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RevGodapriori
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Hello

Hello, I’m a open theist Christian and ordained minister. I own a paper tiger church and two non profit Christian humanitarian missions. I am an old fart having made my way three quarters through this life more or less if my genes are as good as my grandparents all who have lived over a century. I am American citizen, but learned French before English, due to my grandparents and parent being rabid, fairly anti USA French nationals (my other parent is a USA citizen now). I was born an atheist as I assume we all are, then, to make a very long, (decades) story short I dabbled in most major religions, the periods lasting up to a year and a half. I apostated from Christianity and atheistic beliefs several times, but have been a Christian for over ten years now. Ummm’ what else? I suppose we will get to that eh? Oh I have an MA in Comparative religion and my BA/BS major was microbiology with emphasis in archeology, I was a fine art Major (BA).

 The reason I joined this forum was meet more people of the atheist persuasion. I hope that the members here can learn from me. I've tried many forums and have quit many where atheists and religious folk alike were too vicious and mean. I do not like that sort of thing and dislike becoming angry. Of course my emotions do get the better of me at times, thanks to my pride. Pride is negative emotion and one I hope to eliminate being one of the last obstacles I have to overcome as per biblical teachings. Being prideless as possible is to ‘be one with God’. (that is a Dharmaic’ enhancement/influence of my Christianity speaking!).

 

 

 

 


 


RevGodapriori
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After rereading my post I

 

 

 

 

After rereading my post I found there were too many sentences that began with "I am". However I could find  edit tabs. Is editing allowed? Oops, I see it now, there is a time limit on edits eh? Wait! I see one now, hmmm...

 

 


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Welcome aboard

Welcome to the forum. Various opinions of different persuasions and intelligent discussions are always welcome.

I grew up in a very strict religious household and am an Atheist now.

Let me also point out the Kill 'em with kindness forum on here, where discussions are slightly more watered down. But for the most part, you'll find that my fellow Atheists and I are pretty civil on here.

The trolls and troublemakers on here are the only ones that irritate me. Have fun.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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I love your Godel quote

 

Reverend God, but you have to concede the existence of a coherent thought process based on experience does not prove the existence of deities. That would be an assertion both primitive and muddled. 

Welcome, BTW. We can get heated but not are particularly vicious unless anyone starts threatening us with hell.   

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Welcome, RevG,(Since you

Welcome, RevG,

(Since you mentioned in your post, we have a forum called Kill 'Em With Kindness, which has additional rules enforced to keep things from getting 'mean'. You may want to test the waters here a bit, and if you find it too heated, you can post in the KEWK forum whenever you like.)

Re: Open theism. If I recall correctly, open theism seemed to be pretty nebulous and wishy washy, but I admit my recollection of what I heard about it is pretty vague. Could you bring us up to speed? Isn't there something about how god is not omnipotent or omniscient or something, and that's supposed to solve the problem of evil or something?

I guess my main question is: Why be an open theist instead of an atheist? What's your best reason for believing in a god?

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"Apostated from atheist

"Apostated from atheist beliefs"?? Makes no sense, on any level.

And some varieties of 'pride' are quite fine, and definitely positive. Pride in genuine achievement, accomplishment, for example.

What is bad is when it leads to arrogance. And being confident that you somehow could actually apprehend an entity that corresponded in any way to the concept of God requires an extreme arrogance. So you do have a problem there, it seems. A contradiction in fact.

Quote:

I hope that the members here can learn from me.

also comes across with a degree of arrogance/pride, as well. We can learn something from most people, even if it is only when they are an example of how people can make serious mistakes.

I hope you are able and prepared to acknowledge when there may be something you can learn from us. From your post, there do seem to be a number of things you could stand being corrected on...

The message I am attempting to convey in my response here is to be prepared for some serious discussion, and I hope your perceptions of 'viscious and mean' are not tuned at too low a threshhold.

BTW, looking at your picture, I may well be even older than you...

 

Anyway, g'day from Australia, and welcome!

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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You sound like someone who

You sound like someone who thinks or thought they were an atheist and are aware of our knowledge so you throw it out there that "I was one too"

To save you some time, It wouldn't matter to me if Dawkins or Hitchens proclaimed themselves to be Christians tomorrow, they would still have as much evidence for virgin births and zombie gods as you will have to defend if you are currently proclaiming yourself to be Christian right now.

Not that Christianity, or any religion can prove the existence of a magical invisible super brain with no brain with magical super powers.

"I was an atheist"

Is the same to me as

"I was a Muslim"

"I was a Christian"

"I was a Hindu"

I don't care.

SHOW ME, don't pontificate about ancient books or their popularity or your personal ability to masturbate over them because their gang club personally appeals to you.

SHOW ME how a thought can occur without a material process. Get your study replicated, tested and  falsified and independently peer reviewed and I will hand you the Nobel Prize myself.

I'll meet you for your findings, lets say, a week from never?

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Welcome! I feel fair warning

Welcome!
I feel fair warning is in order: The majority of theists who've come here over the years are arrogant, ignorant jerks. As a result, responses to theist posts are sometimes more vicious than warranted. I myself have made the mistake on occasion. So try not to take it personally if it happens. Some of us have been oppressed by religion our whole lives.
Hopefully you stick around. It's nice seeing theists who aren't spouting fire and brimstone with every third word.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Welcome! What really gets my

Welcome! What really gets my proverbial goat is when theists think they are better then everybody else, when clearly, we are better then everybody else Smiling

I only get mean when others get mean, and even then I try to show as much restraint as possible.  I hope you stick around, no offense but it is difficult to find a theist that can carry on a decent conversation, that's why I engage every one of them I can.  

I look forward to your posts.

 

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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RevGodapriori wrote:After

RevGodapriori wrote:

After rereading my post I found there were too many sentences that began with "I am". However I could find  edit tabs. Is editing allowed? Oops, I see it now, there is a time limit on edits eh? Wait! I see one now, hmmm...

 

No one else answered this, so I will.  When you create a topic, you can not edit the original post.  If it is really bad, you can ask one of the mods to edit it for you.  They will often fix links and videos in the topic post without anyone asking, too.  Generally, they are nice guys.  After that first one, you can edit any subsequent posts that you have created.  From what the forum mods have said,  it is a "feature". 

Post early and often, have fun, hang for awhile.  I don't claim to be a biblical scholar nor am I interested in philosophy.  And I probably put my two cents in where it isn't wanted on occasion.  But, hey, I'm an old woman and I get to act like one.

Welcome.  And where are you from?  I'm in the Pacific Northwest - Portland, OR to be exact.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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harleysportster

harleysportster wrote:
Welcome to the forum. Various opinions of different persuasions and intelligent discussions are always welcome. I grew up in a very strict religious household and am an Atheist now.Let me also point out the Kill 'em with kindness forum on here, where discussions are slightly more watered down. But for the most part, you'll find that my fellow Atheists and I are pretty civil on here.The trolls and troublemakers on here are the only ones that irritate me. Have fun.

Thanks for the welcome. Hey I couldn’t happen but notice your sc name. Ha ha. I owned a 57' sporster for six years! It had the original linkert DC cast alum. Carb, which was the model that S&S used as their original fuel carb, they just scaled it up x3 times! I attached many carbs in its lifetime before putting it back to nearly stock with no accelerator pump. The linkert was also used in a solid brass design for pans and such) . That beautiful black and brushed aluminum 57 had an Fairbanks Morris magneto. It was equipped with the original ‘dry clutch’ and other old school goodies, such as the awful 6 volt electrical system that I upgraded to 12 volt. Man how I miss that bike! Then I had an stroker Shovel head lowrider for quite a few years. Now I am building another custom, it’s evo but my heart lies with the old iron.


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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

Reverend God, but you have to concede the existence of a coherent thought process based on experience does not prove the existence of deities. That would be an assertion both primitive and muddled. 

Welcome, BTW. We can get heated but not are particularly vicious unless anyone starts threatening us with hell.   

With all due respect, this being intros and all, I won't comment on your observations, ha ha. I will say that I am here more to learn and make friends than to get into knock down drag out debates of religious or spiritualism vs. Atheism etc. I have found that both sides are so entrenched in their beliefs that little productive information comes from that type of debate because it seems neither side** is truly interested in mutually beneficial 'movement' of intellectual position. Those types of my ‘belief’ is better than your ‘belief’ engagements reminds me of WW1 trench warfare. I will make a comment to say that even though I am a ‘bible’* believing Christian, I do not believe in a hell for most humans or any humans really. Lastly thanks much for your reply I look forward to discussing the particulars of the truth (or not) of 'deities'.

* Including some Gnostic as well as other texts and glyphs.

** Generally speaking. There are of course exceptions but sadly for both sides those movements are rare indeed!

 


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 Kill 'Em With Kindness,

 

 

Cj wrote:
Welcome, RevG, (Since you mentioned in your post, we have a forum calledKill 'Em With Kindness, which has additional rules enforced to keep things from getting 'mean'. You may want to test the waters here a bit, and if you find it too heated, you can post in the KEWK forum whenever you like.)

 Thanks so much for the advice. I already am delighted with the memberships candor and attitude here. Most of the time even intros are confrontational. It happens on both pro atheist sites as well as on pro Christian sites. I personally believe that the expression of ‘unsolicited’ kindness is a sign of higher intellect.

Quote:
Re: Open theism. If I recall correctly, open theism seemed to be pretty nebulous and wishy washy, but I admit my recollection of what I heard about it is pretty vague. Could you bring us up to speed? Isn't there something about how god is not omnipotent or omniscient or something, and that's supposed to solve the problem of evil or something?

I am not a true Open theist which has a definite set of rules etc. The system has been pretty much discredited by mainstream religious scholars. However, I use the term to donate that I am a very liberal Christian, ie I do not bash homosexuals or believe in a burning hell nor do I stand on a soap box ministering to the masses using a burning hell to extort membership to the Christian movement. I truly detest certain TV evangelicals as minions of Satan, especially those that ask for money for a spiritual favor, those parasites are criminals of the soul and of the Christian faith. Only priestly pedophiles are lower in my estimation. Sorry for the rant, I am so heartbroken and yes, angry at those minions.

Anyway~ I have scriptural back up for what I believe for without it I am no better than a charlatan. I think deeds speak louder and are more believable than words, so I use the humanitarian missions to do my ‘preaching’. A ‘truth or a message of love’ does not have to be screamed or threatened, it’s better proven as truth and accepted or at least considered if it’s ‘whispered‘.

Quote:
I guess my main question is: Why be an open theist instead of an atheist? What's your best reason for believing in a god?

Oh my ha ha, is that a straw man? Hee hee.. That question will open a can of debate worms and we should start a thread I suppose, but I will attempt a short answer; The reason I am a theist and not an atheist is three fold at least. First, ‘science’ convinced me several ways that what we call God exists. I think the universe needed a reason or a cause to begin to exist, and for me, personally I found that an intelligent designer was a better answer than I don’t know or one of the alternate scientific theories such as the metaverse (ie up to infinite parallel universes). Second I had a NDE, (near death experience) where I ‘met’ ‘God’. Yes I am aware of the dangers of assuming that those are due to everything but meeting God, but you had of been there ha ha! Third is life experience.

Quote:
Q: "Isn't it a miracle that the universe/life/consciousness/myself exists?"
A: "No."

Personally, I feel that why universe exists instead of nothing fairly demands a ‘cause’.

Thank you for your reply and expressing interest in my beliefs, I am also curious about your thoughts and various atheist concepts etc. I love these forums but they are kind of restrictive eh? I look forward to discussing these issues with you and the members here.


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    BobSpence1

BobSpence1 wrote:
"Apostated from atheist beliefs"?? Makes no sense, on any level. And some varieties of 'pride' are quite fine, and definitely positive. Pride in genuine achievement, accomplishment, for example. What is bad is when it leads to arrogance. And being confident that you somehow could actually apprehend an entity that corresponded in any way to the concept of God requires an extreme arrogance. So you do have a problem there, it seems. A contradiction in fact.

With all due respect, you left out part of the sentence and thus the meaning is not what I intended. I said that I apostied’ from both Christianity and atheism. If the word ‘beliefs’ is a problem, I meant paradigm. If one goes about his life as an agnostic atheist or even an atheist that defines atheism as a ‘philosophical state’ the fact remains that is the way ’he’ extrapolates reality. For example, If I were an atheist and I began believing in say, paganism, that means I am no longer an atheist, nor do I any longer share the atheistic paradigm, so I have fell away from that belief. So apostate can mean more than its usual religious usage.

Quote:
also comes across with a degree of arrogance/pride, as well. We can learn something from most people, even if it is only when they are an example of how people can make serious mistakes.I hope you are able and prepared to acknowledge when there may be something you can learn from us. I cant believe I mistyped one of the very most important messages I meant to convey!!! Man I feel bad about that! [/quote

Oops MY BAD! I meant to say I hope you can learn from me and I from you. Somehow that was cut when I was editing on my computers word processer, and while I was learning to use the system here. On most forums I can go back and edit everything including the original posts! So I really apologize for that dumb mistake, in a intro no less! Man now I know why I had to hire a proof reader when I owned a small business!

Quote:
From your post, there do seem to be a number of things you could stand being corrected on...The message I am attempting to convey in my response here is to be prepared for some serious discussion, and I hope your perceptions of 'vicious and mean' are not tuned at too low a threshhold. BTW, looking at your picture, I may well be even older than you…

My skin is not too thin but I try to avoid toxic arguments ie those with no other real purpose but to hammer each other. I was a member of a major MC club from Chicago Ill (The hells henchmen, now the Hells Angels I was the national treasurer) so I am not too lily white! I left the club when I began going to more funerals than parties.

God bless you my friend, (no offence) I am 57 years old, that pic is about one year old.

Quote:
Anyway, g'day from Australia, and welcome!

Thanks for the welcome! I hope to visit your country one day.  Again sorry for the screw up! Please feel free to ask me to expand or explain anything I say that seems confrontational ?

 

ps does anyone know how to get rid of that huge space at the top of my replies? I have tried to cut the space but it shows back up. The cut works on the bottom space. I usally cut the replies and paste them on my word processer to edit then cut and paste them back here. Any ideas?


RevGodapriori
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Oh CJ I forgot, I am from

Oh CJ I forgot, I am from East Tennessee I guess. I was born in an airplane as my mother and her family were coming from France. When we arrived we traveled all over the USA and some of the world, my father worked for an international service group, but he loved East TN as do I and I spent most of my formative years here and in Coca Beach FL where Dad worked at the Cape.

 

 


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Brian37 wrote:You sound like

Brian37 wrote:
You sound like someone who thinks or thought they were an atheist and are aware of our knowledge so you throw it out there that "I was one too" To save you some time, It wouldn't matter to me if Dawkins or Hitchens proclaimed themselves to be Christians tomorrow, they would still have as much evidence for virgin births and zombie gods as you will have to defend if you are currently proclaiming yourself to be Christian right now. Not that Christianity, or any religion can prove the existence of a magical invisible super brain with no brain with magical super powers."I was an atheist"Is the same to me as"I was a Muslim""I was a Christian""I was a Hindu"I don't care.

 

 

Quote:
SHOW ME, don't pontificate about ancient books or their popularity or your personal ability to masturbate over them because their gang club personally appeals to you.SHOW ME how a thought can occur without a material process. Get your study replicated, tested and  falsified and independently peer reviewed and I will hand you the Nobel Prize myself.I'll meet you for your findings, lets say, a week from never?

 

Thanks for the skeptical attitude concerning my creditability. Yes that is sarcasm. I can guarantee you I was practicing positive atheism for an extended period of time and was as much an atheist as anyone that claims such things. Why lie about it? I don't become upset if someone makes the same claims about christanity. With all due respect I feel its a myth that once an atheist always an atheist. Also, again with all due respect, you are not the only member here. I offered my personal information up because ahhh’ ...well, this is the introduction thread? Right? When debating someone it helps to know their background. If you don't like what I have to say allow me to give you a hint; don't read my stuff. Avert thy eyes eh? Ha ha…Lastly I enjoyed your reply. Most show me's of science or what ever you use as an authority are no more real than the space between atoms that make up this monitor. So I usually rely on 'circumstantial evidence' for evidence of 'God" along with other items. Even though the DA does not see (SHOW ME) a perp committing the crime he can still fry for the offence. Do you understand where I am coming from? I hope we will be able to discuss some of the issues you raise civilly, like adults using common curtsy and mutual respect. If we can muster those simple items I will look forward to it.


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There is no 'atheist'

There is no 'atheist' paradigm.

Atheists are notoriously varied in their ideas, apart from that single feature of a lack of belief in anything that could be called a 'God'.

You are simply and demonstrably wrong there - or are you seriously suggesting I share some identifiable set of beliefs or world-views with Stalin or Pol Pot??

Atheism is an aspect of, a consequence of, some actual world-view, such as 'free-thinking', skepticism, or maybe one of a range of philosophical or political ideologies, or at the other end of the spectrum, a simple lack of concern for ideas of ultimate origins or philosophies of any kind. It may be a starting point, for some people, but that can lead into any of a range of directions, because it doesn't come with any doctrine. So no, if you take up 'paganism', you simply adopt a belief, after a period of not having that category of belief. No matter how you express it, there is a clear difference between adopting a religion, which, to be meaningfully so described, has some specific set of doctrines, unlike atheism.

Atheism imposes far fewer constraints on what kind of world-view one can extrapolate than any religion. You are still free to adopt a moral code exactly the same as any religion, or even all the rituals, IOW, to still attend the church, because you simply like the experience. There are atheists who have done just that, because of the direct moral or aesthetic appeal of the ideas, or the rituals, independently of any Theistic 'justification' of them. Maybe an atheist can practice all the rituals of 'paganism'.

Don't extrapolate your experience to all 'non-believers', that is a fallacy.

'Practicising positive atheism?' So you went around specifically attacking religion? Or just consciously rejecting religious ideas?

I have never taken any religions seriously, just gradually came to see the emptiness of the God concept more consciously as I grew up.

I now see the 'God' meme as having no merit, logically, rationally, morally...

I don't use anything as an 'authority' as such, that is more a feature of the religious mind-set. I refer to, listen to, read, people who seem to have established a 'track-record' of coming up with interesting ideas, ways of finding patterns, pointing out patterns and resolutions of puzzles that hadn't occurred to me before. I then incorporate the most useful concepts into my own 'tool-set'. Even people I have only heard briefly have helped me form a new way of seeing, or presented an argument which has really made sense to me.

You appear to be drawn to something about religions. Is it the idea of a 'higher power'? Genuinely curios.

BTW, I am just over 65, my pic from when I was a youngster of not quite 61...

'Epistemology' is primitive and muddled - Me.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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RevGodapriori wrote: Thanks

RevGodapriori wrote:

 

Thanks for the welcome. Hey I couldn’t happen but notice your sc name. Ha ha. I owned a 57' sporster for six years! It had the original linkert DC cast alum. Carb, which was the model that S&S used as their original fuel carb, they just scaled it up x3 times! I attached many carbs in its lifetime before putting it back to nearly stock with no accelerator pump. The linkert was also used in a solid brass design for pans and such) . That beautiful black and brushed aluminum 57 had an Fairbanks Morris magneto. It was equipped with the original ‘dry clutch’ and other old school goodies, such as the awful 6 volt electrical system that I upgraded to 12 volt. Man how I miss that bike! Then I had an stroker Shovel head lowrider for quite a few years. Now I am building another custom, it’s evo but my heart lies with the old iron.

Yeah, I am sucker for the older model bikes. Particularly Shovelheads and Panheads.

When I first started riding, the old school guys I knew were all about, see no evo, speak no evo and hear no evos. Alot of them guys today are riding evos, hehe.

I would have liked to have seen that 57 Sportster. Sounds like a beauty. I would probably have liked riding it better. Laughing out loud

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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RevGodapriori wrote:I do not

RevGodapriori wrote:

I do not bash homosexuals or believe in a burning hell nor do I stand on a soap box ministering to the masses using a burning hell to extort membership to the Christian movement. I truly detest certain TV evangelicals as minions of Satan, especially those that ask for money for a spiritual favor, those parasites are criminals of the soul and of the Christian faith. Only priestly pedophiles are lower in my estimation. Sorry for the rant, I am so heartbroken and yes, angry at those minions.

On those points we agree.

When I first became an Atheist, it was primarily due to my anger with much of the behavior of religions and various things in the Bible.

While I still have many issues with the behavior of organized religions (not just Christian religions either) I realized one day, that I no longer believed in god, simply because I had never really seen any evidence of one.

Right after I left organized religion, I toyed around with Buddhism for a little while, got disenchanted with it, and moved into this type of New Age stuff.

This was in my early 20's.

I chased around so-called haunted houses and ghosts, looked for signs of extraterrestrials, read on all that astrology stuff, etc. (I am sure you get the idea).

But at the bottom of all of my searching and all of my looking, I never found any evidence for the existence of any of it. All I found were alot of people that were hoping to find  SOMETHING.

BUT, I found much joy, much wonder and many amazing things in science.

I found in science, the missing gap that religion had never given me.

That is a little of my background anyway.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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 People tend to say that

 People tend to say that they were atheist - on this forum anyway - to insist their beliefs about the supernatural which came later were not borne from credulity. It is possible though, and almost certainly the case that you are convinced by what the rest of us would find wholly unconvincing. From my perspective you're no less credulous for the fact. Being atheist doesn't mean that you don't believe stupid things, it means you don't believe one stupid thing.

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


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Rare is a find, a find of comprehension

 

Quote:
  An atheist as I assume we all are, then, to make a very long, (decades) story short I dabbled in most major religions, the periods lasting up to a year and a half. I apostated from Christianity and atheistic beliefs several times, but have been a Christian for over ten years now. Ummm’ what else? I suppose we will get to that eh? Oh I have an MA in Comparative religion and my BA/BS major was microbiology with emphasis in archeology

 

 

  Welcome! WELCOME with your background you are most welcome and rare and welcome. You can comment on other religions while still citing prohibitions like Deuteronomy 17's covenantal 'transgresses', among which, forbidded the worshiping of the Sun, the moon and the other created things.  Activity can be at a stand still, then someone new comes along. I conclude you coming is alright with me, you simply have no idea how rare a fellow you are.

 

 

 

>
 

 


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Rare is a find, a find of comprehension

 

  Hope you loom large on our horizon

 

 


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    Quote: Atheists are

 
 

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Atheists are notoriously varied in their ideas, apart from that single feature of a lack of belief in anything that could be called a 'God'.

I have been wrong before, many times! However I think this is more of an misunderstanding than a error. For example; Christians, Buddhists, Pagans, etc are also varied in their beliefs, still it would not be inaccurate to say that they embraced a Buddhist paradigm, a Christian Paradigm etc. Maybe posting the definition of ‘paradigm’ I was using will clear this up? Paradigm; 1. typical example: a typical example of something 2. model that forms basis of something: an example that serves as a pattern or model for something, especially one that forms the basis of a methodology or theory.

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You are simply and demonstrably wrong there - or are you seriously suggesting I share some identifiable set of beliefs or world-views with Stalin or Pol Pot??

Yes and no. I can not comment on your political moral ethical or other views. I assume you are a good moral ethical person just like most atheists I know. However you do have a lack of belief of God just as Pol Pot or Stalin did (allegedly). If it makes you feel better you could say that I being a Christian have some of the same beliefs that the inquisitor had! Ha ha. Just for fun I Googled ‘define atheist paradigm and got 1,210,000 hits!

Quote:
Atheism is an aspect of, a consequence of, some actual world-view, such as 'free-thinking', skepticism, or maybe one of a range of philosophical or political ideologies, or at the other end of the spectrum, a simple lack of concern for ideas of ultimate origins or philosophies of any kind. It may be a starting point, for some people, but that can lead into any of a range of directions, because it doesn't come with any doctrine. So no, if you take up 'paganism', you simply adopt a belief, after a period of not having that category of belief. No matter how you express it, there is a clear difference between adopting a religion, which, to be meaningfully so described, has some specific set of doctrines, unlike atheism.

Still I think its accurate to say an atheist has an atheistic paradigm if and I clarified it her simply means a world view or the person is an non believer. A paradigm as I am using it here is simply the way the ’user’ models his view or reality etc, not as a strict guideline with unassailable parameters. A atheistic paradigm in the way I envision it could accommodate all atheistic beliefs with no constraints. I see it as a liberating term actually.

 

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Atheism imposes far fewer constraints on what kind of world-view one can extrapolate than any religion. You are still free to adopt a moral code exactly the same as any religion, or even all the rituals, IOW, to still attend the church, because you simply like the experience.

Yes I agree. However an atheist could go to church and I would welcome all! However one couldn’t be an atheist and a traditional Christian simultaneously.

Quote:
There are atheists who have done just that, because of the direct moral or aesthetic appeal of the ideas, or the rituals, independently of any Theistic 'justification' of them. Maybe an atheist can practice all the rituals of 'paganism'.

I agree and know several people who claim they are atheist Christians.

 

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Don't extrapolate your experience to all 'non-believers', that is a fallacy.

I think you have me confused with someone else, unless you can point out where I suggested something like that.

Quote:
'Practicising positive atheism?' So you went around specifically attacking religion? Or just consciously rejecting religious ideas?

No, that is not positive atheism, or not the way understood it ! Here this the definition is fairly close to what I beleived, however just like open Christian theism is not perfectly accuate neither is positive atheism to describe how I understood it, but this is close ; Definition: Positive atheism is defined as the positive that claim no gods exist or the denial that the claim "at least one god exists" is false. This definition of positive atheism is often confused with the definition of atheism generally but that is a mistake; the definition of positive atheism is a subset of atheism generally and closely parallels related terms like strong atheism. The term positive atheism appears to have been first used in this sense by Antony Flew at least as early as 1976 and has become common in philosophical, scholarly writing on atheism and theism. Positive atheism is in fact far more common among philosophers than related terms like strong atheism, but strong atheism is more common among laymen and popular writers.

http://atheism.about.com/od/Atheist-Dictionary/g/Definition-Positive-Atheism.htm

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I have never taken any religions seriously, just gradually came to see the emptiness of the God concept more consciously as I grew up.

I now see the 'God' meme as having no merit, logically, rationally, morally...

I don't use anything as an 'authority' as such, that is more a feature of the religious mind-set. I refer to, listen to, read, people who seem to have established a 'track-record' of coming up with interesting ideas, ways of finding patterns, pointing out patterns and resolutions of puzzles that hadn't occurred to me before. I then incorporate the most useful concepts into my own 'tool-set'. Even people I have only heard briefly have helped me form a new way of seeing, or presented an argument which has really made sense to me.

Going by what you said, (above) most physiologists would say that you used yourself as the ‘authority’. That is you assess the facts and trust yourself to be the best judge of what is truth and what is not. I don’t want to generalize but can say that most secular humanists and atheists either use self or the state as the ultimate authority. Most religious/spiritual people us God. Its not too difficult to understand the why of either of those assessments is it?

Quote:
You appear to be drawn to something about religions. Is it the idea of a 'higher power'? Genuinely curios.

To be honest with you what began to tug me away from atheism was science of all things. Usually science and learning pulls someone away from spiritual beliefs because those beliefs are seen as primitive backwards etc by the scientific establishment. There is a rise of spirituality and science especially in cosmology and particle physics (quantum physics more than classical physics). It’s not that atheism wasn’t sophisticated enough, personally I could not square with the idea that the universe coming from nothing. The current theory ie the big bang is now being challenged, however before the current challenges, it fairly demanded that the universe began to exist. So if it began to exist and did not exist eternally (as Einstein thought) something had to cause the universe to begin to exist. Our physics can only take us back to nano seconds after the big bang banged so to speak before they break down into gibberish. However there are arguments such as the KCA, (kalam cosmological argument) http://www.leaderu.com/truth/3truth11.html a cosmological argument, that uses logic, science and observation for evidence to suggest that the universe must have had a ‘cause’ to begin to exist. And this cause, had to be eternal/atemproal and be capable of making a universe to begin to exist, and not simply any universe, one that can support life. I am getting a bit deep, so I will leave it there for now.

Quote:
BTW, I am just over 65, my pic from when I was a youngster of not quite 61...

I hear 65 is the new 40, personally I feel like crap physically having broken most of my bones racing my Harley* against the police one early AM when I was about 42 years of age.. ha ha…that was some time ago but man, broken bones hurt progressively. However they really saved my life, because it wasn’t much later that God told me he had been trying to reach me and finally had to do something drastic to save my real life!

*I was also an airborne ranger (101st fort Campbell KY) in training and blew out a knee on my first static jump, so yes pain is my friend~

Thanks for your reply, I hope to have the time to begin some threads to discuss these issues in more detail.

 


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Conversations with the lord...

 

RevGodapriori wrote:

 

However they really saved my life, because it wasn’t much later that God told me he had been trying to reach me and finally had to do something drastic to save my real life!

 

 

What do you mean he 'told you', RevG? How? And what did he save you from and what is your 'real life'?

Additionally, it seems to me you are at once demanding empirical evidence for first cause from science and then cheerfully taking a position which is and always must be, inexplicable.

For instance, how does creation work? Can you explain the process of god-generated abiogenesis? If not, what forms the basis for your belief system that is not a subjective and untestable explanation?

It is acceptable to say that there are some things you cannot explain - but this acceptance would involve taking a neutral position when it comes to first cause. You, however, do not do this. 

As ever, I can't help feeling the primary 'sin' is that of reasonable doubt. 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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RevGodapriori,it may not

RevGodapriori,

it may not surprise you to hear that I disagree fundamentally with pretty much all of your comments there, but it may be best at this point to take the issues into new separate threads as you suggest.

I have stuck to the non-motorized cycles, and it seems to have only been positive as to my current health and fitness status...

There is zero warrant for assuming any first cause need be anything but the most infinitesimal quantum twitch, so KCA proves nothing about anything of interest.

Quantum mechanics point away from the spiritual, except in the minds who misunderstand the 'observer effect'.

I often marvel when I hear believers attribute God as having intervened to save their life in some way after some serious accident or disease.

My reaction is first, he would have had the power to stop the bad crap happening in the first place, so that is already problematic. And if it was some kind of test, or a shock designed to encourage you into taking him seriously, why has he left me, a life-long atheist, who regularly curses and blasphemes his name, encourages others to treat the idea with similar disdain, to pursue a quite fulfilling life into a healthy 'old age', without any equivalent trauma?

Apart from an incidence of potentially life-threatening appendicitis in my early twenties, although there was little suffering involved, thanks to a decent government sponsored health system and modern surgery.

Seems to me I have adopted the better strategy. I certainly would not want to be punished with an after-life in the presence of such an inherently evil entity as the Christian/Islamic God.

Anyway, I will watch out for any threads you care to start, to get into detailed discussion of these issues.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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harleysportster wrote:Yeah,

harleysportster wrote:

Yeah, I am sucker for the older model bikes. Particularly Shovelheads and Panheads.When I first started riding, the old school guys I knew were all about, see no evo, speak no evo and hear no evos. Alot of them guys today are riding evos, hehe.I would have liked to have seen that 57 Sportster. Sounds like a beauty. I would probably have liked riding it better. :lol:

Ha ha yes, I remember the resistance to the evo as well, it's the best air cooled engine HD has ever produced. Personally I didn't care what my friends rode as long as they had the wind in their face! That old sporty was a semi rat most of the time and it was a leg breaker as well, the teeth on the (kick) starter ratchet was worn off and when you got her up on the compression stroke (oh baby), and kicked hard sometimes there was nothing there but air, and man that hurt! If one managed to get the bike started, the old girl ran like ....well a old scooter. It was fast up to ummm’ about 70 to 100 mph but it was kind of scary with the 19/51 gearing! I usually rode the 57' by myself in the mountains, it was like making love instead of having sex if you know what I mean, you know slow and easy.....

Thanks for your reply~

 

 

Ps on an unrelated subject, these huge spaces in the formatting are driving me nuts. I am self taught on the computer so I know nothing about code etc and formatting etc, but I have never had this problem before. I usually cut and paste and edit all my replies on my computers word processor then paste it back in the page here. However no matter how much I try to eliminate the spaces, nothing works. The preview is perfect then when I post comment its all screwed up. (sometimes at the top sometimes at the bottom and sometimes in the middle of the body of my reply).

 

If a moderator or admin can fix this for me I sure would appreciate it!


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danatemporary wrote:Quote:

 

 

danatemporary wrote:

Quote:
An atheist as I assume we all are, then, to make a very long, (decades) story short I dabbled in most major religions, the periods lasting up to a year and a half. I apostated from Christianity and atheistic beliefs several times, but have been a Christian for over ten years now. Ummm’ what else? I suppose we will get to that eh? Oh I have an MA in Comparative religion and my BA/BS major was microbiology with emphasis in archeology

Welcome! WELCOME with your background you are most welcome and rare and welcome. You can comment on other religions while still citing prohibitions like Deuteronomy 17's covenantal 'transgresses', among which, forbidded the worshiping of the Sun, the moon and the other created things. Activity can be at a stand still, then someone new comes along. I conclude you coming is alright with me, you simply have no idea how rare a fellow you are.

>

danatemporary wrote:

Hope you loom large on our horizon

Oh do tell! Flattery will get you everywhere! Your kind words are like medicine Danatemporary. I hope my new does not wear off anytime soon! I am overly impressed with the quality of people on this site. As far as my background, I am still working on personality issues such as pride, some pride is necessary, but too much blinds me, and uses up the emotional gas tank. Ha ha eh? When one loves himself too much there is less love to go around. Thanks again for your kind words, you may not know how much they mean to me.

Ps; Would you care to explain, or elaborate your sc name, its unique, I have found that avatars and sc names hold more importance that some realize, IMO.

 


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Hey Rev

RevGodapriori wrote:

 

Ps on an unrelated subject, these huge spaces in the formatting are driving me nuts. I am self taught on the computer so I know nothing about code etc and formatting etc, but I have never had this problem before. I usually cut and paste and edit all my replies on my computers word processor then paste it back in the page here. However no matter how much I try to eliminate the spaces, nothing works. The preview is perfect then when I post comment its all screwed up. (sometimes at the top sometimes at the bottom and sometimes in the middle of the body of my reply).

 

 

If a moderator or admin can fix this for me I sure would appreciate it!

 

Do your editing as a text file in Word or in notebook. That way the pasted file will be clean of extraneous bits. Word is an evil monster, iniquitous in all its particulars.

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Atheistextremist wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

RevGodapriori wrote:

 

Ps on an unrelated subject, these huge spaces in the formatting are driving me nuts. I am self taught on the computer so I know nothing about code etc and formatting etc, but I have never had this problem before. I usually cut and paste and edit all my replies on my computers word processor then paste it back in the page here. However no matter how much I try to eliminate the spaces, nothing works. The preview is perfect then when I post comment its all screwed up. (sometimes at the top sometimes at the bottom and sometimes in the middle of the body of my reply).

 

 

If a moderator or admin can fix this for me I sure would appreciate it!

 

Do your editing as a text file in Word or in notebook. That way the pasted file will be clean of extraneous bits. Word is an evil monster, iniquitous in all its particulars.

What I do is paste it in notepad, and then copy it again to paste it on here.  As AE has pointed out, Notepad doesn't handle the 'rich text' tags.  It comes out squeaky clean Smiling

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RevGodapriori wrote:Brian37

RevGodapriori wrote:

Brian37 wrote:
You sound like someone who thinks or thought they were an atheist and are aware of our knowledge so you throw it out there that "I was one too" To save you some time, It wouldn't matter to me if Dawkins or Hitchens proclaimed themselves to be Christians tomorrow, they would still have as much evidence for virgin births and zombie gods as you will have to defend if you are currently proclaiming yourself to be Christian right now. Not that Christianity, or any religion can prove the existence of a magical invisible super brain with no brain with magical super powers."I was an atheist"Is the same to me as"I was a Muslim""I was a Christian""I was a Hindu"I don't care.

 

 

Quote:
SHOW ME, don't pontificate about ancient books or their popularity or your personal ability to masturbate over them because their gang club personally appeals to you.SHOW ME how a thought can occur without a material process. Get your study replicated, tested and  falsified and independently peer reviewed and I will hand you the Nobel Prize myself.I'll meet you for your findings, lets say, a week from never?

 

 

Thanks for the skeptical attitude concerning my creditability. Yes that is sarcasm. I can guarantee you I was practicing positive atheism for an extended period of time and was as much an atheist as anyone that claims such things. Why lie about it? I don't become upset if someone makes the same claims about christanity. With all due respect I feel its a myth that once an atheist always an atheist. Also, again with all due respect, you are not the only member here. I offered my personal information up because ahhh’ ...well, this is the introduction thread? Right? When debating someone it helps to know their background. If you don't like what I have to say allow me to give you a hint; don't read my stuff. Avert thy eyes eh? Ha ha…Lastly I enjoyed your reply. Most show me's of science or what ever you use as an authority are no more real than the space between atoms that make up this monitor. So I usually rely on 'circumstantial evidence' for evidence of 'God" along with other items. Even though the DA does not see (SHOW ME) a perp committing the crime he can still fry for the offence. Do you understand where I am coming from? I hope we will be able to discuss some of the issues you raise civilly, like adults using common curtsy and mutual respect. If we can muster those simple items I will look forward to it.

Scientific method is not a courtroom and evidence in scientific method is not argued over like a court case to WIN or lose. Science is not about law or winning or losing a case. You don't have lawyers in labs defending data. You have scientists testing and falsifying data to confirm findings.

Scientific method is not adjudicated. It is a tool that scientists use to TEST and falsify. A science lab and a criminal or civil court ARE NOT BY ANY STRETCH COMPARABLE. They are two entirely different things.

And as far as knowing what a quark is, even though we haven't seen one, again, you are trying to treat how a court uses the word "evidence" in a legal sense, and confuse it with how science uses the word "evidence".

This is as stupid as "You cant see air but you know it exists". We know atoms exist and even quarks exist because of OBSERVATION of testable data through established method.

Your problem is that you are treating the laymen's lexicon as being the same language when scientists use it.

"Evidence" in the court usage means the precedence established by prior court rulings as to what a jury can see."Evidence" in this context is a legal term, not a scientific term.

"Evidence" in the scientific method usage is the end result of METHOD, not a popularity contest or something that is put up to a vote by a jury.

 

 

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 RevGodapriori

 

RevGodapriori wrote:

 

Ps; Would you care to explain, or elaborate your sc name, its unique, I have found that avatars and sc names hold more importance that some realize, IMO. 

 

Someone else once told me that, but never elaborated upon it. How does that work ?

 

 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Welcome RevG. Reasonable

Welcome RevG. Reasonable theists are few and far between, hopefully you are one.

I'm an ex-Christian Evangelical, relapsed Catholic heretic atheist that has studied theology, religion and the Bible since I could understand words. My mother was a Lutheran school teacher originally.  I have a grad degree from a Jesuit University. The more I studied the less I accepted similiar to Bart Ehrmam, though I'm no where the expert he is, but I do try. I have been an atheist for somewhere over 20 years.

I saw you lived in Cocoa Beach for a while when your father worked at the Cape.  I have lived in Florida since 1990 in Cape Canaveral and then Orlando, originally from Colorado where I may move back soon. I too have had a lot of life experiences in my long life which is probably 75% used up as well.

Anyway, welcome and hope to see you in some discussions.

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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harleysportster

harleysportster wrote:

 

RevGodapriori wrote:

 

Ps; Would you care to explain, or elaborate your sc name, its unique, I have found that avatars and sc names hold more importance that some realize, IMO. 

 

Someone else once told me that, but never elaborated upon it. How does that work ?

 

My screen name says a lot about my 16 year old self.  In that I used to love Metallica, and I used to love the song "The Call of Ktulu".  I hadn't even read Necronomicon at that point, in fact I was just learning English.  I don't think I have much in common with the kid that chose the BBS alias "Ktulu".  I don't read too much into the screen names personally.  I find the sigs. much more telling.   

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RevGodapriori wrote: The

RevGodapriori wrote:
The reason I joined this forum was meet more people of the atheist persuasion. I hope that the members here can learn from me.

Ummm...ok.

RevGodapriori wrote:
 Pride is negative emotion

According to whom?

RevGodapriori wrote:
 Being prideless as possible is to ‘be one with God’.

What's that supposed to mean?...

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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Agreed

redneF wrote:

RevGodapriori wrote:
The reason I joined this forum was meet more people of the atheist persuasion. I hope that the members here can learn from me.

Ummm...ok.

RevGodapriori wrote:
 Pride is negative emotion

According to whom?

RevGodapriori wrote:
 Being prideless as possible is to ‘be one with God’.

What's that supposed to mean?...

 

 

What is this particular version of pride? Being a total sociopathic wanker? Expecting yourself to be the best you can be and knowing when you got there? And no - being prideless has nothing to do with being 'one with god'. How can pridelessness be the proven mechanism for such a melding? Even as a metaphor it makes zero sense to me.

I can imagine that from the point of view of a god person looking to completely subdue all doubts, all sense of self, all competing stimuli, being able to describe the independent explorer in human nature as pride allows it to be packaged as sin. With your whole personality written off as criminal all you have to do is exist in the moment, guided by twinges from your conscience towards living for the lord. 

Groan. 

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Welcome! I've a few

Welcome! I've a few questions.

1: What is Open Theism?

2:

RevGodapriori wrote:
 The reason I joined this forum was meet more people of the atheist persuasion. I hope that the members here can learn from me.

 

Do you also hope to learn a bit yourself? I ask because when people hope for others to learn from them but aren't open to learning themselves, I'm not all that welcoming...


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Atheistextremist wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

RevGodapriori wrote:

However they really saved my life, because it wasn’t much later that God told me he had been trying to reach me and finally had to do something drastic to save my real life!

Quote:
What do you mean he 'told you', RevG? How? And what did he save you from and what is your 'real life'?

Sorry with me taking artistic licenses and for the cryptic terms. I sometimes do that to shorten a reply or to make it more readable. By real life I meant as a theist I believe that we 'live' forever. So this material life of 70 to 100 years is nothing really. The eternal is the real world. I should remember that I am at your all's play ground. I will attempt to use a disclaimer of other means to indicate I am using a word in an uncommon way!   What I mean by ‘told me’ was this; When I wrecked my bike I broke both legs, snapping the femur in my left leg with a compound commuted spiral  fracture. However, the left femur was all that plus it was open i.e. the bone came out. The left tibia and fibia were open fractures as well. Ditto for my left arm. I had a ruptured spleen and a bunch of other injuries. I coded (lost my heartbeat) while being transported for a short time and also when in the trauma unit. I remember losing control in and crashing, then waking up just after. I thought the ends of the broken bones were sticks in my clothes, when I found out they were the ends and pieces of bones I passed out ha ha! .. Just before I woke up, I overheard the EMTs talking and they said 'I would not make it if they sent me to a regular hospital, hearing that I passed out again! The third time I woke up, I knew something was 'wrong'. The pain was gone and it was dark. The full moon was gone as were the stars. But it was not all the way dark, and to make matters worse I felt as if I were standing on a ledge as if I were standing on plank suspended with an abyss down below and above, when I knew I could not stand up. Then I heard a normal 'voice' that said; 'do you want to die without knowing me?' I was terrified really, and I thought or said NO! (thinking maybe I would go to what we call hell if I said f*** you !...or something like that ha ha! And really I felt a profound need to find where that voice was coming from. Anyway I woke up in severe pain at the hospital with a huge black guy trying to get an X ray....that's all! See why I didn't tell the whole story?

Quote:
Additionally, it seems to me you are at once demanding empirical evidence for first cause from science and then cheerfully taking a position which is and always must be, inexplicable.

I do not have a double standard, I was attempting to show that both science and spiritual belief (supernatural) is the same in some instances. I was actually saying that science has a double standard. (when I say 'science' I mean the 'secular' scientific community)

Quote:
For instance, how does creation work? Can you explain the process of god-generated abiogenesis? If not, what forms the basis for your belief system that is not a subjective and untestable explanation?

I can explain how I came to believe that the 'God did it' explanation won me over from the other ideas of how the universe began. In school after getting my BS/BA I was trying to decide what courses to take. I was working out of state and I had a late registration in a certified satellite campus of the Univ of Anchorage AK. Since I was late I took a course in epistemology which touched on metaphysics and the philosophy of science. That little semester changed my life. There I learned about Kurt Godel* and from there I learned about Cosmological Arguments. And from there I learned about the KCA which I mentioned earlier. The KCA is an cosmological argument that forms a logical syllogism which in turn explains how the universe could be created by a 'cause' which has properties that are identical to what most people would ID as 'God'.

Quote:
It is acceptable to say that there are some things you cannot explain - but this acceptance would involve taking a neutral position when it comes to first cause. You, however, do not do this.
As ever, I can't help feeling the primary 'sin' is that of reasonable doubt.

Yes I detest saying 'I don't know' when I really think I do know, ha ha! I don't know more things that I do know. And the list is growing. However if I have enough information I can not help but to form an opinion. The good thing about faith is that for the things unknowable there remains an explanation! Thanks so much for your reply.

* Here is another very relevant and probably my favorite quote by Kurt Godel; "I don't believe in empirical science. I only believe in a priori truth."
— Kurt Godel

 

 


 

 


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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

RevGodapriori wrote:

 

Ps on an unrelated subject, these huge spaces in the formatting are driving me nuts. I am self taught on the computer so I know nothing about code etc and formatting etc, but I have never had this problem before. I usually cut and paste and edit all my replies on my computers word processor then paste it back in the page here. However no matter how much I try to eliminate the spaces, nothing works. The preview is perfect then when I post comment its all screwed up. (sometimes at the top sometimes at the bottom and sometimes in the middle of the body of my reply).

 

 

If a moderator or admin can fix this for me I sure would appreciate it!

 

Do your editing as a text file in Word or in notebook. That way the pasted file will be clean of extraneous bits. Word is an evil monster, iniquitous in all its particulars.

 

 

 

Thanks for the advice! I agree with you about the WP! I wondered why I had to cut artifacts and weird bits and pieces out of some documents! BTW, I took your advice on the post before this one. It did much better and the spaces while still huge are at least equal. However how do I do it as a text file? I just cut and then pasted in notebook, is it automatically an text file? The only 'formatting' options I see in notebook is font or word wrap. I have a feeling my entire system is corrupt, I think I have had a persistent hacker on my butt for sometime now.


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Ktulu wrote:Atheistextremist

Ktulu wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

RevGodapriori wrote:

 

Ps on an unrelated subject, these huge spaces in the formatting are driving me nuts. I am self taught on the computer so I know nothing about code etc and formatting etc, but I have never had this problem before. I usually cut and paste and edit all my replies on my computers word processor then paste it back in the page here. However no matter how much I try to eliminate the spaces, nothing works. The preview is perfect then when I post comment its all screwed up. (sometimes at the top sometimes at the bottom and sometimes in the middle of the body of my reply).

 

 

If a moderator or admin can fix this for me I sure would appreciate it!

 

Do your editing as a text file in Word or in notebook. That way the pasted file will be clean of extraneous bits. Word is an evil monster, iniquitous in all its particulars.

What I do is paste it in notepad, and then copy it again to paste it on here.  As AE has pointed out, Notepad doesn't handle the 'rich text' tags.  It comes out squeaky clean Smiling

 

Thanks for the assistance as per my last post I tried that, it works better but I think something else is going on. For example the bottom of the page here, the ad covers up part of the page, I know I have messed up something on this thing, I am too damn broke to buy another computer even though the cheaper ones are almost disposable these days! I just hope its not irritating to you guys, I can deal with it. Oh lastly one more request? How do I edit my notifications? I would like instant e mail notification if possible, and am not getting it. If a mod or the admin could do that for me I would be eternally grateful! Thank all of you for making this a good experience...


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Vastet wrote:Welcome! I feel

Vastet wrote:
Welcome! I feel fair warning is in order: The majority of theists who've come here over the years are arrogant, ignorant jerks. As a result, responses to theist posts are sometimes more vicious than warranted. I myself have made the mistake on occasion. So try not to take it personally if it happens. Some of us have been oppressed by religion our whole lives. Hopefully you stick around. It's nice seeing theists who aren't spouting fire and brimstone with every third word.

I understand and apologize for those malicious members that have come before me. I am not saying I am perfect or anything, no I am a sinner and make as many mistakes as anyone else. However I try my best not to be mean or arrogant etc. I would do that no matter what my beliefs were just as most of us would. That said I kind of understand (and detest) the ugly christian, it's like the ugly American X a zillion. I am working overtime on being humble for more reasons than it's what the New Testament teaches. It is difficult for a egomaniac like myself. The ugly Christians harm Christianity more than a legion of demons could on their best day! And those money grubbing extortionists, the TV evangelists are the just as bad, no they are worst really, not different than a common thief. I do not know how those supreme parasites can miss the part of JC's teachings that strictly forbid such activities! Unless something bad happens, either I screw up so bad its not repairable or it's something worse I hope to stay as long as its mutually good stuff! Thanks for your kind words...


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RevGodapriori wrote:Ktulu

RevGodapriori wrote:

Ktulu wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

RevGodapriori wrote:

 

Ps on an unrelated subject, these huge spaces in the formatting are driving me nuts. I am self taught on the computer so I know nothing about code etc and formatting etc, but I have never had this problem before. I usually cut and paste and edit all my replies on my computers word processor then paste it back in the page here. However no matter how much I try to eliminate the spaces, nothing works. The preview is perfect then when I post comment its all screwed up. (sometimes at the top sometimes at the bottom and sometimes in the middle of the body of my reply).

 

 

If a moderator or admin can fix this for me I sure would appreciate it!

 

Do your editing as a text file in Word or in notebook. That way the pasted file will be clean of extraneous bits. Word is an evil monster, iniquitous in all its particulars.

What I do is paste it in notepad, and then copy it again to paste it on here.  As AE has pointed out, Notepad doesn't handle the 'rich text' tags.  It comes out squeaky clean Smiling

 

Thanks for the assistance as per my last post I tried that, it works better but I think something else is going on. For example the bottom of the page here, the ad covers up part of the page, I know I have messed up something on this thing, I am too damn broke to buy another computer even though the cheaper ones are almost disposable these days! I just hope its not irritating to you guys, I can deal with it. Oh lastly one more request? How do I edit my notifications? I would like instant e mail notification if possible, and am not getting it. If a mod or the admin could do that for me I would be eternally grateful! Thank all of you for making this a good experience...

You are not irritating any of us, but claims of invisible brains with no material and magical super powers is irritating. In the context that if you claimed the earth was flat, that would irritate us.

Again, there is a difference between a person, and what a person may claim ON ANY SUBJECT. I know in your life, a friend or family member said something and you thought, or said to them "That's absurd" or "that doesn't make sense".

I can only speak for myself, but the things that irritate me, and will tick me off, are not absurd claims.

Threats of condemnation "You're gonna burn in hell", done out of hate. And complaining about being at an atheist website no one is forced to read or post at. I always advise theists that this is not personal, this is merely about the claims they make.

Other than that, I might pull my hair out reading your claims, and I most certainly will have fun tearing them apart, but your claims are not you, they are merely positions you hold.

 

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I wonder if you would have a

I wonder if you would have a one on one conversation with me Rev.  I am interested in picking your brain a little.  I would particularly like to know how you define your epistemological POV.  If you're interested set up a new thread.  

 

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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Boy, oh boy.

RevGodapriori wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Welcome! I feel fair warning is in order: The majority of theists who've come here over the years are arrogant, ignorant jerks. As a result, responses to theist posts are sometimes more vicious than warranted. I myself have made the mistake on occasion. So try not to take it personally if it happens. Some of us have been oppressed by religion our whole lives. Hopefully you stick around. It's nice seeing theists who aren't spouting fire and brimstone with every third word.

I understand and apologize for those malicious members that have come before me. I am not saying I am perfect or anything, no I am a sinner and make as many mistakes as anyone else. However I try my best not to be mean or arrogant etc. I would do that no matter what my beliefs were just as most of us would. That said I kind of understand (and detest) the ugly christian, it's like the ugly American X a zillion. I am working overtime on being humble for more reasons than it's what the New Testament teaches. It is difficult for a egomaniac like myself. The ugly Christians harm Christianity more than a legion of demons could on their best day! And those money grubbing extortionists, the TV evangelists are the just as bad, no they are worst really, not different than a common thief. I do not know how those supreme parasites can miss the part of JC's teachings that strictly forbid such activities! Unless something bad happens, either I screw up so bad its not repairable or it's something worse I hope to stay as long as its mutually good stuff! Thanks for your kind words...

 

just be yourself RevG. The last thing we need is some great effort of humble or to hear you call yourself a 'sinner'. You are a human, period. Bathing in your own sense of failure does not mean anything useful has been learned. 

Personally, everyone I know is a bit bent one way or another, and understanding that and mutually making room for each other's wee flaws and mental scars and projections, forgiving and apologising where required, is what being a friend and a mature human being is all about.

Casting human forgiveness and human understanding as being a response to arbitrarily defined moral failure makes no sense whatever. I deplore this false labeling of humanity's intrinsic nature, evolved from a simultaneous need for selfishness and selflessness. There can never be parity in a world of competition. There can never be universal empathy. There can never be a state of arbitrary 'perfection'. 

There's just us, RevGod. Doing our best, alone on our cosmic life raft. Whether you see this or not, there is profoundness and beauty aplenty in the fierce intensity of our mortal predicament. The way forward is through mutual effort and understanding, not the indulgence of spiritual self spanking. 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

RevGodapriori wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Welcome! I feel fair warning is in order: The majority of theists who've come here over the years are arrogant, ignorant jerks. As a result, responses to theist posts are sometimes more vicious than warranted. I myself have made the mistake on occasion. So try not to take it personally if it happens. Some of us have been oppressed by religion our whole lives. Hopefully you stick around. It's nice seeing theists who aren't spouting fire and brimstone with every third word.

I understand and apologize for those malicious members that have come before me. I am not saying I am perfect or anything, no I am a sinner and make as many mistakes as anyone else. However I try my best not to be mean or arrogant etc. I would do that no matter what my beliefs were just as most of us would. That said I kind of understand (and detest) the ugly christian, it's like the ugly American X a zillion. I am working overtime on being humble for more reasons than it's what the New Testament teaches. It is difficult for a egomaniac like myself. The ugly Christians harm Christianity more than a legion of demons could on their best day! And those money grubbing extortionists, the TV evangelists are the just as bad, no they are worst really, not different than a common thief. I do not know how those supreme parasites can miss the part of JC's teachings that strictly forbid such activities! Unless something bad happens, either I screw up so bad its not repairable or it's something worse I hope to stay as long as its mutually good stuff! Thanks for your kind words...

 

just be yourself RevG. The last thing we need is some great effort of humble or to hear you call yourself a 'sinner'. You are a human, period. Bathing in your own sense of failure does not mean anything useful has been learned. 

Personally, everyone I know is a bit bent one way or another, and understanding that and mutually making room for each other's wee flaws and mental scars and projections, forgiving and apologising where required, is what being a friend and a mature human being is all about.

Casting human forgiveness and human understanding as being a response to arbitrarily defined moral failure makes no sense whatever. I deplore this false labeling of humanity's intrinsic nature, evolved from a simultaneous need for selfishness and selflessness. There can never be parity in a world of competition. There can never be universal empathy. There can never be a state of arbitrary 'perfection'. 

There's just us, RevGod. Doing our best, alone on our cosmic life raft. Whether you see this or not, there is profoundness and beauty aplenty in the fierce intensity of our mortal predicament. The way forward is through mutual effort and understanding, not the indulgence of spiritual self spanking. 

 

 

 

I hate the word "sinner". It is nothing but a magic superstitious word to state the mundane reality that humans are flawed and make mistakes.

Quote:
spiritual self spanking

That sums it up. It takes mundane evolution and human existence and turns it into comic book self loathing.

In reality, outside the masochist bible, I can accept that I have hurt others and make mistakes, but I don't pawn those things and scapegoat my shortfalls to a fictional battle between a man with pitchfork and a man in a toga with beard.

Life is BOTH good and bad, and our existence is not dependent on Superman vs Lex Luther.

And even worse is that the superstitious word "sin" is arbitrary and is even attributed to something as non-threatening as belonging to a different club. Any claim of a god that includes treating outsiders as "bad" is immoral.

If a god existed and called me a "sinner" merely because my only crime is "I don't want to hang out with you" that is not a being I would want to worship. That to me would be like an abused spouse confusing her beatings for "love", just because he shows her attention.

 

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BobSpence1 wrote:

RevGodapriori,

it may not surprise you to hear that I disagree fundamentally with pretty much all of your comments there, but it may be best at this point to take the issues into new separate threads as you suggest.

Yes I am not surprised and I am excited that we may be able to at least understand the whys of our differences and hopefully remain friends while doing so. I am very happy that so many of you guys really want to know and discuss in a friendly manner about my beliefs, and of course I want to learn from you all just as much. This forum that you have is far and beyond the best in all areas of interest any primarily atheist boards I have experienced.

I have stuck to the non-motorized cycles, and it seems to have only been positive as to my current health and fitness status...

I love all two wheeled cycles. The technology of bicycles is amazing, by that I mean the materials engineering and such. I also like the cruisers ie the steel framed old style bikes. I have been looking at the bikes at wally world each time I go down there, the prices are remarkably low unless one wants a top of the line racer or mountain bike. I would like to buy a cheap sturdy one when my funds allow, but right now astronomy, star gazing is my hobby, and I can barley afford that! The nonprofit business is the worse I have ever seen and will more than likely be picking up a second job soon. Worse case is shutting the doors if our economy does not improve the next year…

Quote:
There is zero warrant for assuming any first cause need be anything but the most infinitesimal quantum twitch, so KCA proves nothing about anything of interest.

I can not agree. You may want to delve a bit deeper into the KCA if you haven’t already. The only thing I listed was the first three premises of the CA (cosmological argument). It and its cousins ie ontological arguments is a semester long endeavor, or was for me. I should mention that I accept the same theory of universe origins as do most mainstream astronomers and cosmologists. That theory is called standard (hot) big bang model. It’s being attacked right now and I feel it’s being attacked because it does point towards the universe beginning to exist, and this universe that we now find ourselves in being the first and only universe vs. the universe being eternal or cyclic with the possibility many universes or even infinite universes called the multiverse, metaverse (meaning parallel infinite universes) or the MWI or many worlds interpretation. The reason I covered all that is to eliminate confusion later in the conversation. Ok the reason I disagree is that all quantum effects particles including virtual particles were created in the big bang, as was all energy fields, gravity mass and time itself according to the current BB theory. So although confusing there was no quantum foam or particles of any kind ‘before’** the big bang.

1…Anything that begins to exist has a cause for its existence

2.….The universe began to exist

3.…Therefore a cause caused the universe to begin to exist.

 

http://ssscott.tripod.com/BigBang.html

So you can see that there were no material forces etc before the big bang at all, only the ‘cause’ that caused the big bang to begin to exist. It’s rational to assume that this ‘cause’ was God because it’s by the premises of the KCA eternal or atemporal, and it can create a life giving universe to begin to exist. Nothing known to science has these properties, but they are commonly attributed to what is known as ‘God’. I am not saying the KCA can lend evidence to a Judeo-Christian type God. I rely on the KCA only to show the rationality that a God like entity exists. Later and with different evidences etc I show the type of God that may be the most likely candidate. But that feat is not in the realm of my interpretation of the KCA. However some theologists do assert that they can show that the KCA gives evidence to a particular type God such as the Hebrew God, Robert Koons and William Craig (both mutli-degreed PhDs)***.

*** http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/cosmological-argument/

Quote:
Quantum mechanics point away from the spiritual, except in the minds who misunderstand the 'observer effect'.

Maybe you are correct if the spiritual person etc was uneducated. The observer effect has nothing to do at all with the KCA and is just part of the interpertation of one of the many interpretations of quantum theory called the collopse of the wave funtion (caused by the observer). I would think that you would reject that interpertation because it does suggest that sentient beings have a mind over matter capability. Personally I embrace the Copenhagen interpertation of QT.

 

I often marvel when I hear believers attribute God as having intervened to save their life in some way after some serious accident or disease.

My reaction is first, he would have had the power to stop the bad crap happening in the first place, so that is already problematic. And if it was some kind of test, or a shock designed to encourage you into taking him seriously, why has he left me, a life-long atheist, who regularly curses and blasphemes his name, encourages others to treat the idea with similar disdain, to pursue a quite fulfilling life into a healthy 'old age', without any equivalent trauma?

Apart from an incidence of potentially life-threatening appendicitis in my early twenties, although there was little suffering involved, thanks to a decent government sponsored health system and modern surgery.

Seems to me I have adopted the better strategy. I certainly would not want to be punished with an after-life in the presence of such an inherently evil entity as the Christian/Islamic God.

Anyway, I will watch out for any threads you care to start, to get into detailed discussion of these issues.

 

MY COMPUTER IS GETTING READY TO CRASH SO I HAVE TO POST THIS UNFINISHED AND UNEDITED, MY WORD FCDOCUMENT WILL NOT SAVE THE ABOVE AND SO I HAVE TO PULL THE PLUG ON THE DAMN THING...HA HA... PLEASE DO NOT COMMENT ON IT UNTIL I FINISH MAN, HOW STRANGE IS THAT? DO YOU GUYS KNOW THE MORAL OF THIS STORY? NEVER PISS OFF AN PROFESSIONAL HACKER!

 


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RevGodapriori

RevGodapriori wrote:

1…Anything that begins to exist has a cause for its existence

2.….The universe began to exist

3.…Therefore a cause caused the universe to begin to exist.

The KCA has zero explanatory power. It's just preaching to the choir.

Would you like to debate this 1 on 1 with me?

The last theist who tried to play William Lane Craig for a day with me, with the KCA, gave up rather soon when he saw he couldn't defend it against me.

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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  I’m back. Either

 

 

I’m back. Either my computer is still messed up or I am doing something horribly wrong in the formatting etc. On the bottom reply I only see the ad for the ‘get the RSS gear, which covers up the edit quote reply tags. I hate to be a pest but this is the damnedest thing! It only happens on this site, and I post on three others occasionally….maybe the devil is doing it? Ha ha~ I can work around it I suppose~ oh one last thing when I could not find the quote edit reply tags I 'copied all' and pasted it on notebook...yep there they were, they must be 'under' the ad. If I had hair I would pull it out! I am sure its something I am doing.  Anyway here is the rest of the reply Mr BobSpence;

BobSpence1 wrote:
I often marvel when I hear believers attribute God as having intervened to save their life in some way after some serious accident or disease.

Well many believers claim that its happened before during and after an event so it does not only happen after a accident, still though I can see how you would be surprised at that. BTW, that is not what happened to me either. As for general settings, I think that after God or an ID designed and created the universe he (or it etc) pretty much lets the universe run on autopilot. There is scripture that indicates that in this period there will be no or very little supernatural intervention, Gods work will be done by the body of Jesus which has been interpreted to mean that the church is the body of Jesus and should do Gods will. By that I mean Christians are gods temporal conduit in the material universe. I do think that in the same way quantum entanglement works that prayer or supernormal as opposed to supernatural events may work. As far as major miracles go, I tend not to believe in them for several reasons. First and primary is that if God intervened in the natural order of things it would change the entire future. I do not feel God is Omniscient. in this universe, but he is perfect in his own realm. In other words God had to create our natural universe to be as it is, as Einstein said he may not of had a choice.

Quote:
My reaction is first, he would have had the power to stop the bad crap happening in the first place, so that is already problematic. And if it was some kind of test, or a shock designed to encourage you into taking him seriously, why has he left me, a life-long atheist, who regularly curses and blasphemes his name, encourages others to treat the idea with similar disdain, to pursue a quite fulfilling life into a healthy 'old age', without any equivalent trauma?

Apart from an incidence of potentially life-threatening appendicitis in my early twenties, although there was little suffering involved, thanks to a decent government sponsored health system and modern surgery.

I think God can stop bad things from happening and still have a universe that will produce a spiritual being worthy of eternal life. Additionally God does not create evil or bad, that is the result of mans decisions. I agree that it does not seem fair or even creditable that a loving God would allow it. However I have learned to see things differently much like a physicists sees reality differently. I can not even begin to answer that in a paragraph so I will save that for another thread. Here is a link that comes close to what I believe if you are interested ;

http://www.christadelphia.org/pamphlet/sufferng.htm

 

Quote:
me I have adopted the better strategy. I certainly would not want to be punished with an after-life in the presence of such an inherently evil entity as the Christian/Islamic God.

Anyway, I will watch out for any threads you care to start, to get into detailed discussion of these issues.

There are scripture that lends evidence that hell is not made for humans. As for the evil Christian God I see Jesus as God and he was all about love. If we followed the teachings of Jesus I think our worldly problems would be eliminated. I do agree unless one is well versed in the bible the Old Testament writings are scary. However they are like old laws of man, the new laws or maybe I should say the pared down laws (the commandments) and the teachings of Jesus supersede the old mosaic laws. Thanks for your reply and I hope to get this formatting problem worked out. Thanks to everyone for the kindness and candor shown to me in this forum.

 

 


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Whether Reality - note I am

Whether Reality - note I am not restricting myself to the artificial distinction between 'material' or 'physical' or 'temporal' existence and a magic God-realm - somehow is bounded in the time dimension by the Big Bang event or not is the subject of much hypothesising, and there are tiny clues which may take us back 'before' the assumed 'singularity'. A quantum foam, or higher dimensional version of it, is very definitely a valid proposal - we have no reason to suppose that some analogue of matter/energy does not exist beyond the space-time environment of our observed Universe.

All the First Cause need be is an ultimate physical Law.

There is no logical requirement that it have purpose of intent. Or 'will' except in a very metaphorical sense.

Positing a God only complicates everything, by introducing something that would require a whole new level of explanation for why it exists.

Thought REQUIRES more than elemental simplicity, and really requires something equivalent to a temporal dimension to be meaningful. Their must be a progression along at least one dimension. Eternal and atemporal implies a stasis, incompatible with action or will of any kind.

If something as high-level and complex as a 'God' can either simply 'be' or even spontaneously come to be, then it is even more possible for the Big Bang singularity. The only explanation for existence is via a chain of small 'causes' leading to greater effects. This does not necessitate any infinities of time, space, or energy, and in a practical sense, ie outside the mathematical world of infinitesimals, needs literally only the smallest possible 'cause' above zero. We know by countless examples that great 'effects' can arise from trivial 'causes'.

So the God theory is a total fail at every level. But to fully recognize that requires a minimum level of understanding of physics, math, logic, biology, complexity theory, quantum mechanics, etc., so it is understandable why most people settle for the Gog hypothesis.

It may be that the Big Bang took place within a meta-verse of 'branes' or 'cosmic strings', of up to 11 dimensions. There are various theories of how more BB's could bud off our universe as it expands into heat death where dark energy dominates.

So the issue of 'begins to exist' is really only a distinction between an eternal Law and the consequences of that Law.

Theists like to dismiss the "what created God" question as naive and simplistic, but it encapsulates a core problem with the 'creator God' hypothesis. IMHO an insurmountable one.Theology is total bunk. Metaphysics is not much better. I justify these statements on the FACT that it only needs one fallacious assumption in a purely deductive (ie not empirically or evidence-based) argument for you to be able to 'prove' literally anything.

=====

Quantum Theory DOES NOT require a conscious observer, that is a naive myth, which even some scientists have been guilty of perpetuating, whether by the habitual use of metaphorical language, or by some real misunderstanding themselves.

I did not say it has anything to do with the KCA.

There have been several experiment explicitly designed to test this, and all that has been shown to be required for 'collapse of teh wave-function' is a certain level of causal interaction with the macro world of constantly interacting particles. Recent experiments have allowed the degree of interaction of a tiny 'observer' device to be adjusted, and show how the quantum state is affected to varying degrees.

So please drop this one. It has been explicitly quashed.

====

William Lane Craig is a showman, who uses his degrees, and his speaking skills, to give his dishonest and fallacy-ridden arguments an air of respectability and profundity, which is eagerly embraced by those who agree with his position. I have listened to several of his 'debates' and I have nothing but the deepest contempt for him. A logical fallacy or appeal to emotion/intuition in just about every sentence. A disgusting human being, at least to someone like myself who deeply values the honest quest for Truth. Sorry for the rant, but I do have my values, and he offends them profoundly.

=====

I do value these discussions, they give my brain a chance to follow a different track for a while, but I must get back to work - switch to my editing programs, and carry on coding and debugging....

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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RevGodapriori

RevGodapriori wrote:

 

 

 

 

I’m back. Either my computer is still messed up or I am doing something horribly wrong in the formatting etc. On the bottom reply I only see the ad for the ‘get the RSS gear, which covers up the edit quote reply tags. I hate to be a pest but this is the damnedest thing! It only happens on this site, and I post on three others occasionally….maybe the devil is doing it? Ha ha~ I can work around it I suppose~ oh one last thing when I could not find the quote edit reply tags I 'copied all' and pasted it on notebook...yep there they were, they must be 'under' the ad. If I had hair I would pull it out! I am sure its something I am doing.  Anyway here is the rest of the reply Mr BobSpence;

BobSpence1 wrote:
I often marvel when I hear believers attribute God as having intervened to save their life in some way after some serious accident or disease.

Well many believers claim that its happened before during and after an event so it does not only happen after a accident, still though I can see how you would be surprised at that. BTW, that is not what happened to me either. As for general settings, I think that after God or an ID designed and created the universe he (or it etc) pretty much lets the universe run on autopilot. There is scripture that indicates that in this period there will be no or very little supernatural intervention, Gods work will be done by the body of Jesus which has been interpreted to mean that the church is the body of Jesus and should do Gods will. By that I mean Christians are gods temporal conduit in the material universe. I do think that in the same way quantum entanglement works that prayer or supernormal as opposed to supernatural events may work. As far as major miracles go, I tend not to believe in them for several reasons. First and primary is that if God intervened in the natural order of things it would change the entire future. I do not feel God is Omniscient. in this universe, but he is perfect in his own realm. In other words God had to create our natural universe to be as it is, as Einstein said he may not of had a choice.

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My reaction is first, he would have had the power to stop the bad crap happening in the first place, so that is already problematic. And if it was some kind of test, or a shock designed to encourage you into taking him seriously, why has he left me, a life-long atheist, who regularly curses and blasphemes his name, encourages others to treat the idea with similar disdain, to pursue a quite fulfilling life into a healthy 'old age', without any equivalent trauma?

Apart from an incidence of potentially life-threatening appendicitis in my early twenties, although there was little suffering involved, thanks to a decent government sponsored health system and modern surgery.

I think God can stop bad things from happening and still have a universe that will produce a spiritual being worthy of eternal life. Additionally God does not create evil or bad, that is the result of mans decisions. I agree that it does not seem fair or even creditable that a loving God would allow it. However I have learned to see things differently much like a physicists sees reality differently. I can not even begin to answer that in a paragraph so I will save that for another thread. Here is a link that comes close to what I believe if you are interested ;

http://www.christadelphia.org/pamphlet/sufferng.htm

 

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me I have adopted the better strategy. I certainly would not want to be punished with an after-life in the presence of such an inherently evil entity as the Christian/Islamic God.

Anyway, I will watch out for any threads you care to start, to get into detailed discussion of these issues.

There are scripture that lends evidence that hell is not made for humans. As for the evil Christian God I see Jesus as God and he was all about love. If we followed the teachings of Jesus I think our worldly problems would be eliminated. I do agree unless one is well versed in the bible the Old Testament writings are scary. However they are like old laws of man, the new laws or maybe I should say the pared down laws (the commandments) and the teachings of Jesus supersede the old mosaic laws. Thanks for your reply and I hope to get this formatting problem worked out. Thanks to everyone for the kindness and candor shown to me in this forum.

 

 

I am not really a fan of debating bible verse interpretation. I prefer to attack the absurd magical claims.

BUT, you just said that the new law NT over rides the OT? You have a problem then because we can find quotes of Jesus saying he is there to fulfill the OT laws. Which is it?

The OT does have some scary shit in it as you admit.

But so what? So if I beat the shit out of you, apologize and promise not do do it again, does that make it ok? And in Revelations doesn't god go back to being a violent prick to outsiders? So all that crap about peace in the middle was just a ruse to get people to convert?

I'm sorry but your god character from page one is written by like a manipulative asshole. He punishes people who had no clue as to what they had done with a trap he set himself. In legal terms that is called entrapment and did so with innocent people.

He watches, condones or allows the genocide of mere infants. Then he causes a flood, which is mass genocide, blames us for what he didn't have to allow. And you expect us to ignore that?

"He doesn't do that any more"

Here's a clue, he never did it in the first place because the bible is merely a book of myth.

And while we are at "law" don't hand me this garbage about the old laws not counting any more because I am quite sure you advocate the ten commandments. But yet ignore the fact that God calls eating shell fish an abomination.

Boy is Red Lobster in trouble.

You are cherry picking because you, as you admit, the OT is a violent book. There is no way around the violence God watches, allows and even condones. A fictional fake suicide in the middle of the book doesn't change the violent beginning or violent end of that book

It most certainly is the greatest immoral story ever sold.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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RevGodapriori
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  Brian37 wrote:

 

 

Brian37 wrote:
Scientific method is not a courtroom and evidence in scientific method is not argued over like a court case to WIN or lose. Science is not about law or winning or losing a case. You don't have lawyers in labs defending data. You have scientists testing and falsifying data to confirm findings.

That’s all true however, yet evidence is evidence. I used the courtroom example as an analogy to show the relationship and similarities between the concepts.

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Scientific method is not adjudicated. It is a tool that scientists use to TEST and falsify. A science lab and a criminal or civil court ARE NOT BY ANY STRETCH COMPARABLE. They are two entirely different things.

Again that is true, and again I could have used many examples other than a courtroom to show that evidence the same, unless specified, for example empirical evidence vs. general evidence. Even though science uses both there is a double standard. As I said string theory never made one verifiable prediction (until maybe recently) but it was accepted as valid science. If say ID was presented one of the claims against it is that it has not made one verifiable claim and thus inassimilable hence the double standard.

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And as far as knowing what a quark is, even though we haven't seen one, again, you are trying to treat how a court uses the word "evidence" in a legal sense, and confuse it with how science uses the word "evidence".

I disagree, or maybe you misunderstood my intent. You took out of context different lines of thought. I was using a quark or an virtual particle to demonstrate that science believes in things that are only theatrical and not verified as ‘real’. I was showing that when using the word ‘evidence’ we have to be very, very specific.

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This is as stupid as "You cant see air but you know it exists". We know atoms exist and even quarks exist because of OBSERVATION of testable data through established method.

Well you are incorrect (but not stupid) on two areas. Language is failing you. You can not say we ‘know’ (with a 100% probability) that atoms or quarks exist. They are theoretical entities. The second falsehood is the comparison. Actually the air may not exist at least as what we think it is. The elements have been shown to exist by mass spectrometer and other experiments. However, even though its more probable that air exists than say the Higgs Boson exists, still one can not say with 100% surety that it exists! As silly as it seems there is no guarantee that one day even the nitrogen, O2, CO2, and trace gases were shown to be an inaccurate assessment! I went out to the farside with that, and it was said more in fun than as a serious rant but think about it; The science of today will in all probability be quaint myth a thousand years from now.

Quote:
Your problem is that you are treating the laymen's lexicon as being the same language when scientists use it."Evidence" in the court usage means the precedence established by prior court rulings as to what a jury can see. "Evidence" in this context is a legal term, not a scientific term."Evidence" in the scientific method usage is the end result of METHOD, not a popularity contest or something that is put up to a vote by a jury.

Yes I hope I have cleared that up by now. However you do bring up a good point. When speaking to a mixed audience one can not use strictly professional terms because everyone including myself would be confused! There is legalese and language specific to certain disciplines in science, then there is the same for math, engineering etc! So what I try to do is delineate how I am using a word. For example, saying there is no evidence for the existence of God is wrong. Saying there is no tangible, empirical scientific evidence for the existence of God is correct.

I appreciate your reply and hope I have cleared up any misconceptions. If I haven’t I would be happy to expand on anything I said. I have the most difficult time not signing these things~


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harleysportster

harleysportster wrote:

 

RevGodapriori wrote:

 

Ps; Would you care to explain, or elaborate your sc name, its unique, I have found that avatars and sc names hold more importance that some realize, IMO. 

 

Someone else once told me that, but never elaborated upon it. How does that work ?

 

 

I am cautious when attempting to be an armchair psychologist so I will limit my comments to general stuff, ha ha, eh? Really it’s a general comment anyway because I am sure some people don’t give too much thought to SC names or avatars! I hope the answer is not too unexciting to you. But I its just life experience, kind of like body language and clothing. Screen names are often carefully chosen, mine for example has Rev in it because I am a rev haha and the aproi is in it because Kurt Gödel is a hero of mine and he was a believer in apori knowledge. So that is about it…I am kind ofembarrassed because I don’t know the all the why of it without going into the armchair thing ! Thank for your reply…hey keep the rubber side down on that sportster!

 

I am wondering have I missed anyone in turn? I am trying to answer in order...at least the first replies.