote:
Abraham Lincoln said the war was illegal, the US army occupied Mexico City and told them to sign the treaty. Israel keeping the 67 borders is a condition of no one kicking it's butt.

One man's opinion in a time when international law in matters of war did not exist is more like wishful thinking. The man was never known for his legal mind which is mainly why he got into politics.

However you refuse to address how this requires millions of Palestinians to live under a tyrannical jewish military dictatorship and kiss the ass of every pimply faced jewish kid in uniform. Please do so.

Quote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

I fail to see why you support a jewish tyranny. Can you explain?

I don't. The Jews are pretty much doing to the Palestines what was done to them by the Nazis(without the gas chambers). The Jews need change just like the Palestinians for there to be peace.

OK, Jews are Nazis. Saturation bombing is to good for them. Ready to sign on to the war?

Quote:
The root cause of the conflict is this irrational belief that people have rights granted by their god just for being born. Demonizing the Jews while ignoring all the irrational shit of Islam and the Palesinians. If the Arabs killed all the Jews, there would only be peace for a little while, then they'd start killing each other.

Only the Jews and their political leaders hold that irrational opinion. If you would like to join Brian in his search for evidence the Palestinians share that irrational claim I am certain he will welcome your assistance.

What Arabs might do to each other is a separate issue from the lawful right to kill off the occupiers and to indiscriminately attack their homeland by any means available as was done during WWII and, as you note, for the same reasons the Nazis were attacked.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Cpt_pineapple wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-14924778

Really? Why is the US opposing this? Maybe if Palestine gets regonized as a state, the people may get human rights, and who would want that?

Consider the obvious. Israel is in such a deep hole that only the US can save it at this point. There is no other country in the world powerful enough to save Israel and at this point it does not appear the US is powerful enough.

Israel keeps telling itself the world does not understand because it fails to explain its actions.

Rather the fact is its explanations only make matters worse. When you are in a hole, don't dig. Israel insists upon digging by explaining. The world completley understands Israel's explanations. That is Israel's problem not the lack of understanding.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Don't get too cocky. The

Don't get too cocky. The only reason there won't be as big or bigger a line of Palestinians heading to the Hague as Israelis is because the Israelis are that much better at killing their enemies.

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I became aware of an

I became aware of an important distinction between the way the Palestinians view the land issue and the way the Israeli government does, watching an episode of "HardTalk" on the BBC, where a representative from each side were interviewed together.

The Palestinian guy claimed they had long conceded the right for the Israelis to have a land of the their own.

The Israeli phrased it as their claim for a Jewish state...

He was queried on that distinction by the interviewer, but simply ignored/sidestepped it.

That is troubling to me on many fronts. Quite apart from the issue over borders.

I wonder what it implies, if anything, for the 20% or so of Israeli citizens who are not 'Jewish'.

I have serious issues with the Palestinians, but the arrogance of the Israeli government and all their representatives that I have heard is just so breathtaking. Their total refusal to consider any compromise, or even the faint possibility that they might have done anything at all questionable, from an ethical standpoint.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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Noony, why so many threads

Noony, why so many threads about the same subject?

 

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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:jcgadfly

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:
Because good American Christians want the Jews just as dead as the Muslims without getting their hands dirty?

Sic Semper Tyranis as they say in Virginia.

If they do not want to be dead stop working so hard to merit death as foreign tyrants.

BTW: I know the shell game so you can keep trying to play it all you want. I was expecting the shell game response to religious declarations by Palestinian political leaders to be a quote from some unknown Imam in Yemen as CAMERA is always doing. I don't let that happen.

Similarly when the discussion is ONLY and solely the recognition of Palestine shoddy attempts to respond as though it were about the existence of Israel and the destruction of only jewish Israelis won't happen on my watch either.

It comes as a surprise to most people to learn Czechoslovakia was wiped off the map back in 2004 because so few people have noticed. More people noticed when Yugoslavia was wiped off the map. Back in 1948 Palestine was wiped off the map by Jews no less.

So what is all this hysteria about wiping Israel off the map? Is it because Palestinian motives are more sinister than Jewish motives? If so upon what evidence? Jewish motives are about as sinister as you can get. Turn about it always fair play. Or is it another example of Jews only caring about injustice when it happens to them?

Not trying to play any shell game. The fact is that the Christians would like to see people who don't think that Jesus is the son of God dead. That includes the Muslims and the Jews. It's about time that both groups in the middle east realized who their true enemy is.

The fact that you'd like the Jews to be under Islamic tyranny is no better than wanting the Muslims to be under Jewish tyranny. Damn shame you can't see that.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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EXC wrote: I took one

EXC wrote:
 I took one Ethics class, when you analyze arguements and situations, it's always a questions of tradeoffs and the value you assign to various outcomes. 
You mean moral dilemmas, that's right, they're tradeoffs. But they're not that frequent in normal life, otherwise mostly when it involves another person. I hope they taught there one important thing, a true sacrifice is voluntary and self-initiated. 

EXC wrote:
 I don't believe humans are capable of any real sacrifice. We analyze situations both consciously and unconsciously and decide based on 'what's in it for me'. What you call 'advanced' behavior is really  a strategy of delayed satisfaction or cooperation with a group. We don't have freewill to be anything [but] ego-centric hedonists, but we can put on the act of being empathetic and feel good about it.
Yeah, but this is what I call growing up and maturing. A child is like a small animal, cute but usually self-centered. That's a biologic imperative.
We are capable of sacrifice for something we see as higher than ourselves. Usually something abstract, like the humanity, nation, freedom, medical science, and so on. I doubt Muslims would sacrifice themselves so eagerly only for 72 virgins with no divine majesty of Allah backing up the whole business. Sometimes the sacrifice even goes without thinking or ideals, like reflexive saving a family member from death. There are many cases like that, where the calculating rational mind has no say.

EXC wrote:
 But our biological imperative is to survive and reproduce. 'Fitting in' is only a useful strategy in this context.
There are many imperatives and when the conditions are not extreme, biological imperatives become weak and social or even personal ones take over. There are even a few people who have transpersonal imperatives. This is why the original population of Europe declines, people want contraception and careers, reproduction can wait. This is by the way the only real method to eliminate population, wars don't really decrease the numbers, there's always baby boom at the end of war.

EXC wrote:
 People believe what they want to believe to make themselves feel good. That's why music and prayer are so important in religion. Music makes people feel they should believe. Prayer makes them feel they are being empathic toward those they pray for.

Rationality can't rule the day because humans are basically junkies for some combination of drugs like music and empathy. If you had less oxytocin in you brain, you might see things as I do.

Your worldview is way too mechanistic. It is also very influenced by religion. Here we have as much Christians as anywhere, specially in the borderlands. But people feel good because they get drunk, watch soccer and hockey, spend money and have relationships. They also perform their duties, most of the daytime. 
To me it looks like the simulative power of brain allows us to become whatever we want to become. Do you want to be a purely rational being? Do you want to be a truly selfless person, not thinking or feeling of yourself at all? What about a fighter, a believer, an addict? Whatever. We create our own reality in our brain, or let others create it. We can become complex personalities with a mix of complex motivations, some of which can not be traced down to the drugs and hormones. It's more like they're purely based on information in brain. 

EXC wrote:
 Sharing with rational people. The Palestinians are telling women to have 12 children for God and country. The Palestinians need to be told to live by rational rules if they really want peace and prosperity.
Rational people are fine, but we have to work with the material we have. Sharing first creates trust, or if you want to call it so, a diplomatic leverage. Improved conditions reduce extremism, but it is a slow process. You can't throw people overboard, just because they won't become rational overnight. Until then, just manipulate them emotionally for their own good. 

EXC wrote:
 People are thieves because thiervery works. They have a biological imperative to attain things needed for survival. It a competitive world due to population pressures. Unless we address this problem directly, people will keep on stealing because this is what works.
As I already said, biological imperatives work only in extreme conditions. Stuff like stealing bread because of hunger. The problem is hunger and the solution is not punishment.
Stealing land is a social or cultural imperative. The problem is a fucked-up society and the solution is not an attack from the outside. It's taking over the society from the inside, estabilishing transparency of processes, clear application of law, keeping with treaties, obeying international sanctions, gving the land back, etc. And mass media coverage on top of that, this is important to say what you're doing and why, so people will understand and trust.
A child can't be properly brough up, when mommy says something and daddy something else and they block each other's word. Israeli leaders surely laugh at OSN and its weakness against a few stubborn vetos.
 

EXC wrote:
 

Yes you can influence people with magnetic and electric fields:

http://www.suffolktmsandbehavioraltreatmentcenter.com/

Neurotransmitter chemicals as well influence people, that's why cocaine is so expensive.

So your method of choice to 'influence' people is with music and propaganda(al la religion and politicians). It's primitive technology for mood control, soon to be obsoleted. Why not study neuroscience?

Yes, I know there are technical means, some brain parts react to microwave stimulation, etc. But influencing people like that is very bad for public relations. But look at it from the practical side. Technologic advancement is good, but it can not work without moral advancement. Technology is like shoes, if our shoes grow, our feet must grow too, otherwise we will not get very far. Should we throw technology away, as Unabomber advised? No, we must develop moral qualities and create a suitable environment for that, one that is not extreme in poverty or wealth.

Maybe people are biologic machines, but if there's any moral message in it, it's too hyperbolical to have any meaning for them. We have no free will, you surely think and maybe you're right. But I say, we have no free will, because if we want some, we must develop it. Leadership or managing people is not so differet from parenting. Trying to substitute this with mechanical means is very short-sighted. 

I want to study neuroscience at some later point in my life, but not this common cultural stuff. I'm interested in psychology, because I hardly understand or find any use for people without great effort and study. But as for neuroscience, I want to study the anomalous phenomena and perception, which is so freely available to me. That's something new and really worthy of research.

 

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jcgadfly wrote:Not trying to

jcgadfly wrote:
Not trying to play any shell game. The fact is that the Christians would like to see people who don't think that Jesus is the son of God dead. That includes the Muslims and the Jews. It's about time that both groups in the middle east realized who their true enemy is.

The fact that you'd like the Jews to be under Islamic tyranny is no better than wanting the Muslims to be under Jewish tyranny. Damn shame you can't see that.

Except the Palestinian and Israeli Christians. Wear the blinders a little less thick, Gadfly.

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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CORRECTION!

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
The gorilla is the fact that a state of Palestine can and presumably will take Israel before the ICJ, the International Court of Justice, for war crimes related to the occupation. Elvis has entered the building! Israelis have no defense. They are guilty as charged.

That should be the ICC the Intenational Criminal Court which deals with war crimes.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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jcgadfly wrote:Not trying to

jcgadfly wrote:

Not trying to play any shell game. The fact is that the Christians would like to see people who don't think that Jesus is the son of God dead. That includes the Muslims and the Jews. It's about time that both groups in the middle east realized who their true enemy is.

The fact that you'd like the Jews to be under Islamic tyranny is no better than wanting the Muslims to be under Jewish tyranny. Damn shame you can't see that.

 

And this ladies and gentlemen, is why I speak out so loudly about issues like this. By just dismissing the actual causes like this and having absolutely no evidence to back it up, you aren't helping and even are hindering the process towards fixing them.

 

 

 


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Vastet wrote:
Don't get too cocky. The only reason there won't be as big or bigger a line of Palestinians heading to the Hague as Israelis is because the Israelis are that much better at killing their enemies.

While I find it amusing that an admission of multiple war crimes of murder as in the Nazi killing of partisans, just what do you imagine the Palestinian crimes might be?

Please be specific and mindful of Hague V and Geneva IV in your response.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

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www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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BobSpence1 wrote:

I became aware of an important distinction between the way the Palestinians view the land issue and the way the Israeli government does, watching an episode of "HardTalk" on the BBC, where a representative from each side were interviewed together.

The Palestinian guy claimed they had long conceded the right for the Israelis to have a land of the their own.

The Israeli phrased it as their claim for a Jewish state...

He was queried on that distinction by the interviewer, but simply ignored/sidestepped it.

George Wallace never side-stepped the question of white supremacy.

Quote:
That is troubling to me on many fronts. Quite apart from the issue over borders.

I wonder what it implies, if anything, for the 20% or so of Israeli citizens who are not 'Jewish'.

It is only an honest description of the undemocratic nature of Israel where all forms of discrimination against non-Jews are found in law, government policy and in the day to day behavior of millions of jewish bigots. It is reasonable to fairly compare israeli laws with Jim Crow laws.

Quote:
I have serious issues with the Palestinians, but the arrogance of the Israeli government and all their representatives that I have heard is just so breathtaking. Their total refusal to consider any compromise, or even the faint possibility that they might have done anything at all questionable, from an ethical standpoint.

But it would make George Wallace proud.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Brian37 wrote:
Noony, why so many threads about the same subject?

The subjects are clearly stated. They are different and distinct. If you believe I am in error please tell me how the Palmer report, the Jewish tyranny over the Palestinians, and Israeli fears of war crimes convictions have in common.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Kapkao wrote:jcgadfly

Kapkao wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:
Not trying to play any shell game. The fact is that the Christians would like to see people who don't think that Jesus is the son of God dead. That includes the Muslims and the Jews. It's about time that both groups in the middle east realized who their true enemy is.

The fact that you'd like the Jews to be under Islamic tyranny is no better than wanting the Muslims to be under Jewish tyranny. Damn shame you can't see that.

Except the Palestinian and Israeli Christians. Wear the blinders a little less thick, Gadfly.

You're correct. I should've qualified it as I did earlier. I meant "American Christians". I really doubt that the American Christians care whether there are Palestinian or Israeli Christians - they just see "scary brown people".

And Cap, I rather think getting them to look at their real enemies would go a long way in stopping their bullshit gang war. Isn't that the "real issue"? Doesn't that go farther than simply picking a side?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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jcgadfly wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:
Because good American Christians want the Jews just as dead as the Muslims without getting their hands dirty?

Sic Semper Tyranis as they say in Virginia.

If they do not want to be dead stop working so hard to merit death as foreign tyrants.

BTW: I know the shell game so you can keep trying to play it all you want. I was expecting the shell game response to religious declarations by Palestinian political leaders to be a quote from some unknown Imam in Yemen as CAMERA is always doing. I don't let that happen.

Similarly when the discussion is ONLY and solely the recognition of Palestine shoddy attempts to respond as though it were about the existence of Israel and the destruction of only jewish Israelis won't happen on my watch either.

It comes as a surprise to most people to learn Czechoslovakia was wiped off the map back in 2004 because so few people have noticed. More people noticed when Yugoslavia was wiped off the map. Back in 1948 Palestine was wiped off the map by Jews no less.

So what is all this hysteria about wiping Israel off the map? Is it because Palestinian motives are more sinister than Jewish motives? If so upon what evidence? Jewish motives are about as sinister as you can get. Turn about it always fair play. Or is it another example of Jews only caring about injustice when it happens to them?

Not trying to play any shell game. The fact is that the Christians would like to see people who don't think that Jesus is the son of God dead. That includes the Muslims and the Jews. It's about time that both groups in the middle east realized who their true enemy is.

When I first began posting to RR I caused a modest dust-up by considering all religions and their members equally stupid while the regulars were merely anti-christian. I have carefully maintained neutrality in that regard. That the easiest way to demolish both Christianity and Islam is to demolish Judaism is simply the way it is.

So I really do not care about religions trying to, wanting to, or having bad attitudes towards each other. No hands are clean. Acts in the NT recounts the jewish attempt to exterminate the Christians with St. Paul starting out as an Eichman.

For the record Christian churches have always advocated conversion of the Jew. If there had been a policy of extermination they would have gone the way of the Druids and Albegensians. That is still Christian policy today which is why Israel, Saudi and other middle eastern countries have criminalized Christian conversion efforts.

Quote:
The fact that you'd like the Jews to be under Islamic tyranny is no better than wanting the Muslims to be under Jewish tyranny. Damn shame you can't see that.

I have no idea how your mind works. From all I can see from that statement is that it does not work at all. But perhaps I am just dense.

Please explain how advocating the ends of tyrannical jewish dictatorship over the Palestinians converts to "jews" living under an Islamic tyranny.

I remember George Wallace saying things like that. He had to keep the Blacks (Nubians in israeli slang) otherwise they would rule the world and rape our white women. Is that where you are coming from?

I look forward to your explanation.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Kapkao wrote:
jcgadfly wrote:
Not trying to play any shell game. The fact is that the Christians would like to see people who don't think that Jesus is the son of God dead. That includes the Muslims and the Jews. It's about time that both groups in the middle east realized who their true enemy is.

The fact that you'd like the Jews to be under Islamic tyranny is no better than wanting the Muslims to be under Jewish tyranny. Damn shame you can't see that.

Except the Palestinian and Israeli Christians. Wear the blinders a little less thick, Gadfly.

Don't forget the Palestinian Christians who suffer no legal disabilities as they do in Israel. In Israel the Christians are "Arabs" too.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:jcgadfly

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:
Because good American Christians want the Jews just as dead as the Muslims without getting their hands dirty?

Sic Semper Tyranis as they say in Virginia.

If they do not want to be dead stop working so hard to merit death as foreign tyrants.

BTW: I know the shell game so you can keep trying to play it all you want. I was expecting the shell game response to religious declarations by Palestinian political leaders to be a quote from some unknown Imam in Yemen as CAMERA is always doing. I don't let that happen.

Similarly when the discussion is ONLY and solely the recognition of Palestine shoddy attempts to respond as though it were about the existence of Israel and the destruction of only jewish Israelis won't happen on my watch either.

It comes as a surprise to most people to learn Czechoslovakia was wiped off the map back in 2004 because so few people have noticed. More people noticed when Yugoslavia was wiped off the map. Back in 1948 Palestine was wiped off the map by Jews no less.

So what is all this hysteria about wiping Israel off the map? Is it because Palestinian motives are more sinister than Jewish motives? If so upon what evidence? Jewish motives are about as sinister as you can get. Turn about it always fair play. Or is it another example of Jews only caring about injustice when it happens to them?

Not trying to play any shell game. The fact is that the Christians would like to see people who don't think that Jesus is the son of God dead. That includes the Muslims and the Jews. It's about time that both groups in the middle east realized who their true enemy is.

When I first began posting to RR I caused a modest dust-up by considering all religions and their members equally stupid while the regulars were merely anti-christian. I have carefully maintained neutrality in that regard. That the easiest way to demolish both Christianity and Islam is to demolish Judaism is simply the way it is.

So I really do not care about religions trying to, wanting to, or having bad attitudes towards each other. No hands are clean. Acts in the NT recounts the jewish attempt to exterminate the Christians with St. Paul starting out as an Eichman.

For the record Christian churches have always advocated conversion of the Jew. If there had been a policy of extermination they would have gone the way of the Druids and Albegensians. That is still Christian policy today which is why Israel, Saudi and other middle eastern countries have criminalized Christian conversion efforts.

Quote:
The fact that you'd like the Jews to be under Islamic tyranny is no better than wanting the Muslims to be under Jewish tyranny. Damn shame you can't see that.

I have no idea how your mind works. From all I can see from that statement is that it does not work at all. But perhaps I am just dense.

Please explain how advocating the ends of tyrannical jewish dictatorship over the Palestinians converts to "jews" living under an Islamic tyranny.

I remember George Wallace saying things like that. He had to keep the Blacks (Nubians in israeli slang) otherwise they would rule the world and rape our white women. Is that where you are coming from?

I look forward to your explanation.

Nothing special to explain - My mind raced past my typing skills and my hands couldn't catch up. I meant to say "]The fact that you'd like the Muslims to be under Islamic tyranny is no better than wanting the Muslims to be under Jewish tyranny. Damn shame you can't see that.

I beg your pardon.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


A_Nony_Mouse
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jcgadfly wrote:
...Nothing special to explain - My mind raced past my typing skills and my hands couldn't catch up. I meant to say "]The fact that you'd like the Muslims to be under Islamic tyranny is no better than wanting the Muslims to be under Jewish tyranny. Damn shame you can't see that.

What happens to Palestinians is their business. In no way does it justify the continuation of Jewish tyranny.

The hubris of Jews being good for the poor, benighted Muslims has been a theme in zionism from the beginning. It has always been a disgusting attitude. Clearly history has shown the Palestinians do not have as high an opinion of Jews as Jews have of themselves.

Death to all tyrants!

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml