why argue?

jesstacia
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why argue?

Why do athiests and thiests have to argue? You can believe what you want, whether there is a god or no god. but you dont have to try change another's beliefs.


BobSpence
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Because beliefs usually

Because beliefs usually inform actions, and some belief-inspired actions can lead to real harm to real people.

And people have often thanked us for helping to show them the foolishness of God-belief.

Some of us value truth, and the honest search for truth, and religion is the opposite of truth and honesty.

Many things people do are things they don't have to do, that is not the point.

Religious beliefs have a strong influence on how people vote, and how people who get into positions of power act, so they can have a major impact on a whole nation.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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Why do theists have to mix

Why do theists have to mix their religion into their politics?

And by the way, why not argue?

And another thing: Why are you telling us that we don't have to try to change another's beliefs?  You don't have to tell us that, either. But you did.

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Welcome Jesstacia

 

Pleased to meet you.

Personally, I think monotheistic religions can be demonstrated to be divisive, oppressive and readily subverted to extreme causes. They are also morally inconsistent. 

Those who don't believe the arbitrary cultural 'morals' of theism are described as sinners, gentiles, dhimmis and unbelievers and called immoral, not on the basis of their behaviour but on the basis on their thoughts. 

The christian religion I grew up on insists there is ancestral (genetic) sin and eternal hell and torment for justifiable doubts. It insists the crime of not accepting the invisible holy spirit is the unforgivable sin. 

Worst of all, it crams these fallacious arguments down the throats of young children before they are capable of self defence - arguments that are no more than ad hominem backed by fallacies from force.

"Believe you are evil, you stupid, worthless child, or be tortured forever." That pretty much sums up fundamentalist christianity for me.

Liberals may drone away about 'only seeing the negatives' but this is a joke. Jesus is meant to have died to save humans from their crime of existing. There is no other possible interpretation. 

None of these points address the foolish cognitive biases of the theistic believer. Even the most sophisticated christians must ultimately embrace arguments from complexity, whereupon their assertions are exposed. 

We have a responsibility to speak out against the hate crimes and embedded ignorance perpetuated by christianity and islam, wherever they may be found.

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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 jesstacia wrote:Why do

 

jesstacia wrote:
Why do athiests and thiests have to argue? You can believe what you want, whether there is a god or no god. but you dont have to try change another's beliefs.

 

Well, the people of Japan (a great many of them anyway) believe that there are millions of gods. Now I am not a fan of that idea either but they are not trying to force the idea into school curriculum.

 

If you really want to believe weird shit, the be my guest on that. But don't tell me that the “All Being Master of Time, Space and Everything” has decided that we can't tell teenagers about rubbers because he really wants life destroying pregnancies that must never be terminated.

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jesstacia wrote:Why do

jesstacia wrote:

Why do athiests and thiests have to argue? You can believe what you want, whether there is a god or no god. but you dont have to try change another's beliefs.

You sound young and you also sound like you are having an emotional reaction to things you are not used to hearing.

Why do we argue? First off because in western societies the right to criticize any and all claims by our elected officials or even merely our neighbors is protected by secular law. Anything less is fascism and no one wants that.

SECONDLY, the right to make claims on any subject IS NOT our issue. The ability to demonstrate the credibility of any given claim IS our issue.

Why do we question others beliefs? Why shouldn't we? If humans never questioned social norms our species never would have left the caves. We would still believe the earth was flat ant the Egyptians would still believe that the sun was a god.

Do you think our species should dwell in the past and base their lives on tribal myths? Or do you think we have better tools to measure reality, like science, in technology, medicine, and space exploration?

Believing in invisible friends retards discovery and infects politics. None of us here are out to end religion by force of law. But we damned sure don't think humans need ancient stories by any label.

Why do we argue? Because we have BETTER information about the nature of nature and the universe and we think humanity can do better than Santa for adults.

Do not confuse the separate issue of human rights(the right to believe what you want) which everyone should have, And the separate issue of proving what comes out of your mouth(ON ANY SUBJECT)

To be intellectually brave one has to face their own claims, and be unafraid of having them questioned. Looking for justifications is NOT testing, but merely looking for an excuse to hold a position.

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god" Thomas Jefferson.

 

 

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jesstacia wrote:
Why do athiests and thiests have to argue? You can believe what you want, whether there is a god or no god. but you dont have to try change another's beliefs.

If you can get believers to keep their beliefs out of their politics then you have a point. If we can eliminate all the laws which are founded upon religious beliefs then you have a point.
 

[ul]
[li]There are some obvious ones like prostitution. Why can't a woman sell her body for what it is worth just like athletes do?
[li]Ask Christians why they are against polygamy when there was no problem with it in Judaism but was added to conform to Roman marriage customs?

[li]What are these laws against alcohol, drugs, legal puritanism of all sorts? The FCC seven words excluding pussyfoot. The entire concept of public morality.

[li]Why the foreign policy that supports Christian and Jewish dictatorships over non-Christian and non-Jewish populations? Vietnam support was over the Budhists. Israel support is over the Muslims.

[li]The entire concept of crimes against the state is that of crimes against god.

[/ul]

Pardon but I have not been over this in many years so I don't have all the examples fresh to mind to compose on the fly. There are many more ways that believers have to get out of legislating their beliefs for everyone. Believers keep trying to re-start the 30 years war and know what they are doing.


 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

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www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:
Well, the people of Japan (a great many of them anyway) believe that there are millions of gods. Now I am not a fan of that idea either but they are not trying to force the idea into school curriculum.

Speaking of which, who started the idea that dozens of specialized gods are inferior to a single swiss army knife god? Obviously they have never wasted money on a swiss army knife.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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I argue because

I am an outspoken Atheist for one reason. I grew up in a heavily indoctrinated religious background. Such a background almost destroyed my life, and I only wish someone had been there to show that I was not going insane, when I began to doubt all of the things that had been force fed to me, for all of my life.

I realized that I did not have to live in a perpetual state of guilt and fear. I realized that it was ok to make my own way in the world. I also realized that I was against things like lying, stealing and using people for selfish ends, because I did not and never wanted to be, that type of person. But, it had nothing to do with a god, it had to do with ME. I realized that I did not need a god to arbitrate right and wrong to me.

My point being, I am an open Atheist to lead by example, to try and shine the light of reason to those that are like I once was, trapped in theist backgrounds and theistic mindsets, and demonstrate that there is life after phony religion.

Religion preaches far too much hate and intolerance, in my opinion. I think someone has to stand against it and show that the human race can adapt and survive and better itself without it.

It probably will not happen in my lifetime, but I would like to see humanity evolve past the need for such nonsense and stand on it's own two feet.

Until that time comes, I can only hope that education and reason continue to take a stand against irrational claims.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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jesstacia wrote:Why do

jesstacia wrote:

Why do athiests and thiests have to argue? You can believe what you want, whether there is a god or no god. but you dont have to try change another's beliefs.

 

Because arguing is fun.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Beyond Saving wrote:

jesstacia wrote:

Why do athiests and thiests have to argue? You can believe what you want, whether there is a god or no god. but you dont have to try change another's beliefs.

Because arguing is fun.

Because being right is fun.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Prostitution creates

Prostitution creates competition for the wives of men. Most married women (regardless of religion) would feel insecure of their husband's loyalty to them. If prostitution were made legal in, say, developing countries many women, and even girls would probably become prostitutes for money even though its not always their will. They might have no choice since being a prostitute is one of the most high paid jobs and to live a better lifestyle, they need the maximum amount of money.

 

I dont really understand why polygamy is something Christians are against either.

 

Maybe its because the consequences of drinking too much alcohol and taking too much drugs can lead to disastrous consequences. It was on the news last time, a guy died from consuming too much caffeine. People can do things that they regret when they're drunk. I dont think there are laws that are completely against the comsumption of alcohol and drugs, just something about it being bad to be drunk.

Most crimes against god are actually pretty reasonable. Like stealing, murdering e.t.c. The only crime I have trouble understanding is homosexuality.


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And I have trouble understanding

 

jesstacia wrote:

The only crime I have trouble understanding is homosexuality.

 

why you think consensual sexual proclivity is a crime.  

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


jesstacia
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No, as in i have trouble

No, as in i have trouble understanding why its said to be a crime in the bible.


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jesstacia wrote:No, as in i

jesstacia wrote:

No, as in i have trouble understanding why its said to be a crime in the bible.

 

Well, I'm guessing that in a tribal society, the top tribe was the one with the most people.

 

Hence, being engaged in sexual behaviour that doesn't produce more people = crime.


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jesstacia wrote:
Prostitution creates competition for the wives of men. Most married women (regardless of religion) would feel insecure of their husband's loyalty to them. If prostitution were made legal in, say, developing countries many women, and even girls would probably become prostitutes for money even though its not always their will. They might have no choice since being a prostitute is one of the most high paid jobs and to live a better lifestyle, they need the maximum amount of money.

There is always prostitution. The question is why there are laws against it. So far as the evidence is concerned the only laws which have ever had an effect on prostitution are those which regulate it mainly requiring health certificates and eliminating white slavery as we racists call it because "those chinamen love our white wimmen."

I agree there are many places in the world where prostitution is the best paying job a woman can get. So why are there laws keeping women out of the best paying job they can get?

But please tell me why athletes can sell their bodies or why it is not selling one's body.

Quote:
I dont really understand why polygamy is something Christians are against either.

The Romans didn't like it. It was an oriental custom. I have even read an article in Haaretz of rabbis working to remove the laws against bigamy and return to Judean traditions.

Quote:
Maybe its because the consequences of drinking too much alcohol and taking too much drugs can lead to disastrous consequences. It was on the news last time, a guy died from consuming too much caffeine. People can do things that they regret when they're drunk. I dont think there are laws that are completely against the comsumption of alcohol and drugs, just something about it being bad to be drunk.

By current thinking on health and nutrition (which I think is bullshit) most people die from stuffing their bodies with red meat and starches. BS because that is the hunter-gatherer diet is that and fruits. Grains as in wheat and rice only entered the human diet as a major component about 6-8000 years ago and really screwed up people until modern times.

Factually there are more deaths per capita from prescription drugs than from illegal drugs. There are deaths from aspirin. There are no known deaths from marijuana. Even alcohol deaths are extremely rare when "taken as directed" and as directed is the social wisdom. In fact mixing drugs and alcohol can be safe if it pills then drink not drink then pills. You can stop drinking or fall asleep before the former becomes lethal. The latter is a drunk sealing his fate.

In any event if there are social issues they need be addressed rationally not be rednecks speaking for their retarded deity.

Quote:
Most crimes against god are actually pretty reasonable. Like stealing, murdering e.t.c. The only crime I have trouble understanding is homosexuality.

What might be a crime against god? Excuse but there is no god. One has to ask what kind of fool thinks a god would care in the least about human affairs when in fact humans can deal with theft and murder without any "superior" advice. If someone steals from me he is advised to be more concerned about what will happen to him when I find him than what might happen in the great by and by after he is dead.

As for homosexualty, I am all in favor of it. It improves my odds.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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jesstacia wrote:
No, as in i have trouble understanding why its said to be a crime in the bible.

Keep in mind the rule book was not written for the masses who were illiterate. These were written so the Maccabes who declared themselves to be priests had a basis for their tyranny. The entire point of Mosaic law is to make everyone a sinner punishable by death.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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oh boy...i'm gonna get shit from the militants on this one

In a few cases, very few.

I actually think religion has helped people. Atheism could have done the same thing, but due to the circumstances or mental contraints, or merely lack of time, religion took hold and actually did some good.

i wonder if atheism is too fast a change for some people, and if it can be gradually introduced, as sort of a gradual therapy.

even Karl Marx stated that communism can never be brought about by a coup, but that it works best as a gradual evolution, and that it is inevitable. maybe thats why true communism has never existed yet, and it has never really worked yet.

 

Just a thought, not a position.

 

but I do see your point, about imposing views on others.

 

 

I don't know which I doubt more.
the existence of god, or an open minded atheist.


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Atheism is not a therapy.It

Atheism is not a therapy.

It can only have that effect in some sense when it is the religious belief is what is causing the problem, which definitely does occur, as when a dedicated believer suffers some health or other major disaster in their life. "Why me, God, what have I done to deserve this??"

Showing that there is no God, and such things are due to the vagaries of chance and circumstance, IOW, not their fault, can definitely help.

Not saying that religion can't offer some comfort, that is a major reason why it is so popular, especially in more impoverished societies.

In such societies, religious attitudes can be very harmful to those who are afflicted with bad fortune, especially if they suffer some birth or hereditary defect. Inspired by religious dogma, people tend to see that as a sign that they must be inherently evil in some way, maybe some sin they committed in a "past life", to deserve being so treated by God. They are then shunned by society. This is unfortunately common in parts of Africa.

But when people do have major bad luck, it can be a problem, depending on the leaning of the individual to really look for a reason.

In most cases, a real positive therapy, from trained professionals in the field, would be more appropriate.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

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 'proving', 'logic' and ego?

 'proving', 'logic' and ego?


ex-minister
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natural wrote:Why do theists

natural wrote:

Why do theists have to mix their religion into their politics?

And by the way, why not argue?

And another thing: Why are you telling us that we don't have to try to change another's beliefs?  You don't have to tell us that, either. But you did.

 

Brilliant. Thanks for the laugh.

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

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Welcome to the

Welcome to the forum.

jesstacia wrote:

Why do athiests and thiests have to argue? You can believe what you want, whether there is a god or no god. but you dont have to try change another's beliefs.

Why are you arguing?

Why is the sky blue?

Why doesn't my food from Taco Bell stay warm?

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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jesstacia wrote: Why do

jesstacia wrote:
Why do athiests and thiests have to argue?

For the same reason people whine about it; there are things surrounding the issue that bother them.

jesstacia wrote:
You can believe what you want, whether there is a god or no god.

IOW, blah, blah....blah, blah, I'm filling up the screen with more characters because the more words, the better it'll look...

jesstacia wrote:
... but you dont have to try change another's beliefs.

Ummm...has it ever occurred to you what religion is used for?

It's to permanently tattoo a set of arbitrary 'beliefs' on the inside of peoples' eyeballs, as a 'thought stopper' and 'conversation stopper'.

IOW, "His way, or the Hellway".

 

Theists are willing sado/masochist slaves to their imagined 'master', and are complicit in a unified effort to attempt to coerce and manipulate others into a similar dysfuntional codependency.

Misery loves company. And it hates to see others living well without it.

It was already pointed out that religion was never about 'love'. It was about 'control'. You cannot have 'control' over freethinkers, in any way that's similar to 'sheeple'.

Any discussion with anyone who doesn't understand, or acknowledge these issues, is simply not qualified to discuss on the topic, about the severe consequences and far reaching ramifications of dogmatic automaton thinking, and should expect nothing less than being talked down to.

 

 

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

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butterbattle wrote:Why

butterbattle wrote:

Why doesn't my food from Taco Bell stay warm?

 

I haven't had Taco Bell in years... last time I had it... let's just say it came out steaming warm.  And that's about as much value as I put on the OP, as much as a bean burrito that has fully passed through the digestive system.

mmmm fries supreme....

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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jesstacia wrote:No, as in i

jesstacia wrote:

No, as in i have trouble understanding why its said to be a crime in the bible.

Homophobes are the most vocal against homosexuality because they are afraid to find out they are homosexual. 

Moses was gay.

Also how do you make yourself a hero? Create a villain.

 

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


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jesstacia wrote:Why do

jesstacia wrote:

Why do atheists and theists have to argue?

The group ringing doorbells are not atheists.

The theists of this world want to impose their morals and views on others through civil laws such that they can easier comply to the ancient rules created thousands of years ago for goat herders and tribal societies.

If laws were passed that made it a crime to not follow all 10 commandments explicitly they could systematically eliminate all dissent and non-compliance, at least open non-compliance.

Many theists desire a Christian nation where all laws are based on the Jesus and the creative writers of the 1st and 2nd century. Somehow they feel it's their responsibility to force beliefs on others. This view comes from the likes of St Ambrose and St Augustine that held it was fine to torture someone to get them to accept their true beliefs.

Yet, the Jesus portrayed in the Gospels told his disciples to walk away from any town or village that refused them and knock the dust off their feet.

So knock the dust off your feet and go to the next town or country or planet. Then you would be following the Jesus.

But no, they want to make their morals as laws.

This is not freedom and has no place in the US.

If you are a Christian and don't want to marry another person of the same sex you don't have to. No law needed.

If you are a Christian and don't want to drink or buy alcohol you don't have to. No laws needed.

If you are a Christian and don't want to go into strip clubs you don't have to. No laws needed.

If you are a Christian and don't want an abortion don't get one. No laws needed.

If you are a Christian and don't want to gamble you don't have to. No laws needed.

If you are a Christian and don't want to watch porn you don't have to. No laws needed.

If you are a Christian and don't  want to accept evolution you don't have to. No laws needed. If you think that creationism deserves to be a public school topic then so does Enki and the New World Order how the Sumerians believed the Universe was created. And the Aztec beliefs and every other belief that has zero support from science on how the Earth and Universe got here.

 

Instead of just avoiding activities like these the do gooder believers pass laws that ban them.

How is that not forcing your beliefs on others??

 

If you are a Christian why do you get to have an oath in the pledge of allegiance in the US to your god pushed on others?

If you are a Christian why do you get to have the name of your imaginary friend on the money in the US. I like the Sumerian god Enki better, I think it should be in Enki we trust, all Yahweh believers pay in gold.

 

 

jesstacia wrote:

You can believe what you want, whether there is a god or no god. but you don't have to try change another's beliefs.

Exactly and that is what believers do, they try to change everyone's beliefs to be theirs or have laws passed to make their beliefs the law.

So, you want all theists to stop trying to implement their morality on others right?

Great. There are many puritnaical laws you need to have rescinded and repealed in the US. Anonymouse listed a few you can start petition drives to change and I listed a few above.

All laws that prosecute people for victimless crimes should be repealed immediately.

The Jesus said you were your brother's keeper but he never said to make laws to implement his ideas. Instead he said render Caesar that which is his.

 

 

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pauljohntheskeptic wrote:The

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

The Jesus said you were your brother's keeper but he never said to make laws to implement his ideas. Instead he said render Caesar that which is his.

 

Jesus also said My Kingdom Is Not Of This World. Wish a few Christian would get a clue on that one. He was not about nation under god building. Pie in the sky sweet by and by. This world belongs to the devil and us atheist.   

Leave it as you found it.

 

 

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


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Ktulu wrote:butterbattle

Ktulu wrote:

butterbattle wrote:

Why doesn't my food from Taco Bell stay warm? 

I haven't had Taco Bell in years... last time I had it... let's just say it came out steaming warm.  And that's about as much value as I put on the OP, as much as a bean burrito that has fully passed through the digestive system.

mmmm fries supreme....

Ah, yes, when they give it to me, it's always nice and warm. I'm questioning why it doesn't stay warm when I drive somewhere or something. Why does it have to cool down?   

(Yes, I know why, you silly, silly people that might think I'm serious.)  

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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butterbattle wrote:Ktulu

butterbattle wrote:

Ktulu wrote:

butterbattle wrote:

Why doesn't my food from Taco Bell stay warm? 

I haven't had Taco Bell in years... last time I had it... let's just say it came out steaming warm.  And that's about as much value as I put on the OP, as much as a bean burrito that has fully passed through the digestive system.

mmmm fries supreme....

Ah, yes, when they give it to me, it's always nice and warm. I'm questioning why it doesn't stay warm when I drive somewhere or something. Why does it have to cool down?   

(Yes, I know why, you silly, silly people that might think I'm serious.)  

 

You need to snarf it down before you leave the parking lot!!!

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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jesstacia wrote:Why do

jesstacia wrote:

Why do athiests and thiests have to argue? You can believe what you want, whether there is a god or no god. but you dont have to try change another's beliefs.

OP, you'll notice that the best source for reasons to argue against theism, is often from the 'ex' theists, themselves. Some of them were not only 'hard core' church goers, some of them were ministers, preachers, etc.

It's difficult to ignore the 'reasons to argue' they provide.

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

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ex-minister

ex-minister wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

The Jesus said you were your brother's keeper but he never said to make laws to implement his ideas. Instead he said render Caesar that which is his.

 

Jesus also said My Kingdom Is Not Of This World. Wish a few Christian would get a clue on that one. He was not about nation under god building. Pie in the sky sweet by and by. This world belongs to the devil and us atheist.   

Leave it as you found it.

 

 

 

Jesus admitted with this statement he was an extraterrestrial in other words, not a god just an alien. Clearly out of communication with the leader as he made several commitments as to returning and did not come back during their generation. Apparently the leader of his extraterrestrial group failed to inform the Jesus of plan B.

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"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

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ex-minister wrote:
Jesus also said My Kingdom Is Not Of This World.

You know you are dealing with a fruitcake when he claims to be the head of a hereditary monoarchy.

Am I the only one who finds this use of the term kingdom to be incongruous?

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

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jesstacia wrote:Why do

jesstacia wrote:

Why do athiests and thiests have to argue? You can believe what you want, whether there is a god or no god. but you dont have to try change another's beliefs.

Why are there teachers?  Teachers are paid to change our beliefs, in fact they help form our beliefs.  You have a problem with free teachers?

 

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The problem with these

The problem with these 'appeals', is that they are appeals to emotions, and not to reasoning and logic.

It's beyond sophomoric to stand back and not see the clear picture of the ramifications of letting people indulge in choosing what the 'truth' is, when that truth is a storybook which they have in their one hand as they're waving it as a gavel into lecturing others that their behaviours are 'evil', because of the storybook.

Not 1 single theist, IME, has ever been able to explain 'why' things are 'sin', or 'evil', other than to parrot 'because, God says so'.

IOW, they can't rationally explain the justification for the verdict, they just knee jerk and regurgitate edicts.

And they get upset that they are characterized as irrational, when they've done nothing to the contrary.

Duhhh....

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

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redneF wrote:
It's beyond sophomoric to stand back and not see the clear picture of the ramifications of letting people indulge in choosing what the 'truth' is,

 

Now that you mention it, in what other subject is there a pleading for this indulgence? I can only think of it when believers are butt up against reality and can't think of another way out.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

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Why argue?

 

I think that jesstacia has a valid point. There is no point in arguing because you cannot change a “believer’s” point of view by rational arguments. If they were rational, they wouldn’t be believers in the first place. There is no rational argument that you can use with a baby that will keep him from soiling his diaper. He just doesn’t understand.
 It is probably best not to argue with them, but to merely point out the fact that, other than circular arguments, they have no evidence that can support their position, and just leave them alone. By circular arguments I mean the sort of, “I believe there is a god because the Bible says it.” And, “I know the Bible is correct because it is the divinely inspired word of God.” 
 We should only argue with theists when their beliefs and actions cause harm to others.

 


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Galileo wrote: I think that

Galileo wrote:

 

I think that jesstacia has a valid point. There is no point in arguing because you cannot change a “believer’s” point of view by rational arguments. If they were rational, they wouldn’t be believers in the first place. There is no rational argument that you can use with a baby that will keep him from soiling his diaper. He just doesn’t understand.
 It is probably best not to argue with them, but to merely point out the fact that, other than circular arguments, they have no evidence that can support their position, and just leave them alone. By circular arguments I mean the sort of, “I believe there is a god because the Bible says it.” And, “I know the Bible is correct because it is the divinely inspired word of God.” 
 We should only argue with theists when their beliefs and actions cause harm to others.

 

It entirely depends how 'solid' their belief is. People do change their beliefs, including those who have been deeply into it. Most may not, but enough do, and are typically grateful to us for helping them shake off the irrational yoke.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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Ktulu wrote:butterbattle

Ktulu wrote:

butterbattle wrote:

Why doesn't my food from Taco Bell stay warm?

 

I haven't had Taco Bell in years... last time I had it... let's just say it came out steaming warm.  And that's about as much value as I put on the OP, as much as a bean burrito that has fully passed through the digestive system.

mmmm fries supreme....

 

AW SHIT.........

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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A better question might be,

A better question might be, is why when the seven deadly sins are greed, gluttony, sloth, lust, envy, wrath and pride, am I not FUCKING DEAD yet? I've committed every one of those except envy.

I am disappoint.

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Kapkao wrote:A better

Kapkao wrote:

A better question might be, is why when the seven deadly sins are greed, gluttony, sloth, lust, envy, wrath and pride, am I not FUCKING DEAD yet? I've committed every one of those except envy.

I am disappoint.

 

I'm sure envy is off in the corner envying all the other deadly sins and wondering why it isn't included. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Kapkao wrote:A better

Kapkao wrote:

A better question might be, is why when the seven deadly sins are greed, gluttony, sloth, lust, envy, wrath and pride, am I not FUCKING DEAD yet? I've committed every one of those except envy.

I am disappoint.

I'm in envy of your sinnery.  Oh shit, I'm doomed.

(Wondering why the mother of all unforgivable sins - blasphemy against the sky daddy - is absent from the deadly sins)

I'm going to hell.


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pauljohntheskeptic wrote:But

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

But no, they want to make their morals as laws.

This is not freedom and has no place in the US.

If you are a Christian and don't want to marry another person of the same sex you don't have to. No law needed.

If you are a Christian and don't want to drink or buy alcohol you don't have to. No laws needed.

If you are a Christian and don't want to go into strip clubs you don't have to. No laws needed.

If you are a Christian and don't want an abortion don't get one. No laws needed.

If you are a Christian and don't want to gamble you don't have to. No laws needed.

If you are a Christian and don't want to watch porn you don't have to. No laws needed.

If you are a Christian and don't  want to accept evolution you don't have to. No laws needed. If you think that creationism deserves to be a public school topic then so does Enki and the New World Order how the Sumerians believed the Universe was created. And the Aztec beliefs and every other belief that has zero support from science on how the Earth and Universe got here.

 

Instead of just avoiding activities like these the do gooder believers pass laws that ban them.

How is that not forcing your beliefs on others??

 

If you are a Christian why do you get to have an oath in the pledge of allegiance in the US to your god pushed on others?

If you are a Christian why do you get to have the name of your imaginary friend on the money in the US. I like the Sumerian god Enki better, I think it should be in Enki we trust, all Yahweh believers pay in gold.

 

 

jesstacia wrote:

You can believe what you want, whether there is a god or no god. but you don't have to try change another's beliefs.

Exactly and that is what believers do, they try to change everyone's beliefs to be theirs or have laws passed to make their beliefs the law.

So, you want all theists to stop trying to implement their morality on others right?

Great. There are many puritnaical laws you need to have rescinded and repealed in the US. Anonymouse listed a few you can start petition drives to change and I listed a few above.

All laws that prosecute people for victimless crimes should be repealed immediately.

The Jesus said you were your brother's keeper but he never said to make laws to implement his ideas. Instead he said render Caesar that which is his.

 

 

Well said JohnPaul the Skeptic. I wholeheartedly agree.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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jesstacia wrote:Why do

jesstacia wrote:

Why do athiests and thiests have to argue? You can believe what you want, whether there is a god or no god. but you dont have to try change another's beliefs.

The day theists stop shoving their imaginary friends in everyone's face and stop playing politics and world domination games is the day I can ignore them. Until then they are a clear and present danger to myself and those I care about, and must be battled to the last breath.

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cj wrote:butterbattle

cj wrote:

butterbattle wrote:

Ktulu wrote:

butterbattle wrote:

Why doesn't my food from Taco Bell stay warm? 

I haven't had Taco Bell in years... last time I had it... let's just say it came out steaming warm.  And that's about as much value as I put on the OP, as much as a bean burrito that has fully passed through the digestive system.

mmmm fries supreme....

Ah, yes, when they give it to me, it's always nice and warm. I'm questioning why it doesn't stay warm when I drive somewhere or something. Why does it have to cool down?   

(Yes, I know why, you silly, silly people that might think I'm serious.)  

 

You need to snarf it down before you leave the parking lot!!!

 

 

So that's why Ktulu got diarrhea after eating at TBell...

 

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Beyond Saving wrote:Kapkao

Beyond Saving wrote:

Kapkao wrote:

A better question might be, is why when the seven deadly sins are greed, gluttony, sloth, lust, envy, wrath and pride, am I not FUCKING DEAD yet? I've committed every one of those except envy.

I am disappoint.

 

I'm sure envy is off in the corner envying all the other deadly sins and wondering why it isn't included. 

The why being that I really don't care what other people have, and I never have. I do have some faint memories of being resentful being of having to share with other kids who were neither my friends or close family, but doesn't that fall under greed and being a selfish asshole?

 

EternalDamnation wrote:

Kapkao wrote:

A better question might be, is why when the seven deadly sins are greed, gluttony, sloth, lust, envy, wrath and pride, am I not FUCKING DEAD yet? I've committed every one of those except envy.

I am disappoint.

I'm in envy of your sinnery.  Oh shit, I'm doomed.

(Wondering why the mother of all unforgivable sins - blasphemy against the sky daddy - is absent from the deadly sins)

Because it isn't deadly? No, it's just unforgivable.

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Galileo wrote:
I think that jesstacia has a valid point. There is no point in arguing because you cannot change a “believer’s” point of view by rational arguments. If they were rational, they wouldn’t be believers in the first place. There is no rational argument that you can use with a baby that will keep him from soiling his diaper. He just doesn’t understand.


"If you could reason with believers there wouldn't be any." -- Dr. House
Quote:
It is probably best not to argue with them, but to merely point out the fact that, other than circular arguments, they have no evidence that can support their position, and just leave them alone. By circular arguments I mean the sort of, “I believe there is a god because the Bible says it.” And, “I know the Bible is correct because it is the divinely inspired word of God.” 
We should only argue with theists when their beliefs and actions cause harm to others.

While I agree we should not knock on doors and hand out atheist tracts (unless that will get them to stop) their beliefs should not be treated differently from any other superstitions. The difference between an apparition of a ghost and seeing a dead virgin is what? Are not both ghosts? The latter tends to be chattier but she is a woman after all.

Kali, a sacred tree and Yahweh are not intrinsicly different.

If a tree will punish breaking taboos how does that differ from "God will get you for that."

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

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People who think irrational

People who think irrational theists can't become rational haven't had much experience debating religion with theists. Or they just suck at it.

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Vastet wrote:People who

Vastet wrote:
People who think irrational theists can't become rational haven't had much experience debating religion with theists. Or they just suck at it.

This is true. I've never had problems getting any reasonable people to notice the non sequiturs in theistic dogmas and teachings.

Here's a survey taken before and after a Hitchens debate on the feelings of whether the RC church is a 'good' force in the world. The difference is dramatic.

 

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

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redneF wrote:Vastet

redneF wrote:

Vastet wrote:
People who think irrational theists can't become rational haven't had much experience debating religion with theists. Or they just suck at it.

This is true. I've never had problems getting any reasonable people to notice the non sequiturs in theistic dogmas and teachings.

Here's a survey taken before and after a Hitchens debate on the feelings of whether the RC church is a 'good' force in the world. The difference is dramatic.

Is there a text-only version of that survey?

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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er magnaccia

A_nony_mouse wrote:
jesstacia wrote:
Prostitution creates competition for the wives of men. Most married women (regardless of religion) would feel insecure of their husband's loyalty to them. If prostitution were made legal in, say, developing countries many women, and even girls would probably become prostitutes for money even though its not always their will. They might have no choice since being a prostitute is one of the most high paid jobs and to live a better lifestyle, they need the maximum amount of money.

There is always prostitution. The question is why there are laws against it. So far as the evidence is concerned the only laws which have ever had an effect on prostitution are those which regulate it mainly requiring health certificates and eliminating white slavery as we racists call it because "those chinamen love our white wimmen."

I agree there are many places in the world where prostitution is the best paying job a woman can get. So why are there laws keeping women out of the best paying job they can get?

But please tell me why athletes can sell their bodies or why it is not selling one's body.


This titillates me. "There is always prostitution" is until now probably true, but if there are reasons for prostitution (if it's causal) then it could end too.
I don't care about laws, I don't care about forced prostituion here because I think I suppose we can all agree that forcing somebody to do something is not so right.

So what about who chooses to do prostitution? If it is a well paying job, then it's right to go for it? Well sorry I disagree. I don't think it's a great thing to do. A job is useful for the comunity. Build something, study something else, go cure cancer and aids. Prostitution does nothing.

Please do this thing for me, go to read some interview, read what prostitutes (anywhere: singapore, new york, scotland, even arctic if there are some) think about their job and the world in general. I never found anything positive.

I could care to elaborate more, for example athletes vs prostitutes "selling" their bodies, but I require a first answer to this.
Keep in mind I'm not telling "IM RIGHT YOUR WRONG", I'm just exposing what I found. If I'm here it's exactly to discuss about it.


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Not everyone can cure

Not everyone can cure cancer. As yet, despite throwing billions of dollars at it and millions of people, it's still there.
Not everyone can get a well paying job at the drop of a hat, and whether people like it or not, prostitution contributes to society. It helps many single mothers pay the bills. And as long as it's done in a safe environment there's little more risk than working at a fast food restaurant. I thought this was a free and capitalist society.

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