Can someone teach me how not to be a coward when it comes to telling people I don't believe in God?

Zeeboe
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Can someone teach me how not to be a coward when it comes to telling people I don't believe in God?

I need to ramble some, but I have put in bold the parts that I hope others will read, and offer advice:

I'm a 28-year old man, and four years ago I went from being a Christian to an Atheist, now an Agnostic. I live in a pretty Christian area where I'm from, and sometimes I've had to tell people I am not a believer. Over the years, it's been easier to tell people I am Agnostic, but I always feel a little nervous beforehand, and have to quickly build up the nerve, and I still question the best way in going about in telling people, and I would prefer to do it in a way that is not so passive.

Sometimes I just ignore someone when they talk about God, or at the most, I tell them I'm not really a religious guy, but maybe I'll get back into it one day. To be honest - I would prefer just to say I'm Agnostic, and that's it, and avoid the desire to ramble anymore about it. And if I just have to say something to ease the tension, I'd like to say "But I keep an open-mind".

 

I use to hate confrontation, and I still do, but I will face confrontation if I need to. My motivation for being brave is the fact that I know if I am not brave, me being a coward will knaw on my mind later, and I'll forever replay it in my head, and never ever forgive myself, so in order to get peace, I know I sometimes have to be brave. I also know that I can win many battles with my mind and words alone, so those are my weapons.

(As much as I love my Mother, she is the reason why I was a coward for so long and even to this day, still am forever fighting with myself to be a man. But that's another issue, and I could really rant about that, so I'll stop. Really, I feel ashamed for this thread alone. It's not always easy asking for help, but this forum has for the most part been helpful and understanding, especially in regards of topics like these.)

One of the hardest things about being me is that I'm a nice guy. I admit, I use too be VERY passive, but since being in my mid-twenties to now, I am now passive-aggressive so I like to think I am moving up some.

It's not just a case of me being a sissy by the way, but also the fact that I honestly do like being a nice guy, and don't enjoy offending others and prefer to live in peace. But I still would prefer to be a nice guy and just ignore rude people if able, but I know sadly that unless you play by the rules of others, that can't happen, and their rules may not be for you. One of the secrets I've learned is NEVER let others know you are scared/nervous, or you could be in trouble. I think people thinking I have mental issues is better then letting them know I'm acting like a chicken.

 

I know this much - I know am not a coward. I think everyone has their fears, and I've faced my different fears MANY times, and I think by admitting to this one and asking for help proves I have guts.

 

Alright, having said all that - What is the nicest way to tell someone I am Agnostic, but not coming across as poor soul who needs God? And do you think saying "I'm Agnostic" outloud to myself a few times would come in handy?


Brian37
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First off there is no such

First off there is no such thing as "agnostic". If you understood the roots of the prefix of the word and the suffix of the word, you would know that it was horribly cobbled together by Thomas Huxley to mean "fence sitter:. But the reality to the core of what the word means it can only be and should only be used as a qualifying word, not a stand alone word.

Now, it IS ok to be unsure. But there is also a direction one leans while being unsure which is common lexicon people wrongfully use in the word "agnostic".

IF IF IF IF, one is unsure but leans to a god existing or "something" existing they are an "agnostic theist".

But you can also be unsure and at the same time say, "what I have seen so far is all bullshit". That would be an agnostic atheist.

I lean toward's a god not existing and that is my current position, although semantically speaking only, I have not lived the future so only in that semantic sense "I don't know".

I hold no god belief currently and reject all current and past claims due to lack of evidence. I am only agnostic in the sense that I have not lived the future.

NOW, as far as being a "coward" don't put yourself down for not always sticking up for yourself. Battles are never absolute and since we don't know your personal life or your personal psychology, while we can give you advise only you know what is going on around you.

I never fault someone for being blunt or blasphemous and open OR quiet and reserved, it is always situational and case by case. Life is never either or.

But in any case, the fact that you are here says that at a minimum when you need a place to be yourself, you have found one. Only you can decide, even with any advice we may give you, what you should or should not do.

Let me give you an example. At a bar one night a jackass jock who hated my team wanted to pick a fight with me. The truth was he could have easily kicked my ass. Did that make me a "coward" because I didn't want to fight him, or because I was physically weaker than him?

NO. here is how I handled the situation. I simply said, "You can call me a wimp all you want for not fighting you, but if you lay one hand on me, I will call the police". That ended the fight.

Now, who was smarter? The asshole hung up on pride who would have ended up in jail, or me, who thought his way through the conflict?

THE POINT IS, there is no shame in picking your battles. There is no shame in sticking up for yourself but at the same time there is also no shame in knowing when to back off. Life is never either or and there is plenty of shades of gray.

We cant ultimately give you a script to solve your problems. Just be yourself. You don't have to make everything a battle, but you also don't have to think you are a coward because you have real fear of how someone might react.

 

 

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Atheistextremist
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G'day Zeeb

 

Zeeboe wrote:

Alright, having said all that - What is the nicest way to tell someone I am Agnostic, but not coming across as poor soul who needs God? And do you think saying "I'm Agnostic" outloud to myself a few times would come in handy?

 

How's it going? Just say your metaphysical stance is that you only accept as arguable facts those assertions supported by testable explanations (BobSpence has a better form of words for this). There's nothing too confrontational in this. 

As for how you define your disbelief, you are probably an agnostic atheist, same as many of us. We can't say there's no personal external agency but we have seen no evidence for its existence. 

There aren't many who claim to be absolutely certain there is no god - most concede a vanishingly small probability in the continued absence of any proof. 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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I don't like being

I don't like being confrontational, either.  And sometimes, I have to be polite if I am on the job.  So, here are some various things I say:

In response to "would you like to come to my church?" - "Thank you, I have plans for Sunday mornings."  I don't have to tell them my plans include sleeping in and perhaps ...

In response to "I'm praying for you." - "Thanks."

In response to "Praise the Lord" or "Hallelujah" or similar - "And the paramedics, firemen, doctors, policemen, linebackers, medical researchers, quarterback, center, goalie, etc"  What ever is appropriate.

In response to anything else I am not sure what the heck they are going on about - "thank you for sharing that."

Occasionally, I will say, "I'm really not into that."  Especially if I want someone to back off.

Very seldom will I say, "I'm an atheist" unless confronted.  And then I will.  I used to say it frequently - but too many people, it seems to me, take that as a challenge to waste an hour or two of my day arguing about religion.  And I really do have better things to do most days.

Now your mom may say she has the right to know just what your other plans for Sunday are.  My mom had a heck of a time remembering I was an adult.  At age 28, you have the right to say, "I'm going to have a lovely day, thank you.  May yours be as pleasant."  You do not need to share every detail of your life with your parents once you are an adult if you don't wish to. 

You just have to find your own comfort zone.  Recognize that your zone will change with time.  That's okay.  Some people around here are more comfortable being more forthright.  That is fine for them.   Some people have been more confrontational with their own families.  If that works for them, good.  If it doesn't work for you, that is also good.


 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

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Be very, very casual about

Be very, very casual about it. It ain't no thang, dawg. That's how you have to play it.


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It depends

It depends on the situation for me.

Much like CJ said, if someone is offering me a church invitation on the job, generally I just have an  excuse.

Now when fundies try to "witness" to me, it becomes a whole different ballgame. It just took me lots and lots of practice at telling people that I was an Atheist, to get over my fears of persecution. That and I made sure that I read alot of books,so that I would have all of the facts on my side in order to make sure that a fundie never stumps me or finds me without an answer to their rhetoric. I have found, that the more information I have on my side, the more confident I have become. I would suggest reading alot of Hitchens,, Dawkins, Dennett and as many books on the history of religion that you can find. I also suggest even reading some of the Bible, so that you can throw some of their scripture back at them. Knowledge is truly power.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
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What is there to be afraid

What is there to be afraid of really? If someone doesn't want to be friends with you or your family disowns you, maybe you don't want to waist your time with them anyways. I mean life is short so you'd be better off spending your time doing something than hanging out with these kinds of bigots.

And at least your not coming out as atheist in Saudi Arabia, where they can kill you for this.

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


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Assumptions you have are religion and myths are one in the same

  This may seem a  gross  over-simplification, where it's off the bottom of a soup can or a bazooka-joe comic-strip wrapper. However, According to what I am reading  your  'assumptions  are  religion and myths  are one in the same'.  Am I correct in assuming that about  what you are saying to the board?  If you decontextualize the purely cultural aspects, maybe fears are rather silly.  But if it is too tough on you.  Any chance of making for yourself different arrangements?

 

Quote:
Exc said: What is there to be afraid of really?

 A-m-e-n. 

 

 

 

 

 


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EXC wrote:What is there to

EXC wrote:

What is there to be afraid of really? If someone doesn't want to be friends with you or your family disowns you, maybe you don't want to waist your time with them anyways. I mean life is short so you'd be better off spending your time doing something than hanging out with these kinds of bigots.

And at least yor not coming out as atheist in Saudi Arabia, where they can kill you for this.

For a long time, I was afraid of fundies making me look foolish or hitting me with an argument that I would not be able to answer, even though I knew I was right. This site and lots of reading saved me from that fear. I am pretty much an open Atheist, everywhere I go. I am no longer afraid of debating anyone about my lack of beleif.  

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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What is going on with your situation ? Causing confusion . .

    What is going on w/ your situation ???  This is surprising , please bare with me, I dont understand your initial feelings you are feeling.  You require some 'distance'?  Before I'm the somebody who has others  'upset' by "my" comments.  Explain what you are being forced to do.

 

 

 


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Zeeboe wrote: I use to hate

Zeeboe wrote:
I use to hate confrontation, and I still do, but I will face confrontation if I need to. My motivation for being brave is the fact that I know if I am not brave, me being a coward will knaw on my mind later, and I'll forever replay it in my head, and never ever forgive myself, so in order to get peace, I know I sometimes have to be brave. I also know that I can win many battles with my mind and words alone, so those are my weapons.

Having those tools doesn't mean you have to be the aggressor.

Zeeboe wrote:
(As much as I love my Mother, she is the reason why I was a coward for so long and even to this day, still am forever fighting with myself to be a man. But that's another issue, and I could really rant about that, so I'll stop. Really, I feel ashamed for this thread alone. It's not always easy asking for help, but this forum has for the most part been helpful and understanding, especially in regards of topics like these.)

One of the hardest things about being me is that I'm a nice guy. I admit, I use too be VERY passive, but since being in my mid-twenties to now, I am now passive-aggressive so I like to think I am moving up some.

My family was always secular, so, I never had to argue religion with them, but I have argued much with them about other issues. It's taught me to pick and choose my battles with them, because sometimes when you win, you still lose.

Zeeboe wrote:
Alright, having said all that - What is the nicest way to tell someone I am Agnostic, but not coming across as poor soul who needs God? And do you think saying "I'm Agnostic" outloud to myself a few times would come in handy?

I think you're leaving out the specific circumstances where your 'spiritualism' is the issue. And context is everything.

I've rarely had to make the strong point that I'm an atheist. I'm fortunate that I've never had to live in any bible thumping areas where I'd be committing social suicide. Under different circumstances, it might be more productive for you to simply avoid getting into a confrontation.

I'd never live anywhere where the average person is on the 'witch hunt' for atheists. I'd simply move. The world is an awful big place, and life is too short to share space with delusion militant freaks.

 

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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You're not being a 'coward"

You're not being a 'coward" dude.... don't be so hard on yourself.... There is a big difference between keeping things to yourself, and denying who you are to strangers...


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Zeeboe wrote: I need to

Zeeboe wrote:

I need to ramble some, but I have put in bold the parts that I hope others will read, and offer advice:

I'm a 28-year old man, and four years ago I went from being a Christian to an Atheist, now an Agnostic. I live in a pretty Christian area where I'm from, and sometimes I've had to tell people I am not a believer. Over the years, it's been easier to tell people I am Agnostic, but I always feel a little nervous beforehand, and have to quickly build up the nerve, and I still question the best way in going about in telling people, and I would prefer to do it in a way that is not so passive.

Sometimes I just ignore someone when they talk about God, or at the most, I tell them I'm not really a religious guy, but maybe I'll get back into it one day. To be honest - I would prefer just to say I'm Agnostic, and that's it, and avoid the desire to ramble anymore about it. And if I just have to say something to ease the tension, I'd like to say "But I keep an open-mind".

 

I use to hate confrontation, and I still do, but I will face confrontation if I need to. My motivation for being brave is the fact that I know if I am not brave, me being a coward will knaw on my mind later, and I'll forever replay it in my head, and never ever forgive myself, so in order to get peace, I know I sometimes have to be brave. I also know that I can win many battles with my mind and words alone, so those are my weapons.

(As much as I love my Mother, she is the reason why I was a coward for so long and even to this day, still am forever fighting with myself to be a man. But that's another issue, and I could really rant about that, so I'll stop. Really, I feel ashamed for this thread alone. It's not always easy asking for help, but this forum has for the most part been helpful and understanding, especially in regards of topics like these.)

One of the hardest things about being me is that I'm a nice guy. I admit, I use too be VERY passive, but since being in my mid-twenties to now, I am now passive-aggressive so I like to think I am moving up some.

It's not just a case of me being a sissy by the way, but also the fact that I honestly do like being a nice guy, and don't enjoy offending others and prefer to live in peace. But I still would prefer to be a nice guy and just ignore rude people if able, but I know sadly that unless you play by the rules of others, that can't happen, and their rules may not be for you. One of the secrets I've learned is NEVER let others know you are scared/nervous, or you could be in trouble. I think people thinking I have mental issues is better then letting them know I'm acting like a chicken.

 

I know this much - I know am not a coward. I think everyone has their fears, and I've faced my different fears MANY times, and I think by admitting to this one and asking for help proves I have guts.

Yeah, some moms really castrate their kids without even trying. BTDT I eventually grew out of it, and I'm now apt to stomp my foot down when I believe mom has finally crossed a line. I think there's hope for you as well provided you're willing to work towards overcoming it.

Are you saying you feel like you need to advertise your lack of belief, but have difficulty doing so, or is it an issue of having difficulty answering questions about your (lack of) faith? Because I've never seen much benefit in proudly advertising one's positions regarding theism, like I need someone else to challenge or recognize my opinions as if it validates said opinions. I'm not quite that vain.

If it's making a response to a question or when religion or theism comes up in discussion, just say "I don't believe any of that" and if someone reacts combatively to that, respond that you're "not looking for fight". If this person isn't a creep, they should get the general gist and ease up. This fits your current MO anyways, right?

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Hi OPIE

Hi OPIE,

ha ha ha. Hilarous OP. Truly funny. The thing is, God mocks you from the heavens (Psalms 2:4). Him and His angels are laughing at your stupidity. You're always be a coward since you are afraid to embrace the truth.

Thus your trouble of conviction. Get some backbone my friend. Atheism does not have this. They must borrow from Christianity. Or Except Christ and be a man of courage. Thanks for the laughs.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).


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Jean Chauvin wrote:Hi

Jean Chauvin wrote:

Hi OPIE,

ha ha ha. Hilarous OP. Truly funny. The thing is, God mocks you from the heavens (Psalms 2:4). Him and His angels are laughing at your stupidity. You're always be a coward since you are afraid to embrace the truth.

Thus your trouble of conviction. Get some backbone my friend. Atheism does not have this. They must borrow from Christianity. Or Except Christ and be a man of courage. Thanks for the laughs.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

You want backbone?

FUCK YOU ASSHOLE, how's that for backbone?

Why don't you spend some time unsticking the pages of your bible that you jizz on?

Oh, and your zombie super hero hardly had "courage'. He didn't die nameless like the soldiers of Normandy whose name you and I will never know. And he didn't die in obscurity or stay dead.

God/Jesus, did it for self promotion. The end goal is to get attention and club members.

Jesus does not have any fucking morality.

Doing the right thing is doing it, even if you don't get any reward or attention for doing such.

"Look at me look at me look at me" Is the entire motif of the bible and the God/Jesus characters.

Fuck you and fuck your god. How's that for "backbone".

 

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Oh and to any Christian

Oh and to any Christian reading this, you may not be privy to the history of Jean's posts. He is attempting to put us on display like zoo animals.

When I say "fuck you" or "fuck your god" I am strictly talking about HIM and what he has presented as what he believes his god is and or will do.

He started a thread about Japan and claimed that they were served up the tsunami and deserved it and it was a warning to us. Now, having been married to a Japanese woman, and known her friends and family and having visited Japan and knowing about their high education rate and low crime rate. I found his absurd view of his god sick and offensive.

He is nothing more than a troll and most certainly one with the same tyrannical view of his god as many Muslims in the east view Allah as being.

Not all Christians view their god like Jean here does. There are lots of believers I can get along with, Jean is not one of them.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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Brian37 wrote: He is

Brian37 wrote:

 

He is nothing more than a troll and most certainly one with the same tyrannical view of his god as many Muslims in the east view Allah as being.

Not all Christians view their god like Jean here does. There are lots of believers I can get along with, Jean is not one of them.

 

 

What gets me is how he likes to end every post with "Respectfully, ...".  Jean Chauvin, there is nothing respectful about anything you have said here.  I wonder if you even know the meaning of the word respect, or how to show it sincerely.  If you want to be taken seriously here you are going to have to learn to behave at least slightly better than a two year old.


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Zeeboe: To me it doesn't

Zeeboe: To me it doesn't look like cowardice, more like too much concern for people's good. The others should be able to handle something too. Not everyone is going to be as nice to them. 

What's wrong about saying... "God? That idea never made sense to me. Looks like people just believe what they were taught as children."

Usually they just respond with one big "Ooooo-Kkkk..." 


Usually, I'm a coward when it comes to physical confrontation, authority and confidence and dogs consider me an easy prey. (always been the weakest and slowest kid in the class) But I love the competition on intellectual level. And arguing religion is one of the most available opportunities. Christians are rather tame around here. It is more a challenge to keep it simple stupid for them and stick to basic points. Usually I take every available opportunity. By the rumors of how senior neighbours at church were looking daggers at my grandma, the latest episode of public discussion on local Xcamp did not go unnoticed. But hey, Mr Stefan himself said, please be VERY CRITICAL, so I was Smiling

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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Thanks Brian for .. ..

Quote:
Oh and to any Christian reading this, you may not be privy to the history of Jean's posts. He is attempting to put us on display like zoo animals. When I say "fuck you" or "fuck your god" I am strictly talking about HIM and what he has presented as what he believes his god is and or will do ..He started a thread about Japan and claimed that they were served up the tsunami and deserved it and it was a warning to us. Now, having been married to a Japanese woman, and known her friends and family and having visited Japan and knowing about their high education rate and low crime rate. I found his absurd view of his god sick and offensive. He is nothing more than a troll and most certainly one with the same tyrannical view of his god as many Muslims in the east view Allah as being. Not all Christians view their god like Jean here does. There are lots of believers I can get along with, Jean is not one of them.

 

   Thanks to you Brian for having the presence of mind to mention that.   I dont know of ANY Xians that behave in any-way like Jean does.

See:: Image

 


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Hello

Hello,

Brian, come on, you like me a little. Let's be honest, i represent Christianity 100% consistent. The Christians today have been bitten in the ass by the poison of atheistic liberalism. So of course you get a long with most Christians today duh. They're programmed in atheist language. lol.

But i"m hardcore. I have not been bitten by your poision. I have been guarded by the Holy Spirit. With my weapons of intellect you to kingdom come and you know it. That's why i piss you off. I pissed you off way before the Japen thing. Give me a break.

Gallow. I do speak respectfully. Even though you are a pagan going to hell to have your feet slowly pulled from your body while intense pain occurs due to your stupid evil, you are still my sister. You are my sister in ADAM. And i do respect you, but I'm hard on you. I'm not just blowing trumpets, as a logician, i am bringing atheism to it's consistent conclusions. If murderering your family as atheiism would have no problem with is offensive or not respectful, then you are in a system that you find offensive. This is so odd. This is why God calls you people foolish.  I DO NOT respect th evil you and your system is doing to this country and our children. My kid is attacked daily by your crap. When she grows, she''ll be kicking your kids butt, and when they have kids, your kids butt.

But i'm a nice guy. I would treat you like a lady. I would refer to you gently. HOWEVER, if you wanna play with the big boys, either grow some balls or become a feminist lol.

Forks in the head lady, um, hi? I do view your position. I just perported it in my post. Quit goofing around you guys and either murder people as atheism dicates or bow your knee to the One who created you les the Creator burn you.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).


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Jean Do you want to make this All a quarrel ????????

danatemporary wrote:
Thanks to you Brian for having the presence of mind to mention that.   I dont know of ANY Xians that behave in any-way like Jean does.

No, you give the board a break!  

 Stop indulging yourself, buddy. I find it very ironic that if you were to carry on the way you have. You'd be immediately "BANNED" on any christian board on the entirety of the NET. Jean I am sure you are great in real life.  But there is something about the anonymity  you have behind that keyboard that turns you into this near monster. Jean on your best of days you are not acting like  the typical  Xian.  That is not a good thing!.  You glory in your shame. All you are doing is inviting a great deal of abuse to be heaped (and over flowing) raining down on you.  If you have to wear a hair shirt, do it somewhere other than the forum.

    Another member luka reminded me this is not supposed to be about personalities or personality wars among members. Please try harder not to single out any one member (including me).  You can do us all the kindness of bring the conversation to where you wanted to in the first place. `What you are doing is not what you've wanted'  You are hugely needing to reconnoiter with the Spirit, in such a way, where you dont get a "F@ck You" out of any of the members. This back and forth is only feeding a pattern of insanity and insults  that brings  the level of conversation  and interaction  all right down. Where is the voice of reason? Use some judgment BEFORE you carry on as you have, K? 

 

Quote:
Jean just said, "But i"m hardcore. I have not been bitten by your poision. I have been guarded by the Holy Spirit. With my weapons of intellect you to kingdom come and you know it. That's why i piss you off. I pissed you off way before the Japen thing. Give me a break.."

  Look, You as a believer, shouldn't U already know Protestant and Roman Catholics alike speak  of being a witness for Christ.  That "witness" is not about "you".  That expression is seen best when others want what you have.  No fewer than  four people on the board say they specifically  dont want you have. Consistently, It's been "all about you". This is what you want from your hardcore self ?

 

 

 

 

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danatemporary wrote:  Look,

danatemporary wrote:
  Look, You as a believer, shouldn't U already know Protestant and Roman Catholics alike speak  of being a witness for Christ.  That "witness" is not about "you".  That expression is seen best when others want what you have.  No fewer than  four people on the board say they specifically  dont want you have. Consistently, It's been "all about you". This is what you want from your hardcore self ?

Make that five.

<---

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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By peculiar coincidence ..

Kapkao wrote:

danatemporary wrote:
Look, You as a believer, shouldn't U already know Protestant and Roman Catholics alike speak  of being a witness for Christ.  That "witness" is not about "you".  That expression is seen best when others want what you have.  No fewer than  four people on the board say they specifically  dont want 'what' you have. Consistently, It's been "all about you". This is what you want from your hardcore self ?

Make that five.

Kapko <---

  I will be selling  and raffling scaled-up exponential numbers in the lobby

 

 


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By peculiar coincidence ..

  Thanks for the correction Kapkao  Smiling   

 

 

 

 

 


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 Sorry for the lack of

 

Sorry for the lack of participation. I have read everything, and I am grateful for the responses. I'll do like what I did in the first post, and bold the parts of this post I hope others will read. I was asked what is there to be scared of. Here's the long answer -

I'm not trying to tell anyone my bio, nor am I trying to get pity. This is honestly what the deal is in short - Besides having a Mom who coddled me too much, I also had an entire family that did the same. I was the baby of the family, and was use to people being nice to me, and fighting every single battle I had for me. Then we moved to a bigger city, and it was not until I was a teenager that reality came crashing down hard, and it's taking me a very long time to grow up.

I've confronted my Ma about this before, and she loves to play the "poor me" angle on me, and often brings up how violent my Father was during my youth, and that she was only trying to make life for me as good as she could. Between that, and watching too many Disney films, I turned into an overly-nice and easily scared guy. I was home schooled too for a while, but when we moved to the big city, my parents put me in public school when I was in 9th grade. It was so messed up too - I go from that, to a big city in high school, and my own Mother expected me to just fall into place........my Mother use to make me have long hair too because she thought it looked "cute", not caring that it only made me into an even bigger outcast among all the hicks. There were some rough years and it was the fault of my parents. It was their job to raise me, and they failed, and tried to make me seem like it was my fault.

It's crazy how you can actually love and hate someone with an equal amount of passion.

 

Because of all the violence I saw growing up, and because of so many Disney films and shows being shoved into me for so long, there's a big part of me that wants peace and for everyone to be happy. By telling others I am not a believer, there's a chance that peace will never happen, and that tension will forever be in the air.

 

However, I am a grown man, a history buff, and here is a fact - Negativity is apart of this earth as much as the sun, the moon, the sky, the stars, and more are, and that I have to accept it. I don't have to embrace it, but I have to believe it is more real then God is, and sometimes, we all have to walk into it to get to peace. And I've also learned there's nothing peaceful about being someone you're not all because you're scared. How can one have true peace when they are scared?


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 Quote:And I've also

 

Quote:
And I've also learned there's nothing peaceful about being someone you're not all because you're scared. How can one have true peace when they are scared?

A little out of order, but I want to address this first. Your intuition is right, you cannot really have peace of mind when you're scared. Whatever it is that's holding you back from what you want, that is the thing that needs to be dealt with. So, kudos to you on being able to admit your fears. That is actually a very courageous thing to do, and there are many (most? by a large majority?) people who never get to that stage. But it is the first stage, and it is necessary. You can't deal with something if you're not even able to recognize it.

Quote:
There were some rough years and it was the fault of my parents. It was their job to raise me, and they failed, and tried to make me seem like it was my fault.

It's crazy how you can actually love and hate someone with an equal amount of passion.

Not as crazy as you might think.

And another kudos for recognizing that it was your parents' job to raise you, and they did fail (though not completely, just in a few important ways). It definitely is not your fault.

However, while it was their responsibility, and they did not manage to give you the love and support you needed, and they are clearly responsible for that lack, I think you might want to reconsider focusing on the words 'their fault'. In one sense, it is correct, and I'm not disputing that at all. But in another way, it has a tendency to lead you down into a 'blame game', and focusing your mental energies on the regrets of the past, rather than focusing more on "Okay, my past sucked, and I know they were responsible for that, so I don't have to blame myself. Now, where will I go from here?" Because it is your present-day experience and your hopes and plans for the future that will be the key to overcoming your fears and any other obstacles that are in your way. It is super-important to understand the past. It's just not good for one's mental health to ruminate on it over and over. Doing that will lead to more fear, possibly depression, and certainly bitterness and dissatisfaction.

I'm not saying that that is what you're doing. I'm just saying it's a common pattern, and you should be aware of it and try not to fall into it. Focus on changing the things that you can change, in your present life, e.g. today, right now. You can't change the past. It's done. The key idea for you now is "recovery". If you're driving along a road in winter and hit a patch of ice and the car goes out of control, it doesn't help to go "Oh that damn ice, they should have salted the roads, those idiots!" You gotta focus on, "Well, regardless, I'm in it now, so I better do something to recover control and balance."

Okay, next. You've mentioned several times your fears and being easily scared. It's good you're aware of that. For a long time, I was not aware of my own fear. I couldn't identify my feelings. If my mother or someone else asked sincerely "How do you feel?" my honest answer to them was invariably, "I don't know." And I didn't know. Or rather, I didn't have the right words, nor the right understanding, nor even a sense of how important it is to have this awareness.

Long story short: I ended up having a crisis at work where I literally (yes, literally) could not move my fingers to type in order to complete a project I had been assigned. I had been struggling with this kind of 'mental barrier' (that's what I called it back then) for a long while, and it got worse and worse, and then I was literally 'stuck'. And this freaked me out. Eventually, I asked myself, "What do you call that? You want to do something. And you should be able to do it. You know how to do it. Nobody is stopping you. Nothing is stopping you. You know exactly what you want to type, you've planned it all out, you've got all the resources you need to do it. And you still can't do it? What the fuck is that?"

Of course, that mysterious force holding back my fingers was simply fear. But I had no awareness of my fear, and had no name for it.

Today, I don't just call it fear. I've learned a lot more about it, and today I call it anxiety. Specifically, I'm diagnosed with Generalized Anxiety Disorder. Which means I'm often afraid, for no particular reason, and I'm not even aware of it. Well, I'm actually much more aware of it now, these days, since getting diagnosed and treated, than I was at first. My first awareness was of my body's response to fear. My stomach would be tight, my muscles tense and stiff, by breathing very shallow. Then I became aware of my thought-patterns, worrying about the future, re-playing old conflicts in my memory, always imagining the 'worst case scenario', etc.

Anyway, the point is simply that, while I'm no doctor or expert, your story makes me think you might want to bring up these issues with a doctor or counsellor of some kind, to get local support from a mental health professional. Personally, I would recommend it. It was the key to really getting a handle on my anxiety. Today, anxiety is much less a part of my life, and my improved awareness of it allows me to catch it early and to take preventative measures (e.g. breathing deeply, relaxing muscles, focusing on something in the present moment (rather than past or future)), so that it rarely gets even close to the level it was at only a year or two ago. I am also taking some medication (actually an anti-depressant, which also happens to work for anxiety), and that was the other big thing that has helped. Actually, there's one more thing, which is called Cognitive Behavioural Therapy. It's great, and it fits nicely with a rational mind (no woo woo crap), and even has a significant amount of scientific evidence to back it up (unlike other forms of counselling, which usually have a little bit, but not much, and usually don't show very much benefit overall). Also, CBT is a skill that you learn, and you can either learn it on your own without a paid counsellor, or you can get a head-start with the help of a counsellor, and then once you learn it, you just do it on your own, and don't need to continue counselling.

Zeeboe wrote:

I've confronted my Ma about this before, and she loves to play the "poor me" angle on me, and often brings up how violent my Father was during my youth, and that she was only trying to make life for me as good as she could. ...my Mother use to make me have long hair too because she thought it looked "cute", not caring that it only made me into an even bigger outcast among all the hicks.

I don't think you'll be able to get the kind of feedback you need from your parents. Unfortunately, while it takes years of education to become any kind of professional anything, all it takes to become a 'professional' parent are a working set of genitals. Many people are hopelessly clueless about parenting. You don't even need a license.

You're going to have to get through this phase without expecting too much from your mother. She may simply be unable to really help. Again, I would recommend finding local support. Of course, we're here too, but it's not quite the same as being able to talk to someone face-to-face about this stuff.

Good luck! Honestly, I think you've already done the hardest part, which is the self-awareness. Once you can identify the issue, you can deal with it in time.

 

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Oops, forgot this

Oops, forgot this part:

Quote:
Because of all the violence I saw growing up, and because of so many Disney films and shows being shoved into me for so long, there's a big part of me that wants peace and for everyone to be happy. By telling others I am not a believer, there's a chance that peace will never happen, and that tension will forever be in the air.

Well, it goes both ways with that last sentence. If you tell them, there may be tension. But if you don't tell them, there will be tension, within yourself, because you want to tell them, or at least not have to hide it, as you said.

What needs to happen here is for you to get to a point where you are comfortable enough with yourself, in your own skin, that you no longer have the fear of honestly expressing what you really think without undue self-censorship.

Now, that doesn't mean you have to out-and-out tell everybody everything about you. It just means that, if the topic ever comes up in conversation, you know you'll be able to handle it fine, without compromising yourself. Whether that comes out simply as, "Yeah, sorry man, I tried that stuff before and it doesn't work for me. Never has. I gave it up a while ago. Thanks, not interested." Or whether it comes out as, "You believe that stuff?! It's crazy! And here's why ..." That's totally up to you, and depends entirely on what you are comfortable with. But if you can't authentically be you, for fear of whatever, then as you said, there will never be real peace.

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Thanks for the

Thanks for the response natural. I tell ya, I would never admit any fears to anyone in real life because I know better then that. And these days, I honestly have no problem telling people I am not a believer. The thing is, sometimes beforehand, I take too long of a second to tell them and/or I get butterflies in my stomach, hearts starts to beats fast, etc. But then I tell them, and all is fine.

So I like to think I am not a coward because a coward runs away from his fears, whereas I have been able to face them. It's just learning how not to be scared that I am curious about, but I guess the best answer is - Keep doing what I'm doing, and in do time, I won't be. I told a young woman over the phone that I recently met about not being a Christian, and was okay. I guess it all depends on the person.

 

I can't help but blame my father for this fear - I couldn't tell him anything without him getting furious, and he used to scare the heck outta me. I use to also say "sorry" waaaay to much to people. Again, that blame belongs to my father. He'd actually SCREAM at me if I made a mistake. He's a much better person now that he doesn't do drugs, but back then, drugs were his whole life.

 

But anyhow, I agree getting some help would be a good idea. At this time however, I am not able to because of the $. So I try to be my own shrink when out there in the jungle. I like to think I am better then what I use to be. It just depresses me because I am pushing 30, and the things I have been doing and thinking are things I should have been doing as a teenager. Sad Mentally and socially, I am aging very, very slowly.

My answer to it all is - Never quit. Never, never quit. Keep making mistakes over and over again, don't worry what strangers think, keep doing things that scare me, and in due time, I will get use to it and get braver and get smarter. That is how our ancesters learned, and that is how I intend to learn too.


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Zeeboe wrote:Thanks for the

Zeeboe wrote:

Thanks for the response natural. I tell ya, I would never admit any fears to anyone in real life because I know better then that. And these days, I honestly have no problem telling people I am not a believer. The thing is, sometimes beforehand, I take too long of a second to tell them and/or I get butterflies in my stomach, hearts starts to beats fast, etc. But then I tell them, and all is fine.

So I like to think I am not a coward because a coward runs away from his fears, whereas I have been able to face them. It's just learning how not to be scared that I am curious about, but I guess the best answer is - Keep doing what I'm doing, and in do time, I won't be. I told a young woman over the phone that I recently met about not being a Christian, and was okay. I guess it all depends on the person.

Yes, keep doing that. The way to overcome fears/phobias is exposure, as opposed to avoidance. Avoidance (feeling fear and then running from it) reinforces the fear with relief. Exposure, facing the fear and waiting until the fear subsides, decreases the fear response the next time around, and makes it easier and easier to face it time and again.

Quote:
I can't help but blame my father for this fear - I couldn't tell him anything without him getting furious, and he used to scare the heck outta me. I use to also say "sorry" waaaay to much to people. Again, that blame belongs to my father. He'd actually SCREAM at me if I made a mistake. He's a much better person now that he doesn't do drugs, but back then, drugs were his whole life.

Again, I do not doubt that you are correct. Just realize that focusing on blame (the Blame Game) is detrimental to your mental health in the long run. It causes anxiety, depression, anger/rage. It's important to know and understand the past; that's how we learn to do things differently. But what you need to focus on after that understanding (which you already seem to have) is the Here and Now, and focus on changing the things you can change now. You will never be able to change the past. Unfortunate, but true.

Quote:
But anyhow, I agree getting some help would be a good idea. At this time however, I am not able to because of the $. So I try to be my own shrink when out there in the jungle. I like to think I am better then what I use to be. It just depresses me because I am pushing 30, and the things I have been doing and thinking are things I should have been doing as a teenager. Sad Mentally and socially, I am aging very, very slowly.

I was thinking that might be the case. Well, you still have options.

First, I have been given several different recommendations by several different mental health professionals for this book: Mind Over Mood: Change How You Feel by Changing the Way You Think . It's a Cognitive Behavioural Therapy workbook, so you can teach yourself CBT. Haven't tried it myself, since I'm already pretty familiar with CBT, but I did buy a copy based on the multiple recommendations.

Quote:
My answer to it all is - Never quit. Never, never quit. Keep making mistakes over and over again, don't worry what strangers think, keep doing things that scare me, and in due time, I will get use to it and get braver and get smarter. That is how our ancesters learned, and that is how I intend to learn too.

One thing else to remember. Take it easy on yourself, don't be hard on yourself. You're already well on the way to recovery. You've got awareness, and you're already doing the right things (exposure) to overcome your fears. That's freaking awesome! Give yourself some encouragement for that. This is one of the things I've learned recently how to do. At first it was pretty alien to me to give myself encouragement. It felt too 'woo woo'-ish. But there's no need for any woo woo interpretation. It's simply self-talk and activating the reward mechanisms that are built into our brains.

These days, I use a funny story about a nephew who is one year old and learning to walk. When he walks into a room, he looks around to make sure everyone is looking at him, and then he raises both his arms, and everybody is supposed to go, "Yayyy!!!" It's such a cute and funny story (I haven't actually met the little guy) that I've taken up, as a kind of joke at first, to say "Yayyy!!" out loud when I do something positive. It was surprising when I realized that it actually worked, to help reward and reinforce my new positive behaviours.

If instead I did my old habit of saying things to myself like, "Yeah, I did that little thing, but I still have all these other things to do." Then there would be no reward, no positive feedback, no reinforcement.

Use positive reinforcement on yourself, not negative. You don't have to go all "Positive Thinking" crap, you don't have to lie to yourself at all. Just make the little wins rewarding, and don't discount them with worry or self-criticism.

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I forgot to mention that

I forgot to mention that there may also be low-cost or free counselling in your area, depending on where you are. You might try looking around to see what different organizations are providing.

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I would be hesitant to label

I would be hesitant to label yourself a coward, being afraid or worried about the outcome does not mean you are cowardly, courage comes from doing what you ARE afraid of doing. As far as the situation you find yourself in, i have trouble relating to that since i have never really been beat over the head about faith and church, my family was never the churchgoing type, even though my mother and sister are into the whole god fable. Up until i was in my early and mid teens i really did not acknowledge that i was an atheist unless i was asked or was in a situation where it came up, i did not shy away from telling people, but did not bring it up either, the only person i ever hesitated discussing it with was my mother, and only because i did not want the headache of having to hear about it later on.

My advice is to just get it out of the way and make it a mater of public record that you gave up on superstition, there is something amazingly liberating about being a proud atheist in public, walking with your head high, when you no longer have to pretend in order to fit in. You might need some time to get used to it, but over time, it WILL become as casual as breathing, you will probably not even give it a second thought after a while.

If it turns out that there is a God, I don’t think that he’s evil. But the worst that you can say about him is that basically he’s an underachiever.


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Burden of Proof

Hey,

I understand where you're coming from. It is difficult to express your disbelief in a heavily Christian area. I live in a small town in South Dakota where virtually everyone is some brand of Christian or another.  The one piece of logic that has helped me is that the philosophic burden of proof rests upon the person who makes the claim just as in science the burden of evidence rests upon whomever is making a claim. A theist is claiming that there is a god, he is making a claim. An atheist, a non-theist simply does not subscribe to the story being offered and is making no claim that need be substantiated.

"We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further" -Richard Dawkins

My advice is to read anything and everything you can get your hands on from both sides of the fence so that you can make an informed decision beyond "agnostic" and be able to defend it if need be. Know and be solid with where YOU stand and the rest will be a bit easier for you.

 

 

 

 

"Religion has ever been anti-human, anti-woman, anti-life, anti-peace, anti-reason and anti-science. The god idea has been detrimental not only to humankind but to the earth. It is time now for reason, education and science to take over."
– Madalyn Murray O’Hair


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Zeeboe, don't you live over

Zeeboe, don't you live over in Austin?  You're in Austin, dude.   The Hippy center of Texas.   The churches even embrace gay couples in that town.

"Keep Austin weird."

I had a guy over here walk up to me and start talking about god and I just stated matter of factly that I used to believe but made the mistake of actually thinking.   That led me to not be able to believe in it anymore.   I didn't decide to stop believing.   You can't just decide to believe or not believe in something.

It just doesn't make any sense.  If anyone gets made by something out of your control that's their problem.   Not yours.

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


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If it makes you feel any

If it makes you feel any better, I would have been driven insane being around so many hardcore theists of any kind. I had a hard time just running into a couple of them, and the treatment I received at their hands lit in me a fire that would have cost me greatly in such an environment. I would have constantly gotten into fights, and probably ended up being expelled from multiple schools. Worst case scenario would see me dead or in prison.
There isn't necessarily anything wrong with being scared, and depending on the circumstances you may have more than enough reason to justify your fears. As has been suggested, the best thing to do is expose yourself to conflicts between religion and other religions and non-religion, without jumping into the fray until you feel ready and/or compelled to jump in.

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Little late in replying

Little late in replying here, okay very late, but anyhow - Yeah, I live in Austin, but sadly the area I live in has a lot of Conservative Christians and cowboys and rednecks and other people that scare me, and who just desire to be "normal". I wish there were more so-called "freaks" out there.


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...

I'm kind of at the other end of the spectrum. It's very difficult for me to hold my views inside if I hear something that doesn't make sense, or if I know what they are saying is factually incorrect. I personally do not think it's rude to argue with someone, as long as you are not attacking them personally. The thing is, many people take it as a personal attack if you say something negative about their beloved religion. Try to find a freethinking type group in your area to find more similar minded people to hang out with. That might make things less annoying. One way to be non confrontational is to just ask them questions about what  they believe. Just try to learn more about them and why they think the way they do. I wish I could be more confrontational myself but most of the religious people I'm around are at work, and it's usually not a good idea to get into a religious discussion there.


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I am happy to report I am a

I am happy to report I am a lot more ballsy then I was before. If people ask me if I go to church, or what church I go to, or if I'll pray for someone, I look them dead in the eye and either say "I'm Agnostic" or "I'm not religious".


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Zeeboe

                 Since you live in Austin  why don't you check out the http://www.atheistexperience.com . The podcast live on Sundays at 4:30 your time then meet up at El Arroyo's restaurant after the show, that's an open invitation to all Austin atheists, tell Russel Glasser Jeffrick sent you. Also on channel 16 in Austin.

 

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Hi OPIE

Hello,

Look numb nuts. you were never a christian ever. lol. I John 2:19. You don't join christianity like a club membership. Either God saves you, or He damns you, it appears youv'e been damned from eternity (Romans 9:21-22).

Apostates like yourself typically burn in hell in really hot spots hotter then most wicked people.

Go run your life wild like these guys, that will help. Have adultery a few times, maybe rob a bank, then you wil no longer be a coward. And you would be doing yourself a favor since those evil acts are consistent to your religion.

Enjoy being tortured in hell.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).


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Jean Chauvin

Jean Chauvin wrote:

Hello,

Look numb nuts. you were never a christian ever. lol. I John 2:19. You don't join christianity like a club membership. Either God saves you, or He damns you, it appears youv'e been damned from eternity (Romans 9:21-22).

Apostates like yourself typically burn in hell in really hot spots hotter then most wicked people.

Go run your life wild like these guys, that will help. Have adultery a few times, maybe rob a bank, then you wil no longer be a coward. And you would be doing yourself a favor since those evil acts are consistent to your religion.

Enjoy being tortured in hell.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

To the original poster who asked how they could be more brave when dealing with theists.

Here is how you do it. Not with all theists because everything is situational and not all theists are dicks like Jean here. But I'll deal with him now, to demonstrate how to deal with pricks.

Jean, your projecting your bullshit "true Scotsman" fallacy. It didn't work the last time you used it, and it doesn't work when others use it.

I was a Christian and I have no doubt the op was. You don't own any legal rights as to how people view their holy books. How someone behaves does not change the label they hold. Beyond Saving is an atheist, and so am I but we have NOTHING in common other than that.

But if I wanted to be a Christian, you Jean certainly are the worst example of what I would want a Christian to be. You are a self centered bigoted asshole. You don't even constitute a decent human being, regardless of what label you hold.

To the op. What he doesnt get is that humans are individuals. Sharing a label doesn't change the fact that we are individuals. I doubt that such a self deluded asshole like Jean is ever going to get it or even care. He is simply a child throwing a tantrum trying to get attention.

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Jean Chauvin
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Hi Red Head

Hi Red,

the Bible specifically says this in I John 2:19:

Quote:
  They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Logically speaking, if you're going to claim that you were once a chrisitan, then you must use christian thinking to justify that. But the Scriptures which you possess you once adhered to if you were a christian says that you were NEVER a christian. lol.

If you now try to say this scripture was wrong based on experience then you are using an emotional reaction fo an argument and thus are being absurd like you typically are my friend.

why would i be the worst example if i'm still a christian and you're an atheist. Logically if you hypothetically were a christian and turned atheist, you were the worse christian lol. funny.

Typically the morals go before the intellectual thinking. So OPIE, if you were to be consistent in your atheism by being a criminal, this will cause you to harden even more making you not a coward. However, you will and all atheists will always be a coward since they deny what is truth because they are as blind as bats.

Red, your example stunk more then a skunk cralling out of another skunks ass, but because we're friends, i'll give you another chance. a do over.

go.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).


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Quote:Typically the morals

Quote:
Typically the morals go before the intellectual thinking. So OPIE, if you were to be consistent in your atheism by being a criminal

Way to advocate for your super hero, dissent is a crime. Hitler thought dissent was a crime too.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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 I guess the guy who fears

 I guess the guy who fears talking snake's and raining frogs missed my post so I will type it again - I am a lot more braver then I was before. I look Christians dead in the eye and tell them I am not religious. Like any almost anything else in life, things take practice. I blame my Christian upbringing on the yellow streak I once had. I compare myself to the Cowardly Lion in a lot of ways. I was a coward for a long time, and I always hoped God would give me courage, much like the Cowardly Lion hoped the Wizard of Oz would give him courage. Well, like the Cowardly Lion, I discovered at the end, that I always had courage, and that the answers to all my prayers are within me to make them happen. I don't need The Wizard of Oz or God to make any of my wishes to come true. As far as whether I was a real Christian or not - Not gonna waste time on that topic. I have nothing to prove, and whether I am believed to have been a real Christian or not is irreverent. In all honesty, I wish I never had been introduced to Christianity. I would probably be a Doctor or something if I had not been. If you desire to spend the only life you will ever get believing in a fairy tale, and fearing a Hell that men invented to coerce people into believing in their God, that is your business.


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Zeeboe wrote: I guess the

Zeeboe wrote:

 I guess the guy who fears talking snake's and raining frogs missed my post so I will type it again - I am a lot more braver then I was before. I look Christians dead in the eye and tell them I am not religious. Like any almost anything else in life, things take practice. I blame my Christian upbringing on the yellow streak I once had. I compare myself to the Cowardly Lion in a lot of ways. I was a coward for a long time, and I always hoped God would give me courage, much like the Cowardly Lion hoped the Wizard of Oz would give him courage. Well, like the Cowardly Lion, I discovered at the end, that I always had courage, and that the answers to all my prayers are within me to make them happen. I don't need The Wizard of Oz or God to make any of my wishes to come true. As far as whether I was a real Christian or not - Not gonna waste time on that topic. I have nothing to prove, and whether I am believed to have been a real Christian or not is irreverent. In all honesty, I wish I never had been introduced to Christianity. I would probably be a Doctor or something if I had not been. If you desire to spend the only life you will ever get believing in a fairy tale, and fearing a Hell that men invented to coerce people into believing in their God, that is your business.

I think everything has to be taken into context. We cannot de convert 7 billion people, so "bravery" is also knowing who to take on and who just merely makes claims you roll your eyes to. I think the best our species can do is keep religion on a leash, not by oppression, but by keeping government neutral.

I think we have no choice but to be brave collectively when it comes to defending science and education ESPECIALLY, but also challenging pulpit politics which causes division within a country and globally as well. Those are things we cannot ignore.

But I was a "coward" to because of the deep seeded societal indoctrination that "you just believed". So when I first tested the atheist waters on the net, I needlessly feared that I might be lead into a evil cult. And I also feared challenging theists in debate, because back then, I didn't know shit as compared to today.

But I do not fear debate anymore, there is nothing that any theists can argue that will shake me.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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Jean Chauvin

Jean Chauvin wrote:

Hello,

Look numb nuts. you were never a christian ever. lol. I John 2:19. You don't join christianity like a club membership. Either God saves you, or He damns you, it appears youv'e been damned from eternity (Romans 9:21-22).

Apostates like yourself typically burn in hell in really hot spots hotter then most wicked people.

Go run your life wild like these guys, that will help. Have adultery a few times, maybe rob a bank, then you wil no longer be a coward. And you would be doing yourself a favor since those evil acts are consistent to your religion.

Enjoy being tortured in hell.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

I've seen many of your posts and I'm confused about what you think you really are; christian or what-to-be-christian.

Are you one of those people who picks and chooses the passages which support your opinions?

You appear to lack love, compassion, understanding or patience for any one other than yourself. Which by the way, why are you here on these forums? To save us? or to ridicule us?

I think you need to re-read your bible. There are several passages which point out you are not in good standing with your creator.


 

Free will is an illusion. People always choose the perceived path of greatest pleasure.

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Jean Chauvin
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Hello

Hello, Oh Brian, It is not good to be a criminal. it is very evil. But it is the atheist way. So the more consistent an atheist is, the more of a criminal they are, which will cause them to be arrested, and hopefully put in prison. But consistently is a sign that you adhere to the soundness of your path.

Mr. Coward, you are religious. You are a selfish bastard and you worship yourself. The Humanists say they're religious, but i know you're not humanist, you just do every single thing and believe in every way they do. The atheist denominatin of humanism says this and you say that.

There are so many atheist denominations you atheists don't know how to be an atheist anymore .

May i say to the last guy that perhaps He becamse an atheist because he never saw what a Christina looks like. Chrisitanity is not a bunch of people who kiss puppies and slide down rainbows. I'm afraid many fake chrisitans are this way and thus the atheist population increase.

Perhaps if you would have read your Bible and studied it like you were suppose to you would not have slid down to foolishness and stupidity of your atheistic religion of hate and christianophoia.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).


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Hmm.

I am selfish because I desire to have equal rights? Was Moses selfish because he desired for his people to be free? Anyhow, I have the humility to admit my faults, and I work on them. The fact that you have to use the same insult I said about myself proves you do not have the brains yo come up with your own insults. No originality. But then again, you are a Christian so it should come as no surprise. You do not know how to think for yourself. It was my studying of the bible that cause me to become an Athiest by the way. I need documentation before I can brlieve in your God. You have no more proof for the existence of God then you do for the Flying Spaggetti Monster.

 


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Zeeboe wrote:I am selfish

Zeeboe wrote:

I am selfish because I desire to have equal rights? Was Moses selfish because he desired for his people to be free? Anyhow, I have the humility to admit my faults, and I work on them. The fact that you have to use the same insult I said about myself proves you do not have the brains yo come up with your own insults. No originality. But then again, you are a Christian so it should come as no surprise. You do not know how to think for yourself. It was my studying of the bible that cause me to become an Athiest by the way. I need documentation before I can brlieve in your God. You have no more proof for the existence of God then you do for the Flying Spaggetti Monster.

 

I wouldn't worry too much about Jean. Initially he did piss me off, and I most certainly loath him as an individual, but just keep reminding idiots like him that he worships his interpretation of a god as being a hostage taker willing to put a gun to a third party's head to threaten the rest of us. That is what he has claimed his god does.

I am glad most theists in the west realize that they live under governments that do not tolerate violence in the name of religion.

Just let him make an ass of himself, he does that well without help.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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 Typing on my phone is a

 Typing on my phone is a bitch sometimes. Lol. And it sucks because the option to edit and fix the typos is not an option. That is the only thing that bothers me, not this troll. Smiling


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As someone who has offended

As someone who has offended a co-worker by making a disparaging comment about water-dowsing and experienced the unexpected discomfort of having a nurse practitioner tell me, after I had survived something I wouldn't have survived had I suffered more damage than the efforts of doctors could repair, that "God must have a plan for you" I share your frustration of living among believers in magic. I understand why you feel that you are not holding true to your beliefs (or lack thereof) if you don't contradict every opposing view. However it is just a self-manufactured mental trap not unlike the one I create for myself whenever I'm tempted to type OMG or respond traditionally to a sneeze.  Unless you have the opportunity to affect change (i.e. vote on a proposition) or save a life (i.e. ummm...prevent a lynching?) you are under no obligation to take a stand and deserve no accusation of cowardice.

 

 

 

 

Evolution is not JUST a theory. It isn't a theory at all. The theory of evolution; now THAT's a theory.


Jean Chauvin
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Hello

Hello,

You guys hate me because i'm consistent in Chrisitanity. Little girls like that old seer guy and others who call themselves Chrisitans are like candy for you atheists. When i join in i' like a tank running you over.

Brian, you have not given me one single argument against Christianity or any of the views I have that are found in Scripture. It is not what I think but I simply reflect what is in Scripture. This shows that you're nothing but a fiedistic non intelligent person. Give me an argument.

My God is the one found in the Bible.

The guy who almost died or whatever and that's why you don't believe in God? pain and torture are not excuses to embrace paganism but just the opposite. For pain is often used for us to lean on Him more, or as punishment for His own and for the children of satan.

Oh and Chrisitans that are watching this, boldness is the way to go. If you notice, the owner of this site is so intimidated of me that he rarely rarely engages with  me in discourse but rather changes my position on my posts into an ad homine logical fallacy.

If you wish to learn how to kick ass contact for advice.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).