PROOF! A QUESTION FOR THE ATHIEST...

BELOVED
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PROOF! A QUESTION FOR THE ATHIEST...

It is interesting that this site would use the term RATIONAL to describe it's cause. It seems quite irrational to claim with such certainty that there is no God. 

You have NO proof that God doesn't exist and I therefore question your integrity. It would seem that, at best, you would be forced to admit your lack of surety and label yourself as a seeker of truth, as opposed to a possessor of it.

Please explain how you could mock something you don't know for sure isn't real?


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This isn't the type of

This isn't the type of argument that I enjoy.  When logical fallacies are laid on thick and the objections waved out of hand... it sort of alludes to Banana Man's arguments.  It makes my head hurt a little because there is so much wrong with every statement.  And it is getting crowded in here...

 

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Additional question: Has

Additional question: Has anyone seen this movie, and is there anything new in it that hasn't been said a million times by apologists like Beloved?


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The absence of evidence is

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

I was really hoping that coming on this site might somehow change my beliefs and lower my faith. For practically every 'flaw' many athiests pointed out there was in the Bible, there was reason to it, and further research and understanding was what was required. But from all I've read, none of the arguments I've seen from hardcore athiests prove God does not exist.


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jesstacia wrote:The absence

jesstacia wrote:

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

I was really hoping that coming on this site might somehow change my beliefs and lower my faith. For practically every 'flaw' many athiests pointed out there was in the Bible, there was reason to it, and further research and understanding was what was required. But from all I've read, none of the arguments I've seen from hardcore athiests prove God does not exist.

Why do you keep asking us to prove he doesn't exist when you can't prove he does?

You don't get to win by default. I have no problem saying that I could be wrong on the existence of God and have no issue with how I see the rest of the world. If you agreed that you could be wrong on God's existence, the way you see the world would collapse because your belief about God's existence is the only thing holding it up.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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jesstacia wrote:The absence

jesstacia wrote:

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

I was really hoping that coming on this site might somehow change my beliefs and lower my faith. For practically every 'flaw' many athiests pointed out there was in the Bible, there was reason to it, and further research and understanding was what was required. But from all I've read, none of the arguments I've seen from hardcore athiests prove God does not exist.

Maybe you'd have less faith if you started asking for proof that god does exist.

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


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...

jesstacia wrote:

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

I was really hoping that coming on this site might somehow change my beliefs and lower my faith. For practically every 'flaw' many athiests pointed out there was in the Bible, there was reason to it, and further research and understanding was what was required. But from all I've read, none of the arguments I've seen from hardcore athiests prove God does not exist.

 

It's not always true that the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.  If you claim there's a giant, visible giraffe in my backyard, all I have to do to disprove that claim is look in my backyard.  If there's an absence of evidence for the giraffe, then that counts as evidence against it.  It gets trickier with an all-powerful being that can hide easily.

And as far as you not reading any arguments on here from atheists proving that God does not exist, you don't need proof against something's existence to not believe in it.  Do you believe in fairies?

 

 


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jesstacia wrote:I was really

jesstacia wrote:
I was really hoping that coming on this site might somehow change my beliefs and lower my faith.

You were "hoping" ? Why ? Does your faith trouble you ? Just put it aside then. You really don't need us for that.

 

 

jesstacia wrote:
For practically every 'flaw' many athiests pointed out there was in the Bible, there was reason to it, and further research and understanding was what was required. But from all I've read, none of the arguments I've seen from hardcore athiests prove God does not exist.

This sentence proves you didn't even bother to read the arguments you're talking about.

*sigh*

 


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For a being which is

For a being which is supposed to be omni-present, watching over us, and intervening in our affairs, absence of evidence is very definitely evidence of absence.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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dear beloved

If it is irrational to claim with certainty that there is no god, explain to us why. Just stating that you think it is irrational does not make it so. Prove it. BTW, the bible is not proof. As stated here before, there are many other books making the same claim. You must prove yours is the right one, again with evidence, not a quote from your book because the other religions can do the same thing. I have no proof that the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus don't exist either, except that proof that they do exist has never been presented. If you want us to believe in YOUR god, present proof please. Nothing less will be accepted. I can mock everything I don't know for sure is real. When they appear before me and tell me I need to stop, I will, otherwise I'd be afraid to say anything for fear of offending some being or other I can't prove doesn't exist. Are you afraid of Allah, the easter bunny, or santa claus? By your very belief in the christian god, you mock all the other religions, so how are we different?

In post 8 you said: "My proof is in my heart...which is completely rational...if it's true. A truth which I testify is something I live out and enjoy...but was also written about 2000 years ago by goat herders on the middle east."
This proof is also not proof. We can make the same claim. My proof that god doesn't exist can be claimed to be in my heart. if I didn't accept the reasonable conclusion that finding no proof that a god exists is sufficient, I can claim I just know it in my heart. this is very convenient, because it can't be refuted. It is a claim without proof or knowledge and so is meaningless. Only a claim that you can objectively prove is meaningful. Please show us some objective proof that god exists. (no bible. referencing the bible is like showing me a Spider-Man comic to prove Spider-Man exists.)


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BELOVED wrote:I seriously

BELOVED wrote:

I seriously laughed at the term woo-woo christian. Smiling

I am sorry if I misunderstood your request for a leg...I thought it was in response to the story about a man coming back from the dead...and needing similar physical proofs.

I think in your recent post you wondered about God's care for you. and while we both agree it is not evidenced by a regrown leg....God does demonstrate his love for you...he has his people going door to door, being mocked and ridiculed, going to far off countries to share his truth... and while you deny his existence, here he has me reasoning with you...for your sake.  Not to mention Sending His Son to DIE for you. He has faithfully allowed the sun to rise, your stomach to rise in breathing, your heart to know love and laughter. These are things He has given you....if you need the scripture to back up these truth...please ask. I'm just saying....don't look away from God and claim he abandoned you...look at what HE HAS done....we all were born corrupted...but Christ is the anectdote...an expensive one.

 

yep - woo woo.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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cj wrote:BELOVED wrote:I

cj wrote:

BELOVED wrote:

I seriously laughed at the term woo-woo christian. Smiling

I am sorry if I misunderstood your request for a leg...I thought it was in response to the story about a man coming back from the dead...and needing similar physical proofs.

I think in your recent post you wondered about God's care for you. and while we both agree it is not evidenced by a regrown leg....God does demonstrate his love for you...he has his people going door to door, being mocked and ridiculed, going to far off countries to share his truth... and while you deny his existence, here he has me reasoning with you...for your sake.  Not to mention Sending His Son to DIE for you. He has faithfully allowed the sun to rise, your stomach to rise in breathing, your heart to know love and laughter. These are things He has given you....if you need the scripture to back up these truth...please ask. I'm just saying....don't look away from God and claim he abandoned you...look at what HE HAS done....we all were born corrupted...but Christ is the anectdote...an expensive one.

 

yep - woo woo.

 

Don't you love it when they're unintentionally correct? Christ is indeed an anecdote.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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nude0007 wrote:In post 8 you

nude0007 wrote:

In post 8 you said: "My proof is in my heart...which is completely rational...if it's true. A truth which I testify is something I live out and enjoy...but was also written about 2000 years ago by goat herders on the middle east."

 

I missed that.  But you know, that has to be one of the sillier sayings humans have come up with.  That some feeling is in your heart.  I just had an echocardiogram and there is nothing in your heart except muscle, blood, veins, arteries, all that physical stuff.  No emotions or feelings that I could see.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

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jcgadfly wrote:cj

jcgadfly wrote:

cj wrote:

BELOVED wrote:

...but Christ is the anectdote...an expensive one.

yep - woo woo.

Don't you love it when they're unintentionally correct? Christ is indeed an anecdote.

 

I didn't catch that the first time around.  I was too busy rolling my eyes about all the entire post.  But yeah, your interpretation is spot on.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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Even if a guy called Jesus

Even if a guy called Jesus allowed himself to be arrested and executed by the Romans, that proves absolutely nothing. He may even have believed he was doing something that was somehow going to help other people, and even future generations in some way.

So what?

It is up to you to show just how this actually benefited anyone in some demonstrable way. Even if the story inspired some people to make different life choices, you have to show this was a significant net benefit to mankind, and that the whole thing could only have happened if there was a God figure behind it all. Just what action in that story is beyond human psychology?

All the extra 'meaning' you see in the crucifiction account only 'works' if you already accept the God story in the first place!! It cannot be proof of it!!

Even if a God arranged it, it still doesn't prove it was any more than a stunt to impress us gullible mortals. Again, you have to already believe that the being who is supposed to have drowned every one on earth apart from one drunken fool and his family, destroyed whole cities to 'punish' them for pissing him off, and so on, 'really loves us', and not in the way an abusive husband really loves his wife.

The whole story is absurd beyond belief.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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jesstacia wrote:The absence

jesstacia wrote:

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

I was really hoping that coming on this site might somehow change my beliefs and lower my faith. For practically every 'flaw' many athiests pointed out there was in the Bible, there was reason to it, and further research and understanding was what was required. But from all I've read, none of the arguments I've seen from hardcore athiests prove God does not exist.

Actually, yes, the absence of evidence IS the evidence of absence. However, I did post a link to an argument that I believe is irrefutable by christians earlier in the thread,and I'll post another one

here.

 


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jesstacia wrote: The absence

jesstacia wrote:
The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

If it's the case that you hold to that idea, then the logical extension of holding that position would also be that 'The presence of evidence is not the evidence of presence'.

There's no place for double standards in the pursuit of certainty.

jesstacia wrote:
I was really hoping that coming on this site might somehow change my beliefs and lower my faith.

Then fear is the only thing preventing you from seeing all the scientific reasons why skepticism of supernatural claims is the better and more progressive methodology.

jesstacia wrote:
 ...further research and understanding was what was required. 

aka Special pleading fallacy.

jesstacia wrote:
 But from all I've read, none of the arguments I've seen from hardcore athiests prove God does not exist.

The banal, weak, hackneyed, intellectually bankrupt earmark of arrested development, desperately attempting to shift the burden away from itself.

I can't prove Elvis is dead, either.

There's no escape from the question of why should one believe, either that Elvis is still alive, and that a god exists.

The reasons given by 'believers' why they 'do' believe, are all fallacies.

Period.

The real question is why 'should' anyone 'believe'.

 

I'm still waiting to hear an answer to that question that is worth contemplating...

 

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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What is with the

jesstacia wrote:

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

I was really hoping that coming on this site might somehow change my beliefs and lower my faith. For practically every 'flaw' many athiests pointed out there was in the Bible, there was reason to it, and further research and understanding was what was required. But from all I've read, none of the arguments I've seen from hardcore athiests prove God does not exist.

 

appeals to ignorance from you? I thought Russell's teapot put this trash out long ago. There is no way to prove absolutely there is no god outside this space time. Nor is there any way to prove it's not all the work of the High Llama. The fact there is the vanishingly small possibility of a thing does not make it so. We leave that door open out of honesty but you seem to see the merest sliver of doubt in the absence of any supporting evidence at all, as all the proof you need. 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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BELOVED wrote:It is

BELOVED wrote:

It is interesting that this site would use the term RATIONAL to describe it's cause. It seems quite irrational to claim with such certainty that there is no God. 

You have NO proof that God doesn't exist and I therefore question your integrity. It would seem that, at best, you would be forced to admit your lack of surety and label yourself as a seeker of truth, as opposed to a possessor of it.

Please explain how you could mock something you don't know for sure isn't real?

"God does not exist" is not "mocking" anymore than saying that the earth is not flat is "mocking"

But even for example I said, "God likes back door action", THAT would be mocking.

Even if someone is "mocking", why would such a being need you to defend it? He can't defend himself although he is all powerful? And what would it say about this alleged character's morality placing getting picked on as it's top priority in a world full of disease, famine and natural disaster, crime and war? REALLY? Your god is more concerned with being called names?

To address "You can't prove he doesn't exist"

See if you can spot the pattern.

"You cant prove Allah doesn't exist"

"You cant prove Yahweh doesn't exist"

"You cant prove Vishnu doesn't exist"

Are all those claims true merely because someone has the human right to go around claiming them?

If you are going to by a claim ON ANY ISSUE, merely because someone uttered words out of their mouth, that sets you up to buy all sorts of absurdities.

I could be a used car salesman and sell you a piece of junk of a car, with that attitude.

You, "I want to buy a car"

Salesman "Buy this one, it is a pretty blue"

You, "Can I take it to a mechanic to have it independently inspected"

Salesman, "No, just buy it because it is blue"

You, "Ok"

Everyone has the right to claim whatever they want, but that is a completely separate issue than having the ability to demonstrate the credibility of a given claim, ON ANY ISSUE, not just god/s or religion.

You don't buy Allah merely because someone goes around claiming his existence. So the only difference between you and I is that I reject one more god than you do. Understand why the lack of evidence for Allah causes you not to buy that as a position of reality, and you will understand why I reject your pet god claim as well.

Claims ON ANY ISSUE, are not automatically true merely because someone can string words together in a sentence.

NOW, again, what I am addressing is not just about why I reject all god claims. But what constitutes good use of logic, vs bad use of logic. Good use of logic starts with data and bases it on that data. It doesn't guess and then work backwards to retrofit to one's own desires.

ONLY A FOOL would buy a car without inspecting it. Unfortunately our species won't apply inspection to their own pet god/s.

 

 

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Beloved absence

 I think our dearly beloved  is of the type to proselytize and run.  I don't think she's coming back, so even though Brian and Bob have stated what I said in more detail and perhaps in a better way, I don't think she'll be back to see it.   I doubt we would make a difference, she seemed very irrational to me.


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nude0007 wrote: I think our

nude0007 wrote:

 I think our dearly beloved  is of the type to proselytize and run.  I don't think she's coming back, so even though Brian and Bob have stated what I said in more detail and perhaps in a better way, I don't think she'll be back to see it.   I doubt we would make a difference, she seemed very irrational to me.

She may not post again, but I doubt very seriously that anyone passionate enough to make even one post, wont at least read some of what we respond to.

I hope she comes back, but if she doesn't there are also plenty of believers who will read who will never post. I go to newspaper sites all the time without posting a response to an opinion.

I see it as an opportunity to not only invite her back, but also so that any other theist reading this can know the following.

WE WONT EAT YOUR BABIES

WE DONT HAVE COOTIES

WE DON'T WANT TO LIVE UNDER STALIN

WE ALL HAVE FAMILY AND FRIENDS who do have some range of belief.

So regardless, some other theist will read this. And it wouldn't surprise me even if she did read this without posting again.

It's never a total loss even if they don't stay.

 

 

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Brian37 wrote:WE WONT EAT

Brian37 wrote:

WE WONT EAT YOUR BABIES

 

Speak for yourself. Can someone pass me the salt? 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Does this mean you missed me?!?

Don't worry...our disagreement doesn't bother me....There was I time when I didn't believe it either. And it makes sense for you to question it. I still have questions...My God just always has an adequate answer....

 

So anyway....

While it would be great to speak to each of you one on one...I don’t have the time. So I’ll address some of the stronger arguments...

Many have posted about the idea of mocking God and related it to mockery of fairytales and fake characters such as the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause. I would have to negate this notion because the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause are found to be mythical based on the absence of evidence of their supposed purposes. There’s no lump of coal for the naughty and no presents for the nice. Nor has an easter egg appeared by some unidentifiable source.   What we DO NOT have in Jesus Christ is any absence of the things He has promised. We’ve discussed this before in  earlier posts....but again...we can’t rationally rule out Christianity based on a lack of evidence that Christ NEVER said you would have. Some of you have expressed frustration with God because He has not revealed Himself in the way that you see fit.  I think we can all agree that the nature of truth is that it is true regardless of how you feel about it....wishing it were different...expressing frustration with the system doesn’t falsify it.
 But IF YOU SEEK GOD IN THE WAY THAT HE HAS OUTLINED...you will find Him.
And that’s my testimony to you. I heard the Gospel...believed it and set about living it out.  The end result is a loving relationship with God....LIKE HE PROMISED....it’s not some random idea of what I think it should be...it is simply what it is...TRUTH. And even with all that...

Some of you are upset that I asserted that my proof is in my heart...BUT THIS IS WHAT HE HAS PROMISED HE WOULD DO.

“I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith...”  Ephesians 3:16-17

“I’ll give you a new heart, put a new spirit in you. I’ll remove the stone heart from your body and replace it with a heart that’s God-willed, not self-willed.”  Ezekiel 36:26
You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. Jer 29:13

And it is not the same as "I just feel it in my heart" I hate to use this analogy but if someone's high on morphine...they are feeling something real. An outside source is affecting them. No one else can feel it...no one else can see it but something is really happening. And other people....if they take the same drug...will feel the same thing. Physiologically...yes, a process is taking place...but that process didn’t start by itself...nor is that process isolated, in that human emotions have consequences based on our choices.



CJ asserted: “I just had an echocardiogram and there is nothing in your heart except muscle, blood, veins, arteries, all that physical stuff.  No emotions or feelings that I could see.”

Agreed...we cannot see emotion.  And yet they are the driving force for the choices of Humanity. I said earlier in post 11: to dismiss humanity as simply atoms and cells doesn't adequately (or rationally) justify human life....Science is the observation of life...not the purpose of life.


To answer posts 46,41,39.... In regards to the definition of circle....I’m pretty sure a circle is round...so is a sphere admittedly. But I did not see the word flat anywhere in the verse....nor would I rationally conclude that if  someone referred to something as circular that they meant a disk. And is it possible to hold something above a globe?

 


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We can 'see' emotion

We can 'see' emotion scientifically, both by studying brain activity with fMRI and other brain scanners as we talk with them about various things. We know which parts of the brain are most involved with it. We have studied the lives and thoughts and reactions of a few people who have actually had damage to that area of the brain, which further supports just how vital emotional aspects of our thought are to a fully functional and satisfying life.

These studies and observations have shown us that most of what is happening in our brain is not accessible to our conscious thoughts, even with deep introspection.

Psychology charts our emotional life by studying our behaviour in all kinds of situations, both naturally arising and contrived for research. We now now far more more about our emotional side than the writers of the Bible. We understand how it can lead people to believe all kinds of things, that exist only in their imagination, yet feel to them as deeply 'real'.

=====

We never say that humans are 'simply atoms and cells'. We are immensely complicated structures of such, that is what makes the difference.

=====

There is no 'above' a globe in space. Above would require there be an 'up' and 'down', which would have to defined with respect to some obvious direction, normally a direction in which things tend to fall, or a base of some kind.

'Circle' does not describe a globe or a sphere. At most it describes the outline of a globe seen from a distance. They had a more accurate word for a spherical object. It was not used. 'Round' applies to both circle and sphere. 'Circle' does not.

The idea of a being enthroned or viewing us from 'above' the Earth clearly envisages him being able to survey all the surface of his domain. There are other parts in the Bible where someone is taken up to a high place to be shown the whole earth. In the accounts of God/Jesus returning, he is imagined to appear above us. There is no place from which you can see the whole surface of the Earth, or be seen simultaneously by everyone. There is no position which is 'above' everyone on Earth.

All of these passages make vastly more sense in the context of a writers who believed the Earth was a flat, circular, disk.

======

Your attempts to ignore the plain meaning of the text, that it was recording what people of that time and place imagined and believed to be true, not the actual communications from a 'God', is just sad to me, in that you are desperately trying to shore up your fantasies and preconceptions than honestly seek the truth.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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BELOVED wrote: Science is

BELOVED wrote:
Science is the observation of life...not the purpose of life.

It's not a flavour of ice cream, either. Duhhh...

 

Obviously, you can't prove to us that there is a supernatural deity.

No sane person should consider what you 'feel' in your heart, as evidence of a deity. That would be absurd.

 

You've failed to meet your burden of proof.

 

No one should believe you.

Period.

 



 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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BELOVED,Science is the

BELOVED,

Science is the honest search for the best account of reality by studying all aspects of it, by many people, to see what best accounts for what we experience, by our senses and in our thoughts.

All else is speculation, guesswork.

Of course life has, or seeks a purpose. Its basic purpose is to have offspring, to perpetuate itself. This can be verified by observation.

Life forms which did not have an inherent drive or desire to survive and do what was necessary to produce offspring would not persist and evolve.

We can derive further 'purposes', such as to have a fulfilling, satisfying life, to leave some positive legacy to future generations, our descendents, so that we might be remembered, hopefully with fondness. A 'purpose' is normally relative to the entity possessing it.

There is no 'purpose' of reality in the abstract. If there was a 'higher' being, he would have his own purpose, which would be almost certainly be unfathomable to us.

It would be the psychology of a slave to invest all your feeling of 'purpose' in the purposes of the master. It is the intent of a tyrant, a dictator, that the purpose of his subjects be only to serve him.

So you see, "Life, the Universe, and Everything" does not require a divine being to be understood at a deep level. Such a being, if he existed, would only confuse the issues of Truth and Morality, once you have progressed to a modern understanding of our own nature and origins, and of the wider reality.

So does this help you grasp why your 'message' is not embraced by us? Why we see it as a backward step in knowledge and understanding? Many here, though not myself, have been where you are, and eventually worked past it to a deeper and broader understanding.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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BELOVED wrote:Don't

BELOVED wrote:

Don't worry...our disagreement doesn't bother me....There was I time when I didn't believe it either. And it makes sense for you to question it. I still have questions...My God just always has an adequate answer....

 

So anyway....

While it would be great to speak to each of you one on one...I don’t have the time. So I’ll address some of the stronger arguments...

Many have posted about the idea of mocking God and related it to mockery of fairytales and fake characters such as the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause. I would have to negate this notion because the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause are found to be mythical based on the absence of evidence of their supposed purposes. There’s no lump of coal for the naughty and no presents for the nice. Nor has an easter egg appeared by some unidentifiable source.   What we DO NOT have in Jesus Christ is any absence of the things He has promised. We’ve discussed this before in  earlier posts....but again...we can’t rationally rule out Christianity based on a lack of evidence that Christ NEVER said you would have. Some of you have expressed frustration with God because He has not revealed Himself in the way that you see fit.  I think we can all agree that the nature of truth is that it is true regardless of how you feel about it....wishing it were different...expressing frustration with the system doesn’t falsify it.
 But IF YOU SEEK GOD IN THE WAY THAT HE HAS OUTLINED...you will find Him.
And that’s my testimony to you. I heard the Gospel...believed it and set about living it out.  The end result is a loving relationship with God....LIKE HE PROMISED....it’s not some random idea of what I think it should be...it is simply what it is...TRUTH. And even with all that...

Some of you are upset that I asserted that my proof is in my heart...BUT THIS IS WHAT HE HAS PROMISED HE WOULD DO.

“I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith...”  Ephesians 3:16-17

“I’ll give you a new heart, put a new spirit in you. I’ll remove the stone heart from your body and replace it with a heart that’s God-willed, not self-willed.”  Ezekiel 36:26
You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. Jer 29:13

And it is not the same as "I just feel it in my heart" I hate to use this analogy but if someone's high on morphine...they are feeling something real. An outside source is affecting them. No one else can feel it...no one else can see it but something is really happening. And other people....if they take the same drug...will feel the same thing. Physiologically...yes, a process is taking place...but that process didn’t start by itself...nor is that process isolated, in that human emotions have consequences based on our choices.

 


CJ asserted: “I just had an echocardiogram and there is nothing in your heart except muscle, blood, veins, arteries, all that physical stuff.  No emotions or feelings that I could see.”

Agreed...we cannot see emotion.  And yet they are the driving force for the choices of Humanity. I said earlier in post 11: to dismiss humanity as simply atoms and cells doesn't adequately (or rationally) justify human life....Science is the observation of life...not the purpose of life.


To answer posts 46,41,39.... In regards to the definition of circle....I’m pretty sure a circle is round...so is a sphere admittedly. But I did not see the word flat anywhere in the verse....nor would I rationally conclude that if  someone referred to something as circular that they meant a disk. And is it possible to hold something above a globe?

 

Do you know what self serving circular reasoning is? "Jesus said because it says so in the bible, so therefore it is true"

Would you buy a Muslim's argument if they said, "Mohamed said because the Koran says so, so therefore it is true"

And of course your magic baby and zombie god stories in the bible can be and should be rightfully put in the same category as Micky Mouse and Super man.

It takes two sets of DNA to manifest into a zygote and then onto a baby. So where did that second set of DNA come from if not from Joseph or God? WAIT WAIT......I KNOW "POOF"

And lets see, a guy gets nailed to a cross, actually in reality back then the Romans used a "T" not a "t" and would have bound them with string along with nails. Nails by themselves wouldn't hold up a body. But that's another subject.

So let me get this right? Jesus gets speared in the side. His blood completely drains out of his body, besides what settled to the lowest point of gravity. His brain dies, his organs all die, and every cell in his body dies. Then his body suffers rigor mortis. But he magically survives?

OH WAIT.......I forgot "POOF" "GOD DID IT"

And this coming from a book that "poof" creates adult plants without the aid of photosynthesis. It treats the sun and moon as separate sources of light, when modern science knows that the sunlight bounces off the moon. It magically pops out adults from dirt.

And all you have is "Poof"

So what, all deities claimed in human history are claimed to have special or super powers beyond nature. I don't see how that would be any different than the Harry Potter flying around a broom.

"God did it" is to me the same as

"Allah did it"

"Yahweh did it"

"Vishnu did it"

"Harry Potter did it"

All you have is a book of claims written over a 1,000 year period with books left out, written by people who had absolutely no clue of the nature of scientific reality.

If you want to base your position merely on tradition and "poof" and "God did it", you can. But I don't buy things simply because they feel good or simply because I want the to be true.

EVEN BEFORE you get to that convoluted book of fairy tales, you are still starting with the naked assertion that there is a magical invisible super brain in the sky with no material, no location, that is everywhere and nowhere at the same time.

I don't care what god you are claiming. Thoughts require a material process thus making non-material beings with no physical brain, with magic super powers, an absurd claim. Call this god Thor/Allah/Jesus/Isis, I don't care.

But you are kidding yourself if you think "the bible says" will work here. Your pet god claim is not special to us just because you quote the bible.

I do have fun shredding that book, but it hardly impresses me when you quote it. Other people quote their holy books too and site their books too as evidence for their gods.

SO WHAT?

There is no such thing as godsperm getting virgins pregnant and human flesh does not survive rigor mortis. This is merely you falling for a placebo fictional super hero because the idea of being saved appeals to you. Disembodied brains are works of fiction, including yours.

 

 

 

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Beyond Saving wrote:Brian37

Beyond Saving wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

WE WONT EAT YOUR BABIES

 

Speak for yourself. Can someone pass me the salt? 

I think you would barbecue me and eat me before you'd eat a baby. We get along swimmingly on every issue.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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BELOVED wrote:To answer

BELOVED wrote:

To answer posts 46,41,39.... In regards to the definition of circle....I’m pretty sure a circle is round...so is a sphere admittedly. But I did not see the word flat anywhere in the verse....nor would I rationally conclude that if  someone referred to something as circular that they meant a disk. And is it possible to hold something above a globe?

It's funny that you tell people to seek the truth but you're in denial about such a simple fact of geometry as a circle existing on a flat plane.

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


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Welcome to the forum.BELOVED

Welcome to the forum.

BELOVED wrote:
I would have to negate this notion because the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause are found to be mythical based on the absence of evidence of their supposed purposes. There’s no lump of coal for the naughty and no presents for the nice. Nor has an easter egg appeared by some unidentifiable source.

That is precisely the reason. There is no evidence for those mythical beings, just as there is no evidence for the Christian God. Everything you are going to say, we have seen before. Present what you think is evidence, and the discussion can continue.  

Quote:
Some of you have expressed frustration with God because He has not revealed Himself in the way that you see fit.

If he exists, he has not revealed himself in any objectively verifiable manner whatsoever. Why would we find it necessary that he reveals himself in a specific way that we choose? Evidence is evidence. 

Quote:
Some of you are upset that I asserted that my proof is in my heart...BUT THIS IS WHAT HE HAS PROMISED HE WOULD DO.

Then his promise is an incoherent non sequitur. Even metaphorically, it just implies that being strongly emotionally attached to the claim qualifies as "proof."

Quote:
And it is not the same as "I just feel it in my heart" I hate to use this analogy but if someone's high on morphine...they are feeling something real. An outside source is affecting them. No one else can feel it...no one else can see it but something is really happening. And other people....if they take the same drug...will feel the same thing. Physiologically...yes, a process is taking place...but that process didn’t start by itself...nor is that process isolated, in that human emotions have consequences based on our choices.

We understand what you mean; we simply don't agree. This becomes an argument from analogy, which is not good evidence and is now just a repetition of your assertions. It also actually weakens your point, since you're demonstrating that the feelings experienced by religious people can have simpler, more probable explanations.    

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Gauche wrote:BELOVED

Gauche wrote:

BELOVED wrote:

To answer posts 46,41,39.... In regards to the definition of circle....I’m pretty sure a circle is round...so is a sphere admittedly. But I did not see the word flat anywhere in the verse....nor would I rationally conclude that if  someone referred to something as circular that they meant a disk. And is it possible to hold something above a globe?

It's funny that you tell people to seek the truth but you're in denial about such a simple fact of geometry as a circle existing on a flat plane.

Right, they retrofit the words in the bible to suit their needs, failing to understand that the readers and even writers were scientifically ignorant.

The quotes in the bible only IMPLY, but when you take into account their scientific ignorance when they wrote it, it is obvious that the earth EVEN IF ROUND, they considered FLAT with a dome being the sky."Firmament".

They literally thought the earth was like a flat CD that sat on pillars with a dome covering it. Because that is the way the bible reads. This is merely another back peddle away from the fact that the writers where ignorant of reality.

There is absolutely nothing scientific about the bible. It is nothing more than a book of myth falsely believed to be fact by far too many people.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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what jesus said we would have

 ok, like probably several on this site, I was brought up in a christian family (baptist).  I accepted jesus into my heart at 13.  I wanted with all my heart for the promise of power, his voice, that connection with him, and didn't get it.  I wanted it with all my heart!  I have never wanted anything more.  Ray Comfort would say I just didn't want it bad enough.  Wrong!  You can't say I did something wrong or was deceiving myself some way.  I thought I was somehow not worthy and that something was wrong with me.  After a while I began to figure out that it was the religion that was the problem.  The whole thing is a horrid lie.  It made me believe I was so worthless and bad that I couldn't relate properly to others, especially girls. (how was I supposed to interact with someone who tempts me into wanting the sin of sex)  I missed my whole teen and college years of learning about sex, causing me so much pain I finally almost took my life at 40.  Over a stupid book of lies.

So I cannot accept the lie that jesus can be found if we only seek him the way he wants.  He's going to have to do better than that.  Rather than cloaking himself in lies, double-talk and self defeating circular logic like god answers prayer, but only if it's in accordance with his will, you don't ask for anything selfish, and basically if he's in the mood.  Yep, that pretty much gives him enough excuses why NO prayer is answered, but it is a glaring proof that he promises us nothing and gives us the same.

So your assertion of "just do it his way"  DOESN'T WORK!


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nude0007 wrote: ok, like

nude0007 wrote:

 ok, like probably several on this site, I was brought up in a christian family (baptist).  I accepted jesus into my heart at 13.  I wanted with all my heart for the promise of power, his voice, that connection with him, and didn't get it.  I wanted it with all my heart!  I have never wanted anything more.  Ray Comfort would say I just didn't want it bad enough.  Wrong!  You can't say I did something wrong or was deceiving myself some way.  I thought I was somehow not worthy and that something was wrong with me.  After a while I began to figure out that it was the religion that was the problem.  The whole thing is a horrid lie.  It made me believe I was so worthless and bad that I couldn't relate properly to others, especially girls. (how was I supposed to interact with someone who tempts me into wanting the sin of sex)  I missed my whole teen and college years of learning about sex, causing me so much pain I finally almost took my life at 40.  Over a stupid book of lies.

So I cannot accept the lie that jesus can be found if we only seek him the way he wants.  He's going to have to do better than that.  Rather than cloaking himself in lies, double-talk and self defeating circular logic like god answers prayer, but only if it's in accordance with his will, you don't ask for anything selfish, and basically if he's in the mood.  Yep, that pretty much gives him enough excuses why NO prayer is answered, but it is a glaring proof that he promises us nothing and gives us the same.

So your assertion of "just do it his way"  DOESN'T WORK!

You know what usually follows responses like yours?

"You're just angry at God" or "You must have had a horrible childhood"

You and I would not, or at least should not base our rejection of this claimed deity sole based on the good or bad in life. Bottom line the core reason to reject any claim on any issue is lack of evidence.

This only addresses the moral inconsistency when giving this claimed being the attribute of all seeing and all loving. It is a reason, but it is not the core reason.

The tsunami did not happen because of demons or the devil, or the fall of man. It happened because of a natural earthquake, nothing more.

BUT,

If one is to assume this claimed deity, for arguments sake only, that would make this deity a huge asshole for not stopping it.

That would be like a security guard in full body armor in a tank with a portal for a machine gun, guarding a bank and still allowing it to be robbed by a guy merely  with a pistol.

If parents allowed their children to suffer the same way god allows humans to suffer, what would child protective services do to that parent? Parents have an excuse because they are not all powerful. What's god's excuse?

"I can do what I want"

"You wouldn't understand"

Sorry, doesn't cut it. I am not going to follow anyone blindly just because they say so.

These are merely the excuses given by people that don't want to accept that our species is finite driven by the unfortunate part of evolution that tends to lead our species to gap answers, rather than testing the claims we make.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Imagine if police didn't

Imagine if police didn't have to answer to the public and at minimum could not be subject to criticism.

"Officer Bob, why did you shoot the guy?"

Officer Bob, "Because I felt like it"

Or "I didn't force him to step in front of my gun"

It is funny that in our modern western pluralistic society we do not want ONE PERSON in control of everything, but when it comes to religion far to many credulous people are willing to pawn reality off as being under control of one being.

 God is a dictator. He took the office without anyone's permission or consent. He wasn't voted into office.  He cannot be impeached and he has no term limits.

The bible is anti democratic and it's head character is a dictator.

 

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Feelings that exist

BELOVED wrote:

 

And it is not the same as "I just feel it in my heart" I hate to use this analogy but if someone's high on morphine...they are feeling something real. An outside source is affecting them. No one else can feel it...no one else can see it but something is really happening. And other people....if they take the same drug...will feel the same thing. Physiologically...yes, a process is taking place...but that process didn’t start by itself...nor is that process isolated, in that human emotions have consequences based on our choices.


 

in the precincts of the human brain are not an expression of external truth. 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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BELOVED wrote:Don't

BELOVED wrote:
Don't worry...our disagreement doesn't bother me....There was I time when I didn't believe it either. And it makes sense for you to question it. I still have questions...My God just always has an adequate answer....

 

Maybe your god does, but you don't.

 

BELOVED wrote:
would have to negate this notion because the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause are found to be mythical based on the absence of evidence of their supposed purposes. There’s no lump of coal for the naughty and no presents for the nice. Nor has an easter egg appeared by some unidentifiable source. 

 


Please explain how you could mock something you don't know for sure isn't real?




BELOVED wrote:
To answer posts 46,41,39.... In regards to the definition of circle....I’m pretty sure a circle is round...so is a sphere admittedly. But I did not see the word flat anywhere in the verse....nor would I rationally conclude that if  someone referred to something as circular that they meant a disk. And is it possible to hold something above a globe?

 

You do not get to redefine words as simple as "circle".

 

The fact that you're even trying should tell you something.

 

 

 

 


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BELOVED wrote:You

BELOVED wrote:

You misunderstand me. Firstly...I do not seek truth...because I have found it. I am now spending my life living in that truth.  I am not unclear in my belief. But you have claimed that the truth is not true....without proof. My picture with it's exhortation to "seek truth"...is for you. You've already said that you "doubt" my claim that God exists, doubt is fine...but if you seek truth...and are honest with yourself...you will admit that you do not know FOR SURE that God doesn't exist. I'm just saying...keep the door open, my friend.

So didn't you say something about proof? Would you mind producing it for us, or are you just going to claim that we need to seek it and all that jazzy theist talk?

Not all atheist claim absolute certainty as you have no problem doing. In my case, since no one atheist speaks for the rest of the community, I lack a belief in any religious type god or gods. Do a little homework, maybe have a conversation with an atheist, then come back and make these claims. 

By the way, what is your "truth" you are so confident in expressing?

"Take all the heads of the people
and hang them up before the Lord
against the sun.” -- Numbers 25:4


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BELOVED wrote:You

BELOVED wrote:

You misunderstand me. Firstly...I do not seek truth...because I have found it. I am now spending my life living in that truth.  I am not unclear in my belief. But you have claimed that the truth is not true....without proof. My picture with it's exhortation to "seek truth"...is for you. You've already said that you "doubt" my claim that God exists, doubt is fine...but if you seek truth...and are honest with yourself...you will admit that you do not know FOR SURE that God doesn't exist. I'm just saying...keep the door open, my friend.

 

What about the truth that we must daily leave an offering of gems or burned meats to appease the sky dragon who would otherwise eat the sun? I mean what evidence do you have to disprove that such a being and entity exists? See also, Russels Teapot.


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nor can we disprove zeus

We also can not disprove Zeus, Apollo, Fairies, or dragons and unicorns, but the lack of evidence or need for them in science shows there non existant!

 


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 hey everyone.  I've had

 hey everyone. 

 

I've had a huge problem lately with BELOVED taking big nasty shits on my lawn.  

 

Does anyone know how to get this person to stop?


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stuntgibbon wrote: hey

stuntgibbon wrote:

 hey everyone. 

 

I've had a huge problem lately with BELOVED taking big nasty shits on my lawn.  

 

Does anyone know how to get this person to stop?

LMAO, too funny.  Trying putting some science textbooks around your fence, I hear it's like kriptonite for theists.   

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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 They're really terrible.

 They're really terrible.  I know it's BELOVED though, I can feel it inside my heart. 


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prayer

 I am amazed at when they say you can pray about it and it happens. Well i do yoga and meditation,( i am an atheist by t he way) and my foot was aching last night so i meditated and did this thing where you visualize earths healing powers or whatever coming into the spot where it is sore and removing it. Well it worked great i felt great thismorning..there was no I repeat no praying to an imaginary being..so what happened..? did god answer my request because he overheard it even though I reject him?  I suggest not..my thought it is just a brains way of dealing with things and it worked. , but obviously if i were a christian i would be saying wow I prayed and look what god did , answered my prayer..see how that gets going?

 

it is laughable to think someone is listening to a prayer and respondingSmiling just my two cents


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Aches and pains are the most

Aches and pains are the most obvious problems which can be feasibly addressed by the brain itself, since 'pain' only has reality as sensory experiences within the brain.

As to healing whatever physical damage or strain which triggered the sensation of pain or discomfort, that cannot be readily observed in many cases if it doesn't show on the surface of the body. But for minor physical stress, that also can be plausibly helped by the brain encouraging or accelerating the healing processes which will usually fix such problems eventually anyway. Some such aches can be assisted by a training which can 'force' more general relaxation of muscles in the affected area.

Its the old story, lets see serious, visible, physical lesions, cuts, etc close up or grow back while we watch...

 

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

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BELOVED wrote:My proof is in

BELOVED wrote:

My proof is in my heart...which is completely rational...if it's true. A truth which I testify is something I live out and enjoy...but was also written about 2000 years ago by goat herders on the middle east..."The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God" Romans:8:16

I am not presenting some random God who we can pin any attribute or myth to. I am presenting the ONE God who has revealed Himself through scripture and nature.

You were right tho...God IS beyond anything we know...."For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."

I am not saying that we can understand God and how He works. We were not created for that. What we CAN do is live the way he intended us to live...in a loving relationship with Him and each other.

 

You read that book and decided it is the written word of a god? Funny, I read it and decided it was the written word of some angry socialistic poor man wannabe philosophers who were pissed off that money doesn't grow on tree's and women have a menstral cycle. 

 

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


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jesstacia wrote:The absence

jesstacia wrote:

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

 

This statement is just downright false.  Look up "Bayes' Theorem"  from probability theory.  Here's the basic idea.

 

Let's say we can randomly generate a box containing ten beads.  Either the box contains no red beads (X of the time), or the box contains one red bead (1-X of the time).  X is less than one but greater than zero (this means we're admitting both situations are possible)

I'm going to generate 100 of these boxes and then look at one bead from each box.  I will retain only the boxes in which the observed bead is not red.

  Ave # of retained boxes with no red beads = 100*X*1.

  Ave # of retained boxes with a red bead = 100*(1-X)*(9/10) = 90 - 90X.

  Total Ave # of retained boxes = sum of the previous lines = 100X + 90 - 90X = 10X + 90 < 100 (because X < 1)

If I then take the retained boxes and calculate the fraction that have no red beads, I find

  Ave portion with no red beads = 100x / (10X + 90) = 100X / # less than 100 > X

Ergo, once we have made the observation that one of the beads in the box is not red (and have thus restricted ourselves to working only with boxes in which such an observation is made), we know that the likelihood of the box containing no red beads is greater than before.  Thus, the lack of evidence for a red bead is evidence for a lack of red beads.

Now replace "boxes" with "universes" and replace "red bead" with "God."  Same basic story.  The odds of us being in a universe without a God increase when we look for evidence of God in our universe but don't find any.

Questions for Theists:
http://silverskeptic.blogspot.com/2011/03/consistent-standards.html

I'm a bit of a lurker. Every now and then I will come out of my cave with a flurry of activity. Then the Ph.D. program calls and I must fall back to the shadows.


BELOVED
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I LOVE JESUS!

There seems to be this unnecessary divide between science and theology. It’s as if it has been decided somewhere that a person must choose one or the other.  I will again assert that science is merely the observation of life. It does not create anything. It doesn’t make choices or somehow “workout” the betterment of mankind.
Though the Bible does not go into every detail about every occurrence, it does answer. Creation, for instance, says that God created the earth. It is the truth at its simplest. Deeper investigation into what has been created aids in wiser use, damage control and more awesome enjoyment of our home, the earth.  The Bible, in it’s simplistic claims, allows wonderful freedom for us to discover and interact with the planet. They also testify of the Lord’s might, seeing as something as mind blowing as parting the sea is easy for God, yet unfathomable to us. In many Bible stories, the people that God is dealing with do not believe the God can do what he says he will do. These people had  a very particular stubbornness in that they HAD seen God do miraculous things and they still didn’t believe Him.

Some of you will hold to scientific laws but will fight against the laws of God. No man will fight the concept of breathing, it is simply the truth that I need breath to live.  My heart must pump blood, my brain needs oxygen. Is it slavery to submit to the laws of life? If any man would choose not to breath...or not to have blood pumping through his veins, he would be begging for the consequences of that choice, calling it originality, boasting of non-conformity when really it’s just foolish.  Considering this is our nature, to be submissive to the laws that govern us, we must therefore admit our lack of universal supremacy. That truth, coupled with the fact that we are life forms with the capacity for free will and emotion, not only leaves ample room for the idea of God but actually points directly to HIS truth.

It seem that those who hold to the observable processes of this life as our only means of understanding have denied the nature of their humanity, denying the deep things of the heart. Ever met someone who was utterly devastated. Broken hearted to the point of  zombie murmurings and uncontrollable tears. Isn’t it interesting that things like that can effect you physically. They supersede natural processes. Some of you would claim that our most important function is to reproduce. It is interesting that healthy pregnancies are aided by a woman’s healthy emotional state. Babies develop better when loved and caressed. Humans are more alert, more productive, more ALIVE when they operate in love, joy, diligence and all the other things that make up life well lived. The Bible does not address the molecular structure of life, but it certainly addresses matters of the heart, the true core of life.
 


redneF
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BELOVED wrote: Babies

BELOVED wrote:
Babies develop better when loved and caressed.  

Then you're mentally disturbed to tell them that they have the freedom to do as they please, but will be thrown into an eternal lake of fire if they do as they please.

 

Maybe you'll grow a brain someday, and learn to spot complete mindfucks...

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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BELOVED wrote:There seems to

BELOVED wrote:
There seems to be this unnecessary divide between science and theology.

It is an impassable divide. Science is using reason and evidence to discover what is true. Theology is assuming what is true, and then, playing with word games to attempt to justify it. 

Quote:
I will again assert that science is merely the observation of life.

No, it's not. Use a dictionary.

Quote:
Is it slavery to submit to the laws of life?

Argument from analogy is pointless. You have no evidence that God exists. 

Quote:
That truth, coupled with the fact that we are life forms with the capacity for free will and emotion, not only leaves ample room for the idea of God but actually points directly to HIS truth.

Uh, no. No, sorry, it doesn't.

Quote:
denying the deep things of the heart.

Non sequitur.

Quote:
Ever met someone who was utterly devastated. Broken hearted to the point of  zombie murmurings and uncontrollable tears. Isn’t it interesting that things like that can effect you physically. They supersede natural processes.

Uh, okay, how does crying and being sad supersede natural processes?

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


Zaq
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 Whenever I'm physically

 Whenever I'm physically affected by people suffering from incredible sadness, I can't help but notice that there are an awful lot of sound waves and photons coming my way.  You know, perfectly natural processes that are perfectly capable of affecting me physically without the need for any divine entities getting involved.

Questions for Theists:
http://silverskeptic.blogspot.com/2011/03/consistent-standards.html

I'm a bit of a lurker. Every now and then I will come out of my cave with a flurry of activity. Then the Ph.D. program calls and I must fall back to the shadows.


BobSpence
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Science is the honest and

Science is the honest and serious pursuit of knowledge by the best means available, whereas Theology is the intellectually dishonest search for justification of pre-conceived ideas.

One is about Knowledge, the other is about cultivating ignorance and wishful thinking, the denial of truth.

Our ability to respond to another's despair is well understood by science, it requires no spiritual, supernatural realm, only an understanding of how the wonderful hierarchy of ever more subtle and complex capabilities of ever more levels of complexity of structure, from particles, atoms, molecules, living cells, up to and possibly beyond living, conscious being.

We are gaining growing insights into the way our minds actually 'work', much of it showing what a small proportion of our brain activity is accessible to our conscious introspection, and how consciousness is a product of the brain, how it can be seriously affected by various disruptions of the physical processes going on in our brain. IOW we understand ourselves far more fully and deeply than what people believed about our nature when the scriptures were written.

And just like knowledge of the theory of music and the science of sound and its perception does not detract from our ability to respond to great music, this knowledge of our nature and the mechanisms underlying it do not detract from our ability to appreciate the 'higher' things in our life. To me, it only enhances my experience.

I would never claim our most 'important' function is to reproduce. We have no inherent 'function' or purpose, other than what we conceive of for ourselves. Some people seem only to be able to imagine everything beyond the level of 'mere' matter, such as mind and thought and emotions, as implying a separate magic realm, and requiring a 'higher power'. Reproduction is obviously essential to our existence, as products of an ongoing evolutionary process, so it is important at that level. But our continuance does not matter to the Universe, to anything but ourselves. In fact, to most of the other life-forms on the planet, our demise would be a blessing. So it is not important at all, in that wider sense.

But after a lifetime of genuine pursuit of the Truth, all I can say to those people, is "YOU CAN"T HANDLE THE TRUTH!". Maybe because of lack of appropriate education or experience. Maybe they just lack real compassion, and have to simulate it with the help of a fantasy narrative, which requires they swallow the Kool-aid...

I doubt you are capable of conceding that a satisfying, rewarding life can be had in the total absence of any concern for, or belief in, a God, without a belief in an afterlife, and with the REAL comfort of having made some contribution to the well-being of REAL people, at least some of whom will remember me with some fondness. But I, and many others here, will testify it is true, every bit as deeply and strongly as you will testify how your belief works for you. And as strongly as every other faith works for those who buy into it. At least ours can be shown to be far more compatible with reality than any faith. No faith required, just an understanding based on the most workable and useful set of assumptions about reality, theories, that we have been able to demonstrate so far.

Every day I see and hear more evidence that, if there is some conscious 'higher power' behind all the crap that goes on, the disease and injury, which modern medicine, informed by Science, has managed to alleviate to some extent, he deserves contempt rather than worship. I would far rather just go to sleep forever than suffer an eternity in his hateful presence.

I understand, to some extent, how you see your faith, and I will not deny its meaning to YOU.

I just would like to be able to convey to you that I am more than happy that I have chosen a different path, and your continuing imprecations are just reinforcing my confidence in my choice. My wonder and awe at what our continuing search for knowledge reveals to us about the nature of 'Life, the Universe, and Everything',  is infinitely grander than what is conveyed by the collection of primitive superstitions, taboos, and delusions found in the Bible, or any other holy book. Your misunderstanding of how we understand the world, conveyed in your posts, just makes me a little sad.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology