PROOF! A QUESTION FOR THE ATHIEST...

BELOVED
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PROOF! A QUESTION FOR THE ATHIEST...

It is interesting that this site would use the term RATIONAL to describe it's cause. It seems quite irrational to claim with such certainty that there is no God. 

You have NO proof that God doesn't exist and I therefore question your integrity. It would seem that, at best, you would be forced to admit your lack of surety and label yourself as a seeker of truth, as opposed to a possessor of it.

Please explain how you could mock something you don't know for sure isn't real?


jcgadfly
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You want me to do your

You want me to do your homework? I don't have to prove your God doesn't exist to doubt your claim he does.

For someone who claims to seek truth you like to run and hide from it. Why is that?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Atheistextremist
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Hi Beloved

 

We are agnostic atheists - same as most all atheists. We believe there's no adequate proof of a supernatural god. We only believe things on the basis of testable explanation. 

We reject arguments from complexity and arguments from ignorance. We will not be bullied into accepting unsupported claims by threats of fire in a place no one has ever been. 

Conversely, you are content to believe in unprovable supernatural entities existing outside space time on the basis of the naked assertions of the bible. That's so rational. 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Thanks for responding...

You misunderstand me. Firstly...I do not seek truth...because I have found it. I am now spending my life living in that truth.  I am not unclear in my belief. But you have claimed that the truth is not true....without proof. My picture with it's exhortation to "seek truth"...is for you. You've already said that you "doubt" my claim that God exists, doubt is fine...but if you seek truth...and are honest with yourself...you will admit that you do not know FOR SURE that God doesn't exist. I'm just saying...keep the door open, my friend.


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Chuckle

 

 

You are the queen of assertions. What is this truth you say you've already found? And what method did you use to appraise yourself of its indubitable veracity?

No one here will ever insist they know with certainty, absolute truth. You seem to think this is a weakness which is instructive in terms of your thought process. 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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You do not have proof that

You do not have proof that God exists. You do not even have decent evidence.

God would be a being so totally beyond anything we know actually does exist, by observation, that it would require extraordinary evidence to demonstrate that he does exist, not just the 2000 year old writings of ignorant goat-herds on the Middle East, or the imagination of a modern-day wishful thinker.

Within the context of modern scientific understanding, not only is a God unnecessary to explain why things are the way they are, it would only introduce a major complication in trying to figure where such an entity fits into reality.

Then there is the question of how such a being came to exist. Much harder to figure than how the natural Universe came to be.

So its your obligation to provide such explanations before we need to change what is a relatively comprehensible picture of reality that we now have once we throw out the God crap.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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Hiiiiii!

Thank you sooo much for discussing this with me....I seriously enjoy this kind of conversation....YES!

anyway....I'd like to start with a quote:

"It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure." -- Albert Einstein

Since the kingdom of heaven is within you, immeasurable things like the heart, love, conscience, guilt, spirit, are what matters in your relationship to God.

There's a story in the bible about a man who went to hell and asked if he could go back to earth to tell his brother's about it's reality so they would believe...Jesus said that even if a dead man went to them, they would not believe.

THe idea of offering physical proof for the existence of God has been acknowledged in scripture and shot down based on the reality of the human condition. No amount of PHYSICAL proof will persuade you of God's reality.

 

And as for my own belief...I have a loving relationship with God. The reality of my relationship is backed up by scripture because it speaks of things I experience...and it is also confirmed in other believers who have similar experiences. But these things only confirm what I am already experiencing.  I cannot prove to you with anything physical how my God has comforted me, or taught me or guided me. BUt that's just it....a true Christian is the only arguement you need. Doesn't it make sense that the Lord proves what he desires from Man by using Men as examples?!


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Hi again Beloved

 

Sure, a symphony makes no musical sense to the human mind when described or represented on paper as a wave.

But sound is a wave, nevertheless, and the human ear and brain are capable of collecting sound waves and using this sense data to generate a biochemical response in the limbic system. 

If, as you insist, the kingdom of heaven exists only in the human mind then shall we agree heaven is a product of the human imagination?

I can't believe you apply your holistic system of spiritual belief to the real world. Do you believe the moon exists? Why do you believe this? 

And if some one wanted to prove evolution, what proof would you ask for, what would you need to see of this process in order to be convinced it actually happens?

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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My proof is in my

My proof is in my heart...which is completely rational...if it's true. A truth which I testify is something I live out and enjoy...but was also written about 2000 years ago by goat herders on the middle east..."The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God" Romans:8:16

I am not presenting some random God who we can pin any attribute or myth to. I am presenting the ONE God who has revealed Himself through scripture and nature.

You were right tho...God IS beyond anything we know...."For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."

I am not saying that we can understand God and how He works. We were not created for that. What we CAN do is live the way he intended us to live...in a loving relationship with Him and each other.

 


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BELOVED wrote:THe idea of

BELOVED wrote:

THe idea of offering physical proof for the existence of God has been acknowledged in scripture and shot down based on the reality of the human condition. No amount of PHYSICAL proof will persuade you of God's reality.


Sure, there is something physical that would convince me.  One - just one - regrown amputated limb.  No?

I gave up the need for imaginary friends long years ago. 

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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Does your brain have

BELOVED wrote:

My proof is in my heart...which is completely rational...if it's true. A truth which I testify is something I live out and enjoy...but was also written about 2000 years ago by goat herders on the middle east..."The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God" Romans:8:16

I am not presenting some random God who we can pin any attribute or myth to. I am presenting the ONE God who has revealed Himself through scripture and nature.

You were right tho...God IS beyond anything we know...."For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."

I am not saying that we can understand God and how He works. We were not created for that. What we CAN do is live the way he intended us to live...in a loving relationship with Him and each other.

 

 

any original thoughts, Beloved? You sound remarkably like an evangelical parrot. As the son of a fundamentalist preacher and a missionary, I am familiar with the mark of the biblical beast. It's sad to hear the thoughts of what sounds to me like a young mind stamped out by christian evangelism's doctrinal machine. Is this really all you are? Be assured, no one here will accept the sort of circular biblical arguments you are spouting - that there is a god because it says so in the bible.

Further, if we cannot understand god and how he works, then our conversation should have ended some time ago, back when I said we only accept arguments based on testable explanations. Yet here we are with you telling me you know the mind and works of your inexplicable god. That's a curious thing. 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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For my Extremesist friend...

Firstly: I said the KINGDOM of heaven is within...not the physical place called Heaven. God's reign over men can be accepted or rejected in the heart of man...each of those choices have their consequence but they don't not change truth.

and the issue I was addressing with the quote is the concept that "The whole is greater than the sum of the parts"...to dismiss humanity as simply atoms and cells doesn't adequately (or rationally) justify human life.

 

and I wasn't sure what you were getting at with the question about the moon's existence...but yes I do believe it exists. Smiling


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I asked why

 

BELOVED wrote:

and I wasn't sure what you were getting at with the question about the moon's existence...but yes I do believe it exists. Smiling

 

why do you believe it exists...

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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We all laugh and cry the same in every language #orignal

On the moon....I believe it exists because I see it everyday (when the weather permits) and I enjoy its light.

I guess I'll take it as a compliment that it sounds like something you've heard before...seems like God is on your tail!

I cannot offer you a proof that does not exist. The way it is set up is for a man to obtain faith by HEARING...and that comes from the testimony of believers. I put forth the concept that the Lord will show you what he desires with men by showing you what he does in others.

but let's RATIONALLY think about what I'm saying: I am presenting the Gospel as a Believer. I am saying that I PERSONally have experienced the truths and principles set forth in the scripture. I am not saying that YOU have...or ever will. BUt that you CAN.  And that you CANNOT prove that I haven't. ANd there is the issue I began this post with...YOU DO NOT....DO NOT...have any proof whatsoever that the relationship I enjoy with my GOd is not real or a reality.

I am simply asking you to at least admit the possibility of this Truth because of your lack of proof to the contrary.

I guess at the end of the day....you should probably squash the "what if's" and see who God says he is...then argue.


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We all laugh and cry the same in every language #orignal

On the moon....I believe it exists because I see it everyday (when the weather permits) and I enjoy its light.

I guess I'll take it as a compliment that it sounds like something you've heard before...seems like God is on your tail!

I cannot offer you a proof that does not exist. The way it is set up is for a man to obtain faith by HEARING...and that comes from the testimony of believers. I put forth the concept that the Lord will show you what he desires with men by showing you what he does in others.

but let's RATIONALLY think about what I'm saying: I am presenting the Gospel as a Believer. I am saying that I PERSONally have experienced the truths and principles set forth in the scripture. I am not saying that YOU have...or ever will. BUt that you CAN.  And that you CANNOT prove that I haven't. ANd there is the issue I began this post with...YOU DO NOT....DO NOT...have any proof whatsoever that the relationship I enjoy with my GOd is not real or a reality.

I am simply asking you to at least admit the possibility of this Truth because of your lack of proof to the contrary.

I guess at the end of the day....you should probably squash the "what if's" and see who God says he is...then argue.


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Ok, Beloved.

 

BELOVED wrote:

On the moon....I believe it exists because I see it everyday (when the weather permits)...

 

What if I told you there was an electric blue moon with red spots located in a galaxy far, far away but I had no material proof whatever of my claim, would you believe that? Or would you want to see it first?

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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The core of my approach to

The core of my approach to life is to Seek Truth, and part of that is seeking what is the surest path to Truth, and it is not through the feelings of the 'heart', but through an honest study of all we can observe and test and study about reality itself, as it presents itself to our senses and our instruments.

With studies of humanity and its ways, we observe people's behavior and responses and testimony, and now the activity in their brains, both in their daily life and when presented with various contrived situations. This has allowed enormous progress in understanding ourselves, and one of the things which is known is how we can become obsessed with particular ideas, and sets of ideas, such as religious dogmas and doctrine, and become so utterly convinced of their 'truth' based on purely subjective issues.

Something claimed to be truth needs to be backed up by as many independent sources as possible, and be tested against alternative explanations for what it claims.

Science is not restricted to the 'physical'. If something is manifest in any way in the world, in some minimally consistent manner, it can be studied.

The feeling of speaking with God can be generated in a person on cue by various chemical and/or electromagnetic stimuli applied to the appropriate part of the brain.

Whenever claims have been made that some event or aspect of the world has been the work of God, such as the many 'miracles' that are reported, and it when it has been possible to access the evidence of the 'miracle', quite plausible non-miraculous explanations are normally shown to be applicable.

There have been many, many claims of prophecy based on a faith, and scripture, that have also been seen to fail and fail again.

So, do you have anything new??

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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Truth cannot be determined

Truth cannot be determined purely on the basis of a personal experience, no matter how 'real' and convincing it is to the individual.

It has to be backed up by some independently observable manifestation, that can be tested by more than one person, to begin to be taken seriously.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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 André Gide said believe

 André Gide said believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.


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What we are certain about is

What we are certain about is that there is no evidence pointing unambiguously to the existence of a God, and that the scientific evidence is that a God is not in any sense necessary to explain the existence of the universe (ask Stephen Hawking).

So putting the burden of proof on anyone trying to come with a workable theory of God is entirely rational.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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BELOVED wrote: I cannot

BELOVED wrote:
I cannot offer you a proof that does not exist.

Then what's the point in telling us about your superstitious intuitions, if you're just going to reason in circles?

Apparently, you haven't done much homework before posting here.

By all indications thus far, you appear to be waaaaaaaay underqualified in apologetics and 'arguments' for 'God', than every apostate that I'm aware of on this forum.

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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BELOVED wrote:It is

BELOVED wrote:

It is interesting that this site would use the term RATIONAL to describe it's cause. It seems quite irrational to claim with such certainty that there is no God. 

You have NO proof that God doesn't exist and I therefore question your integrity. It would seem that, at best, you would be forced to admit your lack of surety and label yourself as a seeker of truth, as opposed to a possessor of it.

Please explain how you could mock something you don't know for sure isn't real?

Why don't you start by defining the concept of God in detail, if you provide a non contradicting definition of a deity, I will at least give you the logical possibility of it existing.  Until you do that, you have nothing but pretty words and wishful thinking.  

 

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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If you think that something

If you think that something must exist if a person can become totally convinced of its 'truth' merely by reading about it from others who have already become similarly convinced, you are the victim of what Dawkins describes as a powerful 'meme'. This is a set of ideas which resonates strongly with some patterns that our minds are susceptible to. The simplest examples are 'catchy' tunes which we can't get out of our head. Another is the 'alien abduction' idea.

By that sort of argument, you must accept the reality of alien kidnapping people, since quite a number of people report this, and insist their experience was 'real'.

You would also logically be compelled to accept the 'truth' of every other religion, who will attest to the same absolute truth of their doctrine based on the same kind of argument.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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BELOVED wrote:You

BELOVED wrote:

You misunderstand me. Firstly...I do not seek truth...because I have found it. I am now spending my life living in that truth.  I am not unclear in my belief. But you have claimed that the truth is not true....without proof. My picture with it's exhortation to "seek truth"...is for you. You've already said that you "doubt" my claim that God exists, doubt is fine...but if you seek truth...and are honest with yourself...you will admit that you do not know FOR SURE that God doesn't exist. I'm just saying...keep the door open, my friend.

I have never said that I know God doesn't exist for sure. I don't claim to know anything absolutely. You claim to be living in a truth that you can't or won't divulge to others.

Why are you admonishing me to seek truth when it seems you've stopped?

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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BELOVED wrote:Please explain

BELOVED wrote:

Please explain how you could mock something you don't know for sure isn't real?

Because the list is endless.

Any other questions ?

 


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Antipatris wrote:BELOVED

Antipatris wrote:

BELOVED wrote:

Please explain how you could mock something you don't know for sure isn't real?

Because the list is endless.

Any other questions ?

 

Sounds like our friend is pulling a bit of a 'Pascal's Wager' on us...

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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Thanks so much for your

Thanks so much for your opinions...great food for thought!!!

And so it begins....

We’ll start with the concept of Truth. It is rational to know that there is ONE truth....two conflicting ideas cannot both be true. Agreed? And if one SEEKS truth...that implies that truth can be found. THERE IS A TRUTH! Regardless of what you believe or how you live your life....there is a true nature of this life.

The necessity of God is found in His TRUTH. Either Christ is of the UTMOST of importance or the most useless. No science has EVER disproved the existence of God. IF it is true...that men’s soul’s are at stake, that hell is a real place and men are needlessly going because Christ is their way out and they refuse to accept him...Then Hooray for the evangelist. What I HAVE NOT asserted is that all men believe this....or WILL believe it....we can all agree that every man has a CHOICE to believe what he will...regardless of its truth.

Now when I said that I cannot offer a proof that does not exist....I meant that if you tell me you need a regrown amputated leg to believe...I do not have one. Nor did I, or God offer you one....so it’s absence DOES NOT disprove God. Christian Disclaimer: Any other “REQUIREMENTS” you would choose to demand of God probably wont happen. But here’s the Christian Promise: If you seek God in the manner that HE has set forth...you will find him.

You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. Jer 29:13

The LORD confides in those who fear him; he makes his covenant known to them. Psalm 25:14

Call to me and I will answer you and tell you great and unsearchable things you do not know.' Jer 33:3

And now for the idea set forth that you should not believe any man that says he’s seen a 6 foot bunny or an electric blue moon...we also agree on that. Any idea set forth should be tested....but tested based on its nature.  Those who trust God experience answered prayer, divine comfort and insight. If a man who does not trust God prays...he will not see the same result...but then he didn’t really test the idea set forth...because Hebrews 11:16 says that “anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists.”  And even then...his unanswered prayer still proves God and the bible because it is written in James 1 :7-8, But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt...That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord;

 When I say that there is a God who loves you and cares for you as a father does his children and that I experience that love every day...and so do millions of other people. And that there is a document written thousands of years ago that testifies of this same relationship....if tested based on belief, you will have the same result....


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I am simply going to tell 

I am simply going to tell  you this, the world is not black and white, there is a WHOLE lot of grey, it is not jesus was the uttermost important man or was useless. There can be that he was a teacher, one of so many, since there are so many holy men, let say the prophet mohammad, Buddah, etc, etc, etc. So jesus can be inline with one of many teacher that has helped to give out a message to humanity of the writers of the New testament and their more pacifist and less inclusive views, a creation of the writers of the bible (which then has become a literal figure instead of a literary figure) in which to help out give a message different than those of mainstream judiasm, like so many other religions out there. Your world is either christianity is true or it is false and there is nothing else. You make it seem very black and white without any real understanding that truth tends to be more in the grey area far more than in the extreme black and white when it comes to historical and biblical figures.

I can also attest that there are millions of buddhist who view their religious views are the correct one, as well as many muslims, jews, hindus, etc, etc, etc. Your version of truth does not mean it's true to them, truth has to be in your view universal, however the answer to god is not universal, it's not even realistic really once you start to break down all the attributes of god.


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My Latin Friend...

I agree that there are many religions who claim truth...But Sir...there is ONE truth...people vary in  opinion about what that is...but that doesn’t mean there is no truth.  Again, two conflicting ideas CANNOT both be true. Since Christ said that He was the way, the truth and the life....either He was a liar or telling the truth. Black and white.


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BELOVED wrote:Now when I

BELOVED wrote:

Now when I said that I cannot offer a proof that does not exist....I meant that if you tell me you need a regrown amputated leg to believe...I do not have one. Nor did I, or God offer you one....so it’s absence DOES NOT disprove God. Christian Disclaimer: Any other “REQUIREMENTS” you would choose to demand of God probably wont happen. But here’s the Christian Promise: If you seek God in the manner that HE has set forth...you will find him.

 

I said a regrown amputated leg would make me pause and say - hm, beloved might be right after all.  I didn't say lack of same would disprove god/s/dess.  At the most, it might be an indication of whether s/he/it/they give a rat's patootie about us.  And it seems the answer to that question is obviously - no.

And you seem to be operating on a misconception.  I - and many others on this forum - have searched for god/s/dess - and didn't find him/her/it/them.  We were true believers searching for the "truth" and it didn't exist in religion.  No where.  Not in the small, still recesses of my mind.  Not in church, not in the bible - nada, zip, zilch.  The only thing in my head is me. 

You sound like one of the new age woo-woo christians.  "Close your eyes and feel your oneness with with god and the universe."  Blah, blah, blah.....  

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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BELOVED wrote:We’ll

BELOVED wrote:

We’ll start with the concept of Truth. It is rational to know that there is ONE truth....two conflicting ideas cannot both be true. Agreed? 

I don't agree with that. A personal truth is what is true for an individual. Moral truths can be conflicting.

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


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BELOVED wrote:I agree that

BELOVED wrote:

I agree that there are many religions who claim truth...But Sir...there is ONE truth...people vary in  opinion about what that is...but that doesn’t mean there is no truth.  Again, two conflicting ideas CANNOT both be true. Since Christ said that He was the way, the truth and the life....either He was a liar or telling the truth. Black and white.

If he existed, it is NOT a matter of either "He was a liar or telling the truth". That is simply and utterly WRONG.

He could also have been MISTAKEN!!

IOW, be deeply and sincerely believed what he was saying was true, as you do, but he could still have been wrong. That is NOT lying!

You have definitely missed the truth in that statement, so you must concede your reasoning is flawed, so you are probably wrong in many other things. To not admit this would reveal you to be dishonest or deluded, or both.

And of course, at most, only ONE religion can be fully TRUE, but it is also entirely possible that NONE of them are true, that the truth is elsewhere, that they are all MISTAKEN.

Our human minds are far from perfect, and are definitely finite and limited, so to imagine and insist that we can actually KNOW any truth with 100% certainty, particularly about something so far beyond our comprehension as a God would be, if he existed, is utterly foolish.

You have just PROVED you don't understand some basic concepts, so your conclusions are worthless.

Keep seeking, my friend, you have a long way to go.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

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BELOVED wrote:Since Christ

BELOVED wrote:

Since Christ said that He was the way, the truth and the life....either He was a liar or telling the truth. Black and white.

False dichotomy.  Using that 50/50. Christ could have been delusional, could be a made up figure, might not have ever said that due to mistranslations of the scholars or he was speaking in symbolism. There are other possibilities.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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CJ...you're funny!

I seriously laughed at the term woo-woo christian. Smiling

I am sorry if I misunderstood your request for a leg...I thought it was in response to the story about a man coming back from the dead...and needing similar physical proofs.

I think in your recent post you wondered about God's care for you. and while we both agree it is not evidenced by a regrown leg....God does demonstrate his love for you...he has his people going door to door, being mocked and ridiculed, going to far off countries to share his truth... and while you deny his existence, here he has me reasoning with you...for your sake.  Not to mention Sending His Son to DIE for you. He has faithfully allowed the sun to rise, your stomach to rise in breathing, your heart to know love and laughter. These are things He has given you....if you need the scripture to back up these truth...please ask. I'm just saying....don't look away from God and claim he abandoned you...look at what HE HAS done....we all were born corrupted...but Christ is the anectdote...an expensive one.


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BELOVED wrote:Please explain

BELOVED wrote:

Please explain how you could mock something you don't know for sure isn't real?

And as others have asked, how do you know for sure that it is ? And if it is real, how do you know for sure that your version of it is real ? Leaving aside the questions of different religions, what about the thousands of christian sects, like the Catholics, the Pentecostals and the Baptists, each of whom are convinced their version of the Bible is correct and the other is wrong, all using the same bible, all praying to the same Jesus, yet each one convinced that the other is going to hell, can you explain that ?

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Hey Bob...

I'm not gonna say I've been waiting for you....but maybe... Smiling

I am a little confused tho...if Christ was mistaken...then his statement is untrue...is that right?  Perhaps the statement, "either His claim was true or false," would suffice to get my point across?

and you are sooooo right! Our human minds are far from perfect...WE are far from perfect....and God acknowledges that. But we are perfectly what we are...we are not expected to be something we are not.  What I am saying is there is a perfect God who wants a relationship with his imperfect creations. He accepts us as we are...Romans 5:8, But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.


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BELOVED wrote: What I am

BELOVED wrote:
What I am saying is there is a perfect God who wants a relationship with his imperfect creations.

How do you know this?

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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Hey Sportster

Nice to meet you...thanks for joining the convo...

Were you aware that the scriptures testified that the earth was round way before Galileo figured it out...Check out Isaiah 40:22. He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers.

Just thought we'd start with some scriptural truth before I explain...You questioned how I know my faith is real...I assert again that Christianity, when tested in the manner God and scripture set forth...will result in full assurance in the form of:

peace: And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. (Phil. 4:7)

Joy: Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, (1 peter 1:Cool

 

Now these things are real experiences...set forth in scripture and enjoyed by millions. No man, or science or fact will ever disprove that these things are true. Seeing that they are spiritual benefits from a spiritual being...The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Romans 8:16...

 

and as for other sects and denominations....I do not hold to any denomination but having known people from different christian backrounds...those who are Christ's are His...no one is being fooled.


 


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For RedNef....

I know this because I enjoy this relationship every single day. In the beginning...in the Garden of Eden...God would come and walk with Adam in the cool of the day. Just come and hang out with Adam...talk to Him....see what's up with Him. Just Hang.

So right now...you have a woman who has this Same relationship with God...as well as countless scriptures that show you EXACTLY how God feels about you. so that you may act accordingly...

 

"...you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather...together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing." Matthew 23:37

"Give all your worries and cares to God, for he cares about you." 1 Peter 5:7


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The word used in that

The word used in that passage does actually refer to a circle, not another word that would more clearly refer to a sphere, so that passage is referring to a flat circular disk.

That it then claims God is enthroned above it confirms that, because there is no place to sit above all places on a sphere with people all over its surface. So that passage PROVES the writers believed in a flat earth. So they were mistaken.

And you are right, those are all real experiences, ie, they really feel as 'true' as they are described, including those of other faiths. What they cannot all be is genuine experiences of a true God. But they can all be illusions.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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BELOVED wrote:Nice to meet

BELOVED wrote:

Nice to meet you...thanks for joining the convo...

Were you aware that the scriptures testified that the earth was round way before Galileo figured it out...Check out Isaiah 40:22. He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers.

Just thought we'd start with some scriptural truth before I explain...You questioned how I know my faith is real...I assert again that Christianity, when tested in the manner God and scripture set forth...will result in full assurance in the form of:

peace: And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. (Phil. 4:7)

Joy: Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, (1 peter 1:Cool

 

Now these things are real experiences...set forth in scripture and enjoyed by millions. No man, or science or fact will ever disprove that these things are true. Seeing that they are spiritual benefits from a spiritual being...The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Romans 8:16...

 

and as for other sects and denominations....I do not hold to any denomination but having known people from different christian backrounds...those who are Christ's are His...no one is being fooled.

 

 

Hi Beloved,

Did you know that a circle is not a sphere? The writer of Isaiah didn't (though he did have and use the word for ball earlier).

Now that you know why what you claimed as truth isn't, lets go on to the rest.

Are you seriously trying to say that one can't experience love, joy and peace without religion?

Bob, you beat me to it - Grrr. Smiling

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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BELOVED wrote:the circle of

BELOVED wrote:
the circle of the earth,

Er...a circle is not a sphere.

 

edit : looks like Bob beat me to it. And JC. This is getting crowded. I'm outta here.


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BELOVED wrote:Just thought

BELOVED wrote:

Just thought we'd start with some scriptural truth before I explain...You questioned how I know my faith is real...I assert again that Christianity, when tested in the manner God and scripture set forth...will result in full assurance in the form of:

peace: And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. (Phil. 4:7)

Joy: Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, (1 peter 1:Cool

 

and as for other sects and denominations....I do not hold to any denomination but having known people from different christian backrounds...those who are Christ's are His...no one is being fooled.


 

 

But couldn't peace and joy be by products of feelings and nothing more ? For instance, riding a motorcycle gives me those feelings, sitting very quietly in my backyard  and just looking at the evening twilight gives me feelings of peace and bliss that I can not explain. Are you certain that we are not talking about the same thing here ? If not, why ?

There is a book, called Why God Won't go Away, that mentions certain activities (i.e. worshipping in church, meditation, etc.) as having a stimulating effect upon the brain and giving the person a feeling of wonder and connectedness.

Could you concede that reading the Bible or praying might be the activity that fills you with joy because of such stimulation of the mind ?

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Someone's gotta be wrong...

I confess I do not speak Hebrew...but based on my study....the word either means simply a circle or vault (which basically means arch)...both terms seem to favor a circular earth...


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Someone's gotta be wrong...

I confess I do not speak Hebrew...but based on my study....the word either means simply a circle or vault (which basically means arch)...both terms seem to favor a circular earth...


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My dear, Beloved.

 

BELOVED wrote:

No science has EVER disproved the existence of God. IF it is true...that men’s soul’s are at stake, that hell is a real place and men are needlessly going because Christ is their way out and they refuse to accept him...Then Hooray for the evangelist. What I HAVE NOT asserted is that all men believe this....or WILL believe it....we can all agree that every man has a CHOICE to believe what he will...regardless of its truth.
 

 

No one has ever disproven the universe sits in a bed of pavlova either, but that does not say anything about what is actually true.

Nor can your point - that god has never been disproven - be extrapolated to say anything about the existence of souls, the existence of hell, the cosmic sacrifice of jesus - or the existence of god.  

Again, you are making a fallacious appeal to ignorance. You are appealing to ignorance in order to sidestep your own burden of proof. This a fundamentally silly argument to which no capable theologist would stoop. 

And you are repeatedly making truth claims that are completely unsupported by any facts. 

You have not simply asserted all men will believe or not, you've asserted god is real, that you know him, that you know the truth and more. Supporting this you have offered us no evidence whatever.

Now, you obviously believe in things in the absence of coherent proof but don't expect us to be as vapid as you seem to be. And don't think you are serving god's cause here either. You are simply making him look silly.  

Your sickly satisfaction at bearing witness to us shows you to be a typically self absorbed and self serving christian who is devoid of genuine empathy and is so morally inconsistent she is unable to judge the

true nature of the contrived deity she's chosen to worship. Your god concept is nothing more than a violent, patriarchal sociopath with an incoherent self sacrifice myth bolted onto him. 

 

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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BELOVED wrote:I confess I do

BELOVED wrote:

I confess I do not speak Hebrew...but based on my study....the word either means simply a circle or vault (which basically means arch)...both terms seem to favor a circular earth...

Circular and flat, yes. Spherical, no.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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BELOVED wrote:I agree that

BELOVED wrote:

I agree that there are many religions who claim truth...But Sir...there is ONE truth...people vary in  opinion about what that is...but that doesn’t mean there is no truth.  Again, two conflicting ideas CANNOT both be true. Since Christ said that He was the way, the truth and the life....either He was a liar or telling the truth. Black and white.

Yet again, there is no way to verify that jesus actually said that, other than hearsay at this moment really, jesus never wrote a thing. Hence a WHOLE bunch of grey area to contend with, lie by the writers, actually said it, or a character meant to bring people to this new version of judaism. see a grey area you don't even think about, your world is only either it is real or it is completely false and useless. Two conflicting ideas can be truth depending on the person you are talking to about it, and since yours lacks any proper evidence to back up as ACTUAL truth, I cannot understand how you can claim having truth when it is not even close to being verifiable universally.


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Hey, Beloved.

Firstly, yes there is a pretty good logical proof that there is no god. BEHOLD! An article I wrote for my blog that I think is an adequate demolition of your belief system. But, there are plenty of other ways to show your god to be false. But this one makes me a bit curious...

BELOVED wrote:

Please explain how you could mock something you don't know for sure isn't real?

Have you ever had a laugh at UFO enthusiasts who claim the governments of the world are covering up the existence of extraterrestrials? Have you ever laughed at the idea of shape-shifting lizard people ruling the world? What about Bigfoot/Sasquatch, or its Tibetan cousin, the Yeti? The Loch Ness Monster? I remember as a kid we mocked kids who still believed in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy, but you can't disprove the existence of either.

 

So, do you mock those things you can't disprove yet seem ridiculous to believe in?

 


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BELOVED wrote:I know this

BELOVED wrote:

I know this because I enjoy this relationship every single day. In the beginning...in the Garden of Eden...God would come and walk with Adam in the cool of the day. Just come and hang out with Adam...talk to Him....see what's up with Him. Just Hang.

So, you don't know.

You just imagine it might be true. And you also fear it might be true.

Those are based on emotions.

That's not being objective and rational.

 

So, you're just regurgitating the sermons and fallacies you've heard about atheists. That's why your conclusions don't add up to your premises.

Good luck in the world, with that kind of a thought process. You're going to need it...lol

 

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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redneF wrote:BELOVED wrote:I

redneF wrote:

BELOVED wrote:

I know this because I enjoy this relationship every single day. In the beginning...in the Garden of Eden...God would come and walk with Adam in the cool of the day. Just come and hang out with Adam...talk to Him....see what's up with Him. Just Hang.

So, you don't know.

You just imagine it might be true. And you also fear it might be true.

Those are based on emotions.

That's not being objective and rational.

 

So, you're just regurgitating the sermons and fallacies you've heard about atheists. That's why your conclusions don't add up to your premises.

Good luck in the world, with that kind of a thought process. You're going to need it...lol

 

 

 

Why do christians insist the master of the universe wants to hang out with them in 'the cool of the day'. That's flat out weird. Whoever made this up needs a clip over the ear. 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck