Origins of Jesus in Astrology

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Origins of Jesus in Astrology

Interested in the accuracy of these videos. I was aware of Horus, etc. But have not heard about the star Sirius lining up with the Orions belt (the three kings) pointing to the sun. does the sun take 3 days to change it course in December and does the southern cross point to it? What about all the connection to astrology? Anything else? Pretty cool video. We should start a superpac and air it on TV continuously during the month of December.

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Their astronomy is not very good. First off, because Orion and Sirius are fixed stars, there is no change in how they align. Second, I checked the claims with my astronomy software and the alignment is not very precise. A line drawn through the belt of Orion misses Sirius by a couple of degrees. Enough so that it is visibly bad to the naked eye.

 

You really would think that people who depend on watching the sky to know basic things like when to plant and if she really does like you would take better care with their observations. Also, the line through the belt does not quite hit the rising sun dead on.

 

Also, the Southern cross coordinates don't line up that way. Orion will peak roughly 60 degrees above the Horizon in Jerusalem around midnight. The Souther Cross will peak at 30 degrees above the horizon over 6 hours later. The the informal astronomical tern for that is “in the soup” meaning that it is not really visible around sun rise and only just barely at all a couple of hours before.

 

The thing is that while you can pick any three things in the sky and make a triangle of them, it just cannot be a nice right triangle done that way.

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Horus???

 

 

 

                         As far as I know  Horus was  born to the Widow Isis.  Since the ancient meaning of the word Virgin was ' young unmarried girl' and the modern meaning is "no sex yet',  Isis was no Virgin.  Horus faught meny battles against the god of darkness SET but he never died and he certainly was not crucified.

 

                         Mary has a name does not mean 'virgin' nor 'bread' ; the name means 'bitter' 'bitterness' or even 'rebellious' in short "bitch".

 

                         The aspects of the jesus charactor come from the god Mithra of the Persian Zoastrian religion for the most part and several other gods but not from Horus.

 

 

 

 

     

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 thanks guys.The astronomy

 thanks guys.

The astronomy part seemed in the "too good to be true" category.

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

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 As for the origin of

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Mithras

 Yes, this is yet another example of the lengths atheists will go to "disprove religion", it is not the first video of its kind rife with lies.  Interesting you would point out the obvious fallacy of this video yet turn immediately to Mithras, of which virtually NOTHING factual is known about its origins, although scholarly opinion is slowly turning to it being from the first/second century. If this proves to be right, then it will be from the time of Christ...might want to spend some more time reading before throwing out BS to the masses, if that matters to you.


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Mike H

Mike H wrote:

 Yes, this is yet another example of the lengths atheists will go to "disprove religion", it is not the first video of its kind rife with lies.  Interesting you would point out the obvious fallacy of this video yet turn immediately to Mithras, of which virtually NOTHING factual is known about its origins, although scholarly opinion is slowly turning to it being from the first/second century. If this proves to be right, then it will be from the time of Christ...might want to spend some more time reading before throwing out BS to the masses, if that matters to you.

Uh. Mike H. Did you read the thread? We atheist looked at it and called BS as well. We don't want myth we want truth. Religion has a lot of myth, so there is no need to add distortion like  what the guy in the video did.

Why don't you register and join in and keep us straight?

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

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Jeffrick

Jeffrick wrote:

 

 

 

                         As far as I know  Horus was  born to the Widow Isis.  Since the ancient meaning of the word Virgin was ' young unmarried girl' and the modern meaning is "no sex yet',  Isis was no Virgin.  Horus faught meny battles against the god of darkness SET but he never died and he certainly was not crucified.

 

                         Mary has a name does not mean 'virgin' nor 'bread' ; the name means 'bitter' 'bitterness' or even 'rebellious' in short "bitch".

 

                         The aspects of the jesus charactor come from the god Mithra of the Persian Zoastrian religion for the most part and several other gods but not from Horus.

 

     

There  is some similiarity between the iconography of Isis/Horus and the familiar Virgin/Jesus imagery that exists upon the stained glass windows of many churches. (I used to have some of these images saved, but have lost them, if I can find the links I will post them).

Outside of that and the fact that some people speculate about the name Set evolving into the modern day Satan, (Set was the Egyptian version of the devil, i.e. he was a god of destruction, darkness, etc.) any similiarity to Egypt and the Jesus myth end.

In the old Egyptian legend, Set murdered Osiris, the husband of Isis. Isis searched the world until she found the mutilated body of Osiris, pieced him back together, created a phallus made of gold, brought him back to life and gave birth to Horus through the sexual union of her resurrected husband.

Some people have been known to point out that an angel visits Mary in the bible and the spiritual circumstances of the Isis/Osiris union as possible similiarities, but that is not unique to ancient legend so much.

For instance, in one of the legends of Merlin, he was supposedly born out of a union of mortal woman and a dream-like man that visited her in the night.

In the Greek legend of Perseus, he was born out of the union of god and woman. Same with Theseus.

While, none of the above legends coincide with virgin births, 12 followers, crucifixicions, or three wise men, I think you can see the patterns.

The idea of someone born with supernatural powers from a god/mortal relationship is certainly not a new concept and is certainly not peculiar to Christianity.

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Lol. We hardly need to go

Lol. We hardly need to go stretching the truth to disprove religion, Religion disproves itself. Constantly. It's the nature of religion. Laughing out loud

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Mike H wrote: Yes, this is

Mike H wrote:

 Yes, this is yet another example of the lengths atheists will go to "disprove religion", it is not the first video of its kind rife with lies.  Interesting you would point out the obvious fallacy of this video yet turn immediately to Mithras, of which virtually NOTHING factual is known about its origins, although scholarly opinion is slowly turning to it being from the first/second century. If this proves to be right, then it will be from the time of Christ...might want to spend some more time reading before throwing out BS to the masses, if that matters to you.

Christianity : The belief that a cosmic Jewish zombie who was also his own father can make you live forever, if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically accept him as your master.So, he can remove an evil force that has been present since the beginning of humanity because a rib woman was asked by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.

I'd have to go to GREAT lengths to demonstrate that story is bullshit wouldn't I ?

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^ I rest my case.

^ I rest my case. Sticking out tongue

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What Harley said

^^^

^^^

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


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Vastet wrote:Lol. We hardly

Vastet wrote:
Lol. We hardly need to go stretching the truth to disprove religion, Religion disproves itself. Constantly. It's the nature of religion. :D

I thought the same thing.  So the 689th reason that religion is bullshit is not a good proof against religion... oh well there are thousands of other ways to disprove Yahweh and Allah.

 

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Disprove religion

 Huh, then you'd think it would be gone by now.  I guess it only disproves itself to 'smart' people.

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Great lengths

 Only if it had centuries of support and millions of individuals with experience claiming it's validity, otherwise no your typical 'Rational Response' mockery should suffice.  

 

Ps; interesting that your tag on faith/proof in an asylum is from a crazy guy...

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join...

 Did, but only the entertainment value.  No delusion that I can set the deluded straight Smiling


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OldandTired wrote: Huh,

OldandTired wrote:

 Huh, then you'd think it would be gone by now.  I guess it only disproves itself to 'smart' people.

Proud Canadian

If such were true, then the flat Earth society would not exist. But it does, so clearly your premise is unfounded.

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OldandTired wrote: Only if

OldandTired wrote:

 Only if it had centuries of support and millions of individuals with experience claiming it's validity, otherwise no your typical 'Rational Response' mockery should suffice.  

 

Your point is ?

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It's no great mystery why so

It's no great mystery why so many people are religious, it has a strong emotional appeal, and most people are not inclined to question it seriously enough to make the contradictions and inconsistencies really clear to them. As well as all the social and peer pressure to be a 'believer' in strongly religious societies.

And it does provide 'answers' to many aspects of life, which satisfy many people, even if they often don't stand up to critical scrutiny.

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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It's no great mystery why so

 Nice pat answer although I was expecting "because so many people are scared of death" - lol

I have to heartily disagree, from a personal perspective only though.  I am not emotional, am actually somewhat uncomfortable with the crying and hugging that goes on in most of the churchy groups.  I have done nothing but question since I was converted some 12 years ago in my late 30's, read most of the popular atheist drivel (and remain astounded that people even talk about the 'Four Horsemen'), attended a well respected graduate seminary on and off, and consider the evidence presented 'open mindedly' (as opposed to nearly every atheist I meet).  as for peer pressure, not a chance, I grew up un-churched in a very worldly environment, did not 'hit the bottom' or anything of the like.  

I would actually suggest that your points above apply more strictly to the average atheist than religious person, especially as the world becomes more secular everyday.  You are simply bowing the pressures you are inundated with on a daily basis without actually considering the effect they are having on the development of your thought processes.  

 

 

Because you do not believe does not make it untrue.
"The blindness of humanity is so great that people are actually proud of their blindness."
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Huh

The "Canadian" part must be Quebec because we seem to be struggling with english.  Please feel free to compare the demographics of the Flat Earth society to religion, Flat Earth is , for all intents and purposes gone, religion is not even close.  My premise is clearly correct, your refusal to accept it remains irrelevant.

 

Because you do not believe does not make it untrue.
"The blindness of humanity is so great that people are actually proud of their blindness."
"Our country , now appears, as at no other time in her history, like a lumbering, bellicose, dim-witted giant." Sam Harris


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OldandTired wrote: Nice pat

 

OldandTired wrote:

 Nice pat answer although I was expecting "because so many people are scared of death" - lol

I have to heartily disagree, from a personal perspective only though.  I am not emotional, am actually somewhat uncomfortable with the crying and hugging that goes on in most of the churchy groups.  I have done nothing but question since I was converted some 12 years ago in my late 30's, read most of the popular atheist drivel (and remain astounded that people even talk about the 'Four Horsemen'), attended a well respected graduate seminary on and off, and consider the evidence presented 'open mindedly' (as opposed to nearly every atheist I meet).  as for peer pressure, not a chance, I grew up un-churched in a very worldly environment, did not 'hit the bottom' or anything of the like.  

I would actually suggest that your points above apply more strictly to the average atheist than religious person, especially as the world becomes more secular everyday.  You are simply bowing the pressures you are inundated with on a daily basis without actually considering the effect they are having on the development of your thought processes.  

 

Since your attitude is not representative of the majority of believers, by your own admission, you are not in the majority of believers. your personal account in no way contradicts my response. Certainly most people, most of the time , are driven by emotions. Pure reason does not provide a 'reason' for wanting to continue living. It is emotional rewards, urges and desires that do. That is a rational assessment. Such unusual and in some ways more extreme positions are often observed in later life converts to a belief, so your attitude is not that surprising. 

When you consciously decided to convert, rather than imbibing your faith with your mother's milk, there often remains unresolved conflict incompletely buried in your memory and subconscious. You seem to be displaying the symptoms.

BTW, 'fear of death' is in fact a significant component of the fears that Religion claims to answer.

My points cannot apply to the average atheist, since atheism does not provide any pat answers to the problems of life and death.

Is rejection of the illogical, non-answer to 'where did we come from' referred to as 'God' what you mean by 'close-minded'?

Your assessment of me "You are simply bowing the pressures you are inundated with on a daily basis without actually considering the effect they are having on the development of your thought processes. " could not be further from th truth in my case. If you are, as you seem to be, applying that as appicable to atheists generally, you are utterly and demonstrably wrong. You would only need to actually follow a number of atheist podcasts with an open mind to realize that, there is much disagreement about almost everything, apart form the non-existence of God, among atheists. 

I have been following with great interest the insights into the processes of our own minds being achieved by research in neuro-science, psychology, social science, in recent years. While the introspection I have always been prone to is further encouraged by listening to such accounts, and it can really help in everyday life, allowing to catch faulty 'first impressions' before they get embedded as my memories of something, I almost have to force myself to 'switch my conscious brain off occasionally', and relax, allow the sub-conscious to get stuff sorted.

Part of your gross misunderstanding of, and hostility to, non-religious ideas may come from reading too much of the 'popular atheist' publications, rather than going more deeply into the writings of sceptical and rational thinkers, and related science. Hitchens can be problematic, he is more eloquent than deep, Dawkins can get a little simplistic away from his scientific training in biology, but Harris and especially Dennett are very worth-while to read, especially Dennett on wider issues.

The Bible is far more deserving of the label 'drivel' here. 

To characterise any of the works of the 'Four Horsemen' as "drivel" reveals a pathologically hostile attitude to any questioning of your position, hinting at an underlying insecurity in its foundation. (Bit of pop-psych there   ) . The fact that the term "Four Horseman" came from those reacting against their publications, should have you directing your astonishment at your fellow believers.

So, do you actually have any defense of your beliefs, apart from childishly throwing our reasons for dismissing religious belief back at us - "and so are you! Nyah, Nya!".

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

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OldandTired wrote:   You

OldandTired wrote:

 

  You are simply bowing the pressures you are inundated with on a daily basis without actually considering the effect they are having on the development of your thought processes.  

 

 

A blanket statement and a naked assertion.

I did not become an Atheist, after a devoutly religious life because of social pressures. I became an Atheist because of both personal reasons and the fact that I could not accept the absolute ridiculous dogmas of the faith that I was raised in.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
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Nice pat

"Certainly most people, most of the time , are driven by emotions. Pure reason does not provide a 'reason' for wanting to continue living. It is emotional rewards, urges and desires that do. That is a rational assessment."

Out of my area of expertise, I will bow to yours. I would have simply left off at urges.

"Such unusual and in some ways more extreme positions are often observed in later life converts to a belief, so your attitude is not that surprising."

Agreed, but I wonder why that is? What would the "Rational Response" for it be???

"When you consciously decided to convert, rather than imbibing your faith with your mother's milk, there often remains unresolved conflict incompletely buried in your memory and subconscious. You seem to be displaying the symptoms."

LOL, not sure what 'symptoms' I am displaying but your psychoanalysis is off the mark I think.

"BTW, 'fear of death' is in fact a significant component of the fears that Religion claims to answer."

Yep, I understand that, just no concern for me and seems to be the 'popular' atheist response.

"My points cannot apply to the average atheist, since atheism does not provide any pat answers to the problems of life and death."

Of course it does, "shit happens" is clearly an answer. To say there is no answer is clearly an answer, it simply may not be a cuddly-huggy one like religion offers.

"Is rejection of the illogical, non-answer to 'where did we come from' referred to as 'God' what you mean by 'close-minded'?"

Almost, the "close mindedness" I refer to is that lack of ability, or interest in entertaining that there simply may be things you/we do not or cannot understand.

"Your assessment of me "You are simply bowing the pressures you are inundated with on a daily basis without actually considering the effect they are having on the development of your thought processes. " could not be further from th truth in my case. If you are, as you seem to be, applying that as appicable to atheists generally, you are utterly and demonstrably wrong. You would only need to actually follow a number of atheist podcasts with an open mind to realize that, there is much disagreement about almost everything, apart form the non-existence of God, among atheists."

You may want to consider a little further back on the cultural influence issue, an "atheist podcast" will simply show me more who have been influenced by the factors the rest of us have. Hobbesian philosophy has had a deeper and more far reaching influence than we are ready to accept.

"Part of your gross misunderstanding of, and hostility to, non-religious ideas may come from reading too much of the 'popular atheist' publications, rather than going more deeply into the writings of sceptical and rational thinkers, and related science. Hitchens can be problematic, he is more eloquent than deep, Dawkins can get a little simplistic away from his scientific training in biology, but Harris and especially Dennett are very worth-while to read, especially Dennett on wider issues."

I honestly have no hostility towards any of them (or you for that matter), it just amazes me that people can refer to Sam Harris as "worthwhile reading". I have read all 4 of them and find them all significantly inadequate at the point of their arguments, I agree with your assessments of them outside of the worthwhile part Smiling

"The Bible is far more deserving of the label 'drivel' here."

Can't agree of course.

To characterise any of the works of the 'Four Horsemen' as "drivel" reveals a pathologically hostile attitude to any questioning of your position, hinting at an underlying insecurity in its foundation. (Bit of pop-psych there ) .

Lol, nope to use your phrase from above you "couldn't be further from the truth." I love actual questioning of my position, I think it is important for me to question it diligently and factually. As C.S.Lewis wrote, "it is either the most important thing in the world or it means absolutely nothing." If it means nothing I want to stop wasting my time...haven't been able to yet.

"The fact that the term "Four Horseman" came from those reacting against their publications, should have you directing your astonishment at your fellow believers."
Huh, heard Dawkins use it one night when i was listening to him and was sure he used it in a way that made me think they coined it themselves. Oh well, again i will bow to your superior knowledge in that field.

"So, do you actually have any defense of your beliefs, apart from childishly throwing our reasons for dismissing religious belief back at us - "and so are you! Nyah, Nya!"."

Huh? I thought that was the accepted reasoning on this site? I have yet to see any contrary evidence provided other than "we are right because we say we are." If you are suggesting that the burden of proof lies with the believer I'm not sure that I would agree but I might be tempted to jump in. What I usually find is that these arguments always end up with "I have faith because I have faith" and the Atheist equivalent "I don't believe because I don't like what the bible says or that guy who 'hates fags' believe." I think it is far to complicated a subject to have a sincere debate in a public forum (hold that finger! lol).
The only 'proof" I have to offer is that I find the biblical text makes sense when considered in its entirety and in the context of history. And believe me, the people who knew me pre-40 are only slightly more surprised at my position today than I am Smiling
I regularly tell people that I would not have entered the church that I did if I knew I was going to come out a believer.

Because you do not believe does not make it untrue.
"The blindness of humanity is so great that people are actually proud of their blindness."
"Our country , now appears, as at no other time in her history, like a lumbering, bellicose, dim-witted giant." Sam Harris


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OldandTired wrote:The

OldandTired wrote:

The "Canadian" part must be Quebec because we seem to be struggling with english.  Please feel free to compare the demographics of the Flat Earth society to religion, Flat Earth is , for all intents and purposes gone, religion is not even close.  My premise is clearly correct, your refusal to accept it remains irrelevant.

 

First the world is becoming more and more secular in one post and now you mention that religion is not even close in another.

Quite alot of religious leaders have spoken about the vanishing numbers in their pews and the decline of church membership.

Of course, quite alot of people in today's world try to dodge the bullet by using that "I am spiritual but not religious" meme that has seem to have caught on so well.

However, the churches are in decline. Now of course, unless something really drastic happens, there will be no way that religion will totally vanish anytime soon or within the next few hundred years. They'll probably do the same thing that the churches have been doing for thousands of years. They will simply tweak a few things around, change their stances a little bit and try to continually tell the same old lie that there faith has always been the right way and never changed.

The early christians, the christians of the dark ages, the 19th century and of today are radically different. Religion also has to conform to evolution and change. Otherwise, it would have long been extinct. Which is too bad that it is not.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
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OldandTired wrote: Huh? I

OldandTired wrote:
Huh? I thought that was the accepted reasoning on this site? I have yet to see any contrary evidence provided other than "we are right because we say we are." If you are suggesting that the burden of proof lies with the believer I'm not sure that I would agree but I might be tempted to jump in. What I usually find is that these arguments always end up with "I have faith because I have faith" and the Atheist equivalent "I don't believe because I don't like what the bible says or that guy who 'hates fags' believe." I think it is far to complicated a subject to have a sincere debate in a public forum (hold that finger! lol). The only 'proof" I have to offer is that I find the biblical text makes sense when considered in its entirety and in the context of history. And believe me, the people who knew me pre-40 are only slightly more surprised at my position today than I am Smiling I regularly tell people that I would not have entered the church that I did if I knew I was going to come out a believer.

In the future, please consider using the quote function when responding.

It makes it easier to sort through your drivel.

You can go to the forums page, click on the general conversation link, and it is the third post down.

 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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well, regarding the OP, i

well, regarding the OP, i haven't watched the videos but i gather from your post that they reference the "3 kings" in some way.  the 3 kings tradition postdates the origins of the jesus movement by a few centuries.  the bible mentions "wise men" bringing gifts (of which it names 3), but it neither says they were kings, nor does it say how many of them there were.

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I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
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ex-minister
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Hey Old & Tired

OldandTired wrote:

The only 'proof" I have to offer is that I find the biblical text makes sense when considered in its entirety and in the context of history. And believe me, the people who knew me pre-40 are only slightly more surprised at my position today than I am Smiling I regularly tell people that I would not have entered the church that I did if I knew I was going to come out a believer

Makes sense. That is your proof. That is hard to test as a theory. It is just a gut feeling. Atheist like evidence, something that can be tested over and over and it comes out the same. This is why science has done so much for humanity. 

 

I would like to hear more about your conversion to theism. There is a forum called "Kill Them With Kindness". If you post there we play nice. I have posted my de-conversion elsewhere and I cannot imagine going back to theism again. I find it fascinating that you appear to have made a dramatic change so that those that know you are in disbelief. You might have mentioned it above. Were you a bona fide atheist before? 

 

Do you belong to a specific church or can is any Christian church acceptable to you? Would you say you are a fundamentalist? What happens to non-believers after death?

What do you make of why Christianity is so splintered? Is that because people go off their gut feelings about what is right?

 

Old & Tired in your 40s? too young to start that now.

 

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


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Thanks

 I will check it out and try to make my 'drivel' more reader friendly...although coming from a guy who seems proud of driving a Harley it will be hard to take serious.

Because you do not believe does not make it untrue.
"The blindness of humanity is so great that people are actually proud of their blindness."
"Our country , now appears, as at no other time in her history, like a lumbering, bellicose, dim-witted giant." Sam Harris


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Questions from Ex-Min

ex-minister wrote:

OldandTired wrote:

The only 'proof" I have to offer is that I find the biblical text makes sense when considered in its entirety and in the context of history. And believe me, the people who knew me pre-40 are only slightly more surprised at my position today than I am Smiling I regularly tell people that I would not have entered the church that I did if I knew I was going to come out a believer

Makes sense. That is your proof. That is hard to test as a theory. It is just a gut feeling. Atheist like evidence, something that can be tested over and over and it comes out the same. This is why science has done so much for humanity. 

 

I would like to hear more about your conversion to theism. There is a forum called "Kill Them With Kindness". If you post there we play nice. I have posted my de-conversion elsewhere and I cannot imagine going back to theism again. I find it fascinating that you appear to have made a dramatic change so that those that know you are in disbelief. You might have mentioned it above. Were you a bona fide atheist before? 

 

Do you belong to a specific church or can is any Christian church acceptable to you? Would you say you are a fundamentalist? What happens to non-believers after death?

What do you make of why Christianity is so splintered? Is that because people go off their gut feelings about what is right?

 

Old & Tired in your 40s? too young to start that now.

 

Thanks Ex

I would have to say it is much more than a 'gut feeling', I had an actual, bona fid conversion experience. Hence it was real, tangible evidence for me but very hard for anyone else to relate to.  I expect similar to many scientific theories that have 'real' proof, the actual proof wouldn't make sense to many of us.  I have 'gut feelings' on a regular basis, my conversion was not one.  I remain mildly uncomfortable discussing my conversion although it is a highlight of my life, I am well aware that it makes me sound like a (as a close friend puts it) 'wing nut fundamentalist' Smiling  I cautiously say that I had a Damascus Road experience.  I entered the doors of a church because of my children, my daughter had become a Christian and went to the church, my boy started to turn bad, so I mentioned that he might want to consider going to church with her. His immediate (and appropriate) response was "why, you don't". So we all started attending the following Sunday. At that point I was still convinced it was the right thing because the kids should be exposed to both sides of the coin to be able to make a 'rational' decision about it. A new pastor had started at the church, he and I have since become close friends, he started preaching a series called "why follow Christ?". I thought o.k., I'll pay attention and refute everything this chump has to say.  Every week he would preach, I would go home and figure out why he was wrong, the next week - rinse and repeat - then one Sunday, the scales fell off my eyes and it was clear I was a fool and was wrong. Just as simple...and complicated as that. 

I'm not terribly concerned about the 'playing nice bit', I think it is not 'rational' to bash someone you are theoretically interested in having debate with but I have been a construction worker a lot longer than a Christian, I'm pretty sure I'll be o.k. Smiling

I'm not sure I would have been considered a 'bona fide' atheist or not, I railed against all things related to Jesus, the church and God in general. I thought it was simply stupid and for weak people to use to hide behind because they could not handle the real world.  A close friend growing up was a professing Christian and I have since apologized for torturing (verbally) him so badly when we were young. I held many of the same opinions I see on this forum, and held them strongly, he was unprepared. Looking back i would suggest that i was as I see most of the world today, blissfully unaware of reality, although I thought I had a firm grasp on it.

As for denominational affiliation, I have some but it is secondary. There are specific items that are not debatable others are, I guess I would be labelled as a fundamentalist but more liberal than most would see fundamentalists as. (If that makes sense)

What happens to non-believers after death? Well theres a leading question!! lol  In all honesty I do not know, I do not believe scripture is clear on the point either but I also do not think it is worth all the yelling and hand wringing.  If I am correct about God, He is perfectly fair and we will understand His judgments at some point. I'm o.k. with finding out what happens to them after I die, I just don't want to be one of them.

Christianity is so splintered because there are people involved.  It is the nature of society, I don't believe there is any organization that has ever existed that is not splintered and fractured in some manner.  There are many reasons for it, but I suspect the main one is the same for the bashing, insults and fractures you see here on this forum - ego.

Nah, the Old&Tired is a poke at Atheists, the arguments I see from them are usually just that, old & tired Smiling  I'm soon to be 50 and ride a Yamaha R1 (poke again at the old fat guy with the HarleySportster avatar - lol), last thing you would want to be on my R1 is old & tired !!

Thks for the 'Rational' chat Smiling

Because you do not believe does not make it untrue.
"The blindness of humanity is so great that people are actually proud of their blindness."
"Our country , now appears, as at no other time in her history, like a lumbering, bellicose, dim-witted giant." Sam Harris


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naked and blanketed

harleysportster wrote:

OldandTired wrote:

 

  You are simply bowing the pressures you are inundated with on a daily basis without actually considering the effect they are having on the development of your thought processes.  

 

 

A blanket statement and a naked assertion.

I did not become an Atheist, after a devoutly religious life because of social pressures. I became an Atheist because of both personal reasons and the fact that I could not accept the absolute ridiculous dogmas of the faith that I was raised in.

Correct on both counts and I stand by them.  My assertion is that people have become so inundated with information that effects their thought process in specific ways that they are entirely unaware of it (myself included).  As a society we have bought into the Hobbsian view of the world and it has become who people are, I do not believe that you, me or any particular individual has much awareness of how much it has influenced our thought processes.  So you saying that you became an atheist because ..., while I respect your ability to choose, I would suggest that there are/were pressures involved that you were entirely, intellectually unaware of. My favourite related book for reference (if you're interested) is "Passage To Modernity" by Louis Dupre', it's an awesome read.

Because you do not believe does not make it untrue.
"The blindness of humanity is so great that people are actually proud of their blindness."
"Our country , now appears, as at no other time in her history, like a lumbering, bellicose, dim-witted giant." Sam Harris


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harleysportster

harleysportster wrote:

 

First the world is becoming more and more secular in one post and now you mention that religion is not even close in another.

Quite alot of religious leaders have spoken about the vanishing numbers in their pews and the decline of church membership.

Of course, quite alot of people in today's world try to dodge the bullet by using that "I am spiritual but not religious" meme that has seem to have caught on so well.

However, the churches are in decline. Now of course, unless something really drastic happens, there will be no way that religion will totally vanish anytime soon or within the next few hundred years. They'll probably do the same thing that the churches have been doing for thousands of years. They will simply tweak a few things around, change their stances a little bit and try to continually tell the same old lie that there faith has always been the right way and never changed.

The early christians, the christians of the dark ages, the 19th century and of today are radically different. Religion also has to conform to evolution and change. Otherwise, it would have long been extinct. Which is too bad that it is not.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(sorry screwed up the quote thingy)

Not sure I understand your first sentence, but on the one hand I think I was referring to the western world and on the other I was comparing the flat earth society to religion...apples and earthworms.

And yes, I will heartily agree with you that the western church is dying. I am one of the odd western theists who don't see it as necessarily bad, my view is that God gave us something to use and we screwed it up.  You may be interested to know that the eastern church is alive and well and growing in huge numbers, there are estimates that 20 000 Chinese come to Christ every day, Korea has one church with a million members.  The church will survive, Western society likely won't.  I agree with all you said, except for the last sentence Smiling

Because you do not believe does not make it untrue.
"The blindness of humanity is so great that people are actually proud of their blindness."
"Our country , now appears, as at no other time in her history, like a lumbering, bellicose, dim-witted giant." Sam Harris


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 I ride a Ducati MS. It can

 I ride a Ducati MS. It can haul ass. 150hp. It holds its own, but no competition for an R1. I have weeded those kind of bikes out because they get me in trouble.  Got a handful of other bikes, but they are slow and easy type.

So it sounds like you may have always believed in god and family pressure got you back into Christianity or rather into Christianity. I was pressured from the start. My grandmother took me to church as a toddler and used me to guilt my mother to start going. Time progressed and I became a minister of a fundamentalist church. I tried very hard to believe but in the end I could not. I had to be honest with myself. It was one of the hardest decisions I ever made leaving the ministry and ultimately the church. No one in my family had ever stopped believing in god at least publicly like I did. I was not hostile about it. In fact I carried lots of shame for years and avoided talking to my family about it. But in time, which was more recently, I let my kids know. My younger daughter burst into tears right in front of me because I said I didn't believe in Jesus. She thought her Dad then was now destined for hell. I really only had pressure to stay, to shut up and not make waves.

It is incomprehensible to me and to my gut that there could possibly be a god like the one described in the bible. The more I read the bible the more it disturbed me. With all the suffering in the world and yet he is a god of love. With him being all-powerful and sits and watches the evil we see, young children abused and raped and he lets it be. Free will is no explanation for me on this. The little child has no free will. And we are told in the bible that we are vile, worthless, no good and the only thing that can save us is god committing suicide on our behalf. And I am supposed to feel guilt ridden because my sins do that, crucify Jesus afresh each time. It really is a horrible story. Jesus being crucified as a man fills me with disgust, that god would do that to his son. And yet I am told Jesus was god, well, then it cheapens the sacrifice. From that point of view, Jesus just had a bad weekend. I just find too many holes in the bible stories. I certainly became exhausted defending my faith and the real key was not to others, but to myself. Life and the Bible just do not ring true to me.

Christianity (and religion) is divergent. It is a faith, a belief, meaning little external evidence. It is not something you can apply the scientific method to. Christianity continues to split because it is so subjective. The history of how the bible developed didn't inspire me and left me very aware of how human it was. Going to college for the ministry opened my eyes to many things. It was a fundamentalist college. They only wanted me to believe. But the deeper I went the more questions I had. I found also that the bible held views of the world that we know are no longer true. It truly reflects the knowledge of primitive people. Their god was certainly no better than they were.

On the other hand science is convergent. It is the best thing we have to understand life. It has discovery many things that didn't make sense to people over time, but in time with the evidence right in front of them, they came to accept its reality. That is a wonderful thing about science. Not only can it find counter-intuitive things it can also demonstrate with hard evidence why and we come to accept it and adjust our intuition. We enjoy technology and better health because of it. We certainly have benefited far more from it than religion, which never adjust itself or fights that kicking and screaming.  And religion for centuries even today stands in its way. This too convinced me that religion is also detrimental to human progress. 

I am a happier man now that I have let religion go. I am true to myself and have better relationships with friends and family. My family wishes it was different, but they love me and accept me based on that. And of course I get the occasional fundamentalist tell me I am going to hell and now I can smile and move on.

 

Cheers

 

 

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


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Mike H wrote: Yes, this is

Mike H wrote:

 Yes, this is yet another example of the lengths atheists will go to "disprove religion", it is not the first video of its kind rife with lies.  Interesting you would point out the obvious fallacy of this video yet turn immediately to Mithras, of which virtually NOTHING factual is known about its origins, although scholarly opinion is slowly turning to it being from the first/second century. If this proves to be right, then it will be from the time of Christ...might want to spend some more time reading before throwing out BS to the masses, if that matters to you.

Dear mods, this guy is a good example of the comments that we don't need to approve.  Mike H posted with the sole purpose of trolling.  He added nothing positive to the conversation, in fact he distracted it... it was going amazing.  How was it going?  An atheist posted something to critically examine the claims of an anti-religion video.  Then another atheist explained why the video was not correct.  Then Mike H came and acted like an asshole.  Way to try to pretend to be smart by illustrating a modicum of historical knowledge Mike H... you're an idiot.

 

 

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OldandTired wrote: Huh,

OldandTired wrote:

 Huh, then you'd think it would be gone by now.  I guess it only disproves itself to 'smart' people.

Proud Canadian

If we can turn the tide of society I think we'd all be surprised how fast it can disappear, or at least whittled down to tarot card reader status.  It's as simple as managing to get an entire generation of people to abstain from forcing religion on their kids.  Easier said than done right?

 

(can't believe I just responded to that dickhead Mike H after I already commented in this thread... see he incited me.)

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OldandTired wrote:  Nah,

OldandTired wrote:

 

 

 

 

Nah, the Old&Tired is a poke at Atheists, the arguments I see from them are usually just that, old & tired Smiling  I'm soon to be 50 and ride a Yamaha R1 (poke again at the old fat guy with the HarleySportster avatar - lol), last thing you would want to be on my R1 is old & tired !!

 

I actually happen to be in my mid-thirties and slim. :lol:  I just feel SOOOOO insulted by that poke.  

Odd, that another theist, Jean Chauvin,  used to have some sort of Harley reference in many responses.  

Oh well.

I am not going to stop riding my 1200 cc Evo. I rode a shovelhead for several years before getting this one. I am content with it.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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OldandTired

OldandTired wrote:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(sorry screwed up the quote thingy)

Quote function. Sorry, could not resist some sarcasm there.

Can you provide links or stats as to the growing number of Christians in China and Korea ? You seemed to draw the correlation that western civilization may not survive, which it very well may not, but are you saying that the growth of religion in the eastern world somehow corresponds to the end of the western world ?

What about the numbers of Buddhists that dominate the eastern world ?

What do you say about the growing powers of Islam ?

Or the large populations of Hinduism throughout countries like India ?

Christianity has always had missionary programs to countries that are largely non-christian. What is the significance of that ?

 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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OldandTired wrote:Quote:Such

OldandTired wrote:

Quote:

Such unusual and in some ways more extreme positions are often observed in later life converts to a belief, so your attitude is not that surprising.

Agreed, but I wonder why that is? What would the "Rational Response" for it be???

To see what the relevant psychological research, if any, suggests.

Quote:

Quote:

When you consciously decided to convert, rather than imbibing your faith with your mother's milk, there often remains unresolved conflict incompletely buried in your memory and subconscious. You seem to be displaying the symptoms.

LOL, not sure what 'symptoms' I am displaying but your psychoanalysis is off the mark I think.

No, it seems pretty spot on, based on your responses.

Quote:

BTW, 'fear of death' is in fact a significant component of the fears that Religion claims to answer.

Quote:

Yep, I understand that, just no concern for me and seems to be the 'popular' atheist response.

Haven't noticed that being the popular atheist response, but many Theists seem to assume that everyone is fundamentally driven by it, including Theist philosophers who I have often heard making the idea quite explicit.

It is not the case with me. I do think about, it being what most people would consider old myself, quite a bit older than you, although I don't think 'tired' would apply to me as a general feeling.

EDIT: I see your 'OldAndTired' is meant to describe our responses, no to refer to yourself... /EDIT

I mostly fear any lingering and painful process of dying, or a serious decline in my mental faculties.

The prospect of 'heaven' as typically described sounds like infinite boredom.

Quote:

Quote:

My points cannot apply to the average atheist, since atheism does not provide any pat answers to the problems of life and death.

Of course it does, "shit happens" is clearly an answer. To say there is no answer is clearly an answer, it simply may not be a cuddly-huggy one like religion offers.

That is a common and entirely reasonable summary of reality, but not an answer "provided by Atheism".

The basic 'pat' answer provided by Atheism is that "there is no God". That's it.

To say there is no answer is NOT an answer to the issue, it is a response.

All other responses are generated by the more specific world-view held by each individual. "Atheism" is not so much a world-view as a typical conclusion of a number of world-views, from a simple lack of concern for issues of 'ultimate truth', all the way to highly developed spiritual doctrines which don't include a God figure, such as Buddhism.

Quote:

Quote:

Is rejection of the illogical, non-answer to 'where did we come from' referred to as 'God' what you mean by 'close-minded'?

Almost, the "close mindedness" I refer to is that lack of ability, or interest in entertaining that there simply may be things you/we do not or cannot understand.

"lack of ability" is not "close-mindedness".

But I agree, ability to engage these ideas varies across the normal human spectrum, as does interest. Lack of interest may reflect 'close-mindedness', or simply the result of having given the issue serious thought and decided it is not a serious proposition worth wasting any more time on.

We frequently point out that there are things we do not understand, and rather than justifying the 'God-of-the-Gaps' argument we so frequently have thrown at us, we point out that "I don't know" is the honest response.

IOW, when we so often get asked, "well if there is no God, where did the Universe/Life/Humans come from?", we point out that if we don't currently understand the origin or cause of soemthing, that does not therefore point to 'God' as the answer. Those oh-so-common theists are the ones that are close-minded in the way you describe.

Quote:

Quote:

Your assessment of me "You are simply bowing the pressures you are inundated with on a daily basis without actually considering the effect they are having on the development of your thought processes. " could not be further from th truth in my case.

If you are, as you seem to be, applying that as appicable to atheists generally, you are utterly and demonstrably wrong. 

You would only need to actually follow a number of atheist podcasts with an open mind to realize that, there is much disagreement about almost everything, apart form the non-existence of God, among atheists.

You may want to consider a little further back on the cultural influence issue, an "atheist podcast" will simply show me more who have been influenced by the factors the rest of us have. Hobbesian philosophy has had a deeper and more far reaching influence than we are ready to accept.

Not if you actually listen to the wide range of attitudes and arguments displayed. I find your comment on Hobbesian Philosphy irrelevant to the issue.

Quote:

Quote:

Part of your gross misunderstanding of, and hostility to, non-religious ideas may come from reading too much of the 'popular atheist' publications, rather than going more deeply into the writings of sceptical and rational thinkers, and related science. Hitchens can be problematic, he is more eloquent than deep, Dawkins can get a little simplistic away from his scientific training in biology, but Harris and especially Dennett are very worth-while to read, especially Dennett on wider issues.

I honestly have no hostility towards any of them (or you for that matter), it just amazes me that people can refer to Sam Harris as "worthwhile reading". I have read all 4 of them and find them all significantly inadequate at the point of their arguments, I agree with your assessments of them outside of the worthwhile part Smiling

Intersesting mis-reading of my point there - I was referring to your hostility to the ideas, not to those putting them foreward.

I find your amazement amazing. 

I don't quite what know what you mean by "outside of the worthwhile part Smiling". That makes no sense to me, particularly in the context of what I said.

Do you mean that they are OK apart from their conclusions? Or their key arguments? So they are ok except where they provide good arguments against your views? CAn you give a specific example of what you mean?

Quote:

Quote:

The Bible is far more deserving of the label 'drivel' here.

Can't agree of course.

So you don't agree that it is inconsistent, frequently to the point of being self-contardictory, full of factual and historical errors, offensive 'moral' edicts, etc, etc, of course.

Quote:

Quote:

To characterise any of the works of the 'Four Horsemen' as "drivel" reveals a pathologically hostile attitude to any questioning of your position, hinting at an underlying insecurity in its foundation. (Bit of pop-psych there )

Lol, nope to use your phrase from above you "couldn't be further from the truth.

I love actual questioning of my position, I think it is important for me to question it diligently and factually. As C.S.Lewis wrote, "it is either the most important thing in the world or it means absolutely nothing." If it means nothing I want to stop wasting my time...haven't been able to yet.

But are you questioning it from a wide enough perspective, after having seriouly studied the counter-evidence? Questioning your views purely from your own perpective is nowhere near sufficient. You should be adressing the arguments of people like the 'Four Horsemen", especially Dennett, and countering, or attempting to counter, them.

Re CS Lewis, that quoete is dumb. The truth status of whether there is a god or not, and what kind of God, if any, will always be important as long as people take it seriously. It will never 'mean absolutely nothing', until it ceases to be taken seriously by any more than a handful of 'nutters'.

What is important is the pursuit of truth about existence, whatever it may be.

Quote:

Quote:

The fact that the term "Four Horseman" came from those reacting against their publications, should have you directing your astonishment at your fellow believers.

Huh, heard Dawkins use it one night when i was listening to him and was sure he used it in a way that made me think they coined it themselves. Oh well, again i will bow to your superior knowledge in that field.

Hmm... did some web-searching, and couldn't find where the "Four Horsemen" phrase was first applied the the famous four. Dawkins has embraced it, certainly. Doesn't ultimately matter that much, hardly justifies seeing the use of the well-known Biblical phrase as a big deal, either way.

Quote:

Quote:

So, do you actually have any defense of your beliefs, apart from childishly throwing our reasons for dismissing religious belief back at us - "and so are you! Nyah, Nya!".

Huh? I thought that was the accepted reasoning on this site? I have yet to see any contrary evidence provided other than "we are right because we say we are." If you are suggesting that the burden of proof lies with the believer I'm not sure that I would agree but I might be tempted to jump in. What I usually find is that these arguments always end up with "I have faith because I have faith" and the Atheist equivalent "I don't believe because I don't like what the bible says or that guy who 'hates fags' believe." I think it is far to complicated a subject to have a sincere debate in a public forum (hold that finger! lol). The only 'proof" I have to offer is that I find the biblical text makes sense when considered in its entirety and in the context of history. And believe me, the people who knew me pre-40 are only slightly more surprised at my position today than I am Smiling I regularly tell people that I would not have entered the church that I did if I knew I was going to come out a believer.

Just shows you haven't read nearly enough on this site, either of its current contents, or over recent years.

We regularly give links or quotes or references to books, videos, articles which further undermine any tiny remaining positive arguments supporting the God fallacy.

The burden of proof certainly lies with claims of God, since it is now has no objective evidence for it, it has no real explanatory power, so is an unnecessary injection into reality.

We point to all the inconsistencies and contradictions and errors of history and of the actual nature of "Life, the Universe, and Everything". And its very flawed morality.

If all we did was respond the way you claim, there site would have died long ago from lack of interest.

So you cannot point to any particularly strong specific argument?

Just that, taken as a whole it all makes sense to you? That is an extremely subjective, fragile 'argument'. Very 'Old and Tired' argument to us here, I can assure you.

For many complex and subtle things, our sense of 'what makes sense' is very unreliable as to truth. Quantum Theory, and Einstein's Relativity Theories, made no sense to many other scientists when originally presented, and QT still 'makes no sense' to our native faculties. But both have been proven to very high degrees of confidence and accuray.

So you have nothing but a feeling - fine for you. Just don't insult our intelligence by expecting us to take you seriously.

Just listened to a discussion of 'Cognitive Dissonance Theory', and its connection with 'Self-Justification'. You would make a good case-study example. Once you decided to rejoin the Church, your account there is entirely consistent with the way our minds tend to work in that situation. You will have a very strong drive to justify your decision to adopt the belief, after the fact, by any 'argument' you can find, to avoid any suspicion that your decision may have been poorly thought out or faulty in any way.

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


OldandTired
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Sapient wrote:

OldandTired wrote:

 Huh, then you'd think it would be gone by now.  I guess it only disproves itself to 'smart' people.

Proud Canadian

If we can turn the tide of society I think we'd all be surprised how fast it can disappear, or at least whittled down to tarot card reader status.  It's as simple as managing to get an entire generation of people to abstain from forcing religion on their kids.  Easier said than done right?

 

(can't believe I just responded to that dickhead Mike H after I already commented in this thread... see he incited me.)

Are you a construction worker also???

Because you do not believe does not make it untrue.
"The blindness of humanity is so great that people are actually proud of their blindness."
"Our country , now appears, as at no other time in her history, like a lumbering, bellicose, dim-witted giant." Sam Harris


OldandTired
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Motorbikes for old men

harleysportster wrote:

OldandTired wrote:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(sorry screwed up the quote thingy)

Quote function. Sorry, could not resist some sarcasm there.

Can you provide links or stats as to the growing number of Christians in China and Korea ? You seemed to draw the correlation that western civilization may not survive, which it very well may not, but are you saying that the growth of religion in the eastern world somehow corresponds to the end of the western world ?

What about the numbers of Buddhists that dominate the eastern world ?

What do you say about the growing powers of Islam ?

Or the large populations of Hinduism throughout countries like India ?

Christianity has always had missionary programs to countries that are largely non-christian. What is the significance of that ?

 

 

Sorry I don't have the stats, was from a couple courses I took last year and a speaker I listened too. The subjects are easy to google though, the growth of Christianity in the east is a relatively popular topic.

Sorry again, I did not mean to make the link between religion and the western world.  My point was intended to be, societies come and go, the church stays.

I see Buddism as a different thing, they (generally) do not believe in God.

I don't see Islam as a growing power, we make more of it in the news but I am unaware of it actually growing.  I have heard of issues in Europe, perhaps it and Christianity are simply swapping sides Smiling

I do not know of any Christian missionary programs that are 'largely non-christian', what/where are they?  If so I suspect they are related to another common theme I see in the world, that , if there is a God He must be cruel because He doesn't Harry Potter us out of our misery.  (again, I'm leaping here just for fun)  I suspect these people realize it is us that God sent to help those less fortunate.

Because you do not believe does not make it untrue.
"The blindness of humanity is so great that people are actually proud of their blindness."
"Our country , now appears, as at no other time in her history, like a lumbering, bellicose, dim-witted giant." Sam Harris


OldandTired
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Bob's chat

 Is there a character limit and did you use most of them Bob? Smiling

I was halfway through a response and it would not accept any more characters (maybe God is telling me something! lol)  I even learned how to use the quote function (I think)!

Also...is there any chance you and I may have had an email discussion years ago?  This is beginning to sound vaguely familiar.

Because you do not believe does not make it untrue.
"The blindness of humanity is so great that people are actually proud of their blindness."
"Our country , now appears, as at no other time in her history, like a lumbering, bellicose, dim-witted giant." Sam Harris


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Ex-Min chat

ex-minister wrote:

 I ride a Ducati MS. It can haul ass. 150hp. It holds its own, but no competition for an R1. I have weeded those kind of bikes out because they get me in trouble.  Got a handful of other bikes, but they are slow and easy type.

Yea, the R1 is a beast.  I stopped riding for a few years then came back and bought it, was amazed at the engineering involved.  Had some work done on it also, dyno'd at just over 200hp, seeing as I try to be a serious bible thumper I had to have something with potential trouble Smiling

ex-minister wrote:

So it sounds like you may have always believed in god and family pressure got you back into Christianity or rather into Christianity. I was pressured from the start. My grandmother took me to church as a toddler and used me to guilt my mother to start going. Time progressed and I became a minister of a fundamentalist church. I tried very hard to believe but in the end I could not. I had to be honest with myself. It was one of the hardest decisions I ever made leaving the ministry and ultimately the church. No one in my family had ever stopped believing in god at least publicly like I did. I was not hostile about it. In fact I carried lots of shame for years and avoided talking to my family about it. But in time, which was more recently, I let my kids know. My younger daughter burst into tears right in front of me because I said I didn't believe in Jesus. She thought her Dad then was now destined for hell. I really only had pressure to stay, to shut up and not make waves.

Luckily I did not grow up in the church. I believe it does as much damage as good at the moment.

ex-minister wrote:

It is incomprehensible to me and to my gut that there could possibly be a god like the one described in the bible. The more I read the bible the more it disturbed me. With all the suffering in the world and yet he is a god of love. With him being all-powerful and sits and watches the evil we see, young children abused and raped and he lets it be. Free will is no explanation for me on this. The little child has no free will. And we are told in the bible that we are vile, worthless, no good and the only thing that can save us is god committing suicide on our behalf. And I am supposed to feel guilt ridden because my sins do that, crucify Jesus afresh each time. It really is a horrible story. Jesus being crucified as a man fills me with disgust, that god would do that to his son. And yet I am told Jesus was god, well, then it cheapens the sacrifice. From that point of view, Jesus just had a bad weekend. I just find too many holes in the bible stories. I certainly became exhausted defending my faith and the real key was not to others, but to myself. Life and the Bible just do not ring true to me.

I did not find it so. Scripture is rough and harsh at times but that is the world also, I do not believe God 'lets it happen', I believe he put us here to address it and instead we ride around on our R1s (guilty as charged.)  It is easy for us to say "god is evil because he lets these things happen', but I say we are the issue, very few of us actively do anything to stop the evil we see in the world on a daily basis - except piss and moan about it.

ex-minister wrote:
 

Christianity (and religion) is divergent. It is a faith, a belief, meaning little external evidence. It is not something you can apply the scientific method to. Christianity continues to split because it is so subjective. The history of how the bible developed didn't inspire me and left me very aware of how human it was. Going to college for the ministry opened my eyes to many things. It was a fundamentalist college. They only wanted me to believe. But the deeper I went the more questions I had. I found also that the bible held views of the world that we know are no longer true. It truly reflects the knowledge of primitive people. Their god was certainly no better than they were.

I attended a different seminary Smiling

ex-minister wrote:

On the other hand science is convergent. It is the best thing we have to understand life. It has discovery many things that didn't make sense to people over time, but in time with the evidence right in front of them, they came to accept its reality. That is a wonderful thing about science. Not only can it find counter-intuitive things it can also demonstrate with hard evidence why and we come to accept it and adjust our intuition. We enjoy technology and better health because of it. We certainly have benefited far more from it than religion, which never adjust itself or fights that kicking and screaming.  And religion for centuries even today stands in its way. This too convinced me that religion is also detrimental to human progress. 

I do not see them as mutually exclusive.  There have been instances of abuse but on the whole religion has been good for humanity, re; most of the knowledge saved through the dark ages was through the monastic movement.

ex-minister wrote:

I am a happier man now that I have let religion go. I am true to myself and have better relationships with friends and family. My family wishes it was different, but they love me and accept me based on that. And of course I get the occasional fundamentalist tell me I am going to hell and now I can smile and move on.

I'm glad you are happier, I am also.  When I have the occasional Atheist tell me I'm an "asshole/dickhead', I can shake my head and move on Smiling

 

Because you do not believe does not make it untrue.
"The blindness of humanity is so great that people are actually proud of their blindness."
"Our country , now appears, as at no other time in her history, like a lumbering, bellicose, dim-witted giant." Sam Harris


ex-minister
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OldandTired,  What

OldandTired, 

 

What knowledge did the monastics save that was so helpful? The dark ages - yes when Christianity was in full power and control, when you could truly judge them by their fruits - Jesus told us to do that.

The Bible shows God as very active in human affairs. Yet since the invention of the video camera it is no more. That was another factor that led me to conclude the bible was written by humans, it was a fanciful tale, but nothing like you could see today. Only the odd or rare person sees visions or UFOs or miracles and they cannot be verified. Keys stories have no archeological validation. Outside the bible there is no evidence for the Exodus.

Are you saying if you saw your daughter getting raped you could stand by waiting for someone else to save her and then seeing no one else would do it, you would continue to watch because you had some axe to grind? That is what you are saying god does. Doesn't the bible say god loves us more than we love ourselves? Do you believe he is incapable of helping or lacks compassion? This behavior is very brutish.

 

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


harleysportster
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OldandTired wrote: I do not

OldandTired wrote:

 

I do not know of any Christian missionary programs that are 'largely non-christian', what/where are they?  If so I suspect they are related to another common theme I see in the world, that , if there is a God He must be cruel because He doesn't Harry Potter us out of our misery.  (again, I'm leaping here just for fun)  I suspect these people realize it is us that God sent to help those less fortunate.

There are many atheists charities out there. But, they could not be classified as a missionary. After all, atheism doesn't have a dogma other than non-belief in god. So they can not mission to anyone.

Anyway, since you have clarified the point that you do not see a correlation between the eastern christianity growing and the possible end of western civilization, the whole missionary question that I brought up is moot.

I was merely going to point out that christianity has always had missionaries in the non-christian countries, so the growth of christianity was not surprising.

But is the goal of those missionaries to really help out the less fortunate ? Or is it to get as many people "safely into the fold" as quickly as possible?

 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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harleysportster

harleysportster wrote:

OldandTired wrote:

 

I do not know of any Christian missionary programs that are 'largely non-christian', what/where are they?  If so I suspect they are related to another common theme I see in the world, that , if there is a God He must be cruel because He doesn't Harry Potter us out of our misery.  (again, I'm leaping here just for fun)  I suspect these people realize it is us that God sent to help those less fortunate.

There are many atheists charities out there. But, they could not be classified as a missionary. After all, atheism doesn't have a dogma other than non-belief in god. So they can not mission to anyone.

Anyway, since you have clarified the point that you do not see a correlation between the eastern christianity growing and the possible end of western civilization, the whole missionary question that I brought up is moot.

I was merely going to point out that christianity has always had missionaries in the non-christian countries, so the growth of christianity was not surprising.

But is the goal of those missionaries to really help out the less fortunate ? Or is it to get as many people "safely into the fold" as quickly as possible?

 

 

Ah, you were trying to bait the poor dump Theist..whew, glad I dodged that bullet! lol 

As for your Missionary question, I believe there is both but should be helping the less fortunate as God will take care of the other as He sees fit.

Because you do not believe does not make it untrue.
"The blindness of humanity is so great that people are actually proud of their blindness."
"Our country , now appears, as at no other time in her history, like a lumbering, bellicose, dim-witted giant." Sam Harris


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OldandTired wrote: Is there

OldandTired wrote:

 Is there a character limit and did you use most of them Bob? Smiling

I was halfway through a response and it would not accept any more characters (maybe God is telling me something! lol)  I even learned how to use the quote function (I think)!

Also...is there any chance you and I may have had an email discussion years ago?  This is beginning to sound vaguely familiar.

What Browser are you using?

We have been doing some site updating, I have noticed some things not working the same in some browsers.

It might be best to split your response.

When you open for quoting the first time, delete that last half of the post before adding your response, but leave the final [ / quote ].

Then open the original post again, and, delete the part you responded to in the first part, bit leaving the first [ quote ].

=====

What handle did you use? Your style is fairly old and tired to me, having encountered the same old stuff many times, in its basics.

Of course our responses to Theists are often 'old and tired', since they keep offering us even older and tireder 'arguments'.

=====

Oh and your response about God wanting us to address the problems, how does he propose we stop earthquakes and tidal waves, and why did he bequeath us all the diseases and parasites, especially the ones that have their main impact on the very young?

And what were we supposed to do to cure cancer before science? Much of which was explicitly resisted by the Church?

There is zero case for claiming that if there is a God, he is in any way 'loving' or "good", and Scripture is equally, if not more, consistent with a hateful, deceiving God.

Since you have offered no evidence for a God, and are prepared to gloss over all the errors and inconsistencies in the Bible, you cannot have an argument for a 'good' God, which flies in the face of massive evidence to he contrary.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


OldandTired
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ex-minister

ex-minister wrote:

OldandTired, 

 

What knowledge did the monastics save that was so helpful? The dark ages - yes when Christianity was in full power and control, when you could truly judge them by their fruits - Jesus told us to do that.

The Bible shows God as very active in human affairs. Yet since the invention of the video camera it is no more. That was another factor that led me to conclude the bible was written by humans, it was a fanciful tale, but nothing like you could see today. Only the odd or rare person sees visions or UFOs or miracles and they cannot be verified. Keys stories have no archeological validation. Outside the bible there is no evidence for the Exodus.

Are you saying if you saw your daughter getting raped you could stand by waiting for someone else to save her and then seeing no one else would do it, you would continue to watch because you had some axe to grind? That is what you are saying god does. Doesn't the bible say god loves us more than we love ourselves? Do you believe he is incapable of helping or lacks compassion? This behavior is very brutish.

 

The monastic movement was largely responsible for copying and maintaining the only libraries of knowledge that remained through the dark ages.  Any ancient knowledge that we have presently from the Greeks, Romans etc. was generally brought through the monastic movement.

I disagree that God is not active in human affairs today, my conversion is proof he is even though you couldn't video it.  I would hardly call videos 'verification', although I saw this cool one of a Jackalope. It was on video, honest!

I did not say any such thing about rape or anything like it.  I said God put us here to handle things and as you seem to agree, we are screwing it up.  (I'm leaping here a bit) It seems to me that He gave us all we need to do what is right and we simply choose not to.  I think He is capable of helping, and has, we are simply refusing it, I say our actions are brutish not His.  I see it as He has given us food to eat and we throw it in the garbage and starve ourselves from spite, I suspect he could force feed us but I also suspect it would have more detrimental effects than good for us long term. (similar to a welfare state)  But yes, some of it I am grasping at and going with the 'overall story line', as I said previously I find this medium difficult to carry on meaningful discussion in. 

Because you do not believe does not make it untrue.
"The blindness of humanity is so great that people are actually proud of their blindness."
"Our country , now appears, as at no other time in her history, like a lumbering, bellicose, dim-witted giant." Sam Harris


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BobSpence wrote:

Since you have offered no evidence for a God, and are prepared to gloss over all the errors and inconsistencies in the Bible, you cannot have an argument for a 'good' God, which flies in the face of massive evidence to he contrary.

 

wait, wait, wait...I will discuss them as I find them. I'm still new here and have no interest in glossing over anything. 

I'm using Safari (also new Mac convert Smiling)

off to Church, will carry on later though

Because you do not believe does not make it untrue.
"The blindness of humanity is so great that people are actually proud of their blindness."
"Our country , now appears, as at no other time in her history, like a lumbering, bellicose, dim-witted giant." Sam Harris


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OK, 'OldAndTired', Safari on

OK, 'OldAndTired', Safari on Mac is what I'm using, so you should be ok. 

There may be a character limit - I seem to recall. I usually start splitting my responses to long posts way before I hit it, for other reasons.

I was accessing RRS via FireFox until it starting having problems with the site, then went to Chrome, which was ok  till recently. Safari still handles it ok, so far.

I avoided using Safari because I use it to debug web code, and if I have it stepping thru the script, I can't do any browsing with it while in that state. Which I like to do as a break from puzzling out a tricky code problem, and I don't want to let it start running again and lose the point I have stopped it at.

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


harleysportster
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OldandTired

OldandTired wrote:


 

As for your Missionary question, I believe there is both but should be helping the less fortunate as God will take care of the other as He sees fit.

The primary purpose of providing relief and aid to the less fortunate, IMO, should be just that,  aid and relief. Not that I am leaping to the assertion that some christian organizations do not do that. I can think of one in particular that seems to have a prime directive of aid before religion.

However, think of some of the things that have been interjected into missionary work.

Mother Teresa was obsessed with ending contraceptives and abortion in India. With a country that suffers from the population explosion of India as well as the living conditions of that time. I would think the logical thing to do would be to encourage contraceptives.

As a matter of fact, with a world population of over 7 billion people, the idea of contraceptives should be widely in use, both in the developed world and IN THE underdeveloped nations.

I am only using one example of many to demonstrate my concern that theistic dogma and agendas can often be at the core of religious aid. To me, it seems to be the churches way of saying "We'll provide you food and medicine, but you have to accept our way of life first,".

 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Jeffrick

Jeffrick wrote:

 

 

 

                         The aspects of the jesus charactor come from the god Mithra of the Persian Zoastrian religion for the most part and several other gods but not from Horus.

 

     

The documentary the god who wasn't there demonstrates the similiarity of ancient gods and jesus.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno