9-11 Cross

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9-11 Cross

 What's your take on this subject ? Scalia claims that the Cross is a secular symbol. 

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I don't think so - that it

I don't think so - that it is secular, that is.

But I also don't think anyone would be able to talk them out of it.

 

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Ken G. wrote: What's your

Ken G. wrote:

 What's your take on this subject ? Scalia claims that the Cross is a secular symbol. 

A secular symbol of what? Roman torture devices?

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I found an interesting

I found an interesting perspective

 

http://mirandaceleste.net/2011/08/05/an-embarrassing-lawsuit/

 

It depends.

 

Is the cross just another display? Or is it the center piece of the exhibit? That would affect whether or not it's legal and constitutional to display it.

 

 

On another note, a cross coming from the rubble of a building with cross beam designs? Proof of jebus indeed.

 

 

 

 

 

 


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Cpt_pineapple wrote: I found an interesting perspective

 Yes ! that was a very good perspective,thank-you. I dig reading Jacoby's books also. 

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natural wrote:A secular

natural wrote:
A secular symbol of what? Roman torture devices?

My thoughts were similar, mainly replacing "torture" with 'execution'.

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Personally, we have better

Personally, we have better things to devote our energy to. And isn't the memorial on private property anyway? Paid for by private funds?


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natural wrote:Ken G.

natural wrote:

Ken G. wrote:

 What's your take on this subject ? Scalia claims that the Cross is a secular symbol. 

A secular symbol of what? Roman torture devices?

 Roman torture device actually looked more like big letter T. That vertical piece of plank making the cross would be too much wasteful for Roman efficiency. The fact that Jesus is usually portrayed on a classical looking cross, points at deeper symbolism.

 Cross is an ancient symbol, probably religious/occult, but originally not Christian. I think Sumerians used cross in a circle as a symbol for Earth. Also, everyone who observed astronomy and precession movement, used the symbol of cross to mark the opposing equinoxes and solstices in relation to star constellations. At this time there wasn't a clear difference between religion, science and occult symbolics. 

Cross itself became a symbol of Earth, matter, materiality, physical existence and in certain occult meaning, a symbol of renouncing this all and achieving a certain perfection. 

According to books on esotericism, in our energetic body there are protective membranes on spine between chakras, working as protective seals. They gradually dissolve as the man advances spiritually. In head there are two such etheric membranes, intersecting each other vertically and horizontally and thereby creating a symbol of cross, when viewed face to face. These are the finest of them all and dissolve last. Getting rid of these seals is marking of a great initiation... This is why some other people also use the symbol of cross. 

Catholicism has even more mumbo jumbo around these lines, but I have no idea if any Catholic ever was properly explained that extremely figurative symbolism.

 

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Luminon wrote:natural

Luminon wrote:

natural wrote:

Ken G. wrote:

 What's your take on this subject ? Scalia claims that the Cross is a secular symbol. 

A secular symbol of what? Roman torture devices?

 Roman torture device actually looked more like big letter T. That vertical piece of plank making the cross would be too much wasteful for Roman efficiency. The fact that Jesus is usually portrayed on a classical looking cross, points at deeper symbolism.

The word is 'crucifixion', not 'T-bone-ification'.

Quote:
Cross is an ancient symbol, probably religious/occult, but originally not Christian.

The Christian cross is not the same symbol, it has an extended lower part, making it look like a lowercase t, rather than like the typical + shape of other crosses.

 

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p { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }

p { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }

The cross is a couple of chunks of metal which bear titled ownership. The owner of the cross is the owner of the land it might end up on. So what is the question here?

 

I am seeing at least two and possibly three first amendment issues here.

 

Sure, ground zero is an historic location, nobody will deny that. It is also private property. Churches are private property. They display crosses all the time.

 

I am not seeing any action here. Is there an “atheist war on Christmas”? In Bill O'Reilly's mind sure but the tides come in and the tides go out with never a miscommunication.

 

I do not have a war on the tides.

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The bullshit "secular"

The bullshit "secular" argument by the Christians who want it there are laughable. They even try to point out that there are other displays to other religions there as well. BUT why is it this cross is the biggest and most prominent? Inclusive? Hardly, it is the same back of the bus attitude. Otherwise there would be an equal size display of the Jewish and Muslim and even atom symbol.

The simple solution is to get this cross off the property and take it to the private church a block away and have it displayed on that property.

It is the World Trade Center, not the Christian trade center.

I am sick of Christians, not all, but the ones who insist on treating any memorial, not just this one, as if Christians are the only ones who suffer in the world.

That attack affected not just Christians and not even just Americans. Over 80 nationalities and all the world's religions had dead represented. It should not be a monument to one religion, but a reminder to humanity of what humans should not do to each other.

This display is just as a bad to me as when some Jews today still milk the holocaust in Israel when even most of their citizens when polled disagree with the settlements.

"I'm the only label that knows what suffering is".

No, be it the holocaust, 9/11, slavery, genocide of Native Americans, human history has always been plagued with human suffering. I am tired of labels being used as an excuse to claim the virtue of the oppressed.

Human suffering is human suffering and gang tagging this memorial with religious symbols is arrogant and divisive when done like this. "Christian suffering is more important than other suffering".

We are all humans. Any display needs to be neutral and or inclusive and not lopsided, otherwise keep it all out and just stick to the names of the dead.

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p { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }

The cross is a couple of chunks of metal which bear titled ownership. The owner of the cross is the owner of the land it might end up on. So what is the question here?

 

I am seeing at least two and possibly three first amendment issues here.

 

Sure, ground zero is an historic location, nobody will deny that. It is also private property. Churches are private property. They display crosses all the time.

 

I am not seeing any action here. Is there an “atheist war on Christmas”? In Bill O'Reilly's mind sure but the tides come in and the tides go out with never a miscommunication.

 

I do not have a war on the tides.

 

You want to claim that because it is private property the event has no impact as to the say of the entire city and country?

This is stupid. Thomas Jefferson wrote lots of private letters outside any legal law or paperwork he sighed. I think beyond a certain point, people and events once beyond a small scale become the property of the public. I Think you would find it absurd for the family of MLK to demand royalties from the New Memorial because when he was shot he was a private citizen.

This was a historical event, history does not belong to one person. The other aspect is even if this is on private property it is still publicly funded.

Otherwise anytime I quote Jefferson I should pay his descendants royalties.

Otherwise if you are claiming property rights then if the Cross stays, then the government should not give them a dime.

There are only TWO viable fair ways to deal with this. Let it all in in equal size display, or keep it neutral. Otherwise if you are going to claim private property, then like I said, if that is the case, then the government should not give ground zero a dime.

 

I am for the private building owners as far as re building and renting or selling space. But this event was public and any memorial should reflect the event that affected more than just the people who owned the property and more than any selfish desires of one label.

 

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p { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }

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OK Brian, anyone who would deny public impact represents insanity on roller skates. That and to the extent that public money is involved, there are rules that must be followed.

 

However, a couple of bits of metal that ended up looking something similar to a cross were originally purchased by some prick millionaire who got rich on the deal. I am not exactly clear on how the title tracks and google fails to enlighten on that matter. The insurance contract was held by Larry “Christ Killer” Silverstein and some of the land has no traceable title.

 

Still, while every opinion deserves a place in public discourse, this does not grant every opinion automatic and identical validity.

 

Another item that is likely to go in the museum is a bronze statue of the fire fighters who raised the flag the next day. However, there has been debate over the actual image. Umm, it is a famous photograph and akin the the flag raising at Iwo Jima. That and NYC firemen are mostly wops and mics.

 

Yet there is a contingent that wants the statue to be “a symbol of American inclusiveness” and to display a spic, a chink and a nigger. Not that there were any in the photo, just that we can create a statue which happens to be a lie. Do we even need to have that conversation?

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This doesnt really bother

This doesnt really bother me.... much.... But to be honest I think we'd be better served to choose our battles more carefully.

 

We have bigger fish to fry.


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Rich Woods wrote:This doesnt

Rich Woods wrote:

This doesnt really bother me.... much.... But to be honest I think we'd be better served to choose our battles more carefully.

 

We have bigger fish to fry.

We have lots of fish to fry, to say this is not important, is I think a bad thing to ignore. We all agree here that religion mixing with politics is dangerous and divisive. While freedom of religion SHOULD be protected, allowing Christians to use public funding to maintain religious memorials on national memorial sites is wink and nod to the favoritism our government unconstitutionally gives Christianity.

All I am asking is to go with the neutrality the First Amendment demands. In this case, as with many, I see them having only TWO choices. You let it all in AT EQUAL SIZE AND DISPLAY, or you keep it all out. The fact that the cross is the biggest religious display on that site is promoting the same back of the bus "separate but equal" second class status. It is bad enough that anyone of any label in this country still thinks that way, but it is an INSULT to all citizens who died that day to pretend it is not an attempt to display a pecking order.

So unless these assholes are willing to let Jews and Muslims and even atheists to have an equal size display, they are nothing but hypocrites and liers who don't give two shits about the Statue of Liberty that says "Bring me your tired huddled masses"

Somehow these selfish pricks take that as "Bring me your tired huddled Christians".

I'm sick of this shit. By having the biggest display on that site they are taking a human tragedy and selfishly saying that those who are not Christians suffered less. If they cared, which they don''t, they would make an inclusive display, not just a giant cross to assert their dominance on a murder crime scene where people of all labels died. They are shitting on the memories of non-Christians who died as well.

It is important because this selfish display is a reflection of those in this country who think that our politics and our constitution was ripped out of the bible. It IS important to address this because it is a reflection of our politics.

 

 

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I'm not worried about it.

I'm not worried about it. Atheists need to pick their battles better - people like Silverman give atheists a bad name, because if atheists are so enlightened then why don't we have better things to do with our time than whine about crosses and waste money on anti-Christmas billboards that could be used to feed starving children in Haiti? I wouldn't be surpised if he's paid off by Fox News, just so Bill O'Reilly can have ammunition for his "war on Christmas" crap.

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Recovering fundamentalist

Recovering fundamentalist wrote:

I'm not worried about it. Atheists need to pick their battles better - people like Silverman give atheists a bad name, because if atheists are so enlightened then why don't we have better things to do with our time than whine about crosses and waste money on anti-Christmas billboards that could be used to feed starving children in Haiti? I wouldn't be surpised if he's paid off by Fox News, just so Bill O'Reilly can have ammunition for his "war on Christmas" crap.

Rick Perry's prayer rally and Bachman's "Joke"(wink and nod to the right) are why things like the 9/11 cross is important. They are the ones who support a monopoly on public display and they are the ones who use religion to distract the public from the fleecing of America.

As long as religion is useful to politicians, to say that public displays of religion funded by the tax payers is not important is to allow them to continue to piss on a bush like a lion marking it's territory.

Government neutrality is of the utmost importance. Especially with religion.

 

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Brian37 wrote: to piss on a bush like a lion marking it's terr..

 Right On! It is a BIG DEAL. 

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Brian37 wrote:Recovering

Brian37 wrote:

Recovering fundamentalist wrote:

I'm not worried about it. Atheists need to pick their battles better - people like Silverman give atheists a bad name, because if atheists are so enlightened then why don't we have better things to do with our time than whine about crosses and waste money on anti-Christmas billboards that could be used to feed starving children in Haiti? I wouldn't be surpised if he's paid off by Fox News, just so Bill O'Reilly can have ammunition for his "war on Christmas" crap.

Rick Perry's prayer rally and Bachman's "Joke"(wink and nod to the right) are why things like the 9/11 cross is important. They are the ones who support a monopoly on public display and they are the ones who use religion to distract the public from the fleecing of America.

As long as religion is useful to politicians, to say that public displays of religion funded by the tax payers is not important is to allow them to continue to piss on a bush like a lion marking it's territory.

Government neutrality is of the utmost importance. Especially with religion.

 

But the cross was a piece of metal left over from the 9/11 rubble that happened to be cross-shaped, no one built it, so I think of it as just a monument. It's not the same as a religious group having built a cross and then campaigned to have it placed there.

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Kapkao wrote:natural wrote:A

Kapkao wrote:

natural wrote:
A secular symbol of what? Roman torture devices?

My thoughts were similar, mainly replacing "torture" with 'execution'.

The point of it is to make the execution slow and excruciatingly painful, so it is definitely a torture device. If you cut them down early, they may even survive.

A sword is all you need for execution - much quicker and simpler.

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Even a big rock would be

Even a big rock would be more humane than crucifixion.

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Recovering fundamentalist

Recovering fundamentalist wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Recovering fundamentalist wrote:

I'm not worried about it. Atheists need to pick their battles better - people like Silverman give atheists a bad name, because if atheists are so enlightened then why don't we have better things to do with our time than whine about crosses and waste money on anti-Christmas billboards that could be used to feed starving children in Haiti? I wouldn't be surpised if he's paid off by Fox News, just so Bill O'Reilly can have ammunition for his "war on Christmas" crap.

Rick Perry's prayer rally and Bachman's "Joke"(wink and nod to the right) are why things like the 9/11 cross is important. They are the ones who support a monopoly on public display and they are the ones who use religion to distract the public from the fleecing of America.

As long as religion is useful to politicians, to say that public displays of religion funded by the tax payers is not important is to allow them to continue to piss on a bush like a lion marking it's territory.

Government neutrality is of the utmost importance. Especially with religion.

 

But the cross was a piece of metal left over from the 9/11 rubble that happened to be cross-shaped, no one built it, so I think of it as just a monument. It's not the same as a religious group having built a cross and then campaigned to have it placed there.

It was not semetrical(sp) they had to cut it to shape. It was "cross like" but not a perfect cross. Secondly, I am sure if the responders really had looked hard enough they could have found plenty of plus shaped and cross shaped dibree in other things as well. What they did is no different than seeing shapes in the clouds.

And these same people who "discovered" this "cross" in the I beam, what intention do they have to honor other dead with other religious labels at the same scale as the cross they "found". NONE, it is a monument to Christianity, not to all the dead.

Every time our country has a national tragedy, Christians piss on it as if no one else in this country is capable of empathy or can suffer pain. Otherwise there would be monuments the same size as that cross next to it to other labels as well.

I don't care if they found mickey mouse burnt into a piece of concrete. We are not honoring one religion or even one nation. That day should not be used as a billboard for one religion. It should serve as a reminder to all of humanity that this is something humans should not do to each other. All gang tagging it does is serve to divide humanity more.

The towers were not called "The Christian Trade Center" and Christians should not get to dominate that memorial with the biggest display when over 80 nationalities died and all the worlds major religions had dead represented. It is a day of mourning for all of humanity, not just one religion.

 

 

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Brian37 wrote:It was not

Brian37 wrote:
It was not semetrical(sp) they had to cut it to shape. 

 

Proof or it did not happen.

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Brian37 wrote:The Towers were not called ~

 "The Christian Trade Center" and Christians should not get to dominate that memorial with the biggest display when over 80 nationalities died and all of the worlds major religions had dead represented. It is a day of mourning for all of humanity, not just one religion.  ~    I could not have said it any better than that, you tell them !

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What I think should happen

What I think should happen is contracting an artist to sculpt out of wreckage likenesses of uniformed firefighters, cops, and other emergency responders. Those people gave their lives (or at least risked their lives) trying to save people at the scene. That'd be the best possible monument.

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BobSpence1 wrote:The point

BobSpence1 wrote:
The point of it is to make the execution slow and excruciatingly painful, so it is definitely a torture device. If you cut them down early, they may even survive.

A sword is all you need for execution - much quicker and simpler.

Yes, you're right about crucifixion, but I already knew that the aim Roman penal behaviors were aimed to be as gruesome and terrifying as possible. The one about tying the hooves of several live horses on to a person and then lashing the horses so that they rip the person apart comes to mind.

As for only needing a sword... well, for  French revolutionaries "a sword is all you need", yet they went with the Guillotine anyhow. And at the time, the Guillotine was considered the most humane method of execution. A sword can miss, and hit a place less vital... like the shoulder, or even the nose/maxilla. Of course, I'm being a bit trivial.

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Lets face it, there are lots

Lets face it, there are lots of christian things which have crossed over into secular culture. Sure the cross probably isn't one of them but I am open to it becoming recognised as a non religious symbol as forgivness or mercy or whatever. We have lots of symbols for lots of things, recognising the cross as a non religious symbol is just another natural step pushing religion to the outskirts of society. Although people would have to accept it as non religious first and not just trying to use trickery to keep a religious symbol up.

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